From: IN%"cristina.giacoma@unito.it" "Cristina Giacoma" 1-NOV-2004 13:48:58.87 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: rescue centers we are promoting a new rescue centers for wildlife, mainly small mammals, birds and amphibians. We will love to receive the web page of high quality rescue centers, description of how they are organised, mistake not do when planning how to structure and how to build a rescue center for wildlife and any suggestion you might think helpful for beginners in the field of rescue centers including european regulations concerning cage requirements etc. thanks to all Cristina -- Prof. Cristina Giacoma Dip. Biologia Animale e dell'Uomo V. Accademia Albertina, 17 10125 Torino Italy Telephone: Giacoma's Office +39 011 670 4767 collaborators' office +39 011 670 4762 laboratory +39 011 670 4761 Fax +39 011 670 4732 e-mail: cristina.giacoma@unito.it _____________________________________________________________________ For your security, this mail has been scanned and protected by Inflex From: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." 1-NOV-2004 14:08:24.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: "Wild" Genes Hi everyone, Need some terminology and/or advice please. Long story short, Kerwood is opposed to the keeping of wolves and wolfdogs as "pets" (for numerous reasons but it is not my intent to get into that here). Posting something in a hurry on a discussion list I attempted to make the point that, unlike domestic dogs, wolves and wolfdogs have "wild" genes. Of course, since the majority of people on the pro-wolfdog list are totally at odds with Kerwood's position I am now being flamed. No such thing as "wild" genes. I think the point I tried to make is obvious but I obviously didn't state it correctly -- is there a scientific term for this? Are there any studies that would actually support our view? Thanks, Vivian Vivian Singer-Ferris Executive Director Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. info@kerwoodwolf.com www.kerwoodwolf.com Tel: (519) 247-1118 Fax: (519) 247-9876 From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 1-NOV-2004 14:18:35.36 To: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc.", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes Vivian, I think that the words innate behaviors might be more appropriate. Would that have worked with what you were trying to say? I don't know about "wild genes" CeAnn --- "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." wrote: > Hi everyone, > > Need some terminology and/or advice please. Long > story short, Kerwood is > opposed to the keeping of wolves and wolfdogs as > "pets" (for numerous > reasons but it is not my intent to get into that > here). Posting something in > a hurry on a discussion list I attempted to make the > point that, unlike > domestic dogs, wolves and wolfdogs have "wild" > genes. Of course, since the > majority of people on the pro-wolfdog list are > totally at odds with > Kerwood's position I am now being flamed. No such > thing as "wild" genes. I > think the point I tried to make is obvious but I > obviously didn't state it > correctly -- is there a scientific term for this? > Are there any studies that > would actually support our view? > > Thanks, > > Vivian > > > Vivian Singer-Ferris > Executive Director > Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. > info@kerwoodwolf.com > www.kerwoodwolf.com > Tel: (519) 247-1118 > Fax: (519) 247-9876 > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 1-NOV-2004 14:53:35.20 To: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes In a message dated 11/1/2004 12:10:24 PM Pacific Standard Time, =20 info@kerwoodwolf.com writes: Hi everyone, Need some terminology and/or advice please. Long story short, Kerwood is opposed to the keeping of wolves and wolfdogs as "pets" (for numerous reasons but it is not my intent to get into that here). Posting something i= n a hurry on a discussion list I attempted to make the point that, unlike domestic dogs, wolves and wolfdogs have "wild" genes. Of course, since the majority of people on the pro-wolfdog list are totally at odds with Kerwood's position I am now being flamed. No such thing as "wild" genes. I think the point I tried to make is obvious but I obviously didn't state it correctly -- is there a scientific term for this? Are there any studies tha= t would actually support our view? Thanks, Vivian The general term is wild-type allelic variation. This refers to the version= s=20 of the genes that tend to be expressed in free roaming animals as opposed t= o=20 animals that have been bred in captivity. It is my understanding that the=20 critical factor in the domestication of the dog was a type of selection cal= led=20 neotany. That is the continued expression of juvenile genes into adulthood.= =20 In other words, our dogs are essentially more like wolf puppies than wolves= .=20 This has reduced expression of genes associated with aggression and dominan= ce=20 and maintained playfulness. The best study I know of relating to this topic= =20 was done by a russian researcher that tried to breed "tame" silver foxes fo= r=20 the fur industry. In a few generations he wound up with foxes that displayed= a=20 host of juvenile traits in addition to those behavioral traits he was =20 selecting for. =20 Here is a reference to section of an artical that refers to the study =20 itself. The study is from 1979 so I do not have a link directly to it =20 The way i look at the topic is simply this. Wolves are heavily selected to =20 obtain the dominant status in the pack by whatever means is at their disposa= l. =20 They are fine tuned to get food by killing large and small animals. They ar= e=20 programmed to kill to defend a fixed territory and attack strangers. They =20 also have about twice the brain mass of domestic dogs and presumably use thi= s =20 brain mass to execute behaviors that centuries of breeding has not found to=20= be =20 desirable. In most cases I find these set to traits to be at odds with havin= g=20 a pet. Indeed to the extent that dogs still retain these traits the remain=20 the most problematic of our pets. =20 Michael Michalchik, neuroscientist /adaptive AI inc =20 =20 Dogs as =E2=80=98super=E2=80=99 wolves?=20 It has been accepted that dogs descended from wolves and that in general=20 both species express the same patterns of behavior._[8]_=20 (http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/PICKPUP.HTM#_edn8) _[9]_=20 (http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/PICKPUP.HTM#_edn9) The only controversy se= ems to be is when the differentiation=20 between the two species occurred and how the dog came to be domesticated in= the=20 first place. Recent work implies that the dog actually domesticated itself.= =20 _[10]_ (http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/PICKPUP.HTM#_edn10) _[11]_=20 (http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/PICKPUP.HTM#_edn11) However, there is li= ttle evidence=20 that the process of domestication has resulted in the loss of basic=20 behaviors, rather, what we see are specific behaviors that have been either= =20 accentuated or suppressed within the various breeds. The question then is h= ow did=20 selection for these traits occur? For instance those dogs bred for herding= =20 ability exhibit the eye/stalk/chase/and (sometimes) bite sequence of the pr= ey=20 drive but stop short of an actual attack._[12]_=20 (http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/PICKPUP.HTM#_edn12) Among the various typ= es of working styles are those that=20 work closely with their handlers, others work at a distance without direct=20 supervision. For our purposes here we can suggest that dogs that work most=20 closely with man tend to be better Obedience dogs than those that are doing= their=20 job in a more independent way (gundogs as opposed to hounds, shepherds=20 compared to livestock guarding dogs). Dogs of the breeds created for the c= losest=20 cooperation with humans developed a drive to act and respond on cues instea= d=20 of being strictly autonomous. This does not preclude that in their work the= y=20 may also partly make their own appropriate decisions._[13]_=20 (http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/PICKPUP.HTM#_edn13) =20 Like herding dogs, gun dogs have breed-specific behaviors. Retrievers=20 should display a spontaneous =E2=80=98chase and retrieve=E2=80=99 response.= Grab-bites are part=20 of the retriever=E2=80=99s repertoire too, but crush or kill-bites are faul= ted. An=20 obvious disqualification then would be would be a =E2=80=98dissect and eat= =E2=80=99 behavior.=20 Pointers silently hold the eye/stalk behavior until commanded to chase. Yet= =20 coonhounds and fox terriers are expected to vocalize during the chase and=20 bring down their prey with the grab and kill-bite. Would these breeds be yo= ur=20 first choice as the most suitable to be around children?=20 One popular theory suggests that dogs are actually displaying the juvenile=20 equivalent of the wolves=E2=80=99 =E2=80=98adult=E2=80=99 behaviors. Neotan= y is the term used for=20 retention of immature features in an adult and can be expressed both physic= ally=20 and behaviorally. In 1979, a Russian researcher published a study in which=20 foxes were bred for twenty generations on the basis of their =E2=80=98tamen= ess=E2=80=99.=20 _[14]_ (http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/PICKPUP.HTM#_edn14) Overtime the p= hysical=20 appearance of the animals and their social and reproductive behavior=20 changed: their pricked ears fell, their color went from silver to veri-colo= red, they=20 started to vocalize like dogs and the females came into season twice a year= =20 instead of the usual once a year. Physiological and behavioral problems=20 increased with each successive generation too. In fact some of the tamest f= oxes=20 developed abnormal maternal behavior and cannibalized their pups. So Belaya= v=E2=80=99s=20 work has shown that the domestication process is in fact a type of =E2=80= =99genetic=20 taming=E2=80=99 that has been attributed to changes in just a few genes tha= t control=20 the timing of various developmental stages.=20 _[14]_ (http://www.itsfortheanimals.com/PICKPUP.HTM#_ednref14) D.K. Belayav= ,=20 Destabilizing selection as a factor in domestication. Journal of =20 Heredity.70,301-308(1979)=20 From: IN%"Wendy@southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk" "WendyHanson" 1-NOV-2004 14:55:13.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: 'Wild Genes' Vivian Wolves have an earlier onset of hazard avoidance behaviour than domestic dogs do. Wolves have an average onset of hazard avoidance behaviour at around 19 days, which means that unless they are imprinted to humans and a 'domestic' environment prior to this then they will be impossible to tame. Is this what you mean? Wendy Hanson Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk From: IN%"jkoler@ccountry.com" "Janice Koler-Matznick" 1-NOV-2004 17:18:53.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes Domestication involves reduction of flight/fight response and environmental sensitivity/awareness in general. I believe the correct comparison between wolf/dog cranial capacity is that wolves have about 20% more relative brain volume than the average dog, but this is only the northern C. lupus, not the Middle Eastern wolf nor the red wolf, which have about the same as dogs. Remember that brain volume does not = intelligence or learning ability or any other parameter. Human geniuses can have anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000CC BV. Which parts of the brain are reduced (if any) in dogs compared to wolves is more important, and I do not have the comparative information at hand. The major problems with tamed wolves is their biological imperative to socially/physically dominate all in their 'pack' in order to breed, and their extreme neophobia/hyper-reactivity. These are neurochemically regulated responses with only some moderation possible through early exposure/conditioning. The differences between domestic dog and wolf behavior is one of degree, not presence/absence. I believe the vast majority of adult dogs act like adult dogs, and not neotenic wolves. BTW The correct spelling/pronunciation of this term, which is different than paedomorphosis, is: ne (long e sound)-OT-eny (short then long e sound). I recently used it for the first time in conversation with a biologist, rather than writing it, and said NEO-teny. I just hate it when that happens . Jan Janice Koler-Matznick, M.Sc. New Guinea Singing Dog Conservation Society IUCN Canid Specialist Group member Primitive and Aboriginal Dog Society 5265 Old Stage Road Central Point, OR 97502 USA Phone/Fax: 541-664-4023 From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 1-NOV-2004 18:07:25.24 To: IN%"jkoler@ccountry.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes In a message dated 11/1/2004 3:22:00 PM Pacific Standard Time, jkoler@ccountry.com writes: believe the correct comparison between wolf/dog cranial capacity is that wolves have about 20% more relative brain volume than the average dog, but this is only the northern C. lupus, not the Middle Eastern wolf nor the red wolf, which have about the same as dogs. Remember that brain volume does not = intelligence or learning ability or any other parameter. Human geniuses can have anywhere from 1,000 to 2,000CC BV. Which parts of the brain are reduced (if any) in dogs compared to wolves is more important, and I do not have the comparative information at hand. I stand corrected on the quantitative difference. Sorry, somehow I added a zero to my memory of the statistic. Still my basic point remains valid, that there is additional neural tissue in wild types that probably relates to the ability to compete in a natural environment in ways that make wolves poor pets or working animals. Indeed the difference may be even more dramatic since it is likely that parts of the wolves baribn that had been primarily involved with intraspecific competition have been coopted to process behaviors relevant to domestication. From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 1-NOV-2004 18:30:57.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes The term is actually "Neoteny". Lorenz and a few others also used the term "Paedomorphosis". Both terms are unfortunately used in developmental biology and evolutionary theory to define other phenomena (e.g., some paedomorphic amphibians, i.e., staying all of their lives at the larval stage). The "social" behaviour of domestic cat is often explained in terms of neotenic behavioural features (as both suspected ancestors are non-social). I.e., our adult cats are "kitten" versions of the wild counterparts. Belyaev studies were actually communicated for the first time to the occidental world in Fox's book on wild canids (1975, I believe), if I remember well, the same book that Lorenz prefaced and where he admits being wrong about the jackal origin of some dogs breeds. Simon G. --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University Ethology, behavioural endocrinology & ecotoxicology. Behaviour of wolves, coyotes, red foxes, and teleost fish http://www.gadbois.org/ --- From: IN%"MEUFFE99@smumn.edu" "Michael Edward Uffenbeck" 1-NOV-2004 20:08:01.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Infanticide in Black Bears In my literture search on infanticide I discovered a common set of conditions coinciding with this behavior. I would like to attempt research to understand the mechanism for how male black bears determine which progeny they sired. It seems a captive setting would be the only practical means of accomplshing this task. I suspect scent cues may be involved. Can anyone suggest statistically relavent design? I included a little information on the topic below. Ebensperger (1998) stated SSI follows sequence infanticide males should not kill their own progeny, males should use infanticide to shorten the pause between breeding periods, and subsequently the male should breed with the victimized female. Several studies have defined female defense strategies to combat the high ecological cost to the female (Craighead, Summner, and Mitchell 1995; Logon an Sweanor 2001; Wielgus and Brunell 1994). thanks much, Michael From: IN%"Jane.Malcolm@dpi.vic.gov.au" 1-NOV-2004 22:07:18.32 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Tail docking of cattle Can anyone help me with information on tail docking of cattle - impact on welfare? Just want to make sure I don't miss anything useful. Thanks, Jane Malcolm From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 1-NOV-2004 23:45:47.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes Cecilia Lambert wrote: > Vivian, > I think that the words innate behaviors might be > more appropriate. Would that have worked with what > you were trying to say? I don't know about "wild > genes" All animals, even domestic ones, have innate behaviors. So do humans, although we usually try rather hard not to recognize that fact. Konrad Lorenz was fond of saying that we call some of our innate behaviors "intelligence" . There is no such thing as "wild genes" but there may very well be gene combinations found in a wild species but not found, or at least not so well integrated, in its domestic derivatives. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 1-NOV-2004 23:58:00.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: 'Wild Genes' Wendy Hanson wrote: > Wolves have an earlier onset of hazard avoidance behaviour than domestic dogs > do. Wolves have an average onset of hazard avoidance behaviour at around 19 > days, which means that unless they are imprinted to humans and a 'domestic' > environment prior to this then they will be impossible to tame. > > Is this what you mean? I have to say that my own personal experience with wolves doesn't entirely support so strict an interpretation. I have known wolves, taken from the wild at five to eight weeks of age, which became quite reasonably "tame." They did not become pet dogs ... but neither does a wolf reared by humans from the day of its birth (which I have also done). Also, the meaning of "tame" is subject to widely varying interpretation. And finally, there is considerable variation among different sorts of domestic dogs in the extent of their "domestication" and neoteny of behavior. Generalizations based on the behavior of typical "pet" dogs in Western society are not necessarily applicable to more "aboriginal" types of dog. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 2-NOV-2004 00:01:59.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Need some terminology and/or advice please. Long story short, Kerwood is > opposed to the keeping of wolves and wolfdogs as "pets" (for numerous > reasons but it is not my intent to get into that here). Posting something in > a hurry on a discussion list I attempted to make the point that, unlike > domestic dogs, wolves and wolfdogs have "wild" genes. Of course, since the > majority of people on the pro-wolfdog list are totally at odds with > Kerwood's position I am now being flamed. No such thing as "wild" genes. I > think the point I tried to make is obvious but I obviously didn't state it > correctly -- is there a scientific term for this? Are there any studies that > would actually support our view? I think you may have to formulate it differently. I doubt there are any genes in wild wolves which cannot also be found somewhere in domestic dogs. It is not the presence or absence of specific genes, but the way they are combined into a functional genome, which is rather different in the average wolf from what you may encounter in the average dog. The differences are, however, of a gradual and quantitative nature; and there is wide variation among different sorts of dog in the extent to which they have departed from the wolf pattern. There is also, of course, wide variation among different wolf populations in the same respect. Not all wolves are primarily large-ungulate predators; and not all wolves live in large, hierarchically organized packs, in which highly developed dominance behavior is a key element in reproductive strategy. I agree that wolves (and high-percentage wolf hybrids) are not "pets" and that average persons should be strongly discouraged from trying to keep them. Many people who acquire purported wolf hybrids do so for sadly mistaken reasons. I am repelled, however, by categorical approaches to issues of this kind. Some people are certainly able to keep wolves and/or hybrids in a responsible way. I know specific instances of this. I am also not comfortable with the widespread idea that caring for any kind of wild animals should be restricted to institutional scientists. Even though I myself have been an institutional scientist for most of my life, I object to a certain "scientific snobbery" which I often detect in such efforts. If such rules had been in effect back then, Konrad Lorenz would never have been able to make the observations and experiments which led to his extraordinary 1935 paper "Der Kumpan in der Umwelt des Vogels" ... and I would never have been able to experiment with wild birds and mammals in the ways which eventually led me to become a postdoctoral scholar at Konrad's institute . If we are honest we will have to admit that amateurs, unencumbered by notions of current scientific orthodoxy, may sometimes have novel and useful insights to offer; and I do not agree with any regimentation of animal care and interaction which would prevent those experiences from happening. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 2-NOV-2004 05:17:47.61 To: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes I just meant that there are innate behaviors that wolves, foxes and coyotes have that make them not good pets. Vivian and I hear a lot from people who think that just because you get a wolf, coyote, fox from the time it is a puppy, if you feed it dog food and raise it like a dog, it will behave like a dog. We have a difficult time trying to explain the resons that is not true. This is something that I have been trying to write for my web site for the last year and haven't gotten it done, because I have a difficult time putting my thoughts into words. People breeding coyotes, wolves, and foxes to sell for pets is a very big problem. As usual, it is the animals that end up suffering. CeAnn --- John Burchard wrote: > > > All animals, even domestic ones, have innate > behaviors. ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 2-NOV-2004 05:29:57.80 To: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: 'Wild Genes' --- John Burchard wrote: > > I have to say that my own personal experience with > wolves doesn't entirely > support so strict an interpretation. I have known > wolves, taken from the wild > at five to eight weeks of age, which became quite > reasonably "tame." John, I get most of my coyotes from the wild at about seven weeks of age. Most of them become reasonably socialized to a few humans. However, I do start the socialization as if they are much younger, sleeping with them and treating them as if they were just a few days old. I do more socialization than taming. I do know that one does support the other. CeAnn ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 2-NOV-2004 06:11:40.88 To: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes --- John Burchard wrote: . Some > people are certainly able to keep wolves and/or > hybrids in a responsible way. I > know specific instances of this. These people are few and far between and are not the people that Vivian and I are dealing with on a regular basis. As rescue and educational facilities, we are dealing with people who got their wolves, coyotes and foxes for the wrong reasons or for the right reasons and then could not handle the differances in the behaviors that they start seeing at about eight months of age. It is very sad when you have to tell some of these people that there isn't room for their beloved animal anywhere and that the best solution is to euthanize. You also hear this statement a lot. " I have punished him/her over and over again and he/she still pees on my carpet, growls at me, snaps at me, and hides under the bed and when I try to get them out from under the bed, they bite me." Very seldom, do people ask for help ahead of time and ask about what they should expect from these animals as far as their behaviors go. There are a few people like that, but they are few and far between. I am always willing to help these people to keep their animals. I worked with one woman for almost a year by phone, long distance. Her husband had brought her a coyote puppy that he found in the woods. She dearly loves this animal and is committed to giving him the best home possible for his lifetime. She has had him now, for seven years. It has cost her thousands of dollars and lots of stress. At one time, he had to come here for six months until licenseing could be straightened out. He had to have a new pen. He bit her when he was about five months old and everyone she consulted reccomended that he be euthanized. She made the commitment to him and she has stuck to that commitment. She is an exception to what I usually deal with. CeAnn ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From: IN%"csmith35@nycap.rr.com" "Cynthia Smith" 2-NOV-2004 06:45:56.81 To: IN%"Jane.Malcolm@dpi.vic.gov.au", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Tail docking of cattle This publication was compiled in 2002 so it would need to be updated for the last several years. It does contain a fair number of references on tail docking and some discussion on tail docking in the introduction. If you view the document as one large file you can do a find command and search on "dock" or "docked" or "docking." Information Resources on the Care and Welfare of Dairy Cattle 1996-2002 http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/dairy/dairy2.htm Cynthia Smith, M.S. Technical Information Specialist USDA/ARS/NAL Animal Welfare Information Center www.nal.usda.gov/awic ----- Original Message ----- From: Jane.Malcolm@dpi.vic.gov.au To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 11:08 PM Subject: Tail docking of cattle Can anyone help me with information on tail docking of cattle - impact on welfare? Just want to make sure I don't miss anything useful. Thanks, Jane Malcolm From: IN%"Wendy@southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk" "WendyHanson" 2-NOV-2004 07:13:23.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes You also hear this statement a lot. " I have punished him/her over and over again and he/she still pees on my carpet, growls at me, snaps at me, and hides under the bed and when I try to get them out from under the bed, they bite me." Going off topic a bit [sorry] but surely it is partly because of punishment that the animal pees on the carpet and growls, snaps and hides under the bed. Even the most domesticated of dogs would do this if they were inappropriately punished. Wendy Hanson Dip. ACP{NOCN} Dip.Nutri.Med{RC} www.southeastdog.freeserve.co.uk ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cecilia Lambert" To: "John Burchard" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 12:11 PM Subject: Re: "Wild" Genes > > --- John Burchard wrote: > > . Some > > people are certainly able to keep wolves and/or > > hybrids in a responsible way. I > > know specific instances of this. > > These people are few and far between and are not the > people that Vivian and I are dealing with on a regular > basis. > > As rescue and educational facilities, we are dealing > with people who got their wolves, coyotes and foxes > for the wrong reasons or for the right reasons and > then could not handle the differances in the behaviors > that they start seeing at about eight months of age. > It is very sad when you have to tell some of these > people that there isn't room for their beloved animal > anywhere and that the best solution is to euthanize. > > You also hear this statement a lot. " I have punished > him/her over and over again and he/she still pees on > my carpet, growls at me, snaps at me, and hides under > the bed and when I try to get them out from under the > bed, they bite me." > > Very seldom, do people ask for help ahead of time and > ask about what they should expect from these animals > as far as their behaviors go. There are a few people > like that, but they are few and far between. I am > always willing to help these people to keep their > animals. > > I worked with one woman for almost a year by phone, > long distance. Her husband had brought her a coyote > puppy that he found in the woods. She dearly loves > this animal and is committed to giving him the best > home possible for his lifetime. She has had him now, > for seven years. It has cost her thousands of dollars > and lots of stress. At one time, he had to come here > for six months until licenseing could be straightened > out. He had to have a new pen. > He bit her when he was about five months old and > everyone she consulted reccomended that he be > euthanized. She made the commitment to him and she > has stuck to that commitment. She is an exception to > what I usually deal with. > CeAnn > > > ===== > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.WolfPark.org/ICRC > > > > __________________________________ > Do you Yahoo!? > Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. > www.yahoo.com From: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab" 2-NOV-2004 17:23:21.90 To: IN%"csmith35@nycap.rr.com" "Cynthia Smith", IN%"Jane.Malcolm@dpi.vic.gov.au", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Tail docking of cattle Two reviews specifically on tail docking of cattle have also been published since 2002. They appear to include most of the pertinent references and may be found at: Ruegg P. Tail docking and animal welfare. Bov Pract. 2004; 38(1):24-8. Stull CL, Payne MA, Berry SL, Hullinger PJ. Evaluation of the scientific justification for tail docking in dairy cattle. J Am Vet Med Assoc. 2002 May 1;220(9):1298-303. Hope this helps. Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Assistant Director, Professional and Public Affairs Communications Division American Veterinary Medical Association 1931 North Meacham Rd, Suite 100 Schaumburg, Illinois 60173 (847) 925-8070, ext 6618 (847) 925-1329 (fax) ggolab@avma.org www.avma.org -----Original Message----- From: Cynthia Smith [mailto:csmith35@nycap.rr.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 02, 2004 6:45 AM To: Jane.Malcolm@dpi.vic.gov.au; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Tail docking of cattle This publication was compiled in 2002 so it would need to be updated for the last several years. It does contain a fair number of references on tail docking and some discussion on tail docking in the introduction. If you view the document as one large file you can do a find command and search on "dock" or "docked" or "docking." Information Resources on the Care and Welfare of Dairy Cattle 1996-2002 http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/dairy/dairy2.htm Cynthia Smith, M.S. Technical Information Specialist USDA/ARS/NAL Animal Welfare Information Center www.nal.usda.gov/awic ----- Original Message ----- From: Jane.Malcolm@dpi.vic.gov.au To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Monday, November 01, 2004 11:08 PM Subject: Tail docking of cattle Can anyone help me with information on tail docking of cattle - impact on welfare? Just want to make sure I don't miss anything useful. Thanks, Jane Malcolm From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 3-NOV-2004 04:03:40.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes Jenny Haskins Family Dog Training Coffs Harbour, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "Cecilia Lambert" To: "John Burchard" ; Sent: Tuesday, 2 November 2004 11:11 PM Subject: Re: "Wild" Genes > You also hear this statement a lot. " I have punished > him/her over and over again and he/she still pees on > my carpet, growls at me, snaps at me, and hides under > the bed and when I try to get them out from under the > bed, they bite me." > CeAnn You hear this a lot from owners of domestic dogs too!! I was consulted some time ago by a woman who told me her dog was biting her -- on questioning I found the dog was biting when she tried to drag it out from under the bed to put its e-collar on. Simple advice -- throw away the e-collar -- they are illegal here anyway, and don't drag the dog out from under the bed. Jenny From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 3-NOV-2004 05:55:49.89 To: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes Sometimes, the solution is so simple. This year, I had a very shy coyote puppy. Houdini got behind the refrgirator and wouldn't come out. I was trying everything. He was sooo afraid , that he wouldn't even take food from my had. Finally, I talked to Erich klinghammer and he told me to throw some meat behind the refrigerator and spend as much time near the pup as I could. That solution was so simple. It was a "duhh" moment for me. Houdini, now comes in and out of the house with a couple of my other coyotes. He is still shy and will only take food from my hand, if I stand with my back to him and hold out my hand behind my back. We are still working on our relationship. --- Jenny Haskins wrote: > > Jenny Haskins > Family Dog Training > Coffs Harbour, Australia > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Cecilia Lambert" > To: "John Burchard" ; > > Sent: Tuesday, 2 November 2004 11:11 PM > Subject: Re: "Wild" Genes > > > > > You also hear this statement a lot. " I have > punished > > him/her over and over again and he/she still pees > on > > my carpet, growls at me, snaps at me, and hides > under > > the bed and when I try to get them out from under > the > > bed, they bite me." > > CeAnn > > You hear this a lot from owners of domestic dogs > too!! > > I was consulted some time ago by a woman who told me > her dog was biting > her -- on questioning I found the dog was biting > when she tried to drag it > out from under the bed to put its e-collar on. > Simple advice -- throw away > the e-collar -- they are illegal here anyway, and > don't drag the dog out > from under the bed. > > Jenny > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Check out the new Yahoo! Front Page. www.yahoo.com From: IN%"SamB247@aol.com" 3-NOV-2004 12:08:15.11 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com", IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes << He is still shy and will only take food from my hand, if I stand with my back to him and hold out my hand behind my back. We are still working on our relationship. >> I am a novice compared to you guys/gals but this is exactly what I am doing with a "ferel" dog I rescued from a swamp area. She would not come to me, however, if I give her a treat or df while NOT facing her, ABSOLUTELY NO EYE CONTACT, she will take food from my hand. Yes, I still have all 5 fingers & digits. We have actually brought her home to our 10 acres where she runs loose among our fosters. No problems, no fights. She will actually handle eye contact from me, not my wife, and will come to me as I sit on the steps, breaking up small pieces of dog biscuits. She will take them from me, looking me straight in the eye. I do not know if this was correct but it is working. She is a Chow. Sam Bailey Pontchartrain Humane Society, Ms, USA From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 3-NOV-2004 16:22:50.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: Tail docking of cattle Jane, Here are some recent references on tail-docking of dairy cattle. Marlene Halverson Return-path: Recently, two peer-reviewed scientific papers have reviewed the studies and concluded that there are no apparent animal health, welfare, or human health justifications to support the practice of tail docking (P. Ruegg, 2004, The Bovine Practitioner. Tail docking and animal welfare. 38(1):24-28; Stull et al., 2002, Journal of the American Veterinary Medicine Association, Evaluation of the scientific justification for tail docking in dairy cattle. 220(9):1298-1303). I have both of these papers if you need copies. ________________________________ From: Rexxie1@aol.com [mailto:Rexxie1@aol.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 03, 2004 4:55 PM To: Cathy Liss Subject: Fwd: Tail docking of cattle Hi, CAthy, Do you have a reference to the latest info on this issue -- Carolyn Stull's work maybe? Thanks, Marlene From: IN%"k9.college_Napier@xtra.co.nz" "John R lane" 3-NOV-2004 22:19:40.91 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: select committee calls for submissions on tail docking bill The following forward is for the benifit of any NZers and any others on the list interested in putting in submissions to the select committee on this bill. Regards John L. New Zealand. --- In obedienceNZ@yahoogroups.com, "Philip Lyth" wrote: The Government Administration select committee today called for submissions on the tail docking bill, and set a closing date of Monday 28 February 2005. See http://publications.clerk.parliament.govt.nz.clients.intergen.net.nz/ BillsBeforeSelectCommittees.aspx (remove any line-break in this and next URL) For information on how to make a submission, go to http://www.clerk.parliament.govt.nz/Publications/Other/ then click on 'Making a submission to a Parliamentary select committee' about halfway down the page. 20 copies of your submission are required, to be sent to Clerk of the Committee, Government Administration Select Committee, Select Committee Office, Parliament Buildings, WELLINGTON The Hansard report of the debate on 20 Oct is at: http://www.clerk.parliament.govt.nz/Content/Hansard/Final/FINAL_2004_ 1 0_20.htm#_Toc87080106 I am happy to receive phone calls and private emails at my Yahoo address phone calls, and I will respond as soon as priorities permit. Philip Lyth philiplyth@y... + 64 4 470 6655 +64 21 114 3333 Permission is granted to circulate this email provided it is passed on in full, including this line and the contact details. --- End forwarded message --- From: IN%"GGolab@avma.org" "Dr. Gail Golab" 3-NOV-2004 22:34:19.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Definitions of Animal Cruelty, Animal Abuse, and Animal Neglect Hello everyone, I'm interested in tracking down established (recognizing that may be an optimistic word) definitions of "animal cruelty," "animal abuse," and "animal neglect"? Off and on, we've had discussions on this issue at the AVMA and it's come up once again in two different contexts. Any referrals to appropriate thoughtful references would be very much appreciated. Regards, Gail C. Golab, PhD, DVM Assistant Director, Professional and Public Affairs Communications Division American Veterinary Medical Association 1931 North Meacham Rd, Suite 100 Schaumburg, Illinois 60173 (847) 925-8070, ext 6618 (847) 925-1329 (fax) ggolab@avma.org www.avma.org From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 4-NOV-2004 07:57:49.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes Cecilia Lambert wrote: > > I just meant that there are innate behaviors that > wolves, foxes and coyotes have that make them not good > pets. Vivian and I hear a lot from people who think > that just because you get a wolf, coyote, fox from the > time it is a puppy, if you feed it dog food and raise > it like a dog, it will behave like a dog. We have a > difficult time trying to explain the resons that is > not true. This is something that I have been trying to > write for my web site for the last year and haven't > gotten it done, because I have a difficult time > putting my thoughts into words. People breeding > coyotes, wolves, and foxes to sell for pets is a very > big problem. As usual, it is the animals that end up > suffering. As usual :-( I think you need to point out that the wild animals have a somewhat different set of innate behaviors from domesticated ones, and also that innate behavior is much more powerful than most people think. It is so even in humans, but we are so familiar with our own innate behavior that we generally manage to overlook it altogether, even when ideology does not still further cloud our vision. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 4-NOV-2004 07:58:17.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: "Wild" Genes Cecilia Lambert wrote: > > --- John Burchard wrote: > > . Some > > people are certainly able to keep wolves and/or > > hybrids in a responsible way. I > > know specific instances of this. > > These people are few and far between and are not the > people that Vivian and I are dealing with on a regular > basis. > > As rescue and educational facilities, we are dealing > with people who got their wolves, coyotes and foxes > for the wrong reasons or for the right reasons and > then could not handle the differances in the behaviors > that they start seeing at about eight months of age. > It is very sad when you have to tell some of these > people that there isn't room for their beloved animal > anywhere and that the best solution is to euthanize. > > You also hear this statement a lot. " I have punished > him/her over and over again and he/she still pees on > my carpet, growls at me, snaps at me, and hides under > the bed and when I try to get them out from under the > bed, they bite me." Aaargh. So predictable. That does happen often enough with dogs too ... the "canine aggression" lists are a continuous litany of similar stories :-( Punishment doesn't work very well with dogs either ... it's just that many dogs are tractable enough and tolerant enough that people don't notice it ... > Very seldom, do people ask for help ahead of time and > ask about what they should expect from these animals > as far as their behaviors go. There are a few people > like that, but they are few and far between. I am > always willing to help these people to keep their > animals. > > I worked with one woman for almost a year by phone, > long distance. Her husband had brought her a coyote > puppy that he found in the woods. She dearly loves > this animal and is committed to giving him the best > home possible for his lifetime. She has had him now, > for seven years. It has cost her thousands of dollars > and lots of stress. At one time, he had to come here > for six months until licenseing could be straightened > out. He had to have a new pen. > He bit her when he was about five months old and > everyone she consulted reccomended that he be > euthanized. She made the commitment to him and she > has stuck to that commitment. She is an exception to > what I usually deal with. I can believe that. I did not intend to belittle the problems that you and Vivian are dealing with. I see enough similar ones even with domestic dogs. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 4-NOV-2004 08:10:13.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: 'Wild Genes' Cecilia Lambert wrote: > > --- John Burchard wrote: > > > > > I have to say that my own personal experience with > > wolves doesn't entirely > > support so strict an interpretation. I have known > > wolves, taken from the wild > > at five to eight weeks of age, which became quite > > reasonably "tame." > > John, > I get most of my coyotes from the wild at about > seven weeks of age. Most of them become reasonably > socialized to a few humans. However, I do start the > socialization as if they are much younger, sleeping > with them and treating them as if they were just a few > days old. > I do more socialization than taming. I do know that > one does support the other. I haven't done any systematic experimentation - all my wolf experiences, save one (our handreared Lulu), were fortuitous and more or less unplanned - but strongly suspect that if you socialize a wolf or coyote pup to one person, that pup will later be very selective in whom it will approach, whereas if you socialize from the beginning to a larger circle of people, the pup may end up more tolerant of multiple contacts. The behavior of Lulu in that respect was very interesting. She grew up in a household with a variety of animals - several Salukis, several cats, a rescue Shih Tzu, a free flying Sulfur Crested Cockatoo, some Rose-ringed Parakeets mostly in cages but some free flying, and several falcons on perches in the back yard. Human visitors were frequent and varied. As an adult, her behavior toward unfamiliar humans at home and in the desert was completely different. If we had guests at home she hadn't met, she would greet them effusively, jumping into their lap and licking their ears (some of my distinguished Arab colleagues found that a bit, er, startling ). If we met a stranger while out in the desert, she would make a quarter-mile detour around the unfamiliar person. If I was talking to a Bedouin shepherd, Lulu might be seen through binoculars, peering over the top of a distant sand dune, ears flattened and not showing against the sky. She would materialize again when I had moved on to a safe distance from the stranger. If however we made camp with Bedouin friends, the fact of our making camp together instantly elevated them to the status of friend and she was not in the least shy of them under those circumstances. Lulu was once AWOL for more than a week in a major European city. She had panicked while being transferred from her traveling crate to an enclosure, and disappeared into the darkness. Ten days later, having advertised in the paper (naturally not "wolf lost in your fair city" ) we received a phone call from a lady who operated a kiosk near the University, near an open-space park where many students ate their lunches. It seems Lulu had been mooching sandwiches from the students, and had struck up a friendship with the kiosk lady, who had been feeding her. Everyone described her as "very sweet" (nobody suspected she was a wolf ...). I walked down to the University, saw her, called her, and she ran and jumped into my arms, very glad indeed to see me. It seems however that in best canine-commensal style she had quickly figured out how to manipulate the students and the kiosk lady to her own advantage ... John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"ndiehl@psu.edu" "Nancy Diehl" 5-NOV-2004 07:38:12.95 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology (E-mail)" CC: Subj: page number in ISAE proceedings Sorry to bother the list with this, but I need some information. My graduate student presented a paper at the ISAE meeting in Helsinki this summer. I could not attend. Could anyone please tell me the page number for this abstract? it would help me out tremendously. Kress, S., N.K. Diehl, H. Harpster, G. Varga, S. Ralston. 2004. "Yearling Horse Ingestive Behavior and Social Interactions in Three Different Concentrate Feeding Systems." thanks, Nancy Diehl From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 10-NOV-2004 06:02:44.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Lloyd Morgan and Jeffrey Masson Dear all, Is there any good review paper on different approaches to the study of animal behaviour, critically discussing approaches ranging from radical behaviorism to ethology to bestselling authors on animal anecdotes? Your suggestions are most welcome! Best wishes Anna O Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 11-NOV-2004 03:06:20.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: 2nd Call for papers and update A note to all working in the science of animal behaviour problems - you do not need to be a vet or working with cats and dogs to submit. A reminder that the deadline for submission of papers and posters for the 2005 IVBM as well as the AVSAB and ACVB sessions is December 1st 2005 and details are posted on the ACVB website at _www.dacvb.org_ (http://www.dacvb.org) . This 5th IVBM will be held at the Minneapolis Marriott City Center from July 14-16. The first two days will be comprised of the IVBM papers and posters and the third day will be the ACVB/AVSAB papers. Please note that all papers and posters that you would want considered for either meeting should be sent to the IVBM only. All papers will be graded by the IVBM review committee and accepted papers and posters for both the IVBM and AVSAB/ACVB will be sessions will be announced by mid January. All papers will be published in the conference proceedings and all presenters will receive free registration for the full 3 day meeting. Accepted papers will also be reviewed for publication in a special issue of Applied Animal Behavior Science. Poster presenters will receive free proceedings. Should sufficient funds be available they will also receive a reduced registration fee. Speakers will be responsible for their own expenses but are encouraged to obtain sponsorship. Program details and registration information will be posted on the ACVB website and an announcement made when these details are finalized. Registration and rooms will be available through the AVMA. For those wishing to attend the AVSAB/ACVB session on July 16 only, registration details will be published in an upcoming AVSAB newsletter. FYI, the IVBM immediately precedes the 2005 AVMA which is a joint conference this year with the WVMA. There will be 2 full days of behavior sessions with 16 international speakers on July 17 and 18 so please consider attending both the IVBM and the AVMA/WVMA conference. Sponsorship. If you know of indifiduals or companies who might wish to sponsor this meeting please contact John Cirabassi _drjdvm@MSN.COM_ (mailto:drjdvm@MSN.COM) who can provide you with a copy of the sponsorship documents. Special thanks to Lilly, Premier and Campbell Pet Products who have already committed as sponsors. AWARDS In addition to the AVSAB student paper and award (to be presented July 16) - see the avsab website at _www.avma.org/avsab_ (http://www.avma.org/avsab) for details, there are two monetary awards that have been announced for papers that are selected for either the IVBM or ACVB/AVSAB sessions. SVBT TECHNICIAN AWARD The Society of Veterinary Behavior Technicians is proud to offer up to $1000 in travel expenses to a presenter of a technician paper accepted for either the International Veterinary Behavior Meeting or American College of Veterinary Behavior/American Veterinary Society of Animal Behavior sessions. If there is more than one paper accepted then the highest graded paper will be granted the award. To qualify for the award you must be a graduate of an AVMA accredited program in Veterinary Technology or credentialed as a veterinary technician by your state or province. RK ANDERSON / ACVB RESIDENT AWARD The ACVB and Premier Pet Products are pleased to announce the RK ANDERSON AWARD in the amount of $1500 for an ACVB resident (or a veterinarian in an approved ACVB non-conforming residency program) whose paper is accepted for the IVBM or ACVB/AVSAB sessions. If there is more than one paper accepted then the highest graded paper will be granted the award.