From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" "Joseph Stookey" 15-NOV-2005 13:50:13.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Measuring heart rate in chickens? This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_W0rhgItQ5D8elvF37EkZ+w) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT --Boundary_(ID_W0rhgItQ5D8elvF37EkZ+w) Content-type: message/rfc822 Return-path: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_WTveTkKF/TE/gm3tU977Xg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT Dr. Stookey, Would you please forward this to applied ethology list - I am having trouble getting it to send there.. Thanks, karen Karen Schwean-Lardner Dept of Animal and Poultry Science 6D34 Agriculture Building, 51 Campus Drive Saskatoon, SK Canada S7N 5A8 306-966-2492 karen.schwean@usask.ca _____ From: Karen Schwean [mailto:karen.schwean@usask.ca] Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:13 AM To: APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca Subject: measuring heart rate in chickens? I would very much like to measure heart rate in chickens over a period of a number of hours that are free to move around their pen (approx 3m x 3m) but am having lots of difficulty in coming up with a technique to do this. Telemetry may not work, because I believe the bird needs to be kept in close proximity to the receiver. Are there any ideas out there for how I might do this? Thanks in advance, Karen Karen Schwean-Lardner Dept of Animal and Poultry Science 6D34 Agriculture Building, 51 Campus Drive Saskatoon, SK Canada S7N 5A8 306-966-2492 karen.schwean@usask.ca From: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com" "Christina Le Breton" 15-NOV-2005 14:30:56.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fwd: Fwd: Human - dog relationships On 11/14/05, Christina Lager wrote: > I also believe that the pack teory is valid. > Not that the human need to physically dominate the dog(s) in his/her care, but to become the leader by showing good leadership viz: initiating activities, providing care, food, love and stimulating activities, protecting the "pack" from harm - well you know just generally behaving as a good leader: selfcontrolled, radiating "I know what I am doing, and are taking charge." Respect is not given - it is earned, and both need to respect each others. > I see a lot of dogs who's owners do not show good leadership thereby leaving a vacuum that the dog will try to fill out itself, often leading to frustrated attempts to control situations beyond a dogs control - barking at every passerby, being protective-aggressive towards strangers, being restless and pacing. These troubles are often solved when the owner changes his/her ways and start being a true leader - as described above. > best regards from > Christina Lager DVM > Denmark > > As an aside our own young male chesapeake (Oban) was attacked by a poodle when he was just a big pup. My husband quickly placed himself between the dogs and succeded in scaring the poodle away. The result is that even now, four years later, when other dogs act out Oban will just sit there looking up at my husband, completely trusting him to solve the problem - What a responsibility to have! > Once at a show my husband wasn't quick enough and a small dog bit Oban in the lip - and held on, trying to shake Oban, who just kept his big head completely still while bleeding quietly and keeping his eyes on my husband, who of cause plucked the little growling snapping maniac dwarfpinscher of Oban's lip, and handed the pinscher back to its owner - who laughed and said - "ooh he is sooo playfull." "yaehr right - learn some basic dog language" was my husband's reply which sent the woman into a rage, so we walked away, went home and cleaned Oban up... > The above is exactly what I was saying. You don't need to fight your dog for the alpha position. True, many still do it, however just having that sense of control, of confidence, of leadership will allow you to better handle your pooch. Like I said, it will make the dog feel WAY more comfortable knowing you are in control...and I also should have said "have you ever seen GOOD, EXPERIENCED trainers or behaviorists" because it is also true that many trainers/behaviorists have no idea what they are doing or what is going on, or even how to deal with it and quite frankly shouldn't go 100 feet near a dog with behavioral issues, especially something as severe as aggression. I have had many trainers e-mail me for a course in aggression, but this is NOT something you can teach over the internet....or even over night. Understanding canide behavior comes from years of interacting with them....I don't believe it is something you can fully, 100% learn from a book...but from classes and ownership. The books help though. My family and I live with a pack of 6 dogs (our packs have always ranged from 2-4 dogs since the time I was born. It is the most natural feeling thing for me....to have a pack that is.) which are all various ages and breeds. 5 males, 1 female. We are in control at ALL times, and in 6 years we've only had one problem. Christina Le Breton From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 15-NOV-2005 14:54:46.11 To: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Human - dog relationships In a message dated 11/15/2005 2:32:01 P.M. Central Standard Time, k9ruler@gmail.com writes: and I also should have said "have you ever seen GOOD, EXPERIENCED trainers or behaviorists" because it is also true that many trainers/behaviorists have no idea what they are doing or what is going on, or even how to deal with it and quite frankly shouldn't go 100 feet near a dog with behavioral issues, especially something as severe as aggression. A blanket statement like that probably isn't very accurate or helpful. I feel I must mention that ANYONE can call themselves a behaviorist but there are people who actually have credentials and are qualified to work with behavior problems in dogs. There are veterinarians board certified in the specialty of behavior and persons who have a certification from the Animal Behavior Society as well. These are behaviorists who truly deserve that title and do know what they are doing. Best regards, Debbie Debra F. Horwitz, DVM DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations 11469 Olive Blvd. #254 St. Louis, MO 63141-7108 Phone and fax: 314-567-4131 e-mail: DebHdvm@aol.com From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" 16-NOV-2005 08:35:55.92 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" "Joseph Stookey", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Measuring heart rate in chickens? Karen, I'm afraid that you are probably asking for something that technology can not yet provide. We recently had a demonstration by a well known telemetry company and we were dismayed to hear that implanted telemetry devices for small animals have a transmission range of only approx 30 cm, i.e. the animal must remain within 30 cm of a receiver for you to receive the signal. Obviously this does not really allow the animal the opportunity to behave 'normally' Interestingly, they have got around this problem for cattle by placing a booster/repeater on a collar that the cow wears. Sorry I can't be more positive, and if you do find anything suitable, please let me know as I would be very interested. All the best, Chris --On 15 November 2005 13:51 -0600 Joseph Stookey wrote: > > Dr. Stookey, > > Would you please forward this to applied ethology list - I am having > trouble getting it to send there.. > > Thanks, > > karen > > Karen Schwean-Lardner > Dept of Animal and Poultry Science > 6D34 Agriculture Building, 51 Campus Drive > Saskatoon, SK Canada > S7N 5A8 > 306-966-2492 > karen.schwean@usask.ca > > > > __________________________________________________ > From: Karen Schwean [mailto:karen.schwean@usask.ca] > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:13 AM > To: APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca > Subject: measuring heart rate in chickens? > > > > > > > I would very much like to measure heart rate in chickens over a period of > a number of hours that are free to move around their pen (approx 3m x 3m) > but am having lots of difficulty in coming up with a technique to do > this. Telemetry may not work, because I believe the bird needs to be > kept in close proximity to the receiver. Are there any ideas out there > for how I might do this? > > Thanks in advance, > > Karen > > Karen Schwean-Lardner > Dept of Animal and Poultry Science > 6D34 Agriculture Building, 51 Campus Drive > Saskatoon, SK Canada > S7N 5A8 > 306-966-2492 > karen.schwean@usask.ca > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 From: IN%"rr25@cam.ac.uk" "Rosemary Rodd" 16-NOV-2005 08:50:31.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Credentials On 15 Nov 2005, at 20:54, DebHdvm@aol.com wrote: > I must mention that ANYONE can call themselves a behaviorist but > there are people who actually have credentials and are qualified to > work with behavior problems in dogs. There are veterinarians board > certified in the specialty of behavior and persons who have a > certification from the Animal Behavior Society as well. Is there any similar qualification in the UK? If so, I would be very grateful if anyone could give details of exactly what we should be asking for. I'm on the committee of a small humane society and it would occasionally be important for us to get an assessment of individual dogs by someone with definite professional qualifications, rather than simply experience in handling dogs or membership of a trade association. Rosemary Rodd From: IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 16-NOV-2005 09:14:35.21 To: IN%"rr25@cam.ac.uk" "Rosemary Rodd", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Credentials Regretably in the UK we have a similar / worse situation, however there = is some light at the end of the tunnel, with a number or recent = initiatives. The Royal College of Veterinary Surgeons has strict criteria for the = recognition of specialist status and currently there are only two of us = in behaviour (The other is Paul McGreevy who is MRCVS but based in = Australia). They would normally recognise the European Diploma as = qualification for specialist recognition, but as this has only recently = been launched, it is not currently recognised. In the UK I think there = are two other DipECVBM-CA (Sarah Heath and Rachel Casey). As for = non-veterinarians, anyone can call themself what they like but ASAB the = European sister of ABS has tried to establish a similar scheme to ABS = certification in the UK. This allows individuals who meet certain = criteria to call themselves certfiicated clinical companion animal = behaviourists. There are currently around 10 as this too is a new = venture and needs further established behaviourists to come forward for = certification ( a list of CCABs can be found on the ASAB web- site) . A = difference though with the ASAB scheme is that it requires only graduate = level knowledge not post graduate level training, however at least it is = an independent scrutinisation process. beyond that there are many trade = organisations and some have their own criteria for membership, but this = is a very difficult field to fathom. The Government is currently looking = at it as an area requiring potential regulation but unless evidence of = poor service is forthcoming they are unlikely to act. So if you have any = information concerning the standard of service offered and confusion = generated by all the qualifications out there, then I would be = interested in receiveing it as I am on the advisory body preparing the = report on this matter for the Companion Animal Welfare Council . We = would also be interested to hear from anyone who received poor advice = and then appeared to have no line of recourse to address this. I would = be pleased for anyone to post this request to relevant dog groups = globally as any evidence will be useful. It is perhaps surprising how = difficult such evidence is to come by. =20 =20 =20 Daniel S. Mills BVSc PhD ILTM CBiol MIBiol Dip ECVBM-CA MRCVS Professor & RCVS Recognised Specialist in Veterinary Behavioural = Medicine Animal Behaviour, Cognition & Welfare Group University of Lincoln, Dept of Biological Sciences, Riseholme Park, Lincoln, U.K. LN2 2LG tel 44 (0)1522 895356 email dmills@lincoln.ac.uk web page: http://www.lincoln.ac.uk/dbs/staff/479.asp ________________________________ From: Rosemary Rodd [mailto:rr25@cam.ac.uk] Sent: Wed 16/11/2005 14:47 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Credentials On 15 Nov 2005, at 20:54, DebHdvm@aol.com wrote: I must mention that ANYONE can call themselves a behaviorist but there = are people who actually have credentials and are qualified to work with = behavior problems in dogs. There are veterinarians board certified in = the specialty of behavior and persons who have a certification from the = Animal Behavior Society as well.=20 Is there any similar qualification in the UK? If so, I would be very = grateful if anyone could give details of exactly what we should be = asking for. I'm on the committee of a small humane society and it would = occasionally be important for us to get an assessment of individual dogs = by someone with definite professional qualifications, rather than simply = experience in handling dogs or membership of a trade association. =20 Rosemary Rodd From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 16-NOV-2005 12:07:20.72 To: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" CC: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" "Joseph Stookey", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Measuring heart rate in chickens? Wow. This is unbelievable: It basically means the technology has not changed at bit since 1997. I remember asking all the companies involved in electrophysiological apparati at the 1997 Neuroscience meeting about the range offered. The maximum was a few metres. I was looking at half a kilometer. They said it would get there soon... I guess it never did. Friends that are knowledgeable in electronics tell me that there is not reasons why miniaturization and range would be an issue. Missed opportunities? Or cost issue? S. Gadbois --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University Halifax, NS, Canada Ethology, neuroethology, behavioural endocrinology Dogs, wolves, coyotes, red foxes & Fundulids http://www.gadbois.org/ Office LSC 2519; Lab LSC 4234/4235 --- On 16-Nov-05, at 10:35 AM, CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry wrote: > Karen, > > I'm afraid that you are probably asking for something that > technology can not yet provide. We recently had a demonstration by > a well known telemetry company and we were dismayed to hear that > implanted telemetry devices for small animals have a transmission > range of only approx 30 cm, i.e. the animal must remain within 30 > cm of a receiver for you to receive the signal. Obviously this > does not really allow the animal the opportunity to behave > 'normally' Interestingly, they have got around this problem for > cattle by placing a booster/repeater on a collar that the cow > wears. Sorry I can't be more positive, and if you do find anything > suitable, please let me know as I would be very interested. > > All the best, > > Chris > > --On 15 November 2005 13:51 -0600 Joseph Stookey > wrote: > >> >> Dr. Stookey, >> >> Would you please forward this to applied ethology list - I am having >> trouble getting it to send there.. >> >> Thanks, >> >> karen >> >> Karen Schwean-Lardner >> Dept of Animal and Poultry Science >> 6D34 Agriculture Building, 51 Campus Drive >> Saskatoon, SK Canada >> S7N 5A8 >> 306-966-2492 >> karen.schwean@usask.ca >> >> >> >> __________________________________________________ >> From: Karen Schwean [mailto:karen.schwean@usask.ca] >> Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:13 AM >> To: APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca >> Subject: measuring heart rate in chickens? >> >> >> >> >> >> >> I would very much like to measure heart rate in chickens over a >> period of >> a number of hours that are free to move around their pen (approx >> 3m x 3m) >> but am having lots of difficulty in coming up with a technique to do >> this. Telemetry may not work, because I believe the bird needs to be >> kept in close proximity to the receiver. Are there any ideas out >> there >> for how I might do this? >> >> Thanks in advance, >> >> Karen >> >> Karen Schwean-Lardner >> Dept of Animal and Poultry Science >> 6D34 Agriculture Building, 51 Campus Drive >> Saskatoon, SK Canada >> S7N 5A8 >> 306-966-2492 >> karen.schwean@usask.ca >> > > > > ---------------------- > Chris Sherwin > Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare > Division Clinical Veterinary Science > University of Bristol > Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > Phone 0117 928 9486 From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 16-NOV-2005 12:18:05.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Measuring heart rate in chickens? Chris Sherwin wrote: > I'm afraid that you are probably asking for something that technology can > not yet provide. We recently had a demonstration by a well known telemetry > company and we were dismayed to hear that implanted telemetry devices for > small animals have a transmission range of only approx 30 cm, i.e. the > animal must remain within 30 cm of a receiver for you to receive the > signal. Obviously this does not really allow the animal the opportunity to > behave 'normally' Interestingly, they have got around this problem for > cattle by placing a booster/repeater on a collar that the cow wears. Sorry > I can't be more positive, and if you do find anything suitable, please let > me know as I would be very interested. We recently encountered a similar situation with respect to telemetric recording of body temperature in much larger animals than chickens, i.e. Greyhounds while running in a field (not racetrack) situation. The available devices (intended for recording temperature in human athletes) require the receiver to be placed almost in direct contact with the animal or person in whose digestive tract the (disposable ) transmitter is currently residing. We would like to be able to record, at intervals not greater than say ten seconds, the body temperature of an animal at least half a mile distant from the receiver. For decades now it has been customary to equip falcons with *locating* transmitters, which broadcast a telemetry signal with a range of several miles or more. I myself have used such equipment since about 1975. The transmitters I have used weigh about 7 grams (including batteries sufficient for several days of continuous broadcasting) and can be attached e.g. to the base of a tail feather without interfering in any way with the bird's normal activities. The transmitter can be attached or removed instantly at any time, but cannot be removed by the bird. With a slightly larger battery (total weight of the unit 20 grams) you can have several *months* of signal. The use of similar transmitters to locate dogs in the field is also well established. So where is the ingenious electronic wizard who can figure out how to modulate the signal from such a transmitter so it can carry information about temperature, heart rate or whatever else one might measure with an implanted sensor? John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" 16-NOV-2005 12:28:25.08 To: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois", IN%"Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" CC: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" "Joseph Stookey", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Measuring heart rate in chickens? Simon, I think that there has been a great push towards miniaturisation for=20 implantation of devices into small animals such as mice. But, this has=20 been for applications where the animals are routinely housed in small=20 cages, e.g. laboratory mice. So, transmission range has not been an issue. = As behaviouralists, we want our animals to move around, but this does not=20 seem to have been included in the design specifications of this technology. = My understanding is that the biggest problem is battery size. The larger=20 the battery, the longer the life and the more information that can be=20 gathered/sent, but animals have a finite body size! Chris --On 16 November 2005 14:06 -0400 Simon Gadbois wrote: > Wow. This is unbelievable:=A0 It basically means the technology has not > changed at bit since 1997. I remember asking all the companies involved > in electrophysiological apparati at the 1997 Neuroscience meeting about > the range offered. The maximum was a few metres. I was looking at half a > kilometer. They said it would get=A0 there soon... I guess it never did. > Friends that are knowledgeable in electronics tell me that there is not > reasons why miniaturization and range would be an issue. Missed > opportunities?=A0 Or cost issue? > > > S. Gadbois > > > > > > > > > > --- > Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. > Assistant Professor > Psychology / Neuroscience > Dalhousie University > Halifax, NS, Canada > Ethology, neuroethology, behavioural endocrinology > Dogs, wolves, coyotes, red foxes & Fundulids > http://www.gadbois.org/ > Office LSC 2519; Lab LSC 4234/4235 > --- > > > > On 16-Nov-05, at 10:35 AM, CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry wrote: > > > Karen, > > > I'm afraid that you are probably asking for something that technology can > not yet provide.=A0 We recently had a demonstration by a well known > telemetry company and we were dismayed to hear that implanted telemetry > devices for small animals have a transmission range of only approx 30 cm, > i.e. the animal must remain within 30 cm of a receiver for you to receive > the signal.=A0 Obviously this does not really allow the animal the > opportunity to behave 'normally'=A0 Interestingly, they have got around > this problem for cattle by placing a booster/repeater on a collar that > the cow wears.=A0 Sorry I can't be more positive, and if you do find > anything suitable, please let me know as I would be very interested. > > > All the best, > > > Chris > > > --On 15 November 2005 13:51 -0600 Joseph Stookey > wrote: > > > > > > > Dr. Stookey, > > > Would you please forward this to applied ethology list - I am having > trouble getting it to send there.. > > > Thanks, > > > karen > > > Karen Schwean-Lardner > Dept of Animal and Poultry Science > 6D34 Agriculture Building, 51 Campus Drive > Saskatoon, SK Canada > S7N 5A8 > 306-966-2492 > karen.schwean@usask.ca > > > > > > > __________________________________________________ > From: Karen Schwean [mailto:karen.schwean@usask.ca] > Sent: Monday, November 14, 2005 11:13 AM > To: APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca > Subject: measuring heart rate in chickens? > > > > > > > > > > > > > I would very much like to measure heart rate in chickens over a period of > a number of hours that are free to move around their pen (approx 3m x 3m) > but am having lots of difficulty in coming up with a technique to do > this.=A0 Telemetry may not work, because I believe the bird needs to be > kept in close proximity to the receiver.=A0 Are there any ideas out there > for how I might do this? > > > Thanks in advance, > > > Karen > > > Karen Schwean-Lardner > Dept of Animal and Poultry Science > 6D34 Agriculture Building, 51 Campus Drive > Saskatoon, SK Canada > S7N 5A8 > 306-966-2492 > karen.schwean@usask.ca > > > > > > > > > > > ---------------------- > Chris Sherwin > Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare > Division Clinical Veterinary Science > University of Bristol > Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > Phone 0117 928 9486 > > > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Senior Research Fellow in Animal Behaviour and Welfare Division Clinical Veterinary Science University of Bristol Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk Phone 0117 928 9486 From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 16-NOV-2005 14:57:39.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Measuring heart rate in chickens? Simon Gadbois wrote: > Wow. This is unbelievable: It basically means the technology has not > changed at bit since 1997. I remember asking all the companies > involved in electrophysiological apparati at the 1997 Neuroscience > meeting about the range offered. The maximum was a few metres. I was > looking at half a kilometer. They said it would get there soon... I > guess it never did. Friends that are knowledgeable in electronics > tell me that there is not reasons why miniaturization and range would > be an issue. Missed opportunities? Or cost issue? I share Simon's astonishment. Relevant transmitter technology has been available for more than 30 years. Given the sophistication of e.g. the physically rather small chips ("codecs") which perform astoundingly complex encoding and decoding of signals in ordinary computer modems (not expensive items ...) the "pieces" of this puzzle are surely already available and would not need to be developed specially for this purpose. It just needs somebody clever enough to hook them up together in the right way. Would this be a worthwhile project for someone's thesis in electronic engineering at MIT? Companies need to anticipate a "market" before investing money in R&D. Academic institutions do not, or at least should not, necessarily labor under the same, sometimes vision-limiting constraint ... John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"jhaskins@tpg.com.au" "Jenny Haskins" 17-NOV-2005 21:28:56.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: cow sucking its own milk! No! I seriously doubt it! This was why I originally put in my throw-away line about only women who have suckled a baby should have anything to do with dairy cows. (And I *do* apologise to all you people who do care well for your dairy animals, and I *do* know that many excellent dairy people are men or women who haven't nursed a baby.) But very full breasts, as they are in the morning, can be very very painful. And this pain can last even through a feed if your breasts have been too engorged. And lead to mastitis. Which is even more incredibly painful. It would have no relation to 'taste' of the milk, but a cow does not have the option of having a warm shower and expressing some milk. It would seem to me that if you want to breed a cow who produced enough milk for a litterl of calves, then you owe it to the poor animal to milk more than twice daily. Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour, Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: "CM Sherwin, Animal Health and Husbandry" To: Sent: Tuesday, 15 November 2005 3:36 AM Subject: RE: cow sucking its own milk! > > Dear All, > Is it not possible that there is another explanation for this cow's > behaviour. Possibly, the milk produced by the cow in the morning tastes > better or is more nutritionally satisfying. The cow has learnt through > trial and error that this is the best time to drink her own milk and might > be unrelated to udder distension. > > Chris From: IN%"sue@dogsinthepark.ca" "Sue Alexander" 20-NOV-2005 07:28:42.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Human - dog relationships Interesting discussion. I for one don't buy the alpha/dominance model = for relationships between humans and dogs. I believe in partnership. = As a long time dog owner, trainer and behaviour consultant, I find that = as soon as we frame the relationship as a hierarchy, the whole business = goes haywire. Most people don't have any idea what dominance means and = they don't differentiate dominance from status or plain old operant = effects (if jumping up gets you touch and social contact, then it is = being operantly reinforced and may have NOTHING to do with hierarchy or = dominance or status), so if you choose the dominance model to explain = everything, you end up with an owner who spends all of his or her time = trying to harass the dog instead of placing concrete rules in place that = they can live with. If you pick apart the dominance models espoused by = various programs, they can all be boiled down to an operant program for = teaching the dog what is and is not permitted in the home he lives in-so = push your dog to the ground and pin him for jumping up on you and the = dog learns that doing so causes him pain...so don't do it. The = dominance programs that don't work are the ones that prime the dog to be = afraid of you by repeatedly pinning the dog for no particular reason = other than to assert your dominance. =20 One of the very interesting things that comes along when you start to = think of the relationship in terms of rules that you and the dog can = understand and that you can operantly teach the dog and as a partnership = is that there are times to allow the dog to take the leading role in = your dance. I was out in NYC with a dog on Friday and we had parted = ways with the other person and dog we were staying with. After my dog = had voided, he sat beside me and looked up (a trained cue that we use to = tell each other that we want to start a behaviour) and I cued him to do = whatever he wanted. He dropped his nose to the pavement and started to = track. We tracked our friends all the way around the park, back up the = road and to the apartment...because it amuses him to track and it amuses = me to follow when he is doing so (not too bad either considering he is = trained to track on natural surfaces and concrete is so much harder a = surface to glean scent off of). I was happy to follow him along and = allow him to lead within the confines of keeping both of us safe in a = very busy urban environment. The key here is that we are partners-I = allow him to lead some of the time and he allows me to lead some of the = time. =20 A question that I have for the dominance crowd is to show where else we = see multi-species dominance hierarchies. I know of only two studies = that use dominance to describe the relationship between two species-one = involving closely related passerine species (chickadees and nuthatches) = and one involving reef fish (cannot remember species of that one-I think = there were four different species). The question I would pose would be = that if the relationship between humans and dogs is a hierarchical one, = then do we describe other interspecies relationships as hierarchical? = From where I sit, beside my dog...I think dominance and hierarchy are = best used to describe intraspecific, not interspecific relationships. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 21-NOV-2005 11:20:27.42 To: IN%"avsab@yahoogoups.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"DACVB@yahoogroups.com", IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk", IN%"dmills@lincoln.ac.uk", IN%"c.beata@noos.fr", IN%"osellamc@libero.it", IN%"kersti@ava.com.au", IN%"fau@mac.com", IN%"joel.dehasse@skynet.be", IN%"moisesheiblum@yahoo.com", IN%"pherosynthes Subj: Final Call for papers Please join us in Hawaii in July 2006 for the combined AVSAB/ACVB =20 educational meeting. Those interested in presenting papers please read the=20= call for=20 papers below.=20 =20 =20 CALL FOR PAPERS JOINT AVSAB/ACVB PAPER SESSION=20 AVMA ANNUAL MEETING HONOLULU, HI JULY 2006 The AVSAB/ACVB joint scientific veterinary behavior meeting will be held on= =20 July 16-17th, 2006 in conjunction with the AVMA in Honolulu, HI. Scientist= s=20 and practitioners from all related disciplines are encouraged to submit=20 abstracts for consideration. These may be in the form of original (unpublis= hed)=20 research results, case studies or scientific reviews.=20 Final presentations will be in the form of full spoken papers, spoken short= =20 communications and posters. Speakers of full and short presentations will=20 receive complementary registration for the conference including published=20 proceedings. =20 Submission and review procedure:=20 All submissions should be completed on the official submission form=20 available at: _www.avsab.us_ (http://www.avsab.us/) =20 The committee is not responsible for papers submitted incorrectly and=20 therefore not reviewed.=20 All submissions will be triple reviewed anonymously. Each paper will be=20 evaluated according to its scientific merit (see guidelines below for diffe= rent=20 types of submission), originality and interest to the discipline.=20 Submissions are due December 1, 2005 and authors of all submissions will be= =20 notified of the outcome of the review process by January 30th 2006. Author= s=20 of accepted submissions will be expected to produce a full publication in=20 accordance with the guidelines provided, by the due date of April 1st 2006=20= in=20 order for the work to be published in the proceedings. In the case of work=20 destined for journal publication elsewhere, authors may emphasize the basis= of=20 the topic with brief details of the methods and key experimental findings i= n=20 order to limit the risk of jeopardizing publication through prior publicati= on.=20 Full experimental results should however be presented at the meeting.=20 Assistance with English will be available to those for whom English is not=20= their=20 first language. =20 Awards Information: Continuing with the tradition started in 2005 there wil= l=20 be awards granted for outstanding research by a veterinarian in an ACVB=20 approved residency or training program* and by a veterinary technician. Th= e=20 winner of the award is determined based upon the anonymous reviews of the=20 abstract submitted for consideration for presentation at the ACVB/AVSAB Sci= entific=20 Paper Session. =20 Premier Pet Products will be sponsoring the second annual RK Anderson ACVB=20 resident=E2=80=99s award for the highest scoring paper submitted. The SVBT=20= will be=20 sponsoring the second annual SVBT award for the highest scoring technician= =20 paper submitted. The award is open to professional members of the SVBT.=20 *Veterinarians in an ACVB approved residency or training program that wish=20 to have their paper considered for the award must present a full spoken pap= er.=20 Short communications and posters will not be considered for the award. The= =20 abstract must contain sufficient information regarding the hypothesis,=20 materials and methods, data, data analysis, results and discussion to permi= t=20 evaluation of the scientific merit of the research, although final data, da= ta=20 analysis, conclusions and discussion are not required. The abstract must b= e at=20 least two pages, but not more than three pages in length (see official form= and=20 directions at: www.avsab.us. =20 Debra F. Horwitz, DVM DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations 11469 Olive Blvd. #254 St. Louis, MO 63141-7108 Phone and fax: 314-567-4131 e-mail: DebHdvm@aol.com From: IN%"cjzuvella@yahoo.com" "Carol Zuvella" 22-NOV-2005 01:08:08.92 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dog chewing food My dog has been chewing her right hind paw for a year now. Three vets have been unable to help. Does anyone have any similar problems or suggestions? From: IN%"cjzuvella@yahoo.com" "Carol Zuvella" 22-NOV-2005 01:21:59.58 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dog Chewing Foot Previous message contained typo. Should be above subject (foot not food). Thanks! From: IN%"Michael@animalbehaviourconsulting.com.au" "Michael Hayward (ABC home)" 22-NOV-2005 03:58:24.99 To: IN%"cjzuvella@yahoo.com" "'Carol Zuvella'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog chewing food Hasn't one of my brethren suggested amputation yet? That's the traditional treatment: chasing tail - cut it off, biting - pull the canines, scratching furniture - remove the claws. So what do you do with a vet with his tongue lodged in his cheek? More seriously - have they * skin scraped * cultured * biopsied * radiographed * tried bandaging that foot for a week or so If chewing moves to another foot I would be thinking behavioural - anxiety - and treating that path. But you should rule out mites, infection, arthritis, foreign body first. Michael Michael Hayward BVSc CMAVA Gungahlin Veterinary Hospital 21 Crinigan Circle GUNGAHLIN ACT 2912 02 6242 7276 -----Original Message----- From: Carol Zuvella [mailto:cjzuvella@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2005 5:08 PM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Dog chewing food My dog has been chewing her right hind paw for a year now. Three vets have been unable to help. Does anyone have any similar problems or suggestions? From: IN%"clager@c.dk" "Christina Lager" 22-NOV-2005 06:49:21.28 To: IN%"Michael@animalbehaviourconsulting.com.au" "Michael Hayward (ABC home)" CC: IN%"cjzuvella@yahoo.com" "'Carol Zuvella'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: RE: Dog chewing food I agree with Michael's suggestions, but would like to add that e.g. arthritis or an old frature, that gives discomfort/pain can make a dog lick himself, and if he has licked the areal long enough it gives raise to dermatitis - infection of the skin - so you would need to 1) find out why, 2) remove cause 3)treat the dermatitis - only when you are 100% sure that there is no physical cause can you start thinking in terms of behaviour - anxiety or ocd, would be in my mind then, although I have seen this type of problem starting out as a result of understimulation (boredom) or overstimulation (stress) - Ok all this is a lot of detectivework, and it would be best if you can find one person to follow through, instead of having to go from person to person, risking that something is overlooked in the process. And for this reason I would suggest that you partner up with a vet with a special interest / education in behaviour, or a closeworking team of a vet and a behaviourconsultant. best regards from Christina Lager DVM Sinding Denmark "Michael Hayward (ABC home)" wrote: > Hasn't one of my brethren suggested amputation yet? That's > the > traditional treatment: chasing tail - cut it off, biting - > pull the > canines, scratching furniture - remove the claws. > > So what do you do with a vet with his tongue lodged in his > cheek? > > More seriously - have they > > * skin scraped > * cultured > * biopsied > * radiographed > * tried bandaging that foot for a week or so > > If chewing moves to another foot I would be thinking > behavioural - > anxiety - and treating that path. But you should rule out > mites, > infection, arthritis, foreign body first. > > Michael > > Michael Hayward BVSc CMAVA > Gungahlin Veterinary Hospital > 21 Crinigan Circle > GUNGAHLIN ACT 2912 > 02 6242 7276 > > -----Original Message----- > From: Carol Zuvella [mailto:cjzuvella@yahoo.com] > Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2005 5:08 PM > To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Dog chewing food > > > My dog has been chewing her right hind paw for a year now. > Three vets > have been unable to help. Does anyone have any similar > problems or > suggestions? > mvh Christina Lager From: IN%"cathib333@msn.com" "CATHI BROWN" 22-NOV-2005 07:02:18.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: Dog chewing foot Message ----- Original Message ----- From: CATHI BROWN To: Michael Hayward (ABC home) Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 6:52 AM Subject: Re: Dog chewing food You also have to determine if you have reinforced the behavior by giving the dog attention when it does chew- negative or otherwise. ----- Original Message ----- From: Michael Hayward (ABC home) To: 'Carol Zuvella' ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 3:57 AM Subject: RE: Dog chewing food Hasn't one of my brethren suggested amputation yet? That's the traditional treatment: chasing tail - cut it off, biting - pull the canines, scratching furniture - remove the claws. So what do you do with a vet with his tongue lodged in his cheek? More seriously - have they a.. skin scraped b.. cultured c.. biopsied d.. radiographed e.. tried bandaging that foot for a week or so If chewing moves to another foot I would be thinking behavioural - anxiety - and treating that path. But you should rule out mites, infection, arthritis, foreign body first. Michael Michael Hayward BVSc CMAVA Gungahlin Veterinary Hospital 21 Crinigan Circle GUNGAHLIN ACT 2912 02 6242 7276 -----Original Message----- From: Carol Zuvella [mailto:cjzuvella@yahoo.com] Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2005 5:08 PM To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Dog chewing food My dog has been chewing her right hind paw for a year now. Three vets have been unable to help. Does anyone have any similar problems or suggestions? From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 22-NOV-2005 23:26:02.06 To: IN%"clager@c.dk" "Christina Lager", IN%"Michael@animalbehaviourconsulting.com.au" "Michael Hayward (ABC home)" CC: IN%"cjzuvella@yahoo.com" "'Carol Zuvella'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: RE: Dog chewing food I would add allergies to the list as well, both contact and inhaled (which can cause itchy skin). Also hypothyroidism. Remember also that there could be an initial precipitating cause, then skin irritation, anxiety from the irritation, etc, could be continuing it. Janice Willard, DVM, MS Moscow, ID USA ----- Original Message ----- From: "Christina Lager" To: "Michael Hayward (ABC home)" Cc: "'Carol Zuvella'" ; Sent: Tuesday, November 22, 2005 4:49 AM Subject: Re: RE: Dog chewing food >I agree with Michael's suggestions, but would like to add that e.g. >arthritis or an old frature, that gives discomfort/pain can make a dog lick >himself, and if he has licked the areal long enough it gives raise to >dermatitis - infection of the skin - so you would need to 1) find out why, >2) remove cause 3)treat the dermatitis - only when you are 100% sure that >there is no physical cause can you start thinking in terms of behaviour - >anxiety or ocd, would be in my mind then, although I have seen this type of >problem starting out as a result of understimulation (boredom) or >overstimulation (stress) - > Ok all this is a lot of detectivework, and it would be best if you can > find one person to follow through, instead of having to go from person to > person, risking that something is overlooked in the process. And for this > reason I would suggest that you partner up with a vet with a special > interest / education in behaviour, or a closeworking team of a vet and a > behaviourconsultant. > > best regards from > Christina Lager DVM > Sinding > Denmark > > > > "Michael Hayward (ABC home)" > wrote: >> Hasn't one of my brethren suggested amputation yet? That's >> the >> traditional treatment: chasing tail - cut it off, biting - >> pull the >> canines, scratching furniture - remove the claws. >> >> So what do you do with a vet with his tongue lodged in his >> cheek? >> >> More seriously - have they >> >> * skin scraped >> * cultured >> * biopsied >> * radiographed >> * tried bandaging that foot for a week or so >> >> If chewing moves to another foot I would be thinking >> behavioural - >> anxiety - and treating that path. But you should rule out >> mites, >> infection, arthritis, foreign body first. >> >> Michael >> >> Michael Hayward BVSc CMAVA >> Gungahlin Veterinary Hospital >> 21 Crinigan Circle >> GUNGAHLIN ACT 2912 >> 02 6242 7276 >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Carol Zuvella [mailto:cjzuvella@yahoo.com] >> Sent: Tuesday, 22 November 2005 5:08 PM >> To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >> Subject: Dog chewing food >> >> >> My dog has been chewing her right hind paw for a year now. >> Three vets >> have been unable to help. Does anyone have any similar >> problems or >> suggestions? >> > > > mvh > Christina Lager > > > -- > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Free Edition. > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.5/177 - Release Date: 11/21/2005 > > -- No virus found in this outgoing message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.5/177 - Release Date: 11/21/2005 From: IN%"rattitude@gmail.com" 23-NOV-2005 12:18:56.19 To: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Measuring heart rate in chickens? >Simon Gadbois wrote: > > > Wow. This is unbelievable: It basically means the technology has not > > changed at bit since 1997. I remember asking all the companies > > involved in electrophysiological apparati at the 1997 Neuroscience > > meeting about the range offered. The maximum was a few metres. I was > > looking at half a kilometer. I encourage you to contact Prof Malcolm Mitchell who developed telemetry for pigs that broadcasts in this range and has also conducted similar work with chickens, calves and other animals. He was working at Roslin with equipment manufactured by Sisloe. The limiting factor is often battery strength and longevity but they seemed to have it worked out. However since my collaboration with them Prof Mitchell has left his position and Silsoe is closing--so I don't know the current availability of this exellent technology which broadcast either ECG or claculate heart rate, and deep body temperature over significant distances. Emily P-K From: IN%"thomassebastian10@yahoo.com" "thomas sebastian" 23-NOV-2005 21:52:20.52 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology email" CC: Subj: cows mounting on humans ! Milch cows are generally reared individually in households in India.During peak estrus if humans go near the animal for feeding etc they will try to mount on humans.I have witnessed instances of injuries to people due to this behavior.I am interested in knowing whether Bos taurus animals also behave like this.But I don't think that it is due to sexual attration because I have also seen them mounting on trees during estrus. thomas Thomas sebastian Graduate student Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine 52 Campus Drive University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, SK S7N 5B4 ,canada Ph001-306-966-7056(o) 001-306-244-7573(R) 001-306-220-5601(cell) --------------------------------- Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. From: IN%"securtis@uiuc.edu" "Stanley Curtis" 24-NOV-2005 04:47:13.76 To: IN%"thomassebastian10@yahoo.com" "thomas sebastian", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology email" CC: Subj: RE: cows mounting on humans ! Yes, many domestic Bos taurus cows in estrus -- given the opportunity -- will mount a human -- frontwise, backwise, sidewise, whateverwise -- often causing serious injury due to bumping heads or flying hooves or crushing or some such in the process- Naive neophytes walking amongst dairy cows in drylots soon learn to keep an eye out for a cow walking intentionally/purposefully in their direction- Stanley Curtis Department of Animal Sciences University of Illinois at Urbana ----- Original Message ----- From: thomas sebastian To: applied ethology email Sent: Wednesday, November 23, 2005 9:51 PM Subject: cows mounting on humans ! Milch cows are generally reared individually in households in India.During peak estrus if humans go near the animal for feeding etc they will try to mount on humans.I have witnessed instances of injuries to people due to this behavior.I am interested in knowing whether Bos taurus animals also behave like this.But I don't think that it is due to sexual attration because I have also seen them mounting on trees during estrus. thomas Thomas sebastian Graduate student Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine 52 Campus Drive University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, SK S7N 5B4 ,canada Ph001-306-966-7056(o) 001-306-244-7573(R) 001-306-220-5601(cell) ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ Yahoo! Music Unlimited - Access over 1 million songs. Try it free. From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 28-NOV-2005 12:30:09.72 To: IN%"thomassebastian10@yahoo.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: cows mounting on humans ! In a message dated 11/28/2005 10:25:36 A.M. Pacific Standard Time, thomassebastian10@yahoo.com writes: But I don't think that it is due to sexual attration because I have also seen them mounting on trees during estrus. thomas During estrus? Do female cows mount?