From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 1-NOV-1999 07:05:27.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cat suckling problem At 09:21 PM 10/31/1999 -0600, Jeanne Saddler wrote: >Have you tried putting some bad tasting preparation on your earlobes? You >may try mixing some alum and or red pepper into some patrolium jelly and >applying it to your ear lobes. > >H.U.G. Your dog! >Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) Might turn off the boyfriend/husband/lover too. Vivian and the blanket sucking dog ---- she's nine years old... Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"WayneH42@aol.com" 1-NOV-1999 10:36:48.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cat suckling problem If you decide to use something aversive, you might want to try underarm deodorant on your earlobes. It is less likely to be irritating to you. Wayne Hunthausen From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 1-NOV-1999 19:24:12.10 To: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu", IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" CC: IN%"chris@lovebirds.netlineuk.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: cat suckling problem I've tried lemon juice -- it made him lick his lips a couple of times, then he grabbed on, wincing but suckling. I tried vanilla extract, but it proved too fleeting -- the flavor disappeared very quickly. Is alum safe for cats to ingest? Red pepper is a good idea if it doesn't set my pierced ear lobes on fire!!!! Thanks for the ideas, Brenda Reed Cat Mom >From: Jeanne Saddler >To: Brenda Reed >CC: chris@lovebirds.netlineuk.net, applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: cat suckling problem >Date: Sun, 31 Oct 1999 21:21:59 -0600 (CST) > >Have you tried putting some bad tasting preparation on your earlobes? You >may try mixing some alum and or red pepper into some patrolium jelly and >applying it to your ear lobes. > >H.U.G. Your dog! >Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 1-NOV-1999 19:57:27.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cat suckling problem At 05:23 PM 11/01/1999 -0800, Brenda Reed wrote: >I've tried lemon juice -- it made him lick his lips a couple of times, then >he grabbed on, wincing but suckling. I tried vanilla extract, but it proved >too fleeting -- the flavor disappeared very quickly. > >Is alum safe for cats to ingest? > >Red pepper is a good idea if it doesn't set my pierced ear lobes on fire!!!! > >Thanks for the ideas, >Brenda Reed >Cat Mom There's a product called "bitter apple", available in pet stores, that should work. It was originally designed for dogs to be put on wounds so that the dog wouldn't lick them. That should work, and not hurt your pierced ear lobes. Good luck Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 1-NOV-1999 20:00:04.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cat suckling problem I just got a thought --- right after I posted about the bitter apple. There are two ways to solve the problem. Actually, to solve any problem. One is to make the ear lobes unpleasant. The other is to make something else pleasant enough to satisfy the cat. Have you tried a pacifier?? I wouldn't take the cat out in public with it, but it might work, and save your earlobes. Good luck, and please let us know. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 2-NOV-1999 05:07:52.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cat suckling problem? is it? ----- Original Message ----- From: Brenda Reed, Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 6:02 PM: > I'm willing to get chewed on for the next umph-teen years, but wonder if > there is a way to move him along developmentally without harming our > relationship. I don't want to drive him away as mother cats so often do to > kittens at weaning time. and from VIVIAN BREGMAN, Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 5:58 PM > I just got a thought --- right after I posted about the bitter apple. > > There are two ways to solve the problem. > Actually, to solve any problem. > One is to make the ear lobes unpleasant. > The other is to make something else pleasant enough to satisfy the cat. hello. i don't live with cats, don't know anything about 'em, but in the dog, i tend to pull back from work that imposes what the dam does for the human to do. seems like finding something else is better than doing something intentionally insulting to the cat. 3-4 months doesn't sound v. old; all the bitter sprays sure would push me away. my deerhounds were still chewing at 11 months. independent as they look to somebody like me, i should think anything that makes a bond with a cat to be something valued. respectfully, margory From: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" 2-NOV-1999 07:42:11.31 To: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" CC: IN%"chris@lovebirds.netlineuk.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: cat suckling problem On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Brenda Reed wrote: > > Is alum safe for cats to ingest? > > Red pepper is a good idea if it doesn't set my pierced ear lobes on fire!!!! > > Thanks for the ideas, > Brenda Reed Alum can be purchased in the spice aisle. It is a pickling agent as well as a chewing deterent and hemostat. Another approach is to employ some negative punishment and simply get up and leave the instant your cat touches its nose to your earlobe. H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 2-NOV-1999 08:34:53.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cat suckling problem At 07:41 AM 11/02/1999 -0600, Jeanne Saddler wrote: >On Mon, 1 Nov 1999, Brenda Reed wrote: >> >> Is alum safe for cats to ingest? >> >> Red pepper is a good idea if it doesn't set my pierced ear lobes on fire!!!! >> >> Thanks for the ideas, >> Brenda Reed > >Alum can be purchased in the spice aisle. It is a pickling agent as well >as a chewing deterent and hemostat. Another approach is to employ some >negative punishment and simply get up and leave the instant your cat >touches its nose to your earlobe. > > H.U.G. Your dog! >Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) JMO, but I feel that you would be better off finding something else for the cat to suck on, rather than stopping the sucking. I think that mammal babies need a certain amount of sucking. Ref: see any human baby. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"lboyle@MOOREPARK.TEAGASC.IE" 2-NOV-1999 13:51:04.82 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Address of Dr. Hans Spoolder If anyone out there knows the email address of Dr. Hans Spoolder I would really appreciate it if you could forward it to me. Thanks a million! Laura Pig Production Research Centre, Moorepark, Fermoy, Co. Cork, IRELAND. telephone: (+353) 025-42389 fax: (+353) 025-42340 email: Lboyle@Moorepark.Teagasc.ie From: IN%"deethom@erols.com" "Dee Thompson" 2-NOV-1999 18:03:18.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cat suckling problem? is it? I got a not quite 4 week old kitten that began to suckle on my slips as I dressed...I allowed it for a few minutes then would move her to continue dressing...It gradually ceased as she got to be about a year old...I assumed it was the early forced weaning and used the time for extra petting and and body massage...she lived with me for the next 19 years... so I think your earlobes will be fine in the future, but I'd try a baby pacifier poked between your fingers, cupping your hand over her face, to see if see'd satisfy her sucking needs that way.. I thought alum was toxic. Dee At 02:08 AM 11/2/99 -0800, you wrote: >----- Original Message ----- >From: Brenda Reed, Sent: Sunday, October 31, 1999 6:02 PM: > >> I'm willing to get chewed on for the next umph-teen years, but wonder if >> there is a way to move him along developmentally without harming our >> relationship. I don't want to drive him away as mother cats so often do >to >> kittens at weaning time. > >and > >from VIVIAN BREGMAN, Sent: Monday, November 01, 1999 5:58 PM > >> I just got a thought --- right after I posted about the bitter apple. >> >> There are two ways to solve the problem. >> Actually, to solve any problem. >> One is to make the ear lobes unpleasant. >> The other is to make something else pleasant enough to satisfy the cat. > >hello. >i don't live with cats, don't know anything about 'em, but in the dog, i >tend to pull back from work that imposes what the dam does for the human to >do. > >seems like finding something else is better than doing something >intentionally insulting to the cat. 3-4 months doesn't sound v. old; all >the bitter sprays sure would push me away. my deerhounds were still chewing >at 11 months. independent as they look to somebody like me, i should think >anything that makes a bond with a cat to be something valued. > >respectfully, >margory From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 2-NOV-1999 18:57:25.82 To: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: cat suckling problem On Tue, 02 Nov 1999 07:41:50 -0600 (CST) Jeanne Saddler writes: > Alum can be purchased in the spice aisle. It is a pickling agent as > well > as a chewing deterent and hemostat. It is also the active ingredient in underarm deoderant which Dr. Hunthausen suggested. ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM If there is no time like < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic the present, but we ! ! Middleburg Hts., Ohio don't have the time, .. 440.826.0013 is there no present? From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 2-NOV-1999 20:47:24.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: Nobel Prize Hi All A colleague and I were discussing ethology the other day. We know that von Frisch, Tinbergen and Lorenz shared a Nobel Prize in 1973, but can anybody help out with what the Prize was for? (We know it was for their work on elucidating various aspects of animal behaviour, but which 'category' was it?) Thanks in anticipation of your help. Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au tel: (0)7 4923 8200 fax: (0)7 4923 8222 From: IN%"hauss@iastate.edu" "Mark F Haussmann" 2-NOV-1999 21:35:44.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: nobel prize The category was "The Nobel Prize in Physiology or Medicine 1973" - and specifically they were awarded this for their discoveries concerning organization and elicitation of individual and social behaviour patterns. Hope that helps. Mark Haussmann >Hi All >A colleague and I were discussing ethology the other day. We know that von >Frisch, Tinbergen and Lorenz shared a Nobel Prize in 1973, but can anybody >help out with what the Prize was for? (We know it was for their work on >elucidating various aspects of animal behaviour, but which 'category' was >it?) > >Thanks in anticipation of your help. > >Carol > >"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way >its animals are treated." >Mahatma Gandhi > >Carol Petherick >Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) >Queensland Beef Industry Institute >Tropical Beef Centre >PO Box 5545 >Central Qld Mail Centre >Rockhampton >Qld 4702 >Australia > >email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au >tel: (0)7 4923 8200 >fax: (0)7 4923 8222 Mark F. Haussmann Iowa State University 2355 Kildee Hall Ames, IA 50011 hauss@iastate.edu 515-294-9093 From: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" 3-NOV-1999 02:23:21.22 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Nobel Prize Dear Carol The Nobel Prize to Karl von Frisch, Konrad Lorenz and Niko Tinbergen was for medicine. Best Wishes Don Professor D.M.Broom, Animal Welfare and Human-Animal Interactions Group, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Cambridge CB3 0ES, U.K. Telephone:44 (0)1223 337697.Fax:44 (0)1223 337610. From: IN%"Francien.deJonge@Users.ECO.WAU.NL" 3-NOV-1999 05:13:07.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Address of Dr. Hans Spoolder Here you are H.A.M.Spoolder@pv.agro.nl Francien de Jonge department of organic agriculture and society Haarweg 333 6709RZ Wageningen The Netherlands tel: 0031(0)317484448 fax: 0031(0)317484995 e-mail: francien.deJonge@users.eco.wau.nl From: IN%"lboyle@MOOREPARK.TEAGASC.IE" 3-NOV-1999 05:44:47.68 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Address I'd just like to say thanks to everyone who replied to my request for Dr. Spoolder's address! Laura Pig Production Research Centre, Moorepark, Fermoy, Co. Cork, IRELAND. telephone: (+353) 025-42389 fax: (+353) 025-42340 email: Lboyle@Moorepark.Teagasc.ie From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 3-NOV-1999 16:07:07.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: Nobel Prize Thanks to all those who replied to my query - it was for "Physiology and Medicine". Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au tel: (0)7 4923 8200 fax: (0)7 4923 8222 From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 4-NOV-1999 07:14:29.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: Gandhi Carol et al "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi I quote this too, but does anyone know when or where he said it? In other words, is there a proper reference for it? Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies in Agriculture & Resource Economics Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 4-NOV-1999 08:12:52.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi At 01:13 PM 11/04/1999 +0000, Mike Appleby wrote: >Carol et al > >"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by >the way its animals are treated." >Mahatma Gandhi > >I quote this too, but does anyone know when or where he said it? >In other words, is there a proper reference for it? > >Mike I'd love to know as well. My Bartlett's predates Gandhi. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, and animals, especially behavior --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" 4-NOV-1999 09:18:36.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi ? Carol, Mike, and other colleagues, When quoting Gandhi, beware of the limitation of this statement. Also Adolf Hitler loved dogs.... Bjarne At 13:13 04.11.99 +0000, Mike Appleby wrote: >Carol et al > >"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by >the way its animals are treated." >Mahatma Gandhi > >I quote this too, but does anyone know when or where he said it? >In other words, is there a proper reference for it? > >Mike > >Michael Appleby ********************************************************** Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) Associate Professor of Ethology Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 ********************************************************** From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 4-NOV-1999 10:50:48.77 To: IN%"bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi ? Hitler's love of dogs is not necessarily indicative of how animals in = general were treated in Germany during that period of time. Paul >>> "Bjarne O. Braastad" 11/04/99 11:18AM >>> Carol, Mike, and other colleagues, When quoting Gandhi, beware of the limitation of this statement. Also = Adolf Hitler loved dogs....=20 Bjarne At 13:13 04.11.99 +0000, Mike Appleby wrote: >Carol et al > >"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by=20 >the way its animals are treated." >Mahatma Gandhi > >I quote this too, but does anyone know when or where he said it? =20 >In other words, is there a proper reference for it? > >Mike > >Michael Appleby ********************************************************** Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) Associate Professor of Ethology Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no =20 fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 ********************************************************** From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 4-NOV-1999 10:59:14.56 To: IN%"bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Gandhi ? > When quoting Gandhi, beware of the limitation of this statement. Also Adolf > Hitler loved dogs.... > Bjarne Indeed. And the first more elaborate laws about animal welfare on this continent were promulgated by the nazi's. (I don't say these laws were not adequate. Their motorways were comfortable as well.) I sometimes wonder what's in the hearts of some animal right activists. Love seems very remote. I'm afraid the animal is only a pretext. There is an intersting chapter on this in Luc Ferry's "Le Nouvel Ordre Ecologique". It also often happens that, within a given movement, aggression from the extreme is very strong against the moderates or against any "other" tendency. In french one calls this he phenomenon of the "chapel's quarrels". Tendencies within communism, within christianity, within nazism, etc. murdered each other with maybe more passion than they fought the complete opposite opinion. How many of us working on welfare have not been attacked and have had nasty experiences with some animal rights activists? In this country, people with good intentions tried to unite shelters in order to use just one tel number for lost and found animals. Impossible. "I love animals more than you do!". "I am more pure than you...". May I suggest a new prayer: Oh God, save us from holiness and beliefs. Let us learn to live with doubts. Frank Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" 4-NOV-1999 15:05:16.82 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: Brewster (fwd) H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- > My uncle was in the fertilized egg business when I was > young. He had several hundred young layers, called pullets, > and 8 or 10 roosters whose job was to fertilize the eggs. > My uncle kept records and any rooster or pullet that didn't > perform well went into the pot and was replaced. Now this > took an awful lot of time. So when my uncle saw a set of > eight tiny bells that each rang a different tone he > promptly bought them. > > He glued a piece of foam rubber to each clapper shaft > so the bell wouldn't ring except when violently shaken. > He hung a bell on each rooster's neck and went and > mixed a Mint Julep. Now he could sit on the porch and > sip while filling out an efficiency report on the > roosters by listening to the different tones of the > bells and marking down each encounter. My uncle's > favorite rooster was old Brewster. Brewster was a fine > specimen, but his bell didn't ring all morning. Uncle > went to investigate. > > Several roosters were chasing pullets, bells a-ringing. > Brewster had his bell in his beak so it couldn't ring. He'd > sneak up on a pullet, do his job and walk on to the > next one. Chagrined at first, Uncle was soon so proud > of Brewster he entered him in the county fair. > > Brewster was an overnight sensation. They not only > awarded him the No Bell prize but also the Pullet > Surprise. From: IN%"serpell@vet.upenn.edu" "James Serpell" 4-NOV-1999 15:05:28.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Gandhi and Hitler According to Jon Wynne-Tyson's "The Extended Circle: An Anthology of Humane Thought" the Gandhi quote comes from "The Moral Basis of Vegetarianism." No date is provided, and it is unclear whether this was a book or pamphlet. In the subsequent lines of the same passge Gandhi goes on to write that "Vivisection is the blackest of all the black crimes that man is at present committing against God and His fair creation." Rather an extreme view, given the apalling human rights violations that existed at the time. As a student in England, Gandhi was strongly influenced by the British animal rights philosopher, Henry Salt, who was also opposed to meat-eating and vivisection. Regarding Hitler and the Nazis' attitudes to animals, I strongly recommend Arluke and Sax's excellent study in Anthrozo=F6s, 5(1), 6-31, 1992. James Serpell ___________________________________________________________________ Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society, Dept. of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Tel: (215) 898-1004 3900 Delancey Street, Fax: (215) 573-6050 Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010, USA serpell@vet.upenn.edu http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/ From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 4-NOV-1999 17:09:19.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi Dear All, I am forwarding a message sent to me by Ernest Olfert. He was having trouble sending his message directly to the applied-ethology network. If any of you are having trouble posting a message on applied-ethology, then chances are that the e-mail address you are using to send a message is not the exact same address that is subscribed to the list. Sometimes your server will redirect messages to your mail box that have been sent to you with some minor differences in your address (that is why you may receive applied-ethology messages), but the applied-ethology network will not post a message unless it comes from a subscribed address! Anyway, the important part of this message from E. Olfert follows. Joe Stookey ---------------------------------------------------------------- Hi. In a book I have, this statement by Gandhi is listed as coming from "The Moral Basis of Vegetarianism". No date / publisher listed. I don't know if it is a book or an essay amongst his writings. I couldn't find any such title among our library's listings under Gandhi, so maybe its part of an essay / speech he gave?? The cited statement goes on to say (from my book, not the original source so cannot attest to its authenticity...): ------------- The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated. Vivisection is the blackest of all the black crimes that man is at present committing against God and His fair creation. It ill becomes us to invoke in our daily prayers the blessings of God, the Compassionate, if we in turn will not practice elementary comapssion towards our fellow creatures. -------------- Hmm, nothing ambiguous about his view of animal experimentation. Wonder why Gandhi would throw that in (about vivisection) in a discussion of vegetarianism? -- Bye for now. Ernest D. Olfert Ernest D. Olfert, DVM, MSc Director, Animal Resources Centre University of Saskatchewan 120 Maintenance Road Saskatoon, SK S7N 5C4 Canada telephone: 306-966-4124 fax: 306-966-8850 email: ernest.olfert@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 4-NOV-1999 23:31:46.37 To: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "'Mike Appleby'", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi Mike, I 'stole' it from you (in 'Animal Welfare'). Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Mike Appleby [SMTP:mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk] > Sent: Thursday, November 04, 1999 11:14 PM > To: applied-ethology@usask.ca > Subject: Gandhi > > Carol et al > > "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by > the way its animals are treated." > Mahatma Gandhi > > I quote this too, but does anyone know when or where he said it? > In other words, is there a proper reference for it? > > Mike > > > > Michael Appleby > > Dr M.C. Appleby > Director of Postgraduate Studies > in Agriculture & Resource Economics > Institute of Ecology and Resource Management > University of Edinburgh > West Mains Road > Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK > Tel. +44 131 535 4098 > Fax. +44 131 667 2601 > Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk > or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 4-NOV-1999 23:33:25.97 To: IN%"bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no" "'Bjarne O. Braastad'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi ? Bjarne A colleague pointed this out to me - he said that Germany had very high standards for animal welfare in the 1930s and 1940s!! Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Bjarne O. Braastad [SMTP:bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no] > Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 2:18 AM > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Gandhi ? > > Carol, Mike, and other colleagues, > > When quoting Gandhi, beware of the limitation of this statement. Also > Adolf > Hitler loved dogs.... > > Bjarne > > At 13:13 04.11.99 +0000, Mike Appleby wrote: > >Carol et al > > > >"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by > >the way its animals are treated." > >Mahatma Gandhi > > > >I quote this too, but does anyone know when or where he said it? > >In other words, is there a proper reference for it? > > > >Mike > > > >Michael Appleby > > > > ********************************************************** > Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) > Associate Professor of Ethology > Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, > N-1432 Aas, Norway > e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no > fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 > > ********************************************************** From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 4-NOV-1999 23:55:52.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: William James Hello Everyone, I've been searching for the origin and context of the following quote attributed to William James: "Marvellous as may be the power of my dog to understand my moods, deathless as is his affection and fidelity, his mental state is as unsolved a mystery to me as it was to my remotest ancestor." Anyone know where this passage can be found. Thanks. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA From: IN%"Nia.Ball@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Nia Ball" 5-NOV-1999 04:28:13.48 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: introduction Dear All, Just a quick introduction; my name is Nia Ball and, having completed a Masters in 'Applied Animal Behaviour & Animal Welfare', I am now beginning a studentship looking at 'The Genetics of Behavioural Traits in Cattle'. The aim of the project is to characterise behavioural traits which are relevant to animal production and welfare, so that the locations of the contributing genes may be mapped. Looking forward to participating in the network! Cheers, Nia Nia Ball BSc MSc Division of Environment and Welfare Roslin Institute Roslin Midlothian Scotland EH25 9PS 0131 527 4328 nia.ball@bbsrc.ac.uk From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 5-NOV-1999 10:00:37.90 To: IN%"bregman@interactive.net", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cat Suckling "Situation," Part II >Thank you to everyone who wrote for your suggestions on how to deal with my >kitten Stanley's need to suckle -- my ear lobes. I am going to hold on record all the aversive stimulus suggestions. But for now I'm going to let him "suckle it out," having become somewhat convinced that not only will he probably stop on his own, but that he may need this behavior for physical and social maturity. I realize that I may be setting myself up for a lifetime of listening to purring and smacking of cat lips. But if Konrad Lorenz could endure having chewed worms stuffed into his mouth and ears by one of the little birds he studied, I can aspire in my own small way to become known as the ethologist who gained a pair of leather-tough earlobes in the pursuit of knowledge. Thanks again for so many helpful insights and ideas. Brenda Reed ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 5-NOV-1999 10:04:16.07 To: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us", IN%"bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi ? Hello -- Hitler used his dog Blondi and her puppies to test the poison that he planned to kill himself with, but he chose a gun instead. Hitler also seemed to be fond of children. Another observation, Brenda Reed >From: Paul Carella >To: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no, applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re: Gandhi ? >Date: Thu, 04 Nov 1999 11:12:47 -0500 > >Hitler's love of dogs is not necessarily indicative of how animals in >general were treated in Germany during that period of time. > >Paul > > >>> "Bjarne O. Braastad" 11/04/99 11:18AM >>> >Carol, Mike, and other colleagues, > >When quoting Gandhi, beware of the limitation of this statement. Also Adolf >Hitler loved dogs.... > >Bjarne > >At 13:13 04.11.99 +0000, Mike Appleby wrote: > >Carol et al > > > >"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by > >the way its animals are treated." > >Mahatma Gandhi > > > >I quote this too, but does anyone know when or where he said it? > >In other words, is there a proper reference for it? > > > >Mike > > > >Michael Appleby > > > >********************************************************** >Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) >Associate Professor of Ethology >Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, >N-1432 Aas, Norway >e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no >fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 > >********************************************************** > > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"Joanne.Warlow@students.dmu.ac.uk" 5-NOV-1999 10:09:50.88 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Questionnaire I am researching animal wefare issues and would be most grateful if you could fill in the following questionnaire and e-mail it back to me. It will only take a minute. Thanks. Name (optional): Gender: Age Group: under 25 - 25 - 40 - 40 - 55 - 55 + - Profession / Area of research: What areas of research do you feel are most important? (Please number 1 to 13 in order of priority). Animal welfare, rights and ethics - Environmental enrichment - Wildlife conservation - Human-animal interactions - Aggression - Mother-infant interactions - Social behaviour - Memory,learning and cognition - Communication - Foraging behaviour - Developmental behaviour - Stress and physiology - Animal management - Would you like a copy of the results? - Thanks once again, Joanne Warlow De Montfort University, Caythorpe Court, Caythorpe, Grantham, Lincs, NG32 3EP. From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 5-NOV-1999 12:09:07.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: questionaire Hi! I had a system failure during opening the e-mail with the questionnaire. Will the person who sent it please send me another e- mail. Thanks. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 5-NOV-1999 12:09:09.29 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: stomach stretch receptors Hi all! 1. Do dogs have stretch receptors on their stomach? 2. If so, is their physiology different from other groups (i.e. Why do dogs seem insatiable). 3. If there is indeed a difference in their stretch receptors, is this type of stretch receptor seen in other canids or even in a larger group of animals such as "most scavengers". Or perhaps in camel-like creatures who can apparently drink very large quantities of water at once. Chantal :-) From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 5-NOV-1999 14:23:43.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Calling your dog (via the telephone) Dear All, Gosh, I hate starting a discussion about dogs, but I heard this on the radio this morning and thought it was funny, plus it represents a unique research project just waiting to be carried out! The radio announcer claimed to have read somewhere that 1 out of 3 dog owners in North America admit to having called home at least once while they were away to leave a message on the answering machine so the dog could hear their voice. I have this bizarre mental picture of a dog sitting at home alone when suddenly the phone rings, the answering machine kicks on and the master's voice begins giving praise and greetings to the dog! Does anyone else think this is funny? How would the dog react? Is this something the dog would enjoy or would it only frustrate and make the dog more anxious? I suggest some of you students who are still looking for a thesis project should set up your home video system and give this a try! Then get back to me and let me know what happens. I don't have an answering machine! If anyone ever does complete a project like this, don't quote me for the accuracy of the radio announcer's ramblings. I have not a clue where (of if) he read anything like this! F.I.L.M. your dog! Sincerely, Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.CA" "Nora Lewis" 5-NOV-1999 16:21:53.87 To: IN%"cgaboury@total.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Anim. Behav. Sci." CC: Subj: RE: stomach stretch receptors Chantal, Sorry, no idea about stretch receptors. It seems to me that an animal which hunts and kills large prey in groups, eats to satiation, then rests before the next hunt would be at a definite advanage to be able to eat large amounts then digest over time (few stretch receptors?). If however they are eating small animals such as mice over a period of time the lack of stretch receptors would not be an advantage. I thought this was a secondary mechanism for satiation with other factors being more important. Nora Chantal Gaboury wrote: > Hi all! > > 1. Do dogs have stretch receptors on their stomach? > 2. If so, is their physiology different from other groups (i.e. Why do > dogs seem insatiable). > 3. If there is indeed a difference in their stretch receptors, is this > type of stretch receptor seen in other canids or even in a larger group > of animals such as "most scavengers". Or perhaps in camel-like creatures > who can apparently drink very large quantities of water at once. > > Chantal :-) -- Nora Lewis, Ph.D., DVM Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.CA" "Nora Lewis" 5-NOV-1999 16:27:29.03 To: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Anim. Behav. Sci." CC: Subj: RE: Cat Suckling "Situation," Part II Brenda, My cat was also a wool and human sucker. I also didn't want to use anything aversive so I gradually moved her from delicate skin to tougher skined areas on my arm. She seemed to think this was fine and eventually stopped altogether. After a traumatic experience in her life (aquisition of two outside dogs) she started overgrooming her hips and now has a crew cut. It seems that this behaviour then may lie dormant and return. Nora Brenda Reed wrote: > >Thank you to everyone who wrote for your suggestions on how to deal with my > >kitten Stanley's need to suckle -- my ear lobes. > > I am going to hold on record all the aversive stimulus suggestions. But for > now I'm going to let him "suckle it out," having become somewhat convinced > that not only will he probably stop on his own, but that he may need this > behavior for physical and social maturity. I realize that I may be setting > myself up for a lifetime of listening to purring and smacking of cat lips. > But if Konrad Lorenz could endure having chewed worms stuffed into his mouth > and ears by one of the little birds he studied, I can aspire in my own small > way to become known as the ethologist who gained a pair of leather-tough > earlobes in the pursuit of knowledge. > > Thanks again for so many helpful insights and ideas. > > Brenda Reed > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com -- Nora Lewis, Ph.D., DVM Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 5-NOV-1999 17:16:03.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Calling your dog (via the telephone) At 02:28 PM 11/05/1999 -0700, Dr. Joseph M. Stookey wrote: >Dear All, > >Gosh, I hate starting a discussion about dogs, but I heard this on the >radio this morning and thought it was funny, plus it represents a unique >research project just waiting to be carried out! The radio announcer >claimed to have read somewhere that 1 out of 3 dog owners in North >America admit to having called home at least once while they were away >to leave a message on the answering machine so the dog could hear their >voice. I have this bizarre mental picture of a dog sitting at home >alone when suddenly the phone rings, the answering machine kicks on and >the master's voice begins giving praise and greetings to the dog! Does >anyone else think this is funny? How would the dog react? Is this >something the dog would enjoy or would it only frustrate and make the >dog more anxious? I know from the kennel where I board my dogs, that owners send cards to the dogs, in envelopes, that the dog is then permitted to sniff. I know this because they asked me if I were going to do it. They had to repeat it twice. Didn't believe it the first time. Didn't do it, either. But I may call home when the poor things are home alone.......... May I have permission to repost to one or more of the dog training lists? Vivian (laughing) Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, and animals, especially behavior --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"Dragolin5@aol.com" 5-NOV-1999 22:55:54.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi ? I think you have drifted from Gandhi's message... His statement did not say that the morality of a nation is reflected in how it's political leader treats his pets.... Rather it is reflected in the general attitude toward both domesticates and animal wildlife. Keeping things in perspective, sloanie From: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" 6-NOV-1999 10:03:53.85 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" "Dr. Joseph M. Stookey" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Calling your dog (via the telephone) I once had occasion to train a dog to respond to tape recorded commands from its owner. The initial response to the tape was what I would have expected from any dog learning to respond to a new handler. I would "guess" that in the absence of other cues, like the actual presence of the owner, the dog might be interested but not necessarily recognize that the noise on the answering machine is its owner's voice. H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 8-NOV-1999 08:16:38.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RE: Gandhi ? I read once a particularly depressing book titled "Hitler's Willing Executioners". Apparently, the Nazi's formed squads of quasi- police forces which moved into occupied areas of Poland, Russia etc, following the regular army. Their task, basically, was to hunt out and kill all the Jews and other undesirables. There are=20 harrowing tales of 9 year old girls being shot in the head and dumped in rubbish dumps by these "people". Their other task was to police animal welfare regulations, ensuring that beef cattle were not stocked at too high a density during transport, encouraging dog owners to take sick dogs to the vet and so forth. The world is complicated. As for the moral basis of vegetarianism, India doesn't strike me as a shining beacon of peace and moral tranquillity.=20 Jeff Rushen >>> "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 11/05 12:30 am = >>> Bjarne A colleague pointed this out to me - he said that Germany had very high standards for animal welfare in the 1930s and 1940s!! Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Bjarne O. Braastad [SMTP:bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no]=20 > Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 2:18 AM > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca=20 > Subject: Re: Gandhi ? >=20 > Carol, Mike, and other colleagues, >=20 > When quoting Gandhi, beware of the limitation of this statement. Also > Adolf > Hitler loved dogs....=20 >=20 > Bjarne >=20 > At 13:13 04.11.99 +0000, Mike Appleby wrote: > >Carol et al > > > >"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by=20 > >the way its animals are treated." > >Mahatma Gandhi > > > >I quote this too, but does anyone know when or where he said it? =20 > >In other words, is there a proper reference for it? > > > >Mike > > > >Michael Appleby >=20 >=20 >=20 > ********************************************************** > Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) > Associate Professor of Ethology > Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box = 5025, > N-1432 Aas, Norway > e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no =20 > fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 >=20 > ********************************************************** From: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" 8-NOV-1999 09:52:00.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Gunther Marx Does anyone have an email address for Gunther Marx (FAL, Germany)? The address I have listed in the ISAE directory does not work. Gunther, if you are lurking on the list please contact me. I would like to send you an attachment. Thank you! Janice Swanson From: IN%"GPQUINLAN@aol.com" 8-NOV-1999 11:15:52.59 To: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu", IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Calling your dog (via the telephone) In a message dated 11/6/99 8:15:41 AM, myriad@ksu.edu writes: << I once had occasion to train a dog to respond to tape recorded commands from its owner. The initial response to the tape was what I would have expected from any dog learning to respond to a new handler. I would "guess" that in the absence of other cues, like the actual presence of the owner, the dog might be interested but not necessarily recognize that the noise on the answering machine is its owner's voice. H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) >> Jeanne, I don't know about answering machines but I can share something that happened with the use of TV. I use to do a local TV News spot about training tips of family pets. Whenever I did a show, a couple of clients called me the next day to inform me about their dogs' response. The dogs may be in the room or not but would get up and approach the television once they heard my voice. I would be training a dog at the studio and my clients dogs would respond to the commands at home. We joked about trying a "Sit across Bend"" using all my students dogs at once to see what would happen. Answering machines don't have the same tone and we have tried it just by the telephone with mixed responses. My TV and radio spots do get reactions from some dogs. George Phillip Quinlan All About Dogs Behavior Center PO BOX 7781 Bend Or 97708-7781 541-388-8145 From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 8-NOV-1999 12:44:29.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Calling your dog (via the telephone) I will share an experience relevant to the discussion. I work part time for PAWS With A Cause (a nonprofit organization that trains mobility assist dogs, etc http://www.pawswithacause.org/). I had a client in a wheelchair that couldn't speak and thus used a computerized speech board; press a key and it would "speak" a predefined phrase. We had some trouble with the training. The person who did the majority of the training tried to speak in a computer synthesized voice. It didn't work. When the dog was shipped to me (to bring to the client), it just didn't "listen" to the speech board. I began to have my doubts. So I fooled around with a walky talky with my own demo dog (http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/lobo/Loboact.htm). I put him in a room with the walky talky on the floor. I left the room and had a person watch him that I could see (I am at one end of the house and he is at the other so that we cannot hear or see each other. When I gave basic position commands through the walky-talky he oriented to the device and obeyed the commands. This made me more optimistic that the speech board thing would be doable. I shipped the dog back and PAWS got their own speech board to retrain the dog. It worked. The dog has been a happy worker for over two years now. Be well, Mark Dog Training Site - http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm ----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- ----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- ----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- ----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 8-NOV-1999 21:12:34.61 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: RE: Gandhi ? Hello, all. I remember that when I read the Colditz WWII P.O.W. memoirs there was one prisoner who had a kitten. The kitten grew into a handsome tabby cat and one day it disappeared. It turned out that the prisoner owner had killed and eaten it. The very interesting thing about this story is that the Germans punished him for "eating a German cat" by putting him in solitary. Brenda >From: Jeff Rushen >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re: RE: Gandhi ? >Date: Mon, 08 Nov 1999 09:11:29 -0500 > >I read once a particularly depressing book titled "Hitler's Willing >Executioners". Apparently, the Nazi's formed squads of quasi- >police forces which moved into occupied areas of Poland, Russia >etc, following the regular army. Their task, basically, was to hunt >out and kill all the Jews and other undesirables. There are >harrowing tales of 9 year old girls being shot in the head and >dumped in rubbish dumps by these "people". Their other task >was to police animal welfare regulations, ensuring that beef >cattle were not stocked at too high a density during transport, >encouraging dog owners to take sick dogs to the vet and so >forth. The world is complicated. > >As for the moral basis of vegetarianism, India doesn't strike me >as a shining beacon of peace and moral tranquillity. > >Jeff Rushen > >>> "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 11/05 12:30 am > >>> >Bjarne >A colleague pointed this out to me - he said that Germany had very high >standards for animal welfare in the 1930s and 1940s!! >Carol > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Bjarne O. Braastad [SMTP:bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no] > > Sent: Friday, November 05, 1999 2:18 AM > > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > Subject: Re: Gandhi ? > > > > Carol, Mike, and other colleagues, > > > > When quoting Gandhi, beware of the limitation of this statement. Also > > Adolf > > Hitler loved dogs.... > > > > Bjarne > > > > At 13:13 04.11.99 +0000, Mike Appleby wrote: > > >Carol et al > > > > > >"The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by > > >the way its animals are treated." > > >Mahatma Gandhi > > > > > >I quote this too, but does anyone know when or where he said it? > > >In other words, is there a proper reference for it? > > > > > >Mike > > > > > >Michael Appleby > > > > > > > > ********************************************************** > > Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) > > Associate Professor of Ethology > > Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box >5025, > > N-1432 Aas, Norway > > e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no > > fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 > > > > ********************************************************** > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 9-NOV-1999 01:38:28.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi ? Is it just me... or is anyone else on this list having a hard time watching a group of intelligent people reduce the lifework of Gandhi to a cheap and irrelevant comparison of Nazi schizophrenia? Donna Reynolds (ever amused) > >As for the moral basis of vegetarianism, India doesn't strike me > >as a shining beacon of peace and moral tranquillity. > > > >Jeff Rushen From: IN%"sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch" 9-NOV-1999 02:07:59.09 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dogs eat feces Hi you all: At the guide dog school in Switzerland they have a problem with their labrador retrievers eating their own or other dogs' feces. This school has been breeding and training labrador retrievers as guide dogs for blind people since 1972. Lately, this new problem of feces-eating dogs arrived and the dog trainers have no clue about the reasons. They suspected a change in dog food (maybe companies started to use flavors that pass the dogs' intestines and make feces attractive to dogs to eat). The feed commercial dog food, but a change to meat and (commercial flakes) did not help. The pups are raised at the school, then placed into foster homes and return at the age of 15 months. Then they are kept in kennels during their training. That is when the behavior starts. The dogs cannot be prevented eating the feces without great force and otherwise suitable dogs had to be excluded from the program. My questions: Has anybody noticed an increase urge of dogs eating dog feces? Does anybody have a suggestion of a solution to this problem? I would forward your ideas to the guiding school. Sabine Gebhardt sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 9-NOV-1999 03:25:11.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: dogs eat faeces This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_uk3KxjdOvtQ8II3IPgZgDw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Possible causes? if the dogs live in a barren environment during training then they may = start to experiment with eating/playing with their own faeces. This can become = a vice. If people regularly rush to stop them it could become a reliable method = of getting attention. Their may be some problem of digesting the food that is being used, so = there may be something attractive about the flavour of the stools. My concenr would be that punishment and use of repellents added to the = food might reduce the problem but not deal with the true cause. Sounds like we need a lot more information about the conditions these = dogs live in at kennels. How old are they when they are kennelled? What toys/methods of environmental enrichment are used with them? How are they socialised? Are they group housed? At what age do the dogs start to eat faeces? Best wishes, Jon --Boundary_(ID_uk3KxjdOvtQ8II3IPgZgDw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Possible causes?

if the dogs live in a barren = environment during training then they may start
to experiment with=20 eating/playing with their own faeces. This can become = a
vice.

If=20 people regularly rush to stop them it could become a reliable method=20 of
getting attention.

Their may be some problem of digesting = the food=20 that is being used, so there
may be something attractive about the = flavour of=20 the stools.

My concenr would be that punishment and use of = repellents=20 added to the food
might reduce the problem but not deal with the true = cause.

Sounds like we need a lot more information about the = conditions=20 these dogs
live in at kennels.

How old are they when they are=20 kennelled?
What toys/methods of environmental enrichment are used = with=20 them?
How are they socialised?
Are they group housed?
At what = age do=20 the dogs start to eat faeces?

Best=20 wishes,

Jon
--Boundary_(ID_uk3KxjdOvtQ8II3IPgZgDw)-- From: IN%"sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch" 9-NOV-1999 03:45:30.77 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: AW: dogs eat feces Hi Jon: Those dogs return to the kennels at an age of 15 months after being raised at foster homes. It is important to know that all methods of raising, keeping, and training the dogs have not changed for more than 25 years, but the problem of feces-eating dogs is new and increasing. This annoying behavior persists after those dogs are placed in new homes, but it first starts when the dogs return to the school. It could be an interaction between the husbandry (kennel environment, availability of feces, etc.) and some other factor that has arisen recently. The dog trainers are willing to make changes within their capabilities (switch food, etc.), but they cannot e.g. place those dogs into families during training, or make more elaborate changes. Best wishes, Sabine -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Jon Bowen [mailto:rondog@btinternet.com] Gesendet am: Dienstag, 9. November 1999 10:12 An: sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch Betreff: Re: dogs eat feces Possible causes? if the dogs live in a barren environment during training then they may start to experiment with eating/playing with their own faeces. This can become a vice. If people regularly rush to stop them it could become a reliable method of getting attention. Their may be some problem of digesting the food that is being used, so there may be something attractive about the flavour of the stools. My concenr would be that punishment and use of repellents added to the food might reduce the problem but not deal with the true cause. Sounds like we need a lot more information about the conditions these dogs live in at kennels. How old are they when they are kennelled? What toys/methods of environmental enrichment are used with them? How are they socialised? Are they group housed? At what age do the dogs start to eat faeces? Best wishes, Jon From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 9-NOV-1999 05:47:57.73 To: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: RE: Gandhi ? Brenda Reed wrote: > The very interesting thing about this story is that the Germans > punished him for "eating a German cat" by putting him in solitary. This sentence bothers me. It may be as a result of feeling held personally responsible for something that happened a long time before I was born, but I am getting increasingly worried about the more general tendency to generalise from the actions of a few to an entire population. "The Germans" punished him. I am German. Therefore I'm part of it. But I am not. How can I explain that to you? A few weeks ago I read the story of German-bashing in an English school. A little boy was bullied by his class 'mates' for having a German name. Presumably he had to hear about 'The War', and the nazis etc. What the bullies didn't know or didn't care about was that the boy had a German name because his grandparents had had to leave Germany in the thirties to save their lives. Another example is the recent 'beef war' between Britain and France. An independent food safety agency gives advice on beef and an apple producer goes bankrupt. The only thing in common: both the agency and the apple producer are French. Please be careful when you generalise. Hans ********************************************* Dr Hans Erhard Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Tel.: +44 (0)1224 - 318611 Fax.: +44 (0)1224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 9-NOV-1999 05:52:42.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi ? At 12:30 AM 11/09/1999 +0000, Donna Reynolds wrote: >Is it just me... >or is anyone else on this list having a hard time >watching a group of intelligent people reduce the lifework of Gandhi >to a cheap and irrelevant comparison of Nazi schizophrenia? > >Donna Reynolds >(ever amused) I am amused by the byways that people get into. Fascinating aspect of lists. and people. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, and animals, especially behavior --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"lepape@univ-tours.fr" "LE PAPE" 9-NOV-1999 07:04:47.25 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Mail overflow To all, would it be possible that answers were directed only to people asking questions ? Thank you for limiting the overflow of E. Mails. Gilles LE PAPE Ethology TOURS (France) From: IN%"TPell@compuserve.com" "Tom Pelletier" 9-NOV-1999 07:20:57.36 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "(unknown)" Subj: List Info - List Manager Could the list manager please repost information about this list, i.e., h= ow to send messages, how to unsubscribe, etc? Thanks, Tom Pelletier tpell@compuserve.com 11/9/99 From: IN%"pajor@purdue.edu" "Edmond Pajor" 9-NOV-1999 08:03:29.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Post-doc position available Post-Doctoral Position in Applied Ethology and Welfare A post-doctoral position in applied ethology is available in the Department of Animal Sciences, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, USA. The successful applicant will be expected to work in one of the following areas: 1. The effects of molting practices on poultry behavior and welfare. Note that priority will be given to applicants wanting to work in this area. 2. The role of human-animal interactions on animal welfare and productivity in swine or dairy cattle. Purdue is a state-assisted university with more than 36,000 students at the West Lafayette campus. West Lafayette is located approximately 66 miles north-west of Indianapolis and 116 miles south-east of Chicago. Additional information regarding the Department of Animal Sciences can be accessed at http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/ The USDA-ARS Livestock Behavior Research Unit is also located at Purdue. The successful applicant will have the opportunity and be encouraged to collaborate with USDA scientists. Additional information regarding the USDA-ARS Livestock Behavior Research Unit can be accessed at http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/usda/index.htm The successful applicant will have a Ph.D. in domestic animal behavior. This will be a one-year appointment that will be renewed for a second year pending a satisfactory performance appraisal. Starting date is somewhat flexible and could begin as early as January, 2000. Salary is fixed at $25,500 plus benefits for the first year and $26,500 for the second year. Screening of applicants will continue until the position is filled. Interested applicants should send a current curriculum vitae, reprints, and names, addresses and phone numbers of two persons who may be contacted for letters of recommendation to: Dr Ed Pajor Department of Animal Sciences Purdue University 1026 Poultry Building West Lafayette, Indiana 47907-1026 USA Tel: 765-496-6665 Fax: 765-494-9347 Email: pajor@purdue.edu Purdue University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer Ed Pajor, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Animal Sciences Purdue University 1026 Poultry Science Bldg. West Lafayette, Indiana 47907-1026 U.S.A. Tel: 765-496-6665 Fax: 765-494-9347 Email: pajor@purdue.edu From: IN%"pajor@purdue.edu" "Edmond Pajor" 9-NOV-1999 08:11:21.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: MS student - Dairy behaviour stipend --Boundary_(ID_xoILDPilvGTmhsRaWX4Mgg) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MS Graduate Student Assistantship in Dairy Cattle Behavior A MS graduate student stipend is available to study dairy cattle behavior with Dr. Susan Eicher-Pruiett (USDA-ARS, Livestock Behavior Research Unit) and Dr. Ed Pajor in the Department of Animal Sciences, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, USA. Dr. Susan Eicher-Pruiett is a research scientist at the USDA-ARS Livestock Behavior Research Unit and an adjunct faculty member in the Department of Animal Sciences. Dr. Ed Pajor is an assistant professor in the Department of Animal Sciences. The successful applicant will be involved in research to determine the behavioral and immunological indicators of animal welfare and to investigate management practices that affect animal welfare. A co-operative approach with an inter-disciplinary team is required Requirements: 1. The successful applicant will have a BS in animal science or biology and have a strong interest in both animal behavior and immunology. 2. All applicants must meet the entry requirements of the Purdue University Graduate School 3. All applicants are required to take the aptitude test section of the Graduate Record Examination (GRE). 4. Applicants must qualify for a departmental assistantship. 5. Applicants whose native language is not English are required to submit official test results of the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) and the Test of Written English (TWE) or Essay Rating. A minimum TOEFL score of 550 (paper based) or 213 (computer based) is required for admission consideration. 6. Applicants should posses strong organizational, communication, and interpersonal skills Application procedure: 1) interested applicants should contact Dr. Ed Pajor Department of Animal Sciences Purdue University, 1026 Poultry Building West Lafayette, IN 47907-1026 phone 765-496-6665; fax 765-494-9347; E-mail pajor@purdue.edu or Dr. Susan Pruiett USDA-ARS MDW Room 216, Poultry Building Purdue University West Lafayette, Indiana phone :496-3665 spruiett@purdue.edu 2) Applications can be made electronically http://www.purdue.edu/GradSchool/gradhome.htm or contact Graduate Studies Office, Department of Animal Sciences, 1151 Lilly Hall, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, 479071151 for an application package. Additional information regarding the Department of Animal Sciences and its graduate program can be accessed at http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/ Additional information regarding the USDA-ARS Livestock Behavior Research Unit can be accessed at http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/usda/index.htm Purdue is a state-assisted university with more than 36,000 students at its West Lafayette campus. West Lafayette is located approximately 66 miles north-west of Indianapolis and 116 miles south-east of Chicago. Applications will be received until the position is filled. Purdue University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Ed Pajor, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Animal Sciences Purdue University 1026 Poultry Science Bldg. West Lafayette, Indiana 47907-1026 U.S.A. Tel: 765-496-6665 Fax: 765-494-9347 Email: pajor@purdue.edu --Boundary_(ID_xoILDPilvGTmhsRaWX4Mgg) Content-type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" MS Graduate Student Assistantship in Dairy Cattle Behavior

A MS graduate student stipend is available to study dairy cattle behavior with Dr. Susan Eicher-Pruiett (USDA-ARS, Livestock Behavior Research Unit) and Dr. Ed Pajor in the Department of Animal Sciences, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, USA.

Dr. Susan Eicher-Pruiett is a research scientist at the USDA-ARS Livestock Behavior Research Unit and an adjunct faculty member in the Department of Animal Sciences.  Dr. Ed Pajor is an assistant professor in the Department of Animal Sciences.

The successful applicant will be involved in research to determine the behavioral and immunological indicators of animal welfare and to investigate management practices that affect animal welfare.  A co-operative approach with an inter-disciplinary team is required

Requirements:

1. The successful applicant will have a BS in animal science or biology and have a strong interest in both animal behavior and immunology.
2. All applicants must meet the entry requirements of the Purdue University Graduate School
3. All applicants are required to take the aptitude test section of the Graduate Record
    Examination (GRE).
4. Applicants must qualify for a departmental assistantship.
5. Applicants whose native language is not English are required to submit official test results of      the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) and the Test of Written English (TWE) or      Essay Rating. A minimum TOEFL score of 550 (paper based) or 213 (computer based) is      required for admission consideration.
6. Applicants should posses strong organizational, communication, and interpersonal skills
                                
Application procedure:

1) interested applicants should contact

Dr. Ed Pajor
Department of Animal Sciences
Purdue University, 1026 Poultry Building
West Lafayette, IN 47907-1026
phone 765-496-6665;
fax 765-494-9347;
E-mail  pajor@purdue.edu

or

Dr. Susan Pruiett
USDA-ARS MDW
Room 216, Poultry Building
Purdue University
West Lafayette, Indiana
phone :496-3665
spruiett@purdue.edu

2) Applications can be made electronically  http://www.purdue.edu/GradSchool/gradhome.htm
or  contact  Graduate Studies Office, Department of Animal Sciences, 1151 Lilly Hall, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, 479071151 for an application package.

Additional information regarding the Department of Animal Sciences and its graduate program can be accessed at  http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/

Additional information regarding the USDA-ARS Livestock Behavior Research Unit can be accessed at http://ag.ansc.purdue.edu/usda/index.htm

Purdue is a state-assisted university with more than 36,000 students at its West Lafayette campus.  West Lafayette is located approximately 66 miles north-west of Indianapolis and 116 miles south-east of Chicago.

Applications will be received until the position is filled.

Purdue University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer.



Ed Pajor, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Animal Sciences
Purdue University
1026 Poultry Science Bldg.
West Lafayette, Indiana
47907-1026
U.S.A.

Tel: 765-496-6665
Fax: 765-494-9347
Email: pajor@purdue.edu --Boundary_(ID_xoILDPilvGTmhsRaWX4Mgg)-- From: IN%"pajor@purdue.edu" "Edmond Pajor" 9-NOV-1999 08:15:46.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: MS student - swine behaviour stipend --Boundary_(ID_tlGTnYfrBT2kMT+hkoI1tA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" MS Graduate Student Assistantship in Swine Behavior A MS graduate student stipend is available to study swine behavior with Dr. Ed Pajor in the Department of Animal Sciences, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, USA. The successful applicant will be expected to work in one of the following project areas: 1. Variation in maternal behavior across different genetic lines of swine 2. The effect of human-animal interaction on welfare, productivity and husbandry practices. 3. The development of alternative housing systems for gestating or lactating swine which promote animal welfare and productivity. Requirements: 1. Successful applicants will have a BS in animal science, biology or related discipline. 2. All applicants must meet the entry requirements of the Purdue University Graduate School 3. All applicants are required to take the aptitude test section of the Graduate Record Examination (GRE). 4. Applicants must qualify for a departmental assistantship. 5. Applicants whose native language is not English are required to submit official test results of the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) and the Test of Written English (TWE) or Essay Rating. A minimum TOEFL score of 550 (paper based) or 213 (computer based) is required for admission consideration. 6. Applicants should posses strong organizational, communication, and interpersonal skills Application procedure: 1) Interested applicants should contact Dr. Ed Pajor Department of Animal Sciences Purdue University, 1026 Poultry Building West Lafayette, IN 47907-1026 phone 765-496-6665; fax 765-494-9347; E-mail pajor@purdue.edu 2) Applications can be made electronically http://www.purdue.edu/GradSchool/gradhome.htm or contact Graduate Studies Office, Department of Animal Sciences, 1151 Lilly Hall, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, 479071151 for an application package. Additional information regarding the Department of Animal Sciences and its graduate program can be accessed at our web site http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/ Applications will be received until positions are filled. Purdue University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer. Ed Pajor, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Department of Animal Sciences Purdue University 1026 Poultry Science Bldg. West Lafayette, Indiana 47907-1026 U.S.A. Tel: 765-496-6665 Fax: 765-494-9347 Email: pajor@purdue.edu --Boundary_(ID_tlGTnYfrBT2kMT+hkoI1tA) Content-type: text/html; charset="us-ascii" MS Graduate Student Assistantship in Swine Behavior

A MS graduate student stipend is available to study swine behavior with Dr. Ed Pajor in the Department of Animal Sciences, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, USA.
The successful applicant will be expected to work in one of the following project areas:

1. Variation in maternal behavior across different genetic lines of swine
2. The effect of human-animal interaction on welfare, productivity and husbandry practices.
3. The development of alternative housing systems for gestating or lactating swine which promote animal welfare and productivity.

Requirements:

1. Successful applicants will have a BS in animal science, biology or related discipline.
2. All applicants must meet the entry requirements of the Purdue University Graduate School
3. All applicants are required to take the aptitude test section of the Graduate Record
    Examination (GRE).
4. Applicants must qualify for a departmental assistantship.
5. Applicants whose native language is not English are required to submit official test results of      the Test of English as a Foreign Language (TOEFL) and the Test of Written English (TWE) or      Essay Rating. A minimum TOEFL score of 550 (paper based) or 213 (computer based) is      required for admission consideration.
6. Applicants should posses strong organizational, communication, and interpersonal skills
                                
Application procedure:

1) Interested applicants should contact
Dr. Ed Pajor
Department of Animal Sciences
Purdue University, 1026 Poultry Building
West Lafayette, IN 47907-1026
phone 765-496-6665;
fax 765-494-9347;
E-mail pajor@purdue.edu

2) Applications can be made electronically http://www.purdue.edu/GradSchool/gradhome.htm
or  contact  Graduate Studies Office, Department of Animal Sciences, 1151 Lilly Hall, Purdue University, West Lafayette, Indiana, 479071151 for an application package.

Additional information regarding the Department of Animal Sciences and its graduate program can be accessed at our web site  http://www.ansc.purdue.edu/

Applications will be received until positions are filled.
Purdue University is an Equal Opportunity/Affirmative Action Employer.


Ed Pajor, Ph.D.
Assistant Professor
Department of Animal Sciences
Purdue University
1026 Poultry Science Bldg.
West Lafayette, Indiana
47907-1026
U.S.A.

Tel: 765-496-6665
Fax: 765-494-9347
Email: pajor@purdue.edu --Boundary_(ID_tlGTnYfrBT2kMT+hkoI1tA)-- From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 9-NOV-1999 08:21:16.06 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Gandhi ? The comparison with the Nazis was really meant for the vegetarian that murdered Ghandi rather than Ghandi himself. I may be wrong but I suspect that Ghandi's thoughts on vegetrianism and morality were written before the=20 partition of India, during which I believe that Ghandi became somewhat disillusioned by watching vegetarians and non-vegetarians = slaughter each other with gay abandon. Jeff Rushen >>> Donna Reynolds 11/08 7:30 pm >>> Is it just me... or is anyone else on this list having a hard time watching a group of intelligent people reduce the lifework of Gandhi to a cheap and irrelevant comparison of Nazi schizophrenia? Donna Reynolds (ever amused) > >As for the moral basis of vegetarianism, India doesn't strike me > >as a shining beacon of peace and moral tranquillity. > > > >Jeff Rushen From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" 9-NOV-1999 08:37:58.68 CC: Subj: Re:Applied-Ethology commands Sorry, I cannot reply to your message before the 3rd January Desol=E9, je ne peux pas r=E9pondre =E0 votre message avant le 3 janvier Jeff Rushen From: IN%"Uknierim@Itt.tiho-hannover.de" "Ute Knierim" 9-NOV-1999 09:37:11.46 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mail overflow Dear all, > would it be possible that answers were directed only to people asking > questions ? > Thank you for limiting the overflow of E. Mails. I think this suggestion is not in line with the idea of a lively discussion list. I very much appreciate all kinds of answers to all kinds of questions, and if not, I just skip the messages. Best wishes Ute ********************************************************************* Dr. Ute Knierim Institut fuer Tierhygiene und Tierschutz Tieraerztliche Hochschule Hannover Institute of Animal Hygiene and Welfare School of Veterinary Medicine Hannover Buenteweg 17 p D-30559 Hannover Tel +49 (0)511 953 8449 Fax +49 (0)511 953 8588 uknierim@itt.tiho-hannover.de ************************************************************************** From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 9-NOV-1999 09:38:47.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Clinical Residency in Veterinary Behavior Clinical Residency in Veterinary Behavior The Department of Anatomy and Radiology, College of Veterinary Medicine, University of Georgia, has a three-year position in veterinary behavior beginning July 1, 2000. This residency is a conforming residency under the guidelines established by the American College of Veterinary Behaviorists. The successful candidate will also be expected to complete a M.S. in Biopsychology during the three-year period. Additional funding will be sought for individuals who wish to continue to completion of the PhD after their first three years of study. At least one ACVB diplomate will supervise the resident and will participate in the diagnosis and treatment of patients seen on a regular basis through the Behavior Service, UGA Veterinary Medical Teaching Hospital. The resident will also participate in rotations in other services. A variety of courses are available through the College of Veterinary Medicine, the School of Pharmacy, the Department of Psychology (Section of Biopsychology), the Department of Animal and Dairy Science and the Institute of Ecology. These include courses in Applied Animal Behavior, Learning, Psychopharmacology, Biological Foundations of Behavior, Sensory Psychology, Primate Social Organization, Sociobiology, Ethology, and Development of Behavior. For further information about the program, go to www.var.vet.uga.edu/behavior/. Ongoing research programs in the behavior of dogs, cats, horses, psittacines and primates provide substantial opportunity for exposure to the most current state of knowledge of the behavior of these species. A complete description of the residency is available upon request. Applicants must have graduated from an AVMA accredited veterinary college and have completed an internship or equivalent. A current license in at least one state is required. To ensure consideration, applications should be received by Feb. 1, 2000. To apply, send or have sent the following: 1) A single page summarizing information on how the applicant may be contacted, including address, email address, and phone numbers. 2) Official transcripts from veterinary college, undergraduate school, and any other college level course work taken. 3) GRE scores (general only, taken since April 1, 1995) 4) Three letters of recommendation, including at least one from someone who supervised the applicant's internship or equivalent work 5) A CV which includes practice experience and experience/education in animal behavior not covered in transcripts, e.g., CE courses in veterinary behavior, time spent attending clinics with an ACVB college diplomate, etc. 6) A statement of career goals A provisional decision will be made by March 1, 2000. The candidate selected must then apply and be accepted to the graduate school. Final selection is contingent upon admission to the graduate program in Biopsychology. The beginning salary is $19,000 plus benefits. A three-week vacation and liberal holiday schedules are provided each year. Salary increases annually. The University of Georgia is an affirmative action, equal opportunity employer. Contact: Dr. Sharon Crowell-Davis D.V.M., PhD, Dipl ACVB, AB certified Applied Animal Behaviorist Department of Anatomy and Radiology College of Veterinary Medicine, The University of Georgia Athens, GA. 30602. Phone: 706-542-8343 FAX: 706-542-0051 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 9-NOV-1999 18:16:36.54 To: IN%"lepape@univ-tours.fr", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mail overflow Oh, no, please. The answers are just as interesting as the questions.How can we learn otherwise? Brenda >From: LE PAPE >To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Mail overflow >Date: Tue, 09 Nov 1999 14:06:44 +0100 > >To all, > >would it be possible that answers were directed only to people asking >questions ? >Thank you for limiting the overflow of E. Mails. > >Gilles LE PAPE >Ethology >TOURS (France) > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 9-NOV-1999 18:22:06.09 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Explanation of meaning To all -- I have written a personal note to the member who believe that I was accusing Germans of something in a careless way. But I would like everyone to know that if I were speaking of a German soldier who was in an American prison camp in WWII and this soldier ate an American cat and was punished. I would have stated "The Americans punished him by putting him in solitary," using "the Americans" in exactly the same way as I used "the Germans." The phrase is meant to refer only to those members of the German people who were running the prison camp. I believe this was clear, but wish to make it explicit in case anyone else was offended. Thanks, Brenda Reed ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 9-NOV-1999 20:07:55.89 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dogs eat feces Hello Sabine, I hope this captures the interest of an inquiring mind. At the moment very little is known about the etiology of coprophagia. The situation that you describe could provide the basis for a useful study, perhaps leading to an improved understanding of the problem and its treatment. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch wrote: > Hi you all: > > At the guide dog school in Switzerland they have a problem with their > labrador retrievers eating their own or other dogs' feces. This school has > been breeding and training labrador retrievers as guide dogs for blind > people since 1972. Lately, this new problem of feces-eating dogs arrived and > the dog trainers have no clue about the reasons. They suspected a change in > dog food (maybe companies started to use flavors that pass the dogs' > intestines and make feces attractive to dogs to eat). The feed commercial > dog food, but a change to meat and (commercial flakes) did not help. The > pups are raised at the school, then placed into foster homes and return at > the age of 15 months. Then they are kept in kennels during their training. > That is when the behavior starts. The dogs cannot be prevented eating the > feces without great force and otherwise suitable dogs had to be excluded > from the program. My questions: Has anybody noticed an increase urge of dogs > eating dog feces? Does anybody have a suggestion of a solution to this > problem? I would forward your ideas to the guiding school. > > Sabine Gebhardt > sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 9-NOV-1999 20:10:02.20 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Explanation of meaning and more ----- Original Message ----- From: Brenda Reed Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 4:20 PM > I have written a personal note to the member who believe that I was accusing > Germans of something in a careless way. hi Brenda, i knew that; of course, that's the intent. it's v. nice of you to write an apology and to us. sometimes i think things distort in the screens. that said, this from today's ny times and i'm passing along in case not everyone sees -- (Daniel, something about thunder) drugging dogs. i daresay i'm on the side of Ian Dunbar in this case. the dog business -- i can't stand it. hope all are well. margory Dr. Freud, I Think Fido Is Obsessive-Compulsive By DEBRA GALANT When Neiko Fischbein watched television she got "overcranked." No matter what, she could not sit still. "She just seemed to be attracted, or distracted, by everything in constant fashion," said Dr. Ellen Fischbein, a psychiatrist who lives outside of New Haven. "I'm kind of a high-energy person, but she exhausted me." Suspecting attention deficit disorder, Dr. Fischbein took her 3 1/2-year-old to see a behavior specialist, who concurred and prescribed Dexedrine. Within two days, Dr. Fischbein had witnessed a complete transformation in Neiko: "It was like somebody had virtually turned a dial." The thing is, Neiko is a Rottweiler. And just like humans, they sometimes need psychiatric help. Dr. Nicholas Dodman, who prescribed Neiko's Dexedrine, is a leader in the small but growing field of animal psychology, where many of the current controversies echo eerily similar debates in the field of human behavior. And while psychologists have drawn lessons from animals since Pavlov's experiments a century ago, insights now are flowing in both directions. The American Veterinary Medicine Association began to recognize animal behavior as a board-certified specialty in 1993, and since then, only 20 veterinarians, including Dr. Dodman, have earned the certification. An animal behavior specialist at Tufts University, Dr. Dodman is a co-author of the only veterinary textbook on the use of psychopharmaceuticals in animals and has written several popular books on behavior, including "Dogs Behaving Badly" (Bantam, 1999) and "The Cat Who Cried for Help" (Bantam, 1997). But many others are hanging out shingles, from Ph.D.'s in psychology to dog trainers, and they charge up to $250 as hour, with telephone follow-ups). Other signs of the field's growth abound. In January, the Food and Drug Administration officially approved the use of two human psychopharmaceuticals, Clomicalm and Anipryl, for mental problems in dogs. Novartis, which makes Clomicalm, an anti-anxiety drug, expects it to produce $25 million a year in animal sales. Seven of the 29 veterinary schools in the United States now offer residency programs in animal behavior. The Tufts University Veterinary Center has started a fax-back service for pet owners who cannot wait the three months to see Dr. Dodman. Just as in human psychology, many diagnoses and treatments are controversial. Ian Dunbar, a psychologist and puppy training expert in Berkeley, Calif., says that when he asks an owner about a dog's annoying behaviors, he expects to hear about problems like chewing, barking or escaping. But more and more, he said, "people have developed big names for mythical syndromes: things like separation anxiety syndrome." He added: "I just disagree with that. Dogs are dogs and they do doggy things." Dr. Dunbar, who believes in positive reinforcement, takes umbrage at the idea of "separation anxiety" in pets. He argues that dogs that chew or bark or otherwise behave badly when their owners leave are usually just cutting loose. "The dog learns it's simply bad news to act like a dog when the owners are around," he said. Rather than getting a psychoactive drug, he argues, pets need reward-based training in how to deal with confinement. David Falk, an Airedale trainer based in Corinth, N.Y., agrees that "separation anxiety" is just a word for boredom. "They're bored," he said. "They tear your house apart. Are they bored because you're gone? Or are they bored because they're bored?" Of course, many diagnoses are controversial, whether in animals or in humans. Dr. Dodman notes that when it comes to attention deficit disorder, for example, the British "think Americans are crazy and are overdosing their children" with stimulants like Ritalin. But in animals as in humans, he said, a conspicuous change in activity level indicates a diagnosable condition. Give the creature Ritalin or Dexedrine, and if it experiences the paradoxical response of calming down, as Neiko did, the diagnosis is confirmed, Dr. Dodman said. Trainers are among the most skeptical of assigning human conditions to pets. Most pet behavior problems, they believe, stem from either inappropriate human expectations or lack of training. "A lot of these dogs are hard-wired for specific behaviors," said Brian Kilcommons, a trainer in Gardiner, N.Y., a co-author of the book "Paws to Consider" (Warner Books, 1999). Many owners picked breeds that are entirely unsuited for their lifestyles, he said. "They buy a Weimaraner because it's an attractive, handsome dog," he said. "They don't do their homework. You have to run this dog, at least two hours a day of hard running." Susan Richmond, co-executive director of the Humane Society of New York, says many dogs are labeled bad because they do not have the opportunity to run off energy while the owners are at work. "It would be like telling a 4-year-old to sit at a desk for 10 hours," she said. Dr. Dodman agrees that some odd dog behaviors do stem from modern circumstances. He once had to euthanize a bull terrier named Teddy when nothing would stop the dog from frantically chasing its tail. Years later, a colleague pointed out that bull terriers were bred as predators, specifically to kill rats. Many tail chasers, Dr. Dodman now believes, are simply pursuing the "only potential prey" in their environments. He treats them with Prozac. As in human psychology, many problems can be alleviated through a combination of retraining and psychopharmacology. Take thunderstorm phobia, a common canine fear. Dr. Peter Borchelt, a pet behavior expert in Brooklyn, who has a Ph.D. in psychology, uses thunderstorm recordings and strobe lights to desensitize fearful pets. When that fails, he may recommend anti-anxiety medication. Among the lessons to be learned from pet psychology are what makes good parents. "That's the real importance of all this puppy stuff," Dr. Dunbar said. "There are three species in the world which are regularly abused: dogs, horses and humans." Dr. Beaver says that while many of the links between animal and human psychology are speculative, this much is certain: "People who are physically abusive of animals have a high probability of physical abuse to people." In some jurisdictions, animal-abuse authorities share information with child-abuse agencies, she said. Despite obvious connections between animals and humans in terms of brain chemistry and behavior modification, there are areas of human psychology where pets will probably never tread. Do not expect Fido or Whiskers to be sharing their dreams anytime soon -- even though Dobermans are used by sleep researchers at Stanford to study narcolepsy. Although Dr. Beaver does not think animal behaviorists are years behind their human counterparts, she does concede that she and her colleagues must sometimes draw on insights from human psychology. "Because," she explained, "we can't talk to our clients." http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+13+0 +wAAA+dodman From: IN%"cook@garlic.com" "Cook" 9-NOV-1999 21:30:25.48 To: IN%"sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dogs eat feces There are some "medications" out there for this particular bad habit. The one I know of off hand in named Forbid and is a powder which you apply to the dogs food. It did not work for my dog. Yet a small amount of black licorice did! I believe is the anise in the black licorice which processes it out into a unappealing poo. I have changed diets and do not need to use any supplements know. Hope this helps. Shay Cook -----Original Message----- From: Sabine Gebhardt [mailto:sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch] Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 1:45 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: AW: dogs eat feces Hi Jon: Those dogs return to the kennels at an age of 15 months after being raised at foster homes. It is important to know that all methods of raising, keeping, and training the dogs have not changed for more than 25 years, but the problem of feces-eating dogs is new and increasing. This annoying behavior persists after those dogs are placed in new homes, but it first starts when the dogs return to the school. It could be an interaction between the husbandry (kennel environment, availability of feces, etc.) and some other factor that has arisen recently. The dog trainers are willing to make changes within their capabilities (switch food, etc.), but they cannot e.g. place those dogs into families during training, or make more elaborate changes. Best wishes, Sabine -----Ursprüngliche Nachricht----- Von: Jon Bowen [mailto:rondog@btinternet.com] Gesendet am: Dienstag, 9. November 1999 10:12 An: sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch Betreff: Re: dogs eat feces Possible causes? if the dogs live in a barren environment during training then they may start to experiment with eating/playing with their own faeces. This can become a vice. If people regularly rush to stop them it could become a reliable method of getting attention. Their may be some problem of digesting the food that is being used, so there may be something attractive about the flavour of the stools. My concenr would be that punishment and use of repellents added to the food might reduce the problem but not deal with the true cause. Sounds like we need a lot more information about the conditions these dogs live in at kennels. How old are they when they are kennelled? What toys/methods of environmental enrichment are used with them? How are they socialised? Are they group housed? At what age do the dogs start to eat faeces? Best wishes, Jon From: IN%"westerfield@multipro.com" 9-NOV-1999 22:38:21.53 To: IN%"lepape@univ-tours.fr" "LE PAPE" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Mail overflow LE PAPE wrote: > > To all, > > would it be possible that answers were directed only to people asking > questions ? > Thank you for limiting the overflow of E. Mails. > > Gilles LE PAPE > Ethology > TOURS (France) I have to vote for replies to the list serv. I find most of the discussions fascinating and all as interesting. These conversations are a learning tool as well as enlightening entertainment. I still hope to see an answer to Robins message "Prune me please?" from September 24. Patricia From: IN%"chris@lovebirds.netlineuk.net" "lovebirds" 10-NOV-1999 02:46:57.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology List", IN%"lepape@univ-tours.fr" "LE PAPE" CC: Subj: RE: Mail overflow I realise only too well the problem of having a lot of e-mails, but I hope no-one will follow this suggestion. I lurk and contribute little, but I learn a great deal from seeing both questions and answers. Best wishes Chris (UK) chris@lovebirds.netlineuk.net > > would it be possible that answers were directed only to people asking > questions ? > Thank you for limiting the overflow of E. Mails. > > Gilles From: IN%"Anders.Herlin@jbt.slu.se" "Anders Herlin" 10-NOV-1999 06:59:58.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: help - group synchrony hi, can anybody help me with some methods (reference) for determining the = degree of synchrony of a group of animals? - i.e. how many animals that performs the same activity at the same time Med v=E4nliga h=E4lsningar / Yours Sincerely Anders Herlin Dept. Agric. Biosystems and Technology Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences P.O. Box 59 S-230 53 Alnarp Sweden tel. +46 - (0)40 - 415219 fax +46 - (0)40 - 464241 home phone: +46 - (0)46 - 200809 Email: Anders.Herlin@jbt.slu.se http://allan.jbt.slu.se/anders.herlin From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jon Bowen" 10-NOV-1999 07:16:37.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Mail overflow Hi, most email software can be configured to delete messages off the server according to specific rules. It seems pointless to stop people from relying via the list because nobody will have a chance to discuss, but if an individual doesn't wan't to get reply posts then it is easy to do this. Set your email client software to 'delete off' server all messages that have come from applied ethology and contain the word 'Re:' in the subject box. That way you never even receive these emails All replies automatically get 'Re:' added to the 'subject', and so all replies are deleted and the original questions remain. Best wishes, Jon From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 10-NOV-1999 07:16:37.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: American children Dear list members, on 21 Oct 99 I wrote the following: ---------------------------------------------------- People in the world, how can we save American children from crazy adults? ---------------------------------------------------- Unfortunately the day after I got ill. Now I am back and I see that some of you didn't know anything about a boy called Raoul. I am sorry that I couldn't answer earlier. I will try now although you might have heard of the problem in the meantime. Normally I hate it when people bring up things which have nothing to do with our subject. But the information which we got in Germany and in Switzerland about Raoul was so shocking for me and everybody here that I couldn't resist to make this statement - I am sorry. But perhaps there is still some relation to ethology. I try to tell something about the story in case that some of you still don't know anything about it. But I can only give rather incomplete information because I didn't follow the things and because of my poor English. Don't charge me, please, if something is not 100 % correct! Raoul's parents are from Switzerland (at least one parent). The family lived in Colorado(?). Raoul was 10 years old. A neighbour had seen that Raoul did some manipulation with his 5 year-old sister or half sister. The manipulation seemed to be sex-related. The police came to Raouls family at midnight and took him out of his bed. Raoul was crying Mama, Mama! The police put handcuffs on him and took him to jail. He was accused of severe incest and sexual harassment. He was taken to the court in handcuffs. His parents went to Switzerland because they were afraid of loosing also their other children. The first court date failed because the tape recording didn't work. He is now living in a host family. He was taken to the court again, I don't know if again in handcuffs. The process is going on. The prosecutor has some difficulties because there are no birth certificates of the children and so there is no proof that Raoul and the girl are related. So, was it incest or not? If there was anything at all! Nearly every day we here about this story. If it is true then I don't know what is going wrong in the USA. I had this question earlier when I heard about the reactions related to president Clintons adventures. (I think his behavior was well within the ethogram of human males.) Raoul and ethology: All young male mammals show very early some sexual interest. Later when things get serious everything is different. As I said I was ill. Interesting things come to your mind if you have time. I recalled that I had a similar experience when I was about 7 years old. There was a girl and nobody could see us. Yes I tried to put it in. I really tried but it didn't work. - I have no further memory of anything like this lateron. And even about this memory I am not sure whether it was reality or only a dream - after more than 50 years. But if it was reality then I am happy that I didn't live in the USA. Now I am aware that they will put me to jail if I ever should come to the USA. But I will probably not come. Communication is so easy by e-mail and flying damages our atmosphere. Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 3011 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu" "Sharon Crowell-Davis" 10-NOV-1999 07:24:41.90 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mail overflow > I have to vote for replies to the list serv. Absolutely. I thought the main point of the listserv was to carry on discussions about applied ethology. How can we do that if people aren't asking and answering questions? Then commenting on answers to the questions? etc. Most of the best discussions of the past couple of years have been initiated by a good question. I am usually too busy to get involved in discussions, but following them is interesting and doesn't usually take a lot of time. When I am too busy to even follow discussions, or not interested in a topic, I just do block deletes. For the most part, people on this listserv do a good job of having the correct topic listed in the Subject line, so this is easy. Sharon Crowell-Davis ********************************************** Sharon L. Crowell-Davis DVM, PhD Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists College of Veterinary Medicine University of Georgia Athens, Georgia 30602 scrowell@calc.vet.uga.edu If a little knowledge is dangerous, where is the man who has so much as to be out of danger? T.H. Huxley On Elementary Instruction in Physiology From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 10-NOV-1999 07:50:01.92 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dogs eat feces ----- Original Message ----- From: Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 12:07 AM > At the guide dog school in Switzerland they have a problem with their > labrador retrievers eating their own or other dogs' feces. This school has > been breeding and training labrador retrievers as guide dogs for blind > people since 1972. Lately, this new problem of feces-eating dogs arrived and > the dog trainers have no clue about the reasons. They suspected a change in > dog food (maybe companies started to use flavors that pass the dogs' > intestines and make feces attractive to dogs to eat). The feed commercial > dog food, but a change to meat and (commercial flakes) did not help hello, adding in here -- i would think something is missing from their own diets as well as interest-level being kenneled. as irrisistable as horse droppings are, i know of some hounds who when alfalfa was added to their own food, stopped going quite so nuts at the stable buffet. i too have seen products on the market that if added to the dogs' feed would discourage eating it once it came thru, but have no experience with any. i'd check the food supply. and have a hard review of handling techniques. margory From: IN%"GFlannigan@infonet.tufts.edu" 10-NOV-1999 08:18:07.41 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: separation anxiety and more As a veterinary behaviorist and a resident at Tufts, I would like to make some comments on this article and other media coverage. Unfortunately, the media deals in soundbites. When Dr. Dodman is on TV all you see is 2 to 3 minutes of a 1.5 to 2 hour appointment. As a result, all the public sees is drugs and a diagnosis so tends to believe that we have these magic bullets. The majority of our cases do not leave our facility with medication or a prescription. They receive numerous handouts of specific behaviuor modification, and recommendations for diet, exercise, obedience training and the potential for finding a medical reason for changes in behavior. Like human psychiatry, medication is part of a veterinary behaviorist arsonal. I am continually telling the staff that there are no behavioral emergencies (ie. nothing will walk out the door cured or with an easy fix). Most clients walk out our doors with their spinning with the idea that they have a lot of work to do. Separation related problems (a better term than separation anxiety) have several potential causes only one of which is anxiety. Boredom is not a term I like to use because it is so easy to fall back on and I would rather look for the specific areas that are causing the dog to lack stimulation (dependent on breed and the specific personality of the dog). For a diagnosis of separation anxiety, we are looking for other signs of an abnormal, hyper-attached bond with the owner: intense following, over-exhuberant greeting, stressful departure cues etc. The focus of the treatment is not medication but to help the dog deal with and decrease the bond to a less pathological level. As the owner of a very needy working retriever and can give the clients first hand knowledge of the benefit of behavior modification in the absence of medication and stress that fact in every appointment. I am familiar with the case mentioned in the article. We do not hand out stimulants like candy. I have been in appointments with Dr. Dodman were clients come in with the idea that their dog has ADD and he has stressed that these cases are rare; his aim is to ensure that the dog is recieving adequate exercise. But this client was a clinical psychiatrist who he felt could adequately assess her dogs behavior and was familiar with the disorder in people. Obviously, the media is only interested in cases that are success. In a previous case on TV with a jumping pitbull (my case by the way- this is probably the only case in a two year residency that resembled what I would think of as a hyperkinetic dog- our term for ADD in dogs), we treated that dog in a similar way with no success. This is a new field and like human behavior, people are going to disagree about how disorders should be treated. But as the holistic veterinary specialist who observed our methods noted, veterinary behaviorists are actually holistic vets because we look at the entire dog (environment, medical and history of the problem). I hope this helps. ______________________________________________ Gerry Flannigan BSc. DVM Behaviour Resident Tufts University School of Veterinary Medicine 200 Westboro Road North Grafton, MA 01536-1896 (508)839-5395 ext. 84802 (508)839-7922 -FAX From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 10-NOV-1999 08:40:11.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Generalisations and explanations of meaning ******************************************************** WARNING: This message is not directly related to applied ethology (unless you include human animals). Please delete and accept my apologies if you are not interested. ******************************************************** Dear Brenda, Thanks for replying to my message. My reaction was not just a response to the words "the Germans...", but about generalisations and stereotypes in general. Let me explain my point of view a bit more. I've heard many generalisations and am getting increasingly worried about them. 'The' Serbs against 'the' Croats, against 'the' Bosnians, 'the' Tutsi against 'the' Hutu, 'the' Catholics against 'the' Protestants, 'the' British against 'the' French, Germans, and Europe in general (foreign devils, all of them), 'the' Americans being all obsessed with guns and sex and violence, running around murdering each other. 'The' this and 'the' that, and it doesn't help one single bit. We all do it, I do believe that it is in our (human) nature to generalise. Nevertheless, I try to fight the temptation. Where I come from, the term 'catholic' or 'protestant' describes what church you go to on Sundays (if and when you go to church). A major difference seems to be the speed with which you say he Lord's Prayer (Catholics fast, protestants slow), and one lot is said to have tougher knees from all that kneeling. In the UK in contrast, 'catholic' and 'protestant' come with a burden of hatred and discrimination, which results in children bullying and fighting each other from a very early age. This is in total disregard of the fact that both are supposed 'to love one another'. A piece of news in the current 'beef war' between France and Britain was that a few factories producing animal feed included the run-off from their toilets in the process. This practice is apparently illegal in France, and was stopped as soon as the authorities found out about it. Fact is that these factories were in France, and the resulting headline was 'The French feed human excrement to cattle'. Public outcry in Britain, boycott of 'French' products etc. (hence the apple producer going bankrupt) I believe that the generalisation 'THE FRENCH do this' is as distorting as 'THE CATHOLICS do that' or, indeed 'THE GERMANS do something else'. If you don't mean all members of a group, past, present and future, then don't use the term for that group when talking about only a part of that group. Apparently, there is some evidence that in some parts of the world, a significant proportion of crime is committed by people with a dark skin colour. If Blacks assault someone, you could say 'the Blacks assault people'. In the long run, however, this leads to cases such as one recently reported in Britain, where a young black man was attacked by a group of white youth. When the police arrived, they arrested the black man, presumably on the grounds that 'Blacks assault people'. There is this 'Zero Violence' campaign here in the UK, which states 'Violence against women is a crime'. That sounds as if all men were violent, and all women are innocent victims. Does that mean that if you want to campaign against violence against men or children, you have to start your own group? Why not 'violence is a crime'? A man sees a car collide with another car, because the driver hadn't been paying attention. He finds out that the driver is female - and: "Typical, a woman driver". When he then talks about the incident, he talks about 'woman drivers'. Automatically, all women listening feel defensive, and all men, regardless of their own driving record feel safe, because they have obviously nothing to do with it. There is something very wrong with that. The original issue, that you should pay attention when you're driving a car has been changed to 'you should be male'. Why do we need secondary attributes? Grouping includes and excludes people, often indisciminately. Why not talk about the issue at hand? The bad driving? The people who rape women in a war can be described by their nationality, they can be described by their sex, or by the colour of their skin, but that also allows them to hide behind those terms. Why not call them rapists? " 'ZZZZ' (insert nationality, sex and skin colour of your own choice) raped women" turns it into some political act or statement. They are rapists, criminals, not 'ZZZZ' (insert nationality, sex and skin colour of your own choice). I know that 'political correctness' got out of hand, and I regret that my message looked like a personal attack on you. Nevertheless, I am worried about gross generalisations, because even though you may not mean any harm, prejudices and generalisations are very powerful, and can lead to results you never intended. What we say (or think we say) is not always what other people hear. If we all stop to think from time to time, maybe we can hear what for example our children hear when we make sweeping statements about a group of people. Hope that explains my point of view, and apologies if the message got a bit long Hans ********************************************* Dr Hans Erhard Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Scotland - UK Tel.: +44 (0)1224 - 318611 Fax.: +44 (0)1224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" 10-NOV-1999 09:48:57.54 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Explanation of meaning and more Thanks Marjory for sending that article. This could make for a very interesting debate. Although some would like to snipe at the veterinary field for riding on the coat tails of modern psychiatry I do think there are some other points to consider. I believe Dunbar's comments are appropriate and whole heartedly agree with observations concerning boredom, lack of selecting suitable pets, etc. But until there are controls placed on dog ownership, then what are we to do? A good argument can be made that since we don't live in a perfect world, and dog ownership is primarily relegated to the realm of personal rights and property, never mind the ignorance that abounds... many pets may be saved from abandonment, euthanasia, etc through pharmacological therapies. I believe there is substantial documentation that supports (at least in the US) that many animals are turned into shelters because of behavior problems. Well trained veterinarians in animal behavior should advise of all the non- pharmacological avenues in cases where training and behavior modification are evident as first step remedies. I would even suggest that some of those vets actually make a referral to a knowledgable dog trainer or certified animal behavior specialist. I am not suggesting that "drugging" them up is the be all and end all of dog treatments. Certainly the invitation of dependency weighs heavy. Correct selection, responsible breeders, obedience, and understanding natural dog behavior could go a long way in addressing many of these problems. But you can't force people to comply and so they tramp into the vet's office looking for help or requesting their animal be euthanized, or better yet leave that to the shelters. I think this particular field of veterinary medicine is filling an important niche for companion animals, they have the medical training and credentials to dispense controlled substances... this is not something I would care to do considering the responsibilities that go with it. (By the way I am not a veterinarian). As for fancy terms for common problems...you find a lot of those in science...especially on grant applications ;-) Janice Swanson ----- Original Message ----- From: Brenda Reed Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 4:20 PM > I have written a personal note to the member who believe that I was accusing > Germans of something in a careless way. hi Brenda, i knew that; of course, that's the intent. it's v. nice of you to write an apology and to us. sometimes i think things distort in the screens. that said, this from today's ny times and i'm passing along in case not everyone sees -- (Daniel, something about thunder) drugging dogs. i daresay i'm on the side of Ian Dunbar in this case. the dog business -- i can't stand it. hope all are well. margory Dr. Freud, I Think Fido Is Obsessive-Compulsive By DEBRA GALANT When Neiko Fischbein watched television she got "overcranked." No matter what, she could not sit still. "She just seemed to be attracted, or distracted, by everything in constant fashion," said Dr. Ellen Fischbein, a psychiatrist who lives outside of New Haven. "I'm kind of a high-energy person, but she exhausted me." Suspecting attention deficit disorder, Dr. Fischbein took her 3 1/2-year-old to see a behavior specialist, who concurred and prescribed Dexedrine. Within two days, Dr. Fischbein had witnessed a complete transformation in Neiko: "It was like somebody had virtually turned a dial." The thing is, Neiko is a Rottweiler. And just like humans, they sometimes need psychiatric help. Dr. Nicholas Dodman, who prescribed Neiko's Dexedrine, is a leader in the small but growing field of animal psychology, where many of the current controversies echo eerily similar debates in the field of human behavior. And while psychologists have drawn lessons from animals since Pavlov's experiments a century ago, insights now are flowing in both directions. The American Veterinary Medicine Association began to recognize animal behavior as a board-certified specialty in 1993, and since then, only 20 veterinarians, including Dr. Dodman, have earned the certification. An animal behavior specialist at Tufts University, Dr. Dodman is a co-author of the only veterinary textbook on the use of psychopharmaceuticals in animals and has written several popular books on behavior, including "Dogs Behaving Badly" (Bantam, 1999) and "The Cat Who Cried for Help" (Bantam, 1997). But many others are hanging out shingles, from Ph.D.'s in psychology to dog trainers, and they charge up to $250 as hour, with telephone follow-ups). Other signs of the field's growth abound. In January, the Food and Drug Administration officially approved the use of two human psychopharmaceuticals, Clomicalm and Anipryl, for mental problems in dogs. Novartis, which makes Clomicalm, an anti-anxiety drug, expects it to produce $25 million a year in animal sales. Seven of the 29 veterinary schools in the United States now offer residency programs in animal behavior. The Tufts University Veterinary Center has started a fax-back service for pet owners who cannot wait the three months to see Dr. Dodman. Just as in human psychology, many diagnoses and treatments are controversial. Ian Dunbar, a psychologist and puppy training expert in Berkeley, Calif., says that when he asks an owner about a dog's annoying behaviors, he expects to hear about problems like chewing, barking or escaping. But more and more, he said, "people have developed big names for mythical syndromes: things like separation anxiety syndrome." He added: "I just disagree with that. Dogs are dogs and they do doggy things." Dr. Dunbar, who believes in positive reinforcement, takes umbrage at the idea of "separation anxiety" in pets. He argues that dogs that chew or bark or otherwise behave badly when their owners leave are usually just cutting loose. "The dog learns it's simply bad news to act like a dog when the owners are around," he said. Rather than getting a psychoactive drug, he argues, pets need reward-based training in how to deal with confinement. David Falk, an Airedale trainer based in Corinth, N.Y., agrees that "separation anxiety" is just a word for boredom. "They're bored," he said. "They tear your house apart. Are they bored because you're gone? Or are they bored because they're bored?" Of course, many diagnoses are controversial, whether in animals or in humans. Dr. Dodman notes that when it comes to attention deficit disorder, for example, the British "think Americans are crazy and are overdosing their children" with stimulants like Ritalin. But in animals as in humans, he said, a conspicuous change in activity level indicates a diagnosable condition. Give the creature Ritalin or Dexedrine, and if it experiences the paradoxical response of calming down, as Neiko did, the diagnosis is confirmed, Dr. Dodman said. Trainers are among the most skeptical of assigning human conditions to pets. Most pet behavior problems, they believe, stem from either inappropriate human expectations or lack of training. "A lot of these dogs are hard-wired for specific behaviors," said Brian Kilcommons, a trainer in Gardiner, N.Y., a co-author of the book "Paws to Consider" (Warner Books, 1999). Many owners picked breeds that are entirely unsuited for their lifestyles, he said. "They buy a Weimaraner because it's an attractive, handsome dog," he said. "They don't do their homework. You have to run this dog, at least two hours a day of hard running." Susan Richmond, co-executive director of the Humane Society of New York, says many dogs are labeled bad because they do not have the opportunity to run off energy while the owners are at work. "It would be like telling a 4-year-old to sit at a desk for 10 hours," she said. Dr. Dodman agrees that some odd dog behaviors do stem from modern circumstances. He once had to euthanize a bull terrier named Teddy when nothing would stop the dog from frantically chasing its tail. Years later, a colleague pointed out that bull terriers were bred as predators, specifically to kill rats. Many tail chasers, Dr. Dodman now believes, are simply pursuing the "only potential prey" in their environments. He treats them with Prozac. As in human psychology, many problems can be alleviated through a combination of retraining and psychopharmacology. Take thunderstorm phobia, a common canine fear. Dr. Peter Borchelt, a pet behavior expert in Brooklyn, who has a Ph.D. in psychology, uses thunderstorm recordings and strobe lights to desensitize fearful pets. When that fails, he may recommend anti-anxiety medication. Among the lessons to be learned from pet psychology are what makes good parents. "That's the real importance of all this puppy stuff," Dr. Dunbar said. "There are three species in the world which are regularly abused: dogs, horses and humans." Dr. Beaver says that while many of the links between animal and human psychology are speculative, this much is certain: "People who are physically abusive of animals have a high probability of physical abuse to people." In some jurisdictions, animal-abuse authorities share information with child-abuse agencies, she said. Despite obvious connections between animals and humans in terms of brain chemistry and behavior modification, there are areas of human psychology where pets will probably never tread. Do not expect Fido or Whiskers to be sharing their dreams anytime soon -- even though Dobermans are used by sleep researchers at Stanford to study narcolepsy. Although Dr. Beaver does not think animal behaviorists are years behind their human counterparts, she does concede that she and her colleagues must sometimes draw on insights from human psychology. "Because," she explained, "we can't talk to our clients." http://search.nytimes.com/search/daily/bin/fastweb?getdoc+site+iib-site+13 +0 +wAAA+dodman From: IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com" "Rayenna Rhys" 10-NOV-1999 11:15:21.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group" CC: Subj: Generalisations and explanations of meaning --Boundary_(ID_C13oWGaHJ0IA72wThDbUxQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ******************************************************** WARNING: This message is not directly related to applied ethology (unless you include human animals). Please delete and accept my apologies if you are not interested. *************************** Dear Hans, I understand your concern about generalizations but I can't agree with how far you've taken this. Yes, some of the examples you gave are excellent examples of stupidity and inaccuracies leading to further problems (the beef war between Britain and France), but there are also generalities that contain useful information. Take the violence against women is a crime campaign. Yes, of course, many many (most?) men do no violence whatsoever to women. However, the violence that is done to women almost always comes from a male source. As a woman I don't look in the eyes of any male over the age of about 10 while walking down the street. Too many of them will take that as a "come on" and then whatever happens to me as a result will be my fault (even if it is only bothersome harrasment that does me no harm). I have two daughters and I would be remiss as a mother not to teach them to be cautious around men until they can "suss things out." I don't teach them that men in general are dangerous because I don't believe that most men are, but I do teach them that they need to learn to be careful, watchful and cautious around men because men (not women) are the ones who (statistically) will be the ones to physically harm them. Take the people (they are still men as things stand today) who rape women in a war. Yes they can be described any number of ways but I do not think it irrelevant to use their nationality. How soldiers behave in a war is directly related to how their superior officers, their commanding general, and their civilian leaders allow them to behave. Some commanding generals (I admit not many) have made it clear rape would not be tolerated (men who did rape women were killed, dishonorably discharged, something drastic) and the men in those armies did not, in any sort of large numbers, rape women. So, when an army is going through a countryside raping women with abandon and with no consequences from their own leaders, it does indeed say something about that group, that nationality. It does not say that every single man in that group is a rapist but I don't really think anybody makes that leap. It does say that men in that particular nation's army are dangerous to women, that this behavior is condoned by their leaders, and we'd be fools to try to dilute that into a particular man or a particular unit at a particular time misbehaved but it doesn't mean anything in general. I was raised Catholic and spent time with my children raising them Catholic, sort of. Yes it is very dangerous to say All Catholics hate Protestants or All Catholics are anti-semitic, but again, depending on where you live and the time in which you live, there is useful information in those generalities. I would suspect that for a good number of years it might well have been true that most Catholics were anti-semitic. It might well have been prudent for a Jew to be cautious around Catholics. There wouldn't have been enough caution to save one's life during the Spanish Inquisition. The German Catholic Church was quite successfully fighting Hitler and subverting his grab for power until the then Pope intervened and ordered the German Catholic Bishops to cease and desist and follow his (the Pope's) orders. The Pope, the so called leader of the Catholic Church, never lifted another Catholic finger against Hitler. Is it fair to say that Catholics supported Hitler? Well I think yes and no. The Catholic Church, under the Pope's leadership, certainly did nothing to hinder Hitler (and that's about the least judgemental statement I can make on the subject). As a Catholic I have never resented such generalizations (although I can't really claim to be a Catholic any longer). I have always viewed such generalizations as "things to investigate" and then to make sure I distance myself from if need be. I have distanced myself completely away from the Catholic Church and I think this is a good response because there is a great deal of truth to many of those Catholic generalizations--in large part because this Pope is so insistant that everyone think whatever he thinks. It makes less sense to argue for not making generalizations about Catholics under a Pope who is demanding everyone toe his line than it would have under John the 23rd who was busy trying to get people to start thinking on their own again and getting power moved back to a local level. I think one needs to hold onto one's own sense of individuality (so if some of the many groups we all belong to get bashed we don't feel compelled to take it personally) and remember also that one can take the point I've been trying to make too far as well. One could take this logic and say well statistically, it is more likely that a Black man (here in the U.S.) will commit a crime of violence than a white man. Well, depends on the statistics, depends on how one manipulates the numbers (how one chooses to look at them, display them) and, all other things being equal, if that statement ends up being true I don't think the most helpful response is just that this is a gross generalization and we should ignore it. If there is truth to it we need to discover why. It won't be because they are Black per se, but it might be because being born Black in the U.S. still means you have a good chance of being born poor, into a neighborhood with a truly lousy school system, in an area where there are few honest jobs to be had, in a society that still sees your skin color before anything else. Generalizations provide useful information--one way or another, sometimes about the people being generalized, sometimes about those making the generalizations. It would be lovely to reach the point that this is not true. Raye Rhys Reference Librarian Flad & Associates Madison, Wisconsin --Boundary_(ID_C13oWGaHJ0IA72wThDbUxQ) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit ********************************************************
WARNING:
This message is not directly related to applied ethology (unless you
include human animals). Please delete and accept my apologies if you
are not interested.
***************************

Dear Hans,

I understand your concern about generalizations but I can't agree with how far you've taken this.  Yes, some of the examples you gave are excellent examples of stupidity and inaccuracies leading to further problems (the beef war between Britain and France), but there are also generalities that contain useful information.

Take the violence against women is a crime campaign.  Yes, of course, many many (most?) men do no violence whatsoever to women.  However, the violence that is done to women almost always comes from a male source.  As a woman I don't look in the eyes of any male over the age of about 10 while walking down the street.  Too many of them will take that as a "come on" and then whatever happens to me as a result will be my fault (even if it is only bothersome harrasment that does me no harm).  I have two daughters and I would be remiss as a mother not to teach them to be cautious around men until they can "suss things out."  I don't teach them that men in general are dangerous because I don't believe that most men are, but I do teach them that they need to learn to be careful, watchful and cautious around men because men (not women) are the ones who (statistically) will be the ones to physically harm them.

Take the people (they are still men as things stand today) who rape women in a war.  Yes they can be described any number of ways but I do not think it irrelevant to use their nationality.  How soldiers behave in a war is directly related to how their superior officers, their commanding general, and their civilian leaders allow them to behave.  Some commanding generals (I admit not many) have made it clear rape would not be tolerated (men who did rape women were killed, dishonorably discharged, something drastic) and the men in those armies did not, in any sort of large numbers, rape women.  So, when an army is going through a countryside raping women with abandon and with no consequences from their own leaders, it does indeed say something about that group, that nationality.  It does not say that every single man in that group is a rapist but I don't really think anybody makes that leap.  It does say that men in that particular nation's army are dangerous to women, that this behavior is condoned by their leaders,  and we'd be fools to try to dilute that into a particular man or a particular unit at a particular time misbehaved but it doesn't mean anything in general.

I was raised Catholic and spent time with my children raising them Catholic, sort of.  Yes it is very dangerous to say All Catholics hate Protestants or All Catholics are anti-semitic, but again, depending on where you live and the time in which you live, there is useful information in those generalities.  I would suspect that for a good number of years it might well have been true that most Catholics were anti-semitic.  It might well have been prudent for a Jew to be cautious around Catholics.  There wouldn't have been enough caution to save one's life during the Spanish Inquisition.  The German Catholic Church was quite successfully fighting Hitler and subverting his grab for power until the then Pope intervened and ordered the German Catholic Bishops to cease and desist and follow his (the Pope's) orders.  The Pope, the so called leader of the Catholic Church, never lifted another Catholic finger against Hitler.  Is it fair to say that Catholics supported Hitler?  Well I think yes and no.  The Catholic Church, under the Pope's leadership, certainly did nothing to hinder Hitler (and that's about the least judgemental statement I can make on the subject).  As a Catholic I have never resented such generalizations (although I can't really claim to be a Catholic any longer).  I have always viewed such generalizations as "things to investigate" and then to make sure I distance myself from if need be.  I have distanced myself completely away from the Catholic Church and I think this is a good response because there is a great deal of truth to many of those Catholic generalizations--in large part because this Pope is so insistant that everyone think whatever he thinks.  It makes less sense to argue for not making generalizations about Catholics under a Pope who is demanding everyone toe his line than it would have under John the 23rd who was busy trying to get people to start thinking on their own again and getting power moved back to a local level.

I think one needs to hold onto one's own sense of individuality (so if some of the many groups we all belong to get bashed we don't feel compelled to take it personally) and remember also that one can take the point I've been trying to make too far as well.  One could take this logic and say well statistically, it is more likely that a Black man (here in the U.S.) will commit a crime of violence than a white man.  Well, depends on the statistics, depends on how one manipulates the numbers (how one chooses to look at them, display them) and, all other things being equal, if that statement ends up being true I don't think the most helpful response is just that this is a gross generalization and we should ignore it.  If there is truth to it we need to discover why.  It won't be because they are Black per se, but it might be because being born Black in the U.S. still means you have a good chance of being born poor, into a neighborhood with a truly lousy school system, in an area where there are few honest jobs to be had, in a society that still sees your skin color before anything else.  Generalizations provide useful information--one way or another, sometimes about the people being generalized, sometimes about those making the generalizations.  It would be lovely to reach the point that this is not true.

Raye Rhys
Reference Librarian
Flad & Associates
Madison, Wisconsin
 
 
  --Boundary_(ID_C13oWGaHJ0IA72wThDbUxQ)-- From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 10-NOV-1999 11:19:07.37 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: Health problems in "high welfare" swine housing Health problems in pigs are often linked to changes in husbandry practices, and current industry trends are causing rising concern among swine veterinary specialists in the United Kingdom and Germany. In the European Union (EU), and especially in the UK, a combination of legislation and pork quality assurance schemes are driving towards more "welfare-orientated" housing systems which provide pigs with more comfort (solid floors and bedding) and freedom of movement than thepartially or totally slatted floors, bare concrete and restricted movement which have become very prevalent on pig farms over the last 2 decades. In the UK, total confinement of sows in stall or tether housing has now been banned (since January 1999). The "welfare-friendly" housing systems now being introduced seem eminently desirable and long overdue, but we are receiving field reports of increased disease problems following their implementation. Young growing hogs kept on solid floors and straw (as opposed to slatted floors) have shown increased condemnations for infectious joint problems. Loose-housed sows, formerlykept in stalls, have suffered problems of lameness, parasites and vulva-biting. Coccidiosis and swine dysentery are reported to be rising problems. Frank Tobin of the Holmefield Veterinary Group in Yorkshire says "Keeping sows in loose-housed systems has satisfied the welfare lobby, but the job of managing the pregnant animal is more difficult now than when sows were housed in stalls. In terms of the health of the breeding herd, it is questionable whether the move to loose housing has actually improved the overall welfare of the sow‹there are now so many more diseases and conditions affecting sows that were easily excluded in stalls". The field reports indicate farmers are experiencing increased difficulty in maintaining hygiene in the new solid-floor and loose-housing production systems. There is more opportunity for fecal-oral transmission of pathogens, increased sharing of pathogens via large group sizes, more social stress and sometimes an ideal environment (deep-bedded straw) for persistence and proliferation of pathogens. The full reports are on-line at: http://www.pighealth.com/housing.htm Michael Meredith Pig Disease Information Centre, UK From: IN%"Jon.Day@adas.co.uk" "Jon Day" 10-NOV-1999 11:28:23.62 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: 1999 Regional Winter Meeting of ISAE for UK and Eire IMPORTANT ANNOUNCEMENT It is with regret that the above meeting has been canceled due to a lack of= submissions. Many thanks go to those who did submit summaries. Could UK members please circulate this message to those who may have attend= ed the meeting and do not subscribe to the applied-ethology bulletin board? Jon Day. ISAE Regional Secretary for UK and Eire Dr. Jon E. L. Day ADAS Terrington Terrington St. Clement Kings Lynn Norfolk PE34 4PW Tel: +44 (0)1553 828621 Fax: +44 (0)1553 827229 e_mail: Jon.Day@adas.co.uk The information transmitted is intended only for the addressee and may cont= ain confidential and/or privileged material. Any use of, or taking of any action in reliance upon, this information by p= arties other than the intended recipient is prohibited. If you receive this in error, please contact the sender and delete the mate= rial from any computer. Opinions and other information in this message that do not relate to the of= ficial business of ADAS are neither given nor endorsed by it. From: IN%"jeffrushen@hotmail.com" "Jeffrey Rushen" 10-NOV-1999 12:46:08.72 To: IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Generalisations and explanations of meaning >******************************************************** >WARNING: >This message is not directly related to applied ethology (unless you >include human animals). Please delete and accept my apologies if you >are not interested. >*************************** > >Dear Hans, > >I understand your concern about generalizations but I can't agree with >how far you've taken this. Yes, some of the examples you gave are >excellent examples of stupidity and inaccuracies leading to further >problems (the beef war between Britain and France), but there are also >generalities that contain useful information. > Generalisations may be based on some statistical information but one problem is that we are not consistent in how we generalize. If I watch a TV story about a Serb killing a Kosovan, I may become angry at "Serbs" but if I read of a Canadian that murdered his mother in law, I am unlikely to become angry at Canadians (being one). I can well understand that a women that has been raped by a man may become angry and distrustful of "men", but would a women that had been beaten up by another women become equally angry at "women"? Jeff Rushen ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"bsimpson@pinehurst.net" 10-NOV-1999 13:32:56.87 To: IN%"sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: dogs eat feces sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch wrote: > > Hi you all: > > At the guide dog school in Switzerland they have a problem with their > labrador retrievers eating their own or other dogs' feces. This school has > been breeding and training labrador retrievers as guide dogs for blind > people since 1972. Lately, this new problem of feces-eating dogs arrived and > the dog trainers have no clue about the reasons. They suspected a change in > dog food (maybe companies started to use flavors that pass the dogs' > intestines and make feces attractive to dogs to eat). The feed commercial > dog food, but a change to meat and (commercial flakes) did not help. The > pups are raised at the school, then placed into foster homes and return at > the age of 15 months. Then they are kept in kennels during their training. > That is when the behavior starts. The dogs cannot be prevented eating the > feces without great force and otherwise suitable dogs had to be excluded > from the program. My questions: Has anybody noticed an increase urge of dogs > eating dog feces? Does anybody have a suggestion of a solution to this > problem? I would forward your ideas to the guiding school. > > Sabine Gebhardt > sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch Dear Sabine; Here are some comments/suggestions I made to an individual dog owner regarding coprophagy in his dog; perhaps some will be helpful to your situation. Best of luck with this problem. Barbara Simpson Barbara S. Simpson, PhD, DVM, DACVB The Veterinary Behavior Clinic 6045 U.S. Hwy 1 North Southern Pines, NC 28387 USA · Diagnosis: Coprophagy (Stool eating) · Coprophagy is an ingestive behavior involving the consumption of feces. Dogs may selectively ingest their own feces, feces of other dogs, cat feces, or any other type of feces. Coprophagy is normal in the cases of an adult bitch consuming the feces of her puppies. Coprophagy in young dogs is often seen and may be outgrown. When stool-eating appears in older dogs, it is considered abnormal, although it may be an expression of the nature of dogs to be scavengers. · The dog exhibiting coprophagy should be evaluated with appropriate laboratory tests. In a recent study conducted on 9 coprophagic dogs by Drs. Gary Landsberg and Larry Ackerman, all had at least one laboratory abnormality that could potentially explain the problem. The tests they conducted included complete blood count, complete biochemical profile, amylase, lipase, trypsin-like immunoreactivity, vitamine B12, folate, fecal fat, fecal trypsin, fecal muscle fibre, trace minerals (including zinc, selenium, ciper, iron, magnesium, and boron) and fecal sedimentation. · Because dogs can pick up internal parasites (worms) when eating the stool of other dogs, a fecal specimen should be taken to your primary veterinarian to rule out this problems. · Although nutritional deficiencies are often suggested as a cause of stool-eating, most dogs exhibiting coprophagy are fed a balanced ration not deficient in important nutrients. · The diet of the dog whose stools are being eaten should also be evaluated. Dogs fed a high protein diet may produce feces with significant nutritive value that other dogs, like yours, may find "tasty." Dogs are by nature scavengers and stools may represent a food source to them. In this way, stool-eating is reinforced. Underfed dogs or dogs on restrictive diets may exhibit the behavior since hunger can stimulate stool-eating. · In addition, the dog whose feces is being ingested should be evaluated for malabsorption or trypsin deficiencies, which may result in higher than normal amounts of undigested ingredients remaining in the stool. The diet of the dog whose feces is being ingested should also be examined. Converting that dog to a low-residue dies (such as I/D) may reduce the nutritive value fo the stool. · Be careful that you do not reinforce the behavior by giving greater attention to your dog when it eats feces. · Deny access to the feces by cleaning up the garden regularly. · On leash walks, the dog should be reprimanded when investigating feces and rewarded for moving away. · Painting an aversive substance, such as hot pepper sauce, on the feces may be helpful at teaching the dog to avoid feces. · Feeding a special substance (For-bid) to the dog whose stools are being ingested can produce a negative taste to the feces and teach the dog to avoid feces in the future. It is worthwhile to try different products, but some dogs will eat feces in spite of these agents. · Chemicals that produce nausea, such as lithium chloride, are the only way to permanently deter stool eating. Lithium chloride is not commercially available. · Altering the consistency of feces can be helpful. Most stool-eating dogs prefer firm stools. Producing scant stools by feeding a low residue dog food may help some cases, or increasing the bulk of the stool by feeding a high-fiber diet may deter other cases. A trial and error approach is needed. · Behavior modification may be used to deter the habit. Train your dog to walk on a leash and to sit quietly on command. Use a verbal reward ("good dog") and treats for this training. Also teach your dog a word that means "wrong". "NO!" or a low "EHHH" sound or the command "leave it" may be used. When these commands are used, they must be paired with a positive command to teach the dog the acceptable behavior. Start with paper wrappers (such as from candy bars). As you dog approaches and starts to stiff, given the negative command ("no" or "EHHH!" or "leave it") and call the dog to you. Ask the dog to sit and give it a treat for being obedient. If the dog ignores you, turn and walk away, pulling the dog with you, then find an opportunity to reward. Later, when you have perfect control with pieces of wrapper, work in the yard or collect feces and place them where you will walk by. Practice as before to teach your dog that stool sniffing and eating are not allowed, but acceptable behavior is rewarded. From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" 10-NOV-1999 14:29:52.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: New book: Livestock, Ethics and Quality of Life The following title will shortly be available from CABI Publishing: Livestock, Ethics and Quality of Life Edited by J. Hodges, formerly of the United Nations Food and Agriculture Organization, Rome, Italy and I. K. Hann, Seoul National University, Korea Publication date: November 1999 288 pages HB ISBN 0 85199 362 1 Price: £49.95 (US$90.00) Special prepublication offer for orders received by the end of November: £45.00 (US$80.00) Detailed information about the book can be found at http://www.cabi.org/CATALOG/BOOKS/Book_detail.asp?ISBN=0851993621 From: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Garner, Joseph P." 10-NOV-1999 14:32:27.58 To: IN%"chris@lovebirds.netlineuk.net" "'lovebirds'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List" CC: Subj: RE: feather picking shoulder - Trexon Hi there, sorry to be so tardy in reply, i have been away for the last week - Trexon is the old trade name for Naltrexone ("Revia" now known as). - Naltrexone is a mu and delta opiate receptor antagonist, similar to naloxone. - Naltrexone blocks the euphoria associated with mu-opiate agonist drugs of abuse (e.g. morphine) To my knowledge there is no evidence that the behaviour you describe is selectively suppressed by this class of drug, certainly they are not used in this context in humans. Naloxone has a number of side-effects including appetite-supression, nausea, and catelepsy. Naltrexone has similar effects on appetite, although I do not know whether it also induces catelpsy (but my guess is that it would). In fact, all of the drugs your vet may throw at the bird (neuroleptics, e.g. haloperidol), and SSRIs (e.g. prozac), have severe side effects, and again there is no evidence that these drugs are selective against this kind of behaviour. Any therapautic effect can be put down to a general supression of motor function. At the end of the day, you will know if your bird is able to lead a happy life, and does not appear unduly sedated or unitnerested in it's environment. If so, it may well be due to side-effects of the medication. Sorry to be the harbinger of bad news cheers Joe ___________________________ Joseph Garner Univeristy of California Department of Animal Science One Shields Avenue Davis CA 95616 USA Phone: (530) 754 5291 > -----Original Message----- > From: lovebirds [mailto:chris@lovebirds.netlineuk.net] > Sent: Saturday, October 30, 1999 2:30 AM > To: Applied Ethology List > Subject: feather picking shoulder - Trexon > > > I am appealing for any information list members may have on > this query I > received recently. > > "Trexon" is an unfamiliar name to me. Can anyone give the > generic name and > provide any information or experience on its use with > non-human patients, > especially birds? > > Thanks and Best wishes > > Chris (UK) > chris@lovebirds.netlineuk.net > > > > > > > Hi, > > > > Several months ago I wrote about my male lovebird who is > picking a spot on > > his shoulder. He has worn a collar to no avail. He seems > completely > > healthy and the vet thinks it is a behavioural problem. He > has just been > > started on a drug called Trexon that is supposed to help > with behavioural > > problems. It is used in people to treat drug addiction. I > just wondered > if > > you heard of this or have had a bird on it. > > > > > From: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Garner, Joseph P." 10-NOV-1999 15:35:18.50 To: IN%"sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch" "'sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dogs eat feces Hi all, Coprophagia is one of the wierd and wonderful behaviours that i am interested in. It is common in caged primates, and certain human = disorders. However in dogs there is considerable evidence that this behaviour can = also reflect dietary problems, particularly thiamine deficiency: Read, D. H., & Harrington, D. D. (1981). "Experimentally induced = thiamine deficiency in beagle dogs: clinical observations." American Journal of Veterinary Research 42(6): 984-91. If the problem is dietary, it may well represent an abnormal behaviour induced by the caged environment. In which case it may have more akin = with coprophagia in human disorders. In humans the only paper on treatment = that i am aware of is: Stewart, J. T. (1995). "Treatment of coprophagia with carbamazepine." American Journal of Psychiatry 152(2): 295. carbamazepine is an anti-epeleptic. When an expression of psychological pathology, I believe that these behaviours are related to human OCD and other impulsive behaviours. = These disorders respond well to SSRIs like Prozac or sertraline, although = these drugs take a number of weeks to take effect, and symptoms may be exaccerbated for the first week or two of treatment. You might also = like to try supplementing the diet with tyrptophan - a precursor of serotonin - which is effective against similar behaviours in rhesus monkeys. Importantly, in humans these behaviours respond best to a combination = of pharmacotherapy and behaviour therapy. Karen Overall recommends this approach for similar behaiours in dogs. SSRIs seem to move the patient = to the point where the behaviour becomes malleable, following successful training the patient can be taken off the drug. Hope this helps Cheers Joe > -----Original Message----- > From: sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch=20 > [mailto:sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch] > Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 1999 1:45 AM > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: AW: dogs eat feces >=20 >=20 > Hi Jon: >=20 > Those dogs return to the kennels at an age of 15 months after=20 > being raised > at foster homes. It is important to know that all methods of raising, > keeping, and training the dogs have not changed for more than=20 > 25 years, but > the problem of feces-eating dogs is new and increasing. This annoying > behavior persists after those dogs are placed in new homes,=20 > but it first > starts when the dogs return to the school. It could be an interaction > between the husbandry (kennel environment, availability of=20 > feces, etc.) and > some other factor that has arisen recently. The dog trainers=20 > are willing to > make changes within their capabilities (switch food, etc.),=20 > but they cannot > e.g. place those dogs into families during training, or make=20 > more elaborate > changes. >=20 > Best wishes, Sabine >=20 > -----Urspr=FCngliche Nachricht----- > Von: Jon Bowen [mailto:rondog@btinternet.com] > Gesendet am: Dienstag, 9. November 1999 10:12 > An: sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch > Betreff: Re: dogs eat feces >=20 > Possible causes? >=20 > if the dogs live in a barren environment during training then=20 > they may start > to experiment with eating/playing with their own faeces. This=20 > can become a > vice. >=20 > If people regularly rush to stop them it could become a=20 > reliable method of > getting attention. >=20 > Their may be some problem of digesting the food that is being=20 > used, so there > may be something attractive about the flavour of the stools. >=20 > My concenr would be that punishment and use of repellents=20 > added to the food > might reduce the problem but not deal with the true cause. >=20 > Sounds like we need a lot more information about the=20 > conditions these dogs > live in at kennels. >=20 > How old are they when they are kennelled? > What toys/methods of environmental enrichment are used with them? > How are they socialised? > Are they group housed? > At what age do the dogs start to eat faeces? >=20 > Best wishes, >=20 > Jon From: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Garner, Joseph P." 10-NOV-1999 15:48:15.21 To: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Garner, Joseph P.", IN%"sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch" "'sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dogs eat feces... TYPO! ooops typo! > > If the problem is dietary, it may well represent an abnormal behaviour > induced by the caged environment. should read "If the problem is NOT dietary, it may well represent an abnormal behaviour induced by the caged environment." D'oh! cheers Joe From: IN%"jeanpascal.guery@free.fr" "Jean-Pascal Guery" 10-NOV-1999 17:10:37.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_yQuw32X2yqUVPrvCt85rvg) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Do anybody knows how to contact Bertrand Deputte (french primatologist) = at Paimpont (France). Thanks. jeanpascal.guery@free.fr --Boundary_(ID_yQuw32X2yqUVPrvCt85rvg) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Do anybody knows how to contact Bertrand Deputte (french = primatologist) at=20 Paimpont (France).
Thanks.
jeanpascal.guery@free.fr
=
--Boundary_(ID_yQuw32X2yqUVPrvCt85rvg)-- From: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" 10-NOV-1999 17:24:22.66 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" Subj: RE: Mail overflow I have time limits on the computer too. I check the subject line and hit the delete key. This way I'll be able to avoid posts that my priorities and time constraints dictate I should probably not read. For example, I could go down the list and just hit "D" on all the "Mail overflow" posts. H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) From: IN%"Kenneth.Rutherford@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Kenneth Rutherford" 11-NOV-1999 03:54:07.05 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List (E-mail)" CC: Subj: hello Hello everybody, I'd like to introduce myself to the list. My name is Kenny Rutherford and I have just started a PhD in Edinburgh studying fractal analysis of behaviour as a indicator of stress in pigs and poultry. As well as behavioural indicators of stress relating to both acute stressors and the (chronic) effects of rearing environment on stress responses, I am interested in how temporal sequences of behaviour are described (i.e. measures of temporal complexity, behavioural diversity, bout structure) and analysed. I would like to add that, from the perspective of someone who is just starting out in applied ethology, the replies to questions posted on the list are generally a really good source of info and I would hate it if we started having just questions and no answers! cheers Kenny Kenneth Rutherford Division of Environment and Welfare Roslin Institute Roslin Midlothian Scotland EH25 9PS 0131 527 4328 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 11-NOV-1999 05:08:42.45 To: IN%"Jon.Day@adas.co.uk" "Jon Day" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: ISAE (UK AND EIRE) WINTER MEETING Dear All, I was greatly disappointed to see that Jon Day had to cancel the ISAE (UK and Eire) winter meeting due to lack of submissions. Jon had already put a substantial amount of time and effort into preparing this meeting for which we should thank him. It would be of great benefit if we could determine why the submission rate was low. Could ISAE (UK and Eire) members please send me a brief e-mail stating why they did not consider submitting, why they changed their minds, or why they were not planning on attending. Please give any reason, no matter how trivial you might consider this to be - all information will, of course, be treated in strictest confidence. Hopefully with this feedback we can make next years Winter meeting bigger and better than ever before. Please pass this message on to ISAE members who might not subscribe to the Applied-ethology network. Thanks in advance, Chris Sherwin From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 11-NOV-1999 06:04:47.42 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: RE: Health problems - there's more! re: Health problems in new "high welfare" swine housing Sorry, inadvertantly posted my message while still incomplete - please disregard first copy, which ends in mid-air! The second post is the full message. I have another report (from a farmer) to add to the one's I have collated at www.pighealth.com - will add it later today. Enquiries about the content of the reports should be conveyed to the respective authors, however the lady pig farmer does not want her contact details publicised, so you will have to take her story at face value. Michael Meredith From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 11-NOV-1999 12:52:46.95 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: Strategies for improving animal welfare A number of people have contacted me directly, asking for suggestions about how animal welfare improvements might be successfully implemented, given the disastrous UK experience of trying to implement change via the coercive, inflexible and insensitive (but deliciously simple and self-righteous) tool of pure (unsupported by other approaches) legislation. Claiming the "moral high ground" and demonising farmers was a surefire way to gain the (largely urban) public vote in our country and a surefire way to sell newspapers, but there has come a day of economic reckoning, confusion, panic and damaged relationships for all of us. Could it have been done differently? As a trainee vet I was fortunate to come into contact with "old hands" who were well versed in the problems, and the art of, persuading animal owners to take better care of their animals.... Lectures, appeals to "one's better nature" & pleading are all USELESS!..... Threats and Sanctions WORK, but DAMAGE the respect and trust essential to any continuing successful relationship...... What works is.... a) listening to the owner's point of view (their problem), making an effort to understand it, & sincerely empathasising b) coupling: measures to improve the animal's welfare - to - measures to improve the owner's welfare c) dramatising and visualising success in both areas "imagine how you and (grossly obese) fido will enjoy playing ball in the park together once you have stopped damaging his health with all those sugary snacks! - it will be like having a puppy again!" [perhaps the canine behaviourists in this forum can help us out with more pointers and examples] For a more comprehensive guide to strategies for implementing change, I would like to recommend "Promoting Health - a practical guide" by - for details go to: http://www.Amazon.co.uk/exec/obidos/ASIN/0702023086/pigdiseaseinfo0c [if you are in Europe] http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0702023086/pigdiseaseinform [outside Europe] These authors are addressing the context of human health, but if we substitute "animal owner" for "client" and use "veterinary approach" or "economic approach" in place of "medical approach" - then it is full of good tips. For example, it gives 5 main approaches: 1. The educational approach 2. The animal owner-centred approach 3. The societal change approach 4. The behaviour change approach 5. The veterinary or economic approach Each of these approaches reflects particular aims and values in the person implementing change. Hope this is of some help Good Luck - let us all know how it goes! Michael Meredith From: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Garner, Joseph P." 11-NOV-1999 13:16:43.09 To: IN%"Kenneth.Rutherford@bbsrc.ac.uk" "'Kenneth Rutherford'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: hello Hi Kenny, I really got into analysing sequences of responses in my Thesis, and compared information, relative entropy and markov analyses of the same sequences for their methodological strengths and weaknesses. If you are interested, i can send you a copy of my soon-to-be-available thesis. cheers Joe > -----Original Message----- > From: Kenneth Rutherford [mailto:Kenneth.Rutherford@bbsrc.ac.uk] > Sent: Thursday, November 11, 1999 1:53 AM > To: Applied Ethology List (E-mail) > Subject: hello > > > Hello everybody, > > I'd like to introduce myself to the list. > My name is Kenny Rutherford and I have just started a PhD in Edinburgh > studying fractal analysis of behaviour as a indicator of > stress in pigs and > poultry. As well as behavioural indicators of stress relating > to both acute > stressors and the (chronic) effects of rearing environment on stress > responses, I am interested in how temporal sequences of behaviour are > described (i.e. measures of temporal complexity, behavioural > diversity, bout > structure) and analysed. > I would like to add that, from the perspective of someone who is just > starting out in applied ethology, the replies to questions > posted on the > list are generally a really good source of info and I would > hate it if we > started having just questions and no answers! > cheers > > Kenny > > Kenneth Rutherford > Division of Environment and Welfare > Roslin Institute > Roslin > Midlothian > Scotland > EH25 9PS > > 0131 527 4328 From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 12-NOV-1999 02:47:25.04 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dogs eat feces Barbara Simpson wrote: > · Chemicals that produce nausea, such as lithium chloride, are the only > way to permanently deter stool eating. Lithium chloride is not > commercially available. Hello Everyone, First, thank you Barbara for the nice summary of your treatment protocol. I was concerned, however, about the taste aversion recommendation. Although one text does claim positive results and the possibility of permanent effectiveness derived from taste aversion for the control of coprophagy (Landsberg et al., 1997), the authors also note that the procedure is "impractical and excessive" (1997:113). Others have reported disappointing results. Hart & Hart (1985), for example, reported "little success" (1985:106) with the use of taste aversion for the control of coprophagy in dogs. Similarly, Rathore (1984) was unable to obtain a taste aversion effect lasting more than 24 to 48 hours. His study involved 10 dogs given 6 to 10 grams of LiCl. He observed that the dogs ate the vomitus containing the nauseant, but avoided the meat associated with nausea for 7.5 hours. Also Hansen and coworkers (1997) were unable to demonstrate effective control of sheep attacks by dogs through a taste aversion procedure. They did, however, report significant side effects, including aggression. Although taste aversion has been reported in a number of species, including the coyote (Gustavson et al., 1974), the dog may have undergone changes as the result of its domestication that militates against such learning (Bradshaw and Thorne, 1992:123). References Bradshaw J, Thorne C (1992). Feeding behaviour. In C Thorne (Ed), The Waltham Book of Dog and Cat Behaviour. Oxford: Butterworth-Heinemann. Gustavson CR, Garcia J, Hankins WG, Rusiniak KW (1974). Coyote predation control by aversive conditioning. Science, 184:581-583. Hansen I, Bakken M, Braastad BO (1997). Failure of LiCl-conditioned taste aversion to prevent dogs from attacking sheep. Appl Ani Behav Sci, 54:251-256. Hart BL, Hart L A (1985). Canine and Feline Behavioral Therapy. Philadelphia, PA: Lea and Febiger. Landsberg G, Hunthausen W, Ackerman L (1997). Handbook of Behaviour Problems of the Dog and Cat. Oxford: Butterworth Heinemann. Rathore AK (1984). Evaluation of lithium clhloride taste aversion in penned domestic dogs. J Wildl Manage, 48:1424. ***** Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA From: IN%"xavier@clermont.inra.fr" "BOIVIN Xavier" 12-NOV-1999 04:28:40.07 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Socialisation to human in dogs Dear all,=20 I'm looking for scientific litterature on socialisation in dogs, especially according to the various breeds that exist. I am aware about old works from Scott but I would find more information on genetic factors and the integration of the human in the social world of the dogs. Domestication led to many breeds with different behavioural characterists. Does it exist a variability of the socialisation process that could vary between breeds?=20 Xavier Xavier Boivin URH-ACS, INRA de Theix, 63122 St-Gen=E8s Champanelle, France e-mail xavier@clermont.inra.fr Tel (33) 04-73-62-47-02 fax (33) 04-73-62-41-18=20 From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 12-NOV-1999 11:19:09.40 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dogs eat feces Hello Everyone, Overly restrictive or isolatory confinement has been correlated with a higher incidence of coprophagy in dogs (Houpt, 1982). Recently, Beerda and coworkers (1999) have reported evidence suggesting that restrictive confinement may, in fact, represent a significant causal factor in the etiology of coprophagy. The authors also reported that gnawing behavior similarly increased in dogs housed under restrictive conditions. The dogs (beagles) in the study were first housed under unrestricted (outdoor) housing conditions, before being moved to more restrictive (indoors) conditions. The procedure suggests that the causative variable may not be restrictive-isolatory confinement alone, but rather points to the possibility that the stressful transition and adaptation demanded by the change of housing conditions may play a strong functional role in precipitating coprophagy. In conclusion, at least in some cases, coprophagy may be part of a general pattern of behavioral adaptation to stressful housing conditions, especially those involving increased restriction and isolation. References Beerda B, Schilder MBH, Van Hooff JARAM, DeVries HW, Mol JA (1999). Chronic stress in dogs subjected to social and spatial restriction: I. Behavioral responses. Physiol Behav, 66:233-242. Houpt K (1982). Ingestive behavior problems of dogs and cats. In VL Voith and PL Borchelt (Eds) Vet Clin of N Amer: Symposium on Animal Behavior. 12:683-692. Philadelphia, PA: W B Saunders Co. Steve Linday Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch wrote: > > Hi you all: > > At the guide dog school in Switzerland they have a problem with their > labrador retrievers eating their own or other dogs' feces. This school has > been breeding and training labrador retrievers as guide dogs for blind > people since 1972. Lately, this new problem of feces-eating dogs arrived and > the dog trainers have no clue about the reasons. They suspected a change in > dog food (maybe companies started to use flavors that pass the dogs' > intestines and make feces attractive to dogs to eat). The feed commercial > dog food, but a change to meat and (commercial flakes) did not help. The > pups are raised at the school, then placed into foster homes and return at > the age of 15 months. Then they are kept in kennels during their training. > That is when the behavior starts. The dogs cannot be prevented eating the > feces without great force and otherwise suitable dogs had to be excluded > from the program. My questions: Has anybody noticed an increase urge of dogs > eating dog feces? Does anybody have a suggestion of a solution to this > problem? I would forward your ideas to the guiding school. > > Sabine Gebhardt > sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch From: IN%"elfhund@hotmail.com" "Brenda Reed" 12-NOV-1999 17:33:08.28 To: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Generalisations and explanations of meaning Hans -- I wasn't generalizing, you are. I was talking about a specific incident. You have expanded my meaning way beyond what could possibly be understood in what I wrote. You have placed me in a bad light. I've tried to write and explain to you that I was not generalizing about Germans and that (although it is not pertinent) I do not demonize Germans for World War II, but see that event as an expression of human nature and the circumstances of the era. Other subscribers seem to be pointing out the problems with your stance better than I can, so I won't add more to this note. Sincerely, Brenda Reed >From: Hans Erhard >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re: Generalisations and explanations of meaning >Date: Wed, 10 Nov 1999 14:39:06 +0000 > >******************************************************** >WARNING: >This message is not directly related to applied ethology (unless you >include human animals). Please delete and accept my apologies if you >are not interested. >******************************************************** > >Dear Brenda, >Thanks for replying to my message. My reaction was not just a >response to the words "the Germans...", but about generalisations and >stereotypes in general. Let me explain my point of view a bit more. > >I've heard many generalisations and am getting increasingly worried >about them. >'The' Serbs against 'the' Croats, against 'the' Bosnians, 'the' Tutsi >against 'the' Hutu, 'the' Catholics against 'the' Protestants, 'the' >British against 'the' French, Germans, and Europe in general (foreign >devils, all of them), 'the' Americans being all obsessed with guns and >sex and violence, running around murdering each other. 'The' this >and 'the' that, and it doesn't help one single bit. We all do it, I >do believe that it is in our (human) nature to generalise. >Nevertheless, I try to fight the temptation. > >Where I come from, the term 'catholic' or 'protestant' describes what >church you go to on Sundays (if and when you go to church). A major >difference seems to be the speed with which you say he Lord's Prayer >(Catholics fast, protestants slow), and one lot is said to have >tougher knees from all that kneeling. In the UK in contrast, >'catholic' and 'protestant' come with a burden of hatred and >discrimination, which results in children bullying and fighting each >other from a very early age. This is in total disregard of the fact >that both are supposed 'to love one another'. > >A piece of news in the current 'beef war' between France and >Britain was that a few factories producing animal feed included the >run-off from their toilets in the process. This practice is >apparently illegal in France, and was stopped as soon as the >authorities found out about it. Fact is that these factories were in >France, and the resulting headline was 'The French feed human >excrement to cattle'. Public outcry in Britain, boycott of 'French' >products etc. (hence the apple producer going bankrupt) > >I believe that the generalisation 'THE FRENCH do this' is as >distorting as 'THE CATHOLICS do that' or, indeed 'THE GERMANS do >something else'. If you don't mean all members of a group, past, >present and future, then don't use the term for that group when >talking about only a part of that group. > >Apparently, there is some evidence that in some parts of the world, a >significant proportion of crime is committed by people with a dark >skin colour. If Blacks assault someone, you could say 'the Blacks >assault people'. In the long run, however, this leads to cases such >as one recently reported in Britain, where a young black man was >attacked by a group of white youth. When the police arrived, they >arrested the black man, presumably on the grounds that 'Blacks assault >people'. > >There is this 'Zero Violence' campaign here in the UK, which states >'Violence against women is a crime'. That sounds as if all men were >violent, and all women are innocent victims. Does that mean that if >you want to campaign against violence against men or children, you >have to start your own group? Why not 'violence is a crime'? > >A man sees a car collide with another car, because the driver hadn't >been paying attention. He finds out that the driver is female - and: >"Typical, a woman driver". When he then talks about the incident, he >talks about 'woman drivers'. Automatically, all women listening feel >defensive, and all men, regardless of their own driving record feel >safe, because they have obviously nothing to do with it. There is >something very wrong with that. > >The original issue, that you should pay attention when you're driving >a car has been changed to 'you should be male'. Why do we need >secondary attributes? Grouping includes and excludes people, often >indisciminately. Why not talk about the issue at hand? The bad >driving? > >The people who rape women in a war can be described by their >nationality, they can be described by their sex, or by the colour of >their skin, but that also allows them to hide behind those terms. Why >not call them rapists? " 'ZZZZ' (insert nationality, sex and skin >colour of your own choice) raped women" turns it into some political >act or statement. They are rapists, criminals, not 'ZZZZ' (insert >nationality, sex and skin colour of your own choice). > >I know that 'political correctness' got out of hand, and I regret >that my message looked like a personal attack on you. Nevertheless, >I am worried about gross generalisations, because even though you may >not mean any harm, prejudices and generalisations are very powerful, >and can lead to results you never intended. > >What we say (or think we say) is not always what other people hear. >If we all stop to think from time to time, maybe we can hear what >for example our children hear when we make sweeping statements about >a group of people. > >Hope that explains my point of view, and apologies if the message got >a bit long > >Hans > >********************************************* >Dr Hans Erhard >Macaulay Land Use Research Institute >Craigiebuckler >Aberdeen AB15 8QH >Scotland - UK >Tel.: +44 (0)1224 - 318611 >Fax.: +44 (0)1224 - 311556 >email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"Matthias.Duerschlag@uni-bayreuth.de" "Matthias Duerschlag" 13-NOV-1999 08:54:52.17 CC: Subj: applied ethology commands Dear list manager, is there a command to get a digest version of applied ethology, i.e. to get all the daily mailings in one file (like it is in discussion groups as COMPMED or ETHOLOGY; e.g. GET COMPMED DIGEST) Thanks M. Duerschlag -- ___________________________________________________________________ Matthias Duerschlag Department of Animal Physiology University of Bayreuth / NW 1 95440 Bayreuth / Germany phone: x49-921-55.24.04 Fax: x49-921-55.27.94 Email: matthias.duerschlag@uni-bayreuth.de Good planning is the essence of scientific work, but it is of no use sticking to a plan for its own sake, when your imagination tells you it ought to be changed. Biological research is much more of an art than a science, and an artist may think he has finished work of art in his head when he starts, only to find that it changes him as it emerges. ... Peter Crowcroft (1966) "Mice all over" ___________________________________________________________________