Subject: Cocker Rage? From: Randi Helene Tillung Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 09:48:51 +0200 To: 'ethology' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Dear everyone! In a few days I will be seeing a case of a very young cocker bitch (5 months) who has recently started displaying ferocious aggression to the households youngest daughter (7 years). Mostly during evenings while dozing at a designated place. She has usually growled and snarled, but two times she has attacked the girl (lunging, no biting) without showing enough warning signs for the family to react. The family have attended our puppy courses – spent a lot of time socializing the dog really well, trained her without coercion and made sure the dog is never harassed by children. The parents are themselves trained in behavioral science, and their professional work is helping people with children with behavior problems. They understand advice they are given very well. I have followed them on their way and seen the dog several times. She is growing more uncertain to strange people now, but as a very young puppy she was playful, doing the normal puppy biting and I found her outgoing and happy. No known health issues, but I will advice them to see a vet. What should I ask the vet to look into? I feel they have really been compliant to the good advice they have been given, so I feel a bit at loss at how to help them. Please, could you point me to resources that could help me look in the right direction? Thank you!! Regards, Randi Helene Tillung M.Sc in Ethology Fjellanger Dog Training Academy Tlf: +47 56 30 02 79 (office) Tlf: +47 930 42 559 (cell) E-mail: randihelene@fjellanger.net Web: www.fjellanger.net Subject: Re: Cocker Rage? From: Margory Cohen Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 05:27:46 -0700 To: 'ethology' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Too much to respond to in email. But frankly - 5 months is not 'cocker rage' -- This is a puppy. There is one contradiction after another in your post. The dog is not harrassed by children yet when the dog is dozing, the dog reacts. A 5 month old puppy is not a trained dog. A 7 year old child should be taught not to wake a sleeping dog - when you write the dog is dozing and reacts when obviously disturbed -- This is a puppy. Not a child. You asked for comment back - so that's what I'm sending. Don't use those words. "Cocker rage" -- meaningless. Shifts too much on a young pup instead of people failure. If the breeder is nearby, they should work with the breeder and find a better a trainer - maybe that's you? They need to step back from their own expectations and perhaps if they want a dog, take on a dog who is older and already solid in foundation that they can't mess up too much. That's where the breeder comes in. Sometimes all that professional experience clouds better thinking and basic dog common sense, don't you sometimes find? It doesn't carry over from people to dogs quite so plainly. It just doesn't. This is not high psychology. At 5 months what you write about a dog who is going thru a natural period of uncertainty where there isn't trust -- the pup sounds to be having a hard time. Cocker Spaniels used to be really lovely compliant dogs. I don't know that that's so anymore but the shift in breed isn't helped by people not knowing what they're doing generally and with seemingly excitable dogs in particular. -Margory Cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: Randi Helene Tillung To: 'ethology' ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 12:48 AM Subject: Cocker Rage? Dear everyone! In a few days I will be seeing a case of a very young cocker bitch (5 months) who has recently started displaying ferocious aggression to the households youngest daughter (7 years). Mostly during evenings while dozing at a designated place. She has usually growled and snarled, but two times she has attacked the girl (lunging, no biting) without showing enough warning signs for the family to react. The family have attended our puppy courses – spent a lot of time socializing the dog really well, trained her without coercion and made sure the dog is never harassed by children. The parents are themselves trained in behavioral science, and their professional work is helping people with children with behavior problems. They understand advice they are given very well. I have followed them on their way and seen the dog several times. She is growing more uncertain to strange people now, but as a very young puppy she was playful, doing the normal puppy biting and I found her outgoing and happy. No known health issues, but I will advice them to see a vet. What should I ask the vet to look into? I feel they have really been compliant to the good advice they have been given, so I feel a bit at loss at how to help them. Please, could you point me to resources that could help me look in the right direction? Thank you!! Regards, Randi Helene Tillung M.Sc in Ethology Fjellanger Dog Training Academy Tlf: +47 56 30 02 79 (office) Tlf: +47 930 42 559 (cell) E-mail: randihelene@fjellanger.net Web: www.fjellanger.net Subject: Re: Cocker Rage? From: Vicky Villalta Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 16:16:01 +0200 To: Margory Cohen CC: 'ethology' , Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca http://www.eurolupa.org/project/55.html Check with the norwegian team... Good luck! > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Randi Helene Tillung > To: 'ethology' ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 12:48 AM > Subject: Cocker Rage? > > Dear everyone! > > In a few days I will be seeing a case of a very young cocker bitch (5 months) who has recently started displaying ferocious aggression to the households youngest daughter (7 years). Mostly during evenings while dozing at a designated place. She has usually growled and snarled, but two times she has attacked the girl (lunging, no biting) without showing enough warning signs for the family to react. > > The family have attended our puppy courses – spent a lot of time socializing the dog really well, trained her without coercion and made sure the dog is never harassed by children. The parents are themselves trained in behavioral science, and their professional work is helping people with children with behavior problems. They understand advice they are given very well. I have followed them on their way and seen the dog several times. She is growing more uncertain to strange people now, but as a very young puppy she was playful, doing the normal puppy biting and I found her outgoing and happy. No known health issues, but I will advice them to see a vet. What should I ask the vet to look into? > > I feel they have really been compliant to the good advice they have been given, so I feel a bit at loss at how to help them. > > Please, could you point me to resources that could help me look in the right direction? Thank you!! > > > Regards, > > > Randi Helene Tillung > M.Sc in Ethology > Fjellanger Dog Training Academy > > Tlf: +47 56 30 02 79 (office) > Tlf: +47 930 42 559 (cell) > E-mail: randihelene@fjellanger.net > Web: www.fjellanger.net > > Subject: Re: Cocker Rage? From: Kayce Cover Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 10:45:49 -0400 (EDT) To: Randi Helene Tillung CC: 'ethology' Hi, I can offer a post hoc explanation of what may be happening in these cases: hyperarousal states can be intrinsically rewarding and beings will use contexts to recreate hyperaroused states, in order to 'self-medicate'. By teaching the animal to recognize the first signs of arousal and choose to relax instead, they can quickly learn to manage their own emotions, in the face of challenge. It does not seem to matter what kind of emotion is involved - fear, arousal, agression, hyperexcitability, hyperactivity - if the problem is emotional in nature, the animals can usually make huge progress in five days. We are regularly turning around dogs where euthanasia has been recommended by others. I was recently (August) in Norway, giving seminars in this (Darbu) and there is a trainer in Darbu who is working toward certification in this technique. Her email: nina@hundifokus.no. I will return to Norway next August and Nina is the contact person for that seminar, if you are interested in taking a look for yourself. We had over 30 dogs at the last seminar, many of whom had very difficult problems, many related to arousal and aggression. I will be posting some video as soon as I get time. Of the cases that were not resolved by other methods attempted, we have been able to successfully resolve all but about 3%. Also, the method incorporates safety buffers, to be sure all are safe while working. Regards, Kayce Kayce Cover MSEd, BS An Sci, CABC IAABC Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com http://www.facebook.com/kayce.cover http://www.twitter.com/KayceCover http://www.youtube.com/seraphicsynergism PO Box 8788, Norfolk, VA 23503-0788 001 757 609 5066 SATS/Bridge and Target: http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/bridgeandtarget2 Trainest (newbies): http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/trainest > > Dear everyone! > > > > > > > > In a few days I will be seeing a case of a very young cocker bitch (5 > > months) who has recently started displaying ferocious aggression to > > the > > households youngest daughter (7 years). Mostly during evenings while > > dozing > > at a designated place. She has usually growled and snarled, but two > > times > > she has attacked the girl (lunging, no biting) without showing enough > > warning signs for the family to react. > > > > > > > > The family have attended our puppy courses - spent a lot of time > > socializing > > the dog really well, trained her without coercion and made sure the > > dog is > > never harassed by children. The parents are themselves trained in > > behavioral > > science, and their professional work is helping people with children > > with > > behavior problems. They understand advice they are given very well. I > > have > > followed them on their way and seen the dog several times. She is > > growing > > more uncertain to strange people now, but as a very young puppy she > > was > > playful, doing the normal puppy biting and I found her outgoing and > > happy. > > No known health issues, but I will advice them to see a vet. What > > should I > > ask the vet to look into? > > > > > > > > I feel they have really been compliant to the good advice they have > > been > > given, so I feel a bit at loss at how to help them. > > > > > > > > Please, could you point me to resources that could help me look in the > > right > > direction? Thank you!! > > Subject: RE: Cocker Rage? From: Virginia Bowen Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 12:43:13 -0500 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca I'm not an expert, but a student (ongoing) of canine and equine behavior and welfare. I just wanted to add my 2 cents - or maybe 1 cent - worth. First, I want to say I've used some of Kayce's methods (I bought your booklet a few years back) and am very impressed with all that her methods can achieve. It seems to me that her methods are worthwhile regardless of any external causes of a situation, because (in my observations) BOTH the animal and their human caregivers begin to relax when they learn these self-relaxing techniques. I believe for the animal it often gives them the feeling of having choice where they may not otherwise feel any control over their own lives, and in reading I've done on equine behavior, choice appears to be a VERY important factor in good welfare. But back to the dog. Earlier this year, I was again training dogs after many years absence from it (I've since quit again for health and financial reasons). I had many cases of fearful dogs displaying protective behaviors that look like aggression, so I started reading up some more on what we've learned about canine behaviors. I read that somewhere around 4-12 months old dogs go through a second fear imprinting period. If this dog began to be fearful, and the humans overreacted, it could have quickly escalated for the dog and I think it is very important for someone to get a good grip on what's going on in the household, otherwise the dog may wind up fear biting as an adult. I do agree with Margory's post. This dog is still a pup - and potentially in or just past a very important stage that, if handled improperly (i.e., treated as if she were an adult and were not in this very important behavioral stage) can be disastrous in its results. That would be when Kayce's methods would be necessity, not just choice. I have a brother who is a doctoral psychologist, as is his wife. They do not translate what they know very well to their dog, I must say. I recently heard a story from a sister about something that happened with the dog and I cringed. They did *everything* wrong in the situation. Dogs aren't people, and they don't think like us. So, like Margory, I worry that perhaps these people are overthinking the situation or missing something that to dog behaviorists would be obvious. I hope you are able to help out. Please let us know. Virginia Bowen Spicewood, TX P.S. - In a quick Google search I did find some references to this period, but I didn't like the advice being given on any of those sites (not to pet the dog when he/she is fearful...I totally disagree with that. Comfort is a good thing.) I'm pretty sure I read some of this in a Patricia McConnell booklet and also in some Ian Dunbar stuff. -----Original Message----- From: Kayce Cover [mailto:kc@synalia.com] Sent: Monday, October 05, 2009 9:46 AM To: Randi Helene Tillung Cc: 'ethology' Subject: Re: Cocker Rage? Hi, I can offer a post hoc explanation of what may be happening in these cases: hyperarousal states can be intrinsically rewarding and beings will use contexts to recreate hyperaroused states, in order to 'self-medicate'. By teaching the animal to recognize the first signs of arousal and choose to relax instead, they can quickly learn to manage their own emotions, in the face of challenge. It does not seem to matter what kind of emotion is involved - fear, arousal, agression, hyperexcitability, hyperactivity - if the problem is emotional in nature, the animals can usually make huge progress in five days. Subject: Fwd: Positive image on dairy cow research From: Stanley Curtis Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 15:26:09 -0500 (CDT) To: applied-ethology network Subject: Positive image on dairy cow research From: "Dave Sjeklocha" Date: Mon, 5 Oct 2009 09:15:54 -0500 To: Stan Curtis http://www.discover.umn.edu/featuredDiscoveries/ads/cashCows.php This links to a Univ. Of Minnesota commercial that describes research on cow comfort. I got this from another list serve I am on. My understanding is that it was played over the weekend during Minnesota football game. David Sjeklocha, DVM Haskell County Animal Hospital POB 876 Sublette, KS 67877 drdave@wbsnet.org (620) 675-8180 Subject: Looking for Recent Theory on Displays From: kmorgan Date: Mon, 05 Oct 2009 18:00:22 -0400 To: applied-ethology@usask.ca Hi there, I have a colleague who is trying to find some good overview articles regarding contemporary views on displays and display behavior, particularly as it pertains to sex. He is also interested in historical references to this concept. Any suggestions, please send them to me off line. And thanks! --Kathy Morgan Wheaton College Norton, MA 02766 U.S.A. kmorgan@wheatonma.edu