Subject: question re sheep tail docking From: Rexxie1@aol.com Date: Fri, 12 Oct 2007 04:39:27 -0400 (EDT) To: applied-ethology@usask.ca CC: HalversonAWI@aol.com Dear all, According to Western Maryland Research and Education Center/Maryland Cooperative Extension, it is "unnatural for sheep to have wool. The wild ancestors of modern sheep breeds (Mouflon, Urial, and Argali) all had (have) long coarse hair, covering their short, downy undercoat, which under domestication became wool. Sheep tails also became longer and thicker as a result of selection." http://www.sheepandgoat.com/articles/hairsheepprodmktg.html. Animal Welfare Institute has a husbandry standards program with specific standards for farms under the program with respect to rearing of sheep. The aims of our program are not to create legislation but to provide standards that apply to a somewhat more exclusive number of farmers who want to market to niches that value their specific, high welfare methods and philosophies of operation. For farmers who do not want to or cannot comply with the standards we set, there are other available certification programs. Our aim is to provide husbandry standards that are based on the natural, biological and behavioral characteristics of animals. They include a basic requirement for sound genetics that contribute to the animals' ability to cope with and thrive in their environments. For example, "herd genetics must be selected for both hybrid vigor and the animals' adaptation to the climate and pasture environment on the farm" and "no animal shall be bred for any characteristic that endangers the health or well-being of the animal or his/her offspring" and "conservation or development of breeds or strains (within breeds) that promotes hybrid vigor, improves grazing ability, and avoids animal welfare problems is encouraged under this program." Our husbandry program has prohibited the docking of sheep's tails (as well as pigs' tails and cows' tails) and, together with the requirements regarding genetics above (which tend to favor hair sheep, or short tailed breeds, such as Norwegian or Icelandic sheep), has pretty much excluded from our program farmers who raise breeds/strains of sheep for which tail docking would be required for good welfare. We have been challenged on this aspect of our sheep husbandry standards by a few producers who want to be covered by our program but do not want to change their genetics and feel that tail docking is a requirement in order that their sheep have good welfare (by avoiding fly strike). Our questions to the list are: Are there ways to help lambs of breeds that do not meet the genetic standard above thrive without mutilations? To what extent has the raising of various breeds of sheep in regions of the world where they may not be native or for more exotic wools or fiber created welfare problems from fly-strike that in turn necessitate tail docking? Would it, to any extent, promote overall sheep well-being if, by continuing to hold to our no-tail docking standard, farmers were encouraged to breed sheep who could thrive without being tail docked? We will have to make our own decision on this, of course, but input from the list would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance for your assistance. Marlene Halverson See what's new at AOL.com and Make AOL Your Homepage. Subject: Introducing myself From: juliajoe Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 14:03:42 -0300 To: applied-ethology HI MY NAME IS JULIANA AND I'M FROM BRAZIL. I SPEAK PORTUGUESE AD FOR THAT SORRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH... I 'M A BIOLOGY STUDANT AND I ITERESTED IN BEHAVIOUR OF DOMESTIC CAT . I ALREADY HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCHES WITH CATS LIKE: USE OF SPACE BY CAPTIVE MALE DOMESTIC CATS INTACT AND CASTRATED, ACTIVITY LEVEL BY THESE CATS SUBMITED TO ENVIRONMENTAL ENRICHMENT, Behavioral repertoire of castrated and intact domestic cats ) introduced in different social groups, ETC. I´M FINISHING MY GRADUATION AND HAVE LOTS OF DOUBTS. i WOLD LIKE TO DISCUSSE HOW WE CAN CONVINCE THE OTHERS THAT OUR WORK (I MY SITUATION, BEHAVIOUR OF DOMESTIC CATS ) IS IMPORTANT AND RELEVANT. iN BRAZIL IT IS VERY DIFFICULT. iF WE DON'T WORK WITH WILD ANIMALS, HEALTH AND GENETIC , NOBODY CONSIDER THE RESEARCH, SPECIALY WHEN YOU ARE A BIOLOGIST STUDDYING THEMES OF VETERINARIAN DOCTORS. THANK YOU , JULIANA CLEMENTE MACHADO JULIAJOE@TERRA.COM.BR BRAZIL Subject: Re: Introducing myself From: Zen Trainer Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 13:33:24 -0500 To: juliajoe CC: Ethics List Hi Juliana! Your English is much better than my Portuguese!! You ask a very good question. How can we convince others that the study of animals in and of itself is important? Right now it's only important if it helps humans. As with everything the answer is "follow the money". So we have to find out who would be willing to pay for research into the knowledge of animal behavior - with no other goal except to be able to understand animal behavior. I don't have an answer for that but it is a very good question worthy of discussion. Best, Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org ----- Original Message ----- From: juliajoe To: applied-ethology Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 12:03 PM Subject: Introducing myself HI MY NAME IS JULIANA AND I'M FROM BRAZIL. I SPEAK PORTUGUESE AD FOR THAT SORRY FOR MY BAD ENGLISH... I 'M A BIOLOGY STUDANT AND I ITERESTED IN BEHAVIOUR OF DOMESTIC CAT . I ALREADY HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCHES WITH CATS LIKE: USE OF SPACE BY CAPTIVE MALE DOMESTIC CATS INTACT AND CASTRATED, ACTIVITY LEVEL BY THESE CATS SUBMITED TO ENVIRONMENTAL ENRICHMENT, Behavioral repertoire of castrated and intact domestic cats ) introduced in different social groups, ETC. I´M FINISHING MY GRADUATION AND HAVE LOTS OF DOUBTS. i WOLD LIKE TO DISCUSSE HOW WE CAN CONVINCE THE OTHERS THAT OUR WORK (I MY SITUATION, BEHAVIOUR OF DOMESTIC CATS ) IS IMPORTANT AND RELEVANT. iN BRAZIL IT IS VERY DIFFICULT. iF WE DON'T WORK WITH WILD ANIMALS, HEALTH AND GENETIC , NOBODY CONSIDER THE RESEARCH, SPECIALY WHEN YOU ARE A BIOLOGIST STUDDYING THEMES OF VETERINARIAN DOCTORS. THANK YOU , JULIANA CLEMENTE MACHADO JULIAJOE@TERRA.COM.BR BRAZIL Subject: Why should we study animals? Re: Introducing myself From: Anna Olsson Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 21:23:39 +0100 To: juliajoe CC: applied-ethology Dear Juliana, Your question is very pertinent. The less the society around us take the importance and the moral status of animals for granted, the more we have to invest in elaborating a strategy for defending and justifying our work. I would like to give a few reflections from my own perspective, and I'll do it in English for the entire list. Please feel free to write to me directly if there's anything you prefer to discuss in Portuguese. It's impossible to deny that humans give priority to humans, and that is - to a more or less pronounced extent - the situation in all modern societies. Humans eat meat and other animal products, humans use medicines tested on animals and developed with the help of experimental animals. Therefore, even among humans that don't think that animals themselves matter at all, there is concern at least for the health and proper biological functioning of agricultural and research animals. There is an interest in knowing how to make these animals grow and stay healthy for our purpose. Over the last decades, humans have also come to realize the importance of nature and biodiversity, and started to worry that our activities in nature may threaten other species - so there's a human-interest reason to learn more about wild animals. But an increasing number of humans also think that animals and their welfare matters in itself. This kind of concern usually start with the animals that are closer to ourselves: most people are more concerned with the welfare of their companion animals than with the welfare of farm or laboratory animals. Of course, the more we know about domestic cats, the better we will be able to think up ways of living together with them that is good for us and good for them. And this is not only the case with cats that have a home in somebody's house, but also the cats that live in the street. I don't know how this is in Brazil, and in the town where you live, but here in Portugal there are street cats in any town - and in every neighbourhood there are also people that care about these cats and feed them. It is true that the number of cats can also be a nuisance, that their number may need to be controlled, and that some even think they should be killed. But I do think that most people - some more strongly than others - think that if the number of cats is to be controlled, it is best if that can be done in a way that causes as little harm and suffering to the cats as possible. Again, we need to know how cats live and reproduce to be able to think of good and "humane" ways of controlling their reproduction. This is just a brief attempt to give a justification for the kind of research you refer to. I've done it mainly from an anthropocentric perspective, and that is on purpose. I do believe that animals matter because they are sentient beings just as we are, and their happiness/pleasure/pain/suffering is as important to them as ours is to us. But when you argue with people who don't necessarily share that view, you will have to argue from their viewpoint, and if you work and argue in a very anthropocentric culture, that is where you have to start. This doesn't mean that one couldn't challenge the anthropocentric thinking, whenever one is in a situation where that is likely to find some resonance. It is useful to read about different standpoints in animal ethics. I have a couple of basic texts in Portuguese which I can send you if you are interested. Best regards, Anna Olsson -- Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Laboratory Animal Science Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Quoting juliajoe : > > HI > > MY NAME IS JULIANA AND I'M FROM BRAZIL. I SPEAK PORTUGUESE AD FOR THAT SORRY > > FOR MY BAD ENGLISH... > > > > I 'M A BIOLOGY STUDANT AND I ITERESTED IN BEHAVIOUR OF DOMESTIC CAT . I > > ALREADY HAVE DONE SOME RESEARCHES WITH CATS LIKE: USE OF SPACE BY CAPTIVE > > MALE DOMESTIC CATS INTACT AND CASTRATED, ACTIVITY LEVEL BY THESE CATS > > SUBMITED TO ENVIRONMENTAL ENRICHMENT, Behavioral repertoire of castrated and > > intact domestic cats ) introduced in different social groups, ETC. > > > > I´M FINISHING MY GRADUATION AND HAVE LOTS OF DOUBTS. i WOLD LIKE TO DISCUSSE > > HOW WE CAN CONVINCE THE OTHERS THAT OUR WORK (I MY SITUATION, BEHAVIOUR OF > > DOMESTIC CATS ) IS IMPORTANT AND RELEVANT. iN BRAZIL IT IS VERY DIFFICULT. iF > > WE DON'T WORK WITH WILD ANIMALS, HEALTH AND GENETIC , NOBODY CONSIDER THE > > RESEARCH, SPECIALY WHEN YOU ARE A BIOLOGIST STUDDYING THEMES OF VETERINARIAN > > DOCTORS. > > > > THANK YOU , > > > > JULIANA CLEMENTE MACHADO > > JULIAJOE@TERRA.COM.BR > > BRAZIL > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- This message was sent using IMP, the Internet Messaging Program. Subject: Re: Ban Live Bait Dog Training From: "E. Wayne Johnson" Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 19:08:45 -0500 To: Cecilia Lambert CC: Elise Able , Donna Ackerman , Jessica Addams , Darryl Addington , Dixie/Dennise Amazon , Walter Amos , Angel , Angie , applied-ethology@usask.ca, Nancy Arterburn , Vanessa Austin , Steve Austin <6mil@sbcglobal.net>, Peggy Bachman , Leif Baierl , Brian Bailey , Heather Baker , banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com, Kaye Bauer , beatnikbanditle@aol.com I read the attachment. The author appears to have confused the opinions of the "general public" with those opinions propounded by a shrill-voiced minority. Since the trappers and hunters do serve the general public with a useful purpose in the control of coyotes, deer, and other vermin, we should be wary of excessive interference from the government, no matter how much goading there is from the vocal and unfortunately oft well-funded quasi-lunatic fringe. Cecilia Lambert wrote: > Whoops Forgot the attachment on my last e-mail > > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.coyoterescue.org > Please visit our gift shop @ > www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue Subject: Re: Introducing myself From: vanner Date: Sun, 14 Oct 2007 23:09:53 -0300 To: juliajoe , applied-ethology Dear Juliana I had have lot of doubts before and after my graduation in veterinary medicine. The stuffs in brazilian' med veterinary schools are "production animals" or "clinic-surgery of pets". Unfortunately there are 5% of vet schools with ethological approach. Cats are not so important for our society. The reasons for that are unclear and research is need on this matter. Care of cats is linked to capricious or exotism of some people, and I think that it has a long way to change these brazilian mentallity. I agree with you that a biological/ethological work with domestic cat is not easy in Brazil. I feel it is not so different in the most parts of the world. I had a student who finished a master thesis on "cat stress" recently. We didn't have financial support but she got a student fellowship. Now we are trying to publish the results. If you are interested to study in behavioral post-graduation program, please contact me: vanner@unb.br. I could contacting my colleagues to help you. In general, ethologists-vets are open-mind to work with biologists in Brazil. Don't worry about. Best wishes, Vanner Subject: RE: Ban Live Bait Dog Training From: Rick Bogle Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 06:16:05 -0500 To: "E. Wayne Johnson" , Cecilia Lambert CC: Elise Able , Donna Ackerman , Jessica Addams , Darryl Addington , Dixie/Dennise Amazon , Walter Amos , Angel , Angie , applied-ethology@usask.ca, Nancy Arterburn , Vanessa Austin , Steve Austin <6mil@sbcglobal.net>, Peggy Bachman , Leif Baierl , Brian Bailey , Heather Baker , banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com, Kaye Bauer , beatnikbanditle@aol.com E. Wayne seems to feel his own ability to devine public opinion superior to others. This member of the public is appalled at the idea of training dogs by allowing them to chase down captured wild animals. Rick Bogle Madison, WI > > -----Original Message----- > > From: E. Wayne Johnson [mailto:ewj@insightbb.com] > > Sent: Sunday, October 14, 2007 7:09 PM > > To: Cecilia Lambert > > Cc: Elise Able; Donna Ackerman; Jessica Addams; Darryl Addington; > > Dixie/Dennise Amazon; Walter Amos; Angel; Angie; > > applied-ethology@usask.ca; Nancy Arterburn; Vanessa Austin; Steve > > Austin; Peggy Bachman; Leif Baierl; Brian Bailey; Heather Baker; > > banlivebaitdogtraining@yahoo.com; Kaye Bauer; beatnikbanditle@aol.com > > Subject: Re: Ban Live Bait Dog Training > > > > > > I read the attachment. > > > > The author appears to have confused the opinions of the > > "general public" with those opinions propounded by > > a shrill-voiced minority. > > > > Since the trappers and hunters do serve the general public with a useful > > purpose in the control > > of coyotes, deer, and other vermin, we should be wary of excessive > > interference from the government, > > no matter how much goading there is from the vocal and unfortunately > > oft well-funded quasi-lunatic fringe. > > > > Cecilia Lambert wrote: >> > > Whoops Forgot the attachment on my last e-mail >> > > >> > > CeAnn Lambert >> > > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center >> > > www.coyoterescue.org >> > > Please visit our gift shop @ >> > > www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue > > Subject: Anna Olsson From: juliajoe Date: Mon, 15 Oct 2007 11:00:12 -0300 To: applied-ethology Dear Anna, Thank you very much for your answer. I really feel better after reading your e-mail. Sincerely. I’m very interested in the texts that you commented. If you can, send me? You can continue to write in English for me, ok ? J I have done this question because I'm finishing my graduate and ask myself: Why are you studying cats if probably you will don't have how to work with them after university? But I feel very concerned with welfare of this and every animals, and ask for me : Because I have to live the present and the present now is the research of this cats, which is important for me, no matter what the others think. Is difficult to maintain this think all time... Sometimes you think that you have to concern about your future and for that, in this situation, abandon these researches and start to study themes more important by the view of the others... Thank you very, very much for your e-mail. Juliana Clemente Machado juliajoe@terra.com.br p.s: I attempt to send this messege for your e-mail and did't get.