From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin" 31-OCT-1996 11:12:22.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Ruth Newberry Dear All, 3-D I am trying to contact Ruth Newberry to discuss some matters of turkey behaviour. I have tried the e-mail address listed in the 1995 ISAE membership directory (newberry@bcrsag.agr.ca) but the message is being returned. Does anyone know of a more recent e-mail address for Ruth? My thanks in anticipation, Chris Sherwin University of Bristol From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 31-OCT-1996 13:11:02.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Oops....More fish! Sorry about the last message I sent with no text in it. I was trying to type with my nose but unfortunately I sneezed! I was just going to make the comment that, based on what several people said about bans on livebaiting, it seems more likely that it will be banned to preserve good sport for anglers (by stopping spread of disease or having good fishing waters choked by swarms of uninteresting minnows), than out of concern for the plight of a small, unimportant fish impaled alive on a hook and dumped into the water to await the arrival of a predator. Just seems ironic, that's all. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"TWIDOWSKI@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "TINA WIDOWSKI" 31-OCT-1996 14:13:57.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: European Welfare Laws Dear All: I would like to thank all of the people who took the time to respond to my request for information about European Animal Welfare Laws. Several others requested that I share the information that I received. I have attempted to condense the answers and include mainly those that had an official address or organization that could be contacted for publications: "Operations on farm animals: a guide to legislation" published by MAFF in 1991. Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, UK An overview of European legislation concerning the use of animals for research is found in Jann Hau & Per Svendsen (eds.): Laboratory Animal Science, Vol I: Animal Selection and Handling of Animals in Biomedical Research, CRC Press, Boca Raton, U.S.A., 1994. The Danish Act on the Protection of Animals has been translated to English and may be obtained from Danish Animal Welfare Society, Alhambravej 15, DK-1826 Frederiksberg C, Denmark, fax +45 33251460 Glenn Schmidt of Ohio State University recently wrote a fairly comprehensive report entitled "Animal Welfare Legislation in Northern European Countries", for the American Farm Bureau Federation, but I don't believe that it was ever officially published. I think that he would be happy to supply copies, however--his address is Ohio State University, 2029 Fyfe Rd, Columbus, OH 43210 (email: schmidt.18@OSU.edu) Algers, B. 1994. Farm animal welfare-A challenge to Swedish agriculture. In: Farm Animal Welfare. Past, present and future. Workshop proceedings. June 3&4, 1994, Univesity of Guelph, Ontario. p 56-68. The present status of the European legislation could be obtained from the EEC Direction Generale de l'Agriculture (DGVI) Rue de la Loi 120 BRUSSELS. "Summary of legislation relative to animal welfare at the level of the European Community and the Council of Europe". This available from Eurogroup for Animal Welfare, 17 Square Marie Louise, Bte 6, B-1040, Brussels, Belgium. tel (02) 231 1388 fax:(02)230 1700. You can ask for a list of Laws and Royal Decrees in Belgium at the address below; it's the secretariat of the Animal Welfare Council at the Ministry of Agriculture. : Mrs Lise Parent in Dutch: in French: Raad voor Dierenwelzijn Conseil du Bien-etre des Animaux Ministerie van Landbouw Ministere de l'Agriculture WTC III 5e verd. WTCIII 5eme etage Bureau 37 Bureau 37 Simon Bolivarlaan 30 Avenue Simon Bolivar, 30 B-1000 Brussel B-1000 Bruxelles English translation of the German Welfare Act and for the Regulatin for the Keeping of Calves can be obtained from: Bundesminsterium fuer Ernaehrung, Landwirtschaft und Forsten Tierschutzrefat Postfach D-53107 Bonn or FAX +49 (0)228 529 4262 Thanks again to all who replied, Tina Widowski From: IN%"TWIDOWSKI@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "TINA WIDOWSKI" 31-OCT-1996 14:20:33.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Patrick Mateo Please contact me regarding your order fr ISAE96 Proceedings Tina Widowski twidowski@aps.uoguelph.ca From: IN%"MAPPLEBY@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 1-NOV-1996 03:39:17.17 To: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Ruth Newberry Chris Ruth Newberry is now at Washington State University: rnewberry@wsu.edu Mike From: IN%"lhenley@MUW.Edu" "Lani Lyman-Henley" 1-NOV-1996 08:37:14.43 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Oops....More fish! Ok, I can't help but be curious after all this talk about US bans on livebaiting that I have *never* seen evidence of- WHERE are these bans active? It must be by state, since in both Tennessee and Mississippi live minnows are sold by the zillion in bait stores, providing anglers with bait for crappie & bass and providing me lots of snake, turtle, & 'gator food. *********************************************************************** Lani Lyman-Henley, PhD email: lhenley@MUW.edu Division of Science & Math phone: (601) 329-7245 (office) Mississippi University for Women P.O.Box W 100 Columbus, MS 39701 FAX: (601) 329-7238 WWW: http://www.msstate.edu/Dept/Psychology/lplh.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "What you see with your eyes shut is what counts." -Sioux Medicine Man Lame Deer *********************************************************************** From: IN%"lhenley@MUW.Edu" "Lani Lyman-Henley" 1-NOV-1996 08:40:25.72 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Oops....More fish! Ok, I can't help but be curious after all this talk about US bans on livebaiting that I have *never* seen evidence of- WHERE are these bans active? It must be by state, since in both Tennessee and Mississippi live minnows are sold by the zillion in bait stores, providing anglers with bait for crappie & bass and providing me lots of snake, turtle, & 'gator food. *********************************************************************** Lani Lyman-Henley, PhD email: lhenley@MUW.edu Division of Science & Math phone: (601) 329-7245 (office) Mississippi University for Women P.O.Box W 100 Columbus, MS 39701 FAX: (601) 329-7238 WWW: http://www.msstate.edu/Dept/Psychology/lplh.html ----------------------------------------------------------------------- "What you see with your eyes shut is what counts." -Sioux Medicine Man Lame Deer *********************************************************************** From: IN%"kalvoda@imc.cas.cz" 1-NOV-1996 09:11:04.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: seeking employment SEEKING EMPLOYMENT Name: Jiri Siler, MSc (Dipl. Ing.) Age: 34 Education: University of Agriculture, Prague Nationality: Czech Languages: Czech, fluent English and Russian, basic German Relocating from Prague, Czech Republic to Saskatoon, Canada, January 1st, 1997 for family reasons. Presently employed at the Research Institute of Animal Production, Ethology Group, Prague, involved in field and laboratory behavioral and physiological studies of red deer and fallow deer, with Ludek Bartos. (Reference .) Extensive experience (10 years) in handling animals, especially deer, and in deer farming. Seeking any work in related field, particularly eager to work directly with animals. Please direct responses to . Would be very grateful for any assistance in finding such work. From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 1-NOV-1996 11:23:24.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Oops....the cow got in the mincing machine! (fwd) >>>On friday 01 November Mike Appleby wrote:<<< >Jon >Here's a question. When you attach a picture to your signature, do >you (a) expect it to be comprehensible to all the recipients, (b) only >want it to be read by recipients with machines exactly like yours or >(c) not give a tinker's who knows what you're talking about? >I spent some time making your Hallowe'en pictures sensible (I think >the eighth font I tried worked) and it was only then that I finally >realised what your Holy Cow was about. Mind you, with hindsight it >was worth the effort. Jon Replies: Sorry Mike. I suppose whether you see things the same as me depends on how many characters your terminal displays on a line and whether it uses a font which allocates the same width to each character. I hope most people got nice Halloween pix rather than a pile of muddled ascii. In reply to (c), I like people to understand what I'm talking about, but don't give a tinker's whether they agree or not ;-) Jon ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- All the best, Mike P.S. It was good to meet you in Saskatoon. From: IN%"m-35500@mailbox.swipnet.se" "Maud =?UNKNOWN?Q?Gr=F6nberger?=" 2-NOV-1996 13:01:17.98 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Herding Hi! In the beginning of the 70's, a study was made by Niko Tinbergen about which dog that still had the original wolfbehavior. I think this was done at Oxford University, possibly with the help of someone named Fisher. N.T. choosed the Border Collie for this study. A TV-program, based on the study, was made called "Man bites Dog". Does anyone knows where to get hold of this work (the study)? Does anyone knows of similar studies, or studies of dogs/wolfpack's way of hunting compared with Man's way of hunting? Does anyone knows where to find data on "interspecific communication" between Man/dog, dog/sheep, wolf/caribou and so on? You may very well send any answers directly to me. Thanks in advance. Maud Gronberger, m-35500@mailbox.swipnet.se From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 4-NOV-1996 02:45:06.38 To: IN%"TWIDOWSKI@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "TINA WIDOWSKI" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: European Welfare Laws Laws in Belgium: 1- One small error: the christian name of our new secretary. It's LIEVE and not LISE. My fault (I can hear you! No, I never had a girl friend called Lise...). 2- Belgian laws: They are written in Dutch and in French. Sorry, but we do not have the logistics for translation in other languages. Regards, FOO From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 4-NOV-1996 02:46:52.14 To: IN%"TWIDOWSKI@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "TINA WIDOWSKI" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: European Welfare Laws Laws in Belgium: 1- One small error: the christian name of our new secretary. It's LIEVE and not LISE. My fault (I can hear you! No, I never had a girl friend called Lise...). 2- Belgian laws: They are written in Dutch and in French. Sorry, but we do not have the logistics for translation in other languages. Regards, FOO From: IN%"D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk" "D.Goodwin" 4-NOV-1996 04:27:48.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Petra Mertens PLease does anyone know Petra's email address? many thanks Debbie Goodwin D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk From: IN%"Anna.Olsson@sjv.se" 4-NOV-1996 09:11:16.73 To: IN%"m-35500@mailbox.swipnet.se", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: herding etc This is a humble request for all who have information to Maud Gronberger = about hunting to reply to the net - there are others interested as well! Anna Olsson Swedish Board of Agriculture Division for Animal Production and Management S-551 82 Jonkoping Sweden e-mail Anna.Olsson@sjv.se tel +46-36-155000 fax +46-36-308182 From: IN%"vuzv1@ms.anet.cz" "Marek Spinka" 5-NOV-1996 03:31:39.15 To: IN%"iduncan@aps.uoguelph.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sow breeds for group housing Dear Ian, dear everybody, A small piece of information concerning the breeds suitable for loose housing during farrowing and lactation. I visited several farmers in Sweden last year who employ the indoor group housing systems for lactating sows. They usually have Landrace sows as a starting point, but they are switching to crosses with Yorkshire and/or Hampshire now as these breeds seem to have maternal abilities better suited for this system. All the best, Marek From: IN%"j.b.i.rousseau@med.ruu.nl" 5-NOV-1996 10:12:55.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Abstracts/Proceedings Measuring Behaviour '96 Workshop Measuring Behavior '96 Workshop Proceedings From 16-18 October, Measuring Behavior '96, the international workshop on methods and techniques in behavioral research, was held in Utrecht, The Netherlands. The proceedings of the meeting are now available on the world wide web. These include the abstracts of all oral papers and posters, as well as short descriptions of the instruments and computer programs demonstrated during the meeting. The address is http://www.diva.nl/noldus/mb96.html. Jacob Rousseau, Member of the local organizing committee. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jacob Rousseau, Voice : 31-30-2538831 Rudolf Magnus Institute for Neurosciences, Fax : 31-30-2539032 Dept. of Medical Pharmacology, E-mail: rousseau@med.ruu.nl Utrecht University, Stratenum, Universiteitsweg 100, 3584 CG Utrecht. The Netherlands. ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"m.mendl@sac005.ed.sac.ac.uk" "Mike Mendl" 6-NOV-1996 08:37:36.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Applied Animal Behaviour Science APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENCE SPECIAL OFFER Applied Animal Behaviour Science Special Subscription Rate for ISAE members For the third year running, ISAE has made an agreement with Elsevier Publishers for ISAE members to be able to receive the journal Applied Animal Behaviour Science at a reduced subscription rate. Following negotiations with Elsevier, the 1997 rate is 75-00 UK pounds sterling, which is 45 pounds cheaper than the 1996 rate. To subscribe to this offer, you must be a member of the International Society for Applied Ethology (one of many good reasons to join), and you must send your subscription (in UK pounds sterling) to the ISAE membership secretary: Dr Mark Rutter, IGER, North Wyke, Okehampton, Devon, EX20 2SB, UK. email: isae.membership@bbsrc.ac.uk Payment methods: UK members: cheque from a UK bank payable to 'ISAE' EU members: eurocheque or girocheque in UK pounds payable to 'ISAE' Others: credit card quoting your name (as it appears on the card), card number, expiry date, card holder's registered address. (we cannot accept American Express or Diners Club) Due to problems in the past, we regret that we are no longer able to accept bank or giro transfers. Mike Mendl, ISAE Treasurer Dr Mike Mendl, Genetics and Behavioural Sciences Dept, SAC-Edinburgh, Bush Estate, Penicuik, EH26 0QE, UK tel: (+44) 131 535 3214 fax: (+44) 131 535 3121 From: IN%"dwa@ayrcoll.ac.uk" "David W Allan" 6-NOV-1996 13:34:23.45 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PATTERN RECOGNITION -"if then else" ability Are dogs capable of applying "if then else" reasoning? As part of a project I require a dog to carry out a number of mentally challenging exercises but I am not sure whether dogs have the cognitive ability to solve the problem. Perhaps some of you can, from your studies, supply an answer. The problem in question involves pattern recognition. The dog is asked to separate round and square shapes, to pick up each in turn and place them in separate containers. At present he will pick up the appropriate shape given the taught command but I am experiencing considerable difficulty in getting him to take the initiative when presented with a "free choice". This involves him making his own decision on which shape to pick up and then to place it in the appropriate bin. Obviously he could be taught to complete the task using operant techniques but I wish to explore his cognitive abilities. Is there any evidence of dogs being able to deal with such abstract concepts? I you are unable to help but aware of colleagues who can I would appreciate if you would pass on my e-mail address. Regards David From: IN%"mplaurenson@ucdavis.edu" "Michele Laurenson" 6-NOV-1996 23:21:51.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: twitching I'm looking for information about horse twitching for a research paper. Specifically, why do people criticize the practice? Why should you not twitch a horse? What are the bad sides/cons? Are there any better alternatives? On the other note, what are the benefits, the pros? Why do people use it and how well does it work? I have found one, and only one, article in a Science magazine about twitching, but I need to write 4 pages about this topic!!! Are there better sources out there? Thanks! Michele Laurenson University of California at Davis From: IN%"rhb11@hermes.cam.ac.uk" 7-NOV-1996 09:09:58.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pdic Date: Thu, 7 Nov 1996 14:46:39 +0000 (GMT) =46rom: "Dr. Michael Meredith" X-Sender: mjm10@navy.csi.cam.ac.uk To: Jane Pridmore , rhb11@hermes.cam.ac.uk, pomare@hunterlink.net.au, brucek@NANDO.NET, EppersoW@MG.SDSTATE.EDU, cdrom@ukminfo.demon.co.uk Subject: News Release! MIME-Version: 1.0 from: ******************************************************************* * Pig Disease Information Centre * * Dept. of Clinical Veterinary Medicine * * Madingley Road, Cambridge, CB3 0ES, U.K. * * Internationalfax:+44-1223-330886, alternative:+44-1223-337610 * * Electronic mail: vet-pdic@lists.cam.ac.uk * * Web-site: http://www-pdic.vet.cam.ac.uk/ * * * ******************************************************************* Please copy this latest information about the PDIC web site to anyone who may be interested. Thanks! ***************************** PDIC GOES LIVE! ***************************** November 6th, 1996 An exciting new development! The Pig Disease Information Centre has launched the first web-site making up to date information relating to many aspects of pig diseases and breeding available twenty-four hours a day, seven days a week. Information can not only be viewed, but also printed out.There is a vast pool of knowledge and experience now at the fingertips of vets and pig specialists around the world. The website will grow constantly and draw contributors from around the world. WHAT INFORMATION IS AVAILABLE? =B7 Diseases information =B7 Breeding, genetics and infertility =B7 News items, both UK and International =B7 Search facilities =B7 a database of Internet information resources on pigs =B7 An up to date list of relevant books, videos and magazines =B7 Background information about PDIC people and services. =B7 Pig welfare (to be added in 1997) =B7 Discussion page for vets (to be added in 1997) This web-site is also an excellent =D2jumping off=D3 point to pig an= d veterinary information Internet sites around the world. Simply click on any description of more than 50 categorised sites and you will be connected to them in an instant! The URL (Internet address) of this site is: http://www-pdic.vet.cam.ac.uk/ NOTE: there is a hyphen (-) after www NOT a full stop (.) Access is also possible via on-line Intranet service providers like =D2Farming on-line=D3. =46or further information about this web-site please contact Dr Michael Meredith. Email: mjm10@hermes.cam.ac.uk U.K. fax: 01223 330886 International fax: +44 1223 330886 ----------oOo---------- =46orwarded by Harry Bradshaw Dr R. H. Bradshaw, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Madingley Road, Cambridge CB3 OES, UK. From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 7-NOV-1996 20:18:22.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: twitching In a message dated 96-11-07 00:55:56 EST, you write: >Specifically, why do people criticize the practice? Why should you not >twitch a horse? What are the bad sides/cons? Are there any better >alternatives? On the other note, what are the benefits, the pros? Why do >people use it and how well does it work? I have found one, and only one, >article in a Science magazine about twitching, but I need to write 4 pages >about this topic!!! The only printed reference I can give you is THE HORSE OWNER'S VETERINARY HANDBOOK, Giffin and Gore, Howell Book House. My own answers to your questions would be: People criticize the practice because it is commonly abused. With proper handling and training, a horse should not have to twitched for routine procedures like shoeing, worming, and clipping. But it happens alot. You should not twitch a horse for any lenghthy procedure, because the horse's nose will become numb and make the twitch ineffective before you finish the procedure. The upside of twitching is that can immobilize a horse for some short procedures that he wouldn't be expected to tolerate without being immobilized This reduces risk to his handlers. The downside is that it is painful and promotes distrust in the horse, which can also place his handlers at risk. Cheers, Margie . From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Simon Mills" 8-NOV-1996 07:46:12.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: measuring reciprocal interaction. I have a student doing some work on reciprocal and co-operative behaviour between groups of horses. Does anyone have any useful names or references relating to this . I am aware of von Goldschmidt Rothschild's and Berger's work as well but would appreciate any assistance others may be able to offer. thanks Daniel Mills dmills@dmu.ac.uk From: IN%"N.Ambrose@bham.ac.uk" 8-NOV-1996 08:50:34.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Breed pair database searching. Dear all, I am trying to write a database to hold breeding records and would like to find out if anybody knows of any papers or books that contain search strings to allow the database to be analysed to see when the breed pair last had a common ancestor. Anything in SQL would be, most useful. Thank you all in advance, Neil Ambrose Dept. of Biomedical Science From: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" 8-NOV-1996 11:58:12.99 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: twitching--response to Michele Laurenson What is twitching in horses? Is it a stereotypie? Maybe you could spend some of your report discussing stereotypies in general? Chantal Gaboury gabouryc@em.agr.ca From: IN%"amansour@play.psych.mun.ca" "Atef Mansour" 8-NOV-1996 13:32:55.08 To: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: twitching--response to Michele Laurenson Dear Chantal, As I know, twitching in horses is a mean of restraint in which the person uses a way to induce pain on one of the animals extremities, (e.g., ear, muzzle, leg) and this is to attract its attention to another manipulation usually a veterinarian will do, (e.g., recording rectal temperature, injection). Some tools as well as the hand can be used as twitches. I do not see any relation with stereotypies unless you have something else in mind. All the best, Atef Mansour, Ph.D. amansour@play.psych.mun.ca On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Chantal Gaboury wrote: > What is twitching in horses? Is it a stereotypie? Maybe you could spend > some of your report discussing stereotypies in general? > > Chantal Gaboury > gabouryc@em.agr.ca > From: IN%"amansour@play.psych.mun.ca" "Atef Mansour" 8-NOV-1996 13:35:43.14 To: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: twitching--response to Michele Laurenson Dear Chantal, As I know, twitching in horses is a mean of restraint in which the person uses a way to induce pain on one of the animals extremities, (e.g., ear, muzzle, leg) and this is to attract its attention to another manipulation usually a veterinarian will do, (e.g., recording rectal temperature, injection). Some tools as well as the hand can be used as twitches. I do not see any relation with stereotypies unless you have something else in mind. All the best, Atef Mansour, Ph.D. amansour@play.psych.mun.ca On Fri, 8 Nov 1996, Chantal Gaboury wrote: > What is twitching in horses? Is it a stereotypie? Maybe you could spend > some of your report discussing stereotypies in general? > > Chantal Gaboury > gabouryc@em.agr.ca > From: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" 10-NOV-1996 22:19:21.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Welfare... Dear All, I was in a sushi restaurant the other day and as I was waiting for my friend I caught a glimpse of a fish tank that was about 5ft X 3ft X 2ft. It contained 5 rather large fish (maybe 4 or 5 lbs each). And I thought "How horrible! Poor things, this is cruelty to animals..." But then another part of me said, "Maybe the fish are 'hapier' in this little tank, safe from predators, fed regularly..." And so I wondered, "How do we determine whether or not an animal's welfare is being compromised"...so I thought it would be interesting to get a discussion going on the A-E network and see what other's had to say about this issue... Thanx in advance... Chantal Gaboury gabouryc@em.agr.ca From: IN%"Nabil.Brandl@SH.DK" "Nabil Brandl" 11-NOV-1996 01:44:56.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'", IN%"N.Ambrose@bham.ac.uk" "'N.Ambrose@bham.ac.uk'" CC: Subj: RE: Breed pair database searching. >---------- >From: Neil Ambrose[SMTP:NXA585@novell2.bham.ac.uk] >Sent: 8. november 1996 16.41 >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re: Breed pair database searching. > >Dear all, > >I am trying to write a database to hold breeding records and would like >to find out if anybody knows of any papers or books that contain search >strings to allow the database to be analysed to see when the breed pair >last had a common ancestor. Anything in SQL would be, most useful. > >Thank you all in advance, > > >Neil Ambrose >Dept. of Biomedical Science > Dear All Building database using SQL-system is the most optimal way to get quick search in your database. There are many software in the market using this system. One of them is SAS-SQL. If you applied your statictical analysis by SAS software, it is most convenient to use SAS-SQL and SAS-object-oriented programming. You can get more information by taking a look on SAS-HomePage on internet:http://www.sas.com. Using search driver, use keywords SQL and Object Oriented Programming. If you did not use SAS software, the ACCESS software from Microsoftware office is good for building database. I hope it helps. Best regards >Nabil Brandl > >The Danish Institute of Animal Science >Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare >Research Center Foulum >P.O. 39 DK-8830 Tjele >Denmark >Call: 45-89991342 >Fax: 45-89991500 >HomePage: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil From: IN%"Nabil.Brandl@SH.DK" "Nabil Brandl" 11-NOV-1996 02:00:43.11 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'", IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "'Chantal Gaboury'" CC: Subj: RE: Welfare... >---------- >From: Chantal Gaboury[SMTP:gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA] >Sent: 11. november 1996 05.18 >To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Welfare... > >Dear All, > >I was in a sushi restaurant the other day and as I was waiting for my >friend I caught a glimpse of a fish tank that was about 5ft X 3ft X 2ft. It >contained 5 rather large fish (maybe 4 or 5 lbs each). And I thought >"How horrible! Poor things, this is cruelty to animals..." But then another >part of me said, "Maybe the fish are 'hapier' in this little tank, safe from >predators, fed regularly..." And so I wondered, "How do we determine >whether or not an animal's welfare is being compromised"...so I thought it >would be interesting to get a discussion going on the A-E network and >see what other's had to say about this issue... > >Thanx in advance... > >Chantal Gaboury >gabouryc@em.agr.ca Dear All The discussion concerning determination of animal welfare (subjecttivty/objectivity) has been described by Francoise Wemelsfelder: The scientific validity of subjective concepts in models of animal welfare Fax 44-131 445 5687 The article is accepted for publication in Applied Animal behaviour Science. This article is good start for the discussion requested from Chantal Gaboury. If any one want a copy just send a fax 44-131 445 5687 to the aurhor. Best regards and keep in touch Nabil Brandl The Danish Institute of Animal Science Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Research Center Foulum P.O. 39 DK-8830 Tjele Denmark Call: 45-89991342 Fax: 45-89991500 HomePage: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil From: IN%"dirk.lebelt@lrz.uni-muenchen.de" "Dirk Lebelt" 11-NOV-1996 06:36:13.86 To: IN%"mplaurenson@ucdavis.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: twitching Dear Michele, please find below some references on twitching in horses. Most of them are dealing with the hormonal correlates of this procedure. Canali, E., Ferrante, V., Matiello, S., Sacerdote, P., Panerai, A., Lebelt, D., Zanella, A. (1996) Plasma levels of ss-endorphin and in vitro lymphocyte proliferation as indicators of welfare in horses in normal and restrained conditions. Pferdeheilkunde, 12, 415-418 Hydbring, E., Nymann, S., Dahlborn, K. (1996) Changes in plasma cortisol, plasma ss-endorphin, heart rate, haematovrit and plasma protein concentration in horses during restraint and use of a naso-gastric tube. Pferdeheilkunde, 12, 423-427 Lagerweij E. and Nelis, P. (1984) The twich in horses: a variant of acupuncture. Science, 225, 1172-1174 Lagerweij, E., Nelis, C. , van Ree, J. (1982) The twich. Proceedings of the Association of Veterinarian Anaesthesists of Great Britain and Ireland. Suppl., 10, 44-50 Matsui, K., Sugano, S., Amada, A. (1986) Heart rate and ECG response to twitching in thoroughbred foals and mares. Jpn. J. Vet. Sci., 48, 305-312 McCarthy,R., Jeffcott, L., Clarke, I. (1993) Preliminary studies on the use of plasma ss-endorphin as an indicator of stress and pain. J. Eq. Vet. Sci., 13, 216-219 Hope this helps, Best regards Dirk _______________________________________________________ Dr. Dirk Lebelt Institute of Animal Hygiene, Ethology and Animal Welfare School of Veterinary Medicine Ludwig-Maximilians-University Munich Schwere-Reiter-Str. 9 80797 Munich - Germany pone: +49-89-155640 fax: +49-89-1578277 e-mail: dirk.lebelt@lrz.uni-muenchen.de _______________________________________________________ From: IN%"Anna.Olsson@sjv.se" 11-NOV-1996 07:15:32.14 To: IN%"Nabil.Brandl@SH.DK", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" CC: Subj: about subjectivity and antropomorphism... If I was a fish in a sushi restaurant I wouldn't exaclty describe my situ= ation as being safe from predators...= From: IN%"sisto@servidor.unam.mx" "Anne Sisto" 11-NOV-1996 12:41:53.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: music therapy My name is Anne Sisto and I work in the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine and Animal Husbandry at the UNAM, Mexico, as an Applied Ethology lecturer. I want to know if anyone can give some references or personal experiences about "music therapy as an environmental enrichment alternative in farm animals" for a project we are working on here at the University. Also I would like to subscribe to the ISAE net. Where could I get that information? Thank you. Anne Sisto. From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" "Dr. G. F. Barbato" 11-NOV-1996 15:53:26.34 To: IN%"sisto@servidor.dgsca.unam.mx" "'Anne Sisto'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" Subj: RE: music therapy Anne Sisto[SMTP:sisto@servidor.dgsca.unam.mx] wrote: >My name is Anne Sisto and I work in the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine = and >Animal Husbandry at the UNAM, Mexico, as an Applied Ethology lecturer. >I want to know if anyone can give some references or personal = experiences >about "music therapy as an environmental enrichment alternative in farm >animals" for a project we are working on here at the University. >Also I would like to subscribe to the ISAE net. Where could I get that >information? > Thank you. > Anne Sisto. > many years ago (as a graduate student) i had done some work with another = student (neal stone) in paul siegel's lab. neal's idea was to play = music for laying hens to see how it influenced stress. my meager = contribution (other than manual labor) was to suggest the use of white = or pink noise as a positive control. bottom line was that music was = pretty much the same as white noise. i think the article was eventually = published in Applied Animal Behavior (early to mid '80s) it also probably explains my interest in charles ives, jimi hendrix, = phillip glass and charlie haden (not to mention nwa...) so it goes... gfb From: IN%"KEN@WUDCM.WUSTL.EDU" "Ken Boschert, DVM" 11-NOV-1996 17:32:54.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pig nose rings? Ok...I admit it....I'm pot belly pig-challenged. This fellow presented me with the following question and I really do not know. Would anyone care to comment or suggest options? Thanks in advance for your consideration and help. Ken ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: Bruce Lindner To: "Ken Boschert, DVM" My precious little 6 month old pot bellied pig (Pancetta) has turned my front yard into a scale model of Baghdad circa 1991! I have a friend from Viet Nam who tells me that "back home" they would put rings through the pig's noses to stop them from rooting; do you advise this? It sounds pretty good to me at this point... Bruce Lindner in Portland, Oregon blindne9@mail.idt.net ------------------------------------------ ^__^ Ken Boschert, DVM EMail: ken@wudcm.wustl.edu ( / \ ) Washington University NOAH: 74431.2545@compuserve.com Div. of Comparative Medicine NetVet: http://netvet.wustl.edu/ \ / Box 8061, 660 S. Euclid Ave. Phone: 314-362-3700 =\/= St. Louis, MO 63110 Fax: 314-362-6480 From: IN%"jasoha@ucdavis.edu" "Jill Soha" 11-NOV-1996 18:20:43.84 To: IN%"ethology@searn.sunet.se", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Animal Behavior postdoc at UCD POSTDOCTORAL POSITION AVAILABLE IN ANIMAL BEHAVIOR Applicants must be U.S. citizens or permanent residents. The University of California is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. The Research Training Group in Animal Behavior at the University of California, Davis, supported by the National Science Foundation, invites applications for a 2-year postdoctoral position. Our program emphasizes the study of the whole organism and recognizes that behavior lies between complex internal physiological processes and equally complex environmental effects and influences. The Research Training Group program integrates functional and evolutionary approaches to the study of behavior with an understanding of the role of morphology, anatomy and physiology in the control of behavior and its development. We seek applicants interested in profiting from and encouraging such integration. The interdisciplinary research training program involves 30 faculty participants from the fields of animal physiology, animal sciences, avian sciences, biological anthropology, evolution and ecology, environmental studies, entomology, neurobiology, psychology, veterinary medicine, and wildlife, fish and conservation biology. Successful applicants must have a doctorate degree in any field related to the study of animal behavior. Applications and program information are available from Jeni Trevitt (jmtrevitt@ucdavis.edu; phone: 916-752-4863; fax: 916-752-8391). Applicants are asked to submit vita, representative publications (2-3), three letters of recommendation, a brief (3-5 page)statement of research interests, a one-page (double-spaced) abstract and names of faculty participants whose interests are closest to your intended research, to Jeni Trevitt, Center for Animal Behavior, 85 Briggs Hall, University of California, Davis 95616. This is a 2-year appointment with a stipend of $24,000 per year, plus medical benefits. DEADLINE: January 15, 1997 (or until filled). Incomplete applications cannot be reviewed. From: IN%"cs196@soton.ac.uk" "Clair Sparkes" 12-NOV-1996 04:03:46.72 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"cs196@soton.ac.uk" Subj: Play behaviour I am currently doing a degree in Biology in the UK. I am interested in the theories behind play behaviour in animals. Does anyone have any interesting ideas as to why they do this? Clair Sparkes From: IN%"N.Ambrose@bham.ac.uk" 12-NOV-1996 06:32:34.51 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Play behaviour > >I am currently doing a degree in Biology in the UK. I am >interested in the theories behind play behaviour in animals. >Does anyone have any interesting ideas as to why they do >this? > >Clair Sparkes > > > Clair, My cats play because it is good exercise and helps them develop the life skills they need when they are let out in the wild world (my garden!) eg stalking, pouncing, running etc. I guess they are taught these games by observing their older siblings or parents. I think most animal play (including human children) is a form of mimicary (?sp?) that allows the animal to develop the required manual dexterity (and social skills) to perform the behaviours when required for real. Cheers Neil From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "Vivian & Mickey Bregman" 12-NOV-1996 07:35:30.84 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Play behaviour At 12:43 PM 11/12/96 +0000, you wrote: > >> >>I am currently doing a degree in Biology in the UK. I am >>interested in the theories behind play behaviour in animals. >>Does anyone have any interesting ideas as to why they do >>this? >> >>Clair Sparkes >> >> >> > >Clair, > >My cats play because it is good exercise and helps them develop the life >skills they need when they are let out in the wild world (my garden!) eg >stalking, pouncing, running etc. I guess they are taught these games by >observing their older siblings or parents. I think most animal play >(including human children) is a form of mimicary (?sp?) that allows the >animal to develop the required manual dexterity (and social skills) to >perform the behaviours when required for real. IMO I'm not sure that that's the kind of answer that she's looking for. Activities have to be intrinsically rewarding to the animal. Why is play rewarding to the cats in the short run? No matter that it's good for the cats in the long run. I'd be interested in any answers as well. Vivian ********************************************************************** * Vivian Bregman and the BCs in Scenic Wayne, New Jersey * * Member NADOI & APDT Kelev Canine College, Inc * * bregman@interactive.net * ********************************************************************** From: IN%"R.I.Horrell@psy.hull.ac.uk" 12-NOV-1996 07:41:40.99 To: IN%"KEN@WUDCM.WUSTL.EDU" "Ken Boschert, DVM" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: pig nose rings? > Ok...I admit it....I'm pot belly pig-challenged. This fellow presented me > with the following question and I really do not know. Would anyone care to > comment or suggest options? > > Thanks in advance for your consideration and help. > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > From: Bruce Lindner > To: "Ken Boschert, DVM" > > My precious little 6 month old pot bellied pig (Pancetta) has turned my > front yard into a scale model of Baghdad circa 1991! I have a friend > from Viet Nam who tells me that "back home" they would put rings through > the pig's noses to stop them from rooting; do you advise this? It sounds > pretty good to me at this point... > > ------------------------------------------ > > ^__^ Ken Boschert, DVM EMail: ken@wudcm.wustl.edu > ( / \ ) Washington University NOAH: 74431.2545@compuserve.com > Div. of Comparative Medicine NetVet: http://netvet.wustl.edu/ > \ / Box 8061, 660 S. Euclid Ave. Phone: 314-362-3700 > =\/= St. Louis, MO 63110 Fax: 314-362-6480 > > REPLY : WOULD YOU LIKE IT ...... IF YOU WERE A PIG Consider - pigs spend 20-30% of their waking life rooting in natural conditions. They also do a lot of it in artificial conditions - even when they are fed ad lib, and even when on bare concrete floors where it is both useless and (probably) painful. Not totally unequivocal evidence that rooting is 'behavioural need', by the most extreme definition. But very strongly suggestive of that. In fact, I am prepared to bet that nothing - not even sex or food (rooting is the natural precurser to the latter) - matters more to pig than the urge to root (if someone will give me the money, I'll provide definitive evidence for or against that assertion !). So what would you think of it, if you were a pig, if someone totally prevented you from ever rooting again ? - the equivalent of forced celibacy ? And ringing, with rigid steel 'bull-rings' through the nasal septum, certainly pretty well abolishes rooting (the copper clip-rings round the upper rim of the snout are neither so effective nor so long-lasting). Incidentally, I also have the idea, and evidence, that belly-nosing in early-weaned pigs is essentially rooting inappropriately directed. Enough of this armchair anthropomorphic porcocentric speculation (I shan't enter any pseudo-philosophical debate provoked by that term). We have evidence. We have just completed a project supported by Universities Federation for Animal Welfare on the effects of nose-wringing. Preliminary results have been revealed to the world at Brit Soc Anim Sci and I.S.A.E. Guelph (3 posters and a spoken paper). In the briefest of nutshells - ringing certainly severely restricts rooting (and saves your pasture or backyard from destruction) and constrains a number of other normal activities, such as grazing and picking up food from the ground. However, we have found little sign of abnormal behaviours, stereotypies etc. of the kind you might expect when a behavioural need is thwarted, though they do stand around doing nothing more and sometimes scratch at the ground, as if trying to root with foretrotter. Abstracts of these four offerings appear in Animal Science (Proc of BSAS meeting March 1996) and Proc of Int Cong I.S.A.E., Guelph August 1996). The data are in the process of being writing up fully for 'proper' journal publication. Ian Horrell, Dept Psychology, Univ Hull, HU6 7RX, England. Email: R.I.Horrell@psy.hull.ac.uk on behalf, also, of main collaborators, Philippa A'Ness (Hull), and Sandra Edwards (Aberdeen). From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Simon Mills" 12-NOV-1996 08:19:09.80 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "Vivian & Mickey Bregman" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Play behaviour try Brownlee A 1984 Aninmal Play in Applied animal Behavuiour science 12:307-312 Fagan R. 1981 Animal play behaviour, OUP, Smith PK Does play matter? ...., Behaviour and brain sciences 1982 5:139-184 for starters good luck Daniel Mills From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Simon Mills" 12-NOV-1996 08:23:27.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: music therapy I think kathe Houpt did some work 5 or 6 years ago with horses and concluded that Mozart was more relaxing than heavy metal. She may be able to provide more info. Daniel Mills De Montfort University Lincoln From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Simon Mills" 12-NOV-1996 08:31:11.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: ringing pigs As I understand it, work done at Hull by Ian horrell and colleagues would suggest that ringing pigs is out its a bit like muzzling a horse that crib-bites. It doesn't resolve the motivational issue underlying the problem. So on welfare groundsI think pigs noses should be left alone. An interesting quirk from this is that outdoor pigs are promoted as a welfare friendly system and a recent programme showed how this was being encouraged by the forestry commission - but the pigs had to be ringed to stop them destroying the young saplings. Is it really welfare friendly pork that is produced this way? Daniel Mills De Montfort University From: IN%"N.Ambrose@bham.ac.uk" 12-NOV-1996 10:22:30.47 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Play behaviour [snip] > Why is play rewarding to the cats in the short run? No matter that > >it's good for the cats in the long run. > [snip] Any form of exercise leads to an increase in the release of endorphins in the brains leading to some mild euphoria. This can manifest itself in humans leading to exercise junkies! Neil From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 12-NOV-1996 10:32:23.31 To: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Virtual Jon rants about animal welfare. Chantal, Are the fish happy? I don't know. I keep fish in a tank at home (not for eating). I don't know whether they are happy or not either. They seem to engage in a wide range of behaviour and even breed periodically. Only occasionally does one get sick or die. I don't see them as my prisoners, incarcerated against their will and pining for their tropical homes. But maybe they do. The truly important question in animal welfare, as Ian Duncan and others have shown us, is what is the subjective feeling of the animal itself. This is Truth (with a big "T"). Unfortunately there is almost no way imaginable, experimentally or philosophically, to get an unequivocal answer to such a question. Most of the welfare research I have ever heard of seems to have been concerned with lesser truths. Boil it all down to the bare bones and what you have is simply this: Animals we consider to be in a good state of welfare are those that appear more "normal". They don't engage in bizarre, repetitive behaviours, they carry out their social, maternal, mating behaviours etc competently and appropriately. They are fertile, they grow well and don't get sick very often. In other words we are happy about the welfare of animals that conform to a subjective, anthropocentric model of what happy animals ought to look like. Put it another, more cynical way, if they make us feel good about them and the conditions in which they are kept, then we assume they feel good too. Animal welfare is not yet about the welfare of animals. Sounds absurd huh? It's actually about how humans regard themselves and their relationships with animals. It is also about the kinds of people we believe we are or would like to believe we are. We have the capacity to empathize with whatever we suppose the feeling of an animal to be, but no way to know if our supposition is correct. All the measures we can make and innovative techniques of research we can use at present, don't change this in any significant way. I'm still waiting for someone to come up with the new paradigm. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Chantal Gaboury wrote: > Dear All, > > I was in a sushi restaurant the other day and as I was waiting for my > friend I caught a glimpse of a fish tank that was about 5ft X 3ft X 2ft. It > contained 5 rather large fish (maybe 4 or 5 lbs each). And I thought > "How horrible! Poor things, this is cruelty to animals..." But then another > part of me said, "Maybe the fish are 'hapier' in this little tank, safe from > predators, fed regularly..." And so I wondered, "How do we determine > whether or not an animal's welfare is being compromised"...so I thought it > would be interesting to get a discussion going on the A-E network and > see what other's had to say about this issue... > > Thanx in advance... > > Chantal Gaboury > gabouryc@em.agr.ca > From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 12-NOV-1996 10:36:25.19 To: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Virtual Jon rants about animal welfare. Chantal, Are the fish happy? I don't know. I keep fish in a tank at home (not for eating). I don't know whether they are happy or not either. They seem to engage in a wide range of behaviour and even breed periodically. Only occasionally does one get sick or die. I don't see them as my prisoners, incarcerated against their will and pining for their tropical homes. But maybe they do. The truly important question in animal welfare, as Ian Duncan and others have shown us, is what is the subjective feeling of the animal itself. This is Truth (with a big "T"). Unfortunately there is almost no way imaginable, experimentally or philosophically, to get an unequivocal answer to such a question. Most of the welfare research I have ever heard of seems to have been concerned with lesser truths. Boil it all down to the bare bones and what you have is simply this: Animals we consider to be in a good state of welfare are those that appear more "normal". They don't engage in bizarre, repetitive behaviours, they carry out their social, maternal, mating behaviours etc competently and appropriately. They are fertile, they grow well and don't get sick very often. In other words we are happy about the welfare of animals that conform to a subjective, anthropocentric model of what happy animals ought to look like. Put it another, more cynical way, if they make us feel good about them and the conditions in which they are kept, then we assume they feel good too. Animal welfare is not yet about the welfare of animals. Sounds absurd huh? It's actually about how humans regard themselves and their relationships with animals. It is also about the kinds of people we believe we are or would like to believe we are. We have the capacity to empathize with whatever we suppose the feeling of an animal to be, but no way to know if our supposition is correct. All the measures we can make and innovative techniques of research we can use at present, don't change this in any significant way. I'm still waiting for someone to come up with the new paradigm. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- On Sun, 10 Nov 1996, Chantal Gaboury wrote: > Dear All, > > I was in a sushi restaurant the other day and as I was waiting for my > friend I caught a glimpse of a fish tank that was about 5ft X 3ft X 2ft. It > contained 5 rather large fish (maybe 4 or 5 lbs each). And I thought > "How horrible! Poor things, this is cruelty to animals..." But then another > part of me said, "Maybe the fish are 'hapier' in this little tank, safe from > predators, fed regularly..." And so I wondered, "How do we determine > whether or not an animal's welfare is being compromised"...so I thought it > would be interesting to get a discussion going on the A-E network and > see what other's had to say about this issue... > > Thanx in advance... > > Chantal Gaboury > gabouryc@em.agr.ca > From: IN%"ftabs@aurora.alaska.edu" 12-NOV-1996 10:44:29.88 To: IN%"cs196@soton.ac.uk" "Clair Sparkes" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "Vivian & Mickey Bregman" Subj: RE: Play behaviour Hi. I've also been interested in play behavior. I am currently studying muskox behavior for my masters degree. Muskoxen are pretty odd looking just standing around, but they look even stranger when they're playing! Anyway, here's some good starting points for reviewing some theories for the evolution and functions of play: Fagen, R. 1981. Animal Play Behavior. Oxford University Press - this one is great! Barber, N. 1991. Play and energy regulation in mammals. Quarterly Review of Biology. 66(2):129-147. Caro, T.M. 1988. Adaptive significance of play: are we getting closer? Trends in Ecology and Evolution. 3(2):50-54. Bekoff, M. & J.A. Byers. 1992. Time, energy, and play. Animal Behaviour. v44 (I forget the page #s). How's that for a start? Good luck & enjoy! Andrea Andrea Schulman Department of Biology and Wildlife 211 Irving Building University of Alaska Fairbanks Fairbanks, AK 99775 ftabs@aurora.alaska.edu http://zorba.uafadm.alaska.edu/iab/schulman/ From: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" 12-NOV-1996 13:27:54.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Play behaviour [snip] >> Why is play rewarding to the cats in the short run? No matter that >> it's good for the cats in the long run. [snip] If play is rewarding for most young animals (which I suspect it may be), why or how does it become less rewarding for the adult? For me, that is the more interesting question. Why is play behaviour diminished in adults? > Any form of exercise leads to an increase in the release of endorphins > in the brains leading to some mild euphoria. This can manifest itself in > humans leading to exercise junkies! > Neil Come on Neil, vanity and fear lead to exercise junkies in humans,:) otherwise animals would spend periods of time exercising for the sake of exercising too; I don't see much evidence of that in nonhuman species. I think most activities we see in animals, that might be labelled as exercise, are more likely driven by the basic behavioural needs of seeking food, comfort, sex, etc. and have very little to do with the animal "exercising". People may get a mild euphoria from a release of endorphins during exercise, but the bigger high is satisfying their vanity, pursuit of immortality, etc. For nonhuman animals the payoff from the endorphin release during exercise is not enough to make them want to "exercise". Personally, I wish I could figure out a way to boost my endorphin release to the level that would sustain my interest in jogging throughout the cold winter months. I find with my low level of endorphins release and my strong Catholic upbringing (keeping my pursuit of immortality and vanity in check) that I have no real desire to jog during the cold Canadian winters, especially when I can spend my lunch hour reading the messages on the Applied-Ethology network! Joe ============================= Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada stookey@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"BSteele64@aol.com" 12-NOV-1996 15:06:24.92 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: boarding dog behavior To All- My name is Shana Kinsley and I am a student at the University of Vermont currently enrolled in an animal behavior class. My partner and I are studying the change in behavior of kenneled dogs in a boarding facility over the course of a couple of days. From the time they come in to board until a couple of days later and sometimes extended, long kenneling. I was wondering if anyone had any information or know where we can find some, that may aid in our project. We are at a loss and having a hard time finding information locally. Thank You very much for your time- hope to hear from you soon-Sincerely- Shana Kinsley Bsteele64@aol.com From: IN%"MDAV300@dshs.wa.gov" "David Marshall" 12-NOV-1996 15:36:00.56 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Anthropocentrism Dashed off a reply to Jon Watts on his comment on the dangers of anthropocentrism in interpreting animal welfare... he encouraged me to share it with the entire network, so here goes, in a more fleshed-out form: Jon fittingly reminded us of the dangers of anthropocentrism in this or any cross-species research, and I need not rehash them. To summarize, the usual understanding of the anthropocentric attitude is that one inappropriately attributes to others one's own feelings or values, usually to justify some sort of self-serving behavior towards the "others." To avoid the danger of anthropocentrism, then, one carefully holds back from such attributions. All well and proper. However, it seems to me that this reluctance can be taken too far, that (in the ethological context) the stance that we (humans) cannot understand the feelings of animals can itself become a new kind of anthropocentrism: we are, after all, part of an evolutionarily linked system with the animals, we share with mammals at least the specific neurological structures that deal with emotional states, and that claiming we can't understand the way that animals feel is a more serious form of anthropocentrism, a subtle way of setting ourselves apart from them, and letting ourselves off the hook. Emotions are not language-based, and it seems to me that we are nearly as capable of understanding another animal's emotional reactions as we are of understanding another human's emotional reactions. We do this through empathy: imagining ourselves in the animal's circumstances and monitoring the changes in our emotional state. I do not suggest this empathetic reaction is the "truth", but it is at least as trustworthy as a starting point for further inquiry as any other conceivable measurement technique... we belittle our own marvelously sophisticated sensory and emotive bodies when we hide behind the psuedo-sophistication of the skeptical scientistic attitude. Given the process of evolution, which I would hope by now is generally accepted in scientific circles, it seems to me that the burden of proof lies in the camp of those who would argue for any DIFFERENCE between us and animals, argue for the LACK of interconnectedness with or capacity for understanding and empathy of the physical and emotional states of different beings. Antonio R. Damasio's suggestion in "Descartes' Error" that animals also possess all the neurological structures and functions necessary for subjectivity and self-awareness give my suggestion even more ethical urgency. Dr. David B. Marshall Office of Children's Research State of Washington DSHS, USA (A personal introductory note: I perform neural network and other fancy statistical analyses of data for several projects dealing with child abuse and neglect; before that, ten years as a physical chemistry professor studying heterogeneous reactions at solid-liquid interfaces... given my life-long fascination with human and animal behavior, and the inordinate amounts of free time I spend observing wildlife, I'd love to work in ethology as a stats guy, if in return my bosses would let me out in the field once in a while!) From: IN%"cs196@soton.ac.uk" "Clair Sparkes" 12-NOV-1996 19:55:27.09 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "Vivian & Mickey Bregman" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Play behaviour Thank you all for your messages. Yep, I understand that animals need to develop social skills and therefore, in order to survive in the real world, have to 'practice' certain activities, i,e, kittens pouncing etc. I assume also that play constitutes exercise and improves strength and muscle ability??.Does the animal know that exercise is important? I'm also interested in the reasons why patterns of play change as the animal increases with age. Also, why do they tend to 'play' with siblings of similar sizes? On Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:34:09 -0500 Vivian & Mickey Bregman wrote: > From: Vivian & Mickey Bregman > Date: Tue, 12 Nov 1996 08:34:09 -0500 > Subject: Re: Play behaviour > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > At 12:43 PM 11/12/96 +0000, you wrote: > > > >> > >>I am currently doing a degree in Biology in the UK. I am > >>interested in the theories behind play behaviour in animals. > >>Does anyone have any interesting ideas as to why they do > >>this? > >> > >>Clair Sparkes > >> > >> > >> > > > >Clair, > > > >My cats play because it is good exercise and helps them develop the life > >skills they need when they are let out in the wild world (my garden!) eg > >stalking, pouncing, running etc. I guess they are taught these games by > >observing their older siblings or parents. I think most animal play > >(including human children) is a form of mimicary (?sp?) that allows the > >animal to develop the required manual dexterity (and social skills) to > >perform the behaviours when required for real. > > IMO I'm not sure that that's the kind of answer that she's looking for. > Activities have to be intrinsically rewarding to the animal. Why is play > rewarding to the cats in the short run? No matter that it's good for the > cats in the long run. > > I'd be interested in any answers as well. > > Vivian > > ************************************************************ ********** > * Vivian Bregman and the BCs in Scenic Wayne, New Jersey * > * Member NADOI & APDT Kelev Canine College, Inc * > * bregman@interactive.net * > ************************************************************ ********** From: IN%"shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu" "Steven L Hale" 12-NOV-1996 20:01:57.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu" Subj: RE: Anthropcentrism My experience with nine pet dogs leads me to agree with David Marshall's comment that >All well and proper. However, it seems to me that this reluctance can be >taken too far, that (in the ethological context) the stance that we >(humans) cannot understand the feelings of animals can itself become a >new kind of anthropocentrism: we are, after all, part of an evolutionarily >linked system with the animals, we share with mammals at least the >specific neurological structures that deal with emotional states, and that >claiming we can't understand the way that animals feel is a more serious >form of anthropocentrism, a subtle way of setting ourselves apart from >them, and letting ourselves off the hook. Emotions are not >language-based, and it seems to me that we are nearly as capable of >understanding another animal's emotional reactions as we are of >understanding another human's emotional reactions. We do this through >empathy: imagining ourselves in the animal's circumstances and >monitoring the changes in our emotional state. My wife & I have found that when we're open to the possibility of empathizing with our dogs, we understand their capacity for a variety of complex communication patterns. For example, one dog is particularly sensitive to my angry verbal rebukes of other dogs, and she'll mimic my anger and then gum very lightly at my hand, as if to say "Chill out; I could get angry the way you are and bite your hand, but I'm not." This behavior is not a stereotypie; it's an attempt to modify my threatening behavior, and when I calm down, she then calms down. I also agree with David that >the burden of proof lies in the camp of those who would argue >for any DIFFERENCE between us and animals, argue for the LACK of >interconnectedness with or capacity for understanding and empathy of >the physical and emotional states of different beings. In this and previous discussions, most of those who attack anthropocentrism refer to "humans and animals" rather than "humans and other animals"; according a non-animal status to humans is about as anthropocentric as you can get. .............. A Buddhist parable from the Book of Tea: Two monks were observing some fish in a stream. The first monk said "Look how happy the fish are." The second monk replied, "You are not a fish; you do not know if the fish are happy or not." The first monk answered, "You are not me; you do not know if I know if the fish are happy or not." Steven Hale shale@dekalb.dc.peachnet.edu From: IN%"dross@barint.on.ca" 12-NOV-1996 21:13:14.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Hi all, I have been reading the discussions on this list with interest for the last few days. Are non-academics welcome on this list? My primary interest right now is in canines - we breed Shetland Sheepdogs, and together with a partner I teach obedience and agility classes. I also deal with "problem dogs", primarily referred by local veterinarians. In the past I have worked with or bred a number of other species, including horses, poultry, and tropical finches. It is really nice to discover a whole group of people who are genuinely concerned about animal welfare without indulging in excessive sentimentality about animals. Hope you'll let me stay for a while. Simone Ross Manta reg. Barrie, Ont. From: IN%"kckissan@alpha.delta.edu" "Kelly Caithlin Kissane" 12-NOV-1996 22:00:02.64 To: IN%"N.Ambrose@bham.ac.uk" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Play behaviour Play behavior has even been seen in the lowly invertebrates, such as lycosids (wolf spiders) Juvenile lycosids often jump on each other during the time they spend on their mother's back. Play behavior is believed to help juveniles sharpen their predator instincts. Kelly C. Kissane Grad student Central Michigan University arachnology/animal behavior From: IN%"kckissan@alpha.delta.edu" "Kelly Caithlin Kissane" 12-NOV-1996 22:02:01.29 To: IN%"N.Ambrose@bham.ac.uk" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Play behaviour Play behavior has even been seen in the lowly invertebrates, such as lycosids (wolf spiders) Juvenile lycosids often jump on each other during the time they spend on their mother's back. Play behavior is believed to help juveniles sharpen their predator instincts. Kelly C. Kissane Grad student Central Michigan University arachnology/animal behavior From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 12-NOV-1996 22:52:00.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Play behaviour First of all, humans are the only ones who have put the "play" label on behaviors that look cute to us but might be deadly serious to the players. Does anybody here still think professional football is a game? Anyway, I'll continue to use the word "play" to describe what most humans regard as play. The only play behaviors I'm familiar with and have read any research on is in predatory animals. Most of the literature suggests that play in young predators is a means of learning the hunting skills they need to master to survive as adults. It's intstinctively hard-wired but clumsy in early practice. This is one the the reasons it looks so cute and gets labeled as play. The wolf cub struggling to master his killing skills and being made a fool of by a beetle looks like play to the human observer. Nobody can say how the cub feels about it. The adult wolf, exercising his more practiced skills to bring down a reinder doesn't look so playful. So we call this work. Who's to say? Adult wolves appear to "play" with cubs. Are they playing, or are they really school teachers? In social predators, play is also a way to learn the social skills needed to get along in the pack. Young littermates at play (or what looks like play to us but might be deadly serious to them) sort themselves out on the dominance hierarchy according to who wins the games. Through playing the games, the losers learn to exhibit surrender signals that keep them from getting chewed up. And the winners learn to recognize surrender signals and spare themselves the calorie loss of killing the littermate. ONce they have the language straightened out, there's no need for the games except as an occasional reminder. In both predatory and social skills, "play" could be just a young animal's clumsy trial 'n error attempts to learn his job. Once he learns his job, he doesn't have to practice so much. So, do adult animals really exhibit less play behavior than juveniles? Sure. But is the behavior they exhibit less of really "play?" Damned if I know, Margie, NY. From: IN%"D.Wells@Queens-Belfast.ac.uk" 13-NOV-1996 03:38:28.70 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:boarding dog behaviour Dear Shana, I have been studying the behaviour of sheltered dogs housed in the Ulster Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals (USPCA) for the past 5 years. One of the issues I explored was the effect of time on the behaviour of such sheltered animals. You may be interested to read the findings of this work, andit may be of some use in your own studies: Wells, D.L. & Hepper, P.G (1992). The behaviour of dogs in a rescue shelter. Animal Welfare, 1:171-186. You may find the following articles interesting, although again, they focus on the behaviour of dogs housed in shelters and laboratories; the principals behindthe work, however, may be of some use to you: Hubrecht, R.C., Serpell, J.A. and Poole, T.B., 1992. Correlates of pen size and housing conditions on the behaviour of kennelled dogs. Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci., 34: 365-383. Hubrecht, R.C ( 1995). The welfare of dogs in human care. In J.Serpell (Ed.) The Domestic Dog:its evolution, behaviour, and interactions with people. Cambridge: Cambridge University Press. Good luck with your work Debbie Wells The School of Psychology The Queen's University of Belfast BT7 1NN N.Ireland A reply to: "To All- My name is Shana Kinsley and I am a student at the University of Vermont currently enrolled in an animal behavior class. My partner and I are studying the change in behavior of kenneled dogs in a boarding facility over the course of a couple of days. From the time they come in to board until a couple of days later and sometimes extended, long kenneling. I was wondering if anyone had any information or know where we can find some, that may aid in our project. We are at a loss and having a hard time finding information locally. Thank You very much for your time- hope to hear from you soon-Sincerely- Shana Kinsley" From: IN%"digger@liverpool.ac.uk" "Matthew Adams" 13-NOV-1996 10:29:47.52 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "entire net" CC: Subj: introduction Hello, I'm Matthew Adams an M.S.c. student in Behavioural & Evolutionary Ecology. Studying at Liverpool University, England. I would be very grateful for the exchange of any information, discussions, announcements, news items, etc., in the future on applied animal ethology. Yours sincerely Matthew Adams. From: IN%"richards@hula.net" 13-NOV-1996 15:16:15.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: play behavior <[snip] There is another factor that no doubt has some effect on decreased > play behaviour in adults, and that is finite amounts of time and > energy. Generally, the young of a mammalian species receive > concentrated amounts of energy in the form of milk, obtained during > relatively briefly suckling bouts from their mother. There is then > lots of time available to "play". As the juvenile gets older, > however, they must gradually spend more and more time in various > activities which do not consume the days of juveniles. Mares spend > about 70% of the daylight hours grazing for both themselves and their > foal. There is little time left for play, although they will do so > on occasion, at least in the well-nourished and safe domestic > environment. Interestingly, play is very uncommon among foals living > on Cumberland Island, as compared to levels of play among foals in > domestic environments. I suspect that this is at least partially > the result of the environment's being marginal, nutrient-wise, > although we've never tried to compare the quality of the milk from > the feral mares with that of the milk from the domestic mares. Sharon Crowell-Davis This seems like a reasonable explanation and one that could be experimentally tested. Unlike Jeff Rushen's suggestion that we move from lawn games to lawn chairs because we enjoy "mental fun" more than physical play I suspect there is some physiological change that alters the reward system. If energy is "cheap" for a young animal and "expensive" for the adult, as Sharon suggests, than that would explain why adults spend less time playing. However, the explanation seems to fall short in situations where adults have "cheap" energy available. Why don't obese animals and people (with excessive energy stores) spend more time playing? If Sharon is right that energy availability or cost is the limiting factor then we would predict that obese individuals would spend more time playing. Instead what appears to happen, in regards to energy expenditure, is that young are liberal in energy expenditure and adults are conservative when it comes to play behaviour (regardless how much energy the adult has access to or has stored). Joe ============================= Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada stookey@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"jnielsen@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca" "Julia Nielsen" 14-NOV-1996 11:15:30.53 To: IN%"richards@hula.net" "D. Richards" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: play behavior Dawn- As you observed, both human and nonhuman animals play to acquire and refine skills. But in most species, including ours, sometimes play is for its own sake. That is, it's fun! Think of some of Dave Mech's studies on raven/wolf play for example. Julia On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, D. Richards wrote: > <[snip] > > > I think of much of the play behavior seen in juvenile animals (human > primates included!) as practicing learning and socialization skills. For > example, kittens batting, swiping, running, and jumping as a 'play' form of > hunting (skills needed as adults). Similarly, human children, in many > cultures, 'play' at skills they will need as adults. For instance, Mbuti > Pgymy boys play at spearing pretend animals and driving them into nets, > while girls pretend to nurse babies and construct the temporary huts used > during the rainy season. In our culture, *traditionally* boys would play > army and girls would play with dolls and homemaking. (Now, in response to > our changing perceptions of sex and gender, we don't always encourage such > traditional play, but that is another thread entirely, unsuited to this > list)! Regarded in this light, play behavior would naturally have a > diminished role in adults. > > *intro note: my background is anthropology/archaeology, so perhaps I'm not > correctly interpreting this thread on play behavior. I would appreciate > any enlightenment. > > Aloha, > Dawn > > > > > From: IN%"jnielsen@gpu.srv.ualberta.ca" "Julia Nielsen" 14-NOV-1996 11:19:30.81 To: IN%"richards@hula.net" "D. Richards" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: play behavior Dawn- As you observed, both human and nonhuman animals play to acquire and refine skills. But in most species, including ours, sometimes play is for its own sake. That is, it's fun! Think of some of Dave Mech's studies on raven/wolf play for example. Julia On Wed, 13 Nov 1996, D. Richards wrote: > <[snip] > > > I think of much of the play behavior seen in juvenile animals (human > primates included!) as practicing learning and socialization skills. For > example, kittens batting, swiping, running, and jumping as a 'play' form of > hunting (skills needed as adults). Similarly, human children, in many > cultures, 'play' at skills they will need as adults. For instance, Mbuti > Pgymy boys play at spearing pretend animals and driving them into nets, > while girls pretend to nurse babies and construct the temporary huts used > during the rainy season. In our culture, *traditionally* boys would play > army and girls would play with dolls and homemaking. (Now, in response to > our changing perceptions of sex and gender, we don't always encourage such > traditional play, but that is another thread entirely, unsuited to this > list)! Regarded in this light, play behavior would naturally have a > diminished role in adults. > > *intro note: my background is anthropology/archaeology, so perhaps I'm not > correctly interpreting this thread on play behavior. I would appreciate > any enlightenment. > > Aloha, > Dawn > > > > > From: IN%"CROWELL-DAVIS.S@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 14-NOV-1996 11:29:55.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: play behaviour Whoa, Joe. I didn't say "is the limiting factor". I said "has some effect on". I also mentioned time, as well as energy. Even adding these two, interlinked factors together, I expect there are multiple other factors that contribute to the "decrease" in play, rather than one single factor. These could include physiological changes and developmentally dependent changes in the exact function (and therefore form) of play. A further complication, particularly in terms of human play, is the question of what qualifies as play, and why? If my daughter is riding her bicycle, she is playing. If I decide that we're having peanut butter and jelly sandwiches tonight so that I have time to go out and join her on my bicycle, am I playing or am I just "exercising"? My mother, upon sending her youngest child out into the big wide world, reassigned the time formerly spent caring for children to making doll-houses and doll-house furniture. She calls herself a "hobbyist". I think it qualifies as play, and she does a lot of it now that she is no longer inundated with maternal responsibilities, i.e. she is no longer conservative in expending time/energy on play. Similar examples can be seen among many people as they reach the point where earning money and caring for offspring no longer requires every waking minute of their time. So is the conservation of energy strictly age-dependent? One thing about the obese individuals is that they may have reached the point where moving, carrying around the weight of all that fat, is very costly in terms of energy, particularly if their muscles have atrophied as they became fat. To test my time/energy hypothesis, I'd take fit individuals of various ages and move them back and forth between environments where appropriate nutrition can be obtained quickly and easily, and environments where obtaining appropriate nutrition is laborious and time-consuming, and look for differences in play behavior. Sharon Crowell-Davis > Date: Thu, 14 Nov 1996 10:29:44 -0600 (CST) > From: STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: play behaviour > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > > There is another factor that no doubt has some effect on decreased > > play behaviour in adults, and that is finite amounts of time and > > energy. Generally, the young of a mammalian species receive > > concentrated amounts of energy in the form of milk, obtained during > > relatively briefly suckling bouts from their mother. There is then > > lots of time available to "play". As the juvenile gets older, > > however, they must gradually spend more and more time in various > > activities which do not consume the days of juveniles. Mares spend > > about 70% of the daylight hours grazing for both themselves and their > > foal. There is little time left for play, although they will do so > > on occasion, at least in the well-nourished and safe domestic > > environment. Interestingly, play is very uncommon among foals living > > on Cumberland Island, as compared to levels of play among foals in > > domestic environments. I suspect that this is at least partially > > the result of the environment's being marginal, nutrient-wise, > > although we've never tried to compare the quality of the milk from > > the feral mares with that of the milk from the domestic mares. > > Sharon Crowell-Davis > > This seems like a reasonable explanation and one that could be experimentally > tested. Unlike Jeff Rushen's suggestion that we move from lawn games to > lawn chairs because we enjoy "mental fun" more than physical play I suspect > there is some physiological change that alters the reward system. If energy > is "cheap" for a young animal and "expensive" for the adult, as Sharon > suggests, than that would explain why adults spend less time playing. However, > the explanation seems to fall short in situations where adults have "cheap" > energy available. Why don't obese animals and people (with excessive > energy stores) spend more time playing? If Sharon is right that energy > availability or cost is the limiting factor then we would predict that > obese individuals would spend more time playing. Instead what appears to > happen, in regards to energy expenditure, is that young are liberal in energy > expenditure and adults are conservative when it comes to play behaviour > (regardless how much energy the adult has access to or has stored). > > Joe > ============================= > Joseph M. Stookey > Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Saskatchewan > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > S7N 5B4 > Canada > > stookey@sask.usask.ca > ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 706-542-8343 FAX 706-542-0051 Email crowell-davis.s@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "Vivian & Mickey Bregman" 14-NOV-1996 11:43:12.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: play behaviour At 10:29 AM 11/14/96 -0600, you wrote: <<>> However, >the explanation seems to fall short in situations where adults have "cheap" >energy available. Why don't obese animals and people (with excessive >energy stores) spend more time playing? If Sharon is right that energy >availability or cost is the limiting factor then we would predict that >obese individuals would spend more time playing. Instead what appears to >happen, in regards to energy expenditure, is that young are liberal in energy >expenditure and adults are conservative when it comes to play behaviour >(regardless how much energy the adult has access to or has stored). > >Joe Joe I figure that it's because in early times, food was not quite so easy to get and the adults who spent time playing and not foraging didn't get as much to eat. It's probably that we are wired to not play as adults. We are probably wired to not waste energy except in the pursuit of food. OTOH, what it is that I'm doing when I sit and watch TV?? It's playing of a sort. JMO Vivian ********************************************************************** * Vivian Bregman and the BCs in Scenic Wayne, New Jersey * * Member NADOI & APDT Kelev Canine College, Inc * * bregman@interactive.net * ********************************************************************** From: IN%"l.galhardo@ip.pt" 14-NOV-1996 13:50:22.41 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Reptile feeding requirements Dear all, Does anybody know what are the feeding requirements of the snakes Najas in captivity? Do they strictly need alive food (birds and small mammals)? In Portugal, there is no legislation proihibiting the use of alive vertebrates as food for animals in captivity. However there is an increasing number of people feeling distressed by the idea of going to a zoo or a pet shop and learning (or even seing in loco) that reptiles are being fed with alive animals. Therefore I was asked to provide relevant information concerning the real feeding requirements of reptiles in general and Najas in particular, since the Portuguese zoological parks argue that the latter only survive with alive animals (but they also provide alive food to the other animals). I believe that there must be a way of simulating alive preys and that this must be the way captive reptiles are being fed in Britain due to the legislation. Does anybody give me some information concerning this? And also, if possible, give me an idea of some relevant references concerning the issue? Yours, Leonor Galhardo From: IN%"l.galhardo@ip.pt" 14-NOV-1996 13:51:54.58 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Australian circuses legislation Dear all, I need to have access to the recent Australian legislation concerning the welfare of animals in circuses. Do you have any idea of the best and quicker way of contacting some Australian official body for this purpose? Yours, Leonor Galhardo l.galhardo"@ip.pt From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 14-NOV-1996 14:51:01.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: False facts Dear All: Iain Christison recently wrote - >Of course there are false facts: > >An atom is the smallest particle of matter. >Balancing the budget is the most important national goal. > >Some of the facts I gave in lectures a few years ago are now less correct >and others are false. > >My point is that even if some information subsequently proves to be >incorrect, at some point in time it was a fact--or was considered to be >factual--so is now a false fact. > >As usual the simple yes/no choice is too simple. Ray, I think your >teacher gave you a false fact when she said they did not exist. > Iain has besmirched the good name of my freshman English teacher, who I remember as perfect in every way and thus could not possibly be wrong about "true and false facts." (Actually, what she was doing was pointing out to me that my overuse of the phrase "true fact" was more than a burden to the reader; it was an unnecessary redundancy.) Iain's message presented me with several options as to how I should reply. My first inclination was to draft a statement that only in Iain's more recent incarnation as an Associate Dean could he come to accept such double-speak as a "false fact. " But I feared that my attempt at humor in the stark environs of cyberspace might possibly be misconstrued by others as an irreverence on my part for administrators, and I wouldn't want to give false impressions. I want to attempt two points; the first dealing with the definition of the term "fact" and how we use the term in science. The second point is to raise the question of whether or not there are any facts in science. My Webster's (actually a compilation from two dictionaries) defines fact: 1) originally, a deed; act. 2) a thing that has actually happened or is true; thing that has been or is. 3) the state of things as they are; reality; actuality; truth. 4) something said to have occurred or supposed to be true. 5) the assertion or statement of a thing done or existing; sometimes, loosely, by a transfer of meaning, the thing supposed (even though fasely) to be done or to exist; a thing supposed or asserted to be done; as, his _facts_ are false. I think that we in science many times use the term "fact" in a manner that more correctly fits definition 4 or 5 above, when we believe we are using the term according to definitions 1-3. As a consequence, some of our _facts_ later are proven to be false. There are times when we should more correctly use the term theory - not the term fact. However, while such an approach is more precise, it creates some difficulty. For example, evolution is a theory in the same way that gravity is a theory. There is sufficient evidience, I would contend, to justify the statement that, "It is a fact that animals evolve." This is generally equivalent to the statement that, "It is a fact that a dropped ball falls because of gavity." Nevertheless, to theorectical physicists gravity remains a scientific theory, not a fact, because the complete explanation of attraction forces between objects has not been attained. In the same sense, evolution remains a scientific theory because such details as gradualism vs. punctuated equilibrium(ism) are still in debate among some persons. On the question as to whether there are any facts in science, some philosophers of science have argued that there are no absolutes, no facts. In fact (sic?) the atom is not the smallest particle, and there may _not_ be a smallest particle because energy and matter may lose their distinction at some level of sub-atomic particles. Regarding, evolution one could possibly use a version of Dawkin's "Selfish Gene" to contend that it is not a _fact_ that animals are evolving; instead one could contend that what is really happening is the genes are differentially replicating through the use of plants and animals such that the more genetically fit (selfish) genes are increasing their numbers. And this contention of "evolving animals" is only a human perception. I find this question as to whether or not there are facts in science quite interesting, but I don't accept completely that there are no facts. I believe that when we reject a null hypothesis, we can establish a _fact_. The null hypothesis: atoms are the smallest particles, can be proven false, which would appear to be the basis of establishing a fact; atoms are not the smallest particles. However, to "prove" in a positive sense the _fact_ that a given particle is the smallest one in the universe, I don't think is possible. We in behavior and welfare dwell within a realm of science and philosophy where there are few facts in the positive sense - few absolutes. Establishing meaningful and testable null hypotheses would appear critical in advancing knowledge - establishing some applicable facts - in these areas. Having said all this, Iain, I don't agree that my English teacher was wrong. The most appropriate definition of a fact, especially in science, is "truth." Today, there is a tendency to confuse the difference between information and fact. As you pointed out, even we educators at times present _information_ as if it were _fact_, and we should probably strive to ensure that we not blur the distinction. And unscrupulous politicians (and others) can, and do, bombard the public with information (and misinformation) that is presented in a format that gives it the appearance of being _fact_. I blame some of the news media personnel for allowing misinformation to be presented as _fact_ without challenge. This, I would contend, is an abdication of responsibility on the part of the media. Similarly, I don't think we educators should abdicate our responsibility in striving to define what is truth and what is information. Iain, I remember your once telling me the story about Harry Truman ending a rather long letter with the statement, "If I had had more time, I would have written a shorter letter." I don't have the time to make this message shorter! I also know that you and I, in fact, don't have major differences on this topic. Best regards. Ray Stricklin Department of Animal Science University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742 From: IN%"dross@barint.on.ca" 14-NOV-1996 15:18:52.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: play behaviour Perhaps play behaviour serves a number of different purposes and there is a reduction in a specific play behaviour when that purpose has been served. My Sheltie puppies play very rough and violent wrestling games from about 6 to 9 weeks. After that, the games change to running and chasing games with very little physical contact. I've felt for some time that the wrestling games are used to establish rankings within the group, and once that is accomplished, there is no more need for them. Adult Shelties fight very rarely, and even when they do, there is usually minimal damage. By contrast, some of the breeds I am familiar with that like to play very physical games all their lives, such as Boxers and Jack Russel Terriers, tend to get into violent fights with serious physical damage with great regularity, even within family groups that should be well established. Could the tendency of domesticated animals to play more as adults than their wild counterparts be related to their failure to learn some of the lessons the play behaviour was meant to teach them? Simone Ross Manta reg. Barrie, Ont. From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 14-NOV-1996 16:09:56.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: play behaviour As an undergraduate, I was involved (as a behavioral recorder) in a study entitled "The effects of voluntary consumption of ethanol on the social behavior of the stumptailed macaque. Basically, screwdrivers (in graduated cylinders) were made available to a group of 8 monkeys and we recorded who drank how much. Then we scored social interactions. As for alcohol consumption, some of the animals got drunk some of the time. The relevance of this study to the play behavior, though, was that when some of the adults got drunk they played like juveniles (which they never did otherwise). I never did understand this. If you have some insight, please comment. > >----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- >----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- >----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- >----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- From: IN%"TINA@waikato.ac.nz" 14-NOV-1996 18:26:13.91 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: introduction/information given/info requested Greetings All. My name is Tina McAdie, I have been lurking around the net, enjoying the discussions, and learning lots of new things (I didn't know what twitching was, and the play discussion has been fun). I am currently employed at the University of Waikato, in the Psychology Department. I teach statistics and computer stats packages, but my real love is the research I have been doing with laying hens and sounds. A recent post to the net has inspired me to reply to some questions on this subject. My Masters Thesis involved looking at the ways different sounds biased hens behavioural allocation between two keys (perspex disks). I found that the sound that caused the most bias was the sound of hens in a commercial poultry shed, and the sound that was avoided the least (and in fact not avoided at all by half the subjects) was a piece of music (Theme from Local hero by Mark Knopfler). If anyone would like more details just email me and let me know. At the moment I am trying to finish my PhD and I have been using white noise (like the sound your T.V. makes when it is on a "blank" channel) to assess bias due to an aversive (but not too aversive) stimulus (the experiments are designed so that they can always turn the noise off). I am familar with the work done by Spensley et al (1995?) at the Silsoe Research Institute, and I have an article by Rutter, Scott & Moran (1993), and an article by Nicol, Blakeborough & Scott (1991)... Does anyone know of any other work using white (or any other type) of noise that I should be aware of? If anyone would like to Email me directly (to talk about work, or I could tell you all about our upcoming summer in NZ), my Email address is: Tina@Waikato.ac.nz Thanks for listening! Tina. From: IN%"richards@hula.net" 14-NOV-1996 22:14:52.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: play behavior > Dear applied ethologists! > I have received the following virus warning in my e-mail. Does anyone know > more about this or is it just another hoax? > Anders Lund > Just another hoax, Anders. I received the same message and an almost immediate followup clarification myself. Best wishes, Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William A. Hayes, II, Ph.D. | If you follow your bliss, you put yourself Professor of Biology | on a kind of a track that has been there P.O.Box 3234 | the whole while, waiting for you, and the Delta State University | life you ought to be living is the one you Cleveland, MS 38733 | are living. --- Joseph Campbell ph: 601-846-4247 \ _____ ____ fax: 601-846-4016 | \_____ _____/ \ email: bhayes@dsu.deltast.edu | __ \^^/ __ | | ////)\(0= =0)/(\\\\ // ^\| / ^^ \ |/^ \\ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://www.deltast.edu/academics/artsci/bio/hayes/wahhome.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"CROWELL-DAVIS.S@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 15-NOV-1996 08:07:38.33 To: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: play and energy/time budgets Chris I would not necessarily expect animals fed concentrates to show "large" amounts of play, as there may be other factors which limit the maximum amount of play. I would simply expect that if there is insufficient time and energy to engage in this maximum amount of play and still meet immediate survival needs, then play should be diminished. This relates to Simone's comments about adult domesticated animals playing more than their wild counterparts. The adult domesticates, being fed concentrated rations and living in a relatively safe environment, may be able to spend time and energy on play that their wild counterparts simply cannot afford. Sharon Crowell-Davis > Dear all, 3-D > > I have some misgivings about the suggestion that the amount of play > engaged in by non-human animals is related to the concentration of energy > in food sources. Many of our captive animals are fed concentrated feeds, > and as a consequence, can obtain their daily energy requirement in a > relatively short amount of time (e.g. 10% of the light phase for turkeys, > 20 mins for layer hens, 45-60 mins for laboratory mice and rats). Wild or > feral conspecifics spend a considerably greater amount of time searching > for food (e.g. 8 hrs for pigs). If the amount of play is related to the > rate of > energy intake and subsequent availability of time, one might expect that > animals > fed concentrates (almost all farm and laboratory animals, and many zoo > animals) would show large amounts of play, even as adults. This, in my > experience, is not the case. > > Regards, > > Chris Sherwin > University of Bristol > ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 706-542-8343 FAX 706-542-0051 Email crowell-davis.s@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk" "debbie goodwin" 15-NOV-1996 09:32:25.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: play and energy/time budgets On Fri, 15 Nov 1996 09:05:06 -0500 (EST) Sharon Crowell-Davis wrote: > This relates to Simone's comments about adult domesticated animals > playing more than their wild counterparts. The adult domesticates, > being fed concentrated rations and living in a relatively safe > environment, may be able to spend time and energy on play that their > wild counterparts simply cannot afford. That's true, but many domesticated species' behaviour appears paedomorphic when compared to their ancestral species. I appears that we select juvenile behavioural and physical characteristics especially in our companion animals (compare many breeds of dog and the wolf). So whether we are actively selecting for playfulness, or whether this just accompanies other changes which produce a more behaviourally juvenile animal, this may explane why we see more play in domesticated than wild (ancestral) species. Debbie D.Goodwin PhD Anthrozoology Institute University of Southampton D.Goodwin@soton.ac.uk http://www.soton.ac.uk/~azi/azi.htm From: IN%"mick.price@UAlberta.CA" 15-NOV-1996 10:19:27.79 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: play behaviour Joe Stookey asked: > Why don't obese animals and people (with excessive >energy stores) spend more time playing? If Sharon is right that energy >availability or cost is the limiting factor then we would predict that >obese individuals would spend more time playing. Instead what appears to >happen, in regards to energy expenditure, is that young are liberal in energy >expenditure and adults are conservative when it comes to play behaviour >(regardless how much energy the adult has access to or has stored). > >Joe >============================= It has always seemed to me that with inherited traits (and I think we're refering in this thread to the inherited aspects of play behaviour), evolution provides not so much for the actual environment that is encountered, but rather for the environment which the animal can expect to encounter. In other words, even if the animal / person is obese, and therefore could be said to have spare energy, its phylogeny says that as an adult it will have less spare energy and so should behave conservatively. Mick [==============================================================] [= =] [= Mick Price, PhD; PAg =] [= Professor, Livestock Growth and Meat Production =] [= Department of Agricultural, Food and Nutritional Science =] [= 310 Agriculture / Forestry Centre =] [= University of Alberta, Edmonton, Alberta, T6G 2P5 =] [= Tel: (403) 492 3235 FAX: (403) 492 9130 =] [= mprice@afns.ualberta.ca =] [= =] [= "EDUCATION -- A PROCESS THAT REPLACES COCKSURE =] [= IGNORANCE WITH THOUGHTFUL UNCERTAINTY" =] [= =] [==============================================================] From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM. Sherwin" 15-NOV-1996 10:58:19.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: play Dear All, 3-D The discussion on play behaviour is developing to be an interesting one. Several people have eluded/stated that play behaviour is more prevalent in domesticated spp. than ancestral/wild/feral spp. Could anyone provide references for this work please. Thanks in advance, Chris Sherwin University of Bristol From: IN%"gadagkar@is2.dal.ca" "Sudhindra Gadagkar" 15-NOV-1996 13:28:15.86 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Play and aggression... Dear applied-ethologists, There are few things more amusing and pleasant than the sight of a couple of pups or kittens at play. During the play, there seems to be a lot of biting and nipping and chasing going on. While these acts are undoubtedly 'oh, so cute', I can't help but wonder if there isn't some element of real aggressive intent in there. That the little things are simply incapable of harming each other, and would if they could. Certainly when human kids fight, it is often with full intent of harming. Do fully grown animals (esp. in the wild) engage in play? I don't mean those that, while physically capable of harming, are still dependant upon their parents for food, and therefore do not really "know" that they are capable of harm. Now, I work with fish (tilapia), and have paired hundreds of very young fish (soon after swim-up), to study aggression in these fish, and can say with certainty that in a majority of the cases, one little wisp of a fish would have ended up killing the other, if only I had left them together long enough. I actually lost some precious degrees of freedom by doing just that (left them to "acclimatize" for too long!) I guess my question is why should young fish harm ecah other (even when there is no immediate competition for anything - just the proximity of each other in a small container), enough to kill, whereas in canines and felines the tumbles are harmless? Is it perhaps because fish are rarely in such close quarters with each other, and so do not have the need to be gentle on each other, whereas the young sibs of a litter are in pretty close proximity, and that "harmless aggression" has been selected for in mammals? In other words, is play really a manifetstaion of aggression, but in a way that looks like fun, and indeed, works out fine for the participants, because both benefit by honing their survival skills, with minimal risk of injury to both participants? Just a thought. Cheers. Sudhindra Gadagkar. P.S. Incidentally I have always wondered why my 11 year old son "kills" me in computer games. From: IN%"jon.cooper@zoology.oxford.ac.uk" 15-NOV-1996 14:39:12.57 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Stop messing around Maybe I'm not very well read, or maybe I'm just plain thick, but could anyone tell me what is so special about "play" behaviour. I'm not sure how the things which we describe as play differ either mechinistically or functionally from simple forms of associative learning in the development of adaptive responses to the environment. I also have a bit of a problem with the use of play as a descriptive tool. Is it supposed to cover a discrete catagory of behaviour that is easily distinguished from other activities within the animals behavioural repertoire, or is it just a handle which we use for behaviour which looks like playing (as we might understand it in a vague its quite a good thing really sort of way)? The play-fight continuum is a pretty good example of this. At what point does the frolicking and jostling of piglets represent "play" and at what point does it represent "fight"? But then again some might say that we should never ponder Jonathan Cooper Animal Behaviour Research Group Department of Zoology South Parks Rd. Oxford OX1 3PS U.K. Tel 01865 271217 Fax 01865 310447 From: IN%"NZPZR009@SIVM.SI.EDU" "Kathy Carlstead" 15-NOV-1996 14:41:11.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: chlorine Does anybody know of any published or unpublished studies of the effect of chlorine cleansers (bleach) on the behavior of any mammals, especially ungulates? Kathy Carlstead National Zoological Park Smithsonian Institution Washington DC 20008 nzpzr009@sivm.si.edu