From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 16-NOV-2003 17:40:55.56 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: formal ethics cont. Those choices are being made by others too often. And your interpretation of following the Nazi party's message sounds just like the political correctness of our day in that nobody is encouraged to question, just follow. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: h.m. [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 7:35 AM To: 'Geiger'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: formal ethics cont. Jackie, No, Nazi reasoning was that you did not have a conscience - you simply followed the party's message. You did not have to think for yourself. At least that is my interpretation. CeAnn and Dr. Stricklin were (pardon me for speaking for you both) I believe saying that each person should think for themselves about what they feel is right. Scientists are educated so that they place a very high value on thinking for themselves. This discussion could fill many books -- and that view is not the total answer -- but I don't think that your interpretation is fair, Jackie. I get the impression that you feel strongly about some animal issues and want other people to agree with you. Be careful not to foist your attitude in turn. People were not meant to be all the same. Allow people to make their own choices. May I ask what your training/background is in? Your responses sound very much like someone I know trained in analytic philosophy. Heather -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 3:26 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician. Apparently Ceann and Ray think that their personal version of "the right thing" should be foisted upon everyone else!!!! Isn't that what the Nazi's reasoning was? Jackie Perkins From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 16-NOV-2003 19:25:39.78 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Nazism and ethics In a message dated 11/16/2003 3:43:12 PM Pacific Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: Jackie, No, Nazi reasoning was that you did not have a conscience - you simply followed the party's message. You did not have to think for yourself. At least that is my interpretation. No not at all. Nazism most definitely had a conscience and indeed relied on peoples moral sensibilities to support the cause. It also had a reasoning branch and rational philosophical foundations. It seems conscienceless and thoughtless to us because its ideology so violates ours and because our war propaganda accurately depicted the vile consequences. Yes, there was a mindless mass of nazi followers, but welcome to the human condition. Whether you are talking about fascists or Hindu pacifists 95% of the population is incapable or unwilling to rationally challenge their moral assumption or just do so enough to learn how to defend them. The problem with Nazism was not lack of morality, but the opposite it was too rigid, extreme and intolerant a morality. Nazi virtues included many things we value. Loyalty, hard work in service to a greater good, aspiring to change the world for the better, stamping out evil, opposing crime and destructive forms of social deviance, opposing the parasitism of the elite, patriotism, self-sacrifice, getting back to nature, self-improvement, promotion by standards of merit rather than privilege, and the rational examination of the natural world for the betterment of man. It is in part because of those meritorious principles that it was so successful for a while. What made the philosophy the most odious scourge of the 20th century were several things. The abandonment of respect for individual rights. Intolerance of diversity. The legislation of personal morality. The loss of the right to descent. Loss of accountability of the leadership. The loss of due process of law and public hearing. The justification of violence as a means to an end. The belief in compromise as a means to settle disputes. The politicization of scientific inquiry. When these deficiencies were combined with demagoguery that rationalized the prejudice, desperation and willful ignorance of the oppressed masses you have a recipe for horror. That is what led to the dual abominations of the "final solution" and WW2. We need to always be aware that evil looks very different from the inside. I'll let you decide to what degree your personal philosophy and our society have the same potential for catastrophe as Nazism did. I would submit though that ANY philosophy, no matter how seemingly virtuous and sensible, has a real capacity to become something abhorrent if it is framed in intolerance, self-righteousness, loss of respect for the individual, and extremism. From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 17-NOV-2003 04:23:53.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: home range versus territory How would you define "home range" versus "territory"? Are they the same or different things? For me, a home range is a more vaguely defined geographical area and might not actually be physically defended by the animals which occupy it. A territory, on the other hand, would be more defined and more vigorously defended. That's why home ranges but not territories can be overlapping. Am I right? I can't find these definitions in any of the textbooks I have. Best wishes Anna Olsson Anna Olsson Postdoctoral research fellow Animal Behaviour & Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Faz +351 22 609 9157 From: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 17-NOV-2003 05:55:33.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Do mammals (non-primate) learn sequences of actions? > The question I have is there hard evidence that > animals can learn "the proper > order" to do things when the environment does not > give cues as to what to do > next? This is an extremely interesting thought and relates to issues such as 'is out-of-sight out-of-mind'. Unfortunately, for practical reasons, it may be un-testable. You would have to place the animal in an environment with no environmental cues whatsoever. Is this possible? Animals will use the subtlest of cues for learning behaviour, some of which we humans can not perceive. A very interesting paper related to this was published recently... Warburton, H. Mason, G. (2003). Is out of sight out of mind? The effects of resource cues on motivation in mink. Animal Behaviour, 65 (4) 755-762 Regards to all ===== ....................................................................................................... Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists (Why spoil a good story with the facts?) ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 17-NOV-2003 08:38:17.73 To: IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk" "Moira Harris", IN%"ISAEnet-L@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE Moira and other ISAE members, I expect that you are not surprised to learn that the majority of ISAE members responded (to your message below) that they would prefer to have an e-discussion group that was limited to ISAE members. I would think that this is not surprising given that a large majority of ISAE members acknowledged that they unsubscribed from APPLIED ETHOLOGY some years ago. Thus, I believe that the important question now confronting ISAE has to do with what type of e-discussion group should be established. I would like to address three options. The first option is the easiest, least expensive, and most straightforward e-group setup, and this would be to simply restrict the “old” APPLIED-ETHOLOGY group to only persons who are ISAE members. This option, however, would still require some maintenance by a group monitor to check the membership list and subscribe and unsubscribe members who choose to participate in the e-group, develop a system of passwords, or some other system that limits access. The disadvantage of this first option, however, is that it shuts off ISAE and the e-discussion from the views of a number of persons who consider themselves to be “applied ethologists” – namely animal behavior therapists, animal trainers, veterinary ethologists, ethologists and students in biology working on applied problems, and a number and variety of animal, mostly dog, owners who have experience and interest in animal behavior – but who are not members of ISAE. Thus, the second option would be to simply continue with the APPLIED ETHOLOGY group as it currently exists – which does allow a wide-open discussion format and probably is the least expensive and easiest system to maintain. But it is obvious that the ISAE membership does not support this option of maintaining the status quo. First, we all receive more email than we can cope with in a reasonable amount of time, and limiting email is the primary reason stated or implied by persons who want a limited e-group for applied ethology. Second, trying to participate in an e-discussion group that has persons with such a wide range of interests, backgrounds, and educational levels is slow, tedious, and not the most productive use of time for students, faculty and researchers running in today’s rat race toward professional survival. Thus, even though I strongly believe that there is merit in having open discussions, I also do not believe that APPLIED ETHOLOGY has enough positive benefits to justify its continuation as it currently exits. And I can say this after I have invested some time in trying to get the APPLIED ETHOLOGY discussions more on track with I believe to be the current status of applied ethology within ISAE. However, I think that there are some critical questions that arise and are more fully addressed when non-ISAE members are made part of the discussion, and these are questions which I believe ISAE should give constant attention. The first that comes to mind has to do with defining ethology itself. There is a growing tendency to use ethology as simply a synonym for behavior. I do not agree that this is a productive approach for in taking such a wide view, applied ethology loses having any specific meaning as a scientific discipline. I still believe that ethology has meaning beyond simply trying to say behavior using a “sophisticated” term. The second question has to do with the relationship between applied ethology and animal welfare. ISAE is actively playing a leadership role in Europe in animal welfare, and not communicating the views of ISAE on the relationship between ethology and welfare to persons in other countries can create long-term problems – especially if there is not communication with those persons in other countries who consider themselves to be applied ethologists. These questions, of course, have arisen and will continue to arise within ISAE without “outside” input, but I believe that there can be merit in having a broad basis of transparency (and input) to these discussions. Therefore, I would like to raise the possibility of a third option that is a compromise between discontinuing the current APPLIED ETHOLOGY and starting an ISAE group that is restricted to ISAE members only. I propose that ISAE investigate the possibility of having an e-discussion that is optionally available for receiving and posting to all ISAE members. Additionally, the messages of the ISAE discussion would be available to be received by anyone who wishes to subscribe even if not an ISAE member. However, in order to post a message, a non-ISAE member would be required to submit their post through the electronic group monitor for screening before the message is posted. What I am proposing is a compromise between a completely limited and a completely open discussion group. Anyone would be able to view the discussion but only ISAE members could post without being monitored. Non-ISAE members could only post through the electronic group monitor. A major and important group that I have in mind that would be reached with this approach is undergraduate students interested in applied ethology– including my own. I do not think that it is reasonable to expect someone to volunteer to serve as e-discussion monitor without some type of recognition and compensation. Therefore, I would suggest that ISAE consider developing a user fee. I would suggest that ISAE members who wish to participate in the ISAE e-discussion would pay an optional 5 pounds additional in annual ISAE membership fees, which would then be paid to the institution that maintains the discussion list server and employs the e-group monitor. I would assume that this would be offered to the University of Saskatchewan. I realize that there are both pros can cons to my proposed third option – but I raise this issue in hopes that it will result in ISAE considering other options beyond moving to a completely restricted electronic discussion group. Because this message includes information related to the current APPLIED ETHOLOGY group, I am cross-posting this message. Ray Stricklin -----Original Message----- From: Moira Harris [mailto:Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk] Sent: Friday, November 07, 2003 7:03 AM To: ISAEnet-L@skyway.usask.ca Subject: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE Dear ISAE members, I have been concerned for some time that the applied-ethology list is no longer fulfilling its original function, that of a forum for discussion and information, for applied ethologists. It has become, increasingly, a space for ranting, insults and tediously long, winding and repetitive discussions -- all of which I find incredibly annoying. It's my suspicion I am not alone in thinking this. I recently posted a message asking applied-ethology subscribers to let me know if they were also members of ISAE: seventy-two (out of a total of 473 subscribers) replied that they were. Currently, ISAE has 671 members. I know that lots of us have unsubscribed from A-E, possibly out of irritation at its tone? It would appear that we currently have no satisfactory forum for electronic discussion. ISAEnet-L is an electronic list to which ISAE members (and ONLY ISAE members) are automatically subscribed. Currently, there is very little traffic: it is used for ISAE business, and to publicise meetings and for job adverts, and that's about it. I would like to see it used for discussion and sharing information, in the way that the applied- ethology network used to be. However, I'm aware that when this has been tried in the past there have been complaints from people who feel they are receiving too many email messages. What do you think? Would you like to see ISAEnet-L used as a discussion list? It might be possible (Joe and Derek, I don't know, would this be doable?) to have all ISAE members automatically subscribed to the part of ISAEnet-L that gives information and little traffic, with an opt-in extra for discusssion, for only those members who choose to subscribe to it. Could we start a discussion about this ....? Thanks, - Moira Harris ISAE Membership Secretary (P.S., FYI, below is a message I posted on A-E today) ----------------------------------------------------------------- Dear all, Thanks to the many of you who responded to my call a couple of weeks ago for members of the International Society of Applied Ethology (ISAE) who subscribe to the Applied-Ethology network to identify themselves to me. Seventy-two ISAE members have replied to me, out of a current total ISAE membership of 671. According to Joe Stookey's records there are now 473 subscribers to Applied-Ethology (and Joe informs me that at one time there were over 600). This does indeed suggest to me that use of A-E has changed over recent years, becoming both broader -- interests have obviously diversified, as evidenced by the wide-ranging nature of postings from the last few days -- but also losing some of the subscribers for whose benefit the list was originally set up. Some ISAE members who contacted me have commented that, while they are still subscribed to A-E, they are unhappy with its content (personal insults were a frequently-mentioned source of irritation). Other scientists and students I have talked to recently have expressed their reservations about using A-E as a source of scientific information. For example, it used to be common for somebody designing an experiment to ask for help from experienced A-E subscribers with experimental design, or the best place to obtain a particular piece of equipment. Postings of this kind do still happen, but they are becoming increasingly rare. Fear of ridule, non-constructive criticism and harassment (according to more than one person I have spoken to) are inhibitng postings of this kind, particularly from students. And the moral of all this is …. well there is no moral. I’ll leave you all to draw your own conclusions. And am posting (separately) information on how to apply for ISAE membership. Thanks and best wishes, - Moira Harris ISAE Membership Secretary ------------------------------------- Dr. Moira Harris Animal Behaviour and Welfare Group Dept. Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk Ecology and Epidemiology Group Dept. Biological Sciences University of Warwick Moira.Harris@warwick.ac.uk From: IN%"stefano@mindspring.com" "Steven Bentley" 17-NOV-2003 09:17:47.86 To: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE Hi Ray and all, I've been on the list for 1 1/2 years--reading the questions & answers=20= from the group. I would like to keep the status quo. However, I'm not an=20= applied ethologist or a member of the ISAE. I like Ray's suggestion for = a=20 compromise and would be comfortable just reading the email as I = understand=20 the number of emails is daunting and sometimes discouraging. I want to=20= thank Joe Stookey, Moira Harris, and Ray Stricklin for keeping the list=20= "alive," maintained, and trying to make it better. Peace, Steven Bentley On Monday, November 17, 2003, at 09:37 AM, Ray Stricklin wrote: > Moira and other ISAE members, > > I expect that you are not surprised to learn that the majority of ISAE > members responded (to your message below) that they would prefer to = have=20 > an > e-discussion group that was limited to ISAE members. I would think = that > this is not surprising given that a large majority of ISAE members > acknowledged that they unsubscribed from APPLIED ETHOLOGY some years = ago. > > Thus, I believe that the important question now confronting ISAE has = to do > with what type of e-discussion group should be established. I would = like=20 > to > address three options. > > The first option is the easiest, least expensive, and most = straightforward > e-group setup, and this would be to simply restrict the =93old=94 > APPLIED-ETHOLOGY group to only persons who are ISAE members. This = option, > however, would still require some maintenance by a group monitor to = check > the membership list and subscribe and unsubscribe members who choose = to > participate in the e-group, develop a system of passwords, or some = other > system that limits access. > > The disadvantage of this first option, however, is that it shuts off = ISAE > and the e-discussion from the views of a number of persons who = consider > themselves to be =93applied ethologists=94 =96 namely animal behavior=20= > therapists, > animal trainers, veterinary ethologists, ethologists and students in=20= > biology > working on applied problems, and a number and variety of animal, = mostly=20 > dog, > owners who have experience and interest in animal behavior =96 but who = are=20 > not > members of ISAE. Thus, the second option would be to simply continue = with > the APPLIED ETHOLOGY group as it currently exists =96 which does allow = a > wide-open discussion format and probably is the least expensive and=20 > easiest > system to maintain. > > But it is obvious that the ISAE membership does not support this = option of > maintaining the status quo. First, we all receive more email than we = can > cope with in a reasonable amount of time, and limiting email is the=20 > primary > reason stated or implied by persons who want a limited e-group for = applied > ethology. Second, trying to participate in an e-discussion group that = has > persons with such a wide range of interests, backgrounds, and = educational > levels is slow, tedious, and not the most productive use of time for > students, faculty and researchers running in today=92s rat race toward > professional survival. Thus, even though I strongly believe that = there is > merit in having open discussions, I also do not believe that APPLIED > ETHOLOGY has enough positive benefits to justify its continuation as = it > currently exits. And I can say this after I have invested some time = in > trying to get the APPLIED ETHOLOGY discussions more on track with I=20 > believe > to be the current status of applied ethology within ISAE. > > However, I think that there are some critical questions that arise and = are > more fully addressed when non-ISAE members are made part of the=20 > discussion, > and these are questions which I believe ISAE should give constant=20 > attention. > The first that comes to mind has to do with defining ethology itself. =20= > There > is a growing tendency to use ethology as simply a synonym for = behavior. I > do not agree that this is a productive approach for in taking such a = wide > view, applied ethology loses having any specific meaning as a = scientific > discipline. I still believe that ethology has meaning beyond simply=20= > trying > to say behavior using a =93sophisticated=94 term. The second question = has to=20 > do > with the relationship between applied ethology and animal welfare. = ISAE=20 > is > actively playing a leadership role in Europe in animal welfare, and = not > communicating the views of ISAE on the relationship between ethology = and > welfare to persons in other countries can create long-term problems =96 > especially if there is not communication with those persons in other > countries who consider themselves to be applied ethologists. These > questions, of course, have arisen and will continue to arise within = ISAE > without =93outside=94 input, but I believe that there can be merit in = having=20 > a > broad basis of transparency (and input) to these discussions. > > Therefore, I would like to raise the possibility of a third option = that=20 > is a > compromise between discontinuing the current APPLIED ETHOLOGY and = starting > an ISAE group that is restricted to ISAE members only. > > I propose that ISAE investigate the possibility of having an = e-discussion > that is optionally available for receiving and posting to all ISAE=20 > members. > Additionally, the messages of the ISAE discussion would be available = to be > received by anyone who wishes to subscribe even if not an ISAE member. > However, in order to post a message, a non-ISAE member would be = required=20 > to > submit their post through the electronic group monitor for screening=20= > before > the message is posted. > > What I am proposing is a compromise between a completely limited and a > completely open discussion group. Anyone would be able to view the > discussion but only ISAE members could post without being monitored. > Non-ISAE members could only post through the electronic group monitor. = A > major and important group that I have in mind that would be reached = with > this approach is undergraduate students interested in applied = ethology=96 > including my own. > > I do not think that it is reasonable to expect someone to volunteer to=20= > serve > as e-discussion monitor without some type of recognition and = compensation. > Therefore, I would suggest that ISAE consider developing a user fee. = I > would suggest that ISAE members who wish to participate in the ISAE > e-discussion would pay an optional 5 pounds additional in annual ISAE > membership fees, which would then be paid to the institution that=20 > maintains > the discussion list server and employs the e-group monitor. I would=20= > assume > that this would be offered to the University of Saskatchewan. > > I realize that there are both pros can cons to my proposed third = option =96 > but I raise this issue in hopes that it will result in ISAE = considering > other options beyond moving to a completely restricted electronic=20 > discussion > group. > > Because this message includes information related to the current = APPLIED > ETHOLOGY group, I am cross-posting this message. > > Ray Stricklin > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ethology/. It is a lay/professional list. Flaming not allowed. Established it 4 years ago, steady membership and not a lot of volume. Folks in pure applied ethology can post also. H.mcmurray From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 17-NOV-2003 14:28:21.23 To: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Alternative place for posting ethology messages It seems to have almost no volume. Are you sure you have the right group. Yahoo shows only one message for November. From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 17-NOV-2003 14:47:29.40 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE Anna, In answer to your question below - in recent APPLIED ETHOLOGY discussions there have been persons who claim to have professional credentials related to applied animal behavior - yet in some cases these persons were far distant in their views from any position that I would consider anything close to that of ISAE. Therefore, separating ISAE from these "applied ethologists" will not, in my opinion, serve the long term best interests of ISAE. As you note, Anna, in Europe ISAE has been recognized as a society that can and does provide scientific expertise and leadership on the topics of animal behavior and animal welfare. This is not true in the USA (and I believe is also not true in some other major countries as well - even though with the exception of Canada, I lack direct knowledge). It is not that ISAE is viewed negatively - rather it is more a matter of ISAE not having visibility. True, individual ISAE members are often asked to serve roles in their respective home country that deal with these topics - but not as an official function of ISAE as is true in Europe. This of course has been discussed at times at annual meetings - and there is not a straightforward answer to the issue. But having ISAE become recognized in all of the developed countries of the world, I believe would help lessen the separation over issues of animal welfare such as that recently seen within some of the APPLIED ETHOLOGY discussion. For example my comments regarding stopping wild animal exhibitions that are based on training and my comments on tail docking for cosmetic purposes would not even be an issue within much of Europe - or the ISAE membership. Yet, on an international basis, these points become very contentious - even among persons who claim an interest and professional grounding in applied ethology! I very much believe that ISAE should be truly _international_ in influence and focus and not just primarily EU in its impact. And I not suggesting that anyone within ISAE wishes to limit the focus; this greater influence and credibility in Europe simply emerged as a consequence of early events related to the founding of the society. However, on a larger scale, I fear that the widening gap on animal welfare, environmental issues, etc. is contributing to a greater separation of views among peoples of these countries on more important issues. Therefore, I confess that I feel a certain urgency in pushing to have all people give up what I would say is an out-of-date notion that how one treats animals is a matter of individual choice, and I believe that ISAE has a role to play in bringing this about on an international level. W.R. Stricklin -----Original Message----- From: Anna Olsson [mailto:olsson@ibmc.up.pt] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 2:08 PM To: wrstrick@umd.edu Subject: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE Dear Ray, Could you expand a bit on what you mean with this statement: *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** >The second question has to do >with the relationship between applied ethology and animal welfare. ISAE is >actively playing a leadership role in Europe in animal welfare, and not >communicating the views of ISAE on the relationship between ethology and >welfare to persons in other countries can create long-term problems – >especially if there is not communication with those persons in other >countries who consider themselves to be applied ethologists. These >questions, of course, have arisen and will continue to arise within ISAE >without “outside” input, but I believe that there can be merit in having a >broad basis of transparency (and input) to these discussions. Being partly responsible for coordinating ISAE representation at Council of Europe, I understand fully well the leadership role played by ISAE in Europe, but I don't quite get where you're aiming at concerning communication the relationship between ethology and welfare to persons in other countries. Please cross-post to the applied-ethology network if you find it suitable. Best wishes Anna > > Dr Anna Olsson Postdoctoral research fellow Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "h.m." 17-NOV-2003 15:15:18.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Alternative place for posting ethology messages Yes, that is the correct area. Membership is pretty loyal over the years (60-90 members) and now and then someone posts an article of interest. The volume as I said is low and some members actually like that. But anyone interested in ethology, natural history, animal training/behavior and yes, applied uses of ethology or pure applied ethology may post there. I founded it 4 years ago and although we do not actively moderate it, we keep an eye on it to prevent flaming. Heather -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 1:27 PM To: oryctolagus@earthlink.net; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Alternative place for posting ethology messages It seems to have almost no volume. Are you sure you have the right group. Yahoo shows only one message for November. From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 17-NOV-2003 16:51:54.32 To: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE Dr. Stricklin, I have been on this list since 1996 and I appreciate your attempts to bring about some quality control. It is interesting to watch the evolution of list behavior. I have always enjoyed the rather anarchist attitude on this list and how the professionals and others have been able to use this as a place to exchange information and ideas. But I agree that recently list manners have degenerated and the quality of the list discussions as well. So while the anarchist in me dislikes the idea of moderating the list, the realist recognizes it as a necessary step to re-establish both the tone and the quality of the discussions. I want to applaud you in not wishing to simply close the list membership to only ISAE members, which would be the easy solution. Maintaining communication between people of different educational and experience backgrounds is of great benefit. So, rather than lose the character and quality of the list completely, adding a moderator seems a logical, middle-ground solution. However I want to make a few suggestions: I feel that it would be best if you simply moderated everyone on the list, rather than impose ISAE and non-ISAE distinctions. My reason is that this could hurt the quality of the discussions. When a discussion is taking place, people are able to add their comments to an ongoing discussion. They can ask questions or interject observations. This can sometimes change the course of the discussion and there is some advantage to being able to "strike while the iron is hot." However, since a moderator can't live at their computer, there will always be a slight delay from the time that the member sends out their message and when the moderator can view it and send it along. If some members are having their messages posted immediately and others only come in after a delay, the discussion can become temporally disjointed and less effective. And the non-ISAE members will feel that they are being ignored and not heard--which I do not believe is your intent. Secondly, the choice of moderator: this is a dicey position and not one that I would leave to some grad student. The recent discussions turned disagreeable, not because of obscenities but a certain "in your face" debating style that was accusatory and disrespectful. However, I have also seen moderating on lists go too far and be used to limit discussion to only those views held by a powerful elite within the group who used this authority to prevent any attitudes of which they disapproved, amounting to what was essentially censorship and a strangling of discussion. You want to go between these extremes and that will take some finesse and tact. For this reason, I would suggest that the decision to have a moderator not be open-ended. Put a moderator in for a certain set time period and then re-evaluate at the end of that time period. At that time you can decide whether to continue the moderating or let the list go un-moderated for a set period of time. This way, the moderating is itself up for review at predictable points of time and decisions to have it or not have it can be decided at those times. This way the moderating can not become all-powerful and prevent itself from being discussed. So while I do agree with the suggestion to add a moderator to this list, I feel strongly that it would work best if equally applied and with a strong system of checks and balances in place. Sincerely, Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS PS When your standards for moderating are being discussed, I would like to put in a plug that people be asked to use their full names on their messages and preferably some information about their affiliations and geographic locations. Signing one's messages on a professional list with initials and aliases seems fairly disrespectful to me and has, at times, lead to misunderstandings. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Ray Stricklin" To: ; "ISAE net" Cc: Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 11:08 AM Subject: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE > Yes - I am proposing that there be a user fee for an e-discussion group that > is optionally available for ISAE members, while also making subscription to > the e-discussion available at no cost to non-ISAE members. > > As I stated in my first message on this topic, I think that there is benefit > to having persons who are not ISAE members at least be able to receive the > e-discussion on applied ethology. There can be educational value from having > these persons better informed on topics about applied ethology and also > about the activities of ISAE. Thus, making the discussion available to the > public - especially undergrads as I said previously - I believe is worth a > few dollars/pounds per year for the members of ISAE who choose to subscribe > to the e-discussion. Additionally, I think that there are views that some > non-ISAE members have on applied ethology that can be beneficial when stated > appropriately; thus, I proposed a monitor for the e-discussion to allow > posting of questions and comments from these persons. I do not believe that > simply blocking off ISAE from the rest of the world is the best answer to > solving the current problems associated with APPLIED ETHOLOGY. Doing so, I > would argue is a quick fix, short term strategy that could contribute to > long-term problems; specially problems related to the widening gap in the > understanding of animal welfare and that of defining the discipline of > applied ethology, both topics I previously mentioned. > > Further, I would suggest that maintaining a server list, in fact, does not > come "free" under any circumstances. Some ISAE members at the University of > Saskatchewan currently are providing this service - maybe one could say > subsidizing this service - and have been being so for some time. I do not > know if there is currently any financial support provided by ISAE for this > activity, but if not, then I would suggest that at some point in time, > consideration should/must be given by ISAE to providing support - regardless > of the format for the e-discussion group that is adopted in the future (and > this could be happening now, but I have not followed the past ISAE policy on > this subject). > > It would not be surprising if some ISAE members argue that none of their > fees should be used to "subsidize" the list in order to make the service > free to non-ISAE members. But, the majority of us "senior" ISAE members pay > our membership fee from grant money, annual operating, etc. - and not from > our own pockets. This is usually not true for graduate students, and thus > maybe they should be exempt from paying a user fee. And keep in mind that my > proposal was that subscription to the e-discussion group would be optional > for ISAE members. However, and to state again, I think that _all_ ISAE > members must expect that eventually they also will have to pay at least > something toward the support of a list server for their society membership. > Regarding having a monitor, my suggestion is that it should be someone at > the University of Saskatchewan. In the past I believe that Joe Stookey has > said that he did not want that role. However, I would suggest that this > could be done by a senior grad student or post doc. Possibly the "position" > of e-discussion monitor could be recognized as an official position by ISAE. > > I see no easy method of collecting a user fee from non-ISAE members. But > never-the-less, as I have said, I consider making the e-discussion available > to the public at large as having educational value - and thus beneficial to > the long-term future of ISAE. > > Ray Stricklin > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Sharon Crowell-Davis [mailto:scrowell@vet.uga.edu] > Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 12:14 PM > To: Ray Stricklin; ISAE net > Subject: Re: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE > > Ray: > > Do I understand this correctly that you are proposing that ISAE members > pay a fee in order to pay someone to monitor the posts of non-ISAE > members? > > Sharon > From: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "h.m." 17-NOV-2003 17:07:53.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Animal Welfare and humane euthanasia: Priorities Perhaps this example might raise pure applied ethologists' awareness as to why people like me who studied ethology wonder where AE is going. A quick search with google located the following link http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/97issues.htm#Issue11 Animal Welfare Issues compendium ;A Collection of 14 Discussion Papers ;September 1997. You are referenced there, so I would assume that this compendium includes AE scientists or at least impacts them. A whole section deals with Rabbit welfare. One of the 2 co-authors is the well-known rabbit meat scientist, Dr. McNitt - author of "Rabbit Production" (2000). A look at this book's index finds NOTHING about euthanasia, but three references to "Easter Rabbit" (as in " The "Easter Bunny Syndrome" makes rabbit producers particularly vulnerable to criticism." See that above link). A further look shows that "Slaughter" is covered. Just 2/3's of ONE PAGE covers slaughter methods: stunning or dislocation of the neck. Dr. McNitt recommends that the former not be used by inexperienced folks or in processing large numbers of rabbits; and, the other method he only recommends for small rabbits. That leaves a lot of rabbits out. Compare this famous man's coverage of rabbit euthanasia/slaughter with the most recent USA Vet guidelines for euthanasia and you will learn that rabbits remain aware for 15 seconds after cervical dislocation (while being hung and bled) and it is not recommended. McNitt, in the above link recommends these two methods back in 1997 and the use of electrocution. (euthanasia methods are not even first on the list of discussed items for rabbits). Yet, a study with just 8 rabbits FAILED to kill one of the 8 rabbits with electrocution and it is not recommended, either. Only captive bolt stunning is recommended. I am honestly completely bewildered as to the lack of apparent respect for the breadth and impact of humane rabbit euthanasia in either of McNitt's references. It has been six years and still nothing has advanced to my knowledge in Europe or the USA regarding the humane slaughter of rabbits; yet, the meat industry is growing leaps and bounds if you go by what the United Nations AGAP (FAO) says. There is apparently a tremendous amount of work being done on cage size, breeding naked rabbits, how to breed rabbits more often, etc. but I wonder how many of those applied ethology researchers know some simple facts about rabbits like, as many as 50% of rabbits within a warren may permanently pair bond (for life) and that rabbits in captivity as pets are often known to grieve and die after a bonded mate dies (even if another rabbit is introduced). Whereas these studies appear to be funded, classic ethological observations of wild O.cuniculus don't seem to be. In fact, right as we speak, rabbits who have lived protected (genetic structure of the warrens intact) for over 40 years in the only warren tunnels documented in the USA to have been in continuous use for that time period -- these rabbits are being culled (actually it appears as it the park might be also burning the cover over warrens - they won't explain if they are or not). The San Juan Island Nat. Park got a new Superintendent and he considers them a pest. Are any AE folks here or internationally screaming over this loss of a valuable research resource? No. Please count this as feedback from-an-outsider-to-AE to those conducting studies about maximum rabbit density in confinement rearing and other things. There is a big empty spot in our ethological knowledge for O.cuniculus. And, this particular ethologist-trained person thinks that there is a great big empty spot in the rabbit-welfare priority list. If you are going to eat the rabbit then kill it humanely. If you can't do that then don't eat it. Heather -----Original Message----- From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 1:47 PM To: Anna Olsson Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE Anna, [text cut] " Therefore, I confess that I feel a certain urgency in pushing to have all people give up what I would say is an out-of-date notion that how one treats animals is a matter of individual choice, and I believe that ISAE has a role to play in bringing this about on an international level." [text cut] Dr Anna Olsson Postdoctoral research fellow Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"D.Lee@mcri.ac.uk" "Diane Lee" 18-NOV-2003 03:49:07.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Do mammals (non-primate) learn sequences of actions? on 17.11.2003 11:55, Laika the astronaut at laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk wrote: > >> The question I have is there hard evidence that >> animals can learn "the proper >> order" to do things when the environment does not >> give cues as to what to do >> next? > > Unfortunately, for practical reasons, it may be > un-testable. You would have to place the animal in an > environment with no environmental cues whatsoever. Is > this possible? Animals will use the subtlest of cues > for learning behaviour, some of which we humans can > not perceive. On that thought, and I know this is a little abstract to the topic, but who is to say that HUMANS can learn "the proper order" without any environmental cues? As Laika (the astronaut!) says, it's pretty much untestable. For example, in learning a dance routine (which in theory could be done in a bland room with minimal cues), one would take the current position of say an arm or leg as a cue of what to do next. Would love to know of studies! From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 18-NOV-2003 10:26:02.26 To: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "h.m.", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Animal Welfare and humane euthanasia: Priorities I am not certain that I understand the intent the message below. The primary point seems to be related to slaughter techniques. But if one looks at the link cited, the authors of the article stated: "Humane slaughter has been and will continue to be a concern of both animal user and animal protection groups. Unlike other farm livestock, rabbits are not covered by the Humane Slaughter Act (Anon. 1906); however, interest is high in securing more humane methods for stunning (Anon. 1992)." I would assume that most persons would agree with this position? But, in the message below there seems to be the impression that persons in applied ethology "control" or somehow have some major influence over the meat industry. In the USA this is simply not true. It is true that many of us applied ethologists have written guidelines, articles, etc. on animal welfare - and maybe it can be argued that we have not done enough. But when asked to write an article about the welfare of rabbits used in meat production, making a blanket attack on all persons who raise rabbits and anyone else remotely associated with the activity is not likely to result in any constructive endpoint. I have inserted a few additional comments in the text below, indicated with <<<< and >>>>. W.R. Stricklin -----Original Message----- From: h.m. [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 6:07 PM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Animal Welfare and humane euthanasia: Priorities Perhaps this example might raise pure applied ethologists' awareness as to why people like me who studied ethology wonder where AE is going. >>>I too at times wonder where AE is going - but my concern has basically nothing in common with the points below.>>> A quick search with google located the following link http://www.nal.usda.gov/awic/pubs/97issues.htm#Issue11 Animal Welfare Issues compendium ;A Collection of 14 Discussion Papers ;September 1997. You are referenced there, so I would assume that this compendium includes AE scientists or at least impacts them. >>>A number of the authors who contributed to the document at the above link are indeed (USA) applied ethologists (but Dr. McNitt is not an ethologist) and in most every case in this series of articles, the applied ethologists negotiated in some strength to move the position of industry more toward being better informed about animal welfare. However, I can also state that there was pressure from "industry" to limit what was said. Additionally, this document is not a refereed or scientific journal article. Rather, it was a document that was prepared with the food animal owners themselves as the target audience. The intended and primary goal of this document was to make the animal owners aware that they have an obligation to ensure appropriate welfare of their animals - and to point out some of the factors that can influence well-being. This document was _not_ intended to establish standards or endorse (or limit for that matter) any practices.>>> A whole section deals with Rabbit welfare. One of the 2 co-authors is the well-known rabbit meat scientist, Dr. McNitt - author of "Rabbit Production" (2000). A look at this book's index finds NOTHING about euthanasia, but three references to "Easter Rabbit" (as in " The "Easter Bunny Syndrome" makes rabbit producers particularly vulnerable to criticism." See that above link). >>>Not sure what the intended point is in the above. Indeed, there is in fact a "Bambi," "Easter Bunny," or "cute animal" effect. Ethologists, I would hope, are familiar with this phenomenon - for Lorenz himself wrote on this subject! See: http://www.meangene.com/scienceOfCuteness/ This "cute animal" phenomenon I believe is a real problem for it is much easier to gain support for issues related to the "cute" veal calf when in fact the "ugly" older, more socially developed, etc. sow in a gestation stall is not at all as likely to gain as much attention. >>>> A further look shows that "Slaughter" is covered. Just 2/3's of ONE PAGE covers slaughter methods: stunning or dislocation of the neck. Dr. McNitt recommends that the former not be used by inexperienced folks or in processing large numbers of rabbits; and, the other method he only recommends for small rabbits. That leaves a lot of rabbits out. Compare this famous man's coverage of rabbit euthanasia/slaughter with the most recent USA Vet guidelines for euthanasia and you will learn that rabbits remain aware for 15 seconds after cervical dislocation (while being hung and bled) and it is not recommended. McNitt, in the above link recommends these two methods back in 1997 and the use of electrocution. (euthanasia methods are not even first on the list of discussed items for rabbits). Yet, a study with just 8 rabbits FAILED to kill one of the 8 rabbits with electrocution and it is not recommended, either. Only captive bolt stunning is recommended. >>>I have no first hand knowledge of rabbit slaughter. However, the article in the link above clearly refers to electrical stunning - not electrocution of animals. And I do not believe that there is any documentation that animals remain "aware" for 15 seconds after cervical dislocation. There may be recorded brain activity after cervical dislocation - but this not necessarily the same as being "aware.">>> I am honestly completely bewildered as to the lack of apparent respect for the breadth and impact of humane rabbit euthanasia in either of McNitt's references. >>> I am not sure that euthanasia is the correct term when referring to the slaughter of animals for food - or a term that would be appropriate when one is writing a book on the subject of meat production. Yes, euthanasia would be the appropriate term for killing research and companion animals (which is the primary target animals of the AVMA document referred to above), and yes, then chemical euthanasia would be practical. However, for animals that are to eaten by humans, such a procedure would not be acceptable for obvious reasons. And yes, even though euthanasia may not be the correct term, I would argue that we should employ the method that results in the least pain and suffering to the animal when it is killed. Often, however, this method may not be the one that appears to be the least "violent" for in fact a blow to the head - as in clubbing, when done properly - may cause the least suffering for the animal. And also one should keep in mind that euthanising one rabbit in a vet clinic is a considerably different endeavor from killing several thousand rabbits in one day for meat production. Again, I am not trying to provide a justification or endorsement for any given slaughter technique - and certainly not one that is less acceptable than others - but I am trying to point out that when getting into the real world of trying to improve food animal welfare, then there are considerations that must not be overlooked if one is to actually make progress. >>> It has been six years and still nothing has advanced to my knowledge in Europe or the USA regarding the humane slaughter of rabbits; yet, the meat industry is growing leaps and bounds if you go by what the United Nations AGAP (FAO) says. >>> Again, humane slaughter (an oxymoron?) is not my area. However, let me pose a challenge. Given that one is charged with the responsibility of writing standards for humane slaughter of rabbits, then what should these standards include? And if there is a contention that more research is needed, then what should this research involve? And also given the expense associated with even small research investigations, why is the research necessary - given that such research may have been done on other quite similar species? (Not suggesting that one must endorse eating rabbit; only saying that given that one is charged with writing such standards, then how does one write something that results in progress - and not more alienation and distancing between the parties involved.)>>> There is apparently a tremendous amount of work being done on cage size, breeding naked rabbits, how to breed rabbits more often, etc. but I wonder how many of those applied ethology researchers know some simple facts about rabbits like, as many as 50% of rabbits within a warren may permanently pair bond (for life) and that rabbits in captivity as pets are often known to grieve and die after a bonded mate dies (even if another rabbit is introduced). >>> My prediction would be that, on the basis of percentages, just as many applied ethologists are aware of the above as are "pure" ethologists.>>> Whereas these studies appear to be funded, classic ethological observations of wild O.cuniculus don't seem to be. >>> NSF has for a considerable number of years funded "pure" behavior research (but will not provide any support for domestic food animals). However, there is no equivalent funding for "behavior" from the US Department of Agriculture. There is funding for animal welfare, which started about 8 years ago when this category (called Well-being) was tacked onto the category entitled "Animal Health" - which means that the veterinarians interested in disease, etc. are the dominant persons in determining which farm animal welfare research is funded in the USA. However, because most veterinarians - and animal scientists for that matter - view stress physiology/endocrinology as being more "scientific" than is behavior, per se, then it is very, very difficult to get a purely behavior (with no physiology) research project funded for food animals in the USA. >>> In fact, right as we speak, rabbits who have lived protected (genetic structure of the warrens intact) for over 40 years in the only warren tunnels documented in the USA to have been in continuous use for that time period -- these rabbits are being culled (actually it appears as it the park might be also burning the cover over warrens - they won't explain if they are or not). The San Juan Island Nat. Park got a new Superintendent and he considers them a pest. Are any AE folks here or internationally screaming over this loss of a valuable research resource? No. Please count this as feedback from-an-outsider-to-AE to those conducting studies about maximum rabbit density in confinement rearing and other things. There is a big empty spot in our ethological knowledge for O.cuniculus. And, this particular ethologist-trained person thinks that there is a great big empty spot in the rabbit-welfare priority list. If you are going to eat the rabbit then kill it humanely. If you can't do that then don't eat it. >>> I agree that more research is needed in a large number of areas related to welfare of food producing animals - including rabbits. However, because the typical American consumes far less than 1% of their animal protein from rabbits - and for example, over 8 billion (10*9) chickens are killed each year in the USA - then I would argue that the need for funding is greater in the "traditional" food animal species. And I hope to see the day come when in fact applied ethologists are the group who have the greatest influence on animal welfare in the USA. At that time, then many of the points raised above will, I believe in fact, then be addressed. As it stands today, applied ethologists have only minor impact on the points raised above - but the good news may be that their influence tends to be increasing.>>>> From: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "Jo Angleberger" 18-NOV-2003 11:24:15.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE May I offer another option that combines elements already discussed and also gained from past personal experience? For 3 years I operated a nature writing critique workshop on the internet. No difference in the amount of flames existed compared to most other email lists, so with the help of some devoted members, we came up with an enforceable policy for posts. Our policy did not require constant moderating or screening of messages: 1) A member making a first questionable post was warned privately with a brief form letter. 2) A second such post got personal attention from me specific to the content of the post and the writer's intentions, and the warning that a 3rd such post would mean suspension or termination of membership. 3) Meanwhile, other members were assured that offenses would be handled and they were requested not to respond privately or publicly to any offensive posts--effectively keeping the list mail very well on topics. 4) List members were also encouraged to let me know if a particular post bothered them or if someone was flaming them privately. Also, why not just require all A-E members to have complete signatures with name and affiliations. Some now do this out of courtesy or professionalism, others (like me, sorry) do not. My own signature is short because I've not been able to work for several years thanks to osteoarthritis, and my 3rd surgery is coming up on Dec. 9. This list and others provide me with some of the stimulation I miss intensely. Jo Angleberger MA, Wildlife Behavior _________________________________________________________________ Send a QuickGreet with MSN Messenger http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_games From: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 18-NOV-2003 11:55:33.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE --- Jo Angleberger wrote: > May I offer another option that combines elements > already discussed and also > gained from past personal experience? > > For 3 years I operated a nature writing critique > workshop on the internet. > No difference in the amount of flames existed > compared to most other email > lists, so with the help of some devoted members, we > came up with an > enforceable policy for posts. Our policy did not > require constant > moderating or screening of messages: > 1) A member making a first questionable post was > warned privately with a > brief form letter. > 2) A second such post got personal attention from me > specific to the content > of the post and the writer's intentions, and the > warning that a 3rd such > post would mean suspension or termination of > membership. > 3) Meanwhile, other members were assured that > offenses would be handled and > they were requested not to respond privately or > publicly to any offensive > posts--effectively keeping the list mail very well > on topics. > 4) List members were also encouraged to let me know > if a particular post > bothered them or if someone was flaming them > privately. > > Also, why not just require all A-E members to have > complete signatures with > name and affiliations. Some now do this out of > courtesy or professionalism, > others (like me, sorry) do not. My own signature is > short because I've not > been able to work for several years thanks to > osteoarthritis, and my 3rd > surgery is coming up on Dec. 9. This list and > others provide me with some > of the stimulation I miss intensely. > > Jo Angleberger > MA, Wildlife Behavior > > _________________________________________________________________ > Send a QuickGreet with MSN Messenger > http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_games To my mind, setting up a list with a moderator is anticipating that people will use a bulletin board inappropriately. This should not be necessary. The original intention of this A-E list was to encourage curteous, informed discussion amongst members of a professional society, i.e. ISAE. If members had sent unprofessional, ranting or otherwise inappropriate messages, I'm sure they would have 'suffered' by a loss of perceived professional status. In effect, the list was self-moderated based on self-respect for ones professional reputation. Setting up a moderator has many problems - self-moderation should be the way to go. ===== ....................................................................................................... Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists (Why spoil a good story with the facts?) ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 18-NOV-2003 12:11:45.30 To: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "Jo Angleberger", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE I think that these recent posts regarding how the A-E could be structured will be helpful to ISAE persons who will decide what changes will be made. (In the internet nature writing critique workshop that you conducted, what - or who - was critiqued? Was this an on-line course for university credit?) W.R. Stricklin -----Original Message----- From: Jo Angleberger [mailto:warblerneck@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 12:23 PM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Re: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE May I offer another option that combines elements already discussed and also gained from past personal experience? For 3 years I operated a nature writing critique workshop on the internet. No difference in the amount of flames existed compared to most other email lists, so with the help of some devoted members, we came up with an enforceable policy for posts. Our policy did not require constant moderating or screening of messages: 1) A member making a first questionable From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 18-NOV-2003 12:52:26.75 To: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "Laika the astronaut", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE To my mind, setting up a list with a moderator is anticipating that people will use a bulletin board inappropriately. This should not be necessary. The original intention of this A-E list was to encourage curteous, informed discussion amongst members of a professional society, i.e. ISAE. If members had sent unprofessional, ranting or otherwise inappropriate messages, I'm sure they would have 'suffered' by a loss of perceived professional status. In effect, the list was self-moderated based on self-respect for ones professional reputation. Setting up a moderator has many problems - self-moderation should be the way to go. -------------------------- I am not sure that you understand the views of many (possibly/probably the majority) of ISAE members. While I have no actual numbers, the emails that came into the ISAEnet-1 in response to Moira's message in the majority of cases stated that the list should be limited to ISAE members only. It is not just the improper behavior that is of concern to these persons, but also they do not wish to "dig through" a large amount of verbiage to find the information that they consider of interest, importance, etc. (I do not necessarily agree in total with this view, but never-the-less, it seems to be the majority position.) I am suggesting that the list can benefit from having other persons continue being able to post to group. However, as indicated above, I do not believe that ISAE members will, in the majority, support a discussion format that permits unrestricted posting by the public at large. (And I could be wrong in my supposition about the position of the majority of the membership - but obviously, I do not think so.) And if the majority oppose open postings, then some system of screening through a moderator was a compromise position that I suggested would allow continued contributions by non-ISAE members. A goal of a number of ISAE members is to get the ISAE membership once again involved in an e-discussion format. This may not be possible, but it is goal that I support. Having a large amount of material posted by non-ISAE members that is not considered "current" by ISAE members is not likely to encourage their participation or gain their support. I suppose that starting with a bulletin board that is unrestricted could first be attempted - before trying a system with a moderator if that later proves necessary. However, one problem with this could be that if it is tried and does not meet with success, then the ISAE members, who rejoined but then dropped out, would not likely support any type of discussion group other than one completely restricted to ISAE members in the future. W.R. Stricklin From: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "h.m." 18-NOV-2003 13:43:53.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE As I have said off list, if the list were closed or not publically archived I would be willing to post name, city, etc. but not on a public list publically archived. I am sorry. It is not recommended on other lists for safety. Heather -----Original Message----- From: Jo Angleberger [mailto:warblerneck@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 10:23 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE May I offer another option that combines elements already discussed and also gained from past personal experience? For 3 years I operated a nature writing critique workshop on the internet. No difference in the amount of flames existed compared to most other email lists, so with the help of some devoted members, we came up with an enforceable policy for posts. Our policy did not require constant moderating or screening of messages: 1) A member making a first questionable post was warned privately with a brief form letter. 2) A second such post got personal attention from me specific to the content of the post and the writer's intentions, and the warning that a 3rd such post would mean suspension or termination of membership. 3) Meanwhile, other members were assured that offenses would be handled and they were requested not to respond privately or publicly to any offensive posts--effectively keeping the list mail very well on topics. 4) List members were also encouraged to let me know if a particular post bothered them or if someone was flaming them privately. Also, why not just require all A-E members to have complete signatures with name and affiliations. Some now do this out of courtesy or professionalism, others (like me, sorry) do not. My own signature is short because I've not been able to work for several years thanks to osteoarthritis, and my 3rd surgery is coming up on Dec. 9. This list and others provide me with some of the stimulation I miss intensely. Jo Angleberger MA, Wildlife Behavior _________________________________________________________________ Send a QuickGreet with MSN Messenger http://www.msnmessenger-download.com/tracking/cdp_games From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 18-NOV-2003 13:57:33.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Animal Welfare and humane euthanasia: Priorities In reference to the comments in the message below, I would suggest that one read the AVMA panel report more fully. Starting page 682: "Cervical dislocation is a technique that has been used for many years and, when performed by well-trained individuals, appears to be humane. However, there are few scientific studies to confirm this observation. This technique is used to euthanatize poultry, other small birds, mice, and immature rats and rabbits. ... Advantages - 1) cervical dislocation is a technique that may induce rapid loss of consciousness. 2) It does not chemically contaminate tissue. 3) It is rapidly accomplished. Disadvantages - 1) Cervical dislocation may be aesthetically displeasing to personnel. 2) Cervical dislocation requires mastering technical skills to ensure loss of consciousness is rapidly induced. 3) Its use is limited to poultry, other small birds, mice, and immature rats and rabbits. Recommendations- Manual cervical dislocation is a humane technique for euthanasia of poultry, other small birds, mice, rats weighing <200g, and rabbits weighing < 1kg when performed by individuals with a demonstrated technical competency..." Additionally, I would suggest that the following sentence that is quoted below from the AVMA document, i.e., - "Data suggest that electrical activity in the brain persists for 13 seconds following cervical dislocation, and unlike decapitation, rapid exsanguination does not contribute to loss of consciousness." - is not at all a very clearly written sentence! And in fact I am not certain that I understand what the authors meant. However, I think that the compound sentence that they have presented has two entirely different subjects - and with almost unrelated ideas. The first part of the sentence deals with cervical dislocation. Whereas, the second part of the sentence deals with exsanguination - and not exsanguination in relation to cervical dislocation as far as I can tell! Additionally, the three references that are listed in association with this sentence all have titles indicating the research referenced has to do with decapitation of rats. Possibly the researchers compared several techniques of euthanasia but again, I am sure what the committee was attempting to present in this one sentence paragraph. (And the statement below about exsanguination after decapitation is not clear. Exsanguination is basically "cutting the throat" of an animal - so it would not make sense to exsanguinate an animal that had been decapitated. See: http://www.vetmed.ufl.edu/lacs/HumaneEuthanasia/Ex.htm Hope that this is helpful. W.R. Stricklin -----Original Message----- From: h.m. [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 1:47 PM To: 'Ray Stricklin' Subject: RE: Animal Welfare and humane euthanasia: Priorities Thank you for this feedback. Two points: " And I do not believe that there is any documentation that animals remain "aware" for 15 seconds after cervical dislocation. There may be recorded brain activity after cervical dislocation - but this not necessarily the same as being "aware."" Please see the link to the American Veterinary Medical Association Panel on Euthanasia (2000)PDF file/report: http://www.uchsc.edu/animal/documents%20pdf/sops%20for%20forms%20and%20r eports/euthanasia.pdf As you will note, it says that, "Data suggest that electrical activity in the brain persists for 13 seconds following cervical dislocation, and unlike decapitation, rapid exsanguination does not contribute to loss of consciousness." Exsanguination you know is used to ensure death after stunning, death after decaptiation, or death after breaking the neck. This AMVA wording suggests that even using this technique after cervical dislocation will not contribute to "loss of consciousness". So I am assuming "awareness". From: IN%"wrstrick@umd.edu" "Ray Stricklin" 18-NOV-2003 17:04:38.24 To: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "h.m." CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Animal Welfare and humane euthanasia: Priorities -----Original Message----- From: h.m. [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net] Sent: Tuesday, November 18, 2003 4:14 PM To: 'Ray Stricklin' Subject: RE: Animal Welfare and humane euthanasia: Priorities ... There's a long way to go with humane rabbit euthanasia. If the UN does make rabbits the next chicken meat of this century as planned, then it is a bad state of affairs because rabbits are being exported everywhere as backyard meat projects. -------------------------------------- Yes, there is an increase in rabbit production in some parts of the world (but to my knowledge considerably less so in the USA). And in fact I visited such a facility this past summer in a region of southern Europe where there has been recent, rapid expansion in rabbit production. I would say that the system that I saw was a highly industrialized production system - what some have called a factory farm. And I do not agree that, in rabbit production, research on slaughter should be emphasized at the expense of topics such as space requirements. The rabbits that I saw this summer were spending the vast majority of their lives in conditions that I consider totally unacceptable because of the extreme crowding. I would argue that there is no doubt as to the impact on the welfare of these animals from such treatment - and haggling over whether or not a rabbit with a dislocated spinal cord at the base of the brain is conscious or not during its last 13 seconds, thus, to me becomes much less important. Additionally, I endorse the idea of "backyard" systems such as small scale rabbit production in Developing World countries . Such systems are far more justifiable in my opinion than the implementation of intensive confinement poultry, swine, etc. production systems which are increasing in number in parts of world, including China, at a rate far greater than the increase of backyard rabbit production. I endorse the position of the UN - and a number of other groups - in their attempts to make persons in developing countries more self-sufficient and independent from the influence of multi-national, corporate agriculture. I am not saying that slaughter techniques are not important and do not need research attention. I am saying that it is not the only, and in my opinion not even the most important, topic important relative to rabbit production as it becoming practiced in some developed countries. W.R. Stricklin From: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" 18-NOV-2003 18:06:56.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: list protocol Dear Ray and all It is my firm intention to join ISAE in the near future - however there seems to be an assumption being made that should, perhaps, be subjected to a little more scrutiny - this being that restricting list subscription to ISAE members only would guarantee 'correct' behavior - in both an attitudinal and qualitative sense. Given that a number of, let us say, 'inappropriate', postings, in terms of either content, emotive or insulting language, unbridled arrogance or an unnecessarily adversarial approach, have originated from list subscribers who are sufficiently qualified and would be quite able to join ISAE is this actually the case? So, what happens if, once such a change had been made, an ISAE member makes inappropriate postings as a result of which there is a continued deterioration? Censure - removal - a disciplinary committee to ensure some degree of consistent natural justice? It might be thought that all subscribers should have some formal training in both ethics and the philosophy of science - if for no other reason than to ensure a basis exists for the common understanding of key concepts - and while this might result in, what some might deem to be, an essential improvement in quality, it would surely be very difficult to police. Perhaps a further alternative might be to explore the possibilities of establishing a written protocol for postings, which becomes a contracted obligation on all list members as an accepted facet of subscription? I would be quite happy to abide by such a protocol - and I am sure many others would also. This is broadly speaking the method in use on my own list, and although there is moderation I can only think of two instances over the past three years on which I have refused a posting - neither one of which was the result of personal insult or attack. A while ago it seemed to me that the ae list had started to follow a particularly adversarial model in which postings became more and more 'robust' (to the point of rudeness) - as if intellectual 'elbow room' was being staked out - and, speaking only for myself, I failed to resist the temptation to join in the jostle - which I regret. In the spirit of reconciliation I unreservedly apologise for any fuel I may have added to the fire and suggest that no Rubicon has been crossed such that care and mutual respect will not suffice and that radical surgery is required. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz From: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 19-NOV-2003 06:15:11.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Animal Welfare and humane euthanasia: Priorities For those interested in the appropriateness of methods of euthanasia, you may wish to read the ISAE ethical guidelines which contains an appendix on the subject. The part of the appendix relating to cervical dislocation is pasted below, and the references can be found at the URL http://www.sh.plym.ac.uk/isae/Contents/Ethics.htm Regards to all Decapitation and cervical dislocation: There is evidence that decapitation and cervical dislocation may not render an animal immediately unconscious. In rats, normal brain electrical activity indicative of consciousness can persist for 30s after decapitation, and visual responses can be evoked from hens for 30s after decapitation (Gregory and Wotton, 1986) (see also Anon (2000) and Holson (1992)). Reptilian brain metabolism can function at low respiration and heart rates, and Warwick (1986) cites evidence that the heads of snakes will respond to approach for up to 59 mins after decapitation. Cervical dislocation must achieve severance of both the spinal cord from the brain (to prevent neural transmission) and all the major blood vessels in the neck (to prevent blood supply to the brain). Even when these conditions are met, cervical dislocation raises concerns about animal welfare; visual evoked responses can be obtained from hens for up to 4 minutes after dislocation, depending on the method (stretching the neck causes loss of the response more quickly than crushing, allegedly due to concussion of the brain) (Gregory and Wotton, 1990). It is therefore preferable that if an animal is to be killed by decapitation or cervical dislocation, it should first be rendered unconscious. ===== ....................................................................................................... Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists (Why spoil a good story with the facts?) ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk From: IN%"Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk" "Moira Harris" 19-NOV-2003 07:39:34.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE Dear Heather and all, I'm curious: what are the safety concerns associated with A-E contributors identifying themselves (as I have below) with their names and professional affiliations? Thanks, - Moira Harris --On 18 November 2003 12:43 -0700 "h.m." wrote: > As I have said off list, if the list were closed or not publically > archived I would be willing to post name, city, etc. but not on a > public list publically archived. I am sorry. It is not recommended on > other lists for safety. > Heather ------------------------------------- Dr. Moira Harris Dept. of Clinical Veterinary Science, University of Bristol Moira.Harris@bristol.ac.uk Dept. of Biological Sciences, University of Warwick Moira.Harris@warwick.ac.uk From: IN%"j.reid@vet.gla.ac.uk" "Jackie Reid" 19-NOV-2003 09:38:00.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: introduction & new position This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_vRMkD213pfWzXIbDb6cnxw) Content-type: text/plain Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dear List Members As part of the Glasgow University Pain & Welfare Group working at the University of Glasgow Veterinary School, I would like to bring your attention to an exciting job opportunity, the details of which are as follows. If you know of a colleague who might be interested, then perhaps you would draw his/her attention to this advertisement. Many thanks Jacky Reid Department of Veterinary Clinical Studies University of Glasgow Veterinary School BVA Animal Welfare Foundation Lecturer in Animal Welfare We have an exciting new post in the Department of Veterinary Clinical Studies which has been established by the BVA Animal Welfare Foundation to support the development of an integrated approach to teaching Animal Welfare within the veterinary curriculum nationally. Similar lectureships have been established in the Universities of Liverpool and Bristol and the successful applicant will work in conjunction with these lecturers on curriculum planning and delivery. The person appointed to the 'Glasgow' post will become part of the Glasgow University Pain and Welfare Group and work within this multidisciplinary team, which derives from several departments within the University. Leaders of the Group are Andrea Nolan, Professor of Veterinary Pharmacology, currently serving as Dean of the Veterinary Faculty, Julie Fitzpatrick, Professor of Farm Animal Medicine in the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine and Head of the Division of FAMP, Marian Scott, Professor of Statistics in the Faculty of Information and Mathematical Sciences and Jacky Reid, Professor of Veterinary Anaesthesia in the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine. The Group is dedicated to the education of people working with animals in the recognition and management of pain and poor welfare in animals, and to the improvement of animal welfare with applied research in target species. The successful applicant must be committed to the advancement of all aspects of animal welfare, and ideally will have a relevant postgraduate qualification. An interest in welfare and quality of life measurement will be particularly welcomed. In addition to undertaking both didactic and small group clinical teaching duties to undergraduate veterinary students, the appointee will develop externally funded research programmes with existing faculty research groups as well as with other AWF funded lecturers in animal welfare. Informal enquiries are encouraged and should be directed to Professor Jacky Reid on ++44 141 330 5805, e-mail J.Reid@vet.gla.ac.uk Jacky Reid Professor of Veterinary Anaesthesia Deputy Dean of the Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Director of Student Affairs University of Glasgow Veterinary School Bearsden Rd Bearsden Glasgow G61 1QH Tel: +44 141 330 5700, Ext 5805 Fax: +44 141 942 7215 From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 19-NOV-2003 15:06:57.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: U.S. House of Representatives passes legislation restricting trade in exotic big cats I just got this from a humane society list I am on and thought AE members would also find it interesting. Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES PASSES LEGISLATION RESTRICTING TRADE IN EXOTIC BIG CATS Legislation May Soon Go to President Bush WASHINGTON (November 19, 2003) - The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), the nation's largest animal protection organization, is applauding the U.S. House of Representatives for passing legislation that cracks down on the burgeoning pet trade in exotic big cats. The House today passed the legislation by a vote of 419 - 0. An estimated 10,000 to 15,000 exotic cats, such as lions and tigers, are kept as pets in the United States. Representatives Buck McKeon (R-CA) and George Miller (D-CA) introduced the legislation, H.R. 1006, the Captive Wildlife Safety Act. Representatives Richard Pombo (R-CA) and Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD) moved the legislation through the Resources Committee, allowing for today's floor action on the legislation. The Senate passed a slightly modified version of the legislation about two weeks ago. Once differences between the bills passed by the House and Senate are reconciled, the legislation will then go to President Bush for his signature. The bill bars interstate and foreign commerce of dangerous exotic animals, including lions, tigers, leopards, cheetahs, jaguars and cougars, for the pet trade. It provides exemptions for legitimate wildlife sanctuaries and for those people licensed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture to exhibit these animals. There are 19 states than ban keeping big cats as pets. "In just five years, an estimated one hundred adults and children have been injured or killed by large cats. These are dangerous and unpredictable wild animals and there is simply no justifiable reason for them to be kept as pets," stated Wayne Pacelle, a senior vice president for The Humane Society of the United States. "The U.S. Congress has taken the responsible step in passing this legislation, and we hope a final bill is sent to the President before the year ends. These animals should roam in the wild and not be confined in backyard cages or sequestered in basements or closets." Senators James Jeffords (I-VT) and John Ensign (R-NV) introduced companion legislation in January as S. 269, the Captive Wildlife Safety Act. Senator James Inhofe (R-OK), the chairman of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, moved the legislation through the Committee and the Senate approved its version on October 31. The legislation is backed by dozens of groups, including The HSUS, Tippi Hedren's Roar Foundation, The Fund for Animals, the American Zoo and Aquarium Association, the Captive Wild Animal Protection Coalition, and the American Veterinary Medical Association. From: IN%"apewelfare@yahoo.co.in" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Dr.=20G.=20Agoramoorthy?=" 20-NOV-2003 03:15:06.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog show Hi! I would like to know who or which company conducts the best dog shows in the world that attracts children. Thanks.Moorthy ________________________________________________________________________ Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner online. Go to http://yahoo.shaadi.com From: IN%"syue@uoguelph.ca" 20-NOV-2003 08:32:21.14 To: IN%"apewelfare@yahoo.co.in" "Dr. G. Agoramoorthy" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dog show One of the best dog shows I know of is the Westminster dog show that takes place in the U.S. every year around February and is held in New York. This is one of the most prestigious conformation dog shows I know of. As far as children are concerned, they'd probably be more interested in watching tricks. There is one traveling group and I believe they are called the Super Dogs. They perform at agricultural shows and sometimes just general pet shows. I'm pretty sure they are Canadian, but don't hold me to that. I hope this helps. Stephanie Yue, Ph.D. Candidate Department of Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario, Canada N1G 2W1 Quoting "Dr. G. Agoramoorthy" : > Hi! I would like to know who or which company conducts > the best dog shows in the world that attracts > children. Thanks.Moorthy > > ________________________________________________________________________ > Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your partner online. > Go to http://yahoo.shaadi.com > From: IN%"coape@nildram.co.uk" "Robin Walker" 20-NOV-2003 12:19:36.09 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "'Janice Willard'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: U.S. House of Representatives passes legislation restricting trade in exotic big cats Thank you Janice. In November 1970 a man and his eleven-year-old son were watching a firework display when an escaped lion sprang into the circle of firelight, seized the boy by head and dragged him into the darkness. The horror at this fatality in suburban Surrey (England) was probably instrumental in getting our Wild Animals Act onto the=20 Statute Rolls. Robin Walker B.Vet.Med. MRCVS Lynthorpe Behaviour Centre 78 Bromyard Road WORCESTER UK WR2 5DA -----Original Message----- From: Janice Willard [mailto:jwillard@turbonet.com]=20 Sent: 19 November 2003 21:06 To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: U.S. House of Representatives passes legislation restricting trade in exotic big cats =A0 I just got this from a humane society list I am on and thought AE members would also find it interesting. =A0 Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS =A0 =A0 U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES PASSES LEGISLATION RESTRICTING=20 TRADE IN EXOTIC BIG CATS Legislation May Soon Go to President Bush WASHINGTON (November 19, 2003)=A0 - The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), the nation's largest animal protection organization, is applauding the U.S. House of Representatives for passing legislation that cracks down on the burgeoning pet trade in exotic big cats. The House today passed the legislation by a vote of 419 - 0.=A0 An estimated 10,000 to 15,000 = exotic cats, such as lions and tigers, are kept as pets in the United States. Representatives Buck McKeon (R-CA) and George Miller (D-CA) introduced the legislation, H.R. 1006, the Captive Wildlife Safety Act.=A0 Representatives Richard Pombo (R-CA) and Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD) moved the legislation through the Resources Committee, allowing for today's floor action on the legislation.=A0 The Senate passed a slightly modified version of the legislation about two weeks ago.=A0 Once differences between the bills passed by the House and Senate are reconciled, the legislation will then go to President Bush for his signature. The bill bars interstate and foreign commerce of dangerous exotic animals, including lions, tigers, leopards, cheetahs, jaguars and cougars, for the pet trade.=A0 It provides exemptions for legitimate wildlife sanctuaries and for those people licensed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture to exhibit these animals.=A0 There are 19 states than ban keeping big cats as pets. "In just five years, an estimated one hundred adults and children have been injured or killed by large cats.=A0 These are dangerous and unpredictable wild animals and there is simply no justifiable reason for them to be kept as pets," stated Wayne Pacelle, a senior vice president for The Humane Society of the United States. "The U.S. Congress has taken the responsible step in passing this legislation, and we hope a final bill is sent to the President before the year ends.=A0 These animals should roam in the wild and not be confined in backyard cages or sequestered in basements or closets." Senators James Jeffords (I-VT) and John Ensign (R-NV) introduced companion legislation in January as S. 269, the Captive Wildlife Safety Act.=20 Senator James Inhofe (R-OK), the chairman of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, moved the legislation through the Committee and the Senate approved its version on October 31. The legislation is backed by dozens of groups, including The HSUS, Tippi Hedren's Roar Foundation, The Fund for Animals, the American Zoo and Aquarium Association, the Captive Wild Animal Protection Coalition, and the American Veterinary Medical Association. From: IN%"finklerh@post.tau.ac.il" "Hilit Finkler" 20-NOV-2003 13:42:59.11 To: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: U.S. House of Representatives passes legislation restricting trade in exotic big cats It's about time!!! [Hilit Finkler] Good luck -----Original Message----- From: Janice Willard [mailto:jwillard@turbonet.com] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 11:06 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: U.S. House of Representatives passes legislation restricting trade in exotic big cats I just got this from a humane society list I am on and thought AE members would also find it interesting. Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS U.S. HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES PASSES LEGISLATION RESTRICTING TRADE IN EXOTIC BIG CATS Legislation May Soon Go to President Bush WASHINGTON (November 19, 2003) - The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS), the nation's largest animal protection organization, is applauding the U.S. House of Representatives for passing legislation that cracks down on the burgeoning pet trade in exotic big cats. The House today passed the legislation by a vote of 419 - 0. An estimated 10,000 to 15,000 exotic cats, such as lions and tigers, are kept as pets in the United States. Representatives Buck McKeon (R-CA) and George Miller (D-CA) introduced the legislation, H.R. 1006, the Captive Wildlife Safety Act. Representatives Richard Pombo (R-CA) and Wayne Gilchrest (R-MD) moved the legislation through the Resources Committee, allowing for today's floor action on the legislation. The Senate passed a slightly modified version of the legislation about two weeks ago. Once differences between the bills passed by the House and Senate are reconciled, the legislation will then go to President Bush for his signature. The bill bars interstate and foreign commerce of dangerous exotic animals, including lions, tigers, leopards, cheetahs, jaguars and cougars, for the pet trade. It provides exemptions for legitimate wildlife sanctuaries and for those people licensed by the U.S. Department of Agriculture to exhibit these animals. There are 19 states than ban keeping big cats as pets. "In just five years, an estimated one hundred adults and children have been injured or killed by large cats. These are dangerous and unpredictable wild animals and there is simply no justifiable reason for them to be kept as pets," stated Wayne Pacelle, a senior vice president for The Humane Society of the United States. "The U.S. Congress has taken the responsible step in passing this legislation, and we hope a final bill is sent to the President before the year ends. These animals should roam in the wild and not be confined in backyard cages or sequestered in basements or closets." Senators James Jeffords (I-VT) and John Ensign (R-NV) introduced companion legislation in January as S. 269, the Captive Wildlife Safety Act. Senator James Inhofe (R-OK), the chairman of the Senate Environment and Public Works Committee, moved the legislation through the Committee and the Senate approved its version on October 31. The legislation is backed by dozens of groups, including The HSUS, Tippi Hedren's Roar Foundation, The Fund for Animals, the American Zoo and Aquarium Association, the Captive Wild Animal Protection Coalition, and the American Veterinary Medical Association. From: IN%"akhan@263.net" 22-NOV-2003 21:19:07.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Questions about nighttime feeding Dear list members, As I know, nighttime feeding is provided for livestock in some farms, and the animals do consume their late dinner. My questions are, Is the nighttime feeding necessary? Don't the animal sleep all night? Will the nighttime feeding affect their natural rhythm and their health? Please feel free to forward the message to anybody you think appropriate. And any information is welcome. Thanks for your help. Sincerely yours, XIAO Jianqiang ================================= XIAO Jianqiang Institute of Hydrobiology The Chinese Academy of Sciences Wuhan, Hubei, 430072 China xiaojq@ihb.ac.cn ================================= From: IN%"m.dierendonck@planet.nl" 23-NOV-2003 12:54:28.65 To: IN%"F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk" "'Francis Burton'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Infanticide by stallions Better late than never (it was a bit out of sight): Cameron, E.Z., Linklater, W.L., Stafford, K.J. & Minot, E.O. (2003). Social Grouping and Maternal Behaviour in Feral Horses (Equus Caballus): the Influence of Males on Maternal Protectiveness. Behavioral Ecology and Sociobiology 53 (2): 92-101. Pluhacek, J. & Bartos, L. (2000). Male Infanticide in Captive Plains Zebra, Equus Burchelli. Animal Behaviour 59: 689-694. Ryder, O.A. & Massena, R. (1988). A Case of Male Infanticide in Equus-Przewalskii. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 21 (1-2): 187-190. =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Machteld van Dierendonck Equid ethologist m.c.vandierendonck@vet.uu.nl=A0 m.dierendonck@planet.nl -----Original Message----- From: Francis Burton [mailto:F.L.Burton@udcf.gla.ac.uk]=20 Sent: woensdag 1 oktober 2003 15:19 To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: RE: Infanticide by stallions At 10:21 01/10/03 +1200, wheep@igrin.co.nz (Andy Beck) wrote: >I don't have a copy of the paper Nancy refers to (but if anyone knows where >I might get one I would be most appreciative!), but I seem to recall that >the work was discredited? I don't know about that. However, I now have a copy of Berger's Nature paper and could make a scan of it available for a limited time on the web to anyone here who is interested, if someone can assure me that by so doing I will not be in breach of copyright. Francis =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D Deze e-mail is door E-mail VirusScanner van Planet Internet gecontroleerd op virussen. Op http://www.planet.nl/evs staat een verwijzing naar de actuele lijst waar op wordt gecontroleerd. From: IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 23-NOV-2003 16:02:03.75 To: IN%"akhan@263.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Questions about nighttime feeding Dear Xiao Jianqiang The extent of night-time feeding is very much dependent on the species and the normal feeding supply/regime for the animals. Eg my observations with pigs with ad lib food showed that they would get up and have a short meal at about midnight to 2 am. I rarely observed (individually) caged chickens feeding at night, although there was feed available. In environments that are not climatically controlled I think night-time feeding is partially related to the thermal environment - cattle here in the tropics, on pasture and in feedlots, do a lot of their feeding at night. They rest and ruminate during the hottest part of the day, then start showing intense feeding late afternoon/early evening. So, the answers to your questions are not simple; some animals may sleep all night, some animals may need to feed at night and for some animals night-time feeding is probably beneficial for their health and welfare. Carol Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences Department of Primary Industries Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390 Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: XIAO Jianqiang [mailto:akhan@263.net] Sent: Sunday, 23 November 2003 1:19 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Questions about nighttime feeding Dear list members, As I know, nighttime feeding is provided for livestock in some farms, and the animals do consume their late dinner. My questions are, Is the nighttime feeding necessary? Don't the animal sleep all night? Will the nighttime feeding affect their natural rhythm and their health? Please feel free to forward the message to anybody you think appropriate. And any information is welcome. Thanks for your help. Sincerely yours, XIAO Jianqiang ================================= XIAO Jianqiang Institute of Hydrobiology The Chinese Academy of Sciences Wuhan, Hubei, 430072 China xiaojq@ihb.ac.cn ================================= ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 23-NOV-2003 16:17:42.94 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: FW: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst There has not been one comment on the topic of dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food. I submit that this lack of response is political correctness at its worst. Subscribers are all too PC to even comment on this one! Where is everyone who is sooo concerned with ethics and animal welfare???? Dugongs are ancient herbivorous aquatic and endangered mammals. Australian natives drag them from the water and beat them to death for food. Is this practice OK with everyone out there? I suppose it must be, or is everyone too taken up with stamping out far greater evils such as tail docking and the like, to even notice? Australian natives also kill and eat giant sea turtles. Housing, food and money are available; killing dugongs and sea turtles is not done out of need. It is done purely out of tradition. Under law they are entitled to do so.=20 Jackie Perkins I was speaking generally Andy, not to you directly. What do you (ie everyone) think of dugongs (a protected species) being routinely clubbed to death for traditional food? It is perfectly legal here in Australia. Clearly, humaneness is not a consideration of this law, just a high degree of tolerance for traditional culture.=20 Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz]=20 Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: research?? The word used was studies - nor did I "post any references for rubbish "research"!" (in fact I did not post any references at all) But being well aware of your entirely unpleasant and sharp-tongued lack of manners will leave you to rave on alone. I would think the comment referring to Aborigines is well out of place - perhaps it might be appropriate to an all Australian audience but even then it sounds like sour grapes - I am used to rednecks making the same kinds of comment in NZ with regard to Maori - do we have a little problem with racism perhaps - as well as a penchant for crying politics - or is this just general undirected venom at a wicked world? What is your problem? Spare me any further vitriol; placing you back in the auto delete bin ;) Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz =20 -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au]=20 Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2003 1:15 p.m. To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: research?? What "sufficient research"? Do you mean the "research" citing lots of unpublished data? OR the patently rhetorical research? One thing is certain; there has been no good quality or comprehensive research done on the issue of tail docking and more certainly none done by sociologists or the humanities. Those against tail docking are too confident of their position to need anything like research nor to involve humanities experts. Ps Please do not post any references for rubbish "research"!=20 Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz]=20 Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: dew claws Mary I am surprised you think I do not understand =96 was there anything so complex that that would be likely? Dew claws is a separate issue =96 and I think there is no ethical = question as they are liable to tearing =96 which results in pain - therefore = removing them in a controlled manner under anaesthesia, even though it may cause some pain post-op, to prevent the much worse pain of a tear is quite ethical. This is quite different to tail docking. Even so, it would clearly be better to breed so that this becomes unnecessary. Sufficient studies have been carried out on tail docking =96 as you must surely now be aware. Therefore there is no quick judgement going on here. My response was based entirely on awareness of these findings =96 not on emotion. My dogs assist me with all farm work =96 removing feral cattle and, on occasion, pigs (fence and pasture damage), rounding up and removing neighbours sheep (except when with lambs at foot as the dogs tend to be a little hard and inexperienced for such gentle work), moving groups of horses and protecting our plants and fruit trees from possums - quite varied work, and a great deal of it out of line of sight or direct control. Please =96 no further FLAMES =96 the practice is somewhat out of place = on this list and, in my case, merely makes me bin the posting as juvenile. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz =A0 -----Original Message----- From: mary doran [mailto:mary@fusiondesignuk.com]=20 Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2003 5:36 p.m. To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: dew claws You misunderstand me Andy. I did not at any point say that ANY practise should be continued. Perhaps a less emotional response with clearer reading of my exact words would have allowed you to see that I relayed factual accounts of my own experience ,and that my main point was this.. =A0 <"We should not be TOO quick to judge practices of animal husbandry if we have not researched properly the original reasons why these practices developed centuries ago, or if we ourselves have not experienced problems encountered through these procedures not being carried out at birth."> =A0 So allow me to explain=A0 further what I am implying here if you did not understand what i meant. I beleive that before taking such a step as to ban a particular practise=A0 scientific research should=A0be carried out to see IF any of these practises are justified. By 'not researched properly'=A0 what I mean is controlled long term studies following both groups of collies that are' de-clawed' a birth and also those remaining intact. The fact that=A0I relayed my own personal experience to be shortly followed by you with your OWN anecdotal experience verifys my point that without studies and facts it will be impossible to assert what is best for the breed in a non-emotional way. =A0 I am very interested to know where you work you collies with sheep. Do you take part at trial standard? Or farm work only? IF farm work, what size flocks and type=A0of land do you work. I attend alot of trials here in the UK with border collies, and I am also studying to be an animal behaviour therapist based on an ethological approach combined with operant conditoining methods.=A0 =A0I have started a survey among the regular competitors of the sport = and although it is not yet completed I have to say=A0that so far the trend among most ISDS registered working border collie breeders appears to be that removal of front dew claws is the preferred approach. The difference between you an I, it appears is that you carried out a practise of docking without questioning its validity and then stopped whereas I chose NOT to have invasive removal at birth only to discover there was a possibility of a real problem developing as a result. I do not see why you are talking about emotional knee jerks as you seem to be having on while accusing me of doing so. =A0 SO I suggested critical analysis BEFORE banning a practise as this seems a bit backwards to me. Naturally, if the study showed that removal of front dew claws was uneccessary and unrelated to following 'accidental' ripping of dew claws then I would be very happy that it was discontinued. I am wanting the best for the breed. Not sure exactly what your point is. =A0 Let me know what exactly=A0it is that you disagree with. =A0 Sincerely =A0 Mary Doran =A0 He who does not know and 'asks' is a fool for five minutes. He who does not know and does NOT ask....is a fool forever. From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 23-NOV-2003 16:18:08.00 To: IN%"post@gry.no" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?'Gry_L=F8berg'?=", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi Gry, I have done the following research recently on the subject. It is referenced. Regards, Jackie Perkins Veterinary Behaviour Consulting, Australia The Developmental Periods of the Horse Described 1. Neonatal period lasts about 2 hours during which time the foal learns to stand, walk, actually find the udder, lye down, and follow the mare. 2. Sensory development period lasts for the next 2 weeks during which the foal stays close to the mare learning behaviour strategies from her and from its environment. Too little sensory exposure at this time can result in a diminished sensory capacity. Within the first day the foal masters locomotion, solitary play, grazing, grooming, urination, flehmen, and communication. 3. The socialization phase lasts from around 4 weeks to 4 months during which time the foal learns social play, mutual grooming, and appeasement of adult horses by mouth clapping.=20 4. Independence is learned from 4 months of age onwards. The foal acquires adult patterns of behaviour, spacial relationships, social interactions and maintenance behaviours.=20 5. Weaning occurs at around 7 months, initiated by the mother some 15 weeks prior to her next foal=92s birth. 6. Juvenile period sees a reduction in play behaviour. 2 and 3 year olds are more active than adults. 97% of colts and 81% of fillies leave their natal band. Colts join other males to form bachelor bands, they spend most of their time play fighting. At 5 years of age he is able to take over or gather his own herd.=20 Feh C. 2000 Relationships and Communication in Socially Natural Horse Herds University of Pennsylvania School of Veterinary Science Houpt k 1998 Domestic Animal Behaviour for Veterinarians and Animal Scientists Iowas State University Press=20 Ladewig J. 2001 Ontogeny: Preparing the Foal for its Adult Life The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University Copenhagen -----Original Message----- From: Gry L=F8berg [mailto:post@gry.no]=20 Sent: Wednesday, November 12, 2003 6:14 PM To: apbc4_um@ftech.net; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Horses - sensitive period for habituation and socialisation Hi all We are in Norway making lots of new laws and regulations regarding animals. We have a new dog-law, a new animal welfare law, new regulations ragarding keeping dogs outside in pens, and about housing and management of horses. I am together with some partners kommenting on the regulations regrding horses, and need some help with information and references. One of the suggestion is saying: "Horses should have enough social experience with people early in life to prevent them from beeing frightend of people and their environment" We would like to be more specific here, I know they have an imprintingperiod, but do horses have a sensitive period for socialisation and habituation? I have not found anything about it in the litterature so far. If you do have any information about this I would be pleased if you could let med know. Gry L=F8berg From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 23-NOV-2003 16:18:49.53 To: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "'h.m.'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: formal ethics cont. I live in Australia, so would not be much help. But the tyranny of political correctness is everywhere! Jackie PErkins -----Original Message----- From: h.m. [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, November 17, 2003 12:03 PM To: 'Geiger' Subject: RE: formal ethics cont. And your interpretation of following the Nazi party's message sounds just like the political correctness of our day in that nobody is encouraged to question, just follow. -- yes exactly. So many people voting for the Republican party seem to like their world all mapped out and clear for them. But, if you want to break away from the political correctness, go to meetup.com or deanforamerica.com (org?) and work for people who aren't following political correctness. We are working to preserve the Bill of Rights and fight the effects of having 3000 of our 6500 legislators belonging to www.alec.org ( wwww.alecwatch.org) -- read their latest legislative push, "the animal rights and ecology terrorism bill" off their top page. They tried to pass it twice already this year - TX and NY. It is the most frightening piece of legislation ever. The task force that drafted it originally was ALEC's EENRA task force (per tompaine.com) directed by G.Gordon Liddy's daughter, Sandy Liddy Bourne. She is most powerful in D.C. Heather p.s. I admire the australians for not allowing GMO grains into their country yet. -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Sunday, November 16, 2003 4:40 PM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: formal ethics cont. Those choices are being made by others too often. And your interpretation of following the Nazi party's message sounds just like the political correctness of our day in that nobody is encouraged to question, just follow. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: h.m. [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 7:35 AM To: 'Geiger'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: formal ethics cont. Jackie, No, Nazi reasoning was that you did not have a conscience - you simply followed the party's message. You did not have to think for yourself. At least that is my interpretation. CeAnn and Dr. Stricklin were (pardon me for speaking for you both) I believe saying that each person should think for themselves about what they feel is right. Scientists are educated so that they place a very high value on thinking for themselves. This discussion could fill many books -- and that view is not the total answer -- but I don't think that your interpretation is fair, Jackie. I get the impression that you feel strongly about some animal issues and want other people to agree with you. Be careful not to foist your attitude in turn. People were not meant to be all the same. Allow people to make their own choices. May I ask what your training/background is in? Your responses sound very much like someone I know trained in analytic philosophy. Heather -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 3:26 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: Formal ethics as opposed to applied ethics; arithmetic does NOT make one a mathematician. Apparently Ceann and Ray think that their personal version of "the right thing" should be foisted upon everyone else!!!! Isn't that what the Nazi's reasoning was? Jackie Perkins From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 23-NOV-2003 16:19:41.35 To: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "'John Burchard'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: rituals are not just about appearances I have no problem with the practice of tail docking being likened to a religious practice. Why isn't the practice of tail docking given some religious respect, like circumcision was? Circumcision was not banned, just more hoops to jump through. If, after due research, a practice such as tail docking is deemed harmful (there are presently lots of hollow assertions...back them up!!), then perhaps it should be phased out over hundreds of years like circumcision will be. This is the enlightened way to breed out a meme. Breeders of docked breeds have repeatedly stated that if there was any real evidence that tail docking was harmful, they would not do it. They have been minoritised and bullied, and they know it! Sooner or later people who are treated this way respond violently, demanding a fair trial. No-one can force change on others. To all involved in welfare legislating, involve the stakeholders, take it slowly, and promote unbiased research. To improve welfare you must enlist those caring for the animals. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: John Burchard [mailto:saluqi@ix.netcom.com] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 10:23 PM To: Applied ethology list Subject: Re: rituals are not just about appearances Jackie Perkins wrote: > To claim that tail docking is performed solely for the purpose of giving > humans pleasure, is to completely miss the point about it being a > ritual. Why do humans perform tattooing, circumcision, piercing etc etc. > Rituals are enculturated after hundreds of years. That desexing is > performed merely for human convenience is more damning in my view. In some cases, perhaps most cases, the original reason for docking tails had little to do with ritual, and had to do with human pleasure only in the rather indirect sense that it enabled the dog to do its work (which humans valued) at less risk of bloody damage to itself. I think it could be argued quite seriously that a working dog is often, if not usually, happier and more fulfilled than one which has nothing to do. Animals do not enjoy nor benefit from boredom, any more than humans do. Boredom and inactivity also have a significant impact on health. In many (but not all) modern breeds, the functional aspect of tail docking has become vestigial, and the docking has therefore taken on the aspect of a ritual, often sanctified by a sacred document known as a breed standard. Ignoring the breed standard then becomes a form of heresy . Actually that is not funny, as anyone can discover by standing up at a meeting of any breed club and publicly criticizing the standard ... John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 23-NOV-2003 16:20:18.62 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE I agree Ray. Any form of moderation would equal censorship, and promote the views of the moderator. Most of us find opposing views "offensive"; we should not be shielded from such "offense" or we will hamstring learning. Censorship should apply only where obsenity or libel are contained in a message. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Ray Stricklin [mailto:wrstrick@umd.edu] Sent: Wednesday, November 19, 2003 4:50 AM To: Laika the astronaut; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: The applied-ethology list and the ISAE To my mind, setting up a list with a moderator is anticipating that people will use a bulletin board inappropriately. This should not be necessary. The original intention of this A-E list was to encourage curteous, informed discussion amongst members of a professional society, i.e. ISAE. If members had sent unprofessional, ranting or otherwise inappropriate messages, I'm sure they would have 'suffered' by a loss of perceived professional status. In effect, the list was self-moderated based on self-respect for ones professional reputation. Setting up a moderator has many problems - self-moderation should be the way to go. -------------------------- I am not sure that you understand the views of many (possibly/probably the majority) of ISAE members. While I have no actual numbers, the emails that came into the ISAEnet-1 in response to Moira's message in the majority of cases stated that the list should be limited to ISAE members only. It is not just the improper behavior that is of concern to these persons, but also they do not wish to "dig through" a large amount of verbiage to find the information that they consider of interest, importance, etc. (I do not necessarily agree in total with this view, but never-the-less, it seems to be the majority position.) I am suggesting that the list can benefit from having other persons continue being able to post to group. However, as indicated above, I do not believe that ISAE members will, in the majority, support a discussion format that permits unrestricted posting by the public at large. (And I could be wrong in my supposition about the position of the majority of the membership - but obviously, I do not think so.) And if the majority oppose open postings, then some system of screening through a moderator was a compromise position that I suggested would allow continued contributions by non-ISAE members. A goal of a number of ISAE members is to get the ISAE membership once again involved in an e-discussion format. This may not be possible, but it is goal that I support. Having a large amount of material posted by non-ISAE members that is not considered "current" by ISAE members is not likely to encourage their participation or gain their support. I suppose that starting with a bulletin board that is unrestricted could first be attempted - before trying a system with a moderator if that later proves necessary. However, one problem with this could be that if it is tried and does not meet with success, then the ISAE members, who rejoined but then dropped out, would not likely support any type of discussion group other than one completely restricted to ISAE members in the future. W.R. Stricklin From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 23-NOV-2003 16:20:18.84 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Neuter-spay I am not completely against desexing. Every last thing has pros and cons. I am strongly FOR rational and ethical comparisons. Ethics discussions are usually based on rational comparisons between accepted practices, and whatever practice is under consideration. Such is a reasonable method to test weigh and expose our own prejudices; we all have prejudices and we all need to be kept honest. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: h.m. [mailto:oryctolagus@earthlink.net] Sent: Monday, November 10, 2003 7:04 AM To: 'Geiger'; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Neuter-spay Dear, Jackie, Tell that to a friend's rabbit who bled out to death recently at 3 yrs of age because she had not been spayed. That pet died. Spayed, she might have lived with her bond-mate for another nine years in happiness. Another did live, because the vet spayed her and removed bleeding cysts. Tell that to my dad who had prostate cancer; or my mom who had breast cancer. How about my neighbor who had a hysterectomy? You place an extreme high value on 'desexing' vs quality of life, in my humble opinion. If I have a dog and it has puppies, what happens to those puppies if I don't have the space and monies to care for them? When I was born there were 3 Billion people on planet earth and Ohio was filled with 300 acre farms. Now there are 6 Billion people on earth and all the farms I knew are subdivided into 1.5 - 5 acre housing plots at 20,000 - 30,000$ a piece -- just for the empty land. A 900 acre farm went for over a million dollars recently. We place a very high value in this world on the right to procreate. Some predictions are that in 47 years there will be 12 Billion people on earth; and the U.N. FAO feels (they ran an expensive 1 year world-wide marketing survey) that we should factory farm rabbits to feed them all. This is not to say that neuter/spay for animals doesn't change many things; but, you have to realize that half the population of human-women are probably in menopause (age 40 or above) or have a complete hysterectomy and your argument would consider them desexed. I challenge you to find one and ask them if they are... Heather -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Sunday, November 09, 2003 3:23 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: rituals are not just about appearances [text cut]That desexing is performed merely for human convenience is more damning in my view. Jackie Perkins From: IN%"Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 23-NOV-2003 16:25:38.77 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst It doesn't surprise me at all that there have been no comments to this; anybody who disagrees with you is likely to receive a verbal lashing. I guess the average responsible subscriber to this list has just decided to keep their views to themselves on this one to avoid further tirades. Carol Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences Department of Primary Industries Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390 Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Monday, 24 November 2003 8:17 AM To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: FW: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst There has not been one comment on the topic of dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food. I submit that this lack of response is political correctness at its worst. Subscribers are all too PC to even comment on this one! Where is everyone who is sooo concerned with ethics and animal welfare???? Dugongs are ancient herbivorous aquatic and endangered mammals. Australian natives drag them from the water and beat them to death for food. Is this practice OK with everyone out there? I suppose it must be, or is everyone too taken up with stamping out far greater evils such as tail docking and the like, to even notice? Australian natives also kill and eat giant sea turtles. Housing, food and money are available; killing dugongs and sea turtles is not done out of need. It is done purely out of tradition. Under law they are entitled to do so. Jackie Perkins I was speaking generally Andy, not to you directly. What do you (ie everyone) think of dugongs (a protected species) being routinely clubbed to death for traditional food? It is perfectly legal here in Australia. Clearly, humaneness is not a consideration of this law, just a high degree of tolerance for traditional culture. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: research?? The word used was studies - nor did I "post any references for rubbish "research"!" (in fact I did not post any references at all) But being well aware of your entirely unpleasant and sharp-tongued lack of manners will leave you to rave on alone. I would think the comment referring to Aborigines is well out of place - perhaps it might be appropriate to an all Australian audience but even then it sounds like sour grapes - I am used to rednecks making the same kinds of comment in NZ with regard to Maori - do we have a little problem with racism perhaps - as well as a penchant for crying politics - or is this just general undirected venom at a wicked world? What is your problem? Spare me any further vitriol; placing you back in the auto delete bin ;) Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2003 1:15 p.m. To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: research?? What "sufficient research"? Do you mean the "research" citing lots of unpublished data? OR the patently rhetorical research? One thing is certain; there has been no good quality or comprehensive research done on the issue of tail docking and more certainly none done by sociologists or the humanities. Those against tail docking are too confident of their position to need anything like research nor to involve humanities experts. Ps Please do not post any references for rubbish "research"! Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: dew claws Mary I am surprised you think I do not understand - was there anything so complex that that would be likely? Dew claws is a separate issue - and I think there is no ethical question as they are liable to tearing - which results in pain - therefore removing them in a controlled manner under anaesthesia, even though it may cause some pain post-op, to prevent the much worse pain of a tear is quite ethical. This is quite different to tail docking. Even so, it would clearly be better to breed so that this becomes unnecessary. Sufficient studies have been carried out on tail docking - as you must surely now be aware. Therefore there is no quick judgement going on here. My response was based entirely on awareness of these findings - not on emotion. My dogs assist me with all farm work - removing feral cattle and, on occasion, pigs (fence and pasture damage), rounding up and removing neighbours sheep (except when with lambs at foot as the dogs tend to be a little hard and inexperienced for such gentle work), moving groups of horses and protecting our plants and fruit trees from possums - quite varied work, and a great deal of it out of line of sight or direct control. Please - no further FLAMES - the practice is somewhat out of place on this list and, in my case, merely makes me bin the posting as juvenile. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: mary doran [mailto:mary@fusiondesignuk.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2003 5:36 p.m. To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: dew claws You misunderstand me Andy. I did not at any point say that ANY practise should be continued. Perhaps a less emotional response with clearer reading of my exact words would have allowed you to see that I relayed factual accounts of my own experience ,and that my main point was this.. <"We should not be TOO quick to judge practices of animal husbandry if we have not researched properly the original reasons why these practices developed centuries ago, or if we ourselves have not experienced problems encountered through these procedures not being carried out at birth."> So allow me to explain further what I am implying here if you did not understand what i meant. I beleive that before taking such a step as to ban a particular practise scientific research should be carried out to see IF any of these practises are justified. By 'not researched properly' what I mean is controlled long term studies following both groups of collies that are' de-clawed' a birth and also those remaining intact. The fact that I relayed my own personal experience to be shortly followed by you with your OWN anecdotal experience verifys my point that without studies and facts it will be impossible to assert what is best for the breed in a non-emotional way. I am very interested to know where you work you collies with sheep. Do you take part at trial standard? Or farm work only? IF farm work, what size flocks and type of land do you work. I attend alot of trials here in the UK with border collies, and I am also studying to be an animal behaviour therapist based on an ethological approach combined with operant conditoining methods. I have started a survey among the regular competitors of the sport and although it is not yet completed I have to say that so far the trend among most ISDS registered working border collie breeders appears to be that removal of front dew claws is the preferred approach. The difference between you an I, it appears is that you carried out a practise of docking without questioning its validity and then stopped whereas I chose NOT to have invasive removal at birth only to discover there was a possibility of a real problem developing as a result. I do not see why you are talking about emotional knee jerks as you seem to be having on while accusing me of doing so. SO I suggested critical analysis BEFORE banning a practise as this seems a bit backwards to me. Naturally, if the study showed that removal of front dew claws was uneccessary and unrelated to following 'accidental' ripping of dew claws then I would be very happy that it was discontinued. I am wanting the best for the breed. Not sure exactly what your point is. Let me know what exactly it is that you disagree with. Sincerely Mary Doran He who does not know and 'asks' is a fool for five minutes. He who does not know and does NOT ask....is a fool forever. ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 23-NOV-2003 16:35:32.38 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst The facts speak for themselves. Did I put forward any view with the initial posting? -----Original Message----- From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 8:25 AM To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst It doesn't surprise me at all that there have been no comments to this; anybody who disagrees with you is likely to receive a verbal lashing. I guess the average responsible subscriber to this list has just decided to keep their views to themselves on this one to avoid further tirades. Carol Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences Department of Primary Industries Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390 Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Monday, 24 November 2003 8:17 AM To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: FW: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst There has not been one comment on the topic of dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food. I submit that this lack of response is political correctness at its worst. Subscribers are all too PC to even comment on this one! Where is everyone who is sooo concerned with ethics and animal welfare???? Dugongs are ancient herbivorous aquatic and endangered mammals. Australian natives drag them from the water and beat them to death for food. Is this practice OK with everyone out there? I suppose it must be, or is everyone too taken up with stamping out far greater evils such as tail docking and the like, to even notice? Australian natives also kill and eat giant sea turtles. Housing, food and money are available; killing dugongs and sea turtles is not done out of need. It is done purely out of tradition. Under law they are entitled to do so. Jackie Perkins I was speaking generally Andy, not to you directly. What do you (ie everyone) think of dugongs (a protected species) being routinely clubbed to death for traditional food? It is perfectly legal here in Australia. Clearly, humaneness is not a consideration of this law, just a high degree of tolerance for traditional culture. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: research?? The word used was studies - nor did I "post any references for rubbish "research"!" (in fact I did not post any references at all) But being well aware of your entirely unpleasant and sharp-tongued lack of manners will leave you to rave on alone. I would think the comment referring to Aborigines is well out of place - perhaps it might be appropriate to an all Australian audience but even then it sounds like sour grapes - I am used to rednecks making the same kinds of comment in NZ with regard to Maori - do we have a little problem with racism perhaps - as well as a penchant for crying politics - or is this just general undirected venom at a wicked world? What is your problem? Spare me any further vitriol; placing you back in the auto delete bin ;) Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2003 1:15 p.m. To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: research?? What "sufficient research"? Do you mean the "research" citing lots of unpublished data? OR the patently rhetorical research? One thing is certain; there has been no good quality or comprehensive research done on the issue of tail docking and more certainly none done by sociologists or the humanities. Those against tail docking are too confident of their position to need anything like research nor to involve humanities experts. Ps Please do not post any references for rubbish "research"! Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: dew claws Mary I am surprised you think I do not understand - was there anything so complex that that would be likely? Dew claws is a separate issue - and I think there is no ethical question as they are liable to tearing - which results in pain - therefore removing them in a controlled manner under anaesthesia, even though it may cause some pain post-op, to prevent the much worse pain of a tear is quite ethical. This is quite different to tail docking. Even so, it would clearly be better to breed so that this becomes unnecessary. Sufficient studies have been carried out on tail docking - as you must surely now be aware. Therefore there is no quick judgement going on here. My response was based entirely on awareness of these findings - not on emotion. My dogs assist me with all farm work - removing feral cattle and, on occasion, pigs (fence and pasture damage), rounding up and removing neighbours sheep (except when with lambs at foot as the dogs tend to be a little hard and inexperienced for such gentle work), moving groups of horses and protecting our plants and fruit trees from possums - quite varied work, and a great deal of it out of line of sight or direct control. Please - no further FLAMES - the practice is somewhat out of place on this list and, in my case, merely makes me bin the posting as juvenile. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: mary doran [mailto:mary@fusiondesignuk.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2003 5:36 p.m. To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: dew claws You misunderstand me Andy. I did not at any point say that ANY practise should be continued. Perhaps a less emotional response with clearer reading of my exact words would have allowed you to see that I relayed factual accounts of my own experience ,and that my main point was this.. <"We should not be TOO quick to judge practices of animal husbandry if we have not researched properly the original reasons why these practices developed centuries ago, or if we ourselves have not experienced problems encountered through these procedures not being carried out at birth."> So allow me to explain further what I am implying here if you did not understand what i meant. I beleive that before taking such a step as to ban a particular practise scientific research should be carried out to see IF any of these practises are justified. By 'not researched properly' what I mean is controlled long term studies following both groups of collies that are' de-clawed' a birth and also those remaining intact. The fact that I relayed my own personal experience to be shortly followed by you with your OWN anecdotal experience verifys my point that without studies and facts it will be impossible to assert what is best for the breed in a non-emotional way. I am very interested to know where you work you collies with sheep. Do you take part at trial standard? Or farm work only? IF farm work, what size flocks and type of land do you work. I attend alot of trials here in the UK with border collies, and I am also studying to be an animal behaviour therapist based on an ethological approach combined with operant conditoining methods. I have started a survey among the regular competitors of the sport and although it is not yet completed I have to say that so far the trend among most ISDS registered working border collie breeders appears to be that removal of front dew claws is the preferred approach. The difference between you an I, it appears is that you carried out a practise of docking without questioning its validity and then stopped whereas I chose NOT to have invasive removal at birth only to discover there was a possibility of a real problem developing as a result. I do not see why you are talking about emotional knee jerks as you seem to be having on while accusing me of doing so. SO I suggested critical analysis BEFORE banning a practise as this seems a bit backwards to me. Naturally, if the study showed that removal of front dew claws was uneccessary and unrelated to following 'accidental' ripping of dew claws then I would be very happy that it was discontinued. I am wanting the best for the breed. Not sure exactly what your point is. Let me know what exactly it is that you disagree with. Sincerely Mary Doran He who does not know and 'asks' is a fool for five minutes. He who does not know and does NOT ask....is a fool forever. ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"carlos@playoflife.com" "Dr Carlos A Raimundo" 23-NOV-2003 18:03:14.44 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Lorenz Book DOes somebody know the name of the book in English by K Lorenz ORIGINAL: "DER ABBAU DES MENSCHLICHEN" In Spanish "DECADENCIA DE LO HUMANO". Thank you\Carlos Dr Carlos A Raimundo Active Learning Pty Limited carlos@playoflife.com - www.playoflife.com From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 23-NOV-2003 18:07:37.06 To: IN%"carlos@playoflife.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Lorenz Book Look on amazon.com for books by that author and you can probably figure it out. From: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 24-NOV-2003 04:47:04.96 To: IN%"akhan@263.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Questions about nighttime feeding --- XIAO Jianqiang wrote: > Dear list members, > > As I know, nighttime feeding is provided for > livestock in some farms, and the animals do consume > their late dinner. My questions are, > > Is the nighttime feeding necessary? > Don't the animal sleep all night? > Will the nighttime feeding affect their natural > rhythm and their health? > > Please feel free to forward the message to anybody > you think appropriate. And any information is > welcome. Thanks for your help. > > Sincerely yours, > XIAO Jianqiang > > ================================= > XIAO Jianqiang > Institute of Hydrobiology > The Chinese Academy of Sciences > Wuhan, Hubei, 430072 > China > xiaojq@ihb.ac.cn > ================================= > > Dear All, It has been shown that commercial turkeys eat 50-60% of their daily food intake during the dark phase when on a 8:16 Light:Dark regimen. When the feeders were removed during the dark phase, the turkeys compensated by eating more during the light phase. It seems unlikely that wild turkeys feed at night, so the nocturnal feeding by the commercial birds might be due to the intense artificial selection for production characteristics. See, Sherwin, C.M., Lewis, P.D. and Perry, G.C. (1999). The effects of environmental enrichment and intermittent lighting on the behaviour and welfare of male domestic turkeys. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 62: 319-333 Respectfully yours ===== ....................................................................................................... Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists (Why spoil a good story with the facts?) ________________________________________________________________________ Want to chat instantly with your online friends? Get the FREE Yahoo! Messenger http://mail.messenger.yahoo.co.uk From: IN%"finklerh@post.tau.ac.il" "Hilit Finkler" 24-NOV-2003 10:34:04.22 To: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst what are dugongs? -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 12:17 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: FW: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst There has not been one comment on the topic of dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food. I submit that this lack of response is political correctness at its worst. Subscribers are all too PC to even comment on this one! Where is everyone who is sooo concerned with ethics and animal welfare???? Dugongs are ancient herbivorous aquatic and endangered mammals. Australian natives drag them from the water and beat them to death for food. Is this practice OK with everyone out there? I suppose it must be, or is everyone too taken up with stamping out far greater evils such as tail docking and the like, to even notice? Australian natives also kill and eat giant sea turtles. Housing, food and money are available; killing dugongs and sea turtles is not done out of need. It is done purely out of tradition. Under law they are entitled to do so. Jackie Perkins I was speaking generally Andy, not to you directly. What do you (ie everyone) think of dugongs (a protected species) being routinely clubbed to death for traditional food? It is perfectly legal here in Australia. Clearly, humaneness is not a consideration of this law, just a high degree of tolerance for traditional culture. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: research?? The word used was studies - nor did I "post any references for rubbish "research"!" (in fact I did not post any references at all) But being well aware of your entirely unpleasant and sharp-tongued lack of manners will leave you to rave on alone. I would think the comment referring to Aborigines is well out of place - perhaps it might be appropriate to an all Australian audience but even then it sounds like sour grapes - I am used to rednecks making the same kinds of comment in NZ with regard to Maori - do we have a little problem with racism perhaps - as well as a penchant for crying politics - or is this just general undirected venom at a wicked world? What is your problem? Spare me any further vitriol; placing you back in the auto delete bin ;) Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2003 1:15 p.m. To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: research?? What "sufficient research"? Do you mean the "research" citing lots of unpublished data? OR the patently rhetorical research? One thing is certain; there has been no good quality or comprehensive research done on the issue of tail docking and more certainly none done by sociologists or the humanities. Those against tail docking are too confident of their position to need anything like research nor to involve humanities experts. Ps Please do not post any references for rubbish "research"! Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: dew claws Mary I am surprised you think I do not understand – was there anything so complex that that would be likely? Dew claws is a separate issue – and I think there is no ethical question as they are liable to tearing – which results in pain - therefore removing them in a controlled manner under anaesthesia, even though it may cause some pain post-op, to prevent the much worse pain of a tear is quite ethical. This is quite different to tail docking. Even so, it would clearly be better to breed so that this becomes unnecessary. Sufficient studies have been carried out on tail docking – as you must surely now be aware. Therefore there is no quick judgement going on here. My response was based entirely on awareness of these findings – not on emotion. My dogs assist me with all farm work – removing feral cattle and, on occasion, pigs (fence and pasture damage), rounding up and removing neighbours sheep (except when with lambs at foot as the dogs tend to be a little hard and inexperienced for such gentle work), moving groups of horses and protecting our plants and fruit trees from possums - quite varied work, and a great deal of it out of line of sight or direct control. Please – no further FLAMES – the practice is somewhat out of place on this list and, in my case, merely makes me bin the posting as juvenile. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz   -----Original Message----- From: mary doran [mailto:mary@fusiondesignuk.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2003 5:36 p.m. To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: dew claws You misunderstand me Andy. I did not at any point say that ANY practise should be continued. Perhaps a less emotional response with clearer reading of my exact words would have allowed you to see that I relayed factual accounts of my own experience ,and that my main point was this..   <"We should not be TOO quick to judge practices of animal husbandry if we have not researched properly the original reasons why these practices developed centuries ago, or if we ourselves have not experienced problems encountered through these procedures not being carried out at birth.">   So allow me to explain  further what I am implying here if you did not understand what i meant. I beleive that before taking such a step as to ban a particular practise  scientific research should be carried out to see IF any of these practises are justified. By 'not researched properly'  what I mean is controlled long term studies following both groups of collies that are' de-clawed' a birth and also those remaining intact. The fact that I relayed my own personal experience to be shortly followed by you with your OWN anecdotal experience verifys my point that without studies and facts it will be impossible to assert what is best for the breed in a non-emotional way.   I am very interested to know where you work you collies with sheep. Do you take part at trial standard? Or farm work only? IF farm work, what size flocks and type of land do you work. I attend alot of trials here in the UK with border collies, and I am also studying to be an animal behaviour therapist based on an ethological approach combined with operant conditoining methods.   I have started a survey among the regular competitors of the sport and although it is not yet completed I have to say that so far the trend among most ISDS registered working border collie breeders appears to be that removal of front dew claws is the preferred approach. The difference between you an I, it appears is that you carried out a practise of docking without questioning its validity and then stopped whereas I chose NOT to have invasive removal at birth only to discover there was a possibility of a real problem developing as a result. I do not see why you are talking about emotional knee jerks as you seem to be having on while accusing me of doing so.   SO I suggested critical analysis BEFORE banning a practise as this seems a bit backwards to me. Naturally, if the study showed that removal of front dew claws was uneccessary and unrelated to following 'accidental' ripping of dew claws then I would be very happy that it was discontinued. I am wanting the best for the breed. Not sure exactly what your point is.   Let me know what exactly it is that you disagree with.   Sincerely   Mary Doran   He who does not know and 'asks' is a fool for five minutes. He who does not know and does NOT ask....is a fool forever. From: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "Jo Angleberger" 24-NOV-2003 14:37:40.46 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst You wrote: It doesn't surprise me at all that there have been no comments to this; anybody who disagrees with you is likely to receive a verbal lashing. I guess the average responsible subscriber to this list has just decided to keep their views to themselves on this one to avoid further tirades. Carol Petherick =======There are only 4 things I am afraid of in this life--pain, loneliness, death and debt. Being PC and getting verbally lashed don't concern me. My own reason for not replying is that I agree with JP on the whole: without knowing, that is, the actual method used to kill dugongs, if the culture who does this has been taught to do anything else, after all, such adaptations don't always come easily after centuries of tradition. Are those natives restricted to a certain number of dugongs used as food? Do they use the skeleton or skin for anything such as tools and clothes, furniture? What is the name of this tribe/culture? With much more information, I may even disagree with JP. If a website was listed, I missed it. Think I'll see what I can find on my own... Jo -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Monday, 24 November 2003 8:17 AM To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: FW: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst There has not been one comment on the topic of dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food. I submit that this lack of response is political correctness at its worst. Subscribers are all too PC to even comment on this one! Where is everyone who is sooo concerned with ethics and animal welfare???? Dugongs are ancient herbivorous aquatic and endangered mammals. Australian natives drag them from the water and beat them to death for food. Is this practice OK with everyone out there? I suppose it must be, or is everyone too taken up with stamping out far greater evils such as tail docking and the like, to even notice? Australian natives also kill and eat giant sea turtles. Housing, food and money are available; killing dugongs and sea turtles is not done out of need. It is done purely out of tradition. Under law they are entitled to do so. Jackie Perkins _________________________________________________________________ Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 24-NOV-2003 15:09:13.84 To: IN%"carlos@playoflife.com" "Dr Carlos A Raimundo", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Lorenz Book The name of the book is "The Waning of Humaneness" CeAnn --- Dr Carlos A Raimundo wrote: > > DOes somebody know the name of the book in English > by K Lorenz > ORIGINAL: "DER ABBAU DES MENSCHLICHEN" In Spanish > "DECADENCIA DE LO > HUMANO". > Thank you\Carlos > > Dr Carlos A Raimundo > Active Learning Pty Limited > carlos@playoflife.com - www.playoflife.com > > > > > ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "Jo Angleberger" 24-NOV-2003 15:40:22.52 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: excerpted information re dugongs =====After getting information on apparently reliable websites, (BELOW) the question again for me is do we want to sacrifice yet another culture thousands of years old or risk the life of the dugong species. Happy mediums are difficult, but the only worthwhile goal IMO. I couldn't find out how Austrailian aborigines are *supposed* to hunt dugongs now, but no doubt the old methods are still used by those who don't care. Are the dugongs clubbed to death? Read nothing about that, only about harpooning with subsequent drowning. More info welcomed to my email address, thanks. What are people like us supposed to do about cultural practices in Australia? If I were an anthropologist, I might try to get assigned there a few years. But I'm an ordinary aging American with no direct sirenian experience. BUT, I AM a member of an applied ethology group---wouldn't it be great if we could act as a group and apply our collective minds to addressing this and other problems with letters, phone calls, interviews, lobbying? Jo From website http://www.hollyandjeremy.com/wildlife/esReports/report19.html-- governments will outlaw hunting of endangered species, but in this case, the hunting of dugongs are a part of Aboriginal traditions and rituals. The Australian government, not wanting to interfere with the Aboriginal culture, has not banned the hunting of this species, but has placed rules and regulations about how they can hunt them and where. Traditionally, dugongs were harpooned from canoes with a barbed harpoon attached to a rope and the dugong was held by its tail in the water until it drowned. Today, the Aborigines use more humane methods of capturing these mammals and are only allowed to hunt them in areas where the government has concluded that the population is in no danger of becoming endangered or extinct. Most of the following is from a governmental website, for much more info relevant to recent email, see http://www.gbrmpa.gov.au/corp_site/key_issues/conservation/threatened_species/threats.html Maximum longevity (most die at a younger age) ~70 years Pre-reproductive period (females) 6-17 years Pre-reproductive period (males) 4-16 years Gestation period 13-15 months Litter size 1 Lactation length 14-18 months Calving interval 3-7 years Max possible rate of increase (e.g. low natural mortality & no human-induced mortality) ~ 5% per year Estimated natural mortality rate ~ 5% per year Aerial surveys commissioned by the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority covered 39 000 square kilometres of the inshore waters of the southern World Heritage Area in 1986–87, 1992, 1994 and 1999. Between 1986 and 1994, they detected a significant population decline from an estimated 3480 (+/- 460) to an estimated 1680 (+/- 240) within eight years. Whilst the results of the 1999 surveys showed that numbers in the southern Area were back at 1986-87 levels (3993 ± 644), an analysis of dugongs caught unintentionally in shark nets at bathing beaches has confirmed that the dugong population in urban areas of the Queensland coast with nets is 3% of that in 1962. This was when the Queensland Shark Control Program commenced. Experts consider that the decline in dugong numbers is due to unsustainable mortality from human-related causes such as habitat loss or degradation, commercial mesh nets (fish nets), shark nets set for bather protection, indigenous hunting, boat strikes, defence activities and illegal take. The largest and most important remaining concentrations of dugongs in the southern part of the World Heritage Area are in the Shoalwater Bay, Cardwell/Hinchinbrook, and Cleveland to Upstart Bay areas. The dugong population in the southern Great Barrier Reef can only cope with a human-caused mortality of less than 1–2% each year. This means that if there are 200 dugongs in a bay, the population can only cope with the loss of two to four dugongs per year from all human causes (i.e. fishing, boat strikes and indigenous hunting). The activities associated with the hunting of dugong and turtle and preparing the meat has great significance and is an expression of the continuance of long cultural traditions. Great importance is placed on the social sharing of the meat with members of the family. Turtle shell is important to many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, as historically it was often fashioned into combs and fishhooks. In remote coastal areas, dugongs and green turtles have a higher social value because they provide food to communities where a nourishing diet is essential but often expensive to attain. In addition, these marine food resources strengthen Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture and demonstrate connection with traditional and sea country. The activity of hunting dugongs and turtles is restricted to Aboriginal peoples and Torres Strait Islanders. Zoning plans for the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park require that a permit be obtained for traditional hunting. Consistent with the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority's policy not to issue permits for hunting dugongs in the southern Great Barrier Reef, some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities have made voluntary formal and informal decisions not to hunt, as a contribution to addressing the decline in dugong numbers in the southern Great Barrier Reef. From website http://www.hollyandjeremy.com/wildlife/esReports/report19.html-- governments will outlaw hunting of endangered species, but in this case, the hunting of dugongs are a part of Aboriginal traditions and rituals. The Australian government, not wanting to interfere with the Aboriginal culture, has not banned the hunting of this species, but has placed rules and regulations about how they can hunt them and where. Traditionally, dugongs were harpooned from canoes with a barbed harpoon attached to a rope and the dugong was held by its tail in the water until it drowned. Today, the Aborigines use more humane methods of capturing these mammals and are only allowed to hunt them in areas where the government has concluded that the population is in no danger of becoming endangered or extinct. The activity of hunting dugongs and turtles is restricted to Aboriginal peoples and Torres Strait Islanders. Zoning plans for the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park require that a permit be obtained for traditional hunting. Consistent with the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority's policy not to issue permits for hunting dugongs in the southern Great Barrier Reef, some Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities have made voluntary formal and informal decisions not to hunt, as a contribution to addressing the decline in dugong numbers in the southern Great Barrier Reef. _________________________________________________________________ Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=features/es From: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "Jo Angleberger" 25-NOV-2003 10:46:41.72 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: FW: Information about the confinement of dogs and cats (fwd) Please commmunicate with Chris Heyde ____ Thank you so much for your help. What I'm looking for is information about the confinement of dogs and cats in research laboratories and the effect such confinement might have on the results of tests? Specifically what are some of the physical and psychological reactions dogs and cats exhibit due to confinement, and how these reactions could potentially skew laboratory tests they are involved in. I'm also looking for dog and cat behaviorists who would be willing to publicly comment about how confinement might change the outcome of laboratory studies. Any help you could provide would be greatly appreciated. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/EBYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: EthologicalEthics-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _________________________________________________________________ Is there a gadget-lover on your gift list? MSN Shopping has lined up some good bets! http://shopping.msn.com From: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "Jo Angleberger" 25-NOV-2003 10:47:31.64 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: FW: effect music has on animals (fwd) Please communicate directly with: Sally-Anne McDonnell Hi. I am a student at Broward Community College, and I have chosen to write an essay about the effect music has on animals, domesticated or wild. Interestingly, it is really quite difficult to locate much information on this matter and quite easy to find information on the positive effects certain music has on babies, students and sick humans. I would like to review studies that show the benefits music has on the emotional and physical health of animals, and if you have any information to lead me in the right direction or are able to pass on published reports, I will be very appreciative. Thanks. ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ---------------------~--> Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, Epson, Canon or Lexmark Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or more to the US & Canada. http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/EBYolB/TM ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: EthologicalEthics-unsubscribe@egroups.com Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ _________________________________________________________________ Say “goodbye” to busy signals and slow downloads with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From: IN%"wheep@igrin.co.nz" 25-NOV-2003 17:31:42.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst I tend to agree with Carol on this - but perhaps it might also be fair to say that traditional culture should never be held so inviolate that is beyond reproof - or change. One of the typical problems encountered when attempting to resuscitate cultures that have suffered from deliberate repression or attack under the colonial process is that the natural progress and growth is impacted.(for a great read on the Welsh example of this: 'When was Wales?') In order to begin a renaissance in any culture a snap-shot in time is grasped as a starting point - and often held on to far too long. But this is a surely a process in which we all have some responsibility to work together for rational change? Perhaps indigenous peoples also look at industrial societies' wanton destruction of native habitat and damage to the environment and wonder why it is that so much is allowed on one side of the equation but little on the other. It would seem both doubtful, and insulting, to suggest that any ethologist or other person on this list would be in favour of clubbing any animal to death - and the suggestion that tail docking would be considered to be more important is surely without reasonable foundation. Is it not possible to desist from the use of needlessly emotive phrases and rhetoric and promote the wellbeing of the list rather than alienating other subscribers? If not - dare I ask - why did you subscribe? Is it not quite obvious that this kind of behavior is doing damage - and that, should it continue, it will result in the destruction of a resource that many people have found both enjoyable and useful over a number of years? Will the list have to become silent in the hope that disruptive subscribers will become bored and unsubscribe? Please stop - consider others and be a gooddog! Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: Petherick, Carol [mailto:Carol.Petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au] Sent: Monday, 24 November 2003 11:25 a.m. To: Geiger; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: RE: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst It doesn't surprise me at all that there have been no comments to this; anybody who disagrees with you is likely to receive a verbal lashing. I guess the average responsible subscriber to this list has just decided to keep their views to themselves on this one to avoid further tirades. Carol Carol Petherick Principal Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Agency for Food and Fibre Sciences Department of Primary Industries Telephone +61 (0)7 4936 0331; Fax +61 (0)7 4936 0390 Email carol.petherick@dpi.qld.gov.au -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Monday, 24 November 2003 8:17 AM To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: FW: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst There has not been one comment on the topic of dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food. I submit that this lack of response is political correctness at its worst. Subscribers are all too PC to even comment on this one! Where is everyone who is sooo concerned with ethics and animal welfare???? Dugongs are ancient herbivorous aquatic and endangered mammals. Australian natives drag them from the water and beat them to death for food. Is this practice OK with everyone out there? I suppose it must be, or is everyone too taken up with stamping out far greater evils such as tail docking and the like, to even notice? Australian natives also kill and eat giant sea turtles. Housing, food and money are available; killing dugongs and sea turtles is not done out of need. It is done purely out of tradition. Under law they are entitled to do so. Jackie Perkins I was speaking generally Andy, not to you directly. What do you (ie everyone) think of dugongs (a protected species) being routinely clubbed to death for traditional food? It is perfectly legal here in Australia. Clearly, humaneness is not a consideration of this law, just a high degree of tolerance for traditional culture. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: research?? The word used was studies - nor did I "post any references for rubbish "research"!" (in fact I did not post any references at all) But being well aware of your entirely unpleasant and sharp-tongued lack of manners will leave you to rave on alone. I would think the comment referring to Aborigines is well out of place - perhaps it might be appropriate to an all Australian audience but even then it sounds like sour grapes - I am used to rednecks making the same kinds of comment in NZ with regard to Maori - do we have a little problem with racism perhaps - as well as a penchant for crying politics - or is this just general undirected venom at a wicked world? What is your problem? Spare me any further vitriol; placing you back in the auto delete bin ;) Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2003 1:15 p.m. To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: research?? What "sufficient research"? Do you mean the "research" citing lots of unpublished data? OR the patently rhetorical research? One thing is certain; there has been no good quality or comprehensive research done on the issue of tail docking and more certainly none done by sociologists or the humanities. Those against tail docking are too confident of their position to need anything like research nor to involve humanities experts. Ps Please do not post any references for rubbish "research"! Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: dew claws Mary I am surprised you think I do not understand - was there anything so complex that that would be likely? Dew claws is a separate issue - and I think there is no ethical question as they are liable to tearing - which results in pain - therefore removing them in a controlled manner under anaesthesia, even though it may cause some pain post-op, to prevent the much worse pain of a tear is quite ethical. This is quite different to tail docking. Even so, it would clearly be better to breed so that this becomes unnecessary. Sufficient studies have been carried out on tail docking - as you must surely now be aware. Therefore there is no quick judgement going on here. My response was based entirely on awareness of these findings - not on emotion. My dogs assist me with all farm work - removing feral cattle and, on occasion, pigs (fence and pasture damage), rounding up and removing neighbours sheep (except when with lambs at foot as the dogs tend to be a little hard and inexperienced for such gentle work), moving groups of horses and protecting our plants and fruit trees from possums - quite varied work, and a great deal of it out of line of sight or direct control. Please - no further FLAMES - the practice is somewhat out of place on this list and, in my case, merely makes me bin the posting as juvenile. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: mary doran [mailto:mary@fusiondesignuk.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2003 5:36 p.m. To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: dew claws You misunderstand me Andy. I did not at any point say that ANY practise should be continued. Perhaps a less emotional response with clearer reading of my exact words would have allowed you to see that I relayed factual accounts of my own experience ,and that my main point was this.. <"We should not be TOO quick to judge practices of animal husbandry if we have not researched properly the original reasons why these practices developed centuries ago, or if we ourselves have not experienced problems encountered through these procedures not being carried out at birth."> So allow me to explain further what I am implying here if you did not understand what i meant. I beleive that before taking such a step as to ban a particular practise scientific research should be carried out to see IF any of these practises are justified. By 'not researched properly' what I mean is controlled long term studies following both groups of collies that are' de-clawed' a birth and also those remaining intact. The fact that I relayed my own personal experience to be shortly followed by you with your OWN anecdotal experience verifys my point that without studies and facts it will be impossible to assert what is best for the breed in a non-emotional way. I am very interested to know where you work you collies with sheep. Do you take part at trial standard? Or farm work only? IF farm work, what size flocks and type of land do you work. I attend alot of trials here in the UK with border collies, and I am also studying to be an animal behaviour therapist based on an ethological approach combined with operant conditoining methods. I have started a survey among the regular competitors of the sport and although it is not yet completed I have to say that so far the trend among most ISDS registered working border collie breeders appears to be that removal of front dew claws is the preferred approach. The difference between you an I, it appears is that you carried out a practise of docking without questioning its validity and then stopped whereas I chose NOT to have invasive removal at birth only to discover there was a possibility of a real problem developing as a result. I do not see why you are talking about emotional knee jerks as you seem to be having on while accusing me of doing so. SO I suggested critical analysis BEFORE banning a practise as this seems a bit backwards to me. Naturally, if the study showed that removal of front dew claws was uneccessary and unrelated to following 'accidental' ripping of dew claws then I would be very happy that it was discontinued. I am wanting the best for the breed. Not sure exactly what your point is. Let me know what exactly it is that you disagree with. Sincerely Mary Doran He who does not know and 'asks' is a fool for five minutes. He who does not know and does NOT ask....is a fool forever. ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"jlanier@hsus.org" "Jennifer Lanier" 26-NOV-2003 11:50:19.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Evaliation of pain I am quite interested in reading what people have to say about Roberto's question on transportation and pain. Please respond to the list and not just Roberto, so I may "listen in." Jennifer Jennifer L. Lanier, Ph.D. Director of Scientific Programs Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture The Humane Society of the United States 2100 L. Street NW Washington, D.C. 20037 (301) 548 7787 (301) 258 3081 Fax jlanier@hsus.org -----Original Message----- From: Roberto Aguilar M. S. Silva [mailto:rsilva@cpap.embrapa.br] Sent: Wednesday, November 26, 2003 11:27 AM To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Evaliation of pain Dear Dr. I am interested in acute pain during truck transport to characterize the welfare conditions. Thank you a lot. Roberto From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 26-NOV-2003 12:22:21.72 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Evaliation of pain In a message dated 11/26/2003 9:54:11 AM Pacific Standard Time, jlanier@hsus.org writes: I am interested in acute pain during truck transport to characterize the welfare conditions. Thank you a lot. Roberto Do you specifically mean physical pain or general psychological suffering during transportation. It is unclear to me why one would expect physical pain during transportation. As to overall suffering that probably could be gauged in a qualitative way by how much resistance an experienced animal offered in entering the transport, keeping in mind the possibility of "learned helplessness". From: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "Jo Angleberger" 26-NOV-2003 15:27:12.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst Andy wrote: (SNIP) Perhaps indigenous peoples also look at industrial societies' wanton destruction of native habitat and damage to the environment and wonder why it is that so much is allowed on one side of the equation but little on the other. ======all well said Andy. And now I'm arguing with myself----the welfare of an endangered animal that an aboriginal tribe has direct contact with and use for should be the top priority, and the tribe should share in the regional responsibility of eliminating threats to the animal , VS why should they change their cultural ways when they had nothing to do with endangering the species? I think the latter view is emotionally reactive, whereas the former is reality whether or not we or the natives like it. According to some info I posted about the aboriginees earlier, it would seem that many native peoples are taking on some of the responsibility for a problem they did little over history to cause. Is it not possible to desist from the use of needlessly emotive phrases and rhetoric and promote the wellbeing of the list rather than alienating other subscribers? ===========Second that, and may I add that our energies would be much better spent conversing--politely--with the public rather than relieving our frustrations on each other simply because our education, experience and agendas are as individual as we are. That's not a thing to get angry about, but rather to share, appreciate, correct as necessary, etc. Jo _________________________________________________________________ Gift-shop online from the comfort of home at MSN Shopping! No crowds, free parking. http://shopping.msn.com From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 26-NOV-2003 17:49:26.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"peter@optimal.org" Subj: assymetry in P+, P-, R+, and R- In our AI designs we face a fundamental issue with reward and punishment and I was wondering if it is known how biological organisms handle this issue. When an animal does something for which it receives say a shock it receives a P+ (positive punishment) but if that shock ends, as it does in most experimental paradigms, the animal soon after experiences the relief from punishment P- (negative punishment). P+ can be used to extinguish a behavior while P- can be used to strengthen a behavior. If they were weighted equally in behavior modification they would cancel each other out. Same goes for R+ (positive reinforcement) and R- (negative reinforcement). An animal receiving a small food reward would initial receive an R+ as it consumed the reward, but the act of consumption would be coupled with an R- since consumption of the reward deprives the animal of the reward. Similar arguments can be made of paradigms in which R- or P- is primary event. The most straight forward answer I can think of is the weight of the primary and secondary reinforcers being different with the primary being weighted greater than the secondary. Has anybody described this mathematically? What are the dynamics of how this is done? Is it a function of time, of the primary event, secondary event, antecedent stimuli, rapidity of onset and decline of the reward or punishment, salience of stimuli associated with the reinforcers, etc... Anyone who can point me to a mathematical description of this phenomena will be a hero. Thanks From: IN%"gnullit@online.no" "gnullit" 26-NOV-2003 19:04:19.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology", IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" CC: IN%"peter@optimal.org" "peter" Subj: RE: assymetry in P+, P-, R+, and R- I could not help you with the mathematics, but it seems like you don't use the definitions correctly. You say: >When an animal does something for which it receives say a shock it receives a >P+ (positive punishment) but if that shock ends, as it does in most >experimental paradigms, the animal soon after experiences the relief from punishment P- >(negative punishment). What you describe as P- is really R-. R- is negative reinforcment - a removal of a punisher. You also say: An animal receiving a small food reward would initial >receive an R+ as it consumed the reward, but the act of consumption would be coupled >with an R- since consumption of the reward deprives the animal of the reward. Here you must swap your R- with the P-. The animal is deprived of the reward - which is negative punishment (but not if you are strict because then you would also have to observe a decrease in behaviour) Finally you say: >P+ can be used to extinguish a behavior while P- can be used to strengthen a >behavior. A punishment (P+ or P-) can never strenghten a behaviour - the nature of punishment is decreasing behavior. I would advise you to read the chapter i Charles Catania - Learning - where he is discussing how R+, P- and P+, R- interact. Good luck on your work! Randi Helene Tillung Ethologystudent From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 26-NOV-2003 19:15:29.22 To: IN%"gnullit@online.no", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"peter@optimal.org" Subj: RE: assymetry in P+, P-, R+, and R- Oops sorry, you are absolutely right. I let my definitions get switched due to the popular misuse of the term negative reinforcement as a means to extinguish misbehavior in a child. That is incorrect and is just a euphemism. So in Sum: Causing Pain is P+ (positive punishment) Removing Pain is R- (negative reinforcement) Giving Pleasure is R+ (positive reward) Removing Pleasure is P- (negative punishment) In a message dated 11/26/2003 5:04:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, gnullit@online.no writes: I could not help you with the mathematics, but it seems like you don't use the definitions correctly. You say: >When an animal does something for which it receives say a shock it receives a >P+ (positive punishment) but if that shock ends, as it does in most >experimental paradigms, the animal soon after experiences the relief from punishment P- >(negative punishment). What you describe as P- is really R-. R- is negative reinforcment - a removal of a punisher. You also say: An animal receiving a small food reward would initial >receive an R+ as it consumed the reward, but the act of consumption would be coupled >with an R- since consumption of the reward deprives the animal of the reward. Here you must swap your R- with the P-. The animal is deprived of the reward - which is negative punishment (but not if you are strict because then you would also have to observe a decrease in behaviour) Finally you say: >P+ can be used to extinguish a behavior while P- can be used to strengthen a >behavior. A punishment (P+ or P-) can never strenghten a behaviour - the nature of punishment is decreasing behavior. I would advise you to read the chapter i Charles Catania - Learning - where he is discussing how R+, P- and P+, R- interact. Good luck on your work! Randi Helene Tillung Ethologystudent From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "David Appleby" 27-NOV-2003 02:59:56.09 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"gnullit@online.no", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"peter@optimal.org" Subj: RE: assymetry in P+, P-, R+, and R- Re - r and - p these can occur in the absence of expected p or r respectively, not only their removal. Best wishes, David ---------------------------------------- Name: David Appleby MSc CCAB Address: The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper Street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB. England. Phone: +44(0)1386 750615 Fax: +44(0)1386 750743 E-mail: appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] Sent: 27 November 2003 01:15 To: gnullit@online.no; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Cc: peter@optimal.org Subject: Re: assymetry in P+, P-, R+, and R- Oops sorry, you are absolutely right. I let my definitions get switched due to the popular misuse of the term negative reinforcement as a means to extinguish misbehavior in a child. That is incorrect and is just a euphemism. So in Sum: Causing Pain is P+ (positive punishment) Removing Pain is R- (negative reinforcement) Giving Pleasure is R+ (positive reward) Removing Pleasure is P- (negative punishment) In a message dated 11/26/2003 5:04:33 PM Pacific Standard Time, gnullit@online.no writes: I could not help you with the mathematics, but it seems like you don't use the definitions correctly. You say: >When an animal does something for which it receives say a shock it receives a >P+ (positive punishment) but if that shock ends, as it does in most >experimental paradigms, the animal soon after experiences the relief from punishment P- >(negative punishment). What you describe as P- is really R-. R- is negative reinforcment - a removal of a punisher. You also say: An animal receiving a small food reward would initial >receive an R+ as it consumed the reward, but the act of consumption would be coupled >with an R- since consumption of the reward deprives the animal of the reward. Here you must swap your R- with the P-. The animal is deprived of the reward - which is negative punishment (but not if you are strict because then you would also have to observe a decrease in behaviour) Finally you say: >P+ can be used to extinguish a behavior while P- can be used to strengthen a >behavior. A punishment (P+ or P-) can never strenghten a behaviour - the nature of punishment is decreasing behavior. I would advise you to read the chapter i Charles Catania - Learning - where he is discussing how R+, P- and P+, R- interact. Good luck on your work! Randi Helene Tillung Ethologystudent From: IN%"M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl" "Matthijs Schilder" 27-NOV-2003 04:58:58.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: assymetry in P+, P-, R+, and R- At 18:49 26-11-03 -0500, you wrote: >In our AI designs we face a fundamental issue with reward and punishment >and I was wondering if it is known how biological organisms handle this issue. > >When an animal does something for which it receives say a shock it >receives a P+ (positive punishment) but if that shock ends, as it does in >most experimental paradigms, the animal soon after experiences the relief >from punishment P- (negative punishment). > >P+ can be used to extinguish a behavior while P- can be used to strengthen >a behavior. If they were weighted equally in behavior modification they >would cancel each other out. Same goes for R+ (positive reinforcement) and >R- (negative reinforcement). An animal receiving a small food reward would >initial receive an R+ as it consumed the reward, but the act of >consumption would be coupled with an R- since consumption of the reward >deprives the animal of the reward. Similar arguments can be made of >paradigms in which R- or P- is primary event. > >The most straight forward answer I can think of is the weight of the >primary and secondary reinforcers being different with the primary being >weighted greater than the secondary. Has anybody described this >mathematically? What are the dynamics of how this is done? Is it a >function of time, of the primary event, secondary event, antecedent >stimuli, rapidity of onset and decline of the reward or punishment, >salience of stimuli associated with the reinforcers, etc... > >Anyone who can point me to a mathematical description of this phenomena >will be a hero. > >Thanks > > Hi there, There is a lot of misunderstanding in this mail; what is denoted as negative punishment in fact is negative reinforcement. (negative reinforcement occurs when something nasty that occurs ends OR something nasty that is expected does not occur at all). Relief IS negative reinforcement!! Therefore, the whole reasoning (i.e. cancelling out of P- and P+) is not correct. Same goes for R+ and R-. R+ and R- can go together. Take the following example: a dog shows fear aggression to a visitor who backs down, while the owner of the dog calms the dog down by petting him. This dog experiences negative reinforcement, because the visitor backs down and positive reinforcement, because it is being petted by its owner. What most likely occurs, is that the organism calculates expected favourable and unfavourable outcomes of a certain action, and then decides what to do. Central reward systems in the brain play a major role in this proces. See for further info Spruijt et al, Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci.72 (2001):145-171 and references therein. regards, Matthijs Schilder , dr M.B.H. Schilder Utrecht University WCDM Yalelaan 17 3584CZ Utrecht, the Netherlands tel +31 30 2534784 fax +31 30 2539227 From: IN%"alanlaxton@blueyonder.co.uk" "Alan Laxton" 27-NOV-2003 06:05:19.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: tail chasing in dogs Hello, I am a degree student, currently researching problem behaviours in dogs, their diagnosis, prevention, treatment etc - particularly tail chasing in dogs. Does anyone have any ideas, good websites etc?? Thanks very much Alan Laxton From: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 27-NOV-2003 06:33:44.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: assymetry in P+, P-, R+, and R- --- Michalchik@aol.com wrote: > In our AI designs we face a fundamental issue with > reward and punishment and > I was wondering if it is known how biological > organisms handle this issue. > > When an animal does something for which it receives > say a shock it receives a > P+ (positive punishment) but if that shock ends, as > it does in most > experimental paradigms, the animal soon after > experiences the relief from punishment P- > (negative punishment). > > P+ can be used to extinguish a behavior while P- can > be used to strengthen a > behavior. If they were weighted equally in behavior > modification they would > cancel each other out. Same goes for R+ (positive > reinforcement) and R- > (negative reinforcement). An animal receiving a > small food reward would initial > receive an R+ as it consumed the reward, but the act > of consumption would be coupled > with an R- since consumption of the reward deprives > the animal of the reward. > Similar arguments can be made of paradigms in which > R- or P- is primary event. > > The most straight forward answer I can think of is > the weight of the primary > and secondary reinforcers being different with the > primary being weighted > greater than the secondary. Has anybody described > this mathematically? What are > the dynamics of how this is done? Is it a function > of time, of the primary > event, secondary event, antecedent stimuli, rapidity > of onset and decline of the > reward or punishment, salience of stimuli associated > with the reinforcers, > etc... > > Anyone who can point me to a mathematical > description of this phenomena will > be a hero. > > Thanks Dear Michalchick and others, For mathematical modelling of motivation you might care to look at McFarland, D.J. and Houston, A.I. (1981) 'Quantitative Ethology. The State Space Approach'. Pitman Advanced Publishing Program, Boston. McFarland, D.J. and Sibly, R.M. (1975). The Behavioural Final Common Path. Philos. Trans. R. Soc (Series B). 270: 265-293 ...and other more recent publications by these authors. Secondly, as others have indicated, there are differences in the useage of 'punishment' and 'reinforcement'. Over the years of this list, it has become apparent that there are three ways of using these terms according to whether the message is written by an applied ethologist, psychologist or animal trainer, and much bandwidth has been used in trying (unsuccessfully!) to convince other parties of the relative merits of these. Perhaps to prevent further outbreaks of frustrated attempts to convince others of our own interpretations, we should all routinely quote a source of the definition we are intending to use. Respectfully yours ===== ....................................................................................................... Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists (Why spoil a good story with the facts?) ________________________________________________________________________ Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to win Live At Knebworth DVDs http://www.yahoo.co.uk/robbiewilliams From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 27-NOV-2003 06:43:11.41 To: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "Laika the astronaut", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: punishment and reinforcement definitions >differences in the useage of 'punishment' and > 'reinforcement'. Over the years of this list, it has > become apparent that there are three ways of using > these terms according to whether the message is > written by an applied ethologist, psychologist or > animal trainer, and much bandwidth has been used in > trying (unsuccessfully!) to convince other parties of > the relative merits of these. Perhaps to prevent > further outbreaks of frustrated attempts to convince > others of our own interpretations, we should all > routinely quote a source of the definition we are > intending to use. I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be very interested in seeing these three sets of definitions summarized (without any attempts to argue that either one is superior!). I'm an applied ethologist who thought I have been careful to use the experimental psychology terminology properly when talking about positive and negative in terms of reinforcement, reward and punishment. Anna Olsson From: IN%"laika1957abc@yahoo.co.uk" "=?iso-8859-1?q?Laika=20the=20astronaut?=" 27-NOV-2003 07:54:11.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: punishment and reinforcement definitions > I'm sure I'm not the only one who would be very > interested in seeing these > three sets of definitions summarized (without any > attempts to argue that > either one is superior!). I'm an applied ethologist > who thought I have been > careful to use the experimental psychology > terminology properly when talking > about positive and negative in terms of > reinforcement, reward and > punishment. > > Anna Olsson Anna, There seem to be two major differences. First, the term 'punishment' is rarely used by applied ethologists. A search for 'punish' or 'punishment' in Applied Animal Behaviour Science reveals only 2 hits! One of these is a paper on dog training and the other a review of aversion by Jeff Rushen. The term 'punishment' seems to be used much more widely in the psychology literature. Second is the use of the phrases positive and negative reinforcement. Applied ethologists are usually taught about these in terms of the effect that they have on the probability that a behaviour will subsequently be expressed. A stimulus which increases the probability of a behaviour subsequently occuring is a positive reinforcement. A stimulus which decreases the probability of a behaviour being expressed is a negative reinforcement. Thus in some circumstances, pain can be either a positive or a negative reinforcement because it the outcome on the probability of behaviour being expressed that is the important point. Respectfully yours, ===== ....................................................................................................... Foundation of Applied and Knowledgeable Ethologists (Why spoil a good story with the facts?) ________________________________________________________________________ Download Yahoo! Messenger now for a chance to win Live At Knebworth DVDs http://www.yahoo.co.uk/robbiewilliams From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 27-NOV-2003 08:09:43.10 To: IN%"gnullit@online.no" "gnullit", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: assymetry in P+, P-, R+, and R- We have come full circle. Here we are talking about shocking and punishing animals again on this list. This is offensive to me. Although, I am not an ethologist, I have worked with one for seventeen years and I know that this is not how ethologists treat their animals that they work with. CeAnn --- gnullit wrote: .. > > You say: > >When an animal does something for which it receives > say a shock it receives a > >P+ (positive punishment) but if that shock ends, as > it does in most > >experimental paradigms, the animal soon after > experiences the relief from > punishment P- > >(negative punishment). > . ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 27-NOV-2003 09:53:28.30 To: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk", IN%"gnullit@online.no", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"peter@optimal.org" Subj: RE: assymetry in P+, P-, R+, and R- In a message dated 11/27/2003 1:00:03 AM Pacific Standard Time,=20 appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk writes: Re =E2=80=93 r and =E2=80=93 p these can occur in the absence of expected p=20= or r=20 respectively, not only their removal. Yes, but for subsequent training trials you need to have a P+ or R+ before=20 you can implement P- or R-, so you have a P+ or R+ following previous trial'= s P-=20 or R-. Though you can separate the trials by an arbitrary length of time, I=20 don't think this is what usually occurs in experiments or natural interactio= ns.=20 Can you really say apriori that P+ and R+ are not expected? From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 27-NOV-2003 10:09:01.91 To: IN%"M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: assymetry in P+, P-, R+, and R- In a message dated 11/27/2003 3:02:44 AM Pacific Standard Time, M.Schilder@las.vet.uu.nl writes: There is a lot of misunderstanding in this mail; what is denoted as negative punishment in fact is negative reinforcement. (negative reinforcement occurs when something nasty that occurs ends OR something nasty that is expected does not occur at all). Relief IS negative reinforcement!! Yes, I apologize for that. Therefore, the whole reasoning (i.e. cancelling out of P- and P+) is not correct. Yes, but the essential argument of cancelling applies it takes the form of the following pairs (P+,R-), (R+, P-), (P-, R+) and (R-, P+). That is for example, when punishment occurs there is always relief from the punishment that follows (unless the animal dies or some such). My essential question is how do animals avoid interpreting all punishers and rewards as neutral events since they are inevitably followed by the loss of the affective signal. Same goes for R+ and R-. R+ and R- can go together. Take the following example: a dog shows fear aggression to a visitor who backs down, while the owner of the dog calms the dog down by petting him. This dog experiences negative reinforcement, because the visitor backs down and positive reinforcement, because it is being petted by its owner. What most likely occurs, is that the organism calculates expected favourable and unfavourable outcomes of a certain action, and then decides what to do. Can you expand on this idea a little? Please use the simplified example of the dog above without the confounding issue of the owner trying to calm the dog down. Central reward systems in the brain play a major role in this proces. See for further info Spruijt et al, Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci.72 (2001):145-171 and references therein. I'll look for it. From: IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com" 27-NOV-2003 10:21:40.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Hi Alan There is the classic multi-author textbook that Michael W. Fox edited: "Abnormal Behaviour in Animals" Our of print now, but some rare second-hand copies are around, and I just happen to be offering one for sale just now: www.pighealth.com/offers/welfare.htm As far as tail-chasing is concerned, it can of course be a quite common, if maladaptive, response to anal irritation - be it prickly vegetation, migrating tapeworm segments, impacted anal glands or anal furunculosis. Michael Meredith www.sunflower-health.com ----- Original Message ----- From: Alan Laxton To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Thursday, November 27, 2003 12:05 PM Subject: tail chasing in dogs Hello, I am a degree student, currently researching problem behaviours in dogs, their diagnosis, prevention, treatment etc - particularly tail chasing in dogs. Does anyone have any ideas, good websites etc?? Thanks very much Alan Laxton From: IN%"isae2004@isae2004.org" "ISAE 2004 Anna Valros" 28-NOV-2003 05:21:16.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE 2004 2nd Announcement Dear List-members, I am happy to be able to present to you: the 2nd Announcement for the ISAE 2004 in Helsinki =20 The abstract submission is now open and the congress web-pages have been = updated - so please have a look (www.isae2004.org). Abstract deadline is = February 2nd, 2004. =20 Some information about the congress is also included at the end of this = message. Please spread the word! And please, don=B4t hesitate to contact = me if you have any questions regarding thye congress. =20 I look forward to receiving abstracts from you and to seeing you in = Helsinki next year!=20 =20 A Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all!=20 =20 Best wishes,=20 Anna Valros=20 =20 *********************************************************************** Anna Valros, PhD Congress secretary / ISAE 2004 (www.isae2004.org) Research Centre for Animal Welfare Faculty of Veterinary Medicine P.O. Box 57 00014 University of Helsinki Finland Phone: +358 9 19149508 Fax: +358 9 19149799 isae2004@isae2004.org ************************************************************************ 2nd Announcement for the ISAE 2004 in Helsinki =20 The 38th International Congress of the ISAE will be organised in = Helsinki August 3-7 2004. The congress will be held at the University of = Helsinki and accommodation will be in a hotel(s) within 10 minutes = walking distance from the university. The congress is organised in = co-operation between the Universities of Helsinki and Kuopio and MTT = Agrifood Research Finland. =20 As the ISAE-congresses have developed and quickly grown in size during = the years, the 2004 congress will be adapted to better fit the current = requirements. The major change will be prolonging the congress duration = by half-a-day. This way more oral presentations can be included and the = program can allow a bit more time for making and maintaining social and = professional contacts. We hope everybody will get even more out of the = congress with the new format! =20 There will also be some refinements of the scientific program, including = a better utilisation of poster presentations. Please, follow our = web-site (www.isae2004.org) to keep updated on the developments. Even = though the congress will go through a slight "face-lift" - do not fear, = we intend to do everything to make sure that the social atmosphere and = the scientific content will keep as high a standard as before! And the = best part of it all: you get one more party as the congress will end = with a Farewell-party on Saturday night. We urge all participants to = stay until Sunday and to grab this excellent chance to discuss with = colleagues and friends before leaving for home. =20 The main themes of the congress include Feeding and foraging behaviour, = Environmental enrichment and Behaviour, health and production. The = Wood-Gush memorial lecture will be held by Prof. Per Jensen from = Link=F6ping university (Sweden) on the topic: "Domestication - from = behaviour to genes and back again". In addition, several interactive = workshops on relevant and current topics are organised during one = evening.=20 =20 The social program includes a Welcome reception, the Congress banquet = and a Farewell party. We will also organise several interesting = excursions: participants will be able to choose between visiting a horse = research centre, a wild boar farm, a fur farm and a modern dairy farm = with an automatic milking system. The excursions will be continued by = visits to national nature parks or historically interesting places.=20 =20 Finland and Helsinki are well-worth a visit. Finland is an extremely = beautiful country with lots of untouched nature, but also high-class = cultural events and sites and a fascinating history. Helsinki is a = moderate-sized modern city by the sea. The city offers excellent and = diverse opportunities for sight-seeing: culture, nature, architecture = and amusements for everyone.=20 =20 Important dates: =20 2nd announcement and opening of abstract submission = November 2003 Opening of registration = January 2004 Deadline abstract submission = 2nd February 2004 Deadline abstract re-submission = 16th April 2004 Deadline registration with discount = 30th April 2004 =20 For more information, please visit our web-page www.isae2004.org or = contact the congress secretary Anna Valros (isae2004@isae2004.org).=20 =20 We hope to see you all in Helsinki next year, welcome!=20 =20 From: IN%"daisyberthoud@yahoo.com" "daisy berthoud" 28-NOV-2003 07:28:24.12 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: FW: effect music has on animals (fwd) dear all, i do not know if i am too late with that, but i have come across a study done by wells, graham and hepper on that subject. they tested the effects of five different music directions on behaviour of sheltered dogs. the reference is: Wells, DL, Graham, L & Hepper, PG (2002) The influence of auditory stimulation on the behaviour of dogs housed in a rescue shelter. Animal Welfare 11: 385-393 regards, daisy --- Jo Angleberger wrote: > > Please communicate directly with: Sally-Anne > McDonnell > > Hi. I am a student at Broward Community College, > and I have chosen to > write > an essay about the effect music has on animals, > domesticated or wild. > Interestingly, it is really quite difficult to > locate much information > on > this matter and quite easy to find information on > the positive effects > certain music has on babies, students and sick > humans. I would like to > review studies that show the benefits music has on > the emotional and > physical health of animals, and if you have any > information to lead me > in > the right direction or are able to pass on published > reports, I will be > very > appreciative. Thanks. > > ------------------------ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor > ---------------------~--> > Buy Ink Cartridges or Refill Kits for your HP, > Epson, Canon or Lexmark > Printer at MyInks.com. Free s/h on orders $50 or > more to the US & Canada. > http://www.c1tracking.com/l.asp?cid=5511 > http://us.click.yahoo.com/mOAaAA/3exGAA/qnsNAA/EBYolB/TM > ---------------------------------------------------------------------~-> > > To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: > EthologicalEthics-unsubscribe@egroups.com > > > > Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to > http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ > > _________________________________________________________________ > Say “goodbye” to busy signals and slow downloads > with a high-speed Internet > connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day > average. > https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by > service area.) > ===== "'The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated.'" Mahatma Ghandi __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Protect your identity with Yahoo! Mail AddressGuard http://antispam.yahoo.com/whatsnewfree From: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com" 28-NOV-2003 14:59:46.54 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Evaliation of pain In a message dated 11/26/2003 12:25:04 PM Central Standard Time, Michalchik@aol.com writes: It is unclear to me why one would expect physical pain during transportation. This is quite an incredible statement and I am thinking you must have misunderstood the question or issue presented. Particularly during transport to slaughter, animals are subject to unintended injuries that certainly result in pain being experienced by the animal. This can occur due to accidents, poor vehicle design, bad driving, length of transport, and, even with exemplary driving and road conditions, as a result of general condition of the animals -- e.g., spent laying hens that frequently are transported with painful bone fractures and are physically agitated or stepped on during transport, pregnant animals that deliver during transport, the list could go on. Adverse climatic conditions can subject animals to extremes of cold or wet or heat that cause pain. This is certainly well documented by those who monitor slaughter transport. Marlene Halverson Animal Welfare Institute Washington, DC From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 28-NOV-2003 15:45:34.69 To: IN%"Rexxie1@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Evaliation of pain --- Rexxie1@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/26/2003 12:25:04 PM Central > Standard Time, > Michalchik@aol.com writes: > It is unclear to me why one would expect physical > pain during transportation. > This is quite an incredible statement and I am > thinking you must have > misunderstood the question or issue presented. . Marlene, About six years ago, I passed a semi on the interstate. It was hauling live turkeys. The turkeys were packed into wooden, slatted boxes, which were stacked one a top the other. The turkeys in the crates had been fighting and had lost most of their feathers and there was blood everywhere. I have not eaten turkey since. I would also suggest that people read Hope Rydens book, "America's Last Wild Horses" and hear about the suffering the horses were put through during transportation. CeAnn ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"oryctolagus@earthlink.net" "h.m." 28-NOV-2003 15:58:33.70 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "'Cecilia Lambert'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Evaliation of pain Not to mention what rabbits hauled days across country go through, in stacked crates and other jury-rigged transport; no food, no water except when the crates are washed down with a hose. -heather -----Original Message----- From: Cecilia Lambert [mailto:ceannicrc@yahoo.com] Sent: Friday, November 28, 2003 2:45 PM To: Rexxie1@aol.com; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Evaliation of pain --- Rexxie1@aol.com wrote: > In a message dated 11/26/2003 12:25:04 PM Central > Standard Time, > Michalchik@aol.com writes: > It is unclear to me why one would expect physical > pain during transportation. > This is quite an incredible statement and I am > thinking you must have > misunderstood the question or issue presented. . Marlene, About six years ago, I passed a semi on the interstate. It was hauling live turkeys. The turkeys were packed into wooden, slatted boxes, which were stacked one a top the other. The turkeys in the crates had been fighting and had lost most of their feathers and there was blood everywhere. I have not eaten turkey since. I would also suggest that people read Hope Rydens book, "America's Last Wild Horses" and hear about the suffering the horses were put through during transportation. CeAnn ===== CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.WolfPark.org/ICRC __________________________________ Do you Yahoo!? Free Pop-Up Blocker - Get it now http://companion.yahoo.com/ From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 29-NOV-2003 02:28:17.55 To: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "'Jo Angleberger'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: excerpted information re dugongs My information comes from a couple who live and work in aboriginal communities. They are eye witnesses to everyday practices. They claim the dugongs are dragged inshore and if still alive they are clubbed to death. They may not be killed in great numbers, but it is a symbolic problem, and surely even small numbers of animals make a difference when they are endangered. It is indeed a complex ethical problem. Most are. That is why detailed research, including from humanities qualified experts, is sorely needed whenever dealing with entrenched traditions. Vets have technical expertise but not humanitie.=20 Jackie Perkins=20 -----Original Message----- From: Jo Angleberger [mailto:warblerneck@hotmail.com]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 7:40 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: excerpted information re dugongs =3D=3D=3D=3D=3DAfter getting information on apparently reliable = websites, (BELOW) the=20 question again for me is do we want to sacrifice yet another culture=20 thousands of years old or risk the life of the dugong species. Happy=20 mediums are difficult, but the only worthwhile goal IMO. I couldn't find=20 out how Austrailian aborigines are *supposed* to hunt dugongs now, but no=20 doubt the old methods are still used by those who don't care. Are the=20 dugongs clubbed to death? Read nothing about that, only about harpooning=20 with subsequent drowning. More info welcomed to my email address, thanks. What are people like us supposed to do about cultural practices in=20 Australia? If I were an anthropologist, I might try to get assigned there a=20 few years. But I'm an ordinary aging American with no direct sirenian=20 experience. BUT, I AM a member of an applied ethology group---wouldn't it=20 be great if we could act as a group and apply our collective minds to=20 addressing this and other problems with letters, phone calls, interviews,=20 lobbying? Jo From website=20 http://www.hollyandjeremy.com/wildlife/esReports/report19.html-- governments will outlaw hunting of endangered species, but in this case, the=20 hunting of dugongs are a part of Aboriginal traditions and rituals. The=20 Australian government, not wanting to interfere with the Aboriginal culture,=20 has not banned the hunting of this species, but has placed rules and=20 regulations about how they can hunt them and where. Traditionally, dugongs=20 were harpooned from canoes with a barbed harpoon attached to a rope and the=20 dugong was held by its tail in the water until it drowned. Today, the=20 Aborigines use more humane methods of capturing these mammals and are only=20 allowed to hunt them in areas where the government has concluded that the=20 population is in no danger of becoming endangered or extinct. Most of the following is from a governmental website, for much more info relevant to recent email, see=20 http://www.gbrmpa.gov.au/corp_site/key_issues/conservation/threatened_sp ecies/threats.html Maximum longevity (most die at a younger age) ~70 years Pre-reproductive period (females) 6-17 years Pre-reproductive period (males) 4-16 years Gestation period 13-15 months Litter size 1 Lactation length 14-18 months Calving interval 3-7 years Max possible rate of increase (e.g. low natural mortality & no human-induced=20 mortality) ~ 5% per year Estimated natural mortality rate ~ 5% per year Aerial surveys commissioned by the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority=20 covered 39 000 square kilometres of the inshore waters of the southern World=20 Heritage Area in 1986=9687, 1992, 1994 and 1999. Between 1986 and 1994, they=20 detected a significant population decline from an estimated 3480 (+/- 460)=20 to an estimated 1680 (+/- 240) within eight years. Whilst the results of the=20 1999 surveys showed that numbers in the southern Area were back at 1986-87=20 levels (3993 =B1 644), an analysis of dugongs caught unintentionally in shark=20 nets at bathing beaches has confirmed that the dugong population in urban=20 areas of the Queensland coast with nets is 3% of that in 1962. This was when=20 the Queensland Shark Control Program commenced. Experts consider that the decline in dugong numbers is due to unsustainable=20 mortality from human-related causes such as habitat loss or degradation, commercial mesh nets (fish nets), shark nets set for bather protection,=20 indigenous hunting, boat strikes, defence activities and illegal take. The=20 largest and most important remaining concentrations of dugongs in the=20 southern part of the World Heritage Area are in the Shoalwater Bay,=20 Cardwell/Hinchinbrook, and Cleveland to Upstart Bay areas. The dugong population in the southern Great Barrier Reef can only cope with=20 a human-caused mortality of less than 1=962% each year. This means that = if there are 200 dugongs in a bay, the population can only cope with the loss=20 of two to four dugongs per year from all human causes (i.e. fishing, boat=20 strikes and indigenous hunting). The activities associated with the hunting of dugong and turtle and=20 preparing the meat has great significance and is an expression of the=20 continuance of long cultural traditions. Great importance is placed on the=20 social sharing of the meat with members of the family. Turtle shell is=20 important to many Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander people, as=20 historically it was often fashioned into combs and fishhooks. In remote coastal areas, dugongs and green turtles have a higher social=20 value because they provide food to communities where a nourishing diet is=20 essential but often expensive to attain. In addition, these marine food=20 resources strengthen Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander culture and=20 demonstrate connection with traditional and sea country. The activity of hunting dugongs and turtles is restricted to Aboriginal=20 peoples and Torres Strait Islanders. Zoning plans for the Great Barrier Reef=20 Marine Park require that a permit be obtained for traditional hunting.=20 Consistent with the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority's policy not to=20 issue permits for hunting dugongs in the southern Great Barrier Reef, some=20 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities have made voluntary formal=20 and informal decisions not to hunt, as a contribution to addressing the=20 decline in dugong numbers in the southern Great Barrier Reef. From website=20 http://www.hollyandjeremy.com/wildlife/esReports/report19.html-- governments will outlaw hunting of endangered species, but in this case, the=20 hunting of dugongs are a part of Aboriginal traditions and rituals. The=20 Australian government, not wanting to interfere with the Aboriginal culture,=20 has not banned the hunting of this species, but has placed rules and=20 regulations about how they can hunt them and where. Traditionally, dugongs=20 were harpooned from canoes with a barbed harpoon attached to a rope and the=20 dugong was held by its tail in the water until it drowned. Today, the=20 Aborigines use more humane methods of capturing these mammals and are only=20 allowed to hunt them in areas where the government has concluded that the=20 population is in no danger of becoming endangered or extinct. The activity of hunting dugongs and turtles is restricted to Aboriginal=20 peoples and Torres Strait Islanders. Zoning plans for the Great Barrier Reef=20 Marine Park require that a permit be obtained for traditional hunting.=20 Consistent with the Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority's policy not to=20 issue permits for hunting dugongs in the southern Great Barrier Reef, some=20 Aboriginal and Torres Strait Islander communities have made voluntary formal=20 and informal decisions not to hunt, as a contribution to addressing the=20 decline in dugong numbers in the southern Great Barrier Reef. _________________________________________________________________ Share holiday photos without swamping your Inbox. Get MSN Extra Storage now! http://join.msn.com/?PAGE=3Dfeatures/es From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 29-NOV-2003 02:33:09.25 To: IN%"finklerh@post.tau.ac.il" "'Hilit Finkler'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"Rachelandphil@aol.com" "Rachel Bowater" Subj: RE: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst A dugong is a large ancient aquatic mammal, a little bit like a dolphin. They have a strange large head shape. I am no expert when it comes to aquatic species. I have a vet colleague who is also a marine biologist and member of the Australian College for Veterinary Scientists aquatic health chapter. I have sent this message to her also.=20 Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Hilit Finkler [mailto:finklerh@post.tau.ac.il]=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 2:35 AM To: Geiger; Applied-Ethology Subject: RE: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst what are dugongs? -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Monday, November 24, 2003 12:17 AM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: FW: dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food:PC at its worst There has not been one comment on the topic of dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food. I submit that this lack of response is political correctness at its worst. Subscribers are all too PC to even comment on this one! Where is everyone who is sooo concerned with ethics and animal welfare???? Dugongs are ancient herbivorous aquatic and endangered mammals. Australian natives drag them from the water and beat them to death for food. Is this practice OK with everyone out there? I suppose it must be, or is everyone too taken up with stamping out far greater evils such as tail docking and the like, to even notice? Australian natives also kill and eat giant sea turtles. Housing, food and money are available; killing dugongs and sea turtles is not done out of need. It is done purely out of tradition. Under law they are entitled to do so. Jackie Perkins I was speaking generally Andy, not to you directly. What do you (ie everyone) think of dugongs (a protected species) being routinely clubbed to death for traditional food? It is perfectly legal here in Australia. Clearly, humaneness is not a consideration of this law, just a high degree of tolerance for traditional culture. Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 11:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: research?? The word used was studies - nor did I "post any references for rubbish "research"!" (in fact I did not post any references at all) But being well aware of your entirely unpleasant and sharp-tongued lack of manners will leave you to rave on alone. I would think the comment referring to Aborigines is well out of place - perhaps it might be appropriate to an all Australian audience but even then it sounds like sour grapes - I am used to rednecks making the same kinds of comment in NZ with regard to Maori - do we have a little problem with racism perhaps - as well as a penchant for crying politics - or is this just general undirected venom at a wicked world? What is your problem? Spare me any further vitriol; placing you back in the auto delete bin ;) Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz -----Original Message----- From: Geiger [mailto:gooddog@dodo.com.au] Sent: Thursday, 30 October 2003 1:15 p.m. To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: research?? What "sufficient research"? Do you mean the "research" citing lots of unpublished data? OR the patently rhetorical research? One thing is certain; there has been no good quality or comprehensive research done on the issue of tail docking and more certainly none done by sociologists or the humanities. Those against tail docking are too confident of their position to need anything like research nor to involve humanities experts. Ps Please do not post any references for rubbish "research"! Jackie Perkins -----Original Message----- From: Andy Beck [mailto:wheep@igrin.co.nz] Sent: Thursday, October 30, 2003 8:05 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: RE: dew claws Mary I am surprised you think I do not understand =96 was there anything so complex that that would be likely? Dew claws is a separate issue =96 and I think there is no ethical = question as they are liable to tearing =96 which results in pain - therefore = removing them in a controlled manner under anaesthesia, even though it may cause some pain post-op, to prevent the much worse pain of a tear is quite ethical. This is quite different to tail docking. Even so, it would clearly be better to breed so that this becomes unnecessary. Sufficient studies have been carried out on tail docking =96 as you must surely now be aware. Therefore there is no quick judgement going on here. My response was based entirely on awareness of these findings =96 not on emotion. My dogs assist me with all farm work =96 removing feral cattle and, on occasion, pigs (fence and pasture damage), rounding up and removing neighbours sheep (except when with lambs at foot as the dogs tend to be a little hard and inexperienced for such gentle work), moving groups of horses and protecting our plants and fruit trees from possums - quite varied work, and a great deal of it out of line of sight or direct control. Please =96 no further FLAMES =96 the practice is somewhat out of place = on this list and, in my case, merely makes me bin the posting as juvenile. Regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project 433 Wharepunga Rd RD3 Kaikohe Northland Aotearoa - New Zealand http://www.equine-behavior.com http://www.equine-social-behavior.org http://www.equine-ethology.ac.nz =A0 -----Original Message----- From: mary doran [mailto:mary@fusiondesignuk.com] Sent: Wednesday, 29 October 2003 5:36 p.m. To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: dew claws You misunderstand me Andy. I did not at any point say that ANY practise should be continued. Perhaps a less emotional response with clearer reading of my exact words would have allowed you to see that I relayed factual accounts of my own experience ,and that my main point was this.. =A0 <"We should not be TOO quick to judge practices of animal husbandry if we have not researched properly the original reasons why these practices developed centuries ago, or if we ourselves have not experienced problems encountered through these procedures not being carried out at birth."> =A0 So allow me to explain=A0 further what I am implying here if you did not understand what i meant. I beleive that before taking such a step as to ban a particular practise=A0 scientific research should=A0be carried out to see IF any of these practises are justified. By 'not researched properly'=A0 what I mean is controlled long term studies following both groups of collies that are' de-clawed' a birth and also those remaining intact. The fact that=A0I relayed my own personal experience to be shortly followed by you with your OWN anecdotal experience verifys my point that without studies and facts it will be impossible to assert what is best for the breed in a non-emotional way. =A0 I am very interested to know where you work you collies with sheep. Do you take part at trial standard? Or farm work only? IF farm work, what size flocks and type=A0of land do you work. I attend alot of trials here in the UK with border collies, and I am also studying to be an animal behaviour therapist based on an ethological approach combined with operant conditoining methods.=A0 =A0I have started a survey among the regular competitors of the sport = and although it is not yet completed I have to say=A0that so far the trend among most ISDS registered working border collie breeders appears to be that removal of front dew claws is the preferred approach. The difference between you an I, it appears is that you carried out a practise of docking without questioning its validity and then stopped whereas I chose NOT to have invasive removal at birth only to discover there was a possibility of a real problem developing as a result. I do not see why you are talking about emotional knee jerks as you seem to be having on while accusing me of doing so. =A0 SO I suggested critical analysis BEFORE banning a practise as this seems a bit backwards to me. Naturally, if the study showed that removal of front dew claws was uneccessary and unrelated to following 'accidental' ripping of dew claws then I would be very happy that it was discontinued. I am wanting the best for the breed. Not sure exactly what your point is. =A0 Let me know what exactly=A0it is that you disagree with. =A0 Sincerely =A0 Mary Doran =A0 He who does not know and 'asks' is a fool for five minutes. He who does not know and does NOT ask....is a fool forever. From: IN%"gooddog@dodo.com.au" "Geiger" 29-NOV-2003 02:36:12.86 To: IN%"warblerneck@hotmail.com" "'Jo Angleberger'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dugongs I have two friends who live and work on aboriginal communities. They are eyewitnesses to the practice. Jackie -----Original Message----- From: Jo Angleberger [mailto:warblerneck@hotmail.com] Sent: Tuesday, November 25, 2003 8:09 AM To: gooddog@dodo.com.au Subject: dugongs Hi Jackie, Have you been able to witness if dugongs are killed as you describe below? Even if you haven't, that method would not be surprising since dugongs feed close to shore and easy? to catch. You wrote: There has not been one comment on the topic of dugongs clubbed to death for traditional food. I submit that this lack of response is political correctness at its worst. Subscribers are all too PC to even comment on this one! Where is everyone who is sooo concerned with ethics and animal welfare???? Dugongs are ancient herbivorous aquatic and endangered mammals. Australian natives drag them from the water and beat them to death for food. Is this practice OK with everyone out there? I suppose it must be, or is everyone too taken up with stamping out far greater evils such as tail docking and the like, to even notice? Australian natives also kill and eat giant sea turtles. Housing, food and money are available; killing dugongs and sea turtles is not done out of need. It is done purely out of tradition. Under law they are entitled to do so. Jackie Perkins _________________________________________________________________ Say "goodbye" to busy signals and slow downloads with a high-speed Internet connection! Prices start at less than $1 a day average. https://broadband.msn.com (Prices may vary by service area.) From: IN%"doggnponyshow@hotmail.com" "Kasie McGee" 29-NOV-2003 09:35:52.91 To: IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Michael & Alan, I have also seen (and read of others' observations) this expressed in herding breeds as a stereotypy. Dogs with extreme target orientation, high energy levels, +/- High anxiety levels, and not enough work to do often tail chase. I have heard anecdotal accounts that this is the main reason Australian Cattle Dogs have their tails docked, as this breed is highly prone to this behavior. Dug threw my papers, but found nothing that really applies; sorry Alan. You may want to look at some of M. Graziano's work with chimps to explore possible explanations... Kasie McGee _________________________________________________________________ Need a shot of Hank Williams or Patsy Cline? The classic country stars are always singing on MSN Radio Plus. Try one month free! http://join.msn.com/?page=offers/premiumradio From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 29-NOV-2003 11:36:22.34 To: IN%"doggnponyshow@hotmail.com", IN%"michael.meredith@btconnect.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs Naive question. I s tail chasing really a behavior problem or just a form of play? If we had tails wouldn't our kids chase them? From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D.B. Cameron" 30-NOV-2003 15:00:27.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" Subj: Dugongs, aka "Sea Cows" Thought this info might be of service to the current discussion. Sounds like the traditional legal killings are not dissimilar from our own Alaskan native legal killings of whales. If so, why not? The accompanying report does not suggest an acute problem with sea cow populations. Further, habitat destruction is apparently the problem, not native hunting. DBC ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM Animal Behavior Clinic < \ / > 15353 N. Bloomfield Road Nevada City, CA 95959 ! ! 530.265.9341 .. Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what ships are for. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D.B. Cameron" 30-NOV-2003 15:40:11.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: Dugongs, aka "Sea Cows" Sorry folks, I forgot to include this with the last posting. Now you know: . . . . . no one is perfect. DBC P.S. The photos did not come through. To see them go to Google and search: "Dugong". On my search it was the first selection. (Previous posting mentioned above) > Thought this info might be of service to the current discussion. > Sounds like the traditional legal killings are not dissimilar from our own Alaskan native legal killings of whales. If so, why not? > The accompanying report does not suggest an acute problem with sea cow populations. Further, habitat destruction is > apparently the problem associated with the reduced populations, not native hunting. > DBC .................DUGONG (Seacow) The Dugong (sometimes refered to as a "Seacow") is a mammal, that is, it suckles its young. Dugongs are large grey mammals which spend their entire lives in the sea. Though Acquatic it breathes air through lungs and has live babies not eggs like fish Dugongs swim by moving their broad spade-like tail in an up and down motion, and by use of their two flippers. Physical Description The Dugong may reach 3m in length and weigh almost 500 kgs. They have a thick layer of fat giving them a distinctly rotund posture, small paddle-like flippers positioned far forward on the body and a broad, flattened, powerful tail that resembles the tail of whale. The ochre brown skin of a Dugong appears smooth, but a really close view reveals a rough surface covered in pits from which grow short, thick hairs. Dugongs have 2 nostrils near the top of their heads on a "fleshy lip", which can curl up to make breathing easier on the surface Habitat In Australia, Dugongs swim in the shallow coastal waters of northern Australia were they find protection from large waves and storms. Dugongs surface only to breathe, and never come on to land. They like to live in large herds, but due to declining numbers are often now found in smaller "family" groups of between 1 and 3 Dugongs Breeding Female Dugongs give birth underwater to a single calf every three to seven years. Birth takes place in shallow water and the baby dugong is able to swim to the top of the water for its first breath. Baby dugongs are about 100 to 120cm long and weigh 20 to 30 kg. The calf stays with its mother, drinking milk from her teats and following close by until 18-24 months of age. Dugongs reach adult size between 9 and 17 years of age, and have a lifespan similar to humans,if left alone Numbers & Location - Australia The largest remaining dugong population in the world. In 1991 the northern Australian population was estimated at approximately 70,000 (??) with 12,500 in the Torres Straits and 1,700 in the northern Great Barrier Reef. Defence Dugongs are slow-moving and have little protection against predators. Being large animals, however, only large sharks, Saltwater Crocodiles and Killer Whales are a danger to them. Dugong (Sea Cow) Males have ivory tusks used for fighting during male-male rivalry as well for uprooting seagrasses. Young Dugongs hide behind their mothers when in danger. Diet Dugongs are sometimes called "Sea Cows", because they graze on seagrasses. These marine plants look like grass growing on a sandy sea floor in shallow, warm water. Dugongs eat large amounts of seagrass, leaving behind feeding trails of bare sand and uprooted seagrass. Conservation Status Dugongs are a protected species in Australia, only traditionally hunted by the Aborigines. Dugongs only live where thee is seagrass, which is being destroyed by dredging and farm soil being washed into the sea, as well as pollution Dugongs like dolphins are also accidental victims to large net fishing On our Great Barrier Reef the Dugong population in 1987 was approax 3,500, in 4 years (1991) the ppulation was halved to 1,700 Dugongs are definitly an endanged species and are close to extinction as can be testified by the world wide numbers below World Wide Arabian (Persian) Gulf hosts the world's second largest population of dugong, thought to number at least 5,000 to 6,000. Red Sea estimate is about 4,000 East Africa from Somalia down to Mozambique, occur in hundreds, Pacific Ocean Vanuatu (estimated population 400), Palau (under 200), the Solomons etc. Southern Asia very small numbers in Indonesia, Malaysia, Thailand, Myanmar, Papua-New Guinea, Philippines LINKS... thanks to NATHALIE from Kathmandu, Nepal Facts about Dugongs(Great Barrier Reef Marine Park Authority) Dugongs in the United Arab Emirates (UAE) Dugongs at Hervey Bay, Queensland, Australia, --------- Forwarded message ---------- From: "D.B. Cameron" To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Cc: orion1432@juno.com Date: Sun, 30 Nov 2003 12:57:36 -0800 Subject: Dugongs, aka "Sea Cows" Message-ID: <20031130.125909.14184.4.orion1432@juno.com> Thought this info might be of service to the current discussion. Sounds like the traditional legal killings are not dissimilar from our own Alaskan native legal killings of whales. If so, why not? The accompanying report does not suggest an acute problem with sea cow populations. Further, habitat destruction is apparently the problem, not native hunting. DBC ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM Animal Behavior Clinic < \ / > 15353 N. Bloomfield Road Nevada City, CA 95959 ! ! 530.265.9341 .. Ships are safe in harbor . . . But that is not what ships are for. ________________________________________________________________ The best thing to hit the internet in years - Juno SpeedBand! Surf the web up to FIVE TIMES FASTER! Only $14.95/ month - visit www.juno.com to sign up today! From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 30-NOV-2003 18:14:17.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: temporal discrimination in animals Could a non-primate mammal tell the difference between a light that flashed red-green-blue and a light that flashed red-blue-green? How about a siren that went up and one that went down? From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 30-NOV-2003 23:16:14.31 To: IN%"doggnponyshow@hotmail.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: problem behaviours in dogs In a message dated 11/30/2003 7:04:07 PM Pacific Standard Time, doggnponyshow@hotmail.com writes: Yep. Clomipramine in all but one case. That one the owner refuses to medicate. I cautioned that progress would be less, but she still chooses abstention. The others are progressing well. K You have to let her know that this is a medical problem, a malfunction in the brain that doesn't happen in dogs whose brain chemistry is normal. Depriving the dog of a medication that could help it be healthy is as misguided as refusing to treat a dog with an infection with penicillin because of the notion that a dogs immune system should be able to fight the infection off. Another analogy. If a dog is lame because of a broken leg you can try a purely behavioral approach and teach the dog to walk in spite of the broken leg, or you can get the leg set by the vet and then try and rehabilitate the dogs ability to walk. Either case may work to some degree, but the later will work faster, has a better chance of reaching a successful conclusion, and is far less cruel to the dog. This superstitious disdain of medication is something that I have seen hurt both humans and animals. Yes, medications sometimes do have undesirable side-effects and can cause worse problems than they cure, but these are the exceptions. Further, and more importantly, almost all side-effects are reversible, so if you don't like the side--effects just stop taking the medication or reduce the dose. The psychological trauma of the suffering associated with an untreated illness is far less reversible than the side-effects of the medication. If you wish to share this email with her. Please do so.