From:	IN%"slvnhld@ix.netcom.com"  "OBi Fox"  1-NOV-2003 11:26:47.60
To:	IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: rotation grazing

Andy,
I have watched, for many years, the movement of beef cattle and some groups
of horses in various pastures. (Robin may well call my observations
"driver's seat philosophy" as it is mostly the result of living 40-75 miles
out of town and getting to know the "neighbors").

The areas I see are primarily "high desert" (Colorado) with an average grass
coverage supporting 1 cow/calf unit per 10 acres, with water supplies from
livestock wells.  While I have noted a certain "rotation", the patterns of
grazed areas mostly extend out from the water source.  The standard practice
is to heavily stock a pasture (160-640 acres), wait until the cattle have
grazed the entire area, and then move them to new pasture.  In most cases,
the patterns I see in the available grass would indicate that it is more of
a process of gradually moving further from the water source toward the
perimeter.

When I spoke of the natural rotation of highlands as "unique" I probably
should have better described the behaviour as "nomadic".  Unlike the other
cattle I watch, the Highlands stay in one area for a few days and then,
usually in the morning, the entire herd just up and walks to an entirely
different area of the ranch.  The bull (left with the herd) was usually the
one that started them going.  Most cattle I see tend to graze their way
along.  They will take short walks, following along with the group, but they
don't travel far before they will at least pause and graze.  Probably the
oddest thing about the Highlands was that there was little to no grazing
along the way - the entire troup just marched to a new area and then settled
in again.

A friend of mine moved back to the family ranch last year.  I have greatly
enjoyed hearing of her experiences as the ranch is about 15,000 acres in the
sandhills of Nebraska - land which was totally decimated during the dust
bowl.  Her family has been involved in formalized rotational grazing for
many years with excellent results.  They were not able to achieve the same
level of land reclaimation when the herd was allowed free range as they
accomplished once they cross-fenced and managed a formalized "rotation".
Based on the work that's been done, I would venture to say that domestic
cattle
retain at least some of the innate rotation but that it can be improved and
directed
with grazing programs which take it into account. (If you're interested,
there's a nice
section on the improvements on both land quality and water resource
management in
the San Luis Valley in Colorado in: The Last Ranch: A Colorado Community and
the Coming Desert by Sam Bingham (Harvest books, 1997))

I have also seen the elk herd living in the Flourissant Fossil Beds
(National Monument and protected wildlife area) follow a pattern of
rotation.  I stumbled upon this quite by accident as I came thru the area at
around 11 pm only to find the entire herd spread across a small valley -
many of them standing in the road (on which I was travelling at a rather
high rate of speed at the time<g>).  In speaking to the "locals" - they
report that this herd moves in a counter-clockwise direction over an area
approximately 20 miles square and that the movement is extremely consistent
and takes about 1 month to complete.  I usually encountered them in the
original area during the "dark of the moon".

Rotational grazing is, and has been, an area of applied ethology which has
always interested me.  In speaking to ranchers who do not use the system,
the argument I have most frequently been given against the methodology is
that it would be too "labor-intensive" - requiring the movement of stock
every 3-4 days.  Interestingly, the folks I know who use the system report
that it takes very little "labor" once the program is established.  Most
just drive to the gate into the next field and honk the horn<g>.  The cattle
are reported to come running - much like a stampede - but that they are
absolutely silent as they do this and immediately set to grazing the new
pasture (exhibiting no stress in the change of location) - quite a contrast
to the behaviour I observe in those being rounded up and trucked to a new
area.

OBi Fox


From:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin"  1-NOV-2003 11:56:49.76
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Info on Torn Dew Claws

Does anyone have access to a document on dew claw removal that is of a
similar type to the information posted by Andreas on tail docking of dogs?

(I thought that the document on tail docking was quite good - and in fact, I
may use it next semester in my animal welfare course, but I did wonder about
the section that dismissed phantom pain as an issue.  There was no mention
of work on neuroma formation in dogs that had been tail docked.  Has there
been no research on whether or not neuromas form in these dogs?)

The reason I am asking about dew claw removal is that I had never realized
how common the practice is in dogs.  And I have to acknowledge that my
knowledge of dogs is almost totally "practical" - and mostly from my youth.
My family has probably had some 30 to 40 dogs during my lifetime - and these
were all farm and/or hunting dogs of a variety of breed combinations with
Collie and Shepard being the most common.  Few (maybe 8 to 10) were
"purebred" and these were Border Collies, Beagles and a couple of Blue Tick
Hounds.  None of these were "house" dogs.  They all stayed outside and were
basically totally "free ranging" dogs. i.e., almost never tied or confined.
Until maybe some 15 years ago, these dogs primarily ate table scraps and
whatever they could scavenge.  They were expected to be working dogs meaning
that when my brothers and I were younger they were used for hunting, and a
number of them were also used to work cattle.  Basically all of them were
also expected to provide sentential duty, and if necessary to fend off
predators (on domestic fowl, livestock, etc.) such as raccoons, skunks,
opossums, mink, and feral/stray dogs.  The terrain over which these dogs
ranged included riverbottom swamp land, pasture land, and upland woodland.
Some of the areas had dense undergrowth of vines, briars, etc.  But with the
exception of some limestone outcropping and stream gravel, there were few
stones or large rocks.  Some of the dogs survived fights that were near life
threatening from the cuts they received.  With the exception of rabies shots
and broken limbs, these dogs did not have contact with a veterinarian.

Despite a vigorous life in rather rough terrain, to my knowledge, none of
these dogs ever had a dew claw that was torn.  Possibly it did happen and
was not noticed, but I would think that it was very unlikely that it
happened without being recognized.  Nor do I remember any of the dogs of my
friends, neighbors, etc. whose dew claws were torn off.  And some of these
dogs were used for activities that I would think very physically demanding
for dew claws including night "fox hunting" (this involved going into the
woodland at night, usually building a fire and then sitting and listening to
the sounds of the dogs as they chased a fox, which to my knowledge was never
caught.)

Yet, yesterday when I asked a class of undergrads if they had knowledge of
dew claws being torn, well over half of the students had first hand
knowledge of a dog that had had a dew claw that became torn.  Several of the
students have had experience working in a vet clinic which of course
accounts for some of the numbers - and I do not at all believe my class was
a random sample.  But I nevertheless was quite surprised at the number of
students who had owned dogs that had experienced a torn dew claw.  In one
instance it involved a dog simply playing and running in the grass around
the owner's house.

Is the tearing of dew claws more common today than it was in the past?  Is
it breed related?  Is it diet related?  Is somehow the skin of dogs that are
house-bound or kept in confinement more likely to tear than the skin of dogs
that live under "free range" conditions?  Do the dew claws of wild canids
tear?

W.R. Stricklin


From:	IN%"mary@fusiondesignuk.com"  "mary doran"  1-NOV-2003 15:39:19.44
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Mary and Andy

Just a correctoin Jo.
It was not me who said the above quote , as claimed.

Thanks Mary



He who does not know and 'asks' is a fool for five minutes.
He who does not know and does NOT ask....is a fool forever.

From:	IN%"mary@fusiondesignuk.com"  "mary doran"  1-NOV-2003 15:46:18.01
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Info on Torn Dew Claws

I do not beleive such a study exists Ray.
I have been looking for one myself for a few months, and it was my
realisation that there is  lack of data in this area that led me to send my
original post on this topic and also to begin collecting data for a study
myself.

Mary


He who does not know and 'asks' is a fool for five minutes.
He who does not know and does NOT ask....is a fool forever.

From:	IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol"  2-NOV-2003 15:59:59.06
To:	IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com"  "John Burchard", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology list"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: humans including animals in their social structures

John
The positives that relate to desexing companion animals are mainly, as you pointed out, to try to counteract the irresponsibility of some pet owners who allow their male pets to roam and impregnate females, or allow their own female pets to become pregnant repeatedly and then, as you rightly point out, disposal of the offspring becomes an issue.  We cannot rely on owners being responsible - that's demonstrated by the numbers of animals found abandoned - I don't know the exact figures, but thousands of pets are abandoned each year.  The quality of the lives and their ultimate 'disposal' are an ethical issue.  Surely it is better (ethically) to prevent pregnancies than to face to deal with euthanasing unwanted pets.  There is a REAL problem here with feral dogs and cats that decimate the native fauna, as well as attack and mutilate/kill livestock too.  That must be an ethical issue.

As for desexing livestock - it may be easy to control the movements and pregnancies of intensively farmed animals, but it is impossible to do so for extensive animals - and even if you control your males, it's not to say your neighbour does.  Not only does this lead to unwanted pregnancies (and the awful consequences of calves being born in feedlots or onboard ships during live export), but also the spread of sexually transmitted diseases and the consequences that they have.  Then of course there is the issue of working with/handling entire males (you know the adage - "never trust an entire male - of any species"!!).  All of these things add up to very good reasons (other than commercial ones) for desexing.

Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences 
Department of Primary Industries

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com] 
Sent:	Saturday, 1 November 2003 1:25 AM
To:	Applied ethology list
Subject:	Re: humans including animals in their social structures

"Petherick, Carol" wrote:

> Desexing is less of an ethical issue because it is not done for mainly/purely cosmetic reasons; it is less of an ethical issue because there are many positive aspects to desexing and the positives are believed (by those who make the rules) to outweigh the negatives.

I am surprised at this.  Desexing is done for reasons of convenience, to prevent
reproductive activity in herds of livestock, to render meat animals more
amenable to mass production systems such as feedlots, and in heavily
propagandized form in the U.S. ostensibly to combat the "pet overpopulation
problem" which on closer examination turns out to be a "disposable pet" problem,
as part of an effort to shift the onus of responsibility for abandoned pets
from their owners (where IMO it ought to reside) to breeders, any and all
breeders, as part of a larger campaign whose publicly stated objective is the
complete elimination of domestic animals.  Desexing of dogs as young as six
weeks is heavily promoted and has become almost commonplace.  It is constantly
stated that early desexing has "no effect" on the animal, although it does in
fact affect their growth and adult conformation significantly, especially in
males, by delaying the closure of the epiphyses.

Early desexing is supported by many breeders for the sake of control over their
genetic material.  The effect on a breed population's genetic structure of
removing from consideration, as possible reproducers, of the vast majority of
animals at an age when their potential can only be guessed at, has not so far
received the attention that IMHO it deserves.  Many breeders claim to be able to
determine, at birth or shortly thereafter, which puppies are "show quality" and
which are "pet quality" and therefore unworthy of reproduction.  As a breeder of
performance-tested animals I certainly cannot do that.  You don't in fact know
what you have until the animal is several years old - durability being one of
the major selection criteria <G> - and it is therefore of prime importance that
as many as possible of each generation remain intact as potential producers, and
are tested in actual performance.  It is not really difficult to prevent
unwanted reproduction, if you are paying the least attention, and I therefore
follow the Scandinavian (etc.) practice of desexing an animal only in case of
dire medical necessity (pyometra or testicular cancer, both of which have
fortunately been very rare in my experience).

At least in the context of pet or companion animals, the alleged health benefits
of desexing seem to be largely illusory.  Desexing makes some conditions less
likely - a castrated male cannot develop testicular cancer - and other
conditions (e.g. bone cancers) more likely so the net overall "health benefit"
is practically nil.  According to the studies I have seen, desexed female dogs
(but not males) may apparently live slightly longer than intact ones, but not in
better health.  Desexing seems if anything slightly to reduce the longevity of
males.

I fail to see why reasons of convenience, or of commercial profitability, should
have a higher moral status than "mainly/purely cosmetic" ones?  I might grant
them a higher *practical* status, but not a higher *ethical* one?

John
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com 

********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
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From:	IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz"  "John R Lane"  2-NOV-2003 22:11:45.83
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	pre pubescent speying and neutering

FROM JOHN BURCHARD:  It is constantly stated that early desexing has "no effect" on the animal, although it does in
fact affect their growth and adult conformation significantly, especially in males, by delaying the closure of the epiphyses.

Hi John,
           Unless I am misunderstanding you or the following report then the following report on studies done and quoted in this area appears to be in conflict with the above statement from your self. See the part relating to early veterinary anxieties re growth concerns and the answer from the study results listed lower.

 http://www.ivis.org/advances/Concannon/olson/chapter_frm.asp?LA=1

Would you please comment on this and if there is a conflict give me references to studies that show your statement to be correct? I would indeed like to investigate this apparant conflict further for my own benifit.

Regards John L.
New Zealand

From:	IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk"  "R. Rodd"  3-NOV-2003 04:34:16.30
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology list"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: humans including animals in their social structures

On Mon, 3 Nov 2003, Petherick, Carol wrote:

> you rightly point out, disposal of the offspring becomes an issue.  We
> cannot rely on owners being responsible - that's demonstrated by the
> numbers of animals found abandoned - I don't know the exact figures, but
> thousands of pets are abandoned each year.  The quality of the lives and
> their ultimate 'disposal' are an ethical issue.  Surely it is better
> (ethically) to prevent pregnancies than to face to deal with euthanasing
> unwanted pets.
Here in the UK some animal welfare charities have records stretching back
into the early 20th century and it is very noticeable that before
neutering became commonplace they were killing huge numbers of kittens
every spring - something that simply does not happen now. 

 ----------------------------------------
Rosemary Rodd <rr25@cam.ac.uk> 
Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre
Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA          01223 335029



From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger"  3-NOV-2003 09:33:00.19
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Info on Torn Dew Claws

You wrote:
Does anyone have access to a document on dew claw removal that is of a 
similar type to the information posted by Andreas on tail docking of dogs?  
(I thought that the document on tail docking was quite good - and in fact, I 
may use it next semester in my animal welfare course, but I did wonder about 
the section that dismissed phantom pain as an issue.  There was no mention 
of work on neuroma formation in dogs that had been tail docked.  Has there 
been no research on whether or not neuromas form in these dogs?)
==========anyone who has info Dr. Stricklin wants please post publicly 
because I am also interested in phantom pain.

Despite a vigorous life in rather rough terrain, to my knowledge, none of 
these dogs ever had a dew claw that was torn.  Possibly it did happen and 
was not noticed, but I would think that it was very unlikely that it 
happened without being recognized.  Nor do I remember any of the dogs of my 
friends, neighbors, etc. whose dew claws were torn off.  And some of these 
dogs were used for activities that I would think very physically demanding 
for dew claws including night "fox hunting" (this involved going into the 
woodland at night, usually building a fire and then sitting and listening to 
the sounds of the dogs as they chased a fox, which to my knowledge was never 
caught.)

(SNIP)
But I nevertheless was quite surprised at the number of students who had 
owned dogs that had experienced a torn dew claw.  In one instance it 
involved a dog simply playing and running in the grass around the owner's 
house.  Is the tearing of dew claws more common today than it was in the 
past?  Is
it breed related?  Is it diet related?  Is somehow the skin of dogs that are 
house-bound or kept in confinement more likely to tear than the skin of dogs 
that live under "free range" conditions?  Do the dew claws of wild canids 
tear?

========these questions would make an interesting survey study of small 
animal veterinarians and the histories of dogs they keep.  And you raise a 
fascinating point of free dogs vs. "confined"  dogs.

I've never considered my own dogs as confined, since they are outside as 
much as they wish--but certainly not free-ranging.  One dog I had--my 
favorite--was a German Shepherd/Collie cross who lived until age 17 until 
she could no longer walk.  Jackie and I had what I considered a partnership: 
  she adapted to my world in the house, and I adapted to her world outside 
in the woods where she could be a "real dog".

Except that I gave her a tennis ball when she was a pup which she never let 
out of her sight--her drive to chase seemed inexhaustible.  She wore me out 
throwing it for her but I was never successful wearing her out for bedtime 
:)  Anyway, despite this daily exercise plus hikes through the woods, 
swimming and jumping, she made such a turn after the ball one day that she 
tore her dew claw and an inch or two of skin below it in a jagged tear.  I 
think you are onto something combining all the factors of breed, diet, and 
lifestyle.
      Jo

_________________________________________________________________
Enjoy MSN 8 patented spam control and more with MSN 8 Dial-up Internet 
Service.  Try it FREE for one month!   http://join.msn.com/?page=dept/dialup


From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger"  3-NOV-2003 10:36:49.28
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	hippocampus studies

Hi everybody,

I'm starting a search for studies on the size of the hippocampus in stressed 
vs. non-stressed animals.  Anyone have personal knowledge of such?  Thanks,

       Jo

_________________________________________________________________
Send instant messages to anyone on your contact list with  MSN Messenger 
6.0.  Try it now FREE!  http://msnmessenger-download.com


From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger"  3-NOV-2003 17:10:39.28
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	hippocampus reactions to stress

Hi everyone,

There do not seem to be many bird brain studies around except in relation to 
physiological stress, homing and song learning.  I've only made a cursory 
search so far, of course finding lots of rat hippocampus studies, an 
occasional lagomorph and marsupial study.  Though a comparative study is 
useful, my current interests lay with birds.  Which raises my curiosity--are 
any ornithologists on this list?

My search had lead me to several papers:
these conclude that poor early development in birds (delayed feedings or not 
enough nutritious food for ex), apparently causes poor adult song quality.  
Since it's generally believed that female songbirds choose males by song 
quality (complexity, length, repetitions), physiological stressed/inferior 
males are not as likely to win mates as are healthier males.

ALSO, chronically stressed birds have been shown to behave with "learned 
helplessness" in subsequent episodes of stress:  this reminds me of the 
debate about apparent tameness of some wild animals suddenly made captive.  
No papers I've read, though, actually defined "chronic stress" so leaves me 
to wonder what's normal vs. stressful for a bird.
      Jo

_________________________________________________________________
Want to check if your PC is virus-infected?  Get a FREE computer virus scan 
online from McAfee.    
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From:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com"  4-NOV-2003 06:20:07.07
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	Welfare of Food Animals - Consumers like the Idea but not the Cost

A recent U.S. survey confirms our long-standing U.K. experience, that most
consumers (but not all, it must be said) like the idea of better quality of
life for food animals, but are reluctant to foot the bill.

(see www.aasv.org/news/story.php?id=824 )

I suspect that the biggest single obstacle to improved farm animal welfare
in developed countries is the high cost of labour - "welfare-friendly"
systems (ideally friendly to the welfare of workers as well as animals,
since the welfare of the two is inextricably linked!)  being so much more
labour-intensive.

This is not just because wage expectations in developed countries have risen
over recent decades, but also because of a huge rise in  "overhead costs"
arising from improved legal rights and benefits of employees, plus an
escalation of employment-related paperwork and regulatory (e.g. health and
safety) costs.

Just look at the number of animals or birds that one person has to care for
in the course of a day on a typical farm...

On poultry farms there could be one stockperson per thousand creatures (or
worse) , on a pig farm one stock person per 200 pigs is not unusual.

How can one human being possibly give any individual care and attention to
creatures with these staff/animal ratios?

Especially when farm staff have so much technical equipment and feed etc to
look after these days plus lots of paperwork and recording.

One solution to the labour cost obstacle would be to move meat production to
less-developed countries, but unfortunately, countries where people have
long had to focus on personal
survival issues or have lacked communication and education resources tend to
give a low priority to animal welfare.

NOW! however, I have had the bright idea of a possible solution which might
even
solve two problems for the price of one!....

Many developed countries are experiencing an upsurge of juvenile crime
(especially car crime) and vandalism, especially in inner city areas.
The juvenile delinquency problem (there is probably a less publicised adult
delinquency problem also!) has been related to....wait for it....."poor
welfare"

 i.e.  overcrowding, poorly structured social grouping, lack of "natural"
environment, lack of healthy recreational facilities, lack of opportunity
for healthy constructive behaviour or personal expression.


Which of course are all the same factors we see as contributing to "poor
welfare" in farm animals.

So, here is my idea....

Instead of:

Fines (which further enhance poor welfare and lack of opportunity and
choice)
or
Imprisonment (which can exacerbate the environment which
produced the crime in the first place - the "University of Crime" effect
that prisons can have).

Why not require or encourage delinquents to live and work with farming
families in a rural environment?
They would have the chance of a different environmental experience plus
provide a free or very cheap labour source for caring for farm animals.

Of course there would need to be safeguards for all concerned, and the
experience would not work in every case, but I believe that there could be
some benefits all round in at least some cases.

What do ethologist list members think? Is it possible to change the dynamics
of animal and human behaviour (and thereby their quality of life) with such
a scheme?

Animal Behaviour  and Welfare books
-----------------------------------------------
Oh, just one other thing for those of you who have read this far, I have
launched a "Bargain offers" (used or discounted-new) welfare and behaviour
books page on the pighealth.com website, see:
www.pighealth.com/offers/welfare.htm

Auctions have become a great source of on-line entertainment, excitement and
shopping bargains lately, so in the next few days we will also be auctioning
off a few books on that website.

The income from these activities will hopefully pay for the upkeep of the
website this winter.

Best wishes
Mike Meredith





From:	IN%"Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de"  "Andreas Briese"  4-NOV-2003 08:34:03.76
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Q:Pubs on sow husbandry esp claw cond

Hi all,

i'am looking for more recent publications about claw conditions, locomotion 
and resting behaviour (freq., duration, intensity ...) in individual housed sows 
(with litter) in farrowing crates with slattered floor. 
I would be happy for any help.

Andreas
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese

Tier„rztliche Hochschule Hannover
Institut fr Tierhygiene, Tierschutz und Nutztierethologie
Bnteweg 17 p         | School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover
D- 30559 Hannover   | Institute of Animal Hygiene, Animal Welfare and Behaviour of Farm Animals
Tel.: (+49) 511 953-8837
Fax.: (+49) 511 953-8588
E-Mail: 
andreas_briese@animcare-sci.de (PLEASE use this one if sending attachments!)
andreas.briese@tiho-hannover.de
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

From:	IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk"  "Moira Harris"  4-NOV-2003 09:17:14.07
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Q:Pubs on sow husbandry esp claw cond

Dear Andreas and all,

Are you looking specifically for publications about the relationship=20
between claw (foot) condition in sows and their locomotory behaviour in=20
farrowing crates?  Or for more general information?
Work has been published in the past on the space envelope of sows in=20
crates during posture changes (e.g. Baxter and Schwaller, 1983) and the=20
effects of crates vs other kinds of sow housing on standing up and=20
lying down behaviour (Harris and Gonyou, 1998, and Jeremy Marchant=20
Forde's work -- I haven't got the references to hand but expect Jeremy=20
would be happy to supply them if you email him on=20
marchant@purdue.edu).  Iain Christison and colleagues in Saskatchewan=20
have published about the effects of farrowing crate floors on pig=20
health and performance (including how well or badly various flooring=20
types facilitate posture changes), and Laura Boyle at Teagasc in=20
Ireland has done some much more recent work on effects of flooring.  If=20
you catch Laura quickly before she goes off on maternity leave I'm sure=20
she will gladly share what she knows: lboyle@moorepark.teagasc.ie. =20
Laura Green, an epidemiologist at the University of Warwick, UK, and=20
colleagues are currently running a project looking at the effects of=20
flooring on pigs' feet -- not specifically in relation to farrowing=20
crate floors, but she might have some interesting perspectives.  Her=20
email address is: laura.green@warwick.ac.uk.

Refs:=20
Baxter, M.R. and Schwaller, C.E., 1983.  Space requirements for sows in=20
confinement.  In: S.H. Baxter, M.R. Baxter and J.A.D. MacCormack (eds),=20
Farm Animal Housing and Welfare.  Martinus Nijhoff, Boston, MA, pp. 181-
195.
Christison, G.I., Lewis, N.J. and Bayne, G.R., 1987.  Effects of=20
farrowing crate floors on health and performance of piglets and sows. =20
Veterinary Record, 121: 37-41.
Harris, M.J. and Gonyou, H.W., 1998. Increasing available space in a=20
farrowing crate does not facilitate postural changes or maternal=20
responsiveness in gilts. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 59: 285-296.
Rohde Parfet, K.A., Gonyou, H.W., Curtis, S.E., Hurst, R.J., Jensen,=20
A.H. and Muehling, A.J., 1988.  Effects of sow-crate design on sow and=20
piglet behavior.  Journal of Animal Science, 67: 94-104.

.... sorry that most of these references are rather old: I used them=20
for my masters' thesis work!

Best wishes,
- Moira


Quoting Andreas Briese <Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de>:

> Hi all,
>=20
> i'am looking for more recent publications about claw conditions,
> locomotion=20
> and resting behaviour (freq., duration, intensity ...) in individual
> housed sows=20
> (with litter) in farrowing crates with slattered floor.=20
> I would be happy for any help.
>=20
> Andreas
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese
>=20
> Tier=84rztliche Hochschule Hannover
> Institut f=81r Tierhygiene, Tierschutz und Nutztierethologie
> B=81nteweg 17 p         | School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover
> D- 30559 Hannover   | Institute of Animal Hygiene, Animal Welfare and
> Behaviour of Farm Animals
> Tel.: (+49) 511 953-8837
> Fax.: (+49) 511 953-8588
> E-Mail:=20
> andreas_briese@animcare-sci.de (PLEASE use this one if sending
> attachments!)
> andreas.briese@tiho-hannover.de
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
>=20
>=20



-------------------------------------

Dr. Moira Harris

Animal Behaviour and Welfare Group
Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science=20
University of Bristol
Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk

Ecology and Epidemiology Group
Dept. Biological Sciences
University of Warwick
Moira.Harris@warwick.ac.uk



From:	IN%"csmith35@nycap.rr.com"  "Cynthia Smith"  4-NOV-2003 14:18:03.10
To:	IN%"Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de"  "Andreas Briese", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Q:Pubs on sow husbandry esp claw cond

Scroll through the "Behavior" and "Housing" sections of this online
publication. I think you will find some citations of interest if you browse
through it. You can also do a word search with the "Find" command within
your browser software.

Information Resources on Swine Housing, Care, and Welfare
http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/swinehousing/swinehousing2.htm

Cynthia Smith, Technical Information Specialist
USDA/ARS/NAL
Animal Welfare Information Center

----- Original Message -----
From: "Andreas Briese" <Andreas.Briese@tiho-hannover.de>
To: <applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca>
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 9:33 AM
Subject: Q:Pubs on sow husbandry esp claw cond


> Hi all,
>
> i'am looking for more recent publications about claw conditions,
locomotion
> and resting behaviour (freq., duration, intensity ...) in individual
housed sows
> (with litter) in farrowing crates with slattered floor.
> I would be happy for any help.
>
> Andreas
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
> Dr. med. vet. Andreas Briese
>
> Tier"rztliche Hochschule Hannover
> Institut fr Tierhygiene, Tierschutz und Nutztierethologie
> Bnteweg 17 p         | School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover
> D- 30559 Hannover   | Institute of Animal Hygiene, Animal Welfare and
Behaviour of Farm Animals
> Tel.: (+49) 511 953-8837
> Fax.: (+49) 511 953-8588
> E-Mail:
> andreas_briese@animcare-sci.de (PLEASE use this one if sending
attachments!)
> andreas.briese@tiho-hannover.de
> +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++



From:	IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol"  4-NOV-2003 15:56:28.13
To:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Welfare of Food Animals - Consumers like the Idea but not the Cost

Mike
Some interesting ideas here.  In our extensive beef industry the ratio of animal 'carers' to animals is even greater - cattle property size varies considerably - eg in Central Coastal Queensland the range is 300 to 40, 000 ha (median 6, 200), compared to a range of 20, 000 to 1.6 million ha (median 304, 000) in the Northern Territory.  Herd size varies considerably too - from about 300 to 3, 400 head (median 1, 550) in Central Coastal Queensland to 1, 000 to 
62, 000 head (median 13, 700) in the Northern Territory.  A survey conducted in 1990 showed that an average of 3 permanent workers were employed on beef cattle enterprises, although about 7 were employed in the really large, extensive regions.  Casual workers are employed when necessary, such as for mustering cattle.  Here are a couple of egs of properties in Western Queensland: 600, 000 ha, 18, 000 head of cattle and 8 permanent staff; 1.4 million ha, 
23, 000 head and 16 permanent staff.  As you say, it is impossible to closely monitor all animals in such situations - certainly not on a daily basis and I doubt even weekly.  The animals are mustered and handled (real close-up inspection possible) just once or twice a year.  I'm not sure your idea of extra staff would solve the problem in this situation given the distances involved - but it may improve things.  
I'm not sure if 'prison farms' are common, but there is one near here - and it seems to operate well.  There was a documentary on the TV here some time ago and prisoners with a history of violence were put to work caring for animals - I think it was at a local rehabilitation centre for sick/injured wildlife.  The prisoners reported definite positives of this work and appeared to 'bring out the best' in them (and these reports seemed to be supported by workers at the animal rehab centre and the prison staff).  The worst punishment for these prisoners was being prevented from going to work looking after the animals!  Of course, as you said, there'd need to be close attention paid to selection and supervision of people working in such animal care situations.

Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences 
Department of Primary Industries

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	michael.meredith@btconnect.com [mailto:michael.meredith@btconnect.com] 
Sent:	Tuesday, 4 November 2003 10:19 PM
To:	Ethology Posting
Subject:	Welfare of Food Animals - Consumers like the Idea but not the Cost

A recent U.S. survey confirms our long-standing U.K. experience, that most
consumers (but not all, it must be said) like the idea of better quality of
life for food animals, but are reluctant to foot the bill.

(see www.aasv.org/news/story.php?id=824 )

I suspect that the biggest single obstacle to improved farm animal welfare
in developed countries is the high cost of labour - "welfare-friendly"
systems (ideally friendly to the welfare of workers as well as animals,
since the welfare of the two is inextricably linked!)  being so much more
labour-intensive.

This is not just because wage expectations in developed countries have risen
over recent decades, but also because of a huge rise in  "overhead costs"
arising from improved legal rights and benefits of employees, plus an
escalation of employment-related paperwork and regulatory (e.g. health and
safety) costs.

Just look at the number of animals or birds that one person has to care for
in the course of a day on a typical farm...

On poultry farms there could be one stockperson per thousand creatures (or
worse) , on a pig farm one stock person per 200 pigs is not unusual.

How can one human being possibly give any individual care and attention to
creatures with these staff/animal ratios?

Especially when farm staff have so much technical equipment and feed etc to
look after these days plus lots of paperwork and recording.

One solution to the labour cost obstacle would be to move meat production to
less-developed countries, but unfortunately, countries where people have
long had to focus on personal
survival issues or have lacked communication and education resources tend to
give a low priority to animal welfare.

NOW! however, I have had the bright idea of a possible solution which might
even
solve two problems for the price of one!....

Many developed countries are experiencing an upsurge of juvenile crime
(especially car crime) and vandalism, especially in inner city areas.
The juvenile delinquency problem (there is probably a less publicised adult
delinquency problem also!) has been related to....wait for it....."poor
welfare"

 i.e.  overcrowding, poorly structured social grouping, lack of "natural"
environment, lack of healthy recreational facilities, lack of opportunity
for healthy constructive behaviour or personal expression.


Which of course are all the same factors we see as contributing to "poor
welfare" in farm animals.

So, here is my idea....

Instead of:

Fines (which further enhance poor welfare and lack of opportunity and
choice)
or
Imprisonment (which can exacerbate the environment which
produced the crime in the first place - the "University of Crime" effect
that prisons can have).

Why not require or encourage delinquents to live and work with farming
families in a rural environment?
They would have the chance of a different environmental experience plus
provide a free or very cheap labour source for caring for farm animals.

Of course there would need to be safeguards for all concerned, and the
experience would not work in every case, but I believe that there could be
some benefits all round in at least some cases.

What do ethologist list members think? Is it possible to change the dynamics
of animal and human behaviour (and thereby their quality of life) with such
a scheme?

Animal Behaviour  and Welfare books
-----------------------------------------------
Oh, just one other thing for those of you who have read this far, I have
launched a "Bargain offers" (used or discounted-new) welfare and behaviour
books page on the pighealth.com website, see:
www.pighealth.com/offers/welfare.htm

Auctions have become a great source of on-line entertainment, excitement and
shopping bargains lately, so in the next few days we will also be auctioning
off a few books on that website.

The income from these activities will hopefully pay for the upkeep of the
website this winter.

Best wishes
Mike Meredith 

********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
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privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity 
to which it is addressed.  If you are not the addressee any form of 
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From:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com"  4-NOV-2003 16:54:32.68
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Prison farms

Thanks for this data about ratio of animal 'carers' to animals  in your
extensive beef industry, Carol.

What you say about the value some prisoners get from animal contact is well
supported from my own past experience of visiting a couple of prison farms
to treat animals (when I worked in veterinary practice and teaching).

I have also worked in urban and inner city charity veterinary clinics and
seen the value (*) some children and teenagers get from contact with
animals.


*  In a very simple direct way, time spent with animals is less time for
crime, vandalising and unwise sexual activity (we have a huge problem in the
UK of teenage and child pregnancy).

But also many indirect benefits e.g. the calming effect of animal
companionship and  the qualities of responsibility, sensitivity, tenderness
etc that are often cultivated.

Mike
www.sunflower-health.com



From:	IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt"  "Anna Olsson"  5-NOV-2003 04:04:20.67
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	ISAE conference question

Can anyone tell me who were the research students awarded for best poster and talk at the ISAE conference this year? I've tried to contact Elisabetta Canali but the address at the ISAE web site doesn't work.

I apologize for bothering non-ISAE members with this.

Anna Olsson

From:	IN%"kc@synalia.com"  5-NOV-2003 06:07:11.81
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: ISAE conference question

Hi All,

Having a brilliant time working with folks in Australia.  Thought some
here might enjoy hearing some applications of applied animal ethology
dependent on exotic animal training.  Today we worked with:

Gorillas preparing to undergo embryo transplant, in an effort to advance
gorilla stocks/management

Giraffes preparing to undergo artificial insemination.

Pigs learning the names of food items, keepers, objects and tested on
ability to discriminate between them, even to the point of identifying
keepers by their keys.  The pig involved in this last was so enthusiastic,
he was impatient when we tried to give him a rest, so we resumed
training/work.  Love those pigs.

Tawny Frogmouths were conditioned to the bridges, and learned vocabularly
for various care requirements (going in kennel, going on hand,
identification of stimuli which trigger alarm response - predicted to be
important in helping him cope better with stressful stimuli).

Tomorrow:  husbandry training for rhino iguanas, perception experiments
with leopard seals (12 feet long and eat other seals).

Taronga is an outstanding zoo, and the keepers are incredibly hardworking
and dedicated. Besides treking up and down the "hill", performing unending
physical labor, and functioning in 30 degree C weather, the keeper staff
doubled efforts to be able to make time to learn new techniques, and to
cooperate in their research and training efforts.   The animals were calm,
interactive, and eager to learn more, not to mention participating in
important breeding and research programs across the board.  In many ways,
a zoo functions as a university extension - with extremely high impact on
its visitors.  Researchers, both on staff and at various research
institutions, collaborate to conduct physiological and behavioral
research, conservation efforts, and public education.  As we travelled
through the zoo, on Grand Rounds, we were sometimes joined by members of
the public, who asked probing and intelligent questions about the apparent
abilities of the animals, the programs, and the status of the animals and
their habitats.

Nice to see the zoo is effectively meeting its goal of promoting the
animals and their welfare and public awareness and understanding of same.



Kayce Cover
Syn Alia Training Systems
http://www.synalia.com



From:	IN%"kc@synalia.com"  5-NOV-2003 06:18:36.27
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	animal training/applied ethology, was Re: ISAE conference question

Thanks for your patience with the incorrect subject heading on the first
post of below:

> Hi All,
>
> Having a brilliant time working with folks in Australia.  Thought some
> here might enjoy hearing some applications of applied animal ethology
> dependent on exotic animal training.  Today we worked with:
>
> Gorillas preparing to undergo embryo transplant, in an effort to
> advance gorilla stocks/management
>
> Giraffes preparing to undergo artificial insemination.
>
> Pigs learning the names of food items, keepers, objects and tested on
> ability to discriminate between them, even to the point of identifying
> keepers by their keys.  The pig involved in this last was so
> enthusiastic, he was impatient when we tried to give him a rest, so we
> resumed
> training/work.  Love those pigs.
>
> Tawny Frogmouths were conditioned to the bridges, and learned
> vocabularly for various care requirements (going in kennel, going on
> hand,
> identification of stimuli which trigger alarm response - predicted to
> be important in helping him cope better with stressful stimuli).
>
> Tomorrow:  husbandry training for rhino iguanas, perception experiments
> with leopard seals (12 feet long and eat other seals).
>
> Taronga is an outstanding zoo, and the keepers are incredibly
> hardworking and dedicated. Besides treking up and down the "hill",
> performing unending physical labor, and functioning in 30 degree C
> weather, the keeper staff doubled efforts to be able to make time to
> learn new techniques, and to cooperate in their research and training
> efforts.   The animals were calm, interactive, and eager to learn more,
> not to mention participating in important breeding and research
> programs across the board.  In many ways, a zoo functions as a
> university extension - with extremely high impact on its visitors.
> Researchers, both on staff and at various research
> institutions, collaborate to conduct physiological and behavioral
> research, conservation efforts, and public education.  As we travelled
> through the zoo, on Grand Rounds, we were sometimes joined by members
> of the public, who asked probing and intelligent questions about the
> apparent abilities of the animals, the programs, and the status of the
> animals and their habitats.
>
> Nice to see the zoo is effectively meeting its goal of promoting the
> animals and their welfare and public awareness and understanding of
> same.
>
>
>
> Kayce Cover
> Syn Alia Training Systems
> http://www.synalia.com


Kayce Cover
Syn Alia Training Systems
http://www.synalia.com



From:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin"  5-NOV-2003 08:30:01.32
To:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Prison farms

There is no question but that labor has had, and continues to have, a major
impact on animal welfare.  Intensive agricultural systems have been made
possible primarily as a result of the use of chemical and mechanical
technology to replace human labor.  And not all aspects of technology are
negative for animal welfare.  However, I believe that there are some very
serious issues related to the number of animal caretakers per animal,
especially in the confinement type systems.

In the past, I have proposed that one of the best ways to "level the playing
field," across international boundaries and across farms of greatly
different sizes, would be the adoption of a global policy that required one
caretaker for a given number of animal units.  For example it might be
required that one animal caretaker is required for each 30 farrowing sows,
each 60 milking cows, etc.  There are obviously some very big problems with
trying to develop such a policy.  One obvious problem has to do with
extensive versus intensive systems.  Dealing with range cattle is very
different from managing beef/suckler cattle maintained under improved
pasture conditions.  Nevertheless, I think that the problem is so great that
a solution should be sought. It is my understanding that some layer
operations have essentially one caretaker per multi-millions of birds, with
technology the only basis of providing feed, water, egg gathering, etc.
While I have never seen such operations, I have heard that the birds in top
levels of 5 to 6 stacked cages are so high that the caretaker can not see
inside the cages.  To me, this sounds as if we, in animal agriculture, have
gone beyond what is reasonable for the sake of providing cheap food to the
consumer.  And we done this primarily through the elimination of labor
costs.  Thus, I think that requiring one caretaker per ? thousand birds is a
partial solution that is worth considering.  The immediate impact of such a
policy would tend to place a greater burden on larger scale systems - and
there may be some need to consider not having the ratio ordinal/linear
across the different sized systems.  But again, I think that such a policy
is worth considering - on a global basis.



Regarding possible human wellbeing benefits from animal contact - policy in
the USA does not permit the use of prison, mental hospital, and other
"institutional" types of labor.  This came about sometime around the 1970's
and was linked to the adoption of a policy that does not permit a person to
be kept in a mental hospital against their will, unless the individual
presents an obvious threat to themselves or another person.  It was a ruling
by the Supreme Court that brought about these policies.  A sizeable part of
homelessness in the USA today stems to this ruling; i.e., persons cannot be
forced to live in a shelter, etc. against their will.   (I am not suggesting
that more shelters and more  mental care, etc. are not needed.  But without
forced "institutionalization" of at least a few persons, it is not likely
that zero homelessness could ever be accomplished.)

The Supreme Court ruling affected research activities at a number of
universities as well.  Prior to the ruling, The Pennsylvania State
University conducted research on a herd of 200+ cows at the Rockville Penal
Institution.  Prisoners did the labor associated with husbandry.  This farm
was closed after the ruling by the court.

The University of Maryland took over a 250 cow herd from the Springfield
Mental Hospital at Sykesville when hospital residents were no longer
permitted to work at that institution.  This was the location of the
dissertation work by Janice Swanson for one - but the University turned the
farm back to the state of Maryland about 1990.

There are some US prisons today that do permit inmates to have contact with
animals, including at least one prison that gives the inmates access to
"wild" horses to be tamed.  However, there continue to be considerable
restrictions on the use inmates for _labor_ that would otherwise be for pay.

I very much agree that using institutionalized persons for labor for profit
(or punishment, in most cases) is not acceptable.  However, I think that we
have gone too far in this policy in the USA, for I believe there are
benefits that accrue from "work" that is in association with providing care
for animals, as indicated below.


W.R. Stricklin



-----Original Message-----
From: michael.meredith@btconnect.com
[mailto:michael.meredith@btconnect.com]
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 5:19 PM
To: Ethology Posting
Subject: Re: Prison farms


Thanks for this data about ratio of animal 'carers' to animals  in your
extensive beef industry, Carol.

What you say about the value some prisoners get from animal contact is well
supported from my own past experience of visiting a couple of prison farms
to treat animals (when I worked in veterinary practice and teaching).

I have also worked in urban and inner city charity veterinary clinics and
seen the value (*) some children and teenagers get from contact with
animals.


*  In a very simple direct way, time spent with animals is less time for
crime, vandalising and unwise sexual activity (we have a huge problem in the
UK of teenage and child pregnancy).

But also many indirect benefits e.g. the calming effect of animal
companionship and  the qualities of responsibility, sensitivity, tenderness
etc that are often cultivated.

Mike
www.sunflower-health.com




From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  5-NOV-2003 20:53:39.21
To:	IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au"  "'Petherick, Carol'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	"citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

If dogs are considered citizens, and given certain rights,
anthropomorphized, then they necessarily will be subjected to certain
human rituals too which may include tattooing tail docking dressing up
in pink ribbons etc etc etc. Why should a handful of "outsiders" dictate
what relatively harmless rituals are "good" and "evil"? No-one has been
able to coherently explain why tail docking is worse than circumcision.
Some humans willingly circumcise their babies. Their babies can not make
an informed consent. Should dogs be better protected (or more highly
regulated) than babies??
Circumcision was not banned, just regulated. Why could not tail docking
have been firstly more thoroughly researched, and secondly, regulated. I
have really had it with this attitude of banning whatever is not deemed
politically correct for today. I believe it is all about appearances,
for those motivated by political correctness. Political correctness is
all about pressuring people into conformity with some narrow fashion
ideal; it is the antithesis of academia enlightenment tolerance and
learning. I hope one day the tide of political correctness turns on
those who propagate it. 
Jackie Perkins


-----Original Message-----
From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:55 PM
To: oryctolagus; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
molecular biology?

Dear Heather
I suspect your last sentence provides the explanation.  I don't know the
full story (and sorry, don't have time to research it all), but I
strongly suspect that this experimental work has been marketed/sold on
the basis of the potential good it will do to humans/and or animals
(skin grafts, new organs/tissues grown to replace burned/missing parts)
and is acceptable to the public and those setting welfare/ethical
standards because the potential benefits outweigh the negatives (in
terms of negative impacts on animal welfare).  I find it hard to see how
tail-docking for cosmetic purposes can ever be justified, as there are
lots of negatives and no potential benefits for the animals.

Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences 
Department of Primary Industries

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	oryctolagus [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net] 
Sent:	Friday, 31 October 2003 11:57 AM
To:	applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject:	What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
molecular biology?

Why is everyone so upset about tail docking and removal of dew claws,
when molecular biologists in mainland China and here in the USA have
been busy doing such industry-supported things as attaching a baby rat's
head to the side of an adult (both lived) and in rabbits, removing the
rabbit's ear and growing new human shaped ear on a cartilage matrix
where the rabbit-ear used to be? (this has been done in at least two
instances by molecular biologists).  The one Lady business owner who
displayed such a rabbit at a convention went on to be a Dean at a
prominent California Business college (
http://members.aol.com/salaned/writings/engineer.htm  from a former
molecular biologist (Salk Institute among others:
http://members.aol.com/salaned/cyberplace.html)   She founded the
company Advanced Tissue Sciences, displayed a rabbit at a bioartificial
organs conference which had a human ear grafted in place of its own ear.
The other instance of a rabbit having a human ear grown on its body was
by Cao Yilin, a Shanghai researcher who is also head of the Laboratory
of Soft Tissue Engineering at America's University of Massachusetts
(he's now back in China).

Shouldn't there be more biologists and ethicists *screaming* about the
ethics in the tissue regeneration research fields?  There is stuff going
on there that makes Frankenstein look tame; and, the scientists in the
field seem apparently proud of it.  Would such a law protect rabbits
used in molecular biology research?  Aren't these very famous, very
prestigious molecular biologists "amoral"?  They hold high respected
posts in their communities.  The lady doctor above is revered for her
work in childrens' burn therapy.  

H.Mcmurray 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Beck <wheep@igrin.co.nz>
Sent: Oct 30, 2003 5:56 PM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: FW: tail docking
> - I assume this would be a judgement call best made by a Vet on a case
by
> case basis. The issue was tail docking, which I firmly believe to be
> ethically wrong - so why not keep it there rather than going off at a
> tangent?

I agree, but legislation which prohibits any "removal of body parts"
obviously
applies to "dew claws" too.  I'm not sure the ethical issues are really
so
very
different.  In both cases we are dealing with removal of a normally
functional
body part, which under certain circumstances, but not under others, may
be
liable to significant painful injury if not removed.  I don't wish to
appear
dense, but where's the difference?

Many veterinarians are not, I'm afraid, sufficiently familiar with the
realities
of working dogs to have a valid opinion on such matters.  At least in
this
country, the overwhelming majority of patients in the average practice
are
obese
family pets whose greatest athletic achievement is jumping on or off the
sofa. 
Those of us with high performance working dogs often travel hundreds of
miles to
find a veterinarian truly knowledgeable about their needs.

In the sighthounds with which I am most familiar I am opposed to the
removal
of
"dew claws" (front first digits) because they are functionally useful
and
because I disapprove of *any* unnecessary surgery, ablation or what
haveJohn
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com 

********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages 
(which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity 
to which it is addressed.  If you are not the addressee any form of 
disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken 
or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised.  Opinions 
contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions 
of the Queensland Government and its authorities.  If you received 
this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and 
delete it from your computer system network. 



From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  5-NOV-2003 21:49:31.83
To:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "'Ray Stricklin'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	paradigms

I agree, and you would be more up-to-date with these readings than I
since I do not work in Academe. But I do feel that Descartes is
needlessly cited in current ethical "research" in an effort to set up a
straw-man argument for the opposing view. Classical Cartesian dualism is
waaaaay out of date. If tail docking is so clearly wrong or evil, why
weaken your position by setting up the opposition's position using
straw-man arguments? 
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 3:08 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Human controlling animals


The position of Lorenz and other ethologists represented a paradigm
shift
relative to the views of either Descartes or Watson.  No one familiar
with
the literature would attempt to argue otherwise.

W.R. Stricklin


-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 7:22 PM
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Human controlling animals


I do not think Descartes or Watson believed animals had no feelings; no
soul in a religious sense perhaps, but then most religion still believes
this to this very day! Reading Descartes or Watson and superficially
understanding them may lead one to this conclusion.
Jackie Perkins





From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  5-NOV-2003 21:49:37.93
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food

I was speaking generally, not to you directly. What do you (ie everyone)
think of dugongs (a protected species) being routinely clubbed to death
for traditional food? It is perfectly legal here in Australia. Clearly,
humaneness is not a consideration of this law, just a high degree of
tolerance for traditional culture.=20
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:05 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: research??

The word used was studies - nor did I "post any references for rubbish
"research"!" (in fact I did not post any references at all) But being
well
aware of your entirely unpleasant and sharp-tongued lack of manners will
leave you to rave on alone.

I would think the comment referring to Aborigines is well out of place -
perhaps it might be appropriate to an all Australian audience but even
then
it sounds like sour grapes - I am used to rednecks making the same kinds
of
comment in NZ with regard to Maori - do we have a little problem with
racism
perhaps - as well as a penchant for crying politics - or is this just
general undirected venom at a wicked world? What is your problem?

Spare me any further vitriol;
placing you back in the auto delete bin ;)

Regards
Andy Beck
White Horse Equine Ethology Project
433 Wharepunga Rd
RD3 Kaikohe
Northland
Aotearoa - New Zealand
http://www.equine-behavior.com
http://www.equine-social-behavior.org
http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]=20
Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2003 1:15 p.m.
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: research??

What "sufficient research"? Do you mean the "research" citing lots of
unpublished data? OR the patently rhetorical research? One thing is
certain; there has been no good quality or comprehensive research done
on the issue of tail docking and more certainly none done by
sociologists or the humanities. Those against tail docking are too
confident of their position to need anything like research nor to
involve humanities experts.
Ps Please do not post any references for rubbish "research"!=20
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:05 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: dew claws

Mary

I am surprised you think I do not understand =96 was there anything so
complex
that that would be likely?

Dew claws is a separate issue =96 and I think there is no ethical =
question
as
they are liable to tearing =96 which results in pain  - therefore =
removing
them in a controlled manner under anaesthesia, even though it may cause
some
pain post-op, to prevent the much worse pain of a tear is quite ethical.
This is quite different to tail docking. Even so, it would clearly be
better
to breed so that this becomes unnecessary.

Sufficient studies have been carried out on tail docking =96 as you must
surely now be aware. Therefore there is no quick judgement going on
here. My
response was based entirely on awareness of these findings =96 not on
emotion.


My dogs assist me with all farm work =96 removing feral cattle and, on
occasion, pigs (fence and pasture damage), rounding up and removing
neighbours sheep (except when with lambs at foot as the dogs tend to be
a
little hard and inexperienced for such gentle work), moving groups of
horses
and protecting our plants and fruit trees from possums - quite varied
work,
and a great deal of it out of line of sight or direct control.

Please =96 no further FLAMES =96 the practice is somewhat out of place =
on
this
list and, in my case, merely makes me bin the posting as juvenile.

Regards
Andy Beck
White Horse Equine Ethology Project
433 Wharepunga Rd
RD3 Kaikohe
Northland
Aotearoa - New Zealand
http://www.equine-behavior.com
http://www.equine-social-behavior.org
http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz
=A0
-----Original Message-----
From: mary doran [mailto:mary@fusiondesignuk.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2003 5:36 p.m.
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: dew claws

You misunderstand me Andy.
I did not at any point say that ANY practise should be continued.
Perhaps a less emotional response with clearer reading of my exact words
would have allowed you to see that I relayed factual accounts of my own
experience ,and that my main point was this..
=A0
<"We should not be TOO quick to judge practices of animal husbandry if
we
have
not researched properly the original reasons why these practices
developed
centuries ago, or if we ourselves have not experienced problems
encountered
through these procedures not being carried out at birth.">
=A0
So allow me to explain=A0 further what I am implying here if you did not
understand what i meant.
I beleive that before taking such a step as to ban a particular
practise=A0
scientific research should=A0be carried out to see IF any of these
practises
are justified.
By 'not researched properly'=A0 what I mean is controlled long term
studies
following both groups of collies that are' de-clawed' a birth and also
those
remaining intact.
The fact that=A0I relayed my own personal experience to be shortly
followed by
you with your OWN anecdotal experience verifys my point that without
studies
and facts it will be impossible to assert what is best for the breed in
a
non-emotional way.
=A0
I am very interested to know where you work you collies with sheep.
Do you take part at trial standard? Or farm work only?
IF farm work, what size flocks and type=A0of land do you work.
I attend alot of trials here in the UK with border collies, and I am
also
studying to be an animal behaviour therapist based on an ethological
approach combined with operant conditoining methods.=A0
=A0I have started a survey among the regular competitors of the sport =
and
although it is not yet completed I have to say=A0that so far
the trend among most ISDS registered working border collie breeders
appears
to be that removal of front dew claws is the preferred approach.
The difference between you an I, it appears is that you carried out a
practise of docking without questioning its validity and then stopped
whereas I chose NOT to have invasive removal at birth only to discover
there
was a possibility of a real problem developing as a result.
I do not see why you are talking about emotional knee jerks as you seem
to
be having on while accusing me of doing so.
=A0
SO I suggested critical analysis BEFORE banning a practise as this seems
a
bit backwards to me.
Naturally, if the study showed that removal of front dew claws was
uneccessary and unrelated to following 'accidental' ripping of dew claws
then I would be very happy that it was discontinued.
I am wanting the best for the breed.
Not sure exactly what your point is.
=A0
Let me know what exactly=A0it is that you disagree with.
=A0
Sincerely
=A0
Mary Doran
=A0
He who does not know and 'asks' is a fool for five minutes.
He who does not know and does NOT ask....is a fool forever.








From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  5-NOV-2003 21:51:21.85
To:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "'Ray Stricklin'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	norms and mores;

You commented previously that it was silly to include tail-docking in
the same category as murder? I do not believe so. Look at some facts. If
I were to tail dock now I would be fined $7500 and very likely be struck
off from the Veterinary Surgeon's register and lose my liveliehood. If I
were found responsible for some negligent death or injury, say in a
motor vehicle accident, I would get off much more lightly; probably
receive community service. 
Sociologists divide breaches of the social code into two categories:
norms and mores. Breaching a norm is not punishable at law eg picking
ones nose in public. Breaching a more is punishable at law eg murder,
rape, speeding, tail docking. Previously tail docking was not even a
norm. It has artificially evolved from accepted practice to more in the
blink of an eye. I do not believe humaneness has anything to do with it.
It is all about politics and fashion. 
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 3:08 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Human controlling animals


The position of Lorenz and other ethologists represented a paradigm
shift
relative to the views of either Descartes or Watson.  No one familiar
with
the literature would attempt to argue otherwise.

W.R. Stricklin


-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 7:22 PM
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Human controlling animals


I do not think Descartes or Watson believed animals had no feelings; no
soul in a religious sense perhaps, but then most religion still believes
this to this very day! Reading Descartes or Watson and superficially
understanding them may lead one to this conclusion.
Jackie Perkins





From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  5-NOV-2003 21:54:12.48
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: humans including animals in their social structures

You make everything sound soooo simple! Have you ever really tried to
see an issue from the other side? Those with opposing views are not
stupid. 
Jackie Perkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au] 
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 2:00 PM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: humans including animals in their social structures

Desexing is less of an ethical issue because it is not done for
mainly/purely cosmetic reasons; it is less of an ethical issue because
there are many positive aspects to desexing and the positives are
believed (by those who make the rules) to outweigh the negatives.

Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences 
Department of Primary Industries

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] 
Sent:	Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:02 AM
To:	Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject:	RE: humans including animals in their social structures

Your horses probably do not form part of your social group, but domestic
dogs certainly do. Their relationship is ambiguous between conspecific
and interspecific. Tail docking is no more drastic than tattoing,
circumcising, or piercing all of which are widely done to conspecifics
in human societies. We do not know if tail docking was worth banning or
not. It was done summarily without proper consideration or research. In
some Scandinavian and European countries the routine desexing of pet
dogs is banned. How is desexing less of an ethical issue than tail
docking? 
Jackie PErkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:15 AM
To: wheep@igrin.co.nz; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: humans including animals in their social structures

  I wonder when it was that our society started
thinking that it was OK to mutilate animals.  I have
been hearing a lot lately about the mutilation of
monkeys, just so they could become pets.  They are
pulling out all of their teeth and cutting off their
tail so that a diaper fits better.
  These are things that I had no idea was being done
until I got a computer and got on the Pheonix Exotics
list.  I didn't stay on that list very long.
  Life is so sad for some animals out there.
CeAnn
--- Andy Beck <wheep@igrin.co.nz> wrote:
> >People have always tattooed others in their social
> group, circumcised,
> >pierced,  etc etc etc. These are important social
> traditions and serve as
> >social adhesive. Tail docking is not prima facie
> evil as the propaganda >
> >tells us.<
> 
> 
> In what way is there any connection, ethical or
> otherwise, between what
> people choose to do to themselves and the
> involuntary removal of a useful
> body part from a member of another species? Either
> there is a clear train of
> logic or the issue is confused - intentionally or by
> dint of lack of
> critical reasoning.
> 
> Regards
> Andy Beck
> White Horse Equine Ethology Project
> 433 Wharepunga Rd
> RD3 Kaikohe
> Northland
> Aotearoa - New Zealand
> http://www.equine-behavior.com
> http://www.equine-social-behavior.org
> http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz
>  
> 
> 
> 


=====
CeAnn Lambert
Indiana Coyote Rescue Center
www.WolfPark.org/ICRC

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
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********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages 
(which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity 
to which it is addressed.  If you are not the addressee any form of 
disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken 
or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised.  Opinions 
contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions 
of the Queensland Government and its authorities.  If you received 
this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and 
delete it from your computer system network. 



From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  5-NOV-2003 21:54:39.05
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: desexing is a mutilation too

If the problem is merely a practical one involving pain, then analgesia
is indicated. As I understand it, the objection to tail docking is much
more involved than that it causes pain.
Jackie PErkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Francis Burton [mailto:F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 4:32 AM
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Cc: Geiger
Subject: Re: desexing is a mutilation too

At 12:49 30/10/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
>Desexing described in detail would sound just as brutal!

Jackie,

Wouldn't it depend on whether or not the procedure caused evident pain?
The likely degree of short- and long-term pain must surely be a factor
to be
taken into account when evaluating the "ethics" of a surgical
body-alteration
procedure. Assessment of pain in animals is very tricky, but certainly
of
interest to applied ethologists, I would imagine.

What is the current opinion on tail-docking of horses?

Francis





From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  5-NOV-2003 21:54:44.64
To:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "'Ray Stricklin'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	IN%"Rachelandphil@aol.com"  "Rachel Bowater"
Subj:	Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician.

I suspect that philosophy depts are still the only place teaching formal
ethics. A sound basis in formal ethics would orientate the mind
correctly for contemplating specific issues. I have rarely seen applied
ethics by various depts even vaguely resemble formal ethics. Such
courses in applied ethics, without a formal basis, resemble political
arguments with moralistic overtones. What a parody of formal ethics!
Being capable of adding up does not qualify one to be a mathematician.
So too ethics is a subject area all its own and should be treated as
such. One needs specific learning to do it well! A BVSc or PhD does not
cut it. That is evident. 
Those depts or individuals endeavouring to teach or publish applied
ethics should first acquire a basic education in ethics. Ethics is about
reasonableness, truth, equality, fairness, and most of all correctly
understanding various views at their strongest, not creating straw-man
arguments for the other side then proceeding to set them alight! Such
contempt for opposing views is rife in applied ethics and only furthers
ignorance. It is not till one understands their opponent's side so
thoroughly that they are seduced by it, that one is in a position to
fully criticize it. I have rarely seen such understanding displayed in
any of the so-called applied veterinary ethics arguments about tail
docking. They lack the mental tools obtainable from the study of formal
ethics. They appear to know so little about their subject that they are
unaware of their ignorance. 
Jackie Perkins
Veterinary Behaviour Consultant
Australia 

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:04 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by
philosphy depts; probably still is!

A question raised below asks, "Where other than philosophy departments
is
ethics taught today?"  The answer is, "There are attempts to introduce
ethics in essentially every department of an up-to-date university!"

Check out of some of the hits from GOOGLE with the key words "ethics"
and
"NSF"  (NSF is the USA National Science Foundation, which funds a number
of
grants each year with the mission of introducing of ethics into "all"
science, medical and engineering courses.) Below are a few examples of
funded projects:

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/newsarch/1998/Mar98/bioethic.htm
CORVALLIS - Oregon State University has received a grant from the
National
Science Foundation to hold a National Bioethics Institute this summer to
help faculty from OSU and from around the country integrate ethics into
their science courses.
Only 30 faculty will be admitted into the institute - about half from
OSU
and the rest chosen from applications around the country.
The institute is one of three that the National Science Foundation will
fund
on bioethics during 1998-99, according to Courtney Campbell, director of
OSU's Program for Ethics, Science and the Environment.
"The relationship between ethics and science is becoming more pronounced
-
and is under greater scrutiny - than ever before," Campbell said. "It is
important to discuss these issues with students, but when ethics
professors
go into a science classroom, they don't necessarily have the credibility
with students, and it gives the appearance that ethics are peripheral to
the
'regular' curriculum.
"What we hope to do is begin training science faculty how to integrate
the
teaching of ethics throughout the curriculum."
Among the topics planned: ethical issues surrounding biotechnology, the
renewed interest in land ethics and natural resources, treatment of
animals,
and the role of religion.

http://www.cse.nd.edu/~kwb/nsf-ufe/
The field of "Ethics and Computing" encompasses a lot of territory.
Courses
in this area may be taught in programs such as Information Systems,
Computer
Science, Computer Engineering and Electrical Engineering. Material in
this
area may be taught as a stand-alone course and/or as modules in courses
throughout the curriculum. Whatever teaching responsibility you have
related
to this area, the materials here should help you to teach ethics and
computing in a way that provides rigorous, relevant and effective
learning
experiences for your students.

http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/ses/sdest/start.htm
The Societal Dimensions of Engineering, Science, and Technology (SDEST)
program contains two components: Ethics and Values Studies, and Research
on
Science and Technology. The program announcement is NSF 01-152. Target
dates
for submitting proposals are February 1 and August 1. In SDEST, the
Ethics
and Values Studies (EVS) component focuses on developing and
transmitting
knowledge about ethical and value dimensions associated with science,
engineering, and technology




-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 6:16 PM
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by philosphy
depts; probably still is!


Well then where are those arguments? And where is the research? The
propaganda put out by some of my colleagues was not of a publishable
standard yet somehow was published...it would not have passed
introductory ethics though may have obtained a pass in politics. I think
you are confusing veterinary ethics with veterinary politics. Ethics is
NOT spelled P_O_L_I_T_I_C_S! Why don't any practicing veterinary
ethicists display a basic education in ethics? I think you are very
confused about what ethics is. Why not take a course in basic ethics at
one of the main universities and find out? None of us should ever think
we know it all. A veterinary degree, even a PhD does NOT confer ethics
capabilities. I am constantly amazed that the public would ask doctors
et





From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  5-NOV-2003 21:55:47.53
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by philosphy depts; probably still is!

The word AMPUTATION carries a lot of negative baggage. To use it when
referring to tail docking is to "load the dice" and try to emotively
sway opinions. The practice was not previously described as amputation,
so why try to redefine it now? Answer: to gain a rhetorical device. 
It certainly only means removal of a limb to your every day person who
naturally anthropomorphizes, applying the word first to the human form. 
When attempting to have an ethical discussion progress can only be
hindered by trying to smuggle in negative connotations. It is a sneaky
way of trying to morally blacken the practice before the practice has
been duly considered. 
Jackie Perkins
Veterinary Behaviour Consultant
Australia 

-----Original Message-----
From: Francis Burton [mailto:F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:19 PM
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Re: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by
philosphy depts; probably still is!

At 09:15 30/10/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
>AMPUTATION: Humans understand this word on its own to mean the removal
>of an arm or leg.

Or projecting body part - according to my understanding of the word.
According to my desk dictionary (Chambers, 1998), "amputate" has the
wider meaning: "to cut off (e.g. a limb)".

>We naturally apply the word to ourselves and we do not
>have tails (anthropomorphisation). The word does not apply to removal
of
>a tail, not in its original meaning.

Do you have a source for the original meaning? The word appears to be
from the Latin amputare, from amb- around, and -putare to lop.

>To amputate an arm or a leg is
>crippling. This happened a lot during wars etc. The word "amputation"
>sends cold shivers down the spine. It has extreme negative crippling
>connotations.

For me, it has a mainly clinical connotation.

>To apply this word to tail docking is an act of rhetoric
>as opposed to logic.

Well, that depends!

>Rhetorical argument is a very weak political
>argument form.

Agreed - we should all try to avoid lapsing into that mode.

>Do we use the word "amputation" when discussing the
>removal of an ear or a cancer? No.

Removal of an ear is an amputation; removal of a cancer is
probably not. The difference here is that an ear is a normal
part of protruding anatomy.

(Think: Is "Bobbitting" amputation?)

>Then why use it when referring to
>tail docking? 

Because that is what it is?

Francis





From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  5-NOV-2003 21:56:38.79
To:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "'Ray Stricklin'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Info on Torn Dew Claws

In my experience dew claw trauma is indeed common place, probably
certain breeds/conformations are more vulnerable. For example toy breeds
or any dogs with loosely connected dew claws may be more vulnerable. Dew
claw removal used to be routine in years gone by so of course injured
dew claws were never seen at a veterinary clinic; perhaps your dogs had
them removed. Our Corgis always had them removed though I was not aware
of that when I was very young. 
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu] 
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 3:57 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Info on Torn Dew Claws

Does anyone have access to a document on dew claw removal that is of a
similar type to the information posted by Andreas on tail docking of
dogs?

(I thought that the document on tail docking was quite good - and in
fact, I
may use it next semester in my animal welfare course, but I did wonder
about
the section that dismissed phantom pain as an issue.  There was no
mention
of work on neuroma formation in dogs that had been tail docked.  Has
there
been no research on whether or not neuromas form in these dogs?)

The reason I am asking about dew claw removal is that I had never
realized
how common the practice is in dogs.  And I have to acknowledge that my
knowledge of dogs is almost totally "practical" - and mostly from my
youth.
My family has probably had some 30 to 40 dogs during my lifetime - and
these
were all farm and/or hunting dogs of a variety of breed combinations
with
Collie and Shepard being the most common.  Few (maybe 8 to 10) were
"purebred" and these were Border Collies, Beagles and a couple of Blue
Tick
Hounds.  None of these were "house" dogs.  They all stayed outside and
were
basically totally "free ranging" dogs. i.e., almost never tied or
confined.
Until maybe some 15 years ago, these dogs primarily ate table scraps and
whatever they could scavenge.  They were expected to be working dogs
meaning
that when my brothers and I were younger they were used for hunting, and
a
number of them were also used to work cattle.  Basically all of them
were
also expected to provide sentential duty, and if necessary to fend off
predators (on domestic fowl, livestock, etc.) such as raccoons, skunks,
opossums, mink, and feral/stray dogs.  The terrain over which these dogs
ranged included riverbottom swamp land, pasture land, and upland
woodland.
Some of the areas had dense undergrowth of vines, briars, etc.  But with
the
exception of some limestone outcropping and stream gravel, there were
few
stones or large rocks.  Some of the dogs survived fights that were near
life
threatening from the cuts they received.  With the exception of rabies
shots
and broken limbs, these dogs did not have contact with a veterinarian.

Despite a vigorous life in rather rough terrain, to my knowledge, none
of
these dogs ever had a dew claw that was torn.  Possibly it did happen
and
was not noticed, but I would think that it was very unlikely that it
happened without being recognized.  Nor do I remember any of the dogs of
my
friends, neighbors, etc. whose dew claws were torn off.  And some of
these
dogs were used for activities that I would think very physically
demanding
for dew claws including night "fox hunting" (this involved going into
the
woodland at night, usually building a fire and then sitting and
listening to
the sounds of the dogs as they chased a fox, which to my knowledge was
never
caught.)

Yet, yesterday when I asked a class of undergrads if they had knowledge
of
dew claws being torn, well over half of the students had first hand
knowledge of a dog that had had a dew claw that became torn.  Several of
the
students have had experience working in a vet clinic which of course
accounts for some of the numbers - and I do not at all believe my class
was
a random sample.  But I nevertheless was quite surprised at the number
of
students who had owned dogs that had experienced a torn dew claw.  In
one
instance it involved a dog simply playing and running in the grass
around
the owner's house.

Is the tearing of dew claws more common today than it was in the past?
Is
it breed related?  Is it diet related?  Is somehow the skin of dogs that
are
house-bound or kept in confinement more likely to tear than the skin of
dogs
that live under "free range" conditions?  Do the dew claws of wild
canids
tear?

W.R. Stricklin





From:	IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol"  5-NOV-2003 22:12:41.69
To:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

Jackie
Perhaps you can explain this 'tirade' further, as I just do not follow your logic or the point of it; what 'rights' did you have in mind?  The right not to have unnecessary pain inflicted on them?  Who are these outsiders?  Outside what?  Are you suggesting that circumcision of humans (men and women) can be equated to tail-docking of dogs?  Is that physically?  Psychologically?  Ethically?  What do you mean by political correctness?  In what way does it make people conform?

Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences 
Department of Primary Industries

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] 
Sent:	Thursday, 6 November 2003 12:51 PM
To:	Petherick, Carol; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject:	"citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

If dogs are considered citizens, and given certain rights,
anthropomorphized, then they necessarily will be subjected to certain
human rituals too which may include tattooing tail docking dressing up
in pink ribbons etc etc etc. Why should a handful of "outsiders" dictate
what relatively harmless rituals are "good" and "evil"? No-one has been
able to coherently explain why tail docking is worse than circumcision.
Some humans willingly circumcise their babies. Their babies can not make
an informed consent. Should dogs be better protected (or more highly
regulated) than babies??
Circumcision was not banned, just regulated. Why could not tail docking
have been firstly more thoroughly researched, and secondly, regulated. I
have really had it with this attitude of banning whatever is not deemed
politically correct for today. I believe it is all about appearances,
for those motivated by political correctness. Political correctness is
all about pressuring people into conformity with some narrow fashion
ideal; it is the antithesis of academia enlightenment tolerance and
learning. I hope one day the tide of political correctness turns on
those who propagate it. 
Jackie Perkins


-----Original Message-----
From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:55 PM
To: oryctolagus; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
molecular biology?

Dear Heather
I suspect your last sentence provides the explanation.  I don't know the
full story (and sorry, don't have time to research it all), but I
strongly suspect that this experimental work has been marketed/sold on
the basis of the potential good it will do to humans/and or animals
(skin grafts, new organs/tissues grown to replace burned/missing parts)
and is acceptable to the public and those setting welfare/ethical
standards because the potential benefits outweigh the negatives (in
terms of negative impacts on animal welfare).  I find it hard to see how
tail-docking for cosmetic purposes can ever be justified, as there are
lots of negatives and no potential benefits for the animals.

Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences 
Department of Primary Industries

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	oryctolagus [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net] 
Sent:	Friday, 31 October 2003 11:57 AM
To:	applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject:	What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
molecular biology?

Why is everyone so upset about tail docking and removal of dew claws,
when molecular biologists in mainland China and here in the USA have
been busy doing such industry-supported things as attaching a baby rat's
head to the side of an adult (both lived) and in rabbits, removing the
rabbit's ear and growing new human shaped ear on a cartilage matrix
where the rabbit-ear used to be? (this has been done in at least two
instances by molecular biologists).  The one Lady business owner who
displayed such a rabbit at a convention went on to be a Dean at a
prominent California Business college (
http://members.aol.com/salaned/writings/engineer.htm  from a former
molecular biologist (Salk Institute among others:
http://members.aol.com/salaned/cyberplace.html)   She founded the
company Advanced Tissue Sciences, displayed a rabbit at a bioartificial
organs conference which had a human ear grafted in place of its own ear.
The other instance of a rabbit having a human ear grown on its body was
by Cao Yilin, a Shanghai researcher who is also head of the Laboratory
of Soft Tissue Engineering at America's University of Massachusetts
(he's now back in China).

Shouldn't there be more biologists and ethicists *screaming* about the
ethics in the tissue regeneration research fields?  There is stuff going
on there that makes Frankenstein look tame; and, the scientists in the
field seem apparently proud of it.  Would such a law protect rabbits
used in molecular biology research?  Aren't these very famous, very
prestigious molecular biologists "amoral"?  They hold high respected
posts in their communities.  The lady doctor above is revered for her
work in childrens' burn therapy.  

H.Mcmurray 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Beck <wheep@igrin.co.nz>
Sent: Oct 30, 2003 5:56 PM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: FW: tail docking
> - I assume this would be a judgement call best made by a Vet on a case
by
> case basis. The issue was tail docking, which I firmly believe to be
> ethically wrong - so why not keep it there rather than going off at a
> tangent?

I agree, but legislation which prohibits any "removal of body parts"
obviously
applies to "dew claws" too.  I'm not sure the ethical issues are really
so
very
different.  In both cases we are dealing with removal of a normally
functional
body part, which under certain circumstances, but not under others, may
be
liable to significant painful injury if not removed.  I don't wish to
appear
dense, but where's the difference?

Many veterinarians are not, I'm afraid, sufficiently familiar with the
realities
of working dogs to have a valid opinion on such matters.  At least in
this
country, the overwhelming majority of patients in the average practice
are
obese
family pets whose greatest athletic achievement is jumping on or off the
sofa. 
Those of us with high performance working dogs often travel hundreds of
miles to
find a veterinarian truly knowledgeable about their needs.

In the sighthounds with which I am most familiar I am opposed to the
removal
of
"dew claws" (front first digits) because they are functionally useful
and
because I disapprove of *any* unnecessary surgery, ablation or what
haveJohn
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com 

********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
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this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and 
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********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages 
(which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity 
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From:	IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au"  "Petherick, Carol"  5-NOV-2003 22:21:18.41
To:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: humans including animals in their social structures

Once again, I am at a loss as to your point here; some things are simple, some things are not - what could be more simple?  What has it got to do with holding opposing views?

Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences 
Department of Primary Industries

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] 
Sent:	Thursday, 6 November 2003 1:53 PM
To:	Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject:	RE: humans including animals in their social structures


You make everything sound soooo simple! Have you ever really tried to
see an issue from the other side? Those with opposing views are not
stupid. 
Jackie Perkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au] 
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 2:00 PM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: humans including animals in their social structures

Desexing is less of an ethical issue because it is not done for
mainly/purely cosmetic reasons; it is less of an ethical issue because
there are many positive aspects to desexing and the positives are
believed (by those who make the rules) to outweigh the negatives.

Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences 
Department of Primary Industries

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] 
Sent:	Thursday, 30 October 2003 10:02 AM
To:	Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject:	RE: humans including animals in their social structures

Your horses probably do not form part of your social group, but domestic
dogs certainly do. Their relationship is ambiguous between conspecific
and interspecific. Tail docking is no more drastic than tattoing,
circumcising, or piercing all of which are widely done to conspecifics
in human societies. We do not know if tail docking was worth banning or
not. It was done summarily without proper consideration or research. In
some Scandinavian and European countries the routine desexing of pet
dogs is banned. How is desexing less of an ethical issue than tail
docking? 
Jackie PErkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 8:15 AM
To: wheep@igrin.co.nz; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: humans including animals in their social structures

  I wonder when it was that our society started
thinking that it was OK to mutilate animals.  I have
been hearing a lot lately about the mutilation of
monkeys, just so they could become pets.  They are
pulling out all of their teeth and cutting off their
tail so that a diaper fits better.
  These are things that I had no idea was being done
until I got a computer and got on the Pheonix Exotics
list.  I didn't stay on that list very long.
  Life is so sad for some animals out there.
CeAnn
--- Andy Beck <wheep@igrin.co.nz> wrote:
> >People have always tattooed others in their social
> group, circumcised,
> >pierced,  etc etc etc. These are important social
> traditions and serve as
> >social adhesive. Tail docking is not prima facie
> evil as the propaganda >
> >tells us.<
> 
> 
> In what way is there any connection, ethical or
> otherwise, between what
> people choose to do to themselves and the
> involuntary removal of a useful
> body part from a member of another species? Either
> there is a clear train of
> logic or the issue is confused - intentionally or by
> dint of lack of
> critical reasoning.
> 
> Regards
> Andy Beck
> White Horse Equine Ethology Project
> 433 Wharepunga Rd
> RD3 Kaikohe
> Northland
> Aotearoa - New Zealand
> http://www.equine-behavior.com
> http://www.equine-social-behavior.org
> http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz
>  
> 
> 
> 


=====
CeAnn Lambert
Indiana Coyote Rescue Center
www.WolfPark.org/ICRC

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Exclusive Video Premiere - Britney Spears
http://launch.yahoo.com/promos/britneyspears/ 

********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages 
(which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity 
to which it is addressed.  If you are not the addressee any form of 
disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken 
or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised.  Opinions 
contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions 
of the Queensland Government and its authorities.  If you received 
this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and 
delete it from your computer system network. 

********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages 
(which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally 
privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity 
to which it is addressed.  If you are not the addressee any form of 
disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken 
or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised.  Opinions 
contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions 
of the Queensland Government and its authorities.  If you received 
this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and 
delete it from your computer system network. 

From:	IN%"emcounsell@telus.net"  "Elizabeth Counsell"  5-NOV-2003 22:21:20.03
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Bonsai Kittens

Hi there,

I was wondering if I could just ask a few questions regarding 'bonsai =
kittens'.  However, before I do this I would like to give a brief =
introduction on the subject as I am not sure how many people are =
familiar with this topic (as it was only recently brought to my =
attention).

Earlier today a friend asked me to look at this website: =
www.bonsaikitten.com   She is from Australia and wondered out of =
curiousity whether or not this 'art' was practiced in North America.  I =
had actually never heard of it before so I took a few minutes to review =
the website.  It seems that the author of this site is comparing the art =
of the bonsai plant to that of a kitten - he claims that a kitten can be =
'trimmed' by using foot and head binding.  So basically this is a kind =
of bodily modification.  He also notes that by physically constraining =
the animal you can cause it to take on the shape of whatever vessel it =
is in - he even goes so far as to say that this would be a more =
attractive shape.  He also states that recent research (he mentions the =
Scotsman and news organizations of which he links to one news article) =
has shown that people who keep unmodified cats are at risk for a host of =
debilitating mental disorders (schizophrenia in particular).  Upon =
reading the article in its entirety I realized that modified cats were =
not mentioned at all and that the author was merely making his own =
inferences (which I actually assumed in the first place).  Anyways, onto =
my question:

Does anyone know if there has been any research conducted regarding this =
type of bodily modification? (as the research the author makes reference =
to has nothing to do with 'bonsai kitten' modification but of feline =
parasites) =20

And, what is the general opinion regarding the ethics of such a =
practice? =20

Thank you for your time.
Sincerely,
Beth Counsell

From:	IN%"noofies@tir.com"  "Nancy"  6-NOV-2003 00:20:42.27
To:	IN%"emcounsell@telus.net"  "Elizabeth Counsell", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bonsai Kittens

Bonsai Kitten is a hoax.  Someone's sad idea of satire.

http://www.snopes.com/inboxer/outrage/bonsai.htm


Nancy
NeufVies' Penny From Heaven, deaf English Setter - CGC, TT, Therapy Dog
NeufVies' The Blizzard, deaf Dogo Argentino - CGC, TT, therapy dog
NeufVies' Graceful Glenys, deaf English Setter - CGC, therapy dog
NeufVies' Lumi Spot, deaf American Bulldog - CGC, therapy dog, local TV star
and the fosters at Miss Noofies' Charm School and Home for Wayward Doggies
http://catatonic.freeservers.com/penny/thedogs.html



At 11:27 PM 11/5/03, you wrote:
>Hi there,
>
>I was wondering if I could just ask a few questions regarding 'bonsai 
>kittens'.  However, before I do this I would like to give a brief 
>introduction on the subject as I am not sure how many people are familiar 
>with this topic (as it was only recently brought to my attention).
>
>Earlier today a friend asked me to look at this website: 
><http://www.bonsaikitten.com>www.bonsaikitten.com   She is from Australia 
>and wondered out of curiousity whether or not this 'art' was practiced in 
>North America.  I had actually never heard of it before so I took a few 
>minutes to review the website.  It seems that the author of this site is 
>comparing the art of the bonsai plant to that of a kitten - he claims that 
>a kitten can be 'trimmed' by using foot and head binding.  So basically 
>this is a kind of bodily modification.  He also notes that by physically 
>constraining the animal you can cause it to take on the shape of whatever 
>vessel it is in - he even goes so far as to say that this would be a more 
>attractive shape.  He also states that recent research (he mentions the 
>Scotsman and news organizations of which he links to one news article) has 
>shown that people who keep unmodified cats are at risk for a host of 
>debilitating mental disorders (schizophrenia in particular).  Upon reading 
>the article in its entirety I realized that modified cats were not 
>mentioned at all and that the author was merely making his own inferences 
>(which I actually assumed in the first place).  Anyways, onto my question:
>
>Does anyone know if there has been any research conducted regarding this 
>type of bodily modification? (as the research the author makes reference 
>to has nothing to do with 'bonsai kitten' modification but of feline 
>parasites)
>
>And, what is the general opinion regarding the ethics of such a practice?
>
>Thank you for your time.
>Sincerely,
>Beth Counsell
>
>


From:	IN%"minna.vuolle@datazug.ch"  "Minna Vuolle"  6-NOV-2003 01:38:01.22
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

Tail docking is not only a political issue. Dog's tail is important to dogs
for their ability to communicate. Here in Switzerland tail docking has been
forbidden already for many years.

Minna Vuolle




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Geiger" <gooddog@dodo.com.au>
To: "'Petherick, Carol'" <Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au>; <Sent: Thursday,
November 06, 2003 3:50 AM
Subject: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals


> If dogs are considered citizens, and given certain rights,
> anthropomorphized, then they necessarily will be subjected to certain
> human rituals too which may include tattooing tail docking dressing up
> in pink ribbons etc etc etc. Why should a handful of "outsiders" dictate
> what relatively harmless rituals are "good" and "evil"? No-one has been
> able to coherently explain why tail docking is worse than circumcision.
> Some humans willingly circumcise their babies. Their babies can not make
> an informed consent. Should dogs be better protected (or more highly
> regulated) than babies??
> Circumcision was not banned, just regulated. Why could not tail docking
> have been firstly more thoroughly researched, and secondly, regulated. I
> have really had it with this attitude of banning whatever is not deemed
> politically correct for today. I believe it is all about appearances,
> for those motivated by political correctness. Political correctness is
> all about pressuring people into conformity with some narrow fashion
> ideal; it is the antithesis of academia enlightenment tolerance and
> learning. I hope one day the tide of political correctness turns on
> those who propagate it.
> Jackie Perkins
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au]
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:55 PM
> To: oryctolagus; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: RE: What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
> molecular biology?
>
> Dear Heather
> I suspect your last sentence provides the explanation.  I don't know the
> full story (and sorry, don't have time to research it all), but I
> strongly suspect that this experimental work has been marketed/sold on
> the basis of the potential good it will do to humans/and or animals
> (skin grafts, new organs/tissues grown to replace burned/missing parts)
> and is acceptable to the public and those setting welfare/ethical
> standards because the potential benefits outweigh the negatives (in
> terms of negative impacts on animal welfare).  I find it hard to see how
> tail-docking for cosmetic purposes can ever be justified, as there are
> lots of negatives and no potential benefits for the animals.
>
> Carol
>
> Carol Petherick
> Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
> Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences
> Department of Primary Industries
>
> Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
> Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: oryctolagus [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Friday, 31 October 2003 11:57 AM
> To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> Subject: What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
> molecular biology?
>
> Why is everyone so upset about tail docking and removal of dew claws,
> when molecular biologists in mainland China and here in the USA have
> been busy doing such industry-supported things as attaching a baby rat's
> head to the side of an adult (both lived) and in rabbits, removing the
> rabbit's ear and growing new human shaped ear on a cartilage matrix
> where the rabbit-ear used to be? (this has been done in at least two
> instances by molecular biologists).  The one Lady business owner who
> displayed such a rabbit at a convention went on to be a Dean at a
> prominent California Business college (
> http://members.aol.com/salaned/writings/engineer.htm  from a former
> molecular biologist (Salk Institute among others:
> http://members.aol.com/salaned/cyberplace.html)   She founded the
> company Advanced Tissue Sciences, displayed a rabbit at a bioartificial
> organs conference which had a human ear grafted in place of its own ear.
> The other instance of a rabbit having a human ear grown on its body was
> by Cao Yilin, a Shanghai researcher who is also head of the Laboratory
> of Soft Tissue Engineering at America's University of Massachusetts
> (he's now back in China).
>
> Shouldn't there be more biologists and ethicists *screaming* about the
> ethics in the tissue regeneration research fields?  There is stuff going
> on there that makes Frankenstein look tame; and, the scientists in the
> field seem apparently proud of it.  Would such a law protect rabbits
> used in molecular biology research?  Aren't these very famous, very
> prestigious molecular biologists "amoral"?  They hold high respected
> posts in their communities.  The lady doctor above is revered for her
> work in childrens' burn therapy.
>
> H.Mcmurray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Beck <wheep@igrin.co.nz>
> Sent: Oct 30, 2003 5:56 PM
> To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: FW: tail docking
> > - I assume this would be a judgement call best made by a Vet on a case
> by
> > case basis. The issue was tail docking, which I firmly believe to be
> > ethically wrong - so why not keep it there rather than going off at a
> > tangent?
>
> I agree, but legislation which prohibits any "removal of body parts"
> obviously
> applies to "dew claws" too.  I'm not sure the ethical issues are really
> so
> very
> different.  In both cases we are dealing with removal of a normally
> functional
> body part, which under certain circumstances, but not under others, may
> be
> liable to significant painful injury if not removed.  I don't wish to
> appear
> dense, but where's the difference?
>
> Many veterinarians are not, I'm afraid, sufficiently familiar with the
> realities
> of working dogs to have a valid opinion on such matters.  At least in
> this
> country, the overwhelming majority of patients in the average practice
> are
> obese
> family pets whose greatest athletic achievement is jumping on or off the
> sofa.
> Those of us with high performance working dogs often travel hundreds of
> miles to
> find a veterinarian truly knowledgeable about their needs.
>
> In the sighthounds with which I am most familiar I am opposed to the
> removal
> of
> "dew claws" (front first digits) because they are functionally useful
> and
> because I disapprove of *any* unnecessary surgery, ablation or what
> haveJohn
> -- 
> Dr. John Burchard
> Tepe Gawra Salukis
> http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
> saluqi@ix.netcom.com
>
> ********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
> The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages
> (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally
> privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity
> to which it is addressed.  If you are not the addressee any form of
> disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken
> or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised.  Opinions
> contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> of the Queensland Government and its authorities.  If you received
> this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and
> delete it from your computer system network.
>
>
>



From:	IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk"  "Moira Harris"  6-NOV-2003 04:13:10.19
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Amputation

Dear Jackie and all,

I disagree that the word 'amputation' generally only refers to removal 
of a limb, and that it always carries negative connotations.  
Amputation can and does occur accidentally, for example as a result of 
a car accident.  If I trapped my hand in a door I might (ouch!) 
accidentally amputate a finger.  Have you read John Irving's "A Prayer 
for Owen Meany", in which a young man, assisted by his friend, 
amputates one of his fingers using a circular saw in order to avoid 
miltary service?  Strange, yes, but not really negative.  Yesterday my 
nine-year-old came home from school having learned about Vincent van 
Gogh who, as a consequence of his altered state of mind, amputated his 
own ear.... the left one, I believe.  Also strange, but ....

I would go and look up 'amputation' in the dictionary, but I do think 
that throwing around definitions can lead us up the path to unhelpful 
pedantry.  Plus I can't find my dictionary. 

Best wishes,
- Moira

(p.s. Jackie, I do think that posting 9 messages to applied-ethology in 
succession smacks of 'ranting', and I suspect this kind of practice 
might be one reason why some people are becoming disenchanted with the 
list)
(p.p.s. I am politically correct and proud of it.  Rather than 'straw-
man', could you please say 'straw-person' in future?  Thanks.)


Quoting Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au>:

> The word AMPUTATION carries a lot of negative baggage. To use it
> when
> referring to tail docking is to "load the dice" and try to emotively
> sway opinions. The practice was not previously described as
> amputation,
> so why try to redefine it now? Answer: to gain a rhetorical device. 
> It certainly only means removal of a limb to your every day person
> who
> naturally anthropomorphizes, applying the word first to the human
> form. 
> When attempting to have an ethical discussion progress can only be
> hindered by trying to smuggle in negative connotations. It is a
> sneaky
> way of trying to morally blacken the practice before the practice
> has
> been duly considered. 
> Jackie Perkins
> Veterinary Behaviour Consultant
> Australia 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francis Burton [mailto:F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:19 PM
> To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: Re: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by
> philosphy depts; probably still is!
> 
> At 09:15 30/10/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
> >AMPUTATION: Humans understand this word on its own to mean the
> removal
> >of an arm or leg.
> 
> Or projecting body part - according to my understanding of the word.
> According to my desk dictionary (Chambers, 1998), "amputate" has the
> wider meaning: "to cut off (e.g. a limb)".
> 
> >We naturally apply the word to ourselves and we do not
> >have tails (anthropomorphisation). The word does not apply to
> removal
> of
> >a tail, not in its original meaning.
> 
> Do you have a source for the original meaning? The word appears to
> be
> from the Latin amputare, from amb- around, and -putare to lop.
> 
> >To amputate an arm or a leg is
> >crippling. This happened a lot during wars etc. The word
> "amputation"
> >sends cold shivers down the spine. It has extreme negative
> crippling
> >connotations.
> 
> For me, it has a mainly clinical connotation.
> 
> >To apply this word to tail docking is an act of rhetoric
> >as opposed to logic.
> 
> Well, that depends!
> 
> >Rhetorical argument is a very weak political
> >argument form.
> 
> Agreed - we should all try to avoid lapsing into that mode.
> 
> >Do we use the word "amputation" when discussing the
> >removal of an ear or a cancer? No.
> 
> Removal of an ear is an amputation; removal of a cancer is
> probably not. The difference here is that an ear is a normal
> part of protruding anatomy.
> 
> (Think: Is "Bobbitting" amputation?)
> 
> >Then why use it when referring to
> >tail docking? 
> 
> Because that is what it is?
> 
> Francis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-------------------------------------

Dr. Moira Harris

Animal Behaviour and Welfare Group
Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science 
University of Bristol
Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk

Ecology and Epidemiology Group
Dept. Biological Sciences
University of Warwick
Moira.Harris@warwick.ac.uk



From:	IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk"  "R. Rodd"  6-NOV-2003 04:35:27.15
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: paradigms

On Thu, 6 Nov 2003, Geiger wrote:

> I agree, and you would be more up-to-date with these readings than I
> since I do not work in Academe. But I do feel that Descartes is
> needlessly cited in current ethical "research" in an effort to set up a
> straw-man argument for the opposing view. Classical Cartesian dualism is
> waaaaay out of date. If tail docking is so clearly wrong or evil, why
> weaken your position by setting up the opposition's position using
> straw-man arguments? 
> Jackie Perkins
> 
Unfortunately there most certainly are modern philosophers who argue that
animals don't have feelings:
See, for example, "Brute Experience" by Peter Carruthers (Journal of
Philosophy, 86 (5) pp. 258-9 (May 1989).

This starts off "The question whether brutes have experiences has been
granted as obvious in recent times, and in one sense of the term
'experience' no doubt it is so. But not, I shall argue, in the sense that
makes their experiences an appropriate object of moral concern"

 ----------------------------------------
Rosemary Rodd <rr25@cam.ac.uk> 
Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre
Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA          01223 335029


From:	IN%"orion1432@juno.com"  "D.B. Cameron"  6-NOV-2003 04:41:17.93
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	IN%"orion1432@juno.com"
Subj:	Fw: RE: de sexing is a mutilation too

Jackie,

Well stated. 

I was about to ask why ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal
is
considered by many to be unethical and/or mutilations, when (probably)
these same people all but demand far more brutal, and far more
mutilating
castrations and ovary removal . . . and currently at a very young age.
And these people make no mention of the fact that this de-sexing surgery
is far more likely to cause long term behavior changes including
guaranteed sexual behavior changes.

The usual excuse is that the ends justify the means, but that concept is
about as unethical as there is. The Nazis tried it and got hung in
Nuremburg.

Comments?


                   DBC



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:49:02 +1000 Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> writes:
> Desexing described in detail would sound just as brutal!
> Jackie Perkins 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin Walker [mailto:coape@nildram.co.uk] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:58 AM
> To: Applied Ethology Network
> Subject: RE-More on mutilations
> 
> 
> When the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons ruled that docking 
> should
> not be performed by its Registered Members I complied. 
> 
> I am bound by a code of ethics, which is not optional. 
> 
> To be so bound is be professional and to be worthy of trust.
> 
> It was highly inconvenient, as I had performed this act when asked 
> in
> the past. Among those denied this service were old clients who had 
> come
> to me after operations, which were sometimes fatal, attended by 
> undue
> haemorrhage and damage by chemical cautery.
> 
> As a matter of interest, historical as it now is, the technique I
> devised addressed the complaints and mishaps of the past.
> 
> At around 2 to 3 weeks of age, fit and likely pups were operated 
> upon in
> this manner.
> 
> The dam was out of earshot of the pups crying.
> 
> The technique was to crush the tail at the required length with the 
> jaws
> of piglet tooth cutters with the cutting edges filed flat. The 
> closure
> was slow so as not to cut by rather crush in the manner of a 
> burdizzo.
> 
> The piercing alarm call resembled that emitted by a pup what was 
> being
> squashed or hurt by any means.
> 
> The jaws on the clippers there held closed to a full two minutes by 
> the
> clock.
> 
> The crying invariable ceased after a short time. For about a minute 
> and
> a half there would be no sound and the puppies would seem to be 
> asleep.
> 
> The redundant tail was then twisted with a rotary movement very 
> slowly
> until detached. The pressure of the closed clipper was maintained 
> for a
> few more seconds prior to release. 
> 
> There would be no bleeding or further crying. Returned to the warm 
> box
> the pups slept.
> 
> By 1990 there were only a half dozen "breeders" in my Practice as I 
> had
> effectively expelled those who required elective caesarians, bred
> extremely deformed types and were of a mind to dictate to me their 
> terms
> and fees1
> 
> My last and longest client was a breed of Pembroke Corgis who was
> insistent
> that my method was the best she had encountered. Furthermore, she
> convinced me that puppies "mutilated" (if you wish) in this manner 
> could
> be identified by a straight "top-line".
> 
> The alternative method favoured by home dockers and I must say, by 
> the
> malcontents and rebels of my profession after the Ruling, was the 
> rubber
> band. 
> 
> The banded pups do indeed have a different profile to the rump. The
> lower spine is curved downwards. It my sincere belief that the
> discomfort of protracted iscaemia can induce a postural deformity at 
> a
> time when the pups are growing very fast indeed.
> 
> Finally, I was convinced that a lengthy period of pain and a slowing 
> of
> growth attended the use of the agricultural banding technique.
> 
> Since "the Ruling", I have not performed this and now describe it as 
> a
> curiosity or relic of the past.
> 
> Why do it at all?
> 
> The very small number of injured tails (or claws for that matter) in 
> my
> records and recollection of 40 years cannot be stretched to justify
> routine ablation of tails or dewclaws. 
> 
> Latterly the Practice abounded with natural undocked dogs of all 
> types.
> 
> The simple issue here is the tyranny of custom and fashion.
> 
> (The postural deformity theory could have been tested by recording, 
> and
> measurement. Perhaps there are unreconstructed barbarians who would
> undertake such a study!) 
> 
> 
> Robin Walker
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 


      ^   ^          D. B. Cameron, DVM              Animal Behavior
Clinic
  <  \    /  >      15353 N. Bloomfield Road     Nevada City, CA 95959

      
       !   !                                           530.265.9341

     
        ..

    
              Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what ships
are for.

From:	IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk"  "Francis Burton"  6-NOV-2003 05:24:24.90
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: desexing is a mutilation too

At 13:53 06/11/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
>If the problem is merely a practical one involving pain, then analgesia
>is indicated.

Presumably this would apply to long-term pain too.

Does anyone know whether tail truncation (how's that for a
neutral term?) has consequences in terms of chronic pain?
I think it is reasonable to accept that such pain may be
present, by neurological extrapolation from humans' phantom
limb pain experiences.

Francis


From:	IN%"christina.umstaetter@wzw.tum.de"  "Umstaetter, Christina"  6-NOV-2003 05:50:48.58
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	AW: desexing is a mutilation too

I think we can't assume that the dogs have no phantom pain because the
biological basis is nearly the same. But I have read that people have less
phantom pain if the removal ist done with anaesthesia.

Christina
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----
Dr. Christina Umstatter
Technische Universitat Munchen
Wissenschaftszentrum Weihenstephan
Department fur Biogene Rohstoffe und Technologie der Landnutzung
Lehrstuhl fuer Landtechnik
Am Staudengarten 2
D-85354 Freising-Weihenstephan
Tel:  +49 (0)8161 / 71-3884
Fax:  +49 (0)8161 / 71-3895
christina.umstaetter@wzw.tum.de <mailto:christina.umstaetter@wzw.tum.de>
<http://www.wzw.tum.de/> http://www.tec.wzw.tum.de/landtech/
<http://www.tec.wzw.tum.de/landtech/>  <http://www.wzw.tum.de/landtec/>
----------------------------------------------------------------------------
-----



-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: Francis Burton [mailto:F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 6. November 2003 12:26
An: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Betreff: RE: desexing is a mutilation too


At 13:53 06/11/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
>If the problem is merely a practical one involving pain, then analgesia
>is indicated.

Presumably this would apply to long-term pain too.

Does anyone know whether tail truncation (how's that for a
neutral term?) has consequences in terms of chronic pain?
I think it is reasonable to accept that such pain may be
present, by neurological extrapolation from humans' phantom
limb pain experiences.

Francis



From:	IN%"mary@fusiondesignuk.com"  "mary doran"  6-NOV-2003 07:10:58.60
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Info on Torn Dew Claws

Thats exactly my concern.That if in fact as many dew claws ARE removed at
birth and have been for many years as we suspect , then any vets claims that
they do not receive cases of torn dew claws as evidence that it does NOT
happen to fully clawed dogs is invalid as a possible explanation would
appear to be that torn dew claws do not happen with as much frequency as the
breeds affected most by torn dew claws do in fact have them removed at
birth.

Mary Doran


From:	IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk"  "Robin Walker"  6-NOV-2003 07:24:42.26
To:	IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk"  "'Francis Burton'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: desexing is a mutilation too

Dear Francis,

There is plenty on the Net about phantom limb pain.

I have always felt that the size of the store of sensory and
proprioceptive pain memory was crucial. The "homunculus" used to
illustrate the cerebral mapping of sensation seemed to give an idea of
relative scale of significance. 

I was in Newcastle at a symposium held by the Veterinary Anesthetists
some years ago. This was a meeting were the new ideas about the
experience and persistent memory of pain had their first major
veterinary airing.

I recall discussing (with Alex Livingstone) by views on phantom limb
memory. The descriptions of the slow mutation of the lost limb through
stages of shrinking and position had prompted me to wonder if a great
store of acquired sensory and proproceptive memory was slowly decaying
and shrinking in proportion to its original size.

I devised a canunculus and a felunculus in cartoon form to acculturate
the species differences in pain awareness. 

It transpires that the mobile and prehensile areas abrogate the largest
amount of brain share but significant foci accrue to teeth and sex
organs. Regale yourselves with accounts of phantom teeth and penises!

Pain Management in Animals eds. Paul Flecknell and Avril
Waterman-Pearson, Saunders, 2000,ISBN 0 7020 1767 1, is a very handy
source.

I doubt that the dew claw or the gonad, in animals, can  match the
opportunities for sensory memory that we Primates own and over-use (G)

Robin Walker

-----Original Message-----
From: Francis Burton [mailto:F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk] 
Sent: 06 November 2003 11:26
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: desexing is a mutilation too

At 13:53 06/11/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
>If the problem is merely a practical one involving pain, then analgesia
>is indicated.

Presumably this would apply to long-term pain too.

Does anyone know whether tail truncation (how's that for a
neutral term?) has consequences in terms of chronic pain?
I think it is reasonable to accept that such pain may be
present, by neurological extrapolation from humans' phantom
limb pain experiences.

Francis




From:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin"  6-NOV-2003 08:08:07.29
To:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician.

Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all about "doing the right
thing."

Cutting off the tail of an animal solely for purposes of giving pleasure to
humans is _not_ doing "the right thing" for animals.

This is not a "straw man argument."  Nor is the statement one that could be
said to be "political."  The statement has to do with "doing the right
thing" for animals.  It is a straightforward statement about ethics.  And it
is not a statement that is to be discussed only by persons who claim ethics
as their profession.  All ("normal," adult, etc.) humans have the ability to
engage in moral reasoning.  Most every modern person who has seriously
studied, written and(or) thought about this ability has concluded that we
humans, therefore, are burdened with the responsibility/obligation of using
this ability.

Ethics is absolutely something that we must learn about through interactions
with others - and I would very much argue that we are individually obligated
to expand our knowledge about formal ethics.  But ultimately we are to use
this ability to reason about everyday issues having to do ethics and
morality in order to bring about "doing the right thing" - even if doing the
right thing conflicts with actions that would beneficially serve us
individually, financially, professionally, or otherwise (but taking such a
position, I would argue, must be done within the bounds of lawful, and in
some cases, even pragmatic, bounds).

I would suggest that anyone who believes that it is morally acceptable to
(surgically, mechanically, etc.) alter the appearance of animals solely for
the sake of attaining human pleasure should present the ethical basis for
their beliefs.  And I certainly would believe that a good starting point for
persons wishing to pursue this endeavor would be to work with a professional
ethicist.  I would indeed like to see the argument put forth by a person
formally trained in ethics for such a position.

(And by the way, I am not a mathematician but I am the research advisor to a
student who will receive his PhD degree in Applied Mathematics at the end of
this semester.  While I am not a mathematician, I most certainly do not
hesitate to use the tools available from mathematics and to work in
collaboration with persons who claim mathematics as their profession.  And
the same is true for ethics.)

W.R. Stricklin


-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:55 PM
To: 'Ray Stricklin'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Cc: Rachel Bowater
Subject: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT
make one a mathematician.


I suspect that philosophy depts are still the only place teaching formal
ethics. A sound basis in formal ethics would orientate the mind
correctly for contemplating specific issues. I have rarely seen applied
ethics by various depts even vaguely resemble formal ethics. Such
courses in applied ethics, without a formal basis, resemble political
arguments with moralistic overtones. What a parody of formal ethics!
Being capable of adding up does not qualify one to be a mathematician.
So too ethics is a subject area all its own and should be treated as
such. One needs specific learning to do it well! A BVSc or PhD does not
cut it. That is evident.
Those depts or individuals endeavouring to teach or publish applied
ethics should first acquire a basic education in ethics. Ethics is about
reasonableness, truth, equality, fairness, and most of all correctly
understanding various views at their strongest, not creating straw-man
arguments for the other side then proceeding to set them alight! Such
contempt for opposing views is rife in applied ethics and only furthers
ignorance. It is not till one understands their opponent's side so
thoroughly that they are seduced by it, that one is in a position to
fully criticize it. I have rarely seen such understanding displayed in
any of the so-called applied veterinary ethics arguments about tail
docking. They lack the mental tools obtainable from the study of formal
ethics. They appear to know so little about their subject that they are
unaware of their ignorance.
Jackie Perkins
Veterinary Behaviour Consultant
Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:04 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by
philosphy depts; probably still is!

A question raised below asks, "Where other than philosophy departments
is
ethics taught today?"  The answer is, "There are attempts to introduce
ethics in essentially every department of an up-to-date university!"

Check out of some of the hits from GOOGLE with the key words "ethics"
and
"NSF"  (NSF is the USA National Science Foundation, which funds a number
of
grants each year with the mission of introducing of ethics into "all"
science, medical and engineering courses.) Below are a few examples of
funded projects:

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/newsarch/1998/Mar98/bioethic.htm
CORVALLIS - Oregon State University has received a grant from the
National
Science Foundation to hold a National Bioethics Institute this summer to
help faculty from OSU and from around the country integrate ethics into
their science courses.
Only 30 faculty will be admitted into the institute - about half from
OSU
and the rest chosen from applications around the country.
The institute is one of three that the National Science Foundation will
fund
on bioethics during 1998-99, according to Courtney Campbell, director of
OSU's Program for Ethics, Science and the Environment.
"The relationship between ethics and science is becoming more pronounced
-
and is under greater scrutiny - than ever before," Campbell said. "It is
important to discuss these issues with students, but when ethics
professors
go into a science classroom, they don't necessarily have the credibility
with students, and it gives the appearance that ethics are peripheral to
the
'regular' curriculum.
"What we hope to do is begin training science faculty how to integrate
the
teaching of ethics throughout the curriculum."
Among the topics planned: ethical issues surrounding biotechnology, the
renewed interest in land ethics and natural resources, treatment of
animals,
and the role of religion.

http://www.cse.nd.edu/~kwb/nsf-ufe/
The field of "Ethics and Computing" encompasses a lot of territory.
Courses
in this area may be taught in programs such as Information Systems,
Computer
Science, Computer Engineering and Electrical Engineering. Material in
this
area may be taught as a stand-alone course and/or as modules in courses
throughout the curriculum. Whatever teaching responsibility you have
related
to this area, the materials here should help you to teach ethics and
computing in a way that provides rigorous, relevant and effective
learning
experiences for your students.

http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/ses/sdest/start.htm
The Societal Dimensions of Engineering, Science, and Technology (SDEST)
program contains two components: Ethics and Values Studies, and Research
on
Science and Technology. The program announcement is NSF 01-152. Target
dates
for submitting proposals are February 1 and August 1. In SDEST, the
Ethics
and Values Studies (EVS) component focuses on developing and
transmitting
knowledge about ethical and value dimensions associated with science,
engineering, and technology




-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 6:16 PM
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by philosphy
depts; probably still is!


Well then where are those arguments? And where is the research? The
propaganda put out by some of my colleagues was not of a publishable
standard yet somehow was published...it would not have passed
introductory ethics though may have obtained a pass in politics. I think
you are confusing veterinary ethics with veterinary politics. Ethics is
NOT spelled P_O_L_I_T_I_C_S! Why don't any practicing veterinary
ethicists display a basic education in ethics? I think you are very
confused about what ethics is. Why not take a course in basic ethics at
one of the main universities and find out? None of us should ever think
we know it all. A veterinary degree, even a PhD does NOT confer ethics
capabilities. I am constantly amazed that the public would ask doctors
et






From:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin"  6-NOV-2003 08:35:52.83
To:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: norms and mores;

But surely no one would argue that causing the death of another human is
morally the same as tail-docking!  I would hope that no one today would
contend that these two acts are of equal magnitude.  The statement (below)
comparing the "punishment" administered for these acts is a statement about
the (apparent) unfairness of the judicial system - not a statement about
ethics per se - not a statement about the acts themselves.

And I would hope that a person educated and trained as a veterinary surgeon
would consider cutting off the tail of an animal as being more than simply
an issue about fashion and politics.  Surely a person within the veterinary
profession would contend that removal of an animal's tail has something to
do with the animal itself and thus is not just a question about what is
important to humans (fashion and politics).  Therefore, I would hope that a
veterinarian would contend that taildocking does indeed involve the question
of humaneness to animals.

W.R. Stricklin



-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:51 PM
To: 'Ray Stricklin'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: norms and mores;


You commented previously that it was silly to include tail-docking in
the same category as murder? I do not believe so. Look at some facts. If
I were to tail dock now I would be fined $7500 and very likely be struck
off from the Veterinary Surgeon's register and lose my liveliehood. If I
were found responsible for some negligent death or injury, say in a
motor vehicle accident, I would get off much more lightly; probably
receive community service.
Sociologists divide breaches of the social code into two categories:
norms and mores. Breaching a norm is not punishable at law eg picking
ones nose in public. Breaching a more is punishable at law eg murder,
rape, speeding, tail docking. Previously tail docking was not even a
norm. It has artificially evolved from accepted practice to more in the
blink of an eye. I do not believe humaneness has anything to do with it.
It is all about politics and fashion.
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 3:08 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Human controlling animals


The position of Lorenz and other ethologists represented a paradigm
shift
relative to the views of either Descartes or Watson.  No one familiar
with
the literature would attempt to argue otherwise.

W.R. Stricklin


-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 7:22 PM
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Human controlling animals


I do not think Descartes or Watson believed animals had no feelings; no
soul in a religious sense perhaps, but then most religion still believes
this to this very day! Reading Descartes or Watson and superficially
understanding them may lead one to this conclusion.
Jackie Perkins






From:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin"  6-NOV-2003 08:53:57.26
To:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Info on Torn Dew Claws

I can state with certainty that _none_ (with the possible exception of the
original Border Collie bitch) had their dew claws removed at birth.  I know
this because the majority of the pups were from litters originating from
dogs of family and/or friends.  These were not house pets and they certainly
were not "show dogs."  As I said, these dogs had essentially no contact with
a veterinarian - because much of the time (30 to 50 years ago) the nearest
vet was 60 to 100 miles away - and with the exception of broken limbs for
dogs, vet costs were generally considered necessary/possible only for
horses, mules, and sometimes cattle.

W.R. Stricklin

-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:56 PM
To: 'Ray Stricklin'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Info on Torn Dew Claws


In my experience dew claw trauma is indeed common place, probably
certain breeds/conformations are more vulnerable. For example toy breeds
or any dogs with loosely connected dew claws may be more vulnerable. Dew
claw removal used to be routine in years gone by so of course injured
dew claws were never seen at a veterinary clinic; perhaps your dogs had
them removed. Our Corgis always had them removed though I was not aware
of that when I was very young.
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 3:57 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Info on Torn Dew Claws

Does anyone have access to a document on dew claw removal that is of a
similar type to the information posted by Andreas on tail docking of
dogs?



From:	IN%"finklerh@post.tau.ac.il"  "Hilit Finkler"  6-NOV-2003 10:53:04.50
To:	IN%"orion1432@juno.com"  "D.B. Cameron", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied-Ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: RE: de sexing is a mutilation too

Ethically speaking you are correct, but in real life there are too many cats
and dogs (our fault of course)
and this is one of the more humane ways to control their numbers!
What is the aim of ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal, animal
welfare wise?

-----Original Message-----
From: D.B. Cameron [mailto:orion1432@juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:34 PM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Cc: orion1432@juno.com
Subject: Fw: RE: de sexing is a mutilation too



Jackie,

Well stated.

I was about to ask why ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal
is
considered by many to be unethical and/or mutilations, when (probably)
these same people all but demand far more brutal, and far more
mutilating
castrations and ovary removal . . . and currently at a very young age.
And these people make no mention of the fact that this de-sexing surgery
is far more likely to cause long term behavior changes including
guaranteed sexual behavior changes.

The usual excuse is that the ends justify the means, but that concept is
about as unethical as there is. The Nazis tried it and got hung in
Nuremburg.

Comments?


                   DBC



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:49:02 +1000 Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> writes:
> Desexing described in detail would sound just as brutal!
> Jackie Perkins
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin Walker [mailto:coape@nildram.co.uk]
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:58 AM
> To: Applied Ethology Network
> Subject: RE-More on mutilations
>
>
> When the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons ruled that docking
> should
> not be performed by its Registered Members I complied.
>
> I am bound by a code of ethics, which is not optional.
>
> To be so bound is be professional and to be worthy of trust.
>
> It was highly inconvenient, as I had performed this act when asked
> in
> the past. Among those denied this service were old clients who had
> come
> to me after operations, which were sometimes fatal, attended by
> undue
> haemorrhage and damage by chemical cautery.
>
> As a matter of interest, historical as it now is, the technique I
> devised addressed the complaints and mishaps of the past.
>
> At around 2 to 3 weeks of age, fit and likely pups were operated
> upon in
> this manner.
>
> The dam was out of earshot of the pups crying.
>
> The technique was to crush the tail at the required length with the
> jaws
> of piglet tooth cutters with the cutting edges filed flat. The
> closure
> was slow so as not to cut by rather crush in the manner of a
> burdizzo.
>
> The piercing alarm call resembled that emitted by a pup what was
> being
> squashed or hurt by any means.
>
> The jaws on the clippers there held closed to a full two minutes by
> the
> clock.
>
> The crying invariable ceased after a short time. For about a minute
> and
> a half there would be no sound and the puppies would seem to be
> asleep.
>
> The redundant tail was then twisted with a rotary movement very
> slowly
> until detached. The pressure of the closed clipper was maintained
> for a
> few more seconds prior to release.
>
> There would be no bleeding or further crying. Returned to the warm
> box
> the pups slept.
>
> By 1990 there were only a half dozen "breeders" in my Practice as I
> had
> effectively expelled those who required elective caesarians, bred
> extremely deformed types and were of a mind to dictate to me their
> terms
> and fees1
>
> My last and longest client was a breed of Pembroke Corgis who was
> insistent
> that my method was the best she had encountered. Furthermore, she
> convinced me that puppies "mutilated" (if you wish) in this manner
> could
> be identified by a straight "top-line".
>
> The alternative method favoured by home dockers and I must say, by
> the
> malcontents and rebels of my profession after the Ruling, was the
> rubber
> band.
>
> The banded pups do indeed have a different profile to the rump. The
> lower spine is curved downwards. It my sincere belief that the
> discomfort of protracted iscaemia can induce a postural deformity at
> a
> time when the pups are growing very fast indeed.
>
> Finally, I was convinced that a lengthy period of pain and a slowing
> of
> growth attended the use of the agricultural banding technique.
>
> Since "the Ruling", I have not performed this and now describe it as
> a
> curiosity or relic of the past.
>
> Why do it at all?
>
> The very small number of injured tails (or claws for that matter) in
> my
> records and recollection of 40 years cannot be stretched to justify
> routine ablation of tails or dewclaws.
>
> Latterly the Practice abounded with natural undocked dogs of all
> types.
>
> The simple issue here is the tyranny of custom and fashion.
>
> (The postural deformity theory could have been tested by recording,
> and
> measurement. Perhaps there are unreconstructed barbarians who would
> undertake such a study!)
>
>
> Robin Walker
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


      ^   ^          D. B. Cameron, DVM              Animal Behavior
Clinic
  <  \    /  >      15353 N. Bloomfield Road     Nevada City, CA 95959


       !   !                                           530.265.9341


        ..


              Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what ships
are for.


From:	IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com"  "John Burchard"  6-NOV-2003 12:10:17.62
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology list"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bonsai Kittens

> "Petherick, Carol" wrote:
> 
> Beth
> 
> This is a scam – there is no such thing.  The site was established by students
> – a lot of people were taken-in by it.

I'd call it a hoax rather than a scam ... somebody's idea of a joke ... and at
least in its original form (I haven't looked at it in a couple of years) some of
it was rather funny in a macabre sort of way.  Kitten as Klein bottle, etc.  A
Klein bottle is a standard figure, in the branch of mathematics called topology,
which has no "inside" or "outside" because what starts out as one becomes the
other as you trace it around.  In a way it is the three dimensional counterpart
of a Moebius strip.

Biologically it is fairly obvious such things wouldn't work, the animals would
die immediately, and I dare say readers were expected to notice that unreality,
and not take it too seriously.

John
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com



From:	IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com"  "Cecilia Lambert"  6-NOV-2003 13:14:31.96
To:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician.

--- Ray Stricklin <wrstrick@umd.edu> wrote:
> Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all
> about "doing the right
> thing."
> 
.Dr. Stricklin,
  How refreshing to see that phrase.  Most decisions
we have to make really can be made simple by thinking
of that phrase before making the decision.
CeAnn

=====
CeAnn Lambert
Indiana Coyote Rescue Center
www.WolfPark.org/ICRC

__________________________________
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From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger"  6-NOV-2003 14:02:12.03
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	new legal site for professionals

Hi,

I just checked out the site www.animallegalreports.com and am quite 
impressed.  Sample legal docs and decisions are there, members are charged a 
subscription fee to access all text of all reports.  Samples I read include 
decisions about tail docking, circuses, ear clipping, dog shows, etc.
     Jo

_________________________________________________________________
Is your computer infected with a virus?  Find out with a FREE computer virus 
scan from McAfee.  Take the FreeScan now! 
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From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger"  6-NOV-2003 15:15:38.36
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bonsai Kittens

You wrote:

Beth
This is a scam - there is no such thing.  The site was established by 
students - a lot of people were taken-in by it.

Carol

======the site does look ridiculous and I am blush to be so gullible.  Wow, 
what a day, getting upset over nothing and being added to Andy Beck's 
growing AutoDelete file! And I had sent him a really friendly note that he 
won't see now--really Andy, I did :)
I think I'll take a break and meditate
     Jo

_________________________________________________________________
Compare high-speed Internet plans, starting at $26.95.  
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)


From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger"  6-NOV-2003 15:21:47.02
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	determining phantom pain

You wrote:

At 13:53 06/11/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
 >If the problem is merely a practical one involving pain, then analgesia
 >is indicated.

Presumably this would apply to long-term pain too.  Does anyone know whether 
tail truncation (how's that for a neutral term?) has consequences in terms 
of chronic pain?  I think it is reasonable to accept that such pain may be 
present, by neurological extrapolation from humans' phantom limb pain 
experiences.
Francis
======would a resolution to this question be to compare brain scans of 
humans to other animals?  Does anyone know what occurs in the brain of a 
human with recent amputation?
         Jo

_________________________________________________________________
MSN Shopping upgraded for the holidays!  Snappier product search... 
http://shopping.msn.com


From:	IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com"  "John Burchard"  6-NOV-2003 15:27:33.53
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology list"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: desexing is a mutilation too

Francis Burton wrote:

> At 13:53 06/11/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
> >If the problem is merely a practical one involving pain, then analgesia
> >is indicated.
> 
> Presumably this would apply to long-term pain too.
> 
> Does anyone know whether tail truncation (how's that for a
> neutral term?) has consequences in terms of chronic pain?
> I think it is reasonable to accept that such pain may be
> present, by neurological extrapolation from humans' phantom
> limb pain experiences.

Any serious approach to this question would require some study of what kinds of
sensations are provided by the intact appendage (limb or tail) prior to
amputation.  I am by no means expert in this area but one thing that does occur
to me is that limbs provide elaborate proprioceptive input to the CNS enabling
the animal or human to know the position of its limbs in space without looking
at them, the load (or absence thereof) on the limbs, and more.  I'm sure the
canine tail provides some proprioceptive input, but I'm also rather confident
that the proprioceptive input from the non-prehensile canine tail is fairly
minimal compared with that from a limb.  There is little musculature in the
distal portion of a dog's tail and - judging by the insouciance with which dogs
damage their tails and the lack of dramatic response they show to even fairly
major tail trauma - not very much innervation either.

I naively suppose that both the amount and the kind of innervation play a role
in the phantom limb pain phenomenon - about which I think there is an extensive
medical and psychiatric literature.  I seem to remember that quite a bit is now
known about phantom limb pain and its management.

This is one of many areas in which I think data are preferable to sometimes
far-fetched speculation.

John
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com



From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger"  6-NOV-2003 15:28:30.18
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bonsai Kittens

You wrote:

I was wondering if I could just ask a few questions regarding 'bonsai 
kittens'.  However, before I do this I would like to give a brief 
introduction on the subject as I am not sure how many people are familiar 
with this topic (as it was only recently brought to my attention).

======it takes quite a bit to get to me, at my age, but I am appalled at 
what you describe.  I'll reserve further judgment after I look at the site, 
but can't see how on Earth I'd change my mind. Your note immediately brought 
to mind the torture inflicted on Asian women who had their first feet 
binding before age 10, and the many who suffered from constant pain, 
crippling, and infections, sometimes fatal, for the rest of their lives for 
the sake of beautifying themselves for men in their culture.  No, they 
didn't choose to do it as youngsters, their fathers and mothers insisted on 
it in order to conform.  Until the first binding, little girls could run and 
play, follow their friends and family.  The first binding wasn't even the 
worst--their toes would be bent underneath a little further with each 
binding until the desired effect was achieved.
      Jo
        Jo

_________________________________________________________________
Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95.  
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)


From:	IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com"  "John Burchard"  6-NOV-2003 15:29:19.63
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology list"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOTmake one a mathematician.

Ray Stricklin wrote:

> Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all about "doing the right
> thing."
> 
> Cutting off the tail of an animal solely for purposes of giving pleasure to
> humans is _not_ doing "the right thing" for animals.

Few would argue with that proposition.  I certainly would not.

The real discussion at hand is, however, not about that proposition, but about
the posssibility that in some cases the purpose and effect of the amputation may
be other than "solely for purposes of giving pleasure to humans."  Prevention of
torn dew claws, anyone? <G>

> This is not a "straw man argument."  Nor is the statement one that could be
> said to be "political."  The statement has to do with "doing the right
> thing" for animals.  It is a straightforward statement about ethics.  And it
> is not a statement that is to be discussed only by persons who claim ethics
> as their profession.  All ("normal," adult, etc.) humans have the ability to
> engage in moral reasoning.  Most every modern person who has seriously
> studied, written and(or) thought about this ability has concluded that we
> humans, therefore, are burdened with the responsibility/obligation of using
> this ability.
> 
> Ethics is absolutely something that we must learn about through interactions
> with others - and I would very much argue that we are individually obligated
> to expand our knowledge about formal ethics.  But ultimately we are to use
> this ability to reason about everyday issues having to do ethics and
> morality in order to bring about "doing the right thing" - even if doing the
> right thing conflicts with actions that would beneficially serve us
> individually, financially, professionally, or otherwise (but taking such a
> position, I would argue, must be done within the bounds of lawful, and in
> some cases, even pragmatic, bounds).

Some people feel an obligation to defend morally correct action even when it
seems to conflict with "pragmatic bounds."  I suppose most of our efforts to
improve the lives of "livestock" species (the German expression "Nutztiere" is
so much more apt and economical <G>) fall into that category <G>.  We are, it
seems to me, going to a good deal of trouble to try to change those "pragmatic
bounds."

> I would suggest that anyone who believes that it is morally acceptable to
> (surgically, mechanically, etc.) alter the appearance of animals solely for
> the sake of attaining human pleasure should present the ethical basis for
> their beliefs.  And I certainly would believe that a good starting point for
> persons wishing to pursue this endeavor would be to work with a professional
> ethicist.  I would indeed like to see the argument put forth by a person
> formally trained in ethics for such a position.

That is indeed a straw man argument, to the extent that nobody AFAIK is trying
to argue in favor of altering appearance "solely for the sake of attaining human
pleasure."  The critical question is whether under some circumstances there may
be much more defensible reasons for doing it, or for doing other things which do
not, or at least not primarily, alter the animal's appearance, but - for example
- its reproductive ability <G>.

Many of the same people who express horror at tail docking, ear cropping or even
"dew claw" removal seem willing or even eager to advocate surgical sterilization
of animals ...

John
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com



From:	IN%"Michalchik@aol.com"  6-NOV-2003 17:06:29.42
To:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bonsai Kittens

I am almost positive this is a joke.


From:	IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com"  6-NOV-2003 17:33:52.05
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	tail docking and tail biting -- pigs

Since no animal welfare scientist (and many, I know, used to be on this 
list in the beginning) has previously responded with scientific 
evidence regarding chronic pain from tail docking, I fear the people 
who could have answered this question most authoritatively may have 
been driven from the list.

However, because someone should respond, I can pass on the explanation 
given by the Animal Welfare Institute (AWI) to prospective farmers concerning 
the reasons for the ban on tail docking of pigs in its humane pig 
husbandry standards.  AWI's position is based on veterinary and medical
sources.

For example, Henrik Simonsen and colleagues provided evidence of chronic 
pain from neuroma formation in the tails of docked pigs (see "Histopathology 
of 
intact and docked pigtails," British Veterinary Journal, 147, 1991, pp. 
407-412).  Based on Simonsen, et al. and medical sources, AWI provides 
farmers with the following simplified explanation to support its prohibition 
on tail 
docking:

""Whenever a nerve is cut, the body attempts to regrow the nerve.  The 
nerve trunk sends out nerve fibers in an attempt to repair the 
interruption, but the amputated part of the nerve is no longer there.  
This is a normal physiological response to injury and produces a 
swelling at the end of each cut nerve.  A neuroma is a bundle or 
tangled ball of these nerve fibers that forms on the end of a severed 
nerve and continues to grow in a cauliflower shape.  Doctors or 
scientists can detect neuromas by dissection of the tissue.  Neuromas 
may give rise to mild and tolerable sensations such as warmth or cold.  
But in the majority of human amputees, neuromas are responsible for 
chronic pain that varies from cramping, burning, tingling, shocking, 
shooting, and stabbing pains.  As with other forms of amputation, tail 
docking in pigs has been shown to cause neuroma formation in the stump. 
Because neuromas resulting from tail amputation are likely to cause 
pigs chronic pain as they do human amputees, tail docking is a welfare 
issue and it is important from a welfare standpoint for farmers to 
implement alternatives to this practice.""

Although some people maintain that tail docking is better than 
allowing pigs to be tail bitten, in farm situations, tail biting is 
preventable by more finely tuning the production environments to the 
biological and behavioral needs of pigs.  Tail docking of pigs has been 
banned in Sweden since, I believe, the mid 1960s and farmers have 
had to enrich and improve production environments for pigs accordingly 
to avoid tail biting problems, which can be costly to the farmer as
well as to the pigs.

Recently, an article in Applied Animal Behaviour Science 2016 
(2003) 1-23, by Moinard, Mendl, Nicol, and Green, reported a case 
control study of on-farm risk factors for tail biting in pigs.  The 
authors referred to Simonsen, et al. ("There are peripheral nerves in 
the intact tip of the tail ....  [o]nce amputated, the tip may become 
highly sensitive because neuromas form.  In human amputees, neuromas 
are responsible for chronic pain.").  The authors also concluded that 
tail docking did not prevent tail biting behaviors, although it was 
used as a "curative" on farms where there were tail biting problems.  
They concluded that a number of remedial and proactive management 
practices can be adopted to decrease the risk of tail biting in growing 
and finishing pigs.

Because tail biting can be prevented through husbandry and 
environment improvements that contribute substantially to pig welfare, 
AWI does not consider the routine tail docking of pigs to be an ethically 
supportable husbandry practice and tail docking is prohibited in its
husbandry standards.

From:	IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com"  "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc."  6-NOV-2003 18:07:52.11
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bonsai Kittens

This site was brought to my attention last year and after becoming very upset I emailed a friend of mine, a veterinarian, to check it out and see if there was a possibility the kittens were for real. He assured me that they're not, saying it's just a very "good" hoax.

Don't know about the rest of you people out there, I believe in free expression/speech etc. but I still think this site should be taken off the net. Some idiot(s) out there are quite likely to try this out.

Vivian Singer-Ferris
Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc.
www.kerwoodwolf.com

  ----- Original Message ----- 
  From: Michalchik@aol.com 
  To: warblerneck@hotmail.com ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca 
  Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 5:05 PM
  Subject: Re: Bonsai Kittens


  I am almost positive this is a joke. 

From:	IN%"emcounsell@telus.net"  "Elizabeth Counsell"  6-NOV-2003 18:29:21.81
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bonsai Kittens

Thanks to everyone who responded.  I am so sorry to waste your time with this 'issue' and I feel like an idiot for believing this hoax.  I guess I was too willing to take it seriously as my friend obviously felt it was real so I took her word for it.  Of course after paying closer attention to the site I can now see how it is absolutely not possible and that it is - or was - a hoax.  I guess I get so used to seeing and hearing about the things people do to animals that when I am presented with an issue such as this i'm not neccessarily ready to pass it off as fake.  Thank you for responding to my question and clearing my mind (although I also feel like a total idiot ;)).  I appreciate everyone taking the time to write and to point out the little details that I skipped over such as the following that John Burchard mentioned:

"Kitten as Klein bottle, etc.  A Klein bottle is a standard figure, in the branch of mathematics called topology, which has no "inside" or "outside" because what starts out as one becomes the other as you trace it around.  In a way it is the three dimensional counterpart of a Moebius strip." 

I do agree with Vivian's point that there is always the possibility that some crazy folks out there will try to make these "bonsai kitty" devices and I do not know if the site should be shut down.   However, it does seem that if Bonsai Kitty was investigated by the FBI and Humane Society that they should have been asked to put up some kind of disclaimer or response on their website.  Usually when these kinds of things arise the company or party involved is asked to present such a thing to the public.  Maybe they felt that they already had a disclaimer as they do mention that you shouldn't try this at home without proper certification from the USDA Kitticulture department.  Anyways...

Thanks for helping me see the light on this one, I don't know where my brain was...probably on vacation where I'd like to be right about now.  ;)

Thanks to all,
Beth

From:	IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com"  "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc."  6-NOV-2003 20:04:47.34
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Bonsai Kittens

Well, I must say you've made some good points. I suppose I only believe in freedom of speech to a point then, which of course, isn't true freedom of speech at all! To be honest, I don't know why I react so strongly to this site when, at our wolf centre, we are quite willing to listen to the "other side" i.e.: hunters, anti-wolf organizations etc. Infact, we do exactly as you suggest - fight the disinformation with information. Concerning wolves, this is sometimes touchy ground. For instance, I think that all would agree that no species (wolf or otherwise) should be hunted to extinction, no matter what the "reason." But hunting (of any species) really boils down (after legalities) to a moral/ethical issue, which we all know could be argued endlessly...

Vivian Singer-Ferris
Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc.
www.kerwoodwolf.com




  From: Michalchik@aol.com 
  To: info@kerwoodwolf.com 
  Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 6:45 PM
  Subject: Re: Bonsai Kittens


  In a message dated 11/6/2003 4:18:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, info@kerwoodwolf.com writes:
    Don't know about the rest of you people out there, I believe in free expression/speech etc. 
  No actually you don't believe of freedom of speech if you think ideas you find offensive or dangerous should be taken out of public forums.  Yes, some idiot might try it, but they will be breaking animal cruelty laws if they do and they should be punished for that. There will always be some idiot out there that will do something stupid and cruel whether or not they are encouraged to. The proper way to fight disinformation is with information. If you want to discourage people from doing this, put up a website that reveals it to be a hoax, shows that it wouldn't work, is cruel and is illegal. Freedom has a price and one of the prices is having to deal with idiots and take personal responsibility for the quality of information that is out there.

From:	IN%"orion1432@juno.com"  "D.B. Cameron"  6-NOV-2003 23:46:53.07
To:	IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOTmake one a mathematician.

On Thu, 06 Nov 2003 11:24:55 -0800 John Burchard <saluqi@ix.netcom.com>
writes:
> Ray Stricklin wrote:
> 
> > Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all about "doing the 
> right
> > thing."

(snip)

Oh PLEASE!!!  That is such a sophmoric attitude! 

Practically speaking, who or what organization is the judge?


                DBC



      ^   ^          D. B. Cameron, DVM              Animal Behavior
Clinic
  <  \    /  >      15353 N. Bloomfield Road     Nevada City, CA 95959   
      
       !   !                                           530.265.9341      
     
        ..                                                               
    
              Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what ships
are for.

From:	IN%"orion1432@juno.com"  "D.B. Cameron"  6-NOV-2003 23:47:08.27
To:	IN%"finklerh@post.tau.ac.il"
CC:	IN%"orion1432@juno.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: RE: de sexing is a mutilation too

Ethically speaking, what makes welfare superior to some other reason for
inflicting pain and mutilation?

From a different perspective, isn't euthanasia superior to spay/castrate?
After all, at least the subjects (puppies/kittens) 
experience life for some limited time. And cannot that be considered
superior to eternal non-existence?

And from an anthropomorphic perspective (seems to be a large quotient in
these welfare discussions), would you find a difference between having
your ears cropped and having your sex organs removed? And if so, which
would be your preference?


                             DBC




On Thu, 6 Nov 2003 18:53:03 +0200 "Hilit Finkler"
<finklerh@post.tau.ac.il> writes:
> Ethically speaking you are correct, but in real life there are too 
> many cats
> and dogs (our fault of course)
> and this is one of the more humane ways to control their numbers!
> What is the aim of ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal, 
> animal
> welfare wise?
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: D.B. Cameron [mailto:orion1432@juno.com]
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:34 PM
> To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Cc: orion1432@juno.com
> Subject: Fw: RE: de sexing is a mutilation too
> 
> 
> 
> Jackie,
> 
> Well stated.
> 
> I was about to ask why ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw 
> removal
> is
> considered by many to be unethical and/or mutilations, when 
> (probably)
> these same people all but demand far more brutal, and far more
> mutilating
> castrations and ovary removal . . . and currently at a very young 
> age.
> And these people make no mention of the fact that this de-sexing 
> surgery
> is far more likely to cause long term behavior changes including
> guaranteed sexual behavior changes.
> 
> The usual excuse is that the ends justify the means, but that 
> concept is
> about as unethical as there is. The Nazis tried it and got hung in
> Nuremburg.
> 
> Comments?
> 
> 
>                    DBC
> 
> 
> 
> On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:49:02 +1000 Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> 
> writes:
> > Desexing described in detail would sound just as brutal!
> > Jackie Perkins
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Robin Walker [mailto:coape@nildram.co.uk]
> > Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:58 AM
> > To: Applied Ethology Network
> > Subject: RE-More on mutilations
> >
> >
> > When the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons ruled that docking
> > should
> > not be performed by its Registered Members I complied.
> >
> > I am bound by a code of ethics, which is not optional.
> >
> > To be so bound is be professional and to be worthy of trust.
> >
> > It was highly inconvenient, as I had performed this act when 
> asked
> > in
> > the past. Among those denied this service were old clients who 
> had
> > come
> > to me after operations, which were sometimes fatal, attended by
> > undue
> > haemorrhage and damage by chemical cautery.
> >
> > As a matter of interest, historical as it now is, the technique I
> > devised addressed the complaints and mishaps of the past.
> >
> > At around 2 to 3 weeks of age, fit and likely pups were operated
> > upon in
> > this manner.
> >
> > The dam was out of earshot of the pups crying.
> >
> > The technique was to crush the tail at the required length with 
> the
> > jaws
> > of piglet tooth cutters with the cutting edges filed flat. The
> > closure
> > was slow so as not to cut by rather crush in the manner of a
> > burdizzo.
> >
> > The piercing alarm call resembled that emitted by a pup what was
> > being
> > squashed or hurt by any means.
> >
> > The jaws on the clippers there held closed to a full two minutes 
> by
> > the
> > clock.
> >
> > The crying invariable ceased after a short time. For about a 
> minute
> > and
> > a half there would be no sound and the puppies would seem to be
> > asleep.
> >
> > The redundant tail was then twisted with a rotary movement very
> > slowly
> > until detached. The pressure of the closed clipper was maintained
> > for a
> > few more seconds prior to release.
> >
> > There would be no bleeding or further crying. Returned to the 
> warm
> > box
> > the pups slept.
> >
> > By 1990 there were only a half dozen "breeders" in my Practice as 
> I
> > had
> > effectively expelled those who required elective caesarians, bred
> > extremely deformed types and were of a mind to dictate to me 
> their
> > terms
> > and fees1
> >
> > My last and longest client was a breed of Pembroke Corgis who was
> > insistent
> > that my method was the best she had encountered. Furthermore, she
> > convinced me that puppies "mutilated" (if you wish) in this 
> manner
> > could
> > be identified by a straight "top-line".
> >
> > The alternative method favoured by home dockers and I must say, 
> by
> > the
> > malcontents and rebels of my profession after the Ruling, was the
> > rubber
> > band.
> >
> > The banded pups do indeed have a different profile to the rump. 
> The
> > lower spine is curved downwards. It my sincere belief that the
> > discomfort of protracted iscaemia can induce a postural deformity 
> at
> > a
> > time when the pups are growing very fast indeed.
> >
> > Finally, I was convinced that a lengthy period of pain and a 
> slowing
> > of
> > growth attended the use of the agricultural banding technique.
> >
> > Since "the Ruling", I have not performed this and now describe it 
> as
> > a
> > curiosity or relic of the past.
> >
> > Why do it at all?
> >
> > The very small number of injured tails (or claws for that matter) 
> in
> > my
> > records and recollection of 40 years cannot be stretched to 
> justify
> > routine ablation of tails or dewclaws.
> >
> > Latterly the Practice abounded with natural undocked dogs of all
> > types.
> >
> > The simple issue here is the tyranny of custom and fashion.
> >
> > (The postural deformity theory could have been tested by 
> recording,
> > and
> > measurement. Perhaps there are unreconstructed barbarians who 
> would
> > undertake such a study!)
> >
> >
> > Robin Walker
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> >
> 
> 
>       ^   ^          D. B. Cameron, DVM              Animal 
> Behavior
> Clinic
>   <  \    /  >      15353 N. Bloomfield Road     Nevada City, CA 
> 95959
> 
> 
>        !   !                                           530.265.9341
> 
> 
>         ..
> 
> 
>               Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what 
> ships
> are for.
> 
> 
> 


      ^   ^          D. B. Cameron, DVM              Animal Behavior
Clinic
  <  \    /  >      15353 N. Bloomfield Road     Nevada City, CA 95959   
      
       !   !                                           530.265.9341      
     
        ..                                                               
    
              Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what ships
are for.

From:	IN%"minna.vuolle@datazug.ch"  "Minna Vuolle"  7-NOV-2003 01:41:00.89
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

Dear h.m and all

In deed, we humans really should consider what we breed. There are dog
breeds that can not breath normally, that can not move and run normally and
so on. And as a result of mutations and selections dogs' tails have various
forms and shapes and some of them aren't purposeful for communication.  The
same is true with dog's ears. Dogs also use their ears  for communication,
so dogs with extremely long and heavy ears have a disadvantage.

D. B Cameron wrote: "And from an anthropomorphic perspective (seems to be a
large quotient inthese welfare discussions), would you find a difference
between having your ears cropped and having your sex organs removed? And if
so, which be your preference?"

I can't tell because having my ears cropped is not the same than having
dog's ears cropped, because I don't speak with my ears. Having dog's sex
organs removed should also be  considered more deeply. For example, many
veterinarians suggest to have a male dog neutered, without telling the whole
truth what will happen. It is not unusual that a neutered male dog get
attacked by females and mounted by other male dogs. And spayed females
change too, many get more male like - many have incontinence problems. We
should try to respect the rights and needs of other species and remember
that their point of view is very different from ours.

Minna




From: "h.m." <oryctolagus@earthlink.net>
To: "'Minna Vuolle'" <minna.vuolle@datazug.ch>
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:56 AM
Subject: RE: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals


> Ok, if docking is illegal then what about... the Britany Spaniel
> confirmation.   Apparently the dog is BRED to only have a 4" tail.  If a
> tail is important for communication then is it illegal to breed dogs for
> short/tailless confirmation?
>
>
>
> "Tail: Tailless to approximately four inches, natural or docked. The
> tail not to be so long as to affect the over-all balance of the dog. Set
> on high, actually an extension of the spine at about the same level. Any
> tail substantially more than four inches shall be severely penalized."
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Minna Vuolle [mailto:minna.vuolle@datazug.ch]
> Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:37 AM
> To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: Re: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals
>
> Tail docking is not only a political issue. Dog's tail is important to
> dogs
> for their ability to communicate. Here in Switzerland tail docking has
> been
> forbidden already for many years.
>
> Minna Vuolle
>
>
>
>
> ----- Original Message ----- 
> From: "Geiger" <gooddog@dodo.com.au>
> To: "'Petherick, Carol'" <Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au>; <Sent:
> Thursday,
> November 06, 2003 3:50 AM
> Subject: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals
>
>
> > If dogs are considered citizens, and given certain rights,
> > anthropomorphized, then they necessarily will be subjected to certain
> > human rituals too which may include tattooing tail docking dressing up
> > in pink ribbons etc etc etc. Why should a handful of "outsiders"
> dictate
> > what relatively harmless rituals are "good" and "evil"? No-one has
> been
> > able to coherently explain why tail docking is worse than
> circumcision.
> > Some humans willingly circumcise their babies. Their babies can not
> make
> > an informed consent. Should dogs be better protected (or more highly
> > regulated) than babies??
> > Circumcision was not banned, just regulated. Why could not tail
> docking
> > have been firstly more thoroughly researched, and secondly, regulated.
> I
> > have really had it with this attitude of banning whatever is not
> deemed
> > politically correct for today. I believe it is all about appearances,
> > for those motivated by political correctness. Political correctness is
> > all about pressuring people into conformity with some narrow fashion
> > ideal; it is the antithesis of academia enlightenment tolerance and
> > learning. I hope one day the tide of political correctness turns on
> > those who propagate it.
> > Jackie Perkins
> >
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au]
> > Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:55 PM
> > To: oryctolagus; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> > Subject: RE: What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
> > molecular biology?
> >
> > Dear Heather
> > I suspect your last sentence provides the explanation.  I don't know
> the
> > full story (and sorry, don't have time to research it all), but I
> > strongly suspect that this experimental work has been marketed/sold on
> > the basis of the potential good it will do to humans/and or animals
> > (skin grafts, new organs/tissues grown to replace burned/missing
> parts)
> > and is acceptable to the public and those setting welfare/ethical
> > standards because the potential benefits outweigh the negatives (in
> > terms of negative impacts on animal welfare).  I find it hard to see
> how
> > tail-docking for cosmetic purposes can ever be justified, as there are
> > lots of negatives and no potential benefits for the animals.
> >
> > Carol
> >
> > Carol Petherick
> > Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
> > Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences
> > Department of Primary Industries
> >
> > Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
> > Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au
> >
> >  -----Original Message-----
> > From: oryctolagus [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net]
> > Sent: Friday, 31 October 2003 11:57 AM
> > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> > Subject: What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
> > molecular biology?
> >
> > Why is everyone so upset about tail docking and removal of dew claws,
> > when molecular biologists in mainland China and here in the USA have
> > been busy doing such industry-supported things as attaching a baby
> rat's
> > head to the side of an adult (both lived) and in rabbits, removing the
> > rabbit's ear and growing new human shaped ear on a cartilage matrix
> > where the rabbit-ear used to be? (this has been done in at least two
> > instances by molecular biologists).  The one Lady business owner who
> > displayed such a rabbit at a convention went on to be a Dean at a
> > prominent California Business college (
> > http://members.aol.com/salaned/writings/engineer.htm  from a former
> > molecular biologist (Salk Institute among others:
> > http://members.aol.com/salaned/cyberplace.html)   She founded the
> > company Advanced Tissue Sciences, displayed a rabbit at a
> bioartificial
> > organs conference which had a human ear grafted in place of its own
> ear.
> > The other instance of a rabbit having a human ear grown on its body
> was
> > by Cao Yilin, a Shanghai researcher who is also head of the Laboratory
> > of Soft Tissue Engineering at America's University of Massachusetts
> > (he's now back in China).
> >
> > Shouldn't there be more biologists and ethicists *screaming* about the
> > ethics in the tissue regeneration research fields?  There is stuff
> going
> > on there that makes Frankenstein look tame; and, the scientists in the
> > field seem apparently proud of it.  Would such a law protect rabbits
> > used in molecular biology research?  Aren't these very famous, very
> > prestigious molecular biologists "amoral"?  They hold high respected
> > posts in their communities.  The lady doctor above is revered for her
> > work in childrens' burn therapy.
> >
> > H.Mcmurray
> >
> > -----Original Message-----
> > From: Andy Beck <wheep@igrin.co.nz>
> > Sent: Oct 30, 2003 5:56 PM
> > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> > Subject: FW: tail docking
> > > - I assume this would be a judgement call best made by a Vet on a
> case
> > by
> > > case basis. The issue was tail docking, which I firmly believe to be
> > > ethically wrong - so why not keep it there rather than going off at
> a
> > > tangent?
> >
> > I agree, but legislation which prohibits any "removal of body parts"
> > obviously
> > applies to "dew claws" too.  I'm not sure the ethical issues are
> really
> > so
> > very
> > different.  In both cases we are dealing with removal of a normally
> > functional
> > body part, which under certain circumstances, but not under others,
> may
> > be
> > liable to significant painful injury if not removed.  I don't wish to
> > appear
> > dense, but where's the difference?
> >
> > Many veterinarians are not, I'm afraid, sufficiently familiar with the
> > realities
> > of working dogs to have a valid opinion on such matters.  At least in
> > this
> > country, the overwhelming majority of patients in the average practice
> > are
> > obese
> > family pets whose greatest athletic achievement is jumping on or off
> the
> > sofa.
> > Those of us with high performance working dogs often travel hundreds
> of
> > miles to
> > find a veterinarian truly knowledgeable about their needs.
> >
> > In the sighthounds with which I am most familiar I am opposed to the
> > removal
> > of
> > "dew claws" (front first digits) because they are functionally useful
> > and
> > because I disapprove of *any* unnecessary surgery, ablation or what
> > haveJohn
> > -- 
> > Dr. John Burchard
> > Tepe Gawra Salukis
> > http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
> > saluqi@ix.netcom.com
> >
> > ********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
> > The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages
> > (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally
> > privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity
> > to which it is addressed.  If you are not the addressee any form of
> > disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken
> > or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised.  Opinions
> > contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> > of the Queensland Government and its authorities.  If you received
> > this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and
> > delete it from your computer system network.
> >
> >
> >
>
>
>
>
>



From:	IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz"  "John R Lane"  7-NOV-2003 03:47:25.06
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics;

FROM PREVIOUS POSTS:

> --- Ray Stricklin <wrstrick@umd.edu> wrote:
> > Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all
> > about "doing the right
> > thing."
> >
> .Dr. Stricklin,
>   How refreshing to see that phrase.  Most decisions
> we have to make really can be made simple by thinking
> of that phrase before making the decision.
> CeAnn



MY RESPONSE and question to you both.

Hello to both posters about this phrase,
                                                  When put together these
statements tend to intimate that making an ethical decision is always very
simple and that we all have the same innate knowledge and
instinct/conscience (call it what you will) that allows us to make these
choices simply.

 The following is pure hypothetical O.T. example making concept except that
both hypothectical examples used could perhaps also be very true.

Lets look at what I am sure most of us would certainly consider an ethical
construct in our dealings with others:
The commandment/social moree from indeed most
religions/creeds/philosophies/law making bodies etc in the world in one form
or other. I will put it in Judeo Christian format:

Thou Shalt not steal.

Please define for me in the following situations what is stealing?

In the one instance I am in a third world country possibly under
dictatorship rule. I am actually dying of starvation. I can see that the
rich well fed person across the street has enough bread that will keep me
alive. I wish to survive right now.

In the second instance I am the rich person with more than enough for my
survival needs yet I don't wish to share. I would rather let the other
person die of starvation so I can be sure to survive later because of my
reserves if circumstances should turn against me.

In those two differing scenarios please define how you would interpret what
the social moree about not stealing means combined with what ethics would
dictate in each case.

While I know this example is very O.T. for this list the point behind it is
that "Doing the right thing" is not always an simple judgement to make.
Neither is ethics always black and white and making a decision based on
ethics certainly is NOT always simple.

To bring it back On Topic for this list:
I don't have the same knowledge or life experience in some areas of animal
husbandry or ethology that each of you or anyone else on this list has has
nor do each of you have the same knowledge in some areas that I and each
other person on the list have.
 So whatever situation we are attempting to decide ethically about we may
all actually make different choices in our attempts to be ethical but surely
all our individual choices would still be ethical but not necessarily in
agreement.

Regards John L.



From:	IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk"  "Moira Harris"  7-NOV-2003 05:15:41.86
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Applied-ethology and the ISAE

Dear all,

Thanks to the many of you who responded to my call a couple of weeks=20
ago for members of the International Society of Applied Ethology (ISAE)=20
who subscribe to the Applied-Ethology network to identify themselves to=20
me.

Seventy-two ISAE members have replied to me, out of a current total=20
ISAE membership of 671.  According to Joe Stookey's records there are=20
now 473 subscribers to Applied-Ethology (and Joe informs me that at one=20
time there were over 600).  This does indeed suggest to me that use of=20
A-E has changed over recent years, becoming both broader -- interests=20
have obviously diversified, as evidenced by the wide-ranging nature of=20
postings from the last few days -- but also losing some of the=20
subscribers for whose benefit the list was originally set up.

Some ISAE members who contacted me have commented that, while they are=20
still subscribed to A-E, they are unhappy with its content (personal=20
insults were a frequently-mentioned source of irritation).  Other=20
scientists and students I have talked to recently have expressed their=20
reservations about using A-E as a source of scientific information. =20
For example, it used to be common for somebody designing an experiment=20
to ask for help from experienced A-E subscribers with experimental=20
design, or inquire about the best place to obtain a particular piece of=20
equipment. Postings of this kind do still happen, but they are becoming=20
increasingly rare.  Fear of ridule, non-constructive criticism and=20
harassment from people who are unfamiliar with applied ethological=20
research (according to more than one person I have spoken to) are=20
inhibitng postings of this kind, particularly from students.

And the moral of all this is ... well, there is no moral.  I=92ll leave=20
you all to draw your own conclusions.  And I am posting (separately)=20
information on how to apply for ISAE membership.

Thanks and best wishes,
- Moira Harris
ISAE Membership Secretary

-------------------------------------

Dr. Moira Harris

Animal Behaviour and Welfare Group
Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science=20
University of Bristol
Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk

Ecology and Epidemiology Group
Dept. Biological Sciences
University of Warwick
Moira.Harris@warwick.ac.uk



From:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com"  7-NOV-2003 05:17:37.81
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Ethics, Ethical behaviour and Ethical animal care

John Lane has draw our attention to the big problem with ethics i.e. that it
can be very personal and very situational (what is wrong in one situation
can be right in another).

It is tempting in this situation to retreat into the safer, more solid,
world of purely scientific [*] ethology and reject ethics as too irrational,
subjective and inconsistent for an ethologist to be concerned with.

Even worse would be to stay locked in a clash of ideologies, especially if
we confuse our ideology (how we would like things to be) with our reality
(what is actually real, solid and happening).  Unfortunately, reality can be
almost as subjective and personal a phenomenon as ideology, but let's not go
into those deep waters just now!

[Footnote: * the ancient word "science", meaning "knowledge", has been
hi-jacked by
20th century researchers who use the knowledge paradigm of "relative
positivism".
BUT 20th century "objective" relative positivism is only one of many forms
of "knowing" (science)].

The Practical Value of Ethics
------------------------------------
There is no need to abandon hope that ethics will never get us anywhere -
ethical codes have been a key part of human society for at least 30,000
years.

Coming to some mutually-agreed practical code of thinking, feeling and
behaving may involve us in a great deal of human intra-species conflict
and - often just as difficult - a certain amount of intra-personal conflict
within ourself. However, once the code is agreed, it becomes potentially a
basis for reducing conflict and for enhancing social group efficiency and
effectiveness.

Integrating beliefs and values (conscience, ethics) with practical behaviour
can
enhance personal effectiveness due to what is sometimes termed "congruent
power" - the focussed effort that results from internal harmony
(congruency, being "together" as an individual, or having "wholeness").

At the group level, there are of course parallels for the enhanced
effectiveness of congruent (holistic) harmony in social groups of humans and
animals who have agreed codes of behaviour.

Chapter and Verse on Ethics
------------------------------------
Gary Comstock of the Iowa State Bioethics programme has written a superbly
clear and well-structured chapter in the multi-author manual "Livestock,
Ethics and Quality of Life" in which he examines piece by piece the
confusion about what ethics is, then moves on to look at its modern role in
Animal Science.

Fascinatingly, he then goes on to trace the roots of Animal Science ethics
back to our hunter-gatherer ancestors and their tradition of ethics
communicated via myths and legends. From here he traces the evolution of
bioethics to the pastoral nomads and early farmers. The importance of ethics
in our relationships with animals and with each other is abundantly clear.
Understanding it's evolution may help us to approach it more
constructively - with a heightened sense of perspective, mutual respect and
recognition.

I would really recommend this book as helpful reading for anyone  interested
in progressing ethological understanding and the art of human/human and
human/animal co-creation.

For those who prefer mortal combat as the way to create a world that is
correct, safe or nice, then this book can still be useful - it's a very
handy size for bashing over the head those people who refuse to share your
narrow-minded, self-righteous vision.


By sheer coincidence I am auctioning off a copy of this book over the next
few days, see
www.pighealth.com/offers/welfare.htm     for details.


Thanks to everyone for a very stimulating (rarely dull!) discussion list.
Mike Meredith
www.sunflower-health.com



From:	IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk"  "Moira Harris"  7-NOV-2003 05:36:36.00
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Applying to become an ISAE member

This message is in MIME format.

--Boundary_(ID_aY3H4/0qxSz8m7lYj7nd7g)
X-MIME-Autoconverted: from 8bit to quoted-printable by fsa.bris.ac.uk id
 hA7BSYe19397
Content-type: text/plain
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Dear all,

Thanks to the many of you who have asked me for information on ISAE=20
membership.  Attached to this message you will find two forms: a=20
Membership Application and a Payment form.
In order to be considered for ISAE membership you will need to complete=20
the Membership Application and return it to me.  New applicants for=20
membership are considered and voted on by the ISAE Council.  Please=20
note that, as stated on the forms, membership applications must be=20
accompanied by provisions for payment (though payment will not be=20
processed until you are accepted as a member, and if your membership is=20
not approved your payment will be returned).  Current subscription=20
rates are =A325 (for regular members) and =A315 (for students and=20
retirees). We also ask that new applications be supported by a proposer=20
and seconder, who are already ISAE members.  If this is not possible, a=20
letter of recommendation from a senior colleague should be acceptable=20
instead.

If you have any questions, or in case of difficulties, feel free to=20
contact me!

Thanks and best wishes,
- Moira Harris
ISAE Membership Secretary=20

-------------------------------------

Dr. Moira Harris

Animal Behaviour and Welfare Group
Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science=20
University of Bristol
Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk

Ecology and Epidemiology Group
Dept. Biological Sciences
University of Warwick
Moira.Harris@warwick.ac.uk



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--Boundary_(ID_aY3H4/0qxSz8m7lYj7nd7g)--

From:	IN%"metg@kvl.dk"  "Mette Giersing"  7-NOV-2003 06:57:54.89
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Master of Animal Behaviour and Welfare

Dear friends,

We wish to draw your attention to a new course: Master of Animal Behaviour =
and Welfare, starting in the spring of 2004 at the Royal Veterinary and =
Agricultural University, Copenhagen Denmark.

This course is part of the University's 'Continuing Education' programme =
and is offered as a Masters course consisting of four modules. It is =
possible to enrol in the complete course, leading to a masters degree in =
animal behaviour and welfare, or in single modules.=20

The aim of the course is to provide a background of knowledge for working =
with animal behaviour and for understanding how different processes =
operate and interact at different levels in the animal. Thus, the course =
addresses persons involved with development and control of animal welfare =
legislation, veterinary practitioners, advisers and consultants within =
livestock production and companion animals. An important aspect is to =
provide a link between scientific knowledge and practical work on the farm =
or in the behavioural clinic. The course can also be of interest for =
persons working with research or communication within human ethology.=20

The course is organised as a part-time study, making it possible for =
students to maintain his or her professional activity at the same time. =
Tuition includes intensive periods of teaching at 3-day seminars alternatin=
g with internet based work at home in the form of self-study and project =
work.

Further information, including programme, admission requirements, tuition =
fees and application form can be found at:
Website - uk.kvl.dk.continuing=20
Office of Continuing Education - Phone: +45 3528 2093 - E-mail: efteruddann=
else@kvl.dk
Head of programme Professor Jan Ladewig - Phone: +45 3528 3031- E-mail: =
jal@kvl.dk =20

Many regards,
Jan Ladewig






Mette Giersing, Seniorkonsulent, PhD
Ullstorp 710
SE-243 93 H=F6=F6r
Tlf.  +46 413 553465
Mobil +46 706268183
metg@kvl.dk


From:	IN%"metg@kvl.dk"  "Mette Giersing"  7-NOV-2003 07:09:28.52
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Corrected Master of Animal Behaviour and Welfare

Apologies for this repetition, but I had misspelt the web-address.

Dear friends,

I wish to draw your attention to a new course: Master of Animal Behaviour =
and Welfare, starting in the spring of 2004 at the Royal Veterinary and =
Agricultural University, Copenhagen Denmark.

This course is part of the University's 'Continuing Education' programme =
and is offered as a Masters course consisting of four modules. It is =
possible to enrol in the complete course, leading to a masters degree in =
animal behaviour and welfare, or in single modules.=20

The aim of the course is to provide a background of knowledge for working =
with animal behaviour and for understanding how different processes =
operate and interact at different levels in the animal. Thus, the course =
addresses persons involved with development and control of animal welfare =
legislation, veterinary practitioners, advisers and consultants within =
livestock production and companion animals. An important aspect is to =
provide a link between scientific knowledge and practical work on the farm =
or in the behavioural clinic. The course can also be of interest for =
persons working with research or communication within human ethology.=20

The course is organised as a part-time study, making it possible for =
students to maintain his or her professional activity at the same time. =
Tuition includes intensive periods of teaching at 3-day seminars alternatin=
g with internet based work at home in the form of self-study and project =
work.

Further information, including programme, admission requirements, tuition =
fees and application form can be found at:
Website - uk.kvl.dk/continuing=20
Office of Continuing Education - Phone: +45 3528 2093 - E-mail: efteruddann=
else@kvl.dk
Head of programme Professor Jan Ladewig - Phone: +45 3528 3031- E-mail: =
jal@kvl.dk =20

Many regards,
Jan Ladewig





Mette Giersing, Seniorkonsulent, PhD
Ullstorp 710
SE-243 93 H=F6=F6r
Tlf.  +46 413 553465
Mobil +46 706268183
metg@kvl.dk


From:	IN%"margory@rcn.com"  "margory cohen"  7-NOV-2003 07:33:34.06
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Applied-ethology and the ISAE

Moira Harris:
For example, it used to be common for somebody designing an experiment
to ask for help from experienced A-E subscribers with experimental
design, or inquire about the best place to obtain a particular piece of
equipment. Postings of this kind do still happen, but they are becoming
increasingly rare.  Fear of ridule, non-constructive criticism and
harassment from people who are unfamiliar with applied ethological
research (according to more than one person I have spoken to) are
inhibitng postings of this kind, particularly from students.

~~~~~~~~

margory cohen -- looking in --

As one who has been a member of this Forum for years, I can't not note that
I don't think the shift is solely from disagreement; rather an overall
political and philosophical change, deep change, has come about in all of
our lives in every aspect, not just this forum, as to The Relationship
between People and Creatures.

On a project, not able to write in -- even in recent weeks some of what's
passed here is nearly daunting.

To be sure I always write and have written and will continue to write with a
caution about the split between The Academy and The Street.   (And I daresay
I've been able to do that and carry on fruitful discussion and study with
members of various prestigious academies!)  Especially here one has to be
mindful I think of that, because frankly some of the extreme right views
will be hurtful to every body, whatever form that is.

I would think that some of the participants here who are carrying on
research cannot or may feel bullied about writing in for experiment
experience because those very experiments are or could be threatened.

Back to my work.
-margory cohen
Scottish Deerhounds
San Francisco, CA, US




From:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin"  7-NOV-2003 07:57:26.10
To:	IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com"  "John Burchard", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology list"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOTmake one a mathematician.

-----Original Message-----
From: John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 2:25 PM
To: Applied ethology list
Subject: Re: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does
NOTmake one a mathematician.


Ray Stricklin wrote:


> I would suggest that anyone who believes that it is morally acceptable to
> (surgically, mechanically, etc.) alter the appearance of animals solely
for
> the sake of attaining human pleasure should present the ethical basis for
> their beliefs.  And I certainly would believe that a good starting point
for
> persons wishing to pursue this endeavor would be to work with a
professional
> ethicist.  I would indeed like to see the argument put forth by a person
> formally trained in ethics for such a position.

That is indeed a straw man argument, to the extent that nobody AFAIK is
trying
to argue in favor of altering appearance "solely for the sake of attaining
human
pleasure."  The critical question is whether under some circumstances there
may
be much more defensible reasons for doing it, or for doing other things
which do
not, or at least not primarily, alter the animal's appearance, but - for
example
- its reproductive ability <G>.

-------------------------------
Sorry, but removal of the tail for the purpose of serving human interests is
_precisely_ the issue.  (Or at least one of the issues, and it was the issue
which I was addressing.)  There has been the argument that banning this
"dearly held tradition" was wrong in one country.  And there are many in the
USA who wish to have it continue.

When the tail of a dog is removed to meet "breed standards," then this is
done only for purposes of serving human interests, i.e., to give pleasure to
humans (and possibly to provide income to those persons who charge for the
service and those who benefit financially from the outcome).

It certainly is not done for purposes of serving the interests of the dog.
And removing the tail was definitely not a breed standard that was based on
input from the dog!

W.R. Stricklin


From:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin"  7-NOV-2003 09:01:08.23
To:	IN%"orion1432@juno.com"  "D.B. Cameron", IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com"
CC:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOTmake one a mathematician.

> > Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all about "doing the
> right
> > thing."

(snip)

Oh PLEASE!!!  That is such a sophmoric attitude!

Practically speaking, who or what organization is the judge?

----------------------------------

"Doing the right thing" is a phrase used by any number of applied
ethicists - in fact probably all of them.  I "stole" it from James Rachels
who gives credit to Socrates.  So given such choices as to the company I
wish to keep, I do not have a problem being grouped with these "Sophomores."


Who or what organization is to judge issues about ethics?

I would very much hope that this is not a question that current graduates
would ask.  And if it is, then I would argue that it is paramount that we
educators must reassess the outcome of our teaching efforts and programs!

Generally, it is held that ethics has to do with professional behavior.  And
morally has to do with personal behavior.

Therefore, it is also commonly held that ethical standards are to be
determined by the profession itself.  In some cases, however, this is not
accomplished, in part at least, because frequently there is a conflict of
interest between those who profit from the activities of the profession and
their willingness to implement changes that society as a whole may consider
necessary or appropriate.  I would point to the animal food industry as an
example of where the industry/profession itself has generally failed to
implement needed ethical standards for animals (at least in the USA).
Therefore, and to my regret, the ethical standards will most likely be ones
that are imposed upon the food animal industry by others.  My long held
preference has been that the industry itself should step forward and "do the
right thing."  But this has not occurred, and now society as a whole has the
view that the industry is not consistent with the commonly ethical view of
members of society regarding what is appropriate treatment for food
producing animals.  So society as a whole most definitely plays a role in
the determination of what is "ethical."  The profession is frequently given
wide latitude by society in the determination and administration of
self-regulation of ethical issues.  However, when professional societies (or
groups) become too much out of synchrony relative to the position held by
society as a whole, then the legislative and judicial systems tend to become
the basis for resolving these "ethical" differences.


Professionals who argue that ethics is nothing more than individual opinion,
and therefore not worthy of discussion, are in fact abdicating their role
and giving over to others the determination of ethical standards.

In another message, there was an attempt to show that "stealing" was
justified under some circumstances - and extrapolate from such an argument
that ethics is nothing more than one person's viewpoint.  Of course ethical
issues often present conflicting interests.  We can all think of examples
where this occurs.  In fact applied ethics is all about conflicting
interests. And in fact in this example about a poor man stealing, there was
even a conflict between ethical principles - the ethical and moral
obligation to provide for one's family versus the commonly held view that it
is wrong to steal. But simply pointing out that such conflicts of interest
arise is not the basis for arguing that we should not engage in discussions
about ethics - and develop ethical standards and guidelines. Nor is it a
basis for contending that ethics is only what each person decides for
themselves.  Indeed, I would argue that such examples serve to demonstrate
that we should, I would even say must, include ethics as part of our
educational and professional duties and activities.

W.R. Stricklin


From:	IN%"mappleby@hsus.org"  "Michael Appleby"  7-NOV-2003 10:27:54.34
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Welfare of Food Animals - Consumers like the Idea but not the Cost

Dear All

Myths are perpetuated for a number of reasons. One is because the wrong
questions are asked. And that is affected by who is asking the
questions. I increasingly see the idea in the Subject Header as a myth
perpetuated for this reason. In this case the questions were asked by
the Animal Agricultural Alliance - see the extract below, following
Michael Meredith's link - which strongly supports the attitudes and
practises of large-scale industrial agriculture.

Here's an extract from something I wrote myself, contradicting this
myth:

> Despite the relationship between cost and welfare on farms, it turns
out, surprisingly, that major improvements in farm animal welfare could
be achieved with only minor increases in the price paid for food by
consumers. As one illustration, the capital costs of animal production
(housing and so on) typically account for about 10% of production costs.
Suppose we double the space and facilities provided for the animals,
increasing production costs by 10%, and introduce new disease control
measures at a cost that also amounts to 10% of the original total. Cost
of production has then been increased by 20%. When a consumer buys a
meal in a supermarket or restaurant, the cost of animal products in that
meal accounts for only about 5% of its purchase price. So increasing the
cost of production by 20%, with considerable improvement in animal
welfare and food safety, need only add 1% to the price of the meal. Most
consumers would not even notice such a change and would support it if
asked.
>From Appleby et al. (2003) What price cheap food? Journal of
Agricultural and Environmental Ethics 16: 395-408.

Mike

Michael C. Appleby (Dr)
Vice-President
Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture 
The Humane Society of the United States
2100 L Street, NW Washington, DC 20037, USA
Switchboard 1 202 452 1100
Direct 1 301 258 3111
Fax 1 301 258 3081
Email mappleby@hsus.org

-----Original Message-----
From: michael.meredith@btconnect.com
[mailto:michael.meredith@btconnect.com] 
Sent: Tuesday, November 04, 2003 7:19 AM
To: Ethology Posting
Subject: Welfare of Food Animals - Consumers like the Idea but not the
Cost


A recent U.S. survey confirms our long-standing U.K. experience, that
most consumers (but not all, it must be said) like the idea of better
quality of life for food animals, but are reluctant to foot the bill.

(see www.aasv.org/news/story.php?id=824 )

<snip>

This link gives the following:

> U.S. Consumers Support Welfare But Dislike Cost
November 3, 2003 - Michael Meredith (ed. John Deen)

U.S. consumers are becoming increasingly protective toward animal
welfare in their attitude, but welfare-friendly shopping behavior is
rather less overwhelming.

In a recent survey, 71 per cent of Americans said that food animals need
some protection with regard to humane care and handling. However, only a
minority (44 per cent) of consumers would be willing to pay a mere 5 per
cent extra to compensate for more humane care. Some 20 per cent of
consumers would be willing to pay 10 per cent more and only 6 per cent
of those polled would agree to a 20 per cent price increase for higher
standards of livestock care. 

This data was presented by Kay Johnson, vice president of the Animal
Agricultural Alliance (AAA), at the 2003 Worldwide Food Expo (WWFE)
event in Chicago. AAA acts as a link between science-based research and
consumers. Johnson noted that only 2 per cent of the population work in
agriculture now and therefore a communication gap between consumers and
meat producers easily arises. 

<snip>

From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger"  7-NOV-2003 11:49:33.86
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

Minna wrote:

veterinarians suggest to have a male dog neutered, without telling the whole
truth what will happen. It is not unusual that a neutered male dog get
attacked by females and mounted by other male dogs. And spayed females
change too, many get more male like - many have incontinence problems. We
should try to respect the rights and needs of other species and remember
that their point of view is very different from ours.

======my Jackie was spayed at 8 months and we both had to deal with her 
leakage for the rest of her 17 years.  She didn't like it, neither did I.  
Your point also leads me to wonder if spaying and neutering can also alter 
hormone production so that other problems follow OR are exacerbated:  such 
as osteoarthritis and spinal problems in dogs past 8 years.
       Jo

_________________________________________________________________
Is your computer infected with a virus?  Find out with a FREE computer virus 
scan from McAfee.  Take the FreeScan now! 
http://clinic.mcafee.com/clinic/ibuy/campaign.asp?cid=3963


From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger"  7-NOV-2003 12:17:08.10
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Ethics, Ethical behaviour and Ethical animal care

Mike Meredith wrote:
For those who prefer mortal combat as the way to create a world that is 
correct, safe or nice, then this book can still be useful - it's a very 
handy size for bashing over the head those people who refuse to share your 
narrow-minded, self-righteous vision.  By sheer coincidence I am auctioning 
off a copy of this book over the next few days, see 
www.pighealth.com/offers/welfare.htm     for details.

Thanks to everyone for a very stimulating (rarely dull!) discussion list.
=======ditto  :)

======paragraph above quite relevant to my thoughts this AM after listening 
to news hour.  I know there is good news in places all over the world, but 
after daily (and repetitious) dose of bad news I heard from NPR, Jim Lehrer, 
etc., I had a minor epiphany.
Not only do many governments/cultures/sects prefer mortal combat, many other 
govt/cultures/sects get to that point through ignorance, laziness, 
carelessness, and lack of empathy for other people.  If one country such as 
the US could have a paradigm shift from solving (and I use that term 
reluctantly) world problems through economic sanctions and warfare to 
solving genocide, injustice, poverty and greed with solutions that actually 
pay attention to needs of whole populations, the present-day anarchy and 
terrorism may decline to negligible amounts.  I won't give away my political 
affiliation, but between GW BUsh, the daily sensational news about the 
extents of human behavior, and what I see going on in my own town, I'm 
gradually losing faith in ourselves and our ability to survive to the 23rd 
century.
      Jo

_________________________________________________________________
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From:	IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net"  "h.m."  7-NOV-2003 13:34:19.79
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	spay/neuter - the reasons

A spay that causes leakage is a spay done incorrectly.  In the world of
companion rabbits who are always neutered, we are quite aware of the
problems of incorrectly done neuters and spays.  We are also quite aware
of the changes that neuters and spays bring about in an animals'
behavior.

But in the case of house/companion rabbits, the neuter/spay is done for
several reasons:

- The rabbit lives a long life if neutered/spay - chances (at least in
the female) of reproductive cancer by age 3 is astronomically high.
Neutered/spayed domestic rabbits can live to be 12 years old or older.

- Unspayed rabbits have babies and for every baby that is born, there is
one less abandoned rabbit you could foster or give a home to.

- Unspayed rabbits and unneutered rabbits can often (not always) be very
hard to keep in a home or with humans.  Because people don't know that
that they CAN spay/neuter pet rabbits there is a really high abandonment
rate of rabbits when they reach six months to a year old.  

My own opinion is, and this applies to dogs and cats too, is to
neuter/spay pets.  Yes, you get personality changes and all the changes
that go with this procedure (hysterectomies in women) / lack of hormones
but the benefits to that rabbit's (dog/cat) quality of life can be
enormous over the years.

I am really sorry that your dog's spay caused leakage.  Vet's are
getting more skilled at these surgeries and this shouldn't happen.  For
rabbits, they are recommending always using laser surgery which
minimizes scar tissues/possible pain from adhesions -- but a skilled
surgeon using standard scapel and stitches can do fine surgery.  In the
rabbit pet world we always pray quite a lot when a female rabbit goes in
for this procedure.  They can die - it is rare with the new gases, but
it still happens -- or there are side effects.  But if you don't spay
that rabbit it can die before your eyes with uterine bleedout at age 3.

H.m.


-----Original Message-----
From: Jo Angleberger [mailto:warblerneck@hotmail.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 10:49 AM
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Re: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

Minna wrote:

veterinarians suggest to have a male dog neutered, without telling the
whole
truth what will happen. It is not unusual that a neutered male dog get
attacked by females and mounted by other male dogs. And spayed females
change too, many get more male like - many have incontinence problems.
We
should try to respect the rights and needs of other species and remember
that their point of view is very different from ours.

======my Jackie was spayed at 8 months and we both had to deal with her 
leakage for the rest of her 17 years.  She didn't like it, neither did
I.  
Your point also leads me to wonder if spaying and neutering can also
alter 
hormone production so that other problems follow OR are exacerbated:
such 
as osteoarthritis and spinal problems in dogs past 8 years.
       Jo

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From:	IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net"  "h.m."  7-NOV-2003 13:41:53.87
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	breeding for certain characteristics - ethics question

I have wondered why no one has criticized breeders/breed-standards for
breeding dogs for 4 " tails (britany spaniel, I believe).  If it is
wrong to dock a tail to 4 " for "looks" then logically I would guess
that it is ethically wrong to breed the dog for the same result.

I am interested in this because there is a very famous rabbit meat
scientist who is presently breeding near-furless (this doesn't bother
me) and furless (this bothers me) rabbits.  Rabbits, unlike cats or
dogs, groom for many many hours - the fur is groomed 3x fully each day
-- many times more than a cat.  Rabbits depend on their fur for other
reasons and I consider it highly highly unethical to breed a rabbit for
no-fur just so you can have it live in tropical climates / tolerate
heat.  Those tropical rabbits aren't going to be protected from insects
in those climates and now won't even have fur.

h.m.




From:	IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net"  "h.m."  7-NOV-2003 14:06:27.11
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	OT: Minna V./ lop-eared rabbits

When I first got a pet rabbit I thought that lop-eared rabbits were
cute.  I still do actually - and my first pets were lops.  Then, an
uppity eared rabbit came into our lives and I learned that a rabbit is a
rabbit is a rabbit and that it didn't "matter" what breed, color, or
ears it had.   And, over the years (this took years for me) I became
increasingly sad for Lops.  I don't think that I could, knowing what I
know now, breed for this characteristic in a rabbit.  It is exceedingly
cute - I LOVE the lop look - but now everytime I look at my ten year old
Lop and my 7 year old Lop I realize how sad it is that they can't do the
things with their ears that Inky (the big black uppity eared fur-breed
rabbit) can do.  Inky's ears FOLD lengthwise.  He can lay them flat,
folded.  He can raise one to listen while you are petting the other.
They are tiny radar dishes.  It is amazing.  My only consoling thought
is that a Lop never "knows" what it missed.  Its ears were like that
when it was born.
h.m.
-----Original Message-----
From: Minna Vuolle [mailto:minna.vuolle@datazug.ch] 
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 12:40 AM
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Re: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

Dear h.m and all

In deed, we humans really should consider what we breed. There are dog
breeds that can not breath normally, that can not move and run normally
and
so on. And as a result of mutations and selections dogs' tails have
various
forms and shapes and some of them aren't purposeful for communication.
The
same is true with dog's ears. Dogs also use their ears  for
communication,
so dogs with extremely long and heavy ears have a disadvantage. 

From:	IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk"  "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?="  8-NOV-2003 03:49:10.47
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: amputation

For me, the word 'amputation' does not carry negative
emotional connotations over and above that which would
normally be associated with the pain and loss of
functionality experienced from loss/removal of a limb.
 It is accurate in describing the action and therefore
I think we should promote use of the word in this
situation.  If we take the alternative route, we
sanitise the language we use and hide the true
meanings of our action and the consequences.  This
then divorces us from the pain and suffering we are
(potentially) causing.
Examples:
The term 'beak-TRIMMING' is used to describe removal
of  half to a third of the beak of layer hens to
prevent them feather pecking.  In reality, the cut
goes though innervated bone tissue within the beak. 
The hens experience acute pain and neuroma formation
can cause chronic pain. The term 'partial beak
amputation' is much more accurate and serves as a
reminder of what we do routinely to millions of birds
each year.
The term 'MULESING' is used to describe surgery on the
back-side of sheep to reduce fly-strike.  In reality,
a sharp instrument is used to cut a sometimes large
amount of skin from the body of an unanesthetised
animal (which is often also castrated in the process).
The phrases we use for meat tend to divorce us from
the  fact that these are sentient animals that we are
eating.  Hence, pigs become 'bacon', cattle become
'beef' and sheep become 'mutton'. 

I'm all for accuracy of word useage, not hiding behind
euphemisms or avoiding words because they might have
negative connotations for some.


Jackie Perkins wrote-
The word AMPUTATION carries a lot of negative baggage.
To use it when
referring to tail docking is to "load the dice" and
try to emotively
sway opinions. The practice was not previously
described as amputation,
so why try to redefine it now? Answer: to gain a
rhetorical device. 
It certainly only means removal of a limb to your
every day person who
naturally anthropomorphizes, applying the word first
to the human form. 
When attempting to have an ethical discussion progress
can only be
hindered by trying to smuggle in negative
connotations. It is a sneaky
way of trying to morally blacken the practice before
the practice has
been duly considered. 
Jackie Perkins
Veterinary Behaviour Consultant
Australia 



.......................................................................................................
Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists
(Why spoil a good story with the facts?)

---------------------------------
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<DIV>For me, the word 'amputation' does not carry negative<BR>emotional connotations over and above that which would<BR>normally be associated with the pain and loss of<BR>functionality experienced from loss/removal of a limb.<BR> It is accurate in describing the action and therefore<BR>I think we should promote use of the word in this<BR>situation.&nbsp; If we take the alternative route, we<BR>sanitise the language we use and hide the true<BR>meanings of our action and the consequences.&nbsp; This<BR>then divorces us from the pain and suffering we are<BR>(potentially) causing.<BR>Examples:<BR>The term 'beak-TRIMMING' is used to describe removal<BR>of&nbsp; half to a third of the beak of layer hens to<BR>prevent them feather pecking.&nbsp; In reality, the cut<BR>goes though innervated bone tissue within the beak. <BR>The hens experience acute pain and neuroma formation<BR>can cause chronic pain. The term 'partial beak<BR>amputation' is much more accurate and serves as a<BR>r!
 eminder
 of what we do routinely to millions of birds<BR>each year.<BR>The term 'MULESING' is used to describe surgery on the<BR>back-side of sheep to reduce fly-strike.&nbsp; In reality,<BR>a sharp instrument is used to cut a sometimes large<BR>amount of skin from the body of an unanesthetised<BR>animal (which is often also castrated in the process).<BR>The phrases we use for meat tend to divorce us from<BR>the&nbsp; fact that these are sentient animals that we are<BR>eating.&nbsp; Hence, pigs become 'bacon', cattle become<BR>'beef' and sheep become 'mutton'. <BR><BR>I'm all for accuracy of word useage, not hiding behind<BR>euphemisms or avoiding words because they might have<BR>negative connotations for some.<BR><BR><BR>Jackie Perkins wrote-<BR>The word AMPUTATION carries a lot of negative baggage.<BR>To use it when<BR>referring to tail docking is to "load the dice" and<BR>try to emotively<BR>sway opinions. The practice was not previously<BR>described as amputation,<BR>so why try !
 to
 redefine it now? Answer: to gain a<BR>rhetorical device. <BR>It certainly only means removal of a limb to your<BR>every day person who<BR>naturally anthropomorphizes, applying the word first<BR>to the human form. <BR>When attempting to have an ethical discussion progress<BR>can only be<BR>hindered by trying to smuggle in negative<BR>connotations. It is a sneaky<BR>way of trying to morally blacken the practice before<BR>the practice has<BR>been duly considered. <BR>Jackie Perkins<BR>Veterinary Behaviour Consultant<BR>Australia <BR></DIV><BR><BR>.......................................................................................................<br>Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists<br>(Why spoil a good story with the facts?)<p><hr size=1><font face="Arial" size="2">Want to chat instantly with your online friends? <a href="http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/mail/tagline_messenger/*http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com/"><b>Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger</b></a></font>

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From:	IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com"  "John Burchard"  8-NOV-2003 19:25:19.93
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology list"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Ethics, Ethical behaviour and Ethical animal care

Michael Meredith wrote:
> 
> John Lane has draw our attention to the big problem with ethics i.e. that it
> can be very personal and very situational (what is wrong in one situation
> can be right in another).
> 
> It is tempting in this situation to retreat into the safer, more solid,
> world of purely scientific [*] ethology and reject ethics as too irrational,
> subjective and inconsistent for an ethologist to be concerned with.
> 
> Even worse would be to stay locked in a clash of ideologies, especially if
> we confuse our ideology (how we would like things to be) with our reality
> (what is actually real, solid and happening).  Unfortunately, reality can be
> almost as subjective and personal a phenomenon as ideology, but let's not go
> into those deep waters just now!
> 
> [Footnote: * the ancient word "science", meaning "knowledge", has been hi-jacked by
> 20th century researchers who use the knowledge paradigm of "relative positivism".
> BUT 20th century "objective" relative positivism is only one of many forms
> of "knowing" (science)].

Um, yes, certainly ... one with the convenient attribute of verifiability <G>.

I'm not sure about the "isms" - never having been very comfortable with all the
labels - but the nature of the *process* can be described in fairly unequivocal
terms.

There are indeed many other ways of "knowing" although it gets interesting when
the different ways of knowing don't produce congruent results.  As a sort of
20th century fossil, a "scientist" to be sure in the formal definition, but with
very wide ranging interests outside of "science," I seem to remember that was
fairly well understood in my student days, now more than 50 years ago ...

> The Practical Value of Ethics
> ------------------------------------
> There is no need to abandon hope that ethics will never get us anywhere -
> ethical codes have been a key part of human society for at least 30,000
> years.

Quite possible, indeed overwhelmingly probable in fact, but as a "scientist" I
have to ask, how do you know?  The earliest written records date back only to
the invention of writing, a little more than 5,000 years ago.  To be sure, some
of those early writings record much older legendary or mythical material with a
high ethical content ... but unless I have missed something, *dating* that older
material with any kind of accuracy is beyond our reach.

> Coming to some mutually-agreed practical code of thinking, feeling and
> behaving may involve us in a great deal of human intra-species conflict
> and - often just as difficult - a certain amount of intra-personal conflict
> within ourself. However, once the code is agreed, it becomes potentially a
> basis for reducing conflict and for enhancing social group efficiency and
> effectiveness.
> 
> Integrating beliefs and values (conscience, ethics) with practical behaviour can
> enhance personal effectiveness due to what is sometimes termed "congruent
> power" - the focussed effort that results from internal harmony
> (congruency, being "together" as an individual, or having "wholeness").
> 
> At the group level, there are of course parallels for the enhanced
> effectiveness of congruent (holistic) harmony in social groups of humans and
> animals who have agreed codes of behaviour.
> 
> Chapter and Verse on Ethics
> ------------------------------------
> Gary Comstock of the Iowa State Bioethics programme has written a superbly
> clear and well-structured chapter in the multi-author manual "Livestock,
> Ethics and Quality of Life" in which he examines piece by piece the
> confusion about what ethics is, then moves on to look at its modern role in
> Animal Science.
> 
> Fascinatingly, he then goes on to trace the roots of Animal Science ethics
> back to our hunter-gatherer ancestors and their tradition of ethics
> communicated via myths and legends. From here he traces the evolution of
> bioethics to the pastoral nomads and early farmers. The importance of ethics
> in our relationships with animals and with each other is abundantly clear.
> Understanding it's evolution may help us to approach it more
> constructively - with a heightened sense of perspective, mutual respect and
> recognition.
> 
> I would really recommend this book as helpful reading for anyone  interested
> in progressing ethological understanding and the art of human/human and
> human/animal co-creation.

OK, I'm sold <G>.  Sounds fascinating.

John
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com



From:	IN%"Michalchik@aol.com"  8-NOV-2003 21:51:22.31
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Do animals lead their targets?

When a predator is running or flying to intercept a prey, does it always move 
directly towards the prey or does it anticipate that the prey will tend to 
move in the same direction due to momentum? If animals lead their targets, is 
this instinctive or learned behavior?

From:	IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net"  "h.m."  8-NOV-2003 21:58:57.10
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Do animals lead their targets?

Years ago I watched a young bald eagle fly out from a branch . out out
out and then sllloowwwwly ascend a thermal.  When he got high enough he
suddenly put on the speed straight for an osprey.   The osprey didn't
have a chance, turned upside down and dropped the fish it carried.  The
eagle got the fish.
 
The eagle didn't fly directly toward the osprey in the beginning.  He
knew where he wanted to go and how to get there.
Heather
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 8:51 PM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Do animals lead their targets?
 
When a predator is running or flying to intercept a prey, does it always
move directly towards the prey or does it anticipate that the prey will
tend to move in the same direction due to momentum? If animals lead
their targets, is this instinctive or learned behavior?

From:	IN%"Michalchik@aol.com"  8-NOV-2003 22:21:49.38
To:	IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Do animals lead their targets?

In a message dated 11/8/2003 8:08:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,=20
oryctolagus@earthlink.net writes:
Years ago I watched a young bald eagle fly out from a branch =E2=80=A6 out o=
ut out=20
and then sllloowwwwly ascend a thermal.  When he got high enough he suddenly=
 put=20
on the speed straight for an osprey.   The osprey didn=E2=80=99t have a chan=
ce,=20
turned upside down and dropped the fish it carried.  The eagle got the fish.
=20
The eagle didn=E2=80=99t fly directly toward the osprey in the beginning.  H=
e knew=20
where he wanted to go and how to get there.
Heather
=20
Interesting, but how do we know that the eagle didn't see the opportunity=20
after it had ascended? I presume many birds will ascend and ride thermals as=
 part=20
of their normal exploratory behavior.

From:	IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net"  "h.m."  8-NOV-2003 22:45:58.31
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Do animals lead their targets?

The timing of the two (eagle and osprey) and the actual space involved
was too close.  As I don't have film of it, it is just opinion; but,
there were two other observers - one very experienced.   There was
little chance that the osprey could have gotten to where it was in the
airspace without the eagle having had seen it from the time it took off.
In my opinion.
 
Pet rabbits (bet you thought I would forget to mention pet rabbits ; ) )
have been reported to work in pairs to get at food.  One distracts the
human (who blocks access to the food - apple core habitually left in a
certain wastebasket by a computer) and the other gets the core.  Once
the core is retrieved, the first rabbit suddenly leaves the human and
both race away with the core.  It took a few times for the human to
catch onto the teamwork going on (about 5 times if I recall).  Of
course, the apple cores were not live prey, but it does show planning on
the part of the animal going after the food.  If this seems
unbelievable, realize that wild rabbits can live to be 8 yrs old and
mate for life - male pet rabbits are reported to deliver food to the
female and wait until she eats.  It is also reported that if you give a
bonded-pair a novel food that some males will eat it first, and the
female waits (this is called by pet owners a food-taster strategy, much
like dignitaries having someone taste their foods for poison <grin>).
None of these strategies appear in all rabbits/all pairs, just now and
then. 
 
Farley Mowat (spelling?) reported a wolf who couldn't catch water birds
near a stream.  The wolf finally fell over on its side, rolled onto its
back and flailed around.  The birds were curious apparently and came in
to look, and the wolf suddenly recovered and caught one.
Heather
 
 
-----Original Message-----
From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] 
Sent: Saturday, November 08, 2003 9:21 PM
To: oryctolagus@earthlink.net; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Re: Do animals lead their targets?
 
In a message dated 11/8/2003 8:08:11 PM Pacific Standard Time,
oryctolagus@earthlink.net writes:
Years ago I watched a young bald eagle fly out from a branch . out out
out and then sllloowwwwly ascend a thermal.  When he got high enough he
suddenly put on the speed straight for an osprey.   The osprey didn't
have a chance, turned upside down and dropped the fish it carried.  The
eagle got the fish.
 
The eagle didn't fly directly toward the osprey in the beginning.  He
knew where he wanted to go and how to get there.
Heather
 
Interesting, but how do we know that the eagle didn't see the
opportunity after it had ascended? I presume many birds will ascend and
ride thermals as part of their normal exploratory behavior.

From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 03:27:32.14
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

Carol,
If dogs are included into our social group, then they will also be
subjected to various rituals too. Dogs are included into our social
group. They are not sacred cows and necessarily will be subjected to
rituals, some may be painful. Would you want to ban male circumcision
(painful), female non-radical circumcision (painful), tattooing
(painful), body piercing (painful), wearing rings around the neck (may
be painful), desexing of dogs (painful)etc etc etc. Pain has little to
do with whether or not a procedure is deemed ethical. 

What many people on this list write could easily be interpreted as
provocative by what is unsaid and invisible. The brevity of one of your
former answers for instance trivialized the ethical importance of
desexing. Desexing is in fact a highly dubious procedure ethically and
if pulled apart rationally may be in fact far more intrusive than tail
docking. Would you rather be spayed as a young woman, or have a limb
removed? Since people lack tails, it is difficult to find an equivalent.
It can not be doubted that desexing profoundly alters a dog's physical,
mental, and behavioural capacities. And it is painful, and not
absolutely necessary. Clearly, you are an insider when it comes to the
practice of desexing. 
Companion animals (mainly dogs and cats) do have rights in excess of
what most other animals have. They are treated as pseudo-members of our
society. 
When dealing with the human-animal interactions between companion
animals and humans, it is necessary to look to sociology anthropology
and other humanities to understand the relationship and rituals. My
veterinary colleagues do not do this. They seemingly have a blind spot
when it comes to the humanities. 
The concept of insider and outsider is sociological. Rituals can only be
understood from within the sociological context of origin. People who do
not share in a ritual can not understand it. They are outsiders and
likely to fear or despise such foreign rituals. Trained sociologists can
come to understand any ritual through study of its culture.   
I have a classical education in addition to a scientific one but am not
a sociologist. I know just enough to have respect for what I do not
know. My veterinary colleagues do not seem even aware of what they do
not know in this regard. 
I am suggesting that maybe sociologically and perhaps ethically tail
docking is equivalent to circumcision and various other rituals. This
topic is worthy of research, which must involve humanities experts. But
such research was never encouraged by my veterinary colleagues, nor will
it ever occur now. As I said previously, tail docking has been summarily
dealt with by those unqualified to do so. 
It seems to me that political correctness is a current movement whereby
any given practice is tagged as morally or ethically black, and that is
the end of the matter. Typically it is begun or buoyed by people with
powerful positions who are supposed to be responsible for the management
of ethical issues. There is limited opportunity to research challenge or
question the issue. Reason is not encouraged just moralizing hysteria. I
have witnessed numerous of my veterinary colleagues throw what I
consider to be moral tantrums whenever a politically correct idea is
challenged. They hand wave, hands on hips, declare how terrible such a
practice is, say things like "don't you just hate it when people say
things like that". They make it very clear that the subject is not up
for rational discussion. The sum total of their argument and tantrum,
when all of the performance rhetoric is removed, would be as
unsubstantial as "I dislike the practice". Because the moral tantruming
is initially performed by those in positions of relative power, others
just follow. Others are not encouraged to think for themselves, get out
of their comfort zone to better understand issues, be tolerant or
rational. 
The whole concept of political correctness does not invite reasoned
argument. Moral pressure is used to discourage reasoned argument.  
Your questions are far reaching and could be the subject of much
research. My answers are brief. Good questions though. 
Regards, Jackie.
Subject: RE: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

Jackie
Perhaps you can explain this 'tirade' further, as I just do not follow
your logic or the point of it; what 'rights' did you have in mind?  The
right not to have unnecessary pain inflicted on them?  Who are these
outsiders?  Outside what?  Are you suggesting that circumcision of
humans (men and women) can be equated to tail-docking of dogs?  Is that
physically?  Psychologically?  Ethically?  What do you mean by political
correctness?  In what way does it make people conform?

Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences 
Department of Primary Industries

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] 
Sent:	Thursday, 6 November 2003 12:51 PM
To:	Petherick, Carol; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject:	"citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

If dogs are considered citizens, and given certain rights,
anthropomorphized, then they necessarily will be subjected to certain
human rituals too which may include tattooing tail docking dressing up
in pink ribbons etc etc etc. Why should a handful of "outsiders" dictate
what relatively harmless rituals are "good" and "evil"? No-one has been
able to coherently explain why tail docking is worse than circumcision.
Some humans willingly circumcise their babies. Their babies can not make
an informed consent. Should dogs be better protected (or more highly
regulated) than babies??
Circumcision was not banned, just regulated. Why could not tail docking
have been firstly more thoroughly researched, and secondly, regulated. I
have really had it with this attitude of banning whatever is not deemed
politically correct for today. I believe it is all about appearances,
for those motivated by political correctness. Political correctness is
all about pressuring people into conformity with some narrow fashion
ideal; it is the antithesis of academia enlightenment tolerance and
learning. I hope one day the tide of political correctness turns on
those who propagate it. 
Jackie Perkins


-----Original Message-----
From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au] 
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:55 PM
To: oryctolagus; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
molecular biology?

Dear Heather
I suspect your last sentence provides the explanation.  I don't know the
full story (and sorry, don't have time to research it all), but I
strongly suspect that this experimental work has been marketed/sold on
the basis of the potential good it will do to humans/and or animals
(skin grafts, new organs/tissues grown to replace burned/missing parts)
and is acceptable to the public and those setting welfare/ethical
standards because the potential benefits outweigh the negatives (in
terms of negative impacts on animal welfare).  I find it hard to see how
tail-docking for cosmetic purposes can ever be justified, as there are
lots of negatives and no potential benefits for the animals.

Carol

Carol Petherick
Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences 
Department of Primary Industries

Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au

 -----Original Message-----
From: 	oryctolagus [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net] 
Sent:	Friday, 31 October 2003 11:57 AM
To:	applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject:	What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
molecular biology?

Why is everyone so upset about tail docking and removal of dew claws,
when molecular biologists in mainland China and here in the USA have
been busy doing such industry-supported things as attaching a baby rat's
head to the side of an adult (both lived) and in rabbits, removing the
rabbit's ear and growing new human shaped ear on a cartilage matrix
where the rabbit-ear used to be? (this has been done in at least two
instances by molecular biologists).  The one Lady business owner who
displayed such a rabbit at a convention went on to be a Dean at a
prominent California Business college (
http://members.aol.com/salaned/writings/engineer.htm  from a former
molecular biologist (Salk Institute among others:
http://members.aol.com/salaned/cyberplace.html)   She founded the
company Advanced Tissue Sciences, displayed a rabbit at a bioartificial
organs conference which had a human ear grafted in place of its own ear.
The other instance of a rabbit having a human ear grown on its body was
by Cao Yilin, a Shanghai researcher who is also head of the Laboratory
of Soft Tissue Engineering at America's University of Massachusetts
(he's now back in China).

Shouldn't there be more biologists and ethicists *screaming* about the
ethics in the tissue regeneration research fields?  There is stuff going
on there that makes Frankenstein look tame; and, the scientists in the
field seem apparently proud of it.  Would such a law protect rabbits
used in molecular biology research?  Aren't these very famous, very
prestigious molecular biologists "amoral"?  They hold high respected
posts in their communities.  The lady doctor above is revered for her
work in childrens' burn therapy.  

H.Mcmurray 

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Beck <wheep@igrin.co.nz>
Sent: Oct 30, 2003 5:56 PM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: FW: tail docking
> - I assume this would be a judgement call best made by a Vet on a case
by
> case basis. The issue was tail docking, which I firmly believe to be
> ethically wrong - so why not keep it there rather than going off at a
> tangent?

I agree, but legislation which prohibits any "removal of body parts"
obviously
applies to "dew claws" too.  I'm not sure the ethical issues are really
so
very
different.  In both cases we are dealing with removal of a normally
functional
body part, which under certain circumstances, but not under others, may
be
liable to significant painful injury if not removed.  I don't wish to
appear
dense, but where's the difference?

Many veterinarians are not, I'm afraid, sufficiently familiar with the
realities
of working dogs to have a valid opinion on such matters.  At least in
this
country, the overwhelming majority of patients in the average practice
are
obese
family pets whose greatest athletic achievement is jumping on or off the
sofa. 
Those of us with high performance working dogs often travel hundreds of
miles to
find a veterinarian truly knowledgeable about their needs.

In the sighthounds with which I am most familiar I am opposed to the
removal
of
"dew claws" (front first digits) because they are functionally useful
and
because I disapprove of *any* unnecessary surgery, ablation or what
haveJohn
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com 

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From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 03:38:36.13
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: desexing is a mutilation too

Yes, that is a neutral term (tail truncation). Thanks. The question of
phantom pain, or neuroma formation, is very worthwhile. Once again, some
great research needs to be done. The quality of research is everything.
Research that sets out to prove the existence of phantom pain probably
will, and it will probably be fatally flawed research. The reverse is
also probably true. Research needs to be more genuine in its efforts to
find answers instead of what is politically correct. Genuine
impartiality and curiosity is important. 
Look at some of the research that psychology depts generate. Wow! They
have high standards. I truly wish I could say the same about more of the
veterinary ethics research I have seen.    
Does anyone have any worthwhile references on the topic of phantom pain?
There are probably some great human references. 
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Umstaetter, Christina [mailto:christina.umstaetter@wzw.tum.de] 
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 9:51 PM
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: AW: desexing is a mutilation too

I think we can't assume that the dogs have no phantom pain because the
biological basis is nearly the same. But I have read that people have
less
phantom pain if the removal ist done with anaesthesia.

Christina
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
-----
Dr. Christina Umstatter
Technische Universitat Munchen
Wissenschaftszentrum Weihenstephan
Department fur Biogene Rohstoffe und Technologie der Landnutzung
Lehrstuhl fuer Landtechnik
Am Staudengarten 2
D-85354 Freising-Weihenstephan
Tel:  +49 (0)8161 / 71-3884
Fax:  +49 (0)8161 / 71-3895
christina.umstaetter@wzw.tum.de <mailto:christina.umstaetter@wzw.tum.de>
<http://www.wzw.tum.de/> http://www.tec.wzw.tum.de/landtech/
<http://www.tec.wzw.tum.de/landtech/>  <http://www.wzw.tum.de/landtec/>
------------------------------------------------------------------------
----
-----



-----Ursprungliche Nachricht-----
Von: Francis Burton [mailto:F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk]
Gesendet: Donnerstag, 6. November 2003 12:26
An: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Betreff: RE: desexing is a mutilation too


At 13:53 06/11/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
>If the problem is merely a practical one involving pain, then analgesia
>is indicated.

Presumably this would apply to long-term pain too.

Does anyone know whether tail truncation (how's that for a
neutral term?) has consequences in terms of chronic pain?
I think it is reasonable to accept that such pain may be
present, by neurological extrapolation from humans' phantom
limb pain experiences.

Francis






From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 03:49:09.66
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician.

Is desexing "doing the right thing?" Doing the right thing is highly
subjective, and I am surprised that you would try to trivialize it.
Desexing is severely altering an animals physical mental and behavioural
capacities for the owners or societies mere convenience. Just because it
is not as visible as tail docking does not make it any less ethically
important. Would you rather be desexed, or have a body part removed? 
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu] 
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 12:08 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does
NOT make one a mathematician.

Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all about "doing the right
thing."

Cutting off the tail of an animal solely for purposes of giving pleasure
to
humans is _not_ doing "the right thing" for animals.

This is not a "straw man argument."  Nor is the statement one that could
be
said to be "political."  The statement has to do with "doing the right
thing" for animals.  It is a straightforward statement about ethics.
And it
is not a statement that is to be discussed only by persons who claim
ethics
as their profession.  All ("normal," adult, etc.) humans have the
ability to
engage in moral reasoning.  Most every modern person who has seriously
studied, written and(or) thought about this ability has concluded that
we
humans, therefore, are burdened with the responsibility/obligation of
using
this ability.

Ethics is absolutely something that we must learn about through
interactions
with others - and I would very much argue that we are individually
obligated
to expand our knowledge about formal ethics.  But ultimately we are to
use
this ability to reason about everyday issues having to do ethics and
morality in order to bring about "doing the right thing" - even if doing
the
right thing conflicts with actions that would beneficially serve us
individually, financially, professionally, or otherwise (but taking such
a
position, I would argue, must be done within the bounds of lawful, and
in
some cases, even pragmatic, bounds).

I would suggest that anyone who believes that it is morally acceptable
to
(surgically, mechanically, etc.) alter the appearance of animals solely
for
the sake of attaining human pleasure should present the ethical basis
for
their beliefs.  And I certainly would believe that a good starting point
for
persons wishing to pursue this endeavor would be to work with a
professional
ethicist.  I would indeed like to see the argument put forth by a person
formally trained in ethics for such a position.

(And by the way, I am not a mathematician but I am the research advisor
to a
student who will receive his PhD degree in Applied Mathematics at the
end of
this semester.  While I am not a mathematician, I most certainly do not
hesitate to use the tools available from mathematics and to work in
collaboration with persons who claim mathematics as their profession.
And
the same is true for ethics.)

W.R. Stricklin


-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:55 PM
To: 'Ray Stricklin'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Cc: Rachel Bowater
Subject: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT
make one a mathematician.


I suspect that philosophy depts are still the only place teaching formal
ethics. A sound basis in formal ethics would orientate the mind
correctly for contemplating specific issues. I have rarely seen applied
ethics by various depts even vaguely resemble formal ethics. Such
courses in applied ethics, without a formal basis, resemble political
arguments with moralistic overtones. What a parody of formal ethics!
Being capable of adding up does not qualify one to be a mathematician.
So too ethics is a subject area all its own and should be treated as
such. One needs specific learning to do it well! A BVSc or PhD does not
cut it. That is evident.
Those depts or individuals endeavouring to teach or publish applied
ethics should first acquire a basic education in ethics. Ethics is about
reasonableness, truth, equality, fairness, and most of all correctly
understanding various views at their strongest, not creating straw-man
arguments for the other side then proceeding to set them alight! Such
contempt for opposing views is rife in applied ethics and only furthers
ignorance. It is not till one understands their opponent's side so
thoroughly that they are seduced by it, that one is in a position to
fully criticize it. I have rarely seen such understanding displayed in
any of the so-called applied veterinary ethics arguments about tail
docking. They lack the mental tools obtainable from the study of formal
ethics. They appear to know so little about their subject that they are
unaware of their ignorance.
Jackie Perkins
Veterinary Behaviour Consultant
Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:04 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by
philosphy depts; probably still is!

A question raised below asks, "Where other than philosophy departments
is
ethics taught today?"  The answer is, "There are attempts to introduce
ethics in essentially every department of an up-to-date university!"

Check out of some of the hits from GOOGLE with the key words "ethics"
and
"NSF"  (NSF is the USA National Science Foundation, which funds a number
of
grants each year with the mission of introducing of ethics into "all"
science, medical and engineering courses.) Below are a few examples of
funded projects:

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/newsarch/1998/Mar98/bioethic.htm
CORVALLIS - Oregon State University has received a grant from the
National
Science Foundation to hold a National Bioethics Institute this summer to
help faculty from OSU and from around the country integrate ethics into
their science courses.
Only 30 faculty will be admitted into the institute - about half from
OSU
and the rest chosen from applications around the country.
The institute is one of three that the National Science Foundation will
fund
on bioethics during 1998-99, according to Courtney Campbell, director of
OSU's Program for Ethics, Science and the Environment.
"The relationship between ethics and science is becoming more pronounced
-
and is under greater scrutiny - than ever before," Campbell said. "It is
important to discuss these issues with students, but when ethics
professors
go into a science classroom, they don't necessarily have the credibility
with students, and it gives the appearance that ethics are peripheral to
the
'regular' curriculum.
"What we hope to do is begin training science faculty how to integrate
the
teaching of ethics throughout the curriculum."
Among the topics planned: ethical issues surrounding biotechnology, the
renewed interest in land ethics and natural resources, treatment of
animals,
and the role of religion.

http://www.cse.nd.edu/~kwb/nsf-ufe/
The field of "Ethics and Computing" encompasses a lot of territory.
Courses
in this area may be taught in programs such as Information Systems,
Computer
Science, Computer Engineering and Electrical Engineering. Material in
this
area may be taught as a stand-alone course and/or as modules in courses
throughout the curriculum. Whatever teaching responsibility you have
related
to this area, the materials here should help you to teach ethics and
computing in a way that provides rigorous, relevant and effective
learning
experiences for your students.

http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/ses/sdest/start.htm
The Societal Dimensions of Engineering, Science, and Technology (SDEST)
program contains two components: Ethics and Values Studies, and Research
on
Science and Technology. The program announcement is NSF 01-152. Target
dates
for submitting proposals are February 1 and August 1. In SDEST, the
Ethics
and Values Studies (EVS) component focuses on developing and
transmitting
knowledge about ethical and value dimensions associated with science,
engineering, and technology




-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 6:16 PM
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by philosphy
depts; probably still is!


Well then where are those arguments? And where is the research? The
propaganda put out by some of my colleagues was not of a publishable
standard yet somehow was published...it would not have passed
introductory ethics though may have obtained a pass in politics. I think
you are confusing veterinary ethics with veterinary politics. Ethics is
NOT spelled P_O_L_I_T_I_C_S! Why don't any practicing veterinary
ethicists display a basic education in ethics? I think you are very
confused about what ethics is. Why not take a course in basic ethics at
one of the main universities and find out? None of us should ever think
we know it all. A veterinary degree, even a PhD does NOT confer ethics
capabilities. I am constantly amazed that the public would ask doctors
et









From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 03:59:02.82
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: norms and mores;

Tail docking is definitely an ethical issue, but no less so than
numerous other condoned practices. So why was the practice of tail
docking singled out over practices that effect animals more profoundly?
I suspect that due to political correctness where appearances are
paramount (substance and ethics take a back seat), and the results of
tail docking are highly visible PLUS those practicing it were easily
minoritised due in part to their relatively small numbers, the practice
of tail docking became a convenient and easy target. I consider these to
be all of the wrong reasons for eliminating the practice. They are
political reasons, and NOT lofty ethical reasons. Also, due process and
research were not performed. 
Each and every one of us carries memes which are irrational. Ordering
people to suddenly stop is as silly as ordering blue eyed people to stop
having blue eyes. 
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu] 
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 12:36 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: norms and mores; 

But surely no one would argue that causing the death of another human is
morally the same as tail-docking!  I would hope that no one today would
contend that these two acts are of equal magnitude.  The statement
(below)
comparing the "punishment" administered for these acts is a statement
about
the (apparent) unfairness of the judicial system - not a statement about
ethics per se - not a statement about the acts themselves.

And I would hope that a person educated and trained as a veterinary
surgeon
would consider cutting off the tail of an animal as being more than
simply
an issue about fashion and politics.  Surely a person within the
veterinary
profession would contend that removal of an animal's tail has something
to
do with the animal itself and thus is not just a question about what is
important to humans (fashion and politics).  Therefore, I would hope
that a
veterinarian would contend that taildocking does indeed involve the
question
of humaneness to animals.

W.R. Stricklin



-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:51 PM
To: 'Ray Stricklin'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: norms and mores;


You commented previously that it was silly to include tail-docking in
the same category as murder? I do not believe so. Look at some facts. If
I were to tail dock now I would be fined $7500 and very likely be struck
off from the Veterinary Surgeon's register and lose my liveliehood. If I
were found responsible for some negligent death or injury, say in a
motor vehicle accident, I would get off much more lightly; probably
receive community service.
Sociologists divide breaches of the social code into two categories:
norms and mores. Breaching a norm is not punishable at law eg picking
ones nose in public. Breaching a more is punishable at law eg murder,
rape, speeding, tail docking. Previously tail docking was not even a
norm. It has artificially evolved from accepted practice to more in the
blink of an eye. I do not believe humaneness has anything to do with it.
It is all about politics and fashion.
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 3:08 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Human controlling animals


The position of Lorenz and other ethologists represented a paradigm
shift
relative to the views of either Descartes or Watson.  No one familiar
with
the literature would attempt to argue otherwise.

W.R. Stricklin


-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 7:22 PM
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Human controlling animals


I do not think Descartes or Watson believed animals had no feelings; no
soul in a religious sense perhaps, but then most religion still believes
this to this very day! Reading Descartes or Watson and superficially
understanding them may lead one to this conclusion.
Jackie Perkins









From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 04:01:22.50
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Info on Torn Dew Claws

Veterinarians did not perform dew claw removal years ago. A friendly
neighbour could have dropped in and done it. 
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu] 
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 12:54 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Info on Torn Dew Claws

I can state with certainty that _none_ (with the possible exception of
the
original Border Collie bitch) had their dew claws removed at birth.  I
know
this because the majority of the pups were from litters originating from
dogs of family and/or friends.  These were not house pets and they
certainly
were not "show dogs."  As I said, these dogs had essentially no contact
with
a veterinarian - because much of the time (30 to 50 years ago) the
nearest
vet was 60 to 100 miles away - and with the exception of broken limbs
for
dogs, vet costs were generally considered necessary/possible only for
horses, mules, and sometimes cattle.

W.R. Stricklin

-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:56 PM
To: 'Ray Stricklin'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Info on Torn Dew Claws


In my experience dew claw trauma is indeed common place, probably
certain breeds/conformations are more vulnerable. For example toy breeds
or any dogs with loosely connected dew claws may be more vulnerable. Dew
claw removal used to be routine in years gone by so of course injured
dew claws were never seen at a veterinary clinic; perhaps your dogs had
them removed. Our Corgis always had them removed though I was not aware
of that when I was very young.
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu]
Sent: Sunday, November 02, 2003 3:57 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Info on Torn Dew Claws

Does anyone have access to a document on dew claw removal that is of a
similar type to the information posted by Andreas on tail docking of
dogs?






From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 04:13:28.75
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: RE: de sexing is a mutilation too

I do not dispute the convenience of desexing. I usually briefly counsel
owners about the pros and cons of desexing. Undesexed animals require a
greater degree of responsibility on the owner's part. Desexing has
become enculturated. So has tail docking. It is no less real and
important to some. Humans are a visually based species. The appearance
of our dogs is obviously important to us. Should we be culturally
tolerant of the practice or not? This question was never asked nor
answered. 
Jackie Perkins 

-----Original Message-----
From: Hilit Finkler [mailto:finklerh@post.tau.ac.il] 
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 2:53 AM
To: D.B. Cameron; Applied-Ethology
Subject: RE: RE: de sexing is a mutilation too

Ethically speaking you are correct, but in real life there are too many
cats
and dogs (our fault of course)
and this is one of the more humane ways to control their numbers!
What is the aim of ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal,
animal
welfare wise?

-----Original Message-----
From: D.B. Cameron [mailto:orion1432@juno.com]
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 12:34 PM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Cc: orion1432@juno.com
Subject: Fw: RE: de sexing is a mutilation too



Jackie,

Well stated.

I was about to ask why ear cropping, tail docking, and dewclaw removal
is
considered by many to be unethical and/or mutilations, when (probably)
these same people all but demand far more brutal, and far more
mutilating
castrations and ovary removal . . . and currently at a very young age.
And these people make no mention of the fact that this de-sexing surgery
is far more likely to cause long term behavior changes including
guaranteed sexual behavior changes.

The usual excuse is that the ends justify the means, but that concept is
about as unethical as there is. The Nazis tried it and got hung in
Nuremburg.

Comments?


                   DBC



On Thu, 30 Oct 2003 12:49:02 +1000 Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> writes:
> Desexing described in detail would sound just as brutal!
> Jackie Perkins
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Robin Walker [mailto:coape@nildram.co.uk]
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 6:58 AM
> To: Applied Ethology Network
> Subject: RE-More on mutilations
>
>
> When the Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons ruled that docking
> should
> not be performed by its Registered Members I complied.
>
> I am bound by a code of ethics, which is not optional.
>
> To be so bound is be professional and to be worthy of trust.
>
> It was highly inconvenient, as I had performed this act when asked
> in
> the past. Among those denied this service were old clients who had
> come
> to me after operations, which were sometimes fatal, attended by
> undue
> haemorrhage and damage by chemical cautery.
>
> As a matter of interest, historical as it now is, the technique I
> devised addressed the complaints and mishaps of the past.
>
> At around 2 to 3 weeks of age, fit and likely pups were operated
> upon in
> this manner.
>
> The dam was out of earshot of the pups crying.
>
> The technique was to crush the tail at the required length with the
> jaws
> of piglet tooth cutters with the cutting edges filed flat. The
> closure
> was slow so as not to cut by rather crush in the manner of a
> burdizzo.
>
> The piercing alarm call resembled that emitted by a pup what was
> being
> squashed or hurt by any means.
>
> The jaws on the clippers there held closed to a full two minutes by
> the
> clock.
>
> The crying invariable ceased after a short time. For about a minute
> and
> a half there would be no sound and the puppies would seem to be
> asleep.
>
> The redundant tail was then twisted with a rotary movement very
> slowly
> until detached. The pressure of the closed clipper was maintained
> for a
> few more seconds prior to release.
>
> There would be no bleeding or further crying. Returned to the warm
> box
> the pups slept.
>
> By 1990 there were only a half dozen "breeders" in my Practice as I
> had
> effectively expelled those who required elective caesarians, bred
> extremely deformed types and were of a mind to dictate to me their
> terms
> and fees1
>
> My last and longest client was a breed of Pembroke Corgis who was
> insistent
> that my method was the best she had encountered. Furthermore, she
> convinced me that puppies "mutilated" (if you wish) in this manner
> could
> be identified by a straight "top-line".
>
> The alternative method favoured by home dockers and I must say, by
> the
> malcontents and rebels of my profession after the Ruling, was the
> rubber
> band.
>
> The banded pups do indeed have a different profile to the rump. The
> lower spine is curved downwards. It my sincere belief that the
> discomfort of protracted iscaemia can induce a postural deformity at
> a
> time when the pups are growing very fast indeed.
>
> Finally, I was convinced that a lengthy period of pain and a slowing
> of
> growth attended the use of the agricultural banding technique.
>
> Since "the Ruling", I have not performed this and now describe it as
> a
> curiosity or relic of the past.
>
> Why do it at all?
>
> The very small number of injured tails (or claws for that matter) in
> my
> records and recollection of 40 years cannot be stretched to justify
> routine ablation of tails or dewclaws.
>
> Latterly the Practice abounded with natural undocked dogs of all
> types.
>
> The simple issue here is the tyranny of custom and fashion.
>
> (The postural deformity theory could have been tested by recording,
> and
> measurement. Perhaps there are unreconstructed barbarians who would
> undertake such a study!)
>
>
> Robin Walker
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


      ^   ^          D. B. Cameron, DVM              Animal Behavior
Clinic
  <  \    /  >      15353 N. Bloomfield Road     Nevada City, CA 95959


       !   !                                           530.265.9341


        ..


              Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what ships
are for.





From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 04:23:50.90
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	rituals are not just about appearances

To claim that tail docking is performed solely for the purpose of giving
humans pleasure, is to completely miss the point about it being a
ritual. Why do humans perform tattooing, circumcision, piercing etc etc.
Rituals are enculturated after hundreds of years. That desexing is
performed merely for human convenience is more damning in my view. 
Jackie Perkins



From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 04:26:27.55
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician.

Apparently Ceann and Ray think that their personal version of "the right
thing" should be foisted upon everyone else!!!! Isn't that what the
Nazi's reasoning was?
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 5:14 AM
To: Ray Stricklin; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does
NOT make one a mathematician.


--- Ray Stricklin <wrstrick@umd.edu> wrote:
> Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all
> about "doing the right
> thing."
> 
.Dr. Stricklin,
  How refreshing to see that phrase.  Most decisions
we have to make really can be made simple by thinking
of that phrase before making the decision.
CeAnn

=====
CeAnn Lambert
Indiana Coyote Rescue Center
www.WolfPark.org/ICRC

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree




From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 04:30:20.35
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Ethics, Ethical behaviour and Ethical animal care

Yes Mike, I can agree (in certain situations). In my opinion this
highlights the need to develop a high degree of cultural tolerance by
all, and expect good quality impartial research. 
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: michael.meredith@btconnect.com
[mailto:michael.meredith@btconnect.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 9:16 PM
To: Ethology Posting
Subject: Re: Ethics, Ethical behaviour and Ethical animal care

John Lane has draw our attention to the big problem with ethics i.e.
that it
can be very personal and very situational (what is wrong in one
situation
can be right in another).

It is tempting in this situation to retreat into the safer, more solid,
world of purely scientific [*] ethology and reject ethics as too
irrational,
subjective and inconsistent for an ethologist to be concerned with.

Even worse would be to stay locked in a clash of ideologies, especially
if
we confuse our ideology (how we would like things to be) with our
reality
(what is actually real, solid and happening).  Unfortunately, reality
can be
almost as subjective and personal a phenomenon as ideology, but let's
not go
into those deep waters just now!

[Footnote: * the ancient word "science", meaning "knowledge", has been
hi-jacked by
20th century researchers who use the knowledge paradigm of "relative
positivism".
BUT 20th century "objective" relative positivism is only one of many
forms
of "knowing" (science)].

The Practical Value of Ethics
------------------------------------
There is no need to abandon hope that ethics will never get us anywhere
-
ethical codes have been a key part of human society for at least 30,000
years.

Coming to some mutually-agreed practical code of thinking, feeling and
behaving may involve us in a great deal of human intra-species conflict
and - often just as difficult - a certain amount of intra-personal
conflict
within ourself. However, once the code is agreed, it becomes potentially
a
basis for reducing conflict and for enhancing social group efficiency
and
effectiveness.

Integrating beliefs and values (conscience, ethics) with practical
behaviour
can
enhance personal effectiveness due to what is sometimes termed
"congruent
power" - the focussed effort that results from internal harmony
(congruency, being "together" as an individual, or having "wholeness").

At the group level, there are of course parallels for the enhanced
effectiveness of congruent (holistic) harmony in social groups of humans
and
animals who have agreed codes of behaviour.

Chapter and Verse on Ethics
------------------------------------
Gary Comstock of the Iowa State Bioethics programme has written a
superbly
clear and well-structured chapter in the multi-author manual "Livestock,
Ethics and Quality of Life" in which he examines piece by piece the
confusion about what ethics is, then moves on to look at its modern role
in
Animal Science.

Fascinatingly, he then goes on to trace the roots of Animal Science
ethics
back to our hunter-gatherer ancestors and their tradition of ethics
communicated via myths and legends. From here he traces the evolution of
bioethics to the pastoral nomads and early farmers. The importance of
ethics
in our relationships with animals and with each other is abundantly
clear.
Understanding it's evolution may help us to approach it more
constructively - with a heightened sense of perspective, mutual respect
and
recognition.

I would really recommend this book as helpful reading for anyone
interested
in progressing ethological understanding and the art of human/human and
human/animal co-creation.

For those who prefer mortal combat as the way to create a world that is
correct, safe or nice, then this book can still be useful - it's a very
handy size for bashing over the head those people who refuse to share
your
narrow-minded, self-righteous vision.


By sheer coincidence I am auctioning off a copy of this book over the
next
few days, see
www.pighealth.com/offers/welfare.htm     for details.


Thanks to everyone for a very stimulating (rarely dull!) discussion
list.
Mike Meredith
www.sunflower-health.com






From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 04:32:50.01
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

So are their sex organs yet we routinely remove those in this country. 
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Minna Vuolle [mailto:minna.vuolle@datazug.ch] 
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 5:37 PM
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Re: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals

Tail docking is not only a political issue. Dog's tail is important to
dogs
for their ability to communicate. Here in Switzerland tail docking has
been
forbidden already for many years.

Minna Vuolle




----- Original Message ----- 
From: "Geiger" <gooddog@dodo.com.au>
To: "'Petherick, Carol'" <Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au>; <Sent:
Thursday,
November 06, 2003 3:50 AM
Subject: "citizenship" confers subjectivity to rituals


> If dogs are considered citizens, and given certain rights,
> anthropomorphized, then they necessarily will be subjected to certain
> human rituals too which may include tattooing tail docking dressing up
> in pink ribbons etc etc etc. Why should a handful of "outsiders"
dictate
> what relatively harmless rituals are "good" and "evil"? No-one has
been
> able to coherently explain why tail docking is worse than
circumcision.
> Some humans willingly circumcise their babies. Their babies can not
make
> an informed consent. Should dogs be better protected (or more highly
> regulated) than babies??
> Circumcision was not banned, just regulated. Why could not tail
docking
> have been firstly more thoroughly researched, and secondly, regulated.
I
> have really had it with this attitude of banning whatever is not
deemed
> politically correct for today. I believe it is all about appearances,
> for those motivated by political correctness. Political correctness is
> all about pressuring people into conformity with some narrow fashion
> ideal; it is the antithesis of academia enlightenment tolerance and
> learning. I hope one day the tide of political correctness turns on
> those who propagate it.
> Jackie Perkins
>
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au]
> Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:55 PM
> To: oryctolagus; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: RE: What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
> molecular biology?
>
> Dear Heather
> I suspect your last sentence provides the explanation.  I don't know
the
> full story (and sorry, don't have time to research it all), but I
> strongly suspect that this experimental work has been marketed/sold on
> the basis of the potential good it will do to humans/and or animals
> (skin grafts, new organs/tissues grown to replace burned/missing
parts)
> and is acceptable to the public and those setting welfare/ethical
> standards because the potential benefits outweigh the negatives (in
> terms of negative impacts on animal welfare).  I find it hard to see
how
> tail-docking for cosmetic purposes can ever be justified, as there are
> lots of negatives and no potential benefits for the animals.
>
> Carol
>
> Carol Petherick
> Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare)
> Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences
> Department of Primary Industries
>
> Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390
> Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au
>
>  -----Original Message-----
> From: oryctolagus [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net]
> Sent: Friday, 31 October 2003 11:57 AM
> To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
> Subject: What about "ear docking" in rabbits done in the name of
> molecular biology?
>
> Why is everyone so upset about tail docking and removal of dew claws,
> when molecular biologists in mainland China and here in the USA have
> been busy doing such industry-supported things as attaching a baby
rat's
> head to the side of an adult (both lived) and in rabbits, removing the
> rabbit's ear and growing new human shaped ear on a cartilage matrix
> where the rabbit-ear used to be? (this has been done in at least two
> instances by molecular biologists).  The one Lady business owner who
> displayed such a rabbit at a convention went on to be a Dean at a
> prominent California Business college (
> http://members.aol.com/salaned/writings/engineer.htm  from a former
> molecular biologist (Salk Institute among others:
> http://members.aol.com/salaned/cyberplace.html)   She founded the
> company Advanced Tissue Sciences, displayed a rabbit at a
bioartificial
> organs conference which had a human ear grafted in place of its own
ear.
> The other instance of a rabbit having a human ear grown on its body
was
> by Cao Yilin, a Shanghai researcher who is also head of the Laboratory
> of Soft Tissue Engineering at America's University of Massachusetts
> (he's now back in China).
>
> Shouldn't there be more biologists and ethicists *screaming* about the
> ethics in the tissue regeneration research fields?  There is stuff
going
> on there that makes Frankenstein look tame; and, the scientists in the
> field seem apparently proud of it.  Would such a law protect rabbits
> used in molecular biology research?  Aren't these very famous, very
> prestigious molecular biologists "amoral"?  They hold high respected
> posts in their communities.  The lady doctor above is revered for her
> work in childrens' burn therapy.
>
> H.Mcmurray
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Andy Beck <wheep@igrin.co.nz>
> Sent: Oct 30, 2003 5:56 PM
> To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: FW: tail docking
> > - I assume this would be a judgement call best made by a Vet on a
case
> by
> > case basis. The issue was tail docking, which I firmly believe to be
> > ethically wrong - so why not keep it there rather than going off at
a
> > tangent?
>
> I agree, but legislation which prohibits any "removal of body parts"
> obviously
> applies to "dew claws" too.  I'm not sure the ethical issues are
really
> so
> very
> different.  In both cases we are dealing with removal of a normally
> functional
> body part, which under certain circumstances, but not under others,
may
> be
> liable to significant painful injury if not removed.  I don't wish to
> appear
> dense, but where's the difference?
>
> Many veterinarians are not, I'm afraid, sufficiently familiar with the
> realities
> of working dogs to have a valid opinion on such matters.  At least in
> this
> country, the overwhelming majority of patients in the average practice
> are
> obese
> family pets whose greatest athletic achievement is jumping on or off
the
> sofa.
> Those of us with high performance working dogs often travel hundreds
of
> miles to
> find a veterinarian truly knowledgeable about their needs.
>
> In the sighthounds with which I am most familiar I am opposed to the
> removal
> of
> "dew claws" (front first digits) because they are functionally useful
> and
> because I disapprove of *any* unnecessary surgery, ablation or what
> haveJohn
> -- 
> Dr. John Burchard
> Tepe Gawra Salukis
> http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
> saluqi@ix.netcom.com
>
> ********************************DISCLAIMER****************************
> The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages
> (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally
> privileged.  It is intended only for the use of the person or entity
> to which it is addressed.  If you are not the addressee any form of
> disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken
> or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised.  Opinions
> contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions
> of the Queensland Government and its authorities.  If you received
> this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and
> delete it from your computer system network.
>
>
>






From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 04:44:40.55
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Amputation

Moira, I check my Emails infrequently. Therefore there are sometimes
rather a lot of replies to make, or would you prefer to dissuade me from
being fully involved in a discussion I began? Perhaps it is a discussion
you would prefer did not occur. 
Most definitions of the word amputation suggest amputation of a limb as
the prime example of the word. An amputee is a person how has had a limb
removed. Various husbandry practices already bear perfectly precise
words. What reason is there to introduce other words, other than to try
to smuggle in other connotations. Those connotations should be
introduced rationally through the front door during open and rational
discussion of the issue. 
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Moira Harris [mailto:Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk] 
Sent: Thursday, November 06, 2003 8:11 PM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: Amputation

Dear Jackie and all,

I disagree that the word 'amputation' generally only refers to removal 
of a limb, and that it always carries negative connotations.  
Amputation can and does occur accidentally, for example as a result of 
a car accident.  If I trapped my hand in a door I might (ouch!) 
accidentally amputate a finger.  Have you read John Irving's "A Prayer 
for Owen Meany", in which a young man, assisted by his friend, 
amputates one of his fingers using a circular saw in order to avoid 
miltary service?  Strange, yes, but not really negative.  Yesterday my 
nine-year-old came home from school having learned about Vincent van 
Gogh who, as a consequence of his altered state of mind, amputated his 
own ear.... the left one, I believe.  Also strange, but ....

I would go and look up 'amputation' in the dictionary, but I do think 
that throwing around definitions can lead us up the path to unhelpful 
pedantry.  Plus I can't find my dictionary. 

Best wishes,
- Moira

(p.s. Jackie, I do think that posting 9 messages to applied-ethology in 
succession smacks of 'ranting', and I suspect this kind of practice 
might be one reason why some people are becoming disenchanted with the 
list)
(p.p.s. I am politically correct and proud of it.  Rather than 'straw-
man', could you please say 'straw-person' in future?  Thanks.)


Quoting Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au>:

> The word AMPUTATION carries a lot of negative baggage. To use it
> when
> referring to tail docking is to "load the dice" and try to emotively
> sway opinions. The practice was not previously described as
> amputation,
> so why try to redefine it now? Answer: to gain a rhetorical device. 
> It certainly only means removal of a limb to your every day person
> who
> naturally anthropomorphizes, applying the word first to the human
> form. 
> When attempting to have an ethical discussion progress can only be
> hindered by trying to smuggle in negative connotations. It is a
> sneaky
> way of trying to morally blacken the practice before the practice
> has
> been duly considered. 
> Jackie Perkins
> Veterinary Behaviour Consultant
> Australia 
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Francis Burton [mailto:F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk] 
> Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 10:19 PM
> To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: Re: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by
> philosphy depts; probably still is!
> 
> At 09:15 30/10/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
> >AMPUTATION: Humans understand this word on its own to mean the
> removal
> >of an arm or leg.
> 
> Or projecting body part - according to my understanding of the word.
> According to my desk dictionary (Chambers, 1998), "amputate" has the
> wider meaning: "to cut off (e.g. a limb)".
> 
> >We naturally apply the word to ourselves and we do not
> >have tails (anthropomorphisation). The word does not apply to
> removal
> of
> >a tail, not in its original meaning.
> 
> Do you have a source for the original meaning? The word appears to
> be
> from the Latin amputare, from amb- around, and -putare to lop.
> 
> >To amputate an arm or a leg is
> >crippling. This happened a lot during wars etc. The word
> "amputation"
> >sends cold shivers down the spine. It has extreme negative
> crippling
> >connotations.
> 
> For me, it has a mainly clinical connotation.
> 
> >To apply this word to tail docking is an act of rhetoric
> >as opposed to logic.
> 
> Well, that depends!
> 
> >Rhetorical argument is a very weak political
> >argument form.
> 
> Agreed - we should all try to avoid lapsing into that mode.
> 
> >Do we use the word "amputation" when discussing the
> >removal of an ear or a cancer? No.
> 
> Removal of an ear is an amputation; removal of a cancer is
> probably not. The difference here is that an ear is a normal
> part of protruding anatomy.
> 
> (Think: Is "Bobbitting" amputation?)
> 
> >Then why use it when referring to
> >tail docking? 
> 
> Because that is what it is?
> 
> Francis
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 



-------------------------------------

Dr. Moira Harris

Animal Behaviour and Welfare Group
Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science 
University of Bristol
Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk

Ecology and Epidemiology Group
Dept. Biological Sciences
University of Warwick
Moira.Harris@warwick.ac.uk






From:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com"  9-NOV-2003 10:35:58.87
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	Ethics, Ethology, Phenomenology and Ethnography

Thanks for responding to my challenging observations, John...


> > BUT 20th century "objective" relative positivism is only one of many
>> forms of "knowing" (science)].

> Um, yes, certainly ... one with the convenient attribute of verifiability
<G>.


I have to say that for many years "20th century Science" was a system of
religious belief for me also - a haven of verifiable and pure "truth" in a
world full of chaotic beliefs, conflicting opinions, contradictory
experiences and self-serving "spin" (manipulative  presentation of data).

The turning point came when, in the course of my Ph.D. training, I attempted
a literature review  on the effects of housing systems on breeding
performance of sows. The literature was a complete nonsense, regardless of
the august quality of the journals or the thoroughness of  the peer-review
process. There were so many contradictory findings that the literature
bordered on farce,  and I ended up even more confused than when I started,
despite the best efforts of the peer-reviewing process.

My Ph.D. supervisor had warned me sternly against going down this road
anyway. He put great pressure on me to stay away from "real world" applied
research and concentrate on the "pure science" of laboratory-based
experimentation. He had worked in both areas and found that laboratory
research was "much more meaningful".

In the best tradition of Ph.D. students I rejected his experienced guidance
fairly firmly except for some token efforts just to make sure that I did
get that graduation certificate at the end of my 3 years of hard labour and
penury!

Basically, I rejected his guidance because I had previously worked in
veterinary practice and was committed to
making some practical contribution to the everyday quality of life for
people and farm animals. I did want some fame and glory and a place in dusty
journal archives for myself, but on it's own this ego-trip would have been
an empty experience.

Some years later my supervisor was on the interviewing panel  when I applied
for an
academic post and he very pointedly asked what I would do if I had a PhD
student who refused to listen to my hard-earned wise advice and "insisted on
going his own way".  Bastard!

Actually of course it is an excellent question to test the authenticity of
putative PhD supervisors. The history of science is littered with attempts
by the scientific establishment to preserve secure scientific dogma and
suppress "upstarts" who come along with new ideas or fresh approaches. Even
today science degree courses are often more preoccupied with the game of
"knowing and doing things RIGHT - including controlled experiments to test
"rightness" rather the ancillary game of being open-minded, free-thinking
and content to observe, experience, record  and test the experience in a
subjective way ("natural history" versus "science").

I have been very impressed recently to see the growing development and
acceptance in human healthcare research (more of those  messy "real world"
situations with far too many uncontrollable variables and far too much human
subjectivity!) of scientific approaches which, rather amazingly, are able to
blend and balance the very desirable rigour of "20th century science with a
reflective, self-aware style of humanism or natural history, whatever you
want to call it.

Human healthcare research is seeing an upsurge in papers based on the
sciences of Phenomenology and
Ethnography. Not actually "new" sciences really, but more disciplined
approaches to quite old sciences. Is anyone out there using Phenomenological
or Ethnographic approaches  to the study of ethology or animal welfare?

Here are some interesting papers on this topic...

>>>>>>>>>
"Assessing quality in qualitative research" (first in a series of three
articles) by Nicholas Mays and  Catherine Pope
British Medical Journal (2000) 320:50-52.

"Demystifying neurology - Phenomenology can help"
Editorial by Matthew Menken
British Medical Journal (2002) 324: 1469 - 1470.
>>>>>>>>>

You can access these papers on the BMJ website http://bmj.com although at
present you must negotiate a simple questionnaire (no need to give your
address details) to get free access to the website.


My PhD supervisor, the late Prof. Jim Hancock of the Royal Veterinary
College, London,  was actually one of the greatest scientists I have ever
met, and his scientific dedication was total. He contributed some
fundamental research on the fertility of sows (conducting surgical
operations on almost 1,000 sows to do it!)  which probably contributed in a
minor way to the progress of artificial insemination, the understanding of
genetic defects in embryos and in-vitro fertilisation. He also researched
fetal loss in goat-sheep hybrids, which probably contributed in a small way
to the understanding of the role of immune rejection in fetal loss. Massive
financial resources, a phenomenal amount of experimental surgery and a
hundred or so scientific papers went into his researches, but, despite the
enormously high quality of their science and the "elegance" of their
ideology, their impact on the quality of life of people or animals has, in
my view, been pretty negligible, or even at worst, non-existent.

The huge contribution that he did make to the world was both pretty
unscientific, and also done with very meagre resources - an inspiration to
us all!

 During the second world war, Britain faced a huge food supply crisis and
there was an urgent need to improve home food production. Jim Hancock
developed the art and science of manual palpation of the reproductive organs
of cattle, facilitating pregnancy diagnosis and the diagnosis and treatment
of reproductive diseases. His techniques have been used all over the world
and are still widely in use today.

He contributed greatly to the welfare of cattle by making calving more
certain and predictable, thus facilitating better parturient care. He also
opened the door to reducing culling and getting more speedy and accurate
treatment for reproductive disorders. All over the world the cost of milk
and beef production is still being reduced using the techniques that he
developed and inspired. Even in developed countries, where ultrasound
scanning has become the norm, it still works best when combined with manual
palpation skills.

It is ironic that Jim disparaged his own "unscientific" work, which has
contributed so greatly to the world, and loved his "more precise and pure"
experimental work, which many people nowadays might raise ethical and
resource-optimisation questions about. Much of his beloved "pure science"
research projects would probably never have got passed the "Ethics
committees" which are springing up in our scientific and medical research
institutions.

Another truly great scientist I have been privileged to know, was the late
Professor E. C. Amoroso, who became famous for his work on comparative
placentation and "the evolution of viviparity". He horrified me one day,
when I was a young BSc student -  seriously dedicated  to the cult of
science - by pronouncing to us...

 "SCIENCE IS MERELY HUMAN ERRORS BROUGHT UP TO DATE!"

I was profoundly shocked at this statement.
How could a world-famous, dedicated scientist ever entertain such a
sacrilegious idea?
Only after some years of doing my own research and looking deeper into the
research of others, did I finally understand, many years later, what he was
driving at....

Scientific truth lies in "the perfect piece of research" - the investigation
that we are always hoping to do, or to find, the research that will come up
with incontrovertible universal truth that will stand for all time. The one
set of conclusions that will really "hold water".

Mostly, however, we find that the pure water of factual truth trickles away
through the fingers of
our eagerly-cupped hand with the words "More research is needed".

...Which is excellent news for those who derive pleasure and income from
this pastime!

If anyone would like some more  "challenging-but-hopefully-nourishing"  food
for thought, see..

"Research Questioned and Investigated":
http://www.aasv.org/news/story.php?id=384


With apologies if I have disturbed anyone's peace of mind!

Mike
www.sunflower-health.com



From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 14:21:25.62
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	FW: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food

I was speaking generally Andy, not to you directly. What do you (ie
everyone) think of dugongs (a protected species) being routinely clubbed
to death for traditional food? It is perfectly legal here in Australia.
Clearly, humaneness is not a consideration of this law, just a high
degree of tolerance for traditional culture.=20
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:05 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: research??

The word used was studies - nor did I "post any references for rubbish
"research"!" (in fact I did not post any references at all) But being
well
aware of your entirely unpleasant and sharp-tongued lack of manners will
leave you to rave on alone.

I would think the comment referring to Aborigines is well out of place -
perhaps it might be appropriate to an all Australian audience but even
then
it sounds like sour grapes - I am used to rednecks making the same kinds
of
comment in NZ with regard to Maori - do we have a little problem with
racism
perhaps - as well as a penchant for crying politics - or is this just
general undirected venom at a wicked world? What is your problem?

Spare me any further vitriol;
placing you back in the auto delete bin ;)

Regards
Andy Beck
White Horse Equine Ethology Project
433 Wharepunga Rd
RD3 Kaikohe
Northland
Aotearoa - New Zealand
http://www.equine-behavior.com
http://www.equine-social-behavior.org
http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]=20
Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2003 1:15 p.m.
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: research??

What "sufficient research"? Do you mean the "research" citing lots of
unpublished data? OR the patently rhetorical research? One thing is
certain; there has been no good quality or comprehensive research done
on the issue of tail docking and more certainly none done by
sociologists or the humanities. Those against tail docking are too
confident of their position to need anything like research nor to
involve humanities experts.
Ps Please do not post any references for rubbish "research"!=20
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz]=20
Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:05 AM
To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: dew claws

Mary

I am surprised you think I do not understand =96 was there anything so
complex
that that would be likely?

Dew claws is a separate issue =96 and I think there is no ethical =
question
as
they are liable to tearing =96 which results in pain  - therefore =
removing
them in a controlled manner under anaesthesia, even though it may cause
some
pain post-op, to prevent the much worse pain of a tear is quite ethical.
This is quite different to tail docking. Even so, it would clearly be
better
to breed so that this becomes unnecessary.

Sufficient studies have been carried out on tail docking =96 as you must
surely now be aware. Therefore there is no quick judgement going on
here. My
response was based entirely on awareness of these findings =96 not on
emotion.


My dogs assist me with all farm work =96 removing feral cattle and, on
occasion, pigs (fence and pasture damage), rounding up and removing
neighbours sheep (except when with lambs at foot as the dogs tend to be
a
little hard and inexperienced for such gentle work), moving groups of
horses
and protecting our plants and fruit trees from possums - quite varied
work,
and a great deal of it out of line of sight or direct control.

Please =96 no further FLAMES =96 the practice is somewhat out of place =
on
this
list and, in my case, merely makes me bin the posting as juvenile.

Regards
Andy Beck
White Horse Equine Ethology Project
433 Wharepunga Rd
RD3 Kaikohe
Northland
Aotearoa - New Zealand
http://www.equine-behavior.com
http://www.equine-social-behavior.org
http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz
=A0
-----Original Message-----
From: mary doran [mailto:mary@fusiondesignuk.com]=20
Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2003 5:36 p.m.
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: dew claws

You misunderstand me Andy.
I did not at any point say that ANY practise should be continued.
Perhaps a less emotional response with clearer reading of my exact words
would have allowed you to see that I relayed factual accounts of my own
experience ,and that my main point was this..
=A0
<"We should not be TOO quick to judge practices of animal husbandry if
we
have
not researched properly the original reasons why these practices
developed
centuries ago, or if we ourselves have not experienced problems
encountered
through these procedures not being carried out at birth.">
=A0
So allow me to explain=A0 further what I am implying here if you did not
understand what i meant.
I beleive that before taking such a step as to ban a particular
practise=A0
scientific research should=A0be carried out to see IF any of these
practises
are justified.
By 'not researched properly'=A0 what I mean is controlled long term
studies
following both groups of collies that are' de-clawed' a birth and also
those
remaining intact.
The fact that=A0I relayed my own personal experience to be shortly
followed by
you with your OWN anecdotal experience verifys my point that without
studies
and facts it will be impossible to assert what is best for the breed in
a
non-emotional way.
=A0
I am very interested to know where you work you collies with sheep.
Do you take part at trial standard? Or farm work only?
IF farm work, what size flocks and type=A0of land do you work.
I attend alot of trials here in the UK with border collies, and I am
also
studying to be an animal behaviour therapist based on an ethological
approach combined with operant conditoining methods.=A0
=A0I have started a survey among the regular competitors of the sport =
and
although it is not yet completed I have to say=A0that so far
the trend among most ISDS registered working border collie breeders
appears
to be that removal of front dew claws is the preferred approach.
The difference between you an I, it appears is that you carried out a
practise of docking without questioning its validity and then stopped
whereas I chose NOT to have invasive removal at birth only to discover
there
was a possibility of a real problem developing as a result.
I do not see why you are talking about emotional knee jerks as you seem
to
be having on while accusing me of doing so.
=A0
SO I suggested critical analysis BEFORE banning a practise as this seems
a
bit backwards to me.
Naturally, if the study showed that removal of front dew claws was
uneccessary and unrelated to following 'accidental' ripping of dew claws
then I would be very happy that it was discontinued.
I am wanting the best for the breed.
Not sure exactly what your point is.
=A0
Let me know what exactly=A0it is that you disagree with.
=A0
Sincerely
=A0
Mary Doran
=A0
He who does not know and 'asks' is a fool for five minutes.
He who does not know and does NOT ask....is a fool forever.








From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger"  9-NOV-2003 14:44:21.87
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician.

I too have worked formerly as a human mental health professional for
some 16 years, and very successfully. I rarely tell anyone straight out
that they are wrong. There is however one thing that I routinely view as
wrong and that is narrow mindedness. I deeply respect the rights and
views of others and expect some reciprocal respect. More people need to
develop that respect. It would be a better and more tolerant society.
Ethics is a whole subject area. It can not be trivialized away by
stating that it is just about doing the right thing, more especially
when doing the right thing means something different to each person.
And behaviour can be changed; why else would we have mental health
professionals? The best way to change behaviour is through education and
research. This discussion list is promoting education. 
It can be uncomfortable to have one's beliefs challenged, but to grow we
need to work through such discomfort and dig deep asking ourselves to
rationally justify why we believe what we do, and develop more tolerance
and respect for opposing views. Otherwise we will be self righteous
narrow minded Nazis. 
I have learned much from this discussion list. Eg I did not even realize
that horses ever had their tails docked. I thought it was just the hair.

Please keep the information and discussion coming, even if I do not
always like the content.
Jackie Perkins
-----Original Message-----
From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] 
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 9:15 PM
To: Geiger
Subject: RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does
NOT make one a mathematician.

Jackie,
  That is so lame and so wrong.  I am responsible for
my behavior.  I am not responsible for the behavior of
anyone else.  I have worked in the mental health field
 for about seventeen years.  One thing that I have
learned is that I can't change anyone elses behavior. 
I can only change the way that I deal with that
behavior.
  I consider your behavior on this list with it's
innuendos as inappropriate and it will from now on be
dealt with, with the delete button.
CeAnn
--- Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
> Apparently Ceann and Ray think that their personal
> version of "the right
> thing" should be foisted upon everyone else!!!!
> Isn't that what the
> Nazi's reasoning was?
> Jackie Perkins
> 
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] 
> Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 5:14 AM
> To: Ray Stricklin; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied
> ethics; arithmetic does
> NOT make one a mathematician.
> 
> 
> --- Ray Stricklin <wrstrick@umd.edu> wrote:
> > Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all
> > about "doing the right
> > thing."
> > 
> .Dr. Stricklin,
>   How refreshing to see that phrase.  Most decisions
> we have to make really can be made simple by
> thinking
> of that phrase before making the decision.
> CeAnn
> 
> =====
> CeAnn Lambert
> Indiana Coyote Rescue Center
> www.WolfPark.org/ICRC
> 
> __________________________________
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
> http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree
> 
> 
> 


=====
CeAnn Lambert
Indiana Coyote Rescue Center
www.WolfPark.org/ICRC

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard
http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree




From:	IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net"  "h.m."  9-NOV-2003 15:04:36.67
To:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "'Geiger'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Neuter-spay

Dear, Jackie,
Tell that to a friend's rabbit who bled out to death recently at 3 yrs
of age because she had not been spayed.  That pet died.  Spayed, she
might have lived with her bond-mate for another nine years in happiness.
Another did live, because the vet spayed her and removed bleeding cysts.

Tell that to my dad who had prostate cancer; or my mom who had breast
cancer. How about my neighbor who had a hysterectomy?  You place an
extreme high value on 'desexing' vs quality of life, in my humble
opinion. 

If I have a dog and it has puppies, what happens to those puppies if I
don't have the space and monies to care for them?  When I was born there
were 3 Billion people on planet earth and Ohio was filled with 300 acre
farms.  Now there are 6 Billion people on earth and all the farms I knew
are subdivided into 1.5 - 5 acre housing plots at 20,000 - 30,000$ a
piece -- just for the empty land.  A 900 acre farm went for over a
million dollars recently.  We place a very high value in this world on
the right to procreate.  Some predictions are that in 47 years there
will be 12 Billion people on earth; and the U.N. FAO feels (they ran an
expensive 1 year world-wide marketing survey) that we should factory
farm rabbits to feed them all.

This is not to say that neuter/spay for animals doesn't change many
things; but, you have to realize that half the population of human-women
are probably in menopause (age 40 or above) or have a complete
hysterectomy and your argument would consider them desexed.  I challenge
you to find one and ask them if they are...

Heather

-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] 
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 3:23 AM
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: rituals are not just about appearances
[text cut]That desexing is
performed merely for human convenience is more damning in my view. 
Jackie Perkins





From:	IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt"  "Anna Olsson"  9-NOV-2003 15:32:22.43
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	food-taster strategy and rodents

.  It is also reported that if you give a bonded-pair a novel food that some males will eat it first, and the female waits (this is called by pet owners a food-taster strategy, much like dignitaries having someone taste their foods for poison <grin>).  None of these strategies appear in all rabbits/all pairs, just now and then. 

The human behaviour seems something of a perversion of the rodents' very well developed capacity to use information about what a group member has eaten and how this has affected him, sometimes referred to as the poisoned-partner effect. And let me take this opportunity to advertise an excellent film where you can learn more about this and other fascinating aspects of rodent behaviour, that humans have not been able to take out of the animals despite generations of breeding in the laboratory. The film was made by the Oxford zoologist Manuel Berdoy and is available at www.ratlife.org. Highly recommendable, enjoyable and enlightening, for everyone who is interested in applied ethology. 

Anna Olsson

From:	IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net"  "h.m."  9-NOV-2003 15:35:23.66
To:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "'Geiger'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	formal ethics cont.

Jackie,
No, Nazi reasoning was that you did not have a conscience - you simply
followed the party's message.  You did not have to think for yourself.
At least that is my interpretation.

CeAnn and Dr. Stricklin were (pardon me for speaking for you both) I
believe saying that each person should think for themselves about what
they feel is  right. Scientists are educated so that they place a very
high value on thinking for themselves.  This discussion could fill many
books -- and that view is not the total answer -- but I don't think that
your interpretation is fair, Jackie.

I get the impression that you feel strongly about some animal issues and
want other people to agree with you.  Be careful not to foist your
attitude in turn.  People were not meant to be all the same. Allow
people to make their own choices. 

May I ask what your training/background is in?  Your responses sound
very much like someone I know trained in analytic philosophy.

Heather

-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] 
Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 3:26 AM
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does
NOT make one a mathematician.

Apparently Ceann and Ray think that their personal version of "the right
thing" should be foisted upon everyone else!!!! Isn't that what the
Nazi's reasoning was?
Jackie Perkins




From:	IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk"  "Francis Burton"  9-NOV-2003 15:56:20.74
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician.

At 06:43 10/11/03 +1000, Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au> wrote:
>[...]
>I have learned much from this discussion list. Eg I did not even realize
>that horses ever had their tails docked. I thought it was just the hair.

I saw reference to the following on the Thinking Horsemanship Forum.
(Thanks, Catherine, for drawing my attention to this.)

http://www.thehorse.com/viewarticle.asp?fid=4738&dpt=5&textfield=docking

=======

AAEP Approves New Tail Docking Position Statement by: The Horse
Staff 10/31/03
 
The American Association of Equine Practitioners (AAEP) board of
directors recently approved a new position statement regarding the
tail docking of horses. The statement was written by the Equine
Welfare Committee and reads as follows:

Position on Tail Docking in Horses

Tail docking in horses should only be performed when it is a medical
necessity or when it is vital to ensuring the horse's safety in a
work environment. Tail docking should not be performed for cosmetic
reasons. To protect the health and welfare of the horse, tail
docking should be performed by a licensed veterinarian to ensure
adequate pain management, sterile technique and appropriate
aftercare. Tail docking should always be done in compliance with
individual state laws.

The AAEP's list of ethics and professional guidelines can be found
in the AAEP membership directory each year, or viewed on the AAEP
web site at http://www.aaep.org/ethics_prof_guide.php.

=======

I would like to know why, in this day and age, a horse's safety might
be compromised by having an un-docked tail, and would naturally ask if
alternative (non-surgical) remedies are considered and what arguments
are put forward for rejection of these alternatives.

For some references to docking:
http://www.infography.com/content/138692125742.html
(Please be warned that the word 'amputation' is used here.)

I'm not 100% sure whether docking of a horse's tail is illegal in the
UK, but according to 
http://www.hmso.gov.uk/legislation/northernireland/nisr/yeargroups/1970-1979/1972/1972anip/c7_000.htm
this appears to be the case in Northern Ireland at least, subject to
the obvious sensible exclusion:

"Where any veterinary surgeon, after examining a horse certifies in
writing that in his opinion the docking or nicking of the horse is
necessary for the health of the horse because of disease or injury
to the tail, the operation may be performed."

Francis


From:	IN%"kc@synalia.com"  9-NOV-2003 16:13:01.65
To:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com"
CC:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
Subj:	RE: Ethics, Ethology, Phenomenology and Ethnography

Very thought provoking and enlightening.  Permission to cross post, Mike
and John?

Best,
Kayce

> Thanks for responding to my challenging observations, John...
>
>
>> > BUT 20th century "objective" relative positivism is only one of many
>>> forms of "knowing" (science)].
>
>> Um, yes, certainly ... one with the convenient attribute of
>> verifiability
> <G>.
>
>
> I have to say that for many years "20th century Science" was a system
> of religious belief for me also - a haven of verifiable and pure
> "truth" in a world full of chaotic beliefs, conflicting opinions,
> contradictory experiences and self-serving "spin" (manipulative
> presentation of data).
>
> The turning point came when, in the course of my Ph.D. training, I
> attempted a literature review  on the effects of housing systems on
> breeding performance of sows. The literature was a complete nonsense,
> regardless of the august quality of the journals or the thoroughness of
>  the peer-review process. There were so many contradictory findings
> that the literature bordered on farce,  and I ended up even more
> confused than when I started, despite the best efforts of the
> peer-reviewing process.
>
> My Ph.D. supervisor had warned me sternly against going down this road
> anyway. He put great pressure on me to stay away from "real world"
> applied research and concentrate on the "pure science" of
> laboratory-based experimentation. He had worked in both areas and found
> that laboratory research was "much more meaningful".
>
> In the best tradition of Ph.D. students I rejected his experienced
> guidance fairly firmly except for some token efforts just to make sure
> that I did get that graduation certificate at the end of my 3 years of
> hard labour and penury!
>
> Basically, I rejected his guidance because I had previously worked in
> veterinary practice and was committed to
> making some practical contribution to the everyday quality of life for
> people and farm animals. I did want some fame and glory and a place in
> dusty journal archives for myself, but on it's own this ego-trip would
> have been an empty experience.
>
> Some years later my supervisor was on the interviewing panel  when I
> applied for an
> academic post and he very pointedly asked what I would do if I had a
> PhD student who refused to listen to my hard-earned wise advice and
> "insisted on going his own way".  Bastard!
>
> Actually of course it is an excellent question to test the authenticity
> of putative PhD supervisors. The history of science is littered with
> attempts by the scientific establishment to preserve secure scientific
> dogma and suppress "upstarts" who come along with new ideas or fresh
> approaches. Even today science degree courses are often more
> preoccupied with the game of "knowing and doing things RIGHT -
> including controlled experiments to test "rightness" rather the
> ancillary game of being open-minded, free-thinking and content to
> observe, experience, record  and test the experience in a subjective
> way ("natural history" versus "science").
>
> I have been very impressed recently to see the growing development and
> acceptance in human healthcare research (more of those  messy "real
> world" situations with far too many uncontrollable variables and far
> too much human subjectivity!) of scientific approaches which, rather
> amazingly, are able to blend and balance the very desirable rigour of
> "20th century science with a reflective, self-aware style of humanism
> or natural history, whatever you want to call it.
>
> Human healthcare research is seeing an upsurge in papers based on the
> sciences of Phenomenology and
> Ethnography. Not actually "new" sciences really, but more disciplined
> approaches to quite old sciences. Is anyone out there using
> Phenomenological or Ethnographic approaches  to the study of ethology
> or animal welfare?
>
> Here are some interesting papers on this topic...
>
>>>>>>>>>>
> "Assessing quality in qualitative research" (first in a series of three
> articles) by Nicholas Mays and  Catherine Pope
> British Medical Journal (2000) 320:50-52.
>
> "Demystifying neurology - Phenomenology can help"
> Editorial by Matthew Menken
> British Medical Journal (2002) 324: 1469 - 1470.
>>>>>>>>>>
>
> You can access these papers on the BMJ website http://bmj.com although
> at present you must negotiate a simple questionnaire (no need to give
> your address details) to get free access to the website.
>
>
> My PhD supervisor, the late Prof. Jim Hancock of the Royal Veterinary
> College, London,  was actually one of the greatest scientists I have
> ever met, and his scientific dedication was total. He contributed some
> fundamental research on the fertility of sows (conducting surgical
> operations on almost 1,000 sows to do it!)  which probably contributed
> in a minor way to the progress of artificial insemination, the
> understanding of genetic defects in embryos and in-vitro fertilisation.
> He also researched fetal loss in goat-sheep hybrids, which probably
> contributed in a small way to the understanding of the role of immune
> rejection in fetal loss. Massive financial resources, a phenomenal
> amount of experimental surgery and a hundred or so scientific papers
> went into his researches, but, despite the enormously high quality of
> their science and the "elegance" of their ideology, their impact on the
> quality of life of people or animals has, in my view, been pretty
> negligible, or even at worst, non-existent.
>
> The huge contribution that he did make to the world was both pretty
> unscientific, and also done with very meagre resources - an inspiration
> to us all!
>
> During the second world war, Britain faced a huge food supply crisis
> and
> there was an urgent need to improve home food production. Jim Hancock
> developed the art and science of manual palpation of the reproductive
> organs of cattle, facilitating pregnancy diagnosis and the diagnosis
> and treatment of reproductive diseases. His techniques have been used
> all over the world and are still widely in use today.
>
> He contributed greatly to the welfare of cattle by making calving more
> certain and predictable, thus facilitating better parturient care. He
> also opened the door to reducing culling and getting more speedy and
> accurate treatment for reproductive disorders. All over the world the
> cost of milk and beef production is still being reduced using the
> techniques that he developed and inspired. Even in developed countries,
> where ultrasound scanning has become the norm, it still works best when
> combined with manual palpation skills.
>
> It is ironic that Jim disparaged his own "unscientific" work, which has
> contributed so greatly to the world, and loved his "more precise and
> pure" experimental work, which many people nowadays might raise ethical
> and resource-optimisation questions about. Much of his beloved "pure
> science" research projects would probably never have got passed the
> "Ethics committees" which are springing up in our scientific and
> medical research institutions.
>
> Another truly great scientist I have been privileged to know, was the
> late Professor E. C. Amoroso, who became famous for his work on
> comparative placentation and "the evolution of viviparity". He
> horrified me one day, when I was a young BSc student -  seriously
> dedicated  to the cult of science - by pronouncing to us...
>
> "SCIENCE IS MERELY HUMAN ERRORS BROUGHT UP TO DATE!"
>
> I was profoundly shocked at this statement.
> How could a world-famous, dedicated scientist ever entertain such a
> sacrilegious idea?
> Only after some years of doing my own research and looking deeper into
> the research of others, did I finally understand, many years later,
> what he was driving at....
>
> Scientific truth lies in "the perfect piece of research" - the
> investigation that we are always hoping to do, or to find, the research
> that will come up with incontrovertible universal truth that will stand
> for all time. The one set of conclusions that will really "hold water".
>
> Mostly, however, we find that the pure water of factual truth trickles
> away through the fingers of
> our eagerly-cupped hand with the words "More research is needed".
>
> ...Which is excellent news for those who derive pleasure and income
> from this pastime!
>
> If anyone would like some more  "challenging-but-hopefully-nourishing"
> food for thought, see..
>
> "Research Questioned and Investigated":
> http://www.aasv.org/news/story.php?id=384
>
>
> With apologies if I have disturbed anyone's peace of mind!
>
> Mike
> www.sunflower-health.com


Kayce Cover
Syn Alia Training Systems
http://www.synalia.com



From:	IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk"  "R. Rodd" 10-NOV-2003 03:58:29.07
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician.

On Sun, 9 Nov 2003, Francis Burton wrote:

> 
> I'm not 100% sure whether docking of a horse's tail is illegal in the
> UK, but according to 
> http://www.hmso.gov.uk/legislation/northernireland/nisr/yeargroups/1970-1979/1972/1972anip/c7_000.htm
> this appears to be the case in Northern Ireland at least, subject to
> the obvious sensible exclusion:
> 
It is - "Docking and Nicking of Horses Act, 1949". 
I can remember as a child (c. 1963) having a docked pony pointed out to
me as a curiosity on the grounds that he  must be incredibly
old, so I would guess that docking must have become "unfashionable" well
before the act was passed. 

----------------------------------------
Rosemary Rodd <rr25@cam.ac.uk> 
Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre
Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA          01223 335029


From:	IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk"  "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 10-NOV-2003 04:01:08.95
To:	IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Do animals lead their targets?

Dear All,
Field and laboratory studies have both shown that
animals can show detour behaviour, in which the animal
chooses to take an indirect route to a goal, rather
than the most direct route.  This is pertinent because
it indicates flexibility in behaviour, route planning,
and possibly insight learning. Jackson and Wilcox
(1993) reported that predators in the wild scanned the
environment surrounding the web of potential prey
before moving to capture the prey, sometimes choosing
an indirect route on four occasions during a single
attack. Controlled studies on detour behaviour have
been conducted under laboratory conditions.  Predators
will successfully navigate an apparatus that requires
them initially to move away from a prey item before
reversing direction (Tarsitano & Jackson 1992, 1994;
Carducci & Jakob 2000).  Successful navigation was
dependent on the presence of a prey item in the goal
area, indicating the detour behaviour was not simply
aimless wanderings.  The predators would stop and scan
their environment prior to a detour being required,
much as if they were planning which route was the next
best - possibly indicating a capacity for insight
learning.  Oh...the predators in all these
enlightening studies were the humble spider!

Jackson R R and Wilcox R S 1993a Observations in
nature of detouring behaviour by Portia fimbriata, a
web-invading aggressive mimic jumping spider from
Queensland.  Journal of Zoology, London  230: 135-139
Tarsitano M S and Jackson R R 1992  Influence of prey
movement on the performance of simple detours by
jumping spiders.  Behaviour  123: 106-120
Tarsitano M S and Jackson R R 1994  Jumping spiders
make predatory detours requiring movement away from
prey.  Behaviour  131: 65-73
Carducci J P and Jakob E M 2000  Rearing environment
affects behaviour of jumping spiders.  Animal
Behaviour  59: 39-46
 






--- Michalchik@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated
11/8/2003 8:08:11 PM Pacific
> Standard Time, 
> oryctolagus@earthlink.net writes:
> Years ago I watched a young bald eagle fly out from
> a branch … out out out 
> and then sllloowwwwly ascend a thermal.  When he got
> high enough he suddenly put 
> on the speed straight for an osprey.   The osprey
> didn’t have a chance, 
> turned upside down and dropped the fish it carried. 
> The eagle got the fish.
>  
> The eagle didn’t fly directly toward the osprey in
> the beginning.  He knew 
> where he wanted to go and how to get there.
> Heather
>  
> Interesting, but how do we know that the eagle
> didn't see the opportunity 
> after it had ascended? I presume many birds will
> ascend and ride thermals as part 
> of their normal exploratory behavior.
>  

=====
.......................................................................................................
Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists
(Why spoil a good story with the facts?)

________________________________________________________________________
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From:	IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com"  "John Burchard" 10-NOV-2003 08:28:34.15
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology list"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: rituals are not just about appearances

Jackie Perkins wrote:

> To claim that tail docking is performed solely for the purpose of giving
> humans pleasure, is to completely miss the point about it being a
> ritual. Why do humans perform tattooing, circumcision, piercing etc etc.
> Rituals are enculturated after hundreds of years. That desexing is
> performed merely for human convenience is more damning in my view.

In some cases, perhaps most cases, the original reason for docking tails had
little to do with ritual, and had to do with human pleasure only in the rather
indirect sense that it enabled the dog to do its work (which humans valued) at
less risk of bloody damage to itself.

I think it could be argued quite seriously that a working dog is often, if not
usually, happier and more fulfilled than one which has nothing to do.  Animals
do not enjoy nor benefit from boredom, any more than humans do.  Boredom and
inactivity also have a significant impact on health.

In many (but not all) modern breeds, the functional aspect of tail docking has
become vestigial, and the docking has therefore taken on the aspect of a ritual,
often sanctified by a sacred document known as a breed standard.  Ignoring the
breed standard then becomes a form of heresy <G>.  Actually that is not funny,
as anyone can discover by standing up at a meeting of any breed club and
publicly criticizing the standard ...

John
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com



From:	IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com"  "John Burchard" 10-NOV-2003 08:28:45.43
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied ethology list"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Do animals lead their targets?

Michael Michalchik wrote:

> When a predator is running or flying to intercept a prey, does it always move directly towards the prey or does it anticipate that the prey will tend to move in the same direction due to momentum? If animals lead their targets, is this instinctive or learned behavior? 

Short answers from one who has spent many years observing the behavior of avian,
mammalian, reptilian, piscine and arthropod predators close up:

1.  Yes, many animals do lead their targets

2.  That behavior has both innate and learned components

Some more or less random examples:

A falcon diving at approximately 200 mph is able to strike a grouse or similar
bird, traveling across its field of view at 50-80 mph, with great accuracy. 
This would be impossible without a fairly sophisticated onboard computer which
not only provides an appropriate "lead" - continuously corrected for changes in
the angle between the two flight paths - but also provides instantaneous,
preprogrammed responses to various (likewise preprogrammed <G>) avoidance
maneuvers of the quarry.

A sighthound running at approximately 35 mph is able to snatch a hare, moving at
nearly the same speed, in a diving, somersaulting "take" maneuver in which the
hound, fully airborne during the dive, is unable to make midflight corrections
and so must accurately predict the anticipated position of the quarry at the
moment of contact.  Of course such dives often miss, because of last-minute
evasions by the hare, but they connect a surprisingly high percentage of the
time.

That avian predators lead their targets can be deduced from the existence of
stereotyped escape behaviors in the prey species, behaviors adapted to confound
a predator's trajectory prediction system.  Such behaviors can readily be
observed in the aerial evolutions of any flock of pigeons, even in the absence
of a predator.  They consist of abrupt wing-over and sideslip maneuvers which
suddenly place the bird to one side, behind and below where it would have been
had it continued its unbroken flight.  These maneuvers are based on innate motor
patterns ("Erbkoordinationen") with a genetic basis: 1) they are performed by
young, recently fledged pigeons who have never seen a predator, and 2) they have
been the object of selection by pigeon fanciers, resulting in breeds known as
"tumblers" and "rollers" in which the maneuvers are shown in exaggerated form
and/or with exaggerated frequency, in the case of "parlor tumblers" to the point
of rendering the birds incapable of normal flight.  Similar evasive maneuvers
can readily be observed in wild ducks and geese, shore birds and many others. 
The remarkable collective maneuvers of flocks of starlings and American
blackbirds confound a predator's aim in a slightly different but equally
effective way, combining unpredictability of trajectory with presentation of a
shifting mass of bodies in which tracking of any individual target becomes
almost impossible.  Both types of evasive behavior show striking social
facilitation, with the adaptive result that even flock members who have not
themselves seen the approaching predator become more difficult targets.

At a more sophisticated level, a sighthound may become so familiar with the
behavior of hares that it can correctly predict the escape path a hare will
take, and take a shortcut to get there first.  Sometimes such "hedging" is in
the nature of guesswork, and in that case the hound will probably guess wrong a
fair percentage of the time.  Occasionally, however, you encounter a hound which
seems to have a real understanding of hare mentality.  Such a hound will hardly
ever make a mistake.

A great deal of the behavior of predators is directed toward predicting the
habits or actions of their prey, in such a way as to increase their success rate
and/or decrease the amount of energy they must expend to capture prey.  One
interesting aspect of that, readily observable in trained hawks because of the
intimate association between man and bird, is the way a predator constructs a
"working territory" out of the remembrance of particular events and the places
and times associated with them.  A hawk which has made a capture at one
particular time and place is likely on another day to revisit that place at that
time in the hope of repeating its success.  In the wild the prey animals of
course also notice this pattern, and are apt to change their habits or timing to
frustrate the predator's intentions.  At that point a wild hawk will move on to
another, probably also familiar location and try its luck there.  The result
after some time is a more or less regular "round" of visits to different hunting
grounds, a round which may take weeks to complete.

A trained hawk will also remember, for example, a particular tree branch from
which it launched a successful rabbit capture; and will remind you of that fact
by wanting to jump from your hand to the branch, when next you pass that way at
an appropriate time of day, even weeks or months later.

The ability of prey to predict the behavior of predators is nicely illustrated
by an anecdote.  For a time I flew a hawk at ducks on certain small ponds about
a quarter hour's drive from my laboratory.  At the end of the work day I would
drive there as fast as possible and have perhaps half an hour of good daylight
in which to get two or three flights at the ducks.  The ducks needed only a
very short time to figure out this pattern and responded by leaving the ponds en
masse, for the safety of larger bodies of water from which even a dog could not
flush them, a few minutes before my anticipated arrival on the scene with my
hawk.  Just like the wild raptor, I had to seek a new location for my efforts -
since changing my work schedule was not practicable <G>.

Prediction of events in the environment - such as the trajectory of fleeing prey
- is after all one of the principal functions of a nervous system.

John
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com


From:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin" 10-NOV-2003 12:09:00.92
To:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Ethics, Ethical behaviour and Ethical animal care

Gary Comstock of the Iowa State Bioethics programme has written a superbly
clear and well-structured chapter in the multi-author manual "Livestock,
Ethics and Quality of Life" in which he examines piece by piece the
confusion about what ethics is, then moves on to look at its modern role in
Animal Science.

Fascinatingly, he then goes on to trace the roots of Animal Science ethics
back to our hunter-gatherer ancestors and their tradition of ethics
communicated via myths and legends. From here he traces the evolution of
bioethics to the pastoral nomads and early farmers. The importance of ethics
in our relationships with animals and with each other is abundantly clear.
Understanding it's evolution may help us to approach it more
constructively - with a heightened sense of perspective, mutual respect and
recognition.

I would really recommend this book as helpful reading for anyone  interested
in progressing ethological understanding and the art of human/human and
human/animal co-creation.

For those who prefer mortal combat as the way to create a world that is
correct, safe or nice, then this book can still be useful - it's a very
handy size for bashing over the head those people who refuse to share your
narrow-minded, self-righteous vision.

---------------------------------------------

I would also recommend reading Comstock - even though I have not read the
above article which is part of the proceedings of the World Animal
Production meeting held in Korea and edited by John Hodges.  And while I do
not agree with all the positions of Comstock, I have much respect for his
work and have included him as an invited speaker in the past.

However, I speculate that some persons on this e-discussion group may have
misunderstood what Comstock's position is regarding ethics and tolerance of
different viewpoints.  While he does acknowledge that different situations
do result in different ethical standards, Comstock holds that eating meat
was acceptable in the past, but - he argues that it no longer can be
justified by people in developed countries.  In fact Comstock is no longer
at Iowa State but has moved to North Carolina State as Professor of Religion
and seems to be taking over some the previous responsibilities of Tom Regan.

Those who may have thought Comstock would defend their view that social
tolerance as the basis for continuing certain practices might be surprised
to find that he, like Regan, takes more of a rights-based view of animal
issues.  Indeed, while I have never heard him discuss practices such as
zoos, wild animal exhibits, etc., I would expect his position to be close to
that of Regan - but he grounds his work more in religion than does Regan.

Yes, Comstock does argue that we can reach a common ground upon which to
discuss ethics.  But I do not think that one would describe him as widely
tolerant, or open to the idea that ethics is a matter of accepting all
viewpoints.  He conducted a series a workshops on Bioethics and served only
vegetarian meals - he did not provide choice and strongly holds that he
should not have been expected to do so.  (In fact this issue was made into a
case study for courses in bioethics and can be found at:
http://www-phil.tamu.edu/~gary/awvar/cases.mealplan.pdf)

At one of these workshops, I was sitting at the table with him at lunch, and
the topic of having only vegetarian meals came up. I was asked my view.  I
basically said that I believed that food was about as personal a choice as
one could make and had no objection to persons choosing to be vegetarian,
and I said that I had no objection to eating the few vegetarian meals served
at the meeting.  However, I also said that I would object if it was held
that persons who choose to be vegetarian contend that they are morally
superior.  His comment was, "Of course we are."


W.R. Stricklin




From:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com" 10-NOV-2003 14:59:49.01
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Welfare of Food Animals -  Cost

Mike Appleby wrote...

>  In this case the questions were asked by
> the Animal Agricultural Alliance

I quoted their data, because it supports the experience of many people in
Europe and the USA, do you really think it would have been much different if
someone else had gathered it Mike?

> > Despite the relationship between cost and welfare on farms, it turns
> out, surprisingly, that major improvements in farm animal welfare could
> be achieved with only minor increases in the price paid for food by
> consumers.

Experience in the UK mitigates strongly against this view, Mike.

a) The capital costs data that you give leaves out the crucial matter of
extra labour costs.

b) The organic meat movement here is growing steadily, although still has
only a tiny share of the meat market place. Higher welfare is a key aspect
of its production systems. The meat sells at double to triple  the cost of
ordinary commercial meat.

c) As you know the UK Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
has pioneered in recent years a "welfare-friendly" brand of meat under the
name "Freedom Foods" (based on the ideal of giving animals the oft-quoted "5
freedoms"). Freedom Foods meat has now disappeared from my local
supermarket, in the wake of a TV-expose a year or so ago which revealed
that the 5-freedom claims were fraudulent on some of the RSPCA-certified
farms.
When the Freedom Foods meat and eggs were  available in my local supermarket
(and they pushed it very strongly, until it lost credibility) it cost around
50% more than ordinary meat and eggs - even though, allegedly, many of their
poultry farms at least, were taking short-cuts over welfare promises.

Many of us, over the years, in endeavouring to raise the standards of farm
animal welfare have repeatedly bashed our heads against this economic wall.
This is why I have gone down the road of exploring how we might reduce
labour costs on farms e.g. by recruiting farms to act in loco parentis for
delinquent youngsters.

The alternative route is to legislate, but until welfare is regarded as a
legitimate criterion in international trade, national legislation will just
suck in cheap low-welfare imports. The UK pig industry has more welfare
controls than any other significant pigmeat producer, but has lost one third
of production in the last 4 years because it cannot compete with cheap
imports. A significant aspect of this decline in the world's
highest-welfare, significant  pigmeat-producing nation is that it is mainly
the small family farms and mixed enterprise small holders that have gone out
of business. Unfortunately the highly industrialised agribusinesses are the
farms best suited to survive in a regulations-intensive, highly competitive,
market  situation.

When it comes to restaurant meals, especially the expensive ones that you
perhaps frequent Mike <cheeky grin>, meat and egg costs are indeed only a
small percentage of the bill, and the dynamics of bringing about more
high-welfare discrimination are quite different. Most people do not choose
their restaurant on the basis of the food source. Some (rare) restaurants do
make it a marketing feature, but presumably this is not "a winner", or more
restaurants would promote themselves in this way and not begrudge paying a
lot more for their meat and eggs.


I hope that these points are helpful, even though the realities are harsh.

Mike M
www.sunflower-health.com



From:	IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net"  "h.m." 10-NOV-2003 15:32:18.79
To:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Welfare of Food Animals -  Cost

Plans currently call for 20-acre self-contained rabbit production units
with robotized care, slaughter and processing.  The rabbits would be
raised there, slaughtered there and packaged/processed there -- with
very minimal human oversight.  Picture dogs in those long rows of tiered
rabbit cages, and you know how companion rabbit owners feel about such a
scene.  And, it is all because people insist on having more than two
children, and zero-population is an unpopular berated phrase.

-----Original Message-----
From: michael.meredith@btconnect.com
[mailto:michael.meredith@btconnect.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 1:57 PM
To: Ethology Posting
Subject: Re: Welfare of Food Animals - Cost
[text cut]

a) The capital costs data that you give leaves out the crucial matter of
extra labour costs.

b) The organic meat movement here is growing steadily, although still
has
only a tiny share of the meat market place. Higher welfare is a key
aspect
of its production systems. The meat sells at double to triple  the cost
of
ordinary commercial meat.







From:	IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk"  "R. Rodd" 11-NOV-2003 04:06:52.16
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Welfare of Food Animals -  Cost

On Mon, 10 Nov 2003 michael.meredith@btconnect.com wrote:

> 
> c) As you know the UK Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals
> has pioneered in recent years a "welfare-friendly" brand of meat under the
> name "Freedom Foods" (based on the ideal of giving animals the oft-quoted "5
> freedoms"). Freedom Foods meat has now disappeared from my local
> supermarket, in the wake of a TV-expose a year or so ago which revealed
> that the 5-freedom claims were fraudulent on some of the RSPCA-certified
> farms.
I think you need to be aware that freedom food was subjected to very
strong attack by organisations and individuals who believed that the RSPCA
should not sponsor welfare-friendly animal products (but should promote
vegetarianism instead). The TV-expose was based on films shot by members
of one of these groups and one of the pig farms involved was suffering
from the effects of foot and mouth movement restrictions at the time.
I am myself a vegetarian, but I believe that we cannot simply abandon
"food" animals because we want to keep ourselves pure.

 ----------------------------------------
Rosemary Rodd <rr25@cam.ac.uk> 
Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre
Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA          01223 335029


From:	IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk"  "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 11-NOV-2003 04:26:20.46
To:	IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net"  "h.m.", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Welfare of Food Animals -  Cost

 --- "h.m." <oryctolagus@earthlink.net> wrote: > Plans
currently call for 20-acre self-contained
> rabbit production units
> with robotized care, slaughter and processing.  The
> rabbits would be
> raised there, slaughtered there and
> packaged/processed there -- with
> very minimal human oversight.  Picture dogs in those
> long rows of tiered
> rabbit cages, and you know how companion rabbit
> owners feel about such a
> scene.  And, it is all because people insist on
> having more than two
> children, and zero-population is an unpopular
> berated phrase.



Heather,

Consider that millions of layer hens are confined to
cages that provide them with about as much space as
half the screen you are looking at for their entire 62
weeks of miserable life...unless of course they are
fortunate enough to be in a country which subjects
them to forced moulting by having food and water
withdrawn for several days or weeks, in which case
they get the opportunity for a repeat dose.  These are
not plans.  They exist now.  They are the existence of
the vast majority of birds from which we gain eggs.
  

=====
.......................................................................................................
Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists
(Why spoil a good story with the facts?)

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk

From:	IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt"  "Anna Olsson" 11-NOV-2003 07:38:57.98
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied ethology"
CC:	
Subj:	Animal Machines

Dear all,
Could anybody help me with a digitalized picture of the book Animal Machines by Ruth Harrison? I'd like to use such a picture in presentations but my second-hand copy of the book had lost its dust jacket when I bought it and the book itself has neither text nor picture on the cover.

Best wishes
Anna Olssson

Anna Olsson
Postdoctoral research fellow
Animal Behaviour & Welfare - Bioethics

Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology
Rua Campo Alegre 823
4150-180 Porto, Portugal
Phone +351 22 607 4900
Faz +351 22 609 9157

From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger" 11-NOV-2003 15:13:42.18
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician.

=======as a list member I do not have my email on every day to follow 
threads asa notes are posted.  So, will each correspondent Please indicate 
which part of these looong notes belongs to you?
        Jo


----Original Message Follows----
From: Geiger <gooddog@dodo.com.au>
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT 
make one a mathematician.
Is desexing "doing the right thing?" Doing the right thing is highly
subjective, and I am surprised that you would try to trivialize it.
Desexing is severely altering an animals physical mental and behavioural
capacities for the owners or societies mere convenience. Just because it
is not as visible as tail docking does not make it any less ethically
important. Would you rather be desexed, or have a body part removed?
Jackie Perkins

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 12:08 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does
NOT make one a mathematician.

Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all about "doing the right
thing."

Cutting off the tail of an animal solely for purposes of giving pleasure
to
humans is _not_ doing "the right thing" for animals.

This is not a "straw man argument."  Nor is the statement one that could
be
said to be "political."  The statement has to do with "doing the right
thing" for animals.  It is a straightforward statement about ethics.
And it
is not a statement that is to be discussed only by persons who claim
ethics
as their profession.  All ("normal," adult, etc.) humans have the
ability to
engage in moral reasoning.  Most every modern person who has seriously
studied, written and(or) thought about this ability has concluded that
we
humans, therefore, are burdened with the responsibility/obligation of
using
this ability.

Ethics is absolutely something that we must learn about through
interactions
with others - and I would very much argue that we are individually
obligated
to expand our knowledge about formal ethics.  But ultimately we are to
use
this ability to reason about everyday issues having to do ethics and
morality in order to bring about "doing the right thing" - even if doing
the
right thing conflicts with actions that would beneficially serve us
individually, financially, professionally, or otherwise (but taking such
a
position, I would argue, must be done within the bounds of lawful, and
in
some cases, even pragmatic, bounds).

I would suggest that anyone who believes that it is morally acceptable
to
(surgically, mechanically, etc.) alter the appearance of animals solely
for
the sake of attaining human pleasure should present the ethical basis
for
their beliefs.  And I certainly would believe that a good starting point
for
persons wishing to pursue this endeavor would be to work with a
professional
ethicist.  I would indeed like to see the argument put forth by a person
formally trained in ethics for such a position.

(And by the way, I am not a mathematician but I am the research advisor
to a
student who will receive his PhD degree in Applied Mathematics at the
end of
this semester.  While I am not a mathematician, I most certainly do not
hesitate to use the tools available from mathematics and to work in
collaboration with persons who claim mathematics as their profession.
And
the same is true for ethics.)

W.R. Stricklin


-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, November 05, 2003 10:55 PM
To: 'Ray Stricklin'; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Cc: Rachel Bowater
Subject: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT
make one a mathematician.


I suspect that philosophy depts are still the only place teaching formal
ethics. A sound basis in formal ethics would orientate the mind
correctly for contemplating specific issues. I have rarely seen applied
ethics by various depts even vaguely resemble formal ethics. Such
courses in applied ethics, without a formal basis, resemble political
arguments with moralistic overtones. What a parody of formal ethics!
Being capable of adding up does not qualify one to be a mathematician.
So too ethics is a subject area all its own and should be treated as
such. One needs specific learning to do it well! A BVSc or PhD does not
cut it. That is evident.
Those depts or individuals endeavouring to teach or publish applied
ethics should first acquire a basic education in ethics. Ethics is about
reasonableness, truth, equality, fairness, and most of all correctly
understanding various views at their strongest, not creating straw-man
arguments for the other side then proceeding to set them alight! Such
contempt for opposing views is rife in applied ethics and only furthers
ignorance. It is not till one understands their opponent's side so
thoroughly that they are seduced by it, that one is in a position to
fully criticize it. I have rarely seen such understanding displayed in
any of the so-called applied veterinary ethics arguments about tail
docking. They lack the mental tools obtainable from the study of formal
ethics. They appear to know so little about their subject that they are
unaware of their ignorance.
Jackie Perkins
Veterinary Behaviour Consultant
Australia

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu]
Sent: Friday, October 31, 2003 12:04 AM
To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by
philosphy depts; probably still is!

A question raised below asks, "Where other than philosophy departments
is
ethics taught today?"  The answer is, "There are attempts to introduce
ethics in essentially every department of an up-to-date university!"

Check out of some of the hits from GOOGLE with the key words "ethics"
and
"NSF"  (NSF is the USA National Science Foundation, which funds a number
of
grants each year with the mission of introducing of ethics into "all"
science, medical and engineering courses.) Below are a few examples of
funded projects:

http://oregonstate.edu/dept/ncs/newsarch/1998/Mar98/bioethic.htm
CORVALLIS - Oregon State University has received a grant from the
National
Science Foundation to hold a National Bioethics Institute this summer to
help faculty from OSU and from around the country integrate ethics into
their science courses.
Only 30 faculty will be admitted into the institute - about half from
OSU
and the rest chosen from applications around the country.
The institute is one of three that the National Science Foundation will
fund
on bioethics during 1998-99, according to Courtney Campbell, director of
OSU's Program for Ethics, Science and the Environment.
"The relationship between ethics and science is becoming more pronounced
-
and is under greater scrutiny - than ever before," Campbell said. "It is
important to discuss these issues with students, but when ethics
professors
go into a science classroom, they don't necessarily have the credibility
with students, and it gives the appearance that ethics are peripheral to
the
'regular' curriculum.
"What we hope to do is begin training science faculty how to integrate
the
teaching of ethics throughout the curriculum."
Among the topics planned: ethical issues surrounding biotechnology, the
renewed interest in land ethics and natural resources, treatment of
animals,
and the role of religion.

http://www.cse.nd.edu/~kwb/nsf-ufe/
The field of "Ethics and Computing" encompasses a lot of territory.
Courses
in this area may be taught in programs such as Information Systems,
Computer
Science, Computer Engineering and Electrical Engineering. Material in
this
area may be taught as a stand-alone course and/or as modules in courses
throughout the curriculum. Whatever teaching responsibility you have
related
to this area, the materials here should help you to teach ethics and
computing in a way that provides rigorous, relevant and effective
learning
experiences for your students.

http://www.nsf.gov/sbe/ses/sdest/start.htm
The Societal Dimensions of Engineering, Science, and Technology (SDEST)
program contains two components: Ethics and Values Studies, and Research
on
Science and Technology. The program announcement is NSF 01-152. Target
dates
for submitting proposals are February 1 and August 1. In SDEST, the
Ethics
and Values Studies (EVS) component focuses on developing and
transmitting
knowledge about ethical and value dimensions associated with science,
engineering, and technology




-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]
Sent: Wednesday, October 29, 2003 6:16 PM
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: Historically formal ethics was excusively offered by philosphy
depts; probably still is!


Well then where are those arguments? And where is the research? The
propaganda put out by some of my colleagues was not of a publishable
standard yet somehow was published...it would not have passed
introductory ethics though may have obtained a pass in politics. I think
you are confusing veterinary ethics with veterinary politics. Ethics is
NOT spelled P_O_L_I_T_I_C_S! Why don't any practicing veterinary
ethicists display a basic education in ethics? I think you are very
confused about what ethics is. Why not take a course in basic ethics at
one of the main universities and find out? None of us should ever think
we know it all. A veterinary degree, even a PhD does NOT confer ethics
capabilities. I am constantly amazed that the public would ask doctors
et

_________________________________________________________________
Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95.  
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)


From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger" 11-NOV-2003 15:23:35.29
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician.

You wrote:
Apparently Ceann and Ray think that their personal version of "the right
thing" should be foisted upon everyone else!!!! Isn't that what the
Nazi's reasoning was?
Jackie Perkins

======Puuulease!  Although your statement illustrates an interesting example 
of human behavior, just why are you going over the top?  Taking it 
personally?  Outraged over their expressions of opinion?  Or what?  IMHO, 
your comparison of the reasoning of these two list members to Nazis' 
reasoning is far more offensive than what they wrote.
     Jo

-----Original Message-----
From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 5:14 AM
To: Ray Stricklin; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Subject: RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does
NOT make one a mathematician.


--- Ray Stricklin <wrstrick@umd.edu> wrote:
 > Ethics - stated quite simply - is ultimately all
 > about "doing the right
 > thing."
 >
.Dr. Stricklin,
   How refreshing to see that phrase.  Most decisions
we have to make really can be made simple by thinking
of that phrase before making the decision.
CeAnn

=====
CeAnn Lambert
Indiana Coyote Rescue Center
www.WolfPark.org/ICRC

__________________________________
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From:	IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 11-NOV-2003 15:53:01.98
To:	IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Do animals lead their targets?

Thanks, this was a great reply to my question. As an AI researcher we are 
most interested in learning to imitate and match the learned components of 
complex behaviors like these. Instinctual responses are less interesting to us 
because as a rule they tend to be less general and more applicable to the 
ecological niche of the animal. The project leader, peter, invariably takes the 
position that behaviors in animals should always be assumed to be instincts, 
tropisms, or simple conditioned responses unless they are definitively demonstrated to 
be otherwise.

My job is basically to define an evolutionary (nonbiological definition) path 
for our AI to develop. That is I put together the tests of learning and 
problem solving that gradually get harder and more sophisticated. Right now I am 
looking non-primate, non-cetacean, mammalian learning and problem solving to 
find examples of genuine cognition that I can adapt to challenges for our AI.

After reading your reply I am left with the question, where can I look in the 
literature for proof that these behaviors represent cognition and learning 
rather than an instinct. Do you have any suggestions?

Short answers from one who has spent many years observing the behavior of 
avian,
mammalian, reptilian, piscine and arthropod predators close up:

1.  Yes, many animals do lead their targets

2.  That behavior has both innate and learned components

Some more or less random examples:

A falcon diving at approximately 200 mph is able to strike a grouse or similar
bird, traveling across its field of view at 50-80 mph, with great accuracy. 
This would be impossible without a fairly sophisticated onboard computer which
not only provides an appropriate "lead" - continuously corrected for changes 
in
the angle between the two flight paths - but also provides instantaneous,
preprogrammed responses to various (likewise preprogrammed <G>) avoidance
maneuvers of the quarry.

A sighthound running at approximately 35 mph is able to snatch a hare, moving 
at
nearly the same speed, in a diving, somersaulting "take" maneuver in which the
hound, fully airborne during the dive, is unable to make midflight corrections
and so must accurately predict the anticipated position of the quarry at the
moment of contact.  Of course such dives often miss, because of last-minute
evasions by the hare, but they connect a surprisingly high percentage of the
time.

That avian predators lead their targets can be deduced from the existence of
stereotyped escape behaviors in the prey species, behaviors adapted to 
confound
a predator's trajectory prediction system.  Such behaviors can readily be
observed in the aerial evolutions of any flock of pigeons, even in the absence
of a predator.  They consist of abrupt wing-over and sideslip maneuvers which
suddenly place the bird to one side, behind and below where it would have been
had it continued its unbroken flight.  These maneuvers are based on innate 
motor
patterns ("Erbkoordinationen") with a genetic basis: 1) they are performed by
young, recently fledged pigeons who have never seen a predator, and 2) they 
have
been the object of selection by pigeon fanciers, resulting in breeds known as
"tumblers" and "rollers" in which the maneuvers are shown in exaggerated form
and/or with exaggerated frequency, in the case of "parlor tumblers" to the 
point
of rendering the birds incapable of normal flight.  Similar evasive maneuvers
can readily be observed in wild ducks and geese, shore birds and many others. 
The remarkable collective maneuvers of flocks of starlings and American
blackbirds confound a predator's aim in a slightly different but equally
effective way, combining unpredictability of trajectory with presentation of a
shifting mass of bodies in which tracking of any individual target becomes
almost impossible.  Both types of evasive behavior show striking social
facilitation, with the adaptive result that even flock members who have not
themselves seen the approaching predator become more difficult targets.

At a more sophisticated level, a sighthound may become so familiar with the
behavior of hares that it can correctly predict the escape path a hare will
take, and take a shortcut to get there first.  Sometimes such "hedging" is in
the nature of guesswork, and in that case the hound will probably guess wrong 
a
fair percentage of the time.  Occasionally, however, you encounter a hound 
which
seems to have a real understanding of hare mentality.  Such a hound will 
hardly
ever make a mistake.

A great deal of the behavior of predators is directed toward predicting the
habits or actions of their prey, in such a way as to increase their success 
rate
and/or decrease the amount of energy they must expend to capture prey.  One 
interesting aspect of that, readily observable in trained hawks because of the 
intimate association between man and bird, is the way a predator constructs a 
"working territory" out of the remembrance of particular events and the 
placesand times associated with them.  A hawk which has made a capture at one 
particular time and place is likely on another day to revisit that place at that 
time in the hope of repeating its success.  In the wild the prey animals of 
course also notice this pattern, and are apt to change their habits or timing to 
frustrate the predator's intentions.  At that point a wild hawk will move on to 
another, probably also familiar location and try its luck there.  The result 
after some time is a more or less regular "round" of visits to different 
hunting grounds, a round which may take weeks to complete.

A trained hawk will also remember, for example, a particular tree branch from
which it launched a successful rabbit capture; and will remind you of that 
fact
by wanting to jump from your hand to the branch, when next you pass that way 
at an appropriate time of day, even weeks or months later.

The ability of prey to predict the behavior of predators is nicely illustrated
by an anecdote.  For a time I flew a hawk at ducks on certain small ponds 
about a quarter hour's drive from my laboratory.  At the end of the work day I 
would drive there as fast as possible and have perhaps half an hour of good 
daylight in which to get two or three flights at the ducks.  The ducks needed only 
a very short time to figure out this pattern and responded by leaving the 
ponds en masse, for the safety of larger bodies of water from which even a dog 
could not flush them, a few minutes before my anticipated arrival on the scene 
with my hawk.  Just like the wild raptor, I had to seek a new location for my 
efforts - since changing my work schedule was not practicable <G>.

Prediction of events in the environment - such as the trajectory of fleeing 
prey
- is after all one of the principal functions of a nervous system.

John
-- 
Dr. John Burchard
Tepe Gawra Salukis
http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/
saluqi@ix.netcom.com

From:	IN%"mappleby@hsus.org"  "Michael Appleby" 11-NOV-2003 16:06:35.24
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Welfare of Food Animals -  Cost

Dear All

Michael Meredith sent a thoughtful follow-up to my statement "that major
improvements in farm animal welfare could be achieved with only minor
increases in the price paid for food by consumers."

Yes, the economic realities of farming and food retailing are harsh. My
main point is that they are particularly harsh because decisions about
what is actually done in farming and retailing are almost entirely left
to the so-called "free market", and that this continues partly because
of over-simplifications about costs which are perpetuated by those who
have a vested interest in the status quo, such as agribusinesses. Those
over-simplifications include the idea that improving welfare of farm
animals is very costly, and that farmers can't afford to do so. Well, it
is true that under conditions of extreme competition independent farmers
must concentrate on surviving this year, but it is also true that making
permanent compromises on animal welfare doesn't help survival NEXT year,
because by then the "savings" have been eroded by lower selling prices. 

I stand by my broad-brush picture summarized in the quote above,
challenging the idea that improving welfare of farm animals is very
costly. Michael says that:

> The capital costs data that you give leaves out the crucial matter of
extra labour costs.

Well, I didn't explicitly mention labour costs, but I did include two
big elements (doubling the space and facilities provided for the
animals, increasing production costs by 10%, and introducing new disease
control measures at a cost that also amounts to 10% of the original
total). So there is flexibility there for increased labour. There is an
important recent paper (ref. below) that is the first I know to make a
proper estimate of the cost of improved welfare systems for pigs.
Compared to a partly-slatted system, costs increase by 7% in Freedom
Food and 8% in free range. And remember that those increases are
'diluted' by marketing, transport and so on before we get to the retail
stage: McInerney (1998) estimated that banning sow stalls would increase
pork production costs by 5% but retail prices by only 1%.

So when I pointed out that the data Michael quoted were from the Animal
Agricultural Alliance, and he asks:
> do you really think it would have been much different if someone else
had gathered it Mike?
I answer Yes, because the way the questions are framed, and the context
in which the information is used, is critical to its interpretation.

> The organic meat movement here is growing steadily ... The meat sells
at double to triple  the cost of ordinary commercial meat.
> Freedom Foods meat ... cost around 50% more than ordinary meat and
eggs 

OK, I'll agree that those figures contradict my argument, but there are
at least two factors that may help explain them. First, these may be
very small markets, with small producers dealing with small numbers of
animals and delivering small shipments to retailers. In fact,
development of these niche markets is the main positive sign challenging
both economic orthodoxy and the demise of small farms. It would be
interesting to project what would happen if such methods were used on a
larger scale. Second, somebody in there (perhaps the retailers) may be
marking up a larger profit margin on these 'specialist' goods than on
'normal' meat. That used to be one of Ruth Harrison's complaints: that
retailers saw free range products, for example, as a way to make more
profit, and that this prevented free range systems being introduced more
widely.

Anyway, I agree with you, Michael, that the market position is tough.
And it isn't helping anyone, including the farmers (at least the smaller
farmers) - and certainly not the animals. But as someone has said, the
market is there to serve society, not the other way round, so we must
start to look for new mechanisms that will produce what society wants,
rather than just competing to survive.

Mike

Bornett et al (2003) Impact of animal welfare on costs and viability of
pig production in the UK. J. Agric. & Environmental Ethics 16, 163-186
McInerney, J. P., "The economics of welfare," in A. R. Michell and R.
Ewbank (eds.), Ethics, Welfare, Law and Market Forces: The Veterinary
Interface (Universities Federation for Animal Welfare, Wheathampstead,
UK, 1998), pp. 115-132.

Michael C. Appleby (Dr)
Vice-President
Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture 
The Humane Society of the United States
2100 L Street, NW Washington, DC 20037, USA
Switchboard 1 202 452 1100
Direct 1 301 258 3111
Fax 1 301 258 3081
Email mappleby@hsus.org

-----Original Message-----
From: michael.meredith@btconnect.com
[mailto:michael.meredith@btconnect.com] 
Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 3:57 PM
To: Ethology Posting
Subject: Re: Welfare of Food Animals - Cost


Mike Appleby wrote...

>  In this case the questions were asked by
> the Animal Agricultural Alliance

I quoted their data, because it supports the experience of many people
in Europe and the USA, do you really think it would have been much
different if someone else had gathered it Mike?

> > Despite the relationship between cost and welfare on farms, it turns
> out, surprisingly, that major improvements in farm animal welfare 
> could be achieved with only minor increases in the price paid for food

> by consumers.

Experience in the UK mitigates strongly against this view, Mike.

a) The capital costs data that you give leaves out the crucial matter of
extra labour costs.

b) The organic meat movement here is growing steadily, although still
has only a tiny share of the meat market place. Higher welfare is a key
aspect of its production systems. The meat sells at double to triple
the cost of ordinary commercial meat.

c) As you know the UK Royal Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to
Animals has pioneered in recent years a "welfare-friendly" brand of meat
under the name "Freedom Foods" (based on the ideal of giving animals the
oft-quoted "5 freedoms"). Freedom Foods meat has now disappeared from my
local supermarket, in the wake of a TV-expose a year or so ago which
revealed that the 5-freedom claims were fraudulent on some of the
RSPCA-certified farms. When the Freedom Foods meat and eggs were
available in my local supermarket (and they pushed it very strongly,
until it lost credibility) it cost around 50% more than ordinary meat
and eggs - even though, allegedly, many of their poultry farms at least,
were taking short-cuts over welfare promises.

Many of us, over the years, in endeavouring to raise the standards of
farm animal welfare have repeatedly bashed our heads against this
economic wall. This is why I have gone down the road of exploring how we
might reduce labour costs on farms e.g. by recruiting farms to act in
loco parentis for delinquent youngsters.

The alternative route is to legislate, but until welfare is regarded as
a legitimate criterion in international trade, national legislation will
just suck in cheap low-welfare imports. The UK pig industry has more
welfare controls than any other significant pigmeat producer, but has
lost one third of production in the last 4 years because it cannot
compete with cheap imports. A significant aspect of this decline in the
world's highest-welfare, significant  pigmeat-producing nation is that
it is mainly the small family farms and mixed enterprise small holders
that have gone out of business. Unfortunately the highly industrialised
agribusinesses are the farms best suited to survive in a
regulations-intensive, highly competitive, market  situation.

When it comes to restaurant meals, especially the expensive ones that
you perhaps frequent Mike <cheeky grin>, meat and egg costs are indeed
only a small percentage of the bill, and the dynamics of bringing about
more high-welfare discrimination are quite different. Most people do not
choose their restaurant on the basis of the food source. Some (rare)
restaurants do make it a marketing feature, but presumably this is not
"a winner", or more restaurants would promote themselves in this way and
not begrudge paying a lot more for their meat and eggs.


I hope that these points are helpful, even though the realities are
harsh.

Mike M
www.sunflower-health.com



From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger" 11-NOV-2003 16:15:51.85
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	narrow-mindedness/changing others' behaviors

======Jackie wrote:
I too have worked formerly as a human mental health professional for some 16 
years, and very successfully. I rarely tell anyone straight out that they 
are wrong. There is however one thing that I routinely view as wrong and 
that is narrow mindedness. I deeply respect the rights and views of others 
and expect some reciprocal respect. More people need to develop that 
respect. It would be a better and more tolerant society. Ethics is a whole 
subject area. It can not be trivialized away by stating that it is just 
about doing the right thing, more especially when doing the right thing 
means something different to each person. And behaviour can be changed; why 
else would we have mental health
professionals? The best way to change behaviour is through education and 
research. This discussion list is promoting education.  It can be 
uncomfortable to have one's beliefs challenged, but to grow we
need to work through such discomfort and dig deep asking ourselves to 
rationally justify why we believe what we do, and develop more tolerance and 
respect for opposing views. Otherwise we will be self righteous narrow 
minded Nazis.  I have learned much from this discussion list. Eg I did not 
even realize
that horses ever had their tails docked. I thought it was just the hair.

Please keep the information and discussion coming, even if I do not always 
like the content.
Jackie Perkins

=====Cecelia wrote:
Jackie,
   That is so lame and so wrong.  I am responsible for my behavior.  I am 
not responsible for the behavior of anyone else.  I have worked in the 
mental health field for about seventeen years.  One thing that I have 
learned is that I can't change anyone elses behavior.  I can only change the 
way that I deal with that behavior.  I consider your behavior on this list 
with it's innuendos as inappropriate and it will from now on be dealt with, 
with the delete button.

======I respectfully disagree with a point each of you make.  Jackie, you 
wrote "There is however one thing that I routinely view as wrong and that is 
narrow mindedness."  I've come to believe, through my extensive personal 
experience in the mental health field dealing with young, old, and very 
troubled people, that even the so-called state of narrow-mindedness has MUCH 
usefulness in the constellation of human behavior because it is an essential 
factor in the progress of humans toward successful and peaceful cultures.

I do not believe narrow-mindedness is 'wrong', but that it's a healthy tool 
that can shine a spotlight on how societal problems are born and bred, thus 
enabling us to drive unique and long-term solutions.  Successfully rejecting 
narrow-mindedness and trying to change people with that trait is 
self-defeating.  It will never be erased from our species, and should not 
be, for the attention it calls to the seeds of societal problems.  Dealing 
with narrow-mindedness, i.e., changing one person at a time, as therapists 
may do, wastes effort.  It's worth far more exploration in addition to 
getting to the root of one person's 'problems', simply because it can lead 
to bigger problem-solving applications.  The quality of narrow-mindedness 
can lead to the stimulation of remarkable insights and achievements in of 
itself, for the person possessing it and for those personally connected with 
that person.

CeAnn wrote that individuals cannot change the behaviors of other 
individuals, only how individuals can react to those behaviors.  I disagree 
for two reasons: that if someone desires to change their behavior and seeks 
help for it, whomever they call upon has the ability and permission to do it 
(Jackie alluded to this); and that when a person changes how they react to 
another's behavior, the ultimate effect is to teach the other how to behave 
in that person's company (if the relationship is to continue).

Also, I believe we all have to take responsibility for how we treat everyone 
else!  It may be fashionable today to declare we're not responsible for how 
another feels or for what another does, but that is an over-generalized and 
shallow belief--an easy copout.  So many people have no or low self-esteem, 
lack a self-identify, seek escape from a situation, or are vulnerable for a 
plethora of reasons.  Such people are known by their behaviors and 
personalities:  those around them may be indifferent, take advantage for 
self-interests, or behave nurturingly toward them.  Our responses to them 
affect their day-to-day lives and ultimately the important choices, 
relationships, careers.
     Jo

_________________________________________________________________
Great deals on high-speed Internet access as low as $26.95.  
https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.)


From:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin" 11-NOV-2003 17:07:47.15
To:	IN%"mappleby@hsus.org"  "Michael Appleby", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Welfare of Food Animals - Consumers like the Idea but not the Cost

-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Appleby [mailto:mappleby@hsus.org]
Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 11:25 AM
To: Ethology Posting
Subject: RE: Welfare of Food Animals - Consumers like the Idea but not
the Cost



> Despite the relationship between cost and welfare on farms, it turns
out, surprisingly, that major improvements in farm animal welfare could
be achieved with only minor increases in the price paid for food by
consumers. As one illustration, the capital costs of animal production

-------------------------------
Dear All,

The above statement may not be true for all countries and all situations -
and some of the recent discussion has addressed this point.

However, I believe that the above statement does have validity relative to
improving welfare of some (maybe one could say most) animals in USA
intensive confinement production systems.

On CBS-TV last week, I saw a spokesperson for the egg producers who now
provide eggs for MacDonald's in the USA say that they have found that the
cost of production per egg has not greatly increased with the new space
requirements.  He stated, in fact, that reducing the number of birds from 9
to 7 per cage had brought about reduced mortality and morbidity and maybe
even increased the number of eggs per bird - thus off-setting much (or some)
of the increased costs of housing per bird.

I think that there are other examples that could be made relative to USA
production systems.  I also suggest that in the case of Britain, many of the
changes were not necessarily "minor," and thus these more significant
changes can greatly affect cost of production.

W.R. Stricklin


From:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "Geiger" 11-NOV-2003 18:01:01.92
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	ethics of shows including big cats

I found Ray's reasoning personally compelling, about big cats being
inherently dangerous. But if certain people choose to put themselves at
risk by working with big cats, why should they be prevented? The issues
of caging big cats, and euthanasing big cats for attacking are of course
related unexplored issues. 
Jackie Perkins



From:	IN%"post@gry.no"  "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Gry_L=F8berg?=" 12-NOV-2003 02:14:15.07
To:	IN%"apbc4_um@ftech.net", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation

Hi all
We are in Norway making lots of new laws and regulations regarding animals.
We have a new dog-law, a new animal welfare law, new regulations ragarding
keeping dogs outside in pens, and about housing and management of horses.

I am together with some partners kommenting on the regulations regrding
horses, and need some help with information and references.

One of the suggestion is saying: "Horses should have enough social
experience with people early in life to prevent them from beeing frightend
of people and their environment"

We would like to be more specific here, I know they have an
imprintingperiod, but do horses have a sensitive period for socialisation
and habituation? I have not found anything about it in the litterature so
far. If you do have any information about this I would be pleased if you
could let med know.


Gry Lřberg



From:	IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk"  "Robin Walker" 12-NOV-2003 03:15:39.04
To:	IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au"  "'Geiger'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: ethics of shows including big cats

Dear Jackie,

I think you are perilously close to advocating the dismantling of every
Public Health and Work Safety rule ever enacted by law!

"Certain Persons" will always be found willing to "choose" to take risks
in 
working in any environment. They MUST be protected from themselves!

The tiger and gorilla wrestler Aspinall found several employees
apparently willing to die at his zoo.

An ex Head Keeper at Howletts addressed the Companion Animal Behaviour
Studies Steering Group in Birmingham, 1999. I asked from the floor
for his views on such risk taking. He divulged what the "great gambler"
only went into his play-pen under the rifles of three keepers who
were obliged to turn out whenever the "boss" had the fancy.
The gamblers bets were hedged!

If you are defending the right to solitary suicidal activity then I
suppose I must defend your sacred right to choice.

However willing, those who must attempt rescue on land, sea and 
in circus arena should be protected by Law.


Robin

PS The rifle-toting keepers were not instructed to shoot
Mr Aspinall if the tigers were in danger! 

-----Original Message-----
From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] 
Sent: 12 November 2003 00:00
To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: ethics of shows including big cats

I found Ray's reasoning personally compelling, about big cats being
inherently dangerous. But if certain people choose to put themselves at
risk by working with big cats, why should they be prevented? The issues
of caging big cats, and euthanasing big cats for attacking are of course
related unexplored issues. 
Jackie Perkins





From:	IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk"  "Robin Walker" 12-NOV-2003 06:54:19.54
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology Network"
CC:	
Subj:	Shirt Tail Check

At the start of the 20th century, industrialists like Andrew Carnegie
and John D Rockefeller saw a justification for competitive capitalism in
Darwin's 'survival of the fittest'. Eugenics would surely be the logical
step forward, enabling man to command his own evolution in a way that
was efficient and progressive. In 1904, the Carnegie Institution founded
a centre for genetic research at Cold Spring Harbour, with Charles
Davenport as director. Davenport soon turned his attention to human
inheritance. Along with such purely genetic traits as albinism and
Huntington's disease, he also traced conditions like alcoholism and
'feeble-mindedness' through family lineages. He pronounced these to be
Mendelian in nature. In 1910, with the financial support of the Harriman
and Rockefeller families, he established the Eugenics Record Office at
Cold Spring Harbour and appointed Harry Laughlin as its superintendent.




Meanwhile, the psychologist Henry Goddard had introduced the Binet
intelligence test to the US at the start of the century. This gave the
eugenicists a way to quantify intelligence, and, more particularly,
measure and define 'idiots', 'imbeciles' and 'morons'. Goddard's famous
study of the inheritance of feeble-mindedness in the pseudonymous
'Kallikak' family was published in 1912. This and other studies showed
that the devil of genetic unfitness was at work within the US. The only
way to deal with the problem was 'negative eugenics' - denying the right
to breed. By 1931, 27 American states had enacted sterilisation laws to
allow the compulsory sterilisation of certain categories such as the
feebleminded and morons. By 1941, almost 36,000 individuals in the US
had been compulsorily sterilised under such laws. The trend spread:
within a few years a number of European countries had followed suit with
compulsory sterilisation. These included not only Nazi Germany, but also
Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries. 
 
  



From:	IN%"wickens@ufaw.org.uk"  "Stephen Wickens" 12-NOV-2003 07:10:23.99
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	ISAZ 2004: Advances in the Science and Application of Animal Training, 6th October 2004 Glasgow, Scotland

Advances in the Science and Application of Animal Training
The 13th Annual Conference of the International Society for
Anthrozoology (ISAZ)
6th October 2004, Glasgow, Scotland

With support and assistance from the Universities Federation for Animal
Welfare (UK Registered Charity No. 207996)
Satellite meeting to IAHAIO 2004 http://www.glasgow2004ad.com/


First Announcement and Preliminary Call for Papers

Aims
Humans use animals in many ways =96 they are farmed, kept as pets, used =
as
experimental subjects and exhibited within zoos. An integral part of any
successful relationship with these animals requires their ability to
integrate into their captive, anthropocentric, environment and to behave
in a way that conforms to our expectations. Failure to adapt to this
environment can have a profound impact on the welfare of the animal, and
may result in its ill-health, rejection or death.

Training has long been recognised as an important component in the
successful adaptation of companion animals, their inclusion in sporting
events and other recreational activities. An extensive folk literature
exists relating to the training of these animals. Knowledge and practice
based upon scientific principles, such as classical conditioning and
instrumental learning may also be employed. Less recognised is the
contribution relevant training can have on the management and husbandry
of other animals eg. on farm, in zoos and the laboratory.

This meeting aims to discuss recent developments in learning theory and
related fields, in the methodologies and techniques of training. It will
also consider the application of these for practical training of
animals. It seeks to bring together veterinarians, animal scientists,
ethologists, psychologists, animal trainers and others who work with
animals to share knowledge and good practice. It hopes to encourage a
wider consideration of the ways training can be used to improve the
husbandry, management and welfare of animals.

Details
The meeting will be held on 6th October at Scottish Exhibition and
Conference Centre, Glasgow.=20

The provisional layout for the meeting is as follows:

Invited papers from keynote speakers, plus submitted abstracts from
recent research studies addressing the following areas

1.	The science of learning, including recent developments in
learning theory =96 behaviour systems theory, mathematical principles of
reinforcement, and holistic integration of biological and psychological
approaches to training.
2.	Advances and innovations in training and conditioning techniques
(welfare based integration of positive and negative conditioning in
training, shaping, jackpotting and clicker training).
3.	Applying advances in theory and technique to the practical
training of animals, including companion, farm, zoo, aquaria,
laboratory, shelter and assistance animals and those used in sporting
events. The role of the carer/owner in successful training programmes.
4.	Welfare and ethical implications of training: use and abuse. The
role of the trainer, clinical animal behaviourist.

Call for Papers
We are inviting submission of abstracts for oral and poster
presentations If you would like to present a paper at the Symposium,
please indicate your intention by filling in the form below and sending
a proposed title as soon as possible and by 1st December 2003 at the
latest.  The deadline for submission of abstracts is 30th January 2004.=20

It is intended that the proceedings of the Symposium will be published
as a special edition of the journal Anthrozo=F6s; the deadline for =
receipt
of full papers selected for inclusion will be 6th October 2004.

Instructions for Abstracts














Registration=20
If you are interested in attending or contributing to the 2004 Glasgow
conference and wish for further details and a full registration form,
please complete the form below and return it to:
Dr Deborah Goodwin, Lecturer in Applied Animal Behaviour, University of
Southampton, School of Psychology, Animal Behaviour Programme, New
College Campus, Southampton, SO17 1BG, UK. Tel: +44 (0)23 597 272; Fax:
+44 (0)23 597306; Email: dg1@soton.ac.uk.=20

Are you interested in human-animal interactions? Join ISAZ
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAB/ISAZ.htm

Preliminary Registration

Title (Dr/Mr/Ms/etc)			Forename:=09
Surname:=09
Position:=09
Organisation:=09
Address=09
Postcode/Zip:				Country:=09
Tel:					Fax:=09
Email:=09

I am interested in attending the ISAZ=92s 2004 conference	(   )
I am interested in submitting a paper			(   )

Provisional title of paper:=20




Timetable:
Monday 1st December 2003		Deadline for submission of
abstract titles
Friday 30th January 2004		Deadline for submission of
complete abstract
Early March 2004			Final notification of acceptance
sent to contributors
Wednesday 6th October 2004	ISAZ Conference. Registration from
09:00hrs. Contributors submit papers for inclusion in proceedings

From:	IN%"wickens@ufaw.org.uk"  "Stephen Wickens" 12-NOV-2003 07:41:17.95
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	ISAZ 2004: Advances in the Science and Application of Animal Training, 6th October 2004 Glasgow, Scotland

Apologies, if your previous email informing you of this meeting was =
missing
some information. The relevant sections have now been reformatted and =
should
now appear.


=20
Advances in the Science and Application of Animal Training
The 13th Annual Conference of the International Society for =
Anthrozoology
(ISAZ)
6th October 2004, Glasgow, Scotland

With support and assistance from the Universities Federation for Animal
Welfare (UK Registered Charity No. 207996)
Satellite meeting to IAHAIO 2004 http://www.glasgow2004ad.com/


First Announcement and Preliminary Call for Papers

Aims
Humans use animals in many ways =96 they are farmed, kept as pets, used =
as
experimental subjects and exhibited within zoos. An integral part of any
successful relationship with these animals requires their ability to
integrate into their captive, anthropocentric, environment and to behave =
in
a way that conforms to our expectations. Failure to adapt to this
environment can have a profound impact on the welfare of the animal, and =
may
result in its ill-health, rejection or death.

Training has long been recognised as an important component in the
successful adaptation of companion animals, their inclusion in sporting
events and other recreational activities. An extensive folk literature
exists relating to the training of these animals. Knowledge and practice
based upon scientific principles, such as classical conditioning and
instrumental learning may also be employed. Less recognised is the
contribution relevant training can have on the management and husbandry =
of
other animals eg. on farm, in zoos and the laboratory.

This meeting aims to discuss recent developments in learning theory and
related fields, in the methodologies and techniques of training. It will
also consider the application of these for practical training of =
animals. It
seeks to bring together veterinarians, animal scientists, ethologists,
psychologists, animal trainers and others who work with animals to share
knowledge and good practice. It hopes to encourage a wider consideration =
of
the ways training can be used to improve the husbandry, management and
welfare of animals.

Details
The meeting will be held on 6th October at Scottish Exhibition and
Conference Centre, Glasgow.=20

The provisional layout for the meeting is as follows:

Invited papers from keynote speakers, plus submitted abstracts from =
recent
research studies addressing the following areas

1.	The science of learning, including recent developments in learning
theory =96 behaviour systems theory, mathematical principles of =
reinforcement,
and holistic integration of biological and psychological approaches to
training.
2.	Advances and innovations in training and conditioning techniques
(welfare based integration of positive and negative conditioning in
training, shaping, jackpotting and clicker training).
3.	Applying advances in theory and technique to the practical training
of animals, including companion, farm, zoo, aquaria, laboratory, shelter =
and
assistance animals and those used in sporting events. The role of the
carer/owner in successful training programmes.
4.	Welfare and ethical implications of training: use and abuse. The
role of the trainer, clinical animal behaviourist.

Call for Papers
We are inviting submission of abstracts for oral and poster =
presentations If
you would like to present a paper at the Symposium, please indicate your
intention by filling in the form below and sending a proposed title as =
soon
as possible and by 1st December 2003 at the latest.  The deadline for
submission of abstracts is 30th January 2004.=20

It is intended that the proceedings of the Symposium will be published =
as a
special edition of the journal Anthrozo=F6s; the deadline for receipt of =
full
papers selected for inclusion will be 6th October 2004.

Instructions for Abstracts
Example:

Training Assisted Therapy Animals: Welfare Issues
Miles D Jones* and Patricia K Davis=86
*Dept of Animal Welfare Science, Hampton College, USA
=86 Dept of Psychology, University of Hatfield, UK

Abstracts must be written in English and not exceed 250 words, excluding
title, authors' name and addresses. Titles of abstracts, name(s) and
institution address(es) should be centred and in bold title case. A =
blank
line should precede the text. The text should outline clearly and =
concisely
the main findings or premise without reference to other text.

Please provide one hard copy along with a PC formatted electronic copy.
Please use Microsoft Word for Windows when submitting an Abstract.

Registration=20
If you are interested in attending or contributing to the 2004 Glasgow
conference and wish for further details and a full registration form, =
please
complete the form below and return it to:
Dr Deborah Goodwin, Lecturer in Applied Animal Behaviour, University of
Southampton, School of Psychology, Animal Behaviour Programme, New =
College
Campus, Southampton, SO17 1BG, UK. Tel: +44 (0)23 597 272; Fax: +44 =
(0)23
597306; Email: dg1@soton.ac.uk.=20

Are you interested in human-animal interactions? Join ISAZ
http://www.vetmed.ucdavis.edu/CCAB/ISAZ.htm

Preliminary Registration

Title (Dr/Mr/Ms/etc):
Forename:
Surname:
Position:
Organisation:
Address:
Postcode/Zip:
Country:
Tel:
Fax:
Email:

I am interested in attending the ISAZ=92s 2004 conference	(   )
I am interested in submitting a paper			(   )

Provisional title of paper:=20

Timetable:
Monday 1st December 2003		Deadline for submission of abstract
titles
Friday 30th January 2004		Deadline for submission of complete
abstract
Early March 2004			Final notification of acceptance
sent to contributors
Wednesday 6th October 2004	ISAZ Conference. Registration from 09:00hrs.
Contributors submit papers for inclusion in proceedings

From:	IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu"  "Ray Stricklin" 12-NOV-2003 08:04:45.98
To:	IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk"  "Robin Walker", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology Network"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Shirt Tail Check

-----Original Message-----
From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu]
Sent: Saturday, October 25, 2003 7:57 PM

>>>>Snip>>>>
Regarding, information on eugenics specifically, there is a site with
considerable information at http://www.africa2000.com/ENDX/.  This site
includes a listing of both the British and American membership in the
Eugenics Society.  I cannot vouch for the authenticity of all the
information included, but there are some very interesting names included on
the list - not the least of which is Roger Brambell with a membership date
of around 1960. There are a number of other scientists for whom I have
enormous respect including Sewell Wright, Edward Thorndike and a number of
statisticians and geneticists.  It is humbling for me to look through this
list and then speculate on how future generations will view the actions and
positions held by me and my contemporaries in science.
>>>>>>>>>>>>

Dear All,

Soon after I originally posted the above statement, I asked a colleague, who
was an undergrad at University of North Wales when Roger Brambell was there
as professor of Zoology and one of the most respected biologists in the UK,
why he thought that Brambell would be listed as a member of a eugenics group
as late as 1960.

He was as surprised as was I, but then he made what I think is an
interesting observation.  He stated to the effect that with the
breakthroughs in DNA manipulation, embryo transfer, stem cell research,
cloning, etc. that he expected the views of many of the eugenicists would
return - but couched in different language and methodology.

W.R. Stricklin



-----Original Message-----
From: Robin Walker [mailto:coape@nildram.co.uk]
Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 7:49 AM
To: Applied Ethology Network
Subject: Shirt Tail Check

At the start of the 20th century, industrialists like Andrew Carnegie
and John D Rockefeller saw a justification for competitive capitalism in
Darwin's 'survival of the fittest'. Eugenics would surely be the logical
step forward, enabling man to command his own evolution in a way that
was efficient and progressive. In 1904, the Carnegie Institution founded
a centre for genetic research at Cold Spring Harbour, with Charles
Davenport as director. Davenport soon turned his attention to human
inheritance. Along with such purely genetic traits as albinism and
Huntington's disease, he also traced conditions like alcoholism and
'feeble-mindedness' through family lineages. He pronounced these to be
Mendelian in nature. In 1910, with the financial support of the Harriman
and Rockefeller families, he established the Eugenics Record Office at
Cold Spring Harbour and appointed Harry Laughlin as its superintendent.

Meanwhile, the psychologist Henry Goddard had introduced the Binet
intelligence test to the US at the start of the century. This gave the
eugenicists a way to quantify intelligence, and, more particularly,
measure and define 'idiots', 'imbeciles' and 'morons'. Goddard's famous
study of the inheritance of feeble-mindedness in the pseudonymous
'Kallikak' family was published in 1912. This and other studies showed
that the devil of genetic unfitness was at work within the US. The only
way to deal with the problem was 'negative eugenics' - denying the right
to breed. By 1931, 27 American states had enacted sterilisation laws to
allow the compulsory sterilisation of certain categories such as the
feebleminded and morons. By 1941, almost 36,000 individuals in the US
had been compulsorily sterilised under such laws. The trend spread:
within a few years a number of European countries had followed suit with
compulsory sterilisation. These included not only Nazi Germany, but also
Switzerland and the Scandinavian countries.






From:	IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk"  "Robin Walker" 12-NOV-2003 08:40:11.13
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Applied Ethology Network"
CC:	
Subj:	Dog eat Dog eat Man eat Dog eat Man eat Man?

It has always (since 1962 at least) seemed to me that the apparent
anomaly of visceral larva migrans was less an example of
a parasite getting confused (or lost) but more a reflection of an
important
phase in our evolution. Cannibalsm was probably always with us. The
extraordinarily useful partnership with the dog (and its precursors?) 
may have been of critical assistance to Man (and his precursors/) and
the evolution of Toxocara canis.

The possible scale of human cannibalism is an unpopular fish
fighting upstream against natural currents of revulsion.

I do not think we can dismiss the thought anymore than we can
deny infant exposure.

I add below a snippet for your interest/denial.

Robin Walker 




Trends in Ecology & Evolution

Widespread prehistoric human cannibalism: easier to swallow?

Mark Stoneking stoneking@eva.mpg.d Trends in Ecology and Evolution (July
30, 2003), 10.1016/S0169-5347(03)00215-5

Max Planck Institute for Evolutionary Anthropology, Deutscher Platz 6,
D-04103 Leipzig, Germany

Abstract 



There is increasing evidence that cannibalism, formerly thought to 
be a rare and/or 'abnormal' human behaviour, was practiced widely by 
our ancestors. Support for this contention comes from a new paper by 
Mead et al. that finds evidence for balancing selection at the prion 
protein gene in human populations, which might have been driven by 
past epidemics of prion diseases (such as kuru) that were 
transmitted via cannibalism.
Few human behaviours induce more intense feelings of horror, 
disgust, revulsion - and fascination - than cannibalism. From the 
so-called 'primitive' cannibals of yore, to grisly tales of 
survival, such as the Donner party, to such Hollywood favorites as 
Hannibal Lecter, the idea of consuming human flesh invokes a 
abnormal circumstances or a few, less-advanced societies. But there 
 is an increasing body of evidence that indicates that cannibalism 
 might have been more widespread in prehistoric times [1-4] , as well 
 as practiced more regularly in recent times [5], than we might like 
 to think. A new study of molecular variation at the prion protein 
 gene locus in human populations [6] adds fuel to the fire by 
 suggesting, to paraphrase Tim White [7], that indeed we were once 
 cannibals.

How does one deduce evidence for widespread prehistoric cannibalism 
from a study of molecular genetic variation in contemporary
populations? The gene in question encodes the prion protein, a
mysterious protein that occasionally, by an unknown  post-translational
mechanism, adopts an alternative conformation  that leads to the
formation of spontaneous aggregates in the bra which in turn lead to
neurodegenerative 'prion' diseases, such asCreutzfeldt-Jakob disease,
kuru (a rare progressive encephalopathy), bovine spongiform
encephalopathy (BSE) and scrapie  [8,9] . Homozygosity for a particular
amino acid polymorphism, a  methionine-valine substitution at codon 129,
is associated with  increased susceptibility and an earlier age of onset
of prion diseases [10,11] ; apparently, heterozygosity inhibits the
spontaneous conformational change in the prion protein that leads to
disease.
In a recent Science paper, Mead et al. [6]
Acknowledgements ........... snip


References 


[1] Defleur A. et al. (1999) Neanderthal cannibalism at 
    Moula-Guercy, Ardeche, France.
    Science, 286:128-131. 
            
[2] Fernandez-Jalvo Y. et al. (1999) Human cannibalism in the early 
    Pleistocene of Europe (Gran Dolina, Sierra de Atapuerca, Burgos, 
    Spain) J. Hum. Evol., 37:591-622. 

[3] Marlar R.A. et al. (2000) Biochemical evidence of cannibalism at 
    a prehistoric Puebloan site in southwestern Colorado.
    Nature, 407:74-78. MEDLINE Cited by

[4] Turner C. and Turner J. (1999) Man Corn: Cannibalism and 
    Violence in the Prehistoric American Southwest. : University of Utah

    Press

[5] Diamond J.M. (2000) Talk of cannibalism.
    Nature, 407:25-26. 

[6] Mead S. et al. (2003) Balancing selection at the prion protein 
    gene consistent with prehistoric kurulike epidemics.
    Science, 300:640-643. 

[7] White T.D. (2001) Once we were cannibals.
    Sci. Am., 285:58-65. 

[8] Prusiner S.B. (1982) Novel proteinaceous infectious particles 
    cause scrapie.
    Science, 216:136-144. 

[9] Collinge J. (2001) Prion diseases of humans and animals: their 
    causes and molecular basis.
    Annu. Rev. Neurosci., 24:519-550. 

[10] Palmer M.S. et al. (1991) Homozygous prion protein genotype 
     predisposes to sporadic Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.
     Nature, 352:340-342. MEDLINE Cited by

[11] Cervenakova L. et al. (1998) Phenotype-genotype studies in 
     kuru: implications for new variant Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease.
     Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci. U. S. A., 95:13239-13241.  
           
[12] Gajdusek D.C. (1977) Unconventional viruses and the origin and 
     disappearance of kuru.
     Science, 197:943-960.

[13] Goldfarb L.G. (2002) Kuru: the old epidemic in a new mirror.
     Microbes Infect., 4:875-882.

[14] Arens W. (1979) The Man-Eating Myth. : Oxford University Press

[15] Pfennig D.W. et al. (1998) Pathogen transmission as a selective 
     force against cannibalism.
     Anim. Behav., 55:1255-1261. 

[16] Dercole F. and Rinaldi S. (2002) Evolution of cannibalistic 
     traits: scenarios derived from adaptive dynamics.
     Theor. Popul. Biol., 62:365-374. 

[17] Tajima F. (1989) Statistical method for testing the neutral 
     mutation hypothesis by DNA polymorphism.
     Genetics, 123:585-595. 

[18] Stephens J.C. et al. (2001) Haplotype variation and linkage 
     disequilibrium in 313 human genes.
     Science, 293:489-493. 

[19] Harpending H. and Rogers A. (2000) Genetic perspectives on 
     human origins and differentiation.
     Annu. Rev. Genomics Hum. Genet., 1:361-385.



                   




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From:	IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com" 12-NOV-2003 13:58:59.45
To:	IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "Ethology Posting"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Welfare of Food Animals -  Economics & Practicalities of Changing Behaviour

I would like to briefly add a little more comment that might clarify further
our debate on the cost of providing better quality of life for farm animals
on commercial farms in developed countries.

Then I want to progress into what I suggest is one of the more fruitful
areas for progressing farm animal welfare.


The Argument that Improved Welfare has Minimal Cost
---------------------------------------------------------------------
I have heard this argument thrown at the farming industries for four decades
now - ever since the Brambell Report in the 1960s. The bottom line (no pun
intended!) is that, true or false, it simply does not sell - most farmers
just will not "buy into" this argument.

We can go down the road, beloved of conspiracy theorists, that says that
agribusinesses are conspiring together to obstruct animal welfare, if we
wish, but that story has been around for a long time also and has not done
farm animals a jot of good either - In my personal experience, the entire
food chain is awash with three main motivators:

a) a ruthlessly competitive marketplace
b) financial acquisitiveness
c)  the fear of going bust.

The fear of "going under" in this highly competitive marketplace cannot be
underestimated - businesses at all levels of the food chain, farmer,
processor, wholesaler and retailer go bust in droves. This climate of fear,
I suggest, is a prime foundation for the  strong "status quo" mentality that
Michael Appleby has reminded us of. Running with the herd is a common safety
policy and taking major risks can cost you years of work building up your
business, plus the income that supports yourself and your loved ones.

If we are only interested in minor ("cosmetic"?) improvements in welfare -
like reducing the number of birds from 9 to 7 per cage mentioned by Ray
Stricklin - then, yes, the cost/risk implications of improved are only
minor, as indeed the improvement in welfare is only minor.

However, if we are interested in the types of welfare improvements which
allow a species to express a greater range of natural behaviour,  for
example...

a)  providing pigs with rooting materials;
b) providing poultry with outdoor scratching areas.

Then the cost/risk implications become very scary for farmers. It is not
that these provisions cost much in simple direct terms, it is the
implications that they may have for labour requirements, bullying, regulated
feed
intake, hygiene and disease control.

For example in the freedom foods scheme, chickens had to be provided with
access to outdoor scratching areas, but farms shown in the TV documentary
were (allegedly, but convincingly), discouraging the birds from going
outside because they knew
this would precipitate a flare-up of disease.

If High Welfare is Profitable - Show us!
------------------------------------------------
There is one powerful argument that the anti-welfare-improvement lobby can
draw on.

They can, and often do, say, simply "Show us!"

They say "If you have all the answers, and more welfare is economically
viable, then why don't you set up and run a profitable commercial farm - if
it works, then we will all do it!"

I have not seen any convincing response to this challenge - do let me know
if I have missed it!

I am aware of lots of good practical extension work around the world,
including by members of this list, where farms are implementing high welfare
systems. It is great to see these, but as far as I am aware they either:

a) sell to a premium-price, niche market, or are financially subsidised;

or

b) work and struggle incredibly long hours for "a pittance" - BUT do this
because they value a greater quality of life (in some respects) for
themselves and their livestock.

Both of these are absolutely fine, but seem unlikely to ever make up the
bulk of meat production in countries where most consumers consider price an
over-riding consideration when purchasing meat.


Loosening Up The Economic Dynamics and Climate of Fear
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
Our experience in Britain following the national ban on gestation stalls,
was very salutary. The pig industry went into shock, horror and panic (and
so did some overseas suppliers who foresaw that they would be in the firing
line if they did not conform).

After the initial bad reaction, some farmers left the industry especially
those smaller farms that could not afford the cost of conversion.

The remainder of the industry (except the outdoor farms in favourable areas
who were already OK)  knuckled down and invested in the quite huge amount of
R & D that was needed to develop gestation housing, feeding equipment  and
modified management systems that would fit the law AND be economically and
practically viable. Actually they have difficulty in competing on price with
meat from overseas farms that have sows in stalls and the home industry is
smaller than it was before the stall ban.

The point of this is that high-welfare systems have to "evolve" because
there are considerable economic and practical obstacles to their widespread
implementation. This evolution requires a lot of co-operative work by
ethologists, economists, vets, engineers, feed industry, regulators,
processors and retailers, and of course practical farmers and their
advisors. The R & D also needs financial support.

I believe that "preaching salvation to sinners" from a largely idealistic,
theoretical or "denying harsh realities"  perspective serves no-one, and is
in fact very divisive.

Working together, seeking to enhance mutual respect and understanding is the
road to real progress if the welfare of man and beast is to be progressed. I
am proud to be part of an applied ethology list whose members have done so
much in that direction.

These days I am largely, but not rigidly, vegetarian - part of a big trend
in the UK. - A trend accentuated in the last two years by some very poor
farming
industry and veterinary profession leadership during our FMD epidemic.

However, I dread vegetarianism taking over completely almost as much as I
dread factory farming taking over completely. I dread a day when farm
animals might no longer decorate our countryside.

I was very moved by the sentiment of that poem which includes those immortal
words "For what is man without the beasts?"
see..
www.stress-counselling.co.uk/sunflower/VISIONS/connection.htm

Michael Meredith
www.sunflower-health.com



From:	IN%"MEUFFE99@smumn.edu"  "Michael Edward Uffenbeck" 12-NOV-2003 17:38:09.98
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Theory of Mind

There is some arguement that aquiring a theory of mind (desires, beliefs, and intentions) requires language (Hauser "Wild Minds What Animals Really Think").  This criteron is met by species such as the african grey (http://www.alexfoundation.org/research/articles/birdsusa.html).  Hauser asks the question if this language requirment is met how does human language compare to animal communication and how might this alter the way a organism thinks?  I was hoping someone could shed further light on the subject.

Also one other question.  Chronic wastings disease may be attributed to prions but it is occuring in white-tailed deer which by their dental structure are vegans.  Since, the dental structure takes many years to evolve I assume this species has been a vegetarian for many generations.  If I understand this right how does this fit into the cannibalism theory?


From:	IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 12-NOV-2003 19:22:03.11
To:	IN%"MEUFFE99@smumn.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Theory of Mind

In a message dated 11/12/2003 3:41:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
MEUFFE99@smumn.edu writes:
Also one other question.  Chronic wastings disease may be attributed to 
prions but it is occuring in white-tailed deer which by their dental structure are 
vegans.  Since, the dental structure takes many years to evolve I assume this 
species has been a vegetarian for many generations.  If I understand this 
right how does this fit into the cannibalism theory?
Well, I think there are a few faulty assumptions here. 

One, though the known cases of prion disease communication is through eating, 
there is no theoretical reason why this is the only way to communicate the 
disease. A very plausible route is maternal-fetal transmission. Further, current 
belief is that prion disease also rarely happens spontaneous through mutation 
or protein processing errors in normal metabolism. 

Second, I have yet to learn of a species that is absolutely herbivorous. All 
animals are opportunistic feeders. I don't expect to see deer feasting on 
carrion, but they do inadvertently eat insects, most animals will lick blood from 
a fresh wound and I am pretty sure that deer lick bones that they find in the 
wild, presumably for mineral content. Squirrels which I know a bit more about 
are generally regarded as herbivorous, but they will east eggs, baby birds, 
and small snakes. 

Third, prions as a mechanism of etiology are notoriously hard to demonstrate. 
I suspect that the idea that wasting disease is a prion disease is primarily 
speculation, not an established fact, though I haven't followed this topic.

From:	IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" 12-NOV-2003 19:46:43.12
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation

Gry L=F8berg wrote:

"Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life =
to
prevent them from being frightened of people and their environment"

Perhaps in some perfect situation this might be possible - but, even if =
it
were, would it necessarily be good welfare? Fear is an essential =
survival
trait - and in the case of the horse all environmental novelty is
potentially threatening, and therefore a source of possible fear. =
Without
any novelty the environment is bland, predictable and likely to produce =
some
degree of sensory deprivation, and, it might reasonably be suggested, =
poor
welfare.=20

Equally would there not be a requirement for the people that provide the
social experience to all behave in a way that is predictable and =
constant
(as far as the perception of horses is concerned) across a wide number =
of
people? Given that there is no real consensus in training or handling
methods as yet how would it be possible to prevent such, generally, =
negative
elements as 'learned helplessness' or 'learned laziness' being built-in =
to
the paradigm of management? The mere fact of exposure to interaction =
with
people does not, by or in itself, guarantee a lack of fear - in fact =
were
the current trend in 'round-pen' use, or, equally, other methods =
modelled on
the concept of 'dominance' to continue (I have no knowledge of whether =
this
is done in Norway) then contact with people could easily produce fear =
rather
than prevent it.

I think there may also be some, albeit anecdotal, evidence to support =
the
contention that nervousness, in some individuals, decreases with =
maturity.
If this were to be true then it might well be better to leave well alone
until the horse has a more mature character before expecting social =
contact.


Are there no feral horses in Norway? For, if there are, how would such =
an
aim impact them?=20

If welfare legislation is to be drawn up would it not better be based on
maximising provision of the 5 freedoms?

Regards
Andy Beck
White Horse Equine Ethology Project
433 Wharepunga Rd
RD3 Kaikohe
Northland
Aotearoa - New Zealand
http://www.equine-behavior.com
http://www.equine-social-behavior.org
http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz
=20

-----Original Message-----
From: Gry L=F8berg [mailto:post@gry.no]=20
Sent: Wednesday, 12 November 2003 9:14 p.m.
To: apbc4_um@ftech.net; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation

Hi all
We are in Norway making lots of new laws and regulations regarding =
animals.
We have a new dog-law, a new animal welfare law, new regulations =
regarding
keeping dogs outside in pens, and about housing and management of =
horses.

I am together with some partners commenting on the regulations regarding
horses, and need some help with information and references.

One of the suggestion is saying: "Horses should have enough social
experience with people early in life to prevent them from being =
frightened
of people and their environment"

We would like to be more specific here, I know they have an
imprinting period, but do horses have a sensitive period for =
socialisation
and habituation? I have not found anything about it in the literature so
far. If you do have any information about this I would be pleased if you
could let med know.


Gry L=F8berg



From:	IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 12-NOV-2003 20:05:31.71
To:	IN%"MEUFFE99@smumn.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Theory of Mind

In a message dated 11/12/2003 3:41:35 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
MEUFFE99@smumn.edu writes:
There is some arguement that aquiring a theory of mind (desires, beliefs, and 
intentions) requires language (Hauser "Wild Minds What Animals Really 
Think").  This criteron is met by species such as the african grey 
(http://www.alexfoundation.org/research/articles/birdsusa.html).  Hauser asks the question if 
this language requirment is met how does human language compare to animal 
communication and how might this alter the way a organism thinks?  I was hoping 
someone could shed further light on the subject.
I so hate armchair psychologists that think they are qualified to speak on 
mind because they have one and have thought about it a lot. I have heard all 
sorts of claims of the kind that go "language is necessary for this or that" and 
"that's what separates us from the animals." I have worked with humans who 
through stroke have had their language abilities devastated and their ability to 
think logically remains largely intact as does self-awareness, and ability to 
understand the motives of other people. In fact, an importent form of 
self-awareness, the ability to tell self from non-self is localized to the right 
"nonverbal" hemisphere.

These writers as a whole tend to be exceptionally verbal thinkers and 
correspondingly see the world through their verbal facilities and assume the rest of 
the world must do so. I don't know about you, but when I am trying to figure 
out another persons mind I use my emotions and visceral senses, I augment this 
with visual pattern recognition, visuospatial problem solving, and to some 
small extent verbal labels and internal dialogue.

I haven't read Hauser's book but any book that claimed that "only language 
makes possible..." I circularly file. Just the claim in the title that he knows 
"what animals really think" makes it suspect. Be careful about these broad 
speculative treatise. They generate the illusion of understanding without giving 
you any useful or verifiable information. They are an intellectual narcotic 
for our need to know.

From:	IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk"  "Robin Walker" 13-NOV-2003 03:33:04.59
To:	IN%"MEUFFE99@smumn.edu"  "'Michael Edward Uffenbeck'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Theory of Mind

Dear Michael and All,

I have copied the last paragraph of your communication,

"Despite our success in teaching Alex to communicate with us at an
apparently advanced level, he cannot talk to us the same way that we
talk to one another. For example, he does not tell us what he did
yesterday, nor can we ask him what he would like to do tomorrow. But our
work does suggest that these birds are intelligent creatures that can
interact with humans in some very interesting ways. Not all birds will
necessarily learn as much as Alex has. Some birds may even learn more.
The essential point an owner of one of these creatures must realize is
that birds are intelligent beings that deserve companionship and
intellectual stimulation."

The bird is a remarkable musician, mimic, navigator etc with 
a powerful memory. I do believe that memory is the leading study
for that which we (in our conceit) call intelligence. The bird
does not "speak" English. It sings and can mimic songs. (call and
recall?).


I cannot remember what it was like before I was born. Then I have
little islands memory. I became "intelligent" in the fullest
sense when I developed continuous memory and the ability
of infinite cross reference. As a species we are pre-minent for that if
not unique.

The stroke reduced me to utter blackness. Over a period of a month
I regained little islands of memory. When these glimpses
conjoined to a critical mass I was conscious again. For me
this has been a recapitulation of my childhood. It has taken four years.

Now McGaugh, Cahill, LeDoux, Pinker (et multi alia) and the suffering
members
of this list are assisting me to recover.

I offer them my sincere thanks and apologies.

Robin Walker


-----Original Message-----
From: Michael Edward Uffenbeck [mailto:MEUFFE99@smumn.edu] 
Sent: 12 November 2003 23:37
To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Subject: Theory of Mind

There is some arguement that aquiring a theory of mind (desires,
beliefs, and intentions) requires language (Hauser "Wild Minds What
Animals Really Think").  This criteron is met by species such as the
african grey
(http://www.alexfoundation.org/research/articles/birdsusa.html).  Hauser
asks the question if this language requirment is met how does human
language compare to animal communication and how might this alter the
way a organism thinks?  I was hoping someone could shed further light on
the subject.


Also one other question.  Chronic wastings disease may be attributed to
prions but it is occuring in white-tailed deer which by their dental
structure are vegans.  Since, the dental structure takes many years to
evolve I assume this species has been a vegetarian for many generations.
If I understand this right how does this fit into the cannibalism
theory?




From:	IN%"D.Lee@mcri.ac.uk"  "Diane Lee" 13-NOV-2003 06:43:27.09
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Theory of Mind

> This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand
this format, some or all of this message may not be legible.

--Boundary_(ID_fR1Nr+tjCwv6eekSA53Psg)
Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT


"A very plausible route is maternal-fetal transmission. Further, current
belief is that prion disease also rarely happens spontaneous through
mutation or protein processing errors in normal metabolism."

As a Biochemist by training I can support this theory. The mutation of prion
genes gives rise to disease in much the same way as oncogenic genes do. It
was once thought that humans could not 'catch' BSE (CJD) because their
genetic make up was not the same as that of cattle - in order for prions to
be active, a dimer of two compatible units must be formed. It is now
realised that through mutation of the human gene, it is actually possible to
have a unit compatible with cattle/other species' prions.

It follows that deer eating a carnivorous diet - accidentally or otherwise,
could develop vCJD/any similar disease. Given that I have personally been
told of horses eating meat (birds in particular) there's no reason to
believe that deer are not capable of the same thing. So, I support the
second paragraph of this post too!

"Third, prions as a mechanism of etiology are notoriously hard to
demonstrate. I suspect that the idea that wasting disease is a prion disease
is primarily speculation, not an established fact, though I haven't followed
this topic."

It was certainly established years ago that prions were one mechanism of
developing wasting diseases - I have a friend who worked on BSE in cattle
for the Veterinary Laboratories Agency in the UK. I don't know if they are
the sole mechanism, but based on my knowledge in the field of Cancer
Biology, I doubt it.




--Boundary_(ID_fR1Nr+tjCwv6eekSA53Psg)
Content-type: text/html; charset=US-ASCII
Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT

<HTML>
<HEAD>
<TITLE>Re: Theory of Mind</TITLE>
</HEAD>
<BODY>
<BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
&quot;<B>A very plausible route is maternal-fetal transmission. Further, current belief is that prion disease also rarely happens spontaneous through mutation or protein processing errors in normal metabolism.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
As a Biochemist by training I can support this theory. The mutation of prion genes gives rise to disease in much the same way as oncogenic genes do. It was once thought that humans could not 'catch' BSE (CJD) because their genetic make up was not the same as that of cattle - in order for prions to be active, a dimer of two compatible units must be formed. It is now realised that through mutation of the human gene, it is actually possible to have a unit compatible with cattle/other species' prions.<BR>
<BR>
It follows that deer eating a carnivorous diet - accidentally or otherwise, could develop vCJD/any similar disease. Given that I have personally been told of horses eating meat (birds in particular) there's no reason to believe that deer are not capable of the same thing. So, I support the second paragraph of this post too!<BR>
<BR>
</B>&quot;<B>Third, prions as a mechanism of etiology are notoriously hard to demonstrate. I suspect that the idea that wasting disease is a prion disease is primarily speculation, not an established fact, though I haven't followed this topic.&quot;<BR>
<BR>
It was certainly established years ago that prions were one mechanism of developing wasting diseases - I have a friend who worked on BSE in cattle for the Veterinary Laboratories Agency in the UK. I don't know if they are the sole mechanism, but based on my knowledge in the field of Cancer Biology, I doubt it.<BR>
</B><BR>
</BLOCKQUOTE><BR>
</BODY>
</HTML>


--Boundary_(ID_fR1Nr+tjCwv6eekSA53Psg)--

From:	IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 14-NOV-2003 09:11:58.92
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"  "applied ethology list"
CC:	
Subj:	Pecking and injury in chickens]

To Applied Ethology List members

This interesting question was posed on another list and an answering 
comment made.  Are there further answers?

from Arnold Chamove <A.S.Chamove@massey.ac.nz>

>I've been doing some chicken aggression studies here in NZ, effects 
>of enrichment on aggression specifically, and have two problems.
>1--I cannot find any studies which give a dollar/euro value to 
>chicken pecks.  I have found ways of easily reducing number of pecks 
>by half in caged laying hens, but I cannot find out the "value" of 
>such a reduction.  I dont know if such a reduction is worthwhile.  I 
>dont know how much a reduction of 50% or of 20 pecks per hour 
>reduces eggs laid by X. Do any of you know of any such studies.
>
>2--In performing a Sequential Sampling analysis, I need a value of 
>"the magnitude of effect", how big the effect needs to be before it 
>is considered of value.  In my case how big a reduction in pecking 
>is "worthwhile",  or is value for the cost of the manipulation to 
>the farmer.  But I cannot find any studies which estimate such an 
>effect size.
>
>
>Bill Muir, Professor of Genetics  at  Purdue University has kindly 
>translated my question into another format.  He says,
>
>What you are asking for is exactly the same thing a breeder calls 
>the marginal economic weight of a trait in a selection index 
>program.  It gives the marginal effect expressed as the economic 
>change per unit change in the trait.  If the unit is the peck, then 
>it would be $/peck.  Birds have been selected for peck reduction 
>(with great success).  Because pecking influences a number of 
>traits, such as survival, morbidity, productivity, stress, etc. the 
>only way to find such an economic weight is to regress the $ change 
>in income from the bird pecked on to the number of pecks that bird 
>received.  A roughly alternative method would be  to look at the 
>impact of beak trimming on productivity.  With the same flock, beak 
>trim 1/2 them as chicks, then in the 1/2 that are not trimmed count 
>the number of pecks per day and the productivity.  In the 1/2 that 
>are trimmed, just measure productivity.  The economic weight would 
>be the difference in productivity in $ divided by the number of 
>pecks per day.
>
>A most interesting and provocative re-framing, I would say.
>
>Many thanks for any help.
>
>Arnold
>
>
>Arnold S Chamove BA, MA, MPhil, PhD, DSc, FIBiol, Chartered Psychologist
>Massey University Psychology Dept., PB 11-222, Palmerston North, 
>5331 New Zealand
>Phone: +64 6 3555 889, X 2047; FAX +64 6 350 5673


Reply from Don Broom  dmb16@cam.ac.uk

Dear Arnold

A few thoughts on your interesting question, some of which points 
will be familiar to you.

Much pecking of one bird by another is not aggressive and much causes 
no injury.  A lot of the pecking which causes injury is not 
aggressive so the key issue is "injurious pecking".  The major injury 
problems occur in older birds, largely laying hens and broiler 
breeders.  Hence many pecks have no welfare or immediate economic 
cost whilst some lead to a train of events culminating in pain, 
severe injury and death.  It is the latter which are of real 
consequence.  Some of the factors affecting the extent of injury are 
discussed in the E.U. Scientific Veterinary Committee Report on the 
Welfare of Laying Hens VI/BII.2 VI/8660/96 (147 pages) but there have 
been quite a lot of relevant papers since then.

Best wishes

Don

--
Professor Donald M. Broom
Colleen Macleod Professor of Animal Welfare         President
Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine          St Catharine's College
University of Cambridge                             Cambridge CB2 1RL
CAMBRIDGE CB3 0ES                                   U.K.
U.K.

Telephone 0044 (0)1223 337697                       (0)1223 338344
Fax       0044 (0)1223 337610
e-mail    dmb16@cam.ac.uk

From:	IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu"  "Friend, Theodore H." 14-NOV-2003 09:27:40.91
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Donald Griffin obit.

Donald R. Griffin, 88, Who Argued Animals Can Think, Dies

By CAROL KAESUK YOON

Published: November 14, 2003


Ed Quinn for The New York Times
Dr. Donald R. Griffin in 2001.

Dr. Donald R. Griffin, who was considered the founder of the modern  
field involving the study of animal thinking and consciousness, and who  
early in his career helped unravel the secret of bats' navigation system,  
died last Friday in Lexington, Mass. He was 88.

An emeritus professor of animal behavior at Rockefeller University, Dr.  
Griffin gave birth to the field known as cognitive ethology in 1978 when  
he broke a scientific taboo by suggesting that animals might have the  
capacity to think and reason, and that scientists should study these  
mental processes.

"He started a revolution in the way we see animals," said Dr. Marian  
Stamp Dawkins, an animal behaviorist at Oxford University. "People had  
been saying we shouldn't study animal minds or animal consciousness but  
only things we can observe. He said this is a legitimate question. He  
really opened the door."

In his publications, Dr. Griffin argued that the great complexity and  
adaptability of animal behavior, from the sophisticated food-gathering  
behavior of chimps to the clever fishing techniques of herons, suggest  
that animals are not mere automatons. Instead, he maintained, they are  
thinking beings, even if they might be thinking about different things,  
in ways entirely different from humans.

In fact, other scientists in earlier centuries had considered the  
internal lives of animals (including Darwin, who wrote "The Expression of  
the Emotions in Man and Animals"), and many nonscientists have long been  
comfortable with the assertion that animals have thoughts, plans and  
feelings. Yet among scientists, especially those studying animal  
behavior, animal thinking was considered a subject that belonged far  
outside the realm of scientific exploration.

Many scientists say the only reason that animal thinking was given  
consideration at all was that Dr. Griffin suggested it. Respected as a  
rigorous scientist, he was known to biologists for discovering the method  
bats use to navigate in darkness.

As a student, Donald Griffin and a fellow student, Robert Galambos,  
found that bats could use reflected sounds to detect objects. In 1944,  
Dr. Griffin coined the term echolocation to describe the phenomenon.

To many, the idea was outrageous.

Dr. Griffin once wrote, "One distinguished physiologist was so shocked  
by our presentation at a scientific meeting that he seized Bob by the  
shoulders and shook him while expostulating, `You can't really mean  
that!' "

But while echolocation is well accepted today, Dr. Griffin's pleas that  
animal thinking and consciousness become standard fare for research have  
met with more mixed success.

The numerous and vocal critics of the growing field of cognitive  
ethology include both scientists and philosophers. Scientists complain  
the field is too dependent on anecdote, highly subjective and  
anthropomorphic, more akin to the way a dog owner envisions his pet's day  
than the way a scientist typically approaches the study of animal  
behavior.

In addition, the field's natural connection to movements like animal  
rights advocacy has made some scientists wary.

Yet for other scientists, animal reasoning and consciousness have merely  
become the latest in the long list of humanity's supposedly unique  
characteristics to be acknowledged as shared more widely across the  
animal kingdom. These researchers acknowledge the difficulty of studying  
an animal's mental state, but say such hurdles should not preclude animal  
thinking from being the subject of scientific research.

Today cognitive ethologists study many varied questions about how  
animals might think: if animals can form concepts, for example, or  
anticipate the actions of others.

"It's a curious point that I've made in all my books," Dr. Griffin once  
said, "that in the face of very weak evidence we scientists tend to make  
very strong, negative statements: no animal does this, animals can't do  
that and so on, when we really don't know. I think we should have an open  
mind."

Dr. Griffin was born in Southampton, N.Y., in 1915. He received his  
bachelor's, master's and doctoral degrees from Harvard. He was a  
professor at Cornell, then later at Harvard, where he was a professor of  
zoology. He finished his career at Rockefeller. He was also a member of  
the National Academy of Sciences.

After retiring from Rockefeller in 1986, he moved to Lexington, Mass.

He is survived by two daughters, Janet Abbott of Arlington, Mass., and  
Margaret Griffin of Montreal, and a son, John, of Brighton, Mass.


New York Times

....








_

From:	IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk"  "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 14-NOV-2003 09:55:17.20
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Pecking and injury in chickens]

Dear Arnold,

I am a little puzzled with the approach of linking
environmental enrichment to production measures or
economic costs.  As you know (and have written about),
environmental enrichment is usually justified by its
improvements in animal welfare.  If we adopt
justification on the basis of improved
production/economics, how can we justify enrichment
for animals when there will not be any possibility of
economic improvements, e.g. laboratory animals, zoo
animals? 






 --- "Joseph M. Stookey" <joseph.stookey@usask.ca>
wrote: > 
> 
> 
> To Applied Ethology List members
> 
> This interesting question was posed on another list
> and an answering 
> comment made.  Are there further answers?
> 
> from Arnold Chamove <A.S.Chamove@massey.ac.nz>
> 
> >I've been doing some chicken aggression studies
> here in NZ, effects 
> >of enrichment on aggression specifically, and have
> two problems.
> >1--I cannot find any studies which give a
> dollar/euro value to 
> >chicken pecks.  I have found ways of easily
> reducing number of pecks 
> >by half in caged laying hens, but I cannot find out
> the "value" of 
> >such a reduction.  I dont know if such a reduction
> is worthwhile.  I 
> >dont know how much a reduction of 50% or of 20
> pecks per hour 
> >reduces eggs laid by X. Do any of you know of any
> such studies.
> >
> >2--In performing a Sequential Sampling analysis, I
> need a value of 
> >"the magnitude of effect", how big the effect needs
> to be before it 
> >is considered of value.  In my case how big a
> reduction in pecking 
> >is "worthwhile",  or is value for the cost of the
> manipulation to 
> >the farmer.  But I cannot find any studies which
> estimate such an 
> >effect size.
> >
> >
> >Bill Muir, Professor of Genetics  at  Purdue
> University has kindly 
> >translated my question into another format.  He
> says,
> >
> >What you are asking for is exactly the same thing a
> breeder calls 
> >the marginal economic weight of a trait in a
> selection index 
> >program.  It gives the marginal effect expressed as
> the economic 
> >change per unit change in the trait.  If the unit
> is the peck, then 
> >it would be $/peck.  Birds have been selected for
> peck reduction 
> >(with great success).  Because pecking influences a
> number of 
> >traits, such as survival, morbidity, productivity,
> stress, etc. the 
> >only way to find such an economic weight is to
> regress the $ change 
> >in income from the bird pecked on to the number of
> pecks that bird 
> >received.  A roughly alternative method would be 
> to look at the 
> >impact of beak trimming on productivity.  With the
> same flock, beak 
> >trim 1/2 them as chicks, then in the 1/2 that are
> not trimmed count 
> >the number of pecks per day and the productivity. 
> In the 1/2 that 
> >are trimmed, just measure productivity.  The
> economic weight would 
> >be the difference in productivity in $ divided by
> the number of 
> >pecks per day.
> >
> >A most interesting and provocative re-framing, I
> would say.
> >
> >Many thanks for any help.
> >
> >Arnold
> >
> >
> >Arnold S Chamove BA, MA, MPhil, PhD, DSc, FIBiol,
> Chartered Psychologist
> >Massey University Psychology Dept., PB 11-222,
> Palmerston North, 
> >5331 New Zealand
> >Phone: +64 6 3555 889, X 2047; FAX +64 6 350 5673
> 
> 
> Reply from Don Broom  dmb16@cam.ac.uk
> 
> Dear Arnold
> 
> A few thoughts on your interesting question, some of
> which points 
> will be familiar to you.
> 
> Much pecking of one bird by another is not
> aggressive and much causes 
> no injury.  A lot of the pecking which causes injury
> is not 
> aggressive so the key issue is "injurious pecking". 
> The major injury 
> problems occur in older birds, largely laying hens
> and broiler 
> breeders.  Hence many pecks have no welfare or
> immediate economic 
> cost whilst some lead to a train of events
> culminating in pain, 
> severe injury and death.  It is the latter which are
> of real 
> consequence.  Some of the factors affecting the
> extent of injury are 
> discussed in the E.U. Scientific Veterinary
> Committee Report on the 
> Welfare of Laying Hens VI/BII.2 VI/8660/96 (147
> pages) but there have 
> been quite a lot of relevant papers since then.
> 
> Best wishes
> 
> Don
> 
> --
> Professor Donald M. Broom
> Colleen Macleod Professor of Animal Welfare        
> President
> Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine         
> St Catharine's College
> University of Cambridge                            
> Cambridge CB2 1RL
> CAMBRIDGE CB3 0ES                                  
> U.K.
> U.K.
> 
> Telephone 0044 (0)1223 337697                      
> (0)1223 338344
> Fax       0044 (0)1223 337610
> e-mail    dmb16@cam.ac.uk 

=====
.......................................................................................................
Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists
(Why spoil a good story with the facts?)

________________________________________________________________________
Want to chat instantly with your online friends?  Get the FREE Yahoo!
Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk

From:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com"  "Jo Angleberger" 14-NOV-2003 20:52:01.20
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	peculiar behaviors observed in squirrel and owl

Hi everybody,

Over the years I've asked many people about the following incidents, only 
getting speculation.  I'm eager to know what list members think.

Many years ago before I knew how to identify birds, I was in the woods 
mid-day and paused by a stand of immature trees (Frederick Co., MD, Catoctin 
Mtn. range).  I suddenly noticed something very peculiar clinging to one of 
the tree trunks 5-6' up.  It was an owl apparently clinging to the bark with 
its talons, and it had spread its wings in a fashion that it partly 
'embraced'  the tree trunk.  The camouflage effect  of this posture was 
remarkable--camouflage is the only theory that makes sense to me.  (One 
person I discussed it with suggested that the owl was probably very weak and 
clung to the tree, not having enough strength to perch. )   I have doubts 
about that, esp. since during the seconds we eyeballed each other, the owl 
suddenly took off through the woods without any apparent difficulty with 
flying.

In the same general woods, mid-day again, I was standing at a point with 
great visibility up and down hill--must have been late fall, winter, or 
early spring.  From about 100'  I watched an adult gray squirrel approaching 
my position.  I fully expected it to notice me and divert its travel.  
Instead, the squirrel stayed on a straight line toward me and continued to 
approach.  When it reached my own personal safety zone (regarding wild 
animals), I wondered if it had seen me, or meant to attack me.  The squirrel 
actually passed me within 4' and kept on going.  Was this squirrel sick or 
parasitized to cause such behavior--that of ignoring/enticing a potential 
predator?

Lastly, I saw the very end of a terrific nature doc on TV several years ago 
about animal behaviors that are caused by internal parasites.  The segment I 
saw was of a snail? with an internal 'colorful' parasite that lived in or 
near its head, and moved about so that its colors were easly seen through 
the skin, attracting predatory attention, so the narrator said.  Can anyone 
give me a lead to that program?
         Thanks!

    Jo

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From:	IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 14-NOV-2003 21:15:11.78
To:	IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: peculiar behaviors observed in squirrel and owl

In a message dated 11/14/2003 6:53:45 PM Pacific Standard Time, 
warblerneck@hotmail.com writes:

saw was of a snail? with an internal 'colorful' parasite that lived in or 
near its head, and moved about so that its colors were easly seen through 
the skin, attracting predatory attention, so the narrator said.  Can anyone 
give me a lead to that program?
         Thanks!

    Jo
I apologize if you already know this but it was not clear from your post. The 
parasite actually changes the snails behavior to make it move about on top of 
leaves during daylight. The parasite needs to be ingested by birds to 
complete its lifecycle, so it modifies its host both visibly and behaviorally to 
further this end. 

I think the program was "Nature" seen on PBS, but I am really not sure.


From:	IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 15-NOV-2003 23:56:21.73
To:	IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	Do mammals (non-primate) learn sequences of actions?

I have seen animals trained to perform elaborate chains of tasks to reach a 
reward. The examples I have found of this like this

go to this website and click on the link that says "Ruby the rat"

http://www.tufts.edu/as/wright_center/fellows/jbm6.html

are neat in that the animals performs several tasks before it receives a 
reward, but if you watch carefully, ruby can't be said to be deliberately 
following a sequence that she has internalized. This is because there is external cues 
as to which task is appropriate to do. 

That is the opportunity to perform the next task does not present itself 
until the previous task has been completed. There is no reason to believe that she 
is learning the sequence of tricks, just that doing the tricks as they 
present themselves eventually gets the reward.

I have seen other chained tasks where the position in the environment acts as 
the cue to what to do next.  Obstacle courses are typical of this sort of 
chain of tasks.

The question I have is there hard evidence that animals can learn "the proper 
order" to do things when the environment does not give cues as to what to do 
next? 

From:	IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 16-NOV-2003 11:26:59.88
To:	IN%"kc@synalia.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:	
Subj:	RE: Do mammals (non-primate) learn sequences of actions?

In a message dated 11/16/2003 2:09:47 AM Pacific Standard Time, 
kc@synalia.com writes:
They definitely can learn sequences - dolphins working for the US Navy -
up to 28 behaviors long.  However, usually we do not want the animal
performing a long rote chain, but rather, we want them to remain flexible
and process information from the environment.

For example, a monkey which is trained to aid a quadriplegic may do thirty
things to assist a person in doing their shopping, but not in some frozen
order.  If the quad is out of milk, they buy milk, if not, they don't.
Sometimes they go to the store before the bank, sometimes after.

The intelligence and adaptability of the animal can be a huge plus.

Best,
Kayce
I agree, but some tasks can only be accomplished if you perform the actions 
in a certain order. I was wondering if mammals (non-primate, non-dolphin) can 
learn such things without an external cue. Do they have the ability to know 
where they are in a sequence of actions?