From: IN%"serpell@vet.upenn.edu" "James Serpell" 30-SEP-1999 13:35:37.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Scientific bias & Rupert Sheldrake Mike, You wrote: >Are you really suggesting, James, that we should reject the work of >everyone who formulates a hypothesis (or develops a theory) and then does >further investigations? Obviously not. Hypothesis testing is part of what science is about. But I do believe it is odd and perhaps irresponsible to pursue evidence to support an extremely eccentric theory of the universe, while at the same time systematically ignoring or denigrating the vast array of evidence that supports mainstream scientific opinion. I also think it is inappropriate to play to the gallery of 'anti-scientism' in the way that Rupert does in his books. >Personally I suspect that the totally impartial paper has yet to be written, >and would like to see the standard scientific paper format (Introduction, >Methods, Results, etc) extended to include a "background & subjective bias" >section, which could include things like : > >"We did this work because we wanted to be involved in this subject area and >thought the topic would attract funding" > >"The results are pretty dubious/useless, but we need to generate X >publications per year" Ah, such cynicism! Sure, there are biases in science, as in any field of human endeavour. But science is ultimately doomed and discredited unless it upholds the "ideal" of impartiality, even if it is unable to match this ideal all of the time. >James, do I detect an "inherent bias" against spiritual connections in >science? No prizes for that. Even the phrase "spiritual connections in science" fills me with dismay. As far as I am concerned, science and spirituality have nothing to do with each other. Certainly, the record of history suggests that they can only coexist amicably when kept strictly apart. >Steven Shapin's book draws attention to the close relationships that have >existed at times in the past between religion and science. In fact, >complete divorce of science from religion may be a quite recent (20th >century) phenomenon. A fact that probably helps to explain the extraordinary progress in science during this century. James ___________________________________________________________________ Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society, Dept. of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Tel: (215) 898-1004 3900 Delancey Street, Fax: (215) 573-6050 Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010, USA serpell@vet.upenn.edu http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/ From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 30-SEP-1999 15:10:34.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Scientific bias & Rupert Sheldrake >>> "Michael Meredith" 09/29 2:02 pm >>> I = genuinely believed that everyone would have come across the examples of = the scientific establishment rejecting people's work because it flew in = the face of current dogma.>>> I am not aware of a single example (although no doubt someone=20 will suggest some). A dogma is "a belief held by an authority which others are expected to accept without arguement" (OED). The=20 religious belief that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same=20 entity is a dogma. People are expected to believe this without=20 evidence or arguement. Theories that propose that they are three=20 separate entities are rejected solely because they conflict with this=20 dogma. Nothing like this exists in present science. I cannot think=20 of a single "belief" in science that people are expected to accept=20 WITHOUT ARGUEMENT. Much of the scepticism surrounding telepathy comes from the fact that it seems to require a major change in our understanding of=20 the physical universe. The present theories of the universe, such=20 as quantum electrodynamics, are not a dogma. They are=20 accepted because they have been tested many times and have=20 been supported. The burden of proof has to be on=20 the people who wish to reject these theories. But this is not=20 "rejecting them because they fly in the face of dogma". The second source of scepticism arises from the fact that,=20 despite the fair amount of research in paranormal phenomena,=20 noone has yet come up with a single convincing case, which can be replicated, which is not due to trickery, and which is not due to poor experimental controls.=20 Scientists do not reject telepathy because of dogma, but=20 because there are very good reasons to think that it does not=20 exist. Jeff Rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 30-SEP-1999 16:18:43.98 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Scientific bias & Rupert Sheldrake On Thu, 30 Sep 1999 17:05:03 -0400 Jeff Rushen writes: > >>> "Michael Meredith" 09/29 2:02 pm >>> I > genuinely believed that everyone would have come across the examples > of the scientific establishment rejecting people's work because it > flew in the face of current dogma.>>> > > I am not aware of a single example (although no doubt someone > will suggest some). A dogma is "a belief held by an authority which > others are expected to accept without argument" (OED). The > religious belief that God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are the same > entity is a dogma. People are expected to believe this without > evidence or argument. Theories that propose that they are three > separate entities are rejected solely because they conflict with > this > dogma. Nothing like this exists in present science. I cannot think > of a single "belief" in science that people are expected to accept > WITHOUT ARGUMENT. > > Scientists do not reject telepathy because of dogma, but > because there are very good reasons to think that it does not > exist. > > Jeff Rushen Agreed . . . . ideally. However, on a practical basis it seems that too often only those with heavy credentials and reputation are ALLOWED to argue. Here is an experience that I had with arguing: Many years ago I wrote up a case report and submitted it to the AVMA Journal. I took the time to write it up because it was unusual and, to a degree, went against the current professional wisdom. It was viciously (IMO) rejected not on the basis of the info in the report, but on the basis that I personally had probably made some very fundamental and foolish professional errors. I knew I had not made such errors, but, as a busy practitioner, I had no time to deal with this perceived gross unfairness. My perception was that if this editor was willing to be so insulting to a practicing professional then I was very unlikely to have a chance to reverse his decision; so I never even answered the rejection. I suspect that had I been active at the academic level and/or had developed a reputation in the field (parasitology in this case), my report would not have suffered this ad hominem rejection. DBC From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-SEP-1999 17:21:01.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Science and Unverifyable stuff I find myself in competition with a homeopathic chemist and a least one homeopathic veterinary surgeon. I think they buy in their nosodes although it is easy to make them. Apparently after diluting the similitudinous substance until there are no molecules of it in the water the classic activation (succussation) is to knock the bottle smartly 60 times against a large book. After some interesting encounters with heart cases and epileptic dogs and a couple of fatalities I am close to striking her about the head 60 times with each and every one of the books she apparently never read! But that is not why I write. I rang the chemist today and asked if in his 35 years of homeopathic dispensing he had ever experienced or heard of any recall of a homeopathic product or any mishap with manufacture or container. He says he has never heard of such a thing. This leaves me wondering why the entire world of space and aeronautical engineering and every other industry or endeavour on the planet has not invaded the nosode manufacturers to discover the secret of this technical infallibility and whence the faultless superhumans came who administer this miracle. Just a thought. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-SEP-1999 17:36:59.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Science and Unverifyable stuff I find myself in competition with a homeopathic chemist and a least one homeopathic veterinary surgeon. I think they buy in their nosodes although it is easy to make them. Apparently after diluting the similitudinous substance until there are no molecules of it in the water the classic activation (succussation) is to knock the bottle smartly 60 times against a large book. After some interesting encounters with heart cases and epileptic dogs and a couple of fatalities I am close to striking her about the head 60 times with each and every one of the books she apparently never read! But that is not why I write. I rang the chemist today and asked if in his 35 years of homeopathic dispensing he had ever experienced or heard of any recall of a homeopathic product or any mishap with manufacture or container. He says he has never heard of such a thing. This leaves me wondering why the entire world of space and aeronautical engineering and every other industry or endeavour on the planet has not invaded the nosode manufacturers to discover the secret of this technical infallibility and whence the faultless superhumans came who administer this miracle. Just a thought. "Laughter is the best medicine! If however you have diabetes it is definitely insulin" Reader's Digest Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell" 30-SEP-1999 19:54:10.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: JIR Hi All Great discussion re, science. Can someone tell me if the Journal of Irreproducible Results is still published? My subscription lapsed several years ago with the issue that investigated the mysterious matings among the side-hill gougers of the Olympic penninsula. Speaking of hard-to-believe, unscientifically measurable phenomena, anyone with allergies might be interested in looking at the testimonials at http://allergy-naet.com Especially interesting is the one from David Minkoff, MD, in So. Cal., who intends to publish a paper of his clinical results. I wish him luck; because two treatments [with at least ten more to go] have almost doubled my extrinsically asthmatic lung capacity, as measured on a peak flow meter. :-) Bill Campbell P.O. Box 1658 Grants Pass, OR 97528 http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 1-OCT-1999 00:07:08.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: My Cure's better than your Cure! Great web site Bill/ Loved the child who has an emotional blockage to being told what to do! I was cured again last night. I walked slowly from my car wheezing and stopping and asking my associate Karen to walk "a little more slowly". Then I sat for two hours listening to the Poozies a gorgeous all girl riot of laughter, beauty, harps, accordions, rude ballads and celebration of life and the daftness of Gaelic lyrics. I drummed my, fingers and my feet, hooted, clapped and strode back to the car effortlessly. The Brain is the best stocked pharmacy and its URLs are without number. Have you noticed how often it rains on or within two days either side of Wednesday? The problem with the PR of Cures is that only success is trumpeted. There is no market for the failures of Unorthodoxy. This is because the universal response is "well what did you expect?" I started a survey of my clients in 1984 along the lines of asking if they had had homeopathic advice or tried such remedies for their pets. I soon gave up. Around 50% seemed to have tried something and it began to look like 1% had thought it worked. To pursue "witches" you have to be as cruel and weird as any "witch finder" If I were a Roman senator I could would buy exotic flautists and dancers from the best slave upmarket and install them in and around my thermal baths. What a "wheeze"? Robin I don't really want to tie folk to the stake of my scorn and heap the faggots of annoyance about their feet. Who could be so cruel as to heap faggots about anybody? Just imagine it. The smoke, the "screaming" and the ghastly frocks? I Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 1-OCT-1999 01:12:37.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" Subj: RE: JIR --- Bill Campbell wrote: > Can someone tell me if the Journal of Irreproducible > Results is still published? > Dear Bill et al., Who needs JIR, now that we have the NET? And speaking of the WWW, science, scientific method, dogs, animal handling, stress, and Temple Grandin - could someone maybe explain to me the purpose of the article at: http://www.scn.org/~bk269/fear.html The article is entitled "Animal Stress Results in Meat Causing Disease," and I have copied below a couple of statements: "Stress, fear and pain when animals are being slaughtered or waiting to be slaughtered results in several disease processes in the humans which eat the meat. Most notable are cardiac problems, impotency and general fatigue. These adverse effects are most directly associated with consumption of dog meat." "Fear in animals during slaughter causes dramatic reduction of vitality and sexual potency in humans who eat the meat. Fortunately, humans have evolved to mainly eat animals which can be slaughtered with a minimum of stress. Consumption of emotional animals such as dogs is limited to a few primative societies. Therefore it is unlikely that dramatic reductions in health occurs as a result of slaughtering techniques." Now, some on this Applied Ethology group may question whether or not this article by Dr. Putzfoff of the Schmuckintush Lab should have been published, but I point out to you that he referenced highly creditable work including mine, Jeff Rushen's - not to mention 9 Temple Grandin references - and a host of others. With such a reference list, you gotta believe it. My serious question is, What the heck was the purpose in writing this article? Was it intended to be a spoof on science? On eating meat? Or was it written just for fun - and I, being trained to seek purpose and function, am lost in trying to find some rational explanation for this article and ... Ray Stricklin ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"budaev@irene.msk.ru" "Sergey Budaev" 1-OCT-1999 05:15:16.42 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISCP Meeting in Warsaw 2000 THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR COMPARATIVE PSYCHOLOGY announces its Tenth International Conference in July (19-21) 2000 in Warsaw The conference will take place at the University of Warsaw, located in downtown Warsaw, very close to the most important historical and political places in the city. The main campus is also the part of Warsaw Old Town. The conference center provides all facilities needed to organize symposia and plenary sessions. Accommodation. There are five hotels within walking distance of the conference venue: Holiday Inn, Mariot, Victoria, Bristol, and Europejski (European). Relatively cheaper accommodation at the University Hotel (Socrates) will also be available. Transportation - good bus connections for participants staying at other then recommended locations. Tours: both pre- and postconference tours are to be proposed. For participants planning to attend the XXVII International Congress of Psychology in Stockholm special travel assistance may be arranged. Weather: in July temperatures vary from 15 to 27 C *************** IMPORTANT! *************** To receive more details, registration and accommodation forms, please sent the message including name, position or title, mailing address (including e-mail) to: Wojciech Pisula Institute of Psychology Polish Academy of Sciences Podlesna 61 01-673 Warsaw POLAND Immediate response to this announcement via INTERNET will be also effective. Make sure however, that your message includes your full name and mailing address, and that you are responding to zpz@sci.psych.uw.edu.pl Once we register you on the mailing list, the calls for papers and symposia will be send directly to you. Let's meet in Warsaw !!! ********************************************* ISCP - Warsaw 2000 A.N. Severtsov Institute of Ecology and Evolution Russian Academy of Sciences Leninsky prospect, 33 Moscow 117071 Russia -------------------------------------------------- tel: (7 095) 952-40-17 fax: (7 095) 954-55-34 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 1-OCT-1999 05:16:35.75 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "'ws31@umail.umd.edu'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "billcamp@cdsnet.net" Subj: RE: More Meat Please A lady from PETA with an American accent called Toni Vanelli was on our local BBC radio yesterday. She was telling us that meat kills people and veg. doesn't. This is an interesting thesis that does seem to confront a great deal of well documented knowledge and archaeology of meat eating cultures. I think the epitome of slaughter methods is that described for the Plains Indians who ran herds of bison over cliffs and into ravines where they smashed into heaps to be slaughtered at leisure. The sickly meat eaters then butchered and heaved the result back up the cliffs. Three aboriginal Indians could heave an entire buffalo carcass out of a gully with astonishing ease. The military surgeons of the early and mid 19th century were amazed at the ability of such tribesmen to sustain and survive appalling wounds from modern weaponry such as would be routinely fatal to Europeans. This story can be replicated for the Zulu, the Masai, the Esquimaux and I will not detain you with the prodigious stamina of the Mongols. Drinking horse blood from the vein and eating meat tenderised under the saddle they rode a 100 miles a day and toppled India, China, Persia and most of Russia and Eastern Europe. God be praised they had not discovered veggie-burgers! I could reference all this and will if anyone asks (as you well know and probably won't for peace and quiet) Robin Anything else? -----Original Message----- From: W. Ray Stricklin [SMTP:ws31@umail.umd.edu] Sent: Friday, October 01, 1999 8:12 AM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Cc: billcamp@cdsnet.net Subject: Re: JIR "Stress, fear and pain when animals are being slaughtered or waiting to be slaughtered results in several disease processes in the humans which eat the meat. Most notable are cardiac problems, impotency and general fatigue. These adverse effects are most directly associated with consumption of dog meat." "Fear in animals during slaughter causes dramatic reduction of vitality and sexual potency in humans who eat the meat. Fortunately, humans have evolved to mainly eat animals which can be slaughtered with a minimum of stress. Consumption of emotional animals such as dogs is limited to a few primative societies. Therefore it is unlikely that dramatic reductions in health occurs as a result of slaughtering techniques." Now, some on this Applied Ethology group may question whether or not this article by Dr. Putzfoff of the Schmuckintush Lab should have been published, but I point out to you that he referenced highly creditable work including mine, Jeff Rushen's - not to mention 9 Temple Grandin references - and a host of others. With such a reference list, you gotta believe it. My serious question is, What the heck was the purpose in writing this article? Was it intended to be a spoof on science? On eating meat? Or was it written just for fun - and I, being trained to seek purpose and function, am lost in trying to find some rational explanation for this article and ... Ray Stricklin ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 1-OCT-1999 05:39:56.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: More Meat Please And what happened to the Mongols after they had toppled all these countries? Did they become vegetarians? Or did the Chinese, Persians, Russians, Eastern Europeans start eating meat? Or maybe they discovered spinach? ;-) Sorry, Robin, but I just couldn't resist. Hans From: IN%"filip.mulkens@agr.kuleuven.ac.be" 1-OCT-1999 06:02:56.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: ISCP Meeting in Warsaw 2000 "Sergey Budaev" Wrote: | | | THE INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR | COMPARATIVE PSYCHOLOGY | | announces its | | Tenth International Conference in | July (19-21) 2000 in Warsaw | | Dear Sergey Thank you for this Conference Announcement. How was the Conference in Bangalore, India? Do you know if there exists a website with the abstracts/proceedings of that Conference, and especially of the Symposium 'Personality and Individual Differences in Humans and (other) Animals'? The first article that I wrote about my pig study was rejected, and the second is still in review. As soon as it is accepted, I will send you a copy. Thank you very much in advance. Yours Sincerely. Filip Dr. F. Mulkens, DVM Laboratory for Quality Care in Animal Production, K.U.Leuven Bijzondere Weg 12, B-3360 Lovenjoel, Belgium Tel: +32-16-46 81 35 - Fax: +32-16-46 81 59 - E-mail: filip.mulkens@agr.kuleuven.ac.be From: IN%"Ksmuts@sarcc.co.za" "Kristene Smuts" 1-OCT-1999 06:42:15.34 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Science and Unverifyable stuff Hi All! I am coming out! (of lurker mode) >>The Brain is the best stocked pharmacy and its URLs are without number.>> and other thoughts I am an advocate of the natural way of healing / prevention for humans and = animals alike. I know this subject is an emotional one and may or may not = elicit many responses. The reason for my belief is simple : If it has = worked for 5000+ years and has been proven to have no adverse effects if = administered correctly, why should it suddenly NOT work? Antibiotics have = only been on the market for the last 40 years or so. Please, before you = all start replying to this, I also do believe there is a place for modern = medicine ALONGSIDE the natural way of doing things. Why has acupuncture worked for so many (thousands) years? Staunch = religious people (please, this is not with any disrespect, but merely my = personal observation) vehemently advocate against this and other natural = practices, calling it the work of the devil? Is it because it comes from = the East? Because it was practiced successfully long before Christianity = and other religions? Sorry, this is not about religion, so please forgive = me. What my point is, is that we should not have blinkers on and stick to the = normal way of thinking, that only the modern, scientific, verifiable = methods and medicines work. I for one would rather stick to what has been = tested for thousands of years as opposed to only 40 years. Now, onto the brain. Well, the most powerful computer in the universe has = not been credited with the ability to heal or destroy the body. I = personally have witnessed this when I was a youngster. Shortly (so as not = to waste any time or space) the husband had throat cancer and died when he = was in his fifties. His wife was the strong one in the relationship = (being Italian) and ruled the house. After his death, it took three = months and his widow lay beside him in the grave. I remember the family = puzzling over the cause of her death as the doctors could find nothing = wrong with her. In the three months she gradually wasted away - first her = kidneys failed, then her liver and finally her heart just stopped beating. = She wasn't ill, in the normal sense of the word, she didn't have any = disease, her heart was normally very strong. So, make of this what you = will. I assume everyone who has gone to any motivation seminars have heard the = story of the man on the boat that goes up to the fairly frail, pale = looking man and asks him if he can help as the frail one is looking = sickly, is he OK, can he help him to his cabin? Soon the frail one is = deathly ill. The same man goes up to the tanned, healthy sailor and asks = him the same question. The answer? "What do you mean? There is nothing = wrong with me. I am as healthy as an ox!" This just illustrates the = power of the brain to transmit thoughts of either well being or illness. = There are many more stories that I am sure people have heard and scoffed = at. Just because it cannot be measured with a machine and with scientific = methods, does not mean it doesn't work. Have a great one Kristene From: IN%"Simon.Gadbois@ns.sympatico.ca" "Simon Gadbois" 1-OCT-1999 06:57:59.23 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"ETHOLOGY@SEGATE.SUNET.SE" CC: IN%"fentress@is.dal.ca" Subj: (S-)VHS to CD transfers Hi, For over 25 years now Dr. John Fentress's laboratory at Dalhousie University has accumulated hundreds of VHS and S-VHS tapes of wolves. The laboratory is interested in transferring most of this archival data to CD's, as long as video analysis is still possible from the CD's themsleves. (n.b., understand that we are worried about video degradation over time, and that we are also aware that CD's are not for ever...) We are interested to know if anybody had any experience doing this and: 1. Was it worth the time and cost? 2. What software/hardware package was used to write and encode the files? 3. Related question: what format was used to encode (i.e., MPEG?)? 4. Analyses from the CD's: how and/or with what software/hardware? (we have been using The Observer Pro for a while now). Any comments or suggestions will be very appreciated, if possible, reply to Fentress & Gadbois directly thank you, S.G. -- Simon Gadbois Department of Psychology Fentress Ethology Lab Life Science Building Dalhousie University Nova Scotia, B3H 4J1 mailto:Simon.Gadbois@ns.sympatico.ca mailto:Simon@Gadbois.com http://Simon.Gadbois.com Box 53 Shad Bay, Nova Scotia B3T 2B8 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 1-OCT-1999 07:00:01.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: JIR At 06:53 PM 09/30/1999 -0700, Bill Campbell wrote: >Hi All > >Great discussion re, science. > >Can someone tell me if the Journal of Irreproducible Results is still >published? My subscription lapsed several years ago with the issue that >investigated the mysterious matings among the side-hill gougers of the >Olympic penninsula. Go to: http://www.jir.com/ Vivian another former subscriber, thinking of re upping..... Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"jgardner@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Jennifer Gardner" 1-OCT-1999 07:58:53.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) Livestock handling and stress I have enjoyed the interesting discussion about the biological background of techniques of livestock handling. The question whether such alternative methods would be less stressful for the animals than conventional methods is interesting. My question is: wouldn't we expect animals to be better adapted to cope with stressors of a type which they have evolved to deal with, than artificial stressors imposed upon them only when they are in the hands of humans? For instance, the everpresent risk of predators is something wild animals have to live with, and so I would expect that they can handle that fairly well. Restraint, on the other hand, would be encountered in nature only in very extreme situations (being caught by a predator), where it would be critical for survival to escape and so activation of major reactions would be expected. Besides being part of conventional handling techniques where animals are caught or herded into small paddocks, such restraint is in fact what many animals experience continuously in intensive housing systems... I would appreciate your comments on this! Best wishes Anna Anna Olsson Dept of Animal Environment and Health Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences P O Box 234 532 23 Skara, Sweden e-mail Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se Until October 1999 c/o Dr Ian Duncan Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1 Canada From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 1-OCT-1999 08:16:23.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"weiler@selway.umt.edu" Subj: Heifer question Please help my roommate field this question about cattle. It certainly sounds like folklore to me. As a sheep producer, I smile when I add a set of twin ewes to the flock. Is there a down side to twinning in cattle? Does it bring us back to the discussion of in utereo influences on gender? Thanks for any suggestions, Peggy >X-From_: weiler@selway.umt.edu Wed Sep 29 10:42:22 1999 >Date: Wed, 29 Sep 1999 10:43:44 -0600 (MDT) >From: Ann M Weiler >To: Peggy Shunick >Subject: Heifer question > >Peggy, >I had a man come into the library who raises a few cattle every year. He >told me that anytime a beef cow has twins and if either 1 or both of the >twins is a girl she will be sterile. I guess the males won't be. I find >this hard to believe but don't know where to start my research to find >out, if you could ask on your list I would appreciate it. >Thanks >Ann Weiler >Reference Technician >Mansfield Library at the College of Technology > > Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick BA, BA, MS (Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy) PO Box 844 Arlee MT 59821-0844 USA 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"hauss@iastate.edu" "Mark F Haussmann" 1-OCT-1999 08:47:32.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Heifer question Peggy, I think what you are refering to, is a process called a freemartin female in which a female calf is co-twin to a male calf. This occurs in the cow because there is an association between the placenta of the male and female fetus. This will allow male hormones such as HY-antigen and antimullerian hormone to cross from the male fetus through the placenta to the female fetus. In the male, HY-antigen causes the development of the Sertoli and Leydig cells, but in the female fetus it will result in the development of an ovatestes. Antimullerian hormone normally regresses the female reproductive tract in the male so that the male reproductive tract can mature. But, this hormone in the female will result in an all or partially regressed female reproductive tract so that only a vestibule is present, thus she would be sterile. An easy way to test and see if a female co-twin is sterile is to insert a syringe into her vestibule and if it stops after going in a few inches you know the rest of her reproductive tract is absent. This would not occur though if both twins were female because these male hormones would not be present. Hope that helps. Mark F. Haussmann Iowa State University 2355 Kildee Hall Ames, IA 50011 hauss@iastate.edu 515-294-9093 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 1-OCT-1999 09:08:51.54 To: IN%"jgardner@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "'Jennifer Gardner'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock (innate vs novelty) This debate could pivot upon considerations of what is innate in the animals repertoire of response to threat and how well it is equipped to respond to novelty. What is in the Comparator library of the bovine brain? Towards static but novel objects there seems to be inquisitiveness and a tendency to eat things. Moving novel objects may be another matter. To my lasting mortification I terrorised a pasture of pregnant heifers in Summer 1960 by entertaining a gang of us field hands (returning by tractor and trailer) by blowing madly on a hunting horn. A combination utterly alien to those beasts. I realise now that the extreme novelty overwhelmed the cattle's "matching" capacity and they bolted comprehensively. So trapping cattle with an inescapable "novelty" could be very punishing indeed. The ability to deal with innate threat in an economical manner is good adaptation. I would like some views on this if only to discover how awful was the thing I did! Robin -----Original Message----- From: Jennifer Gardner [SMTP:jgardner@APS.UoGuelph.CA] Sent: Friday, October 01, 1999 2:58 PM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: (Fwd) Livestock handling and stress I have enjoyed the interesting discussion about the biological background of techniques of livestock handling. The question whether such alternative methods would be less stressful for the animals than conventional methods is interesting. My question is: wouldn't we expect animals to be better adapted to cope with stressors of a type which they have evolved to deal with, than artificial stressors imposed upon them only when they are in the hands of humans? For instance, the everpresent risk of predators is something wild animals have to live with, and so I would expect that they can handle that fairly well. Restraint, on the other hand, would be encountered in nature only in very extreme situations (being caught by a predator), where it would be critical for survival to escape and so activation of major reactions would be expected. Besides being part of conventional handling techniques where animals are caught or herded into small paddocks, such restraint is in fact what many animals experience continuously in intensive housing systems... I would appreciate your comments on this! Best wishes Anna Anna Olsson Dept of Animal Environment and Health Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences P O Box 234 532 23 Skara, Sweden e-mail Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se Until October 1999 c/o Dr Ian Duncan Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1 Canada From: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "Jeanne Saddler" 1-OCT-1999 09:40:40.95 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "W. Ray Stricklin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" Subj: RE: JIR Perhaps the article in question (Meat eating,fear,dogs...) was "Spam"? H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 1-OCT-1999 09:50:00.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: JIR At 10:40 AM 10/01/1999 -0500, Jeanne Saddler wrote: >Perhaps the article in question (Meat eating,fear,dogs...) was "Spam"? > >H.U.G. Your dog! >Jeanne Saddler, This is the funniest thing I've seen in quite a while. Vivian easily amused.... Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 1-OCT-1999 10:06:10.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" CC: Subj: RE: More Meat Please --- Robin Walker wrote: > A lady from PETA with an American accent called > Toni Vanelli was on our local BBC radio yesterday. This is most odd. We, in the States, of course have PETA spokespersons - but they most always seem to have a British accent! It seems to me that the only logical conclusion that one can make from such strong data is that diet somehow influences accent - with some unidentified force within the Atlantic Ocean causing an interaction effect. Cheers. Ray Stricklin ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 1-OCT-1999 10:36:23.84 To: IN%"myriad@ksu.edu" "'Jeanne Saddler'", IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" "W. Ray Stricklin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca", IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "billcamp@cdsnet.net" Subj: RE: JIR I think the whole article is a dog's dinner and I wonder what brought it up. I tried pulling the pork references but none came up attached to Putzkoff. Robin -----Original Message----- From: Jeanne Saddler [SMTP:myriad@ksu.edu] Sent: Friday, October 01, 1999 4:40 PM To: W. Ray Stricklin Cc: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; billcamp@cdsnet.net Subject: Re: JIR Perhaps the article in question (Meat eating,fear,dogs...) was "Spam"? H.U.G. Your dog! Jeanne Saddler, myriad@ksu.edu (Manhattan Kansas) From: IN%"chris.gotman@sympatico.ca" 1-OCT-1999 11:42:23.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Breaking free from APPLIED-ETHOLOGY Are you locked into APPLIED-ETHOLOGY and you lost the key? Do you really want out? Well, here's what you do: In a new email message composition window, enter: applied-ethology-request@sask.usask.ca in the "mail to:" field. Leave the subject field blank. In the body of the message, type: UNSUBSCRIBE applied-ethology Don't write anything else. No name, no signature file. That should do it. Be sure NOT to send commands to applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca ! Note that you MUST send your "unsubscribe" command FROM the SAME address as you sent your "subscribe" address. Sending the command from a new forwarding address will not work. If you are on a Local Area Network (like, a network of interconnected computers at a university), your address may have changed slightly without your knowledge, and thus making your efforts at unsubscribing fruitless. That makes escaping the clutches of the list a little harder. :-) suum cuique (really fast!) chris gotman From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 1-OCT-1999 12:11:37.50 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: JIR W. Ray Stricklin wrote: >The article is entitled "Animal Stress Results in Meat >Causing Disease," and I have copied below a couple of >statements: > >"Stress, fear and pain when animals are being >slaughtered or waiting to be slaughtered results in >several disease processes in the humans which eat the >meat. Most notable are cardiac problems, impotency and >general fatigue. These adverse effects are most >directly associated with consumption of dog meat." > >"Fear in animals during slaughter causes dramatic >reduction of vitality and sexual potency in humans who >eat the meat. Fortunately, humans have evolved to >mainly eat animals which can be slaughtered with a >minimum of stress. Consumption of emotional animals >such as dogs is limited to a few primative societies. >Therefore it is unlikely that dramatic reductions in >health occurs as a result of slaughtering techniques." > >Now, some on this Applied Ethology group may question >whether or not this article by Dr. Putzfoff of the >Schmuckintush Lab should have been published, but I >point out to you that he referenced highly creditable >work including mine, Jeff Rushen's - not to mention 9 >Temple Grandin references - and a host of others. >With such a reference list, you gotta believe it. > >My serious question is, What the heck was the purpose >in writing this article? Was it intended to be a >spoof on science? On eating meat? Or was it written >just for fun - and I, being trained to seek purpose >and function, am lost in trying to find some rational >explanation for this article and ... > I can give you a possible explanation, but you will not find it palatable. **If you are squeamish, please don't read any further.** When I lived in Japan, I was told that the eating of dog meat was still practiced in many Asian countries. One of the most horrid descriptions that I was told had to do with the belief that the meat would taste better if the dog was thrown alive into the oven-- this supposedly would leave more blood in the legs thus improving the flavor (?). I never checked out the validity of this practice, so I want to stress that what I am relating here is here say. I'll admit that after seeing other indications of the attitudes (or lack there-of) of many Asians towards animal suffering, I had my suspicions and decided that I was too much a coward to find out if it was really true. It is also well known that the last wild tigers in the world are being poached to extinction because of the demand in Chinese medicine for tiger parts in potions to improve sexual prowess. If I were trying to alter public opinion in Asia that eating dog meat, or inhumanely butchering them was a bad idea, I might use the approach that this author has done, by linking sexual potency to eating dogs. I should also stress that not all Asians have a poor attitude towards animal suffering, as evidenced by some *awesome* people that I met there who are spreading the information about the benefits of the human-animal bond, changing the traditional views on animals and a set of new animal welfare laws that a number of Japanese animal welfare organizations are working together to try to get passed in Japan. Japan is a cultural leader in Asia and if the new laws can get passed there, it could spread to other countries. Let us wish them luck and whatever help they may need. Janice Willard DVM, MS Moscow, Idaho From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 1-OCT-1999 14:33:42.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: More Meat Please At 12:05 PM 10/01/1999 -0400, W. Ray Stricklin wrote: >--- Robin Walker wrote: >> A lady from PETA with an American accent called >> Toni Vanelli was on our local BBC radio yesterday. > > >This is most odd. We, in the States, of course have PETA >spokespersons - but they most always seem to have a British accent! > >It seems to me that the only logical conclusion that one can >make from such strong data is that diet somehow influences accent - >with some unidentified force within the Atlantic Ocean causing an >interaction effect. > >Cheers. > >Ray Stricklin Nonsense!! It's just that Americans go to Britian, and the Brits come here. Obviously, because a prophet is without honor in his own country. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 1-OCT-1999 14:34:50.26 To: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Scientific bias & Rupert Sheldrake >>> "D. B. Cameron" 09/30 6:19 pm >>> Agreed . . . . ideally. However, on a practical basis it seems that too = often only those with heavy credentials and reputation are ALLOWED to = argue. >>> I agree that this is a problem, and it may be widespread.=20 There have been a number of surveys showing that well known people=20 from prestigious institutes are generally treated more favourably=20 than others. Some journals now try to hide the identity of authors of papers that are submitted in the hope that reviewers will be fairer. I think it is a good idea. Jeff Rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 1-OCT-1999 14:47:18.32 To: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Rupert Sheldrake and science >>> Hans Erhard 09/30 8:57 am >>> What's wrong with someone publishing a paper which may have flaws in the = experimental set-up and someone else attaching a note to that paper = explaining the flaws? That way, the debate would be public, and we could = all join and see which side has the better arguments. >>> I think this is a good idea, at least in theory. Unfortunately,=20 average rejection rates are around 50% so publishing all articles would double the number published, which might be difficult for paper journals. It would be more feasible for electronic journals, and I think it would be a great idea to have an e-journal that published articles and included the original versions, referees' comments, authors' rebuttals, editors' decsions etc.=20 I am sure not many people would read it, but at least it would be = available for those interested. It would increase the transparency of the editing process, and probably encourage reviewers and editors to be a little more careful in their decision making. I understand that NIH had a plan to set up an electronic preprint server, which would publish all articles received, dividing those into reviewed and accepted, reviewed and rejected, and non-reviewed, allowing the readers to make up their own minds. One problem: like Hans I feel reasonably competent at making up my own mind as to the soundness of articles in my own area. But when I read articles in neurobiology etc. I am not able to judge whether correct methods were used, whether the data are plausible or not, and so I rely quite a lot on the "authority" of such journals, in deciding whether to believe the results or not. Jeff ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 1-OCT-1999 19:32:19.30 To: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" "Bill Campbell", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: JIR -- naet for allergies -- Thursday, September 30, 1999 6:53 PM, Bill Campbell wrote: > Speaking of hard-to-believe, unscientifically measurable phenomena, anyone > with allergies might be interested in looking at the testimonials at > http://allergy-naet.com > Especially interesting is the one from David Minkoff, MD, in So. Cal., who > intends to publish a paper of his clinical results. I wish him luck; > because two treatments [with at least ten more to go] have almost doubled > my extrinsically asthmatic lung capacity, as measured on a peak flow meter. and from Robin Walker, Thursday, September 30, 1999: > The problem with the PR of Cures is that only success is trumpeted. There is no market for the failures of Unorthodoxy. This is because the universal response is "well what did you expect?" hello, i thought of this naet treatment when i read Robin Walker's post. thank you, Bill, for this reference; i'll check it out. as to the "aggravation" you are having -- this is what i've been told from time to time when i've used various homeopathic formulations for one of my hounds: "oh, it will just take some time to kick in." by that time, the rash has spread or the itch increased. now, mind you, i know instances where i believe homeopathic remedies have been effective, but when they are not -- well...... my own vet said to me, if it worked all the time, we'd all use it. my personal philosophy is invariably less is more of whatever one is using. good luck with the asthma. margory From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 2-OCT-1999 08:54:45.28 To: IN%"margory@dnai.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: JIR -- naet for allergies -- On Fri, 01 Oct 1999 17:47:02 -0700 margory cohen writes: > Thursday, September 30, 1999 6:53 PM, Bill Campbell wrote: > > my personal philosophy is invariably less is more of whatever one is using. > > margory > > Does that apply to love, sex, crisp fall days, and even ice cream? ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic In vino veritas. ! ! Middleburg Hts., Ohio In cervisio felicitas. .. 440.826.0013 From: IN%"cumpa@favanet.com.ar" 3-OCT-1999 06:27:56.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Pinnipedos This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_ZrGjm2UVIzP8qDSjwpiqKA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Thirty dead seals were discovered in the Atlantic coast of Buenos = Aires-Argentina. This happened twenty days ago. We took samples from = their bodies (looking for the reason of that) and we found a penguin = into one of the furl seal=B4s stomach them. For my kowledge the furl = seal doesn=B4t eat penguins. I want to know if you have any idea about = this kind of feeding.=20 Do you have any recent reports about massive deaths like this? I need also some information about digestive parasites in this animal. Thanks in advance. --Boundary_(ID_ZrGjm2UVIzP8qDSjwpiqKA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Thirty = dead seals=20 were discovered in the Atlantic coast of Buenos Aires-Argentina. This = happened=20 twenty days ago. We took samples from their bodies (looking for the = reason of=20 that) and we found a penguin into one of the furl seal=B4s stomach = them. For=20 my kowledge the furl seal doesn=B4t eat penguins. I want to know if you = have any=20 idea about this kind of feeding.
Do you = have any=20 recent reports about massive deaths like this?
I need = also some=20 information about digestive parasites in this = animal.
Thanks = in=20 advance.
--Boundary_(ID_ZrGjm2UVIzP8qDSjwpiqKA)-- From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 3-OCT-1999 19:07:16.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: quick note on the Sheldrake book -- hello - san francisco examiner/chronicle book section today had the full back page for an ad for the sheldrake book. esp. (oops -- better write that out) especially after posts here this week, the 2 promotional quotes in the ad were from elizabeth marshall thomas and jeffrey mousaieff masson. now, i'm not shooting any arrows at either one of them, but i sure did think of many of you. all the best, margory From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 3-OCT-1999 19:13:26.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: quick note on the Sheldrake book -- At 05:47 PM 10/03/1999 -0700, margory cohen wrote: >hello - > >san francisco examiner/chronicle book section today had the full back page >for an ad for the sheldrake book. esp. (oops -- better write that out) >especially after posts here this week, the 2 promotional quotes in the ad >were from elizabeth marshall thomas and jeffrey mousaieff masson. now, i'm >not shooting any arrows at either one of them, but i sure did think of many >of you. > >all the best, >margory Don't know Masson. but if Eliz M Thomas likes it I don't want to read it. Her book was one that I threw against the wall at least ten times while reading it. Anybody who would let a Husky belonging to somebody else wander thru the street of Cambridge, just following on a bike, to see what the dog did, was not my kind of person. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"d.b.morton@bham.ac.uk" "David Morton" 4-OCT-1999 04:30:45.72 To: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: More Meat Please Well Ray, Since Australia cut down on taking our undeisrable ................ David >--- Robin Walker wrote: >> A lady from PETA with an American accent called >> Toni Vanelli was on our local BBC radio yesterday. > > >This is most odd. We, in the States, of course have PETA >spokespersons - but they most always seem to have a British accent! > >It seems to me that the only logical conclusion that one can >make from such strong data is that diet somehow influences accent - >with some unidentified force within the Atlantic Ocean causing an >interaction effect. > >Cheers. > >Ray Stricklin > >---------------------- >W. Ray Stricklin >University of Maryland Prof. David B. Morton, Head Centre for Biomedical Ethics, Division of Primary Care, Public and Occupational Health, (Director Biomedical Services Unit) University of Birmingham, Edgbaston, Birmingham B15 2TT UK Tel. + 44 (0)121 414 3616/4517 Fax + 44 (0)121 414 6979/6842 Email From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 4-OCT-1999 08:20:48.50 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: Pigs - soiling the lying area Further to our recent discussion on this aspect of problematic swine behaviour, I have put together, with the help of Dale Arey & Nick White, a web-page summary of experiences & suggestions at: http://www.pighealth.com/dunging.htm Regards, Mike Meredith From: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" 6-OCT-1999 00:51:48.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The rejection rate of scientific papers.... Dear all, Jeff Rushen wrote: "Unfortunately, average rejection rates [of scientific papers] are around 50%..." This made me wonder why that is. For those of you, who are not trying to do research for a living, the publication of scientific papers in peer-reviewed journals (that is, journals where you paper will be sent to one or two colleagues, whose identity is not known to you, for evaluation) is the main 'currency' on which you are assessed as a scientist. So how come 50% of what is submitted is rejected? I realise this may be a rough estimate, and vary between journals, but for the sake of the argument (and easy maths) let's stick to 50%. I asked a few colleagues (whose identity I did know) and below are some of the suggestions we came up with, some of them not to be taken too seriously: 1) Half of the papers written are crap. But then, surely, scientists by now must know what it takes to get a paper accepted? (Then again, maybe half of the scientists submitting papers are crap and people never learn anything?). 2) Most, if not all, researchers have had papers rejected, but no-one has admitted to having over 50% rejected - but somebody must have a somewhat higher rejection rate, no? A lot of colleagues do admit to recommend rejection for about 50% of the papers that they have been sent to referee. 3) The papers which are rejected, get re-submitted to other journals, where they also get rejected, and thus it is the SAME 50% which keep circulating the journal-scene. 4) If the carpark is big enough for 50 cars, then the first 50 that arrive get in. Arriving earlier, however, is not a way of fitting 150 cars into it. The question remains: What is the selection criterion? For cars it's the order of arrivng. For papers? 5) If 50% get accepted, maybe we can increase our chance of getting a paper accepted by submitting enough crap, thus pushing the good ones into the top 50%? Any comments (especially from Editors or ex-Editors of journals, who may hold the key to the answer)? Regards, Birte ____________________________________________ Birte L Nielsen Senior Scientist Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences Research Centre Foulum PO Box 50 DK-8830 Tjele Phone: (0045) 8999 1373 Fax: (0045) 8999 1500 Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 6-OCT-1999 04:58:16.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: publication rates Dear Birte and others, The story regarding publication rates and getting our cutting-edge science read by others gets worse! I was rather shocked to read last night that in the psychology literature, 55% of publications are never subsequently cited (K. Shapiro, Animal Models of Human Psychology: Critique of Science, Ethics and Policy). I have no idea if this statistic is the same for publications in applied animal behaviour science...but one can only imagine the worse. Any other ethologists else out there feeling rather unread, undervalued and unloved! ---------------------- Dr Chris Sherwin Ph.D. Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 6-OCT-1999 05:06:24.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: The rejection rate of scientific papers.... At 08:57 AM 10/06/1999 +0200, you wrote: >Dear all, > >Jeff Rushen wrote: >"Unfortunately, average rejection rates [of scientific papers] are around >50%..." According to Harlan Ellison, ninety percent of everything is crap. Which means that there are a lot of crappy papers getting into journals. Vivian off to jury duty Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 6-OCT-1999 08:35:18.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: looking for Jeremy Marchant Anyone knowing the whereabouts of Jeremy Marchant or his current email address, please contact me. Jeff Rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 6-OCT-1999 09:00:37.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: found Jeremy Marchant I am amazed how many people know Jeremy Marchant's email. Thank you all. I have found him. ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"JNM@dmu.ac.uk" "Jeremy Marchant" 6-OCT-1999 09:07:21.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: found Jeremy Marchant What's so amazing, Jeff? When you hold the ISAE purse-strings, everyone wants to be your friend!! Either that or they want to know where their AABS copies have got to....! Jeremy ;-) ---------------------------------------------------- Dr. Jeremy Marchant, School of Agriculture, De Montfort University, Caythorpe, Grantham, Lincs., NG32 3 EP, UK. +44 1400 275682 jnm@dmu.ac.uk ----------------------------------------------------------------- > -----Original Message----- > From: Jeff Rushen [SMTP:rushenj@EM.AGR.CA] > Sent: 06 October 1999 15:55 > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: found Jeremy Marchant > > I am amazed how many people know Jeremy Marchant's email. > Thank you all. I have found him. > ************************************************** > Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. > Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, > Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, > PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, > Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 > Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 > Fax. 1-819-5645507 > Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca > ************************************************** From: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 6-OCT-1999 12:26:31.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: fossil rim Hello All, Just wondering if anyone on this list works at Fossil Rim. I seem to remember "talking" with someone before about it. We have an intern at our elephant farm, currently, who is a graduate from University of Miami at Coral Gables with a biology degree, who is looking for an apprenticeship or a full time position working with animals. She will be leaving here around Christmas after a 6 month internship with us. Any or all suggestions are welcome. She is actively searching for positions and postings regarding positions.=20 Thanks, Sheree Walters =20 <") ,-''/^ ^`\ ~,~~''``^-..=20 (.) , ) \ `\=20 (`) . o ) ) )\ (`\/ (' / .) \=20 `-//..^ \__/ ( ) \ // \ ( ,) /\ / `/( /^~~--~~~^`( ) '|=20 / | ( .) ( / ( .) =20 /-.\ /-.| /-.| /-.| (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) Ivory Haven - Laura the Elephant's House on the Web: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248 Learn how Laura earns money while she sleeps! Take an e-commerce Safari with her! New Online Mall! http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248/safarishop.html "By sharing a vision... Perhaps others may expand their horizons as well Through the energy that most personal journeys create." Sheree =A9 1997 From: IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com" "Rayenna Rhys" 6-OCT-1999 12:40:24.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group" CC: Subj: Looking for Journals to Subscribe to --Boundary_(ID_Q9xKtqB02VZFDF+hxbtTqw) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This is Rayenna--that architectural firm librarian. Our lab/research people asked me to find a journal or two for us to subscribe to that focuses on large animals. Obviously we are interested in facility design information, but we are used to reading science publications and inferring how the information would affect the facility we design so please don't be put off and just say there is no such thing. On the other hand, we get Laboratory Animal Science (because of AALAS memberships) and this journal really is too scientific, too research oriented for us to even be able to infer anything from the articles. Are there publications a little less formally scientific (can't think of a better phrase) that anyone would recommend? I did try calling the AVMA but, for some reason, am having an impossible time actually connecting with a real, live person to speak to. Any other bright ideas you may have to help us educate oursevles would be appreciated as well. Thanks Rayenna Rhys Flad & Associates Madison, WI --Boundary_(ID_Q9xKtqB02VZFDF+hxbtTqw) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit This is Rayenna--that architectural firm librarian.  Our lab/research people asked me to find a journal or two for us to subscribe to that focuses on large animals.  Obviously we are interested in facility design information, but we are used to reading science publications and inferring how the information would affect the facility we design so please don't be put off and just say there is no such thing.  On the other hand, we get Laboratory Animal Science (because of AALAS memberships) and this journal really is too scientific, too research oriented for us to even be able to infer anything from the articles.  Are there publications a little less formally scientific (can't think of a better phrase) that anyone would recommend?  I did try calling the AVMA but, for some reason, am having an impossible time actually connecting with a real, live person to speak to.  Any other bright ideas you may have to help us educate oursevles would be appreciated as well.

Thanks

Rayenna Rhys
Flad & Associates
Madison, WI
  --Boundary_(ID_Q9xKtqB02VZFDF+hxbtTqw)-- From: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Joseph P. Garner" 6-OCT-1999 13:19:24.77 To: IN%"rayenna_rhys@flad.com" "'Rayenna Rhys'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group" CC: Subj: RE: Looking for Journals to Subscribe to Hi Rayenna, you might like to look into the publications from an american charity called "the shape of enrichment" http://enrichment.org/index.html They have a quarterly publication, that i have not seen, so i can't reccommend one way or another. Their conference proceedings however often contain some very interesting work. cheers Joe ___________________________ Joseph Garner Univeristy of California Department of Animal Science One Shields Avenue Davis CA 95616 USA Phone: (530) 754 5291 -----Original Message----- From: Rayenna Rhys [mailto:rayenna_rhys@flad.com] Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 11:39 AM To: Applied Ethology Discussion Group Subject: Looking for Journals to Subscribe to This is Rayenna--that architectural firm librarian. Our lab/research people asked me to find a journal or two for us to subscribe to that focuses on large animals. Obviously we are interested in facility design information, but we are used to reading science publications and inferring how the information would affect the facility we design so please don't be put off and just say there is no such thing. On the other hand, we get Laboratory Animal Science (because of AALAS memberships) and this journal really is too scientific, too research oriented for us to even be able to infer anything from the articles. Are there publications a little less formally scientific (can't think of a better phrase) that anyone would recommend? I did try calling the AVMA but, for some reason, am having an impossible time actually connecting with a real, live person to speak to. Any other bright ideas you may have to help us educate oursevles would be appreciated as well. Thanks Rayenna Rhys Flad & Associates Madison, WI From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 6-OCT-1999 19:15:00.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group" CC: Subj: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please hello, often i refer to my abrantes or other books with wolf or dog drawings with interpretations of a particular expression for body language, as it were. mouth blows by a dog-- i can't find where i've seen this. what i'm picturing is the dog, for instance, my deerhound will be serious and usually focused on perhaps food? or another object of desire -- and there will a puffing thru the sides of the mouth with a poof of air. anyone have a moment to direct me to reasonable interpretation or offer me simple explanation? how a yawn from a dog could show not a stressful attitude (or in a person one who is really bored with my question;-). thanks, margory From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 6-OCT-1999 19:23:07.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Discussion Group" CC: Subj: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please hello, often i refer to my abrantes or other books with wolf or dog drawings with interpretations of a particular expression for body language, as it were. mouth blows by a dog-- i can't find where i've seen this. what i'm picturing is the dog, for instance, my deerhound will be serious and usually focused on perhaps food? or another object of desire -- and there will a puffing thru the sides of the mouth with a poof of air. anyone have a moment to direct me to reasonable interpretation or offer me simple explanation? how a yawn from a dog could show not a stressful attitude (or in a person one who is really bored with my question;-). thanks, margory From: IN%"AShaad@aol.com" 6-OCT-1999 22:12:52.88 To: IN%"margory@dnai.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please Margory, I believe I have seen the behavior you are describing in wolves. I work at a captive education/research facility with wolves. With one male wolf (born 1995) in particular I seen what I have called puffy or floppy lips. Usually I notice this when I am vigorously scratching him along his neck or chest. He will stand with his neck out stretched and then I hear/see his lips "flop" In many instances it is done in conjunction with a higher ranking wolf in the area - I have yet to isolate the behavior to see if it is related to the approach of the higher ranking animal ( a male with whom he "does not got along with") So in my case it can either have to do with "pleasure" ( scratching, food) or concern ( approach of another wolf, conflict). manda From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 7-OCT-1999 09:38:12.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please Sent: Wednesday, October 06, 1999 9:12 PM by Manda: > I believe I have seen the behavior you are describing in wolves. I work > at a captive education/research facility with wolves. /// So in my case it can either have to do with > "pleasure" ( scratching, food) or concern ( approach of another wolf, > conflict). ah, Manda, thank you so much for responding. lucky you, your job. interesting to hear this back. my deerhound's object of desire would fall in to the realm of pleasure too. will be more alert to where her sister is when i see this again. b/c i've not seen in out in the world in general; usually only here at home. almost a persistence to it. thank you. margory From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 7-OCT-1999 10:09:56.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please marjory... I see this in my husky/shepherd frequently. Curious, isn't it? He remains very still while 'mouthblowing'...I attribute it to a form of very focused sniffing...Something seems to have caught his attention and...not unlike a cigar smoker who taste-puffs his cigar...the dog seems to be sampling the scent with mouth and nasal passages in a concentrated manner. Just a guess...but as near as I can figure! Donna Reynolds From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 7-OCT-1999 10:16:33.59 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: Behaviour of Hogs: excreting in the lying area I have added a reference list, and contributions from Dr. Harold Gonyou of the Prairie Swine Centre and Dr. Nabil Brandl of the Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences, to the web page on excretory behavior of swine at: http://www.pighealth.com/dunging.htm Thanks Mike Meredith From: IN%"emilypk@bumail.bradley.edu" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 7-OCT-1999 10:28:27.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please > He remains very still while 'mouthblowing'...I attribute it > to a form of very focused sniffing...Something seems to have caught > his attention and...not unlike a cigar smoker who taste-puffs his > cigar...the dog seems to be sampling the scent with mouth and > nasal passages in a concentrated manner. > Just a guess...but as near as I can figure! > Rats show a similar behaviour. Audible deep breathing for several cycles with the mouth open. It is interpreting the same way as passing a large volume of air over the nasal membranes. Another human equivalent is how wine drinkers will hold a mouthful and suck air over it, to get a better sensation of the taste. Emily From: IN%"bergerulr@bluewin.ch" "Berger Ulrich" 7-OCT-1999 11:00:06.63 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please - still another question Donna Reynolds wrote: > > marjory... > I see this in my husky/shepherd frequently. > Curious, isn't it? > He remains very still while 'mouthblowing'...I attribute it > to a form of very focused sniffing...Something seems to have caught > his attention and...not unlike a cigar smoker who taste-puffs his > cigar...the dog seems to be sampling the scent with mouth and > nasal passages in a concentrated manner. > Just a guess...but as near as I can figure! > > Donna Reynolds Dear all, reading "very focused sniffing" and "sampling the scent with mouth and nasal passages" I had an idea: There is the vomeronasal organ (Jacobsohnsches Organ) between mouth and nose, this mouth blowing might be related to pheromones. Does anybody know more about this in dogs? Dr. med. vet. Ulrich Berger Thunstr.43 CH-3510 Konolfingen, Switzerland Phone +41 31 791 27 27, fax +41 31 791 39 04 email From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 7-OCT-1999 15:15:31.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: legislation on culled dairy cows I am looking for some information on European legislation relating to the transport of culled dairy cattle especially=20 "downers" i.e. non-ambulatory cattle.=20 Grateful for any help etc. Jeff Rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.CA" "Nora Lewis" 7-OCT-1999 15:23:54.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Anim. Behav. Sci." CC: Subj: Observer All, I am thinking about purchasing a Noldus Observer Video-Pro which is supposed to make collecting data from video tapes quicker, and with fewer errors. I would appreciate any comments on this system. Is it worth $5,000 (American.). Are there other systems on the market which people like? Nora -- Nora Lewis, Ph.D., DVM Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 7-OCT-1999 18:45:34.28 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please - still anotherquestion From: Berger Ulrich, Sent: Thursday, October 07, 1999 6:08 PM: > reading "very focused sniffing" and "sampling the scent with mouth and > nasal passages" I had an idea: There is the vomeronasal organ > (Jacobsohnsches Organ) between mouth and nose, this mouth blowing might > be related to pheromones. Does anybody know more about this in dogs? hello Berger - Donna, Manda, Michael - when my dhs are phemanizing, there seem to be a cluster of quick short inhales and then sometimes even some teeth chattering (forgive me, but sort of like anthony hopkins in "silence of the lambs", not so lethal however;-)). with the blows, no teeth or inhales, it all seems to be coming out. thank you so much for considering this. your comments and observations totally welcome and appreciated. margory From: IN%"Lene.Munksgaard@agrsci.dk" "Lene Munksgaard" 8-OCT-1999 06:28:10.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: ecological farming in denmark Hi Jeff and others Price of ecological milk in denmark is approx. 7,25 kr/l compared to 4,25 kr/l for unecological milk. More information about Danish Organic Farming can be found at www.ecoweb.dk/english. Have a nice weekend, Lene Munksgaard From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 8-OCT-1999 11:15:14.37 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Fw: Re: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please ^ ^ D. B. Cameron, DVM < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic In vino veritas. ! ! Middleburg Hts., Ohio In cervisio felicitas. .. 440.826.0013 marjory... I see this in my husky/shepherd frequently. Curious, isn't it? He remains very still while 'mouthblowing'...I attribute it to a form of very focused sniffing...Something seems to have caught his attention and...not unlike a cigar smoker who taste-puffs his cigar...the dog seems to be sampling the scent with mouth and nasal passages in a concentrated manner. Just a guess...but as near as I can figure! Donna Reynolds This sounds like it could be a flehmann (sp?) activity, especially if it is associated with a rhythmic jaw flexing (best noted by watching the temporal muscles) or even a jaw "shivering" or chattering action. DBC From: IN%"JSWANSON@oz.oznet.ksu.edu" 8-OCT-1999 12:44:05.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) trapping research Dear Colleagues, A student has given permission to me to post a request(below)on the applied ethology listserv. I am not aware of the research literature on trapping animals (leg hold devices) and the physiological changes that are induced when an animal is trapped. Is anyone aware of research that has measured, for example, stress responses in animals while trapped in a leghold device? Thank you for your assistance. (I have slightly edited the message to get directly to the request and to remove the student's personal information.. University policy) Janice Swanson ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Wed, 6 Oct 1999 17:22:46 -0500 (CDT) To: jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu Subject: trapping research Dear Dr. Swanson, I am currently enrolled in Physiological Adaptations of Animals in which I am to present material of current research dealing with some aspect of physiological processes. My background experience deals heavily with the trapping of animals, and it has always been an interest of mine as to what changes occur in the animal when it is trapped. Current research related to the effects of trapping on the physiological processes of animals is what I'm looking for. Any response is appreciated and I hope to hear from you soon. Sincerely, From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 8-OCT-1999 14:24:01.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Re: mouth blows in the dog -- small question please From: D. B. Cameron, Friday, October 08, 1999, > This sounds like it could be a flehmann (sp?) activity, especially if it > is associated with a rhythmic jaw flexing (best noted by watching the > temporal muscles) or even a jaw "shivering" or chattering action. hello D.B. and sincere thanks for your observation. appreciate being able to ask and all of you replying. i will keep watch here and next time see the blows look to the jaw as well to see what i can. i can't get enough of these deerhounds;-)). a few mornings during this last late winter in san francisco bay actually saw for the first time a young grey whale "blow" -- i have to say i felt a bit charged the entire day from that sight. no tail, alas, but the back and the blows. all the best, margory From: IN%"jessnbob@pop.ihug.co.nz" "J van der pol and bobby Allsop[" 10-OCT-1999 14:50:28.87 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: greetings Dear members, I am a new subscriber just wishing to introduce myself to you all. I am a Masters student at the University of Waikato, N.Z. My interests include animal behaviour and welfare, with a particular interest in both cats and dogs. I am currently deciding on my thesis topic for next year and have decided to study urine spraying in cats, which I believe is a big problem for many cat owners. If anyone knows of any good papers on this topic I would appreciate a reply, Thanking you in advance, Jessica. From: IN%"sabine.gebhardt@itz.unibe.ch" 12-OCT-1999 05:57:40.86 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new member My name is Sabine Gebhardt and I just started working in a new group of zoologists and vets at the University of Berne, Swizerland. Our main topic is the study of extreme breeding forms of pets, especially budgerigars, canaries, and golden hamsters. We are interested in anatomical, physiological, and behavioral differences of these extreme races compared to the wild-type. Our group just started one week ago, so we are now in the process of getting settled in and browsing through the literature. Therefore, we welcome to hear from others working on that topic and we are interested in literature about extreme breeding forms (races) of budgies, canaries, and hamsters. From: IN%"mni1445u@postoffice.uri.edu" "Murn Nippo" 12-OCT-1999 13:23:14.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: UK Internships Hello all: I have several undergraduate students who are interested in doing an internship in the UK in wildlife rehabilitation or a related area.. I would appreciate any sources that would give us a start at finding some opportunities. thank you, Murn Nippo -- Dr. Murn M. Nippo FAVS Department, University of Rhode Island Woodward Hall, Kingston, RI 02881 USA Phone 401-874-2940 (voice) 401 874-4017 (fax) murn@uri.edu (E-Mail) http://www.uri.edu/cels/favs_home/mn.html From: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan" 13-OCT-1999 11:14:22.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Intro/rat heaven Hi, My name is Catriona Ryan and I am re-subscribing to this list after being unsubscribed when I was off work some months ago. My main interest for a number of years has been cognitive processing in birds (specifically pigeons and domestic chickens). However, this being a deeply unfashinable area with funding bodies and the like, I have also turned my hand to various other activities connected with applied ethology and natural history generally, such as designing projects for primary schoolkids, helping friends with problem pets, running activity sessions for children and so forth. I am currently engaged in designing the perfect enclosure for a pair of pet rats which ahve hitherto been kept in a somewhat stressful environment. The basic space will be large enough for the owners to walk into if they wish and we plan to cover the floor with approximately 10cm of woodshavings, shredded newspaper, loose polystyrene packing material (e.g.'chips') or similar. Ideally, I would like to add hay to this mix, but when I have used it in the past with mice they have developed skin irritations which often caused them to scratch themselves raw. Has anyone else had this problem? Does it occur in rats as well? Has anyone got any suggestions as to what else we could incorporate in the substrate? We would also like to provide the rats with some environment enrichment. Again, we have some basic ideas about this, but if anyone's rat out there has a particular favourite 'toy' or similar, we'd like to hear about it! Thanks a lot in advance, Catriona ---------------------- Catriona Ryan University of Exeter School of Psychology Washington Singer Laboratories Exeter EX4 4QG U.K. Tel: +44 1392 264620 E-mails: c.m.e.ryan@exeter.ac.uk or: catriona@ryaninc.freeserve.co.uk From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 13-OCT-1999 12:21:12.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan" CC: Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven Hello Catriona! I breed rats and have found the following rat toys and diversions to be a hit: - paper (especially tissue paper (white only - don't use dyes) or shredded office paper). Kleenex, paper towels, etc work well also - cardboard boxes - rawhide chews - numerous plastic boxes (easily cleaned) with an entrance and exit hole for playing, hiding and sleeping. Great to hide food and they have to search for the food (don't let them see where you put it! - cloth. They LOVE cloth especially cotton - various levels of platforms for climbing and jumping. These could be wood, large diameter rope, some wires if the gauge is large enough (preferably plastic coated) Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"JPGarner@UCDavis.Edu" "Garner, Joseph P." 13-OCT-1999 12:52:53.78 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "'Deborah McWilliams'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan" CC: Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven Well, here's my ha'pennies worth... Wrom working with voles (which are kind of mouse sized) i can make the following reccomendations: 1. They love hay, they build the most amazing structures with it. We didn't have the skin problems you describe. 2. Anything they can shred, they will shred, whether they enjoy doing this is another matter. Deborah's point about dye is a good one. You should be careful to avoid anything toxic, or undigestable. For that reason i would advise against PVC coated wire. All those little bits of plastic inside a rat can't be good. Paper towels are great for this. 3. You can also get these little blocks of wierd compact stuff that is sold as lab mouse/rat "enrichment". It's probably some space shuttle program by product, but anyway it shreds up to about ten times it's size into something like cotton wool. I wasn't desparately impressed - the hay seemed a far more "natural" substrate for this kind of behaviour - but there we are. 4. Many rodents are extremely agile animals exploiting a three-dimensional substrate, and rats are no exception. For smaller rodents, you can get these fantastic snap-together 3D mazes (e.g. "Habitrail") which you can build into the most incredibly baroque structures. Again, the voles really interact with this kind of device, and usually nest inside it. The advantage of the snap together type of maze is that you can change the arrangement around every now and again. For the rats you could build all sorts of platforms, tubes, ladders, ropes. The more structural complexity the better. I remeber seeing a really nice poster at the 1998 ISAE on this kind of environment. 5. Manipulation of objects is another important part of rodent natural history. You could definately think up some enrichment devices where food or treats are hidden inside something that has to be manipulated or chewed through (In nature, these devices are called "nuts") 6. Getting more elaborate you might like to give the animals some control over their environment, by providing them with operants to control heat and light for instance. Anyway, hope that helps. Rodents are pretty amazing animals. In my old department, there was an experimental psychologist who did all these old-fashioned style maze experiments with rats which he picked up and put down at the end and start of each trial. With all that variability and enrichment they were incredible animals. cheers Joe. > -----Original Message----- > From: Deborah McWilliams [mailto:DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA] > Sent: Wednesday, October 13, 1999 11:20 AM > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca; Catriona Ryan > Subject: Re: Intro/rat heaven > > > Hello Catriona! > I breed rats and have found the following rat toys and > diversions to be a hit: > > - paper (especially tissue paper (white only - don't use dyes) or > shredded office paper). Kleenex, paper towels, etc work well also > - cardboard boxes > - rawhide chews > - numerous plastic boxes (easily cleaned) with an entrance and exit > hole for playing, hiding and sleeping. Great to hide food and they > have to search for the food (don't let them see where you put it! > - cloth. They LOVE cloth especially cotton > - various levels of platforms for climbing and jumping. These could > be wood, large diameter rope, some wires if the gauge is large enough > (preferably plastic coated) > > Deb > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc > > Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > From: IN%"smillman@hsus.org" "Suzanne Millman" 13-OCT-1999 15:04:48.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: change of address for Suzanne Millman For anyone trying to reach me these days, I have left the University of = Guelph and am now at the address below. Cheers, Suzanne Millman Suzanne Millman Director of Scientific Programs Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture Section The Humane Society of the United States (HSUS) 2100 L Street, NW,=20 Washington, DC 20037 U.S.A. TEL: 301-258-3114 FAX: 301-258-3081 EMAIL: smillman@hsus.org From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 14-OCT-1999 02:33:26.26 To: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven Dear Catriona and others, When designing rodent housing, you might like to look at 'Refining Rodent Husbandry: The Mouse' Lab. Anim. 32, 233-259 (1998) Jennings et al. Although this was written specifically for the mouse, many of the ideas are applicable to rats. My own suggestion is that you consider giving the rats running wheels. Also, tying in with Joe's idea, try giving them operant control of running wheels - there's some really neat references to rodents insisting on controlling running wheels, i.e turning them off when experimenters turn them on, and turning them on when experimenters turn them off! Chris Sherwin On Wed, 13 Oct 1999 18:14:00 +0100 (GMT Daylight Time) Catriona Ryan wrote: > Hi, > My name is Catriona Ryan and I am re-subscribing to this > list after being unsubscribed when I was off work some > months ago. My main interest for a number of years has been > cognitive processing in birds (specifically pigeons and > domestic chickens). However, this being a deeply > unfashinable area with funding bodies and the like, I have > also turned my hand to various other activities connected > with applied ethology and natural history generally, such > as designing projects for primary schoolkids, helping > friends with problem pets, running activity sessions for > children and so forth. > > I am currently engaged in designing the perfect enclosure > for a pair of pet rats which ahve hitherto been kept in a > somewhat stressful environment. The basic space will be > large enough for the owners to walk into if they wish and > we plan to cover the floor with approximately 10cm of > woodshavings, shredded newspaper, loose polystyrene packing > material (e.g.'chips') or similar. Ideally, I would like to > add hay to this mix, but when I have used it in the past > with mice they have developed skin irritations which often > caused them to scratch themselves raw. Has anyone else had > this problem? Does it occur in rats as well? Has anyone got > any suggestions as to what else we could incorporate > in the substrate? > > We would also like to provide the rats with some > environment enrichment. Again, we have some basic ideas > about this, but if anyone's rat out there has a particular > favourite 'toy' or similar, we'd like to hear about it! > > Thanks a lot in advance, > Catriona > > ---------------------- > Catriona Ryan > University of Exeter > School of Psychology > Washington Singer Laboratories > Exeter EX4 4QG > U.K. > Tel: +44 1392 264620 > E-mails: c.m.e.ryan@exeter.ac.uk > or: catriona@ryaninc.freeserve.co.uk > ---------------------- Dr Chris Sherwin Ph.D. Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"H.A.vandeweerd@las.vet.uu.nl" "H.A. van de Weerd" 14-OCT-1999 03:31:45.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven Hi Catriona, Another tip - in addition to the other useful tips- for your rats home. Rats are extremely fond of digging and making burrows. You could give them an opportunity for this by putting a large tub or basin in their enclosure with a layer of diggable substrate in it (e.g. earth, sawdust mixed with earth, other bedding materials), just try some mixtures to make the perfect substrate. About the skin irritations you describe for mice, I did not see this in mice (at home or in the lab), maybe the hay was of poor quality or maybe they got an ectoparasite from some other source. Are you sure they did not nibble at each others fur? (hair-nibbling is seen in some laboratory strains of mice). Good luck, Heleen ========================================== Dr. Ir. H.A. van de Weerd Department of Laboratory Animal Science PO Box 80.166 3508 TD Utrecht Phone: ++ (0)30-2533818 (2033) E-mail: h.a.vandeweerd@las.vet.uu.nl ========================================== From: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Miss C.M. Nevison" 14-OCT-1999 04:39:28.00 To: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven Hi Catriona and all, Your planned rat enclosure does sound fantastic. I do wonder though whether the rats will become a bit more difficult to handle as they dive through the enrichment to get away! Perhaps not a problem from the rats perspective but something to bear in mind for the owner. Regarding the problems with hay and skin irritations - from my experience with my own pet rats, which in the past I have kept on shavings, I have found that as they get older they do seem to lose hair and get gradually more scabby. The rats have had various potions and injections from the vets but nothing really solved the problem. I have a little hunch regarding this with some evidence, maybe a vet on the list can suggest whether there is any merit in it. I've observed that rats, housed on shavings, that I've found cold a few hours after passing away, seem to have some sort of mites crawling off them. These were NOT visible to the eye when the animals were alive. My theory is that these are picked up from shavings, and probably hay, and the animals are able to deal with them until they start getting old and then presumably find it harder to tolerate them and you start seeing the hair loss / scabs. I back this theory up with my observations that lab rats I've worked with on long term studies housed on grids or lab quality shavings have shown no signs of this. In addition to this my current pet rats, in light of this hunch, have been kept on the shredded J-cloth type of bedding all their life and now at age 2.5 years (getting on a bit) show no signs of hair loss / irritations. With regards enrichment, rats do interact with all the items suggested and, with my non-scientist head on I'd agree that they seem to enjoy them. However, I'd caution that by saying that what constitutes appropriate enrichment will vary according to circumstance e.g. what it is used for (e.g. pet, lab(if so, what type of study it is used for), space (smallish cage to the enclosure type described by Catriona), its social grouping (grouped, single sex / mixed sex), behavioural characteristics of the individuals / strains concerned and the degree of human / animal interaction required. For instance, work I've done (and others have found this too) with male mice in lab type cages has found that aggression is increased in enriched environments, probably due to the addition of coveted resources in a barren environment. Which is fine if you are prepared to accept that this is a part of the natural social repertoire and hair loss and perhaps bite wounds if more intense, but probably not if you are the subordinate individual who cannot satisfactorily evade aggressors in the limited space provided by this type of environment. Food for thought. Charlotte. From: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison" 14-OCT-1999 06:32:03.16 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan" Subj: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate? Hi again, Chris has provoked me into replying to his running wheel suggestion. The advocation of running wheels as enrichment is something I'm still uneasy with, and I'm interested in other peoples informed opinions (hope people don't think I'm revisiting a tired old debate). Why? 1. Wheel running - self motivated - repetitive, invariant, function a matter of debate - not known to be used in natural environments (ref. to the contrary Chris?) therefore 'abnormal'? - tendency to be advocated to improve welfare. 2. 'Stereotypy' (particularly thinking of bar-related behaviour in mice as a comparison) - self-motivated - repetitive, invariant, presumed non-functional (though I contest this) - not known in nature (no bars!), but climbing / chewing a large component of wild rodent behaviour - usually considered to indicate poor welfare (though some psychologists I've talked to disagree!). So, in the light of these points, do you think we should advocate running wheels as enrichment? Or are they used as behavioural substitution for stereotypy? (Interestingly bar-related stereotypy is reported to decline when they are placed in cages). Is their use just covering underlying deficits in the cage environment? If so, aren't we kidding ourselves by advocating the use of running wheels? This is a topic I believe we should consider carefully, as technicians are very keen to see the introduction of wheels as enrichment for millions of rodents in labs. Incidentally, my own indecision is partly fuelled by my own addiction to treadmills in the gym. But there again, I can get off and walk out of the gym. Regards, Charlotte. ---------------------- C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk Animal Behaviour Research Group Division of Animal Husbandry Leahurst Veterinary Teaching Hospital, University of Liverpool, Chester High Road, Neston, South Wirral L64 7TE UK Tel: 0151 794 6101 Fax: 0151 794 6107 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 14-OCT-1999 07:17:35.02 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" CC: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate? >>> Charlotte Nevison 10/14 8:31 am >>> The advocation of running wheels as enrichment is something=20 I'm still uneasy with, ....(snip).... 2. 'Stereotypy' (particularly = thinking of bar-related behaviour in mice as a comparison) - (snip) = usually considered to indicate poor welfare (though some psychologists = I've talked to disagree!). So, in the light of these points, do you think we should=20 advocate running wheels as enrichment?>>> The problem with stereotypies is not the performance of the behaviour itself but the underlying conditions that lead animals to perform stereotypies. Preventing animals from performing stereotypies but leaving them with the underlying problem will not solve anything. Likewise, allowing animals to perform the stereotypies doesn't solve the problem either. Similarly for mice, the question as to whether or not mice should be encouraged to wheel run depends on why they want to wheel run. Jeff Rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@UManitoba.CA" "Nora Lewis" 14-OCT-1999 08:01:15.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Anim. Behav. Sci." CC: Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven > Hi all, I would suggest putting a fixed box with an open entrance which can be closed off into the design. Repeatedly feeding special treats in this box will bring the rats into it. A discriminative cue would be good for indicating when treats would be available. This gives the owners a chance to pick up and examine the rats at their convenience and to treat them if necessary. Nora -- Nora Lewis, Ph.D., DVM Department of Animal Science, University of Manitoba, 12 Dafoe Rd., Winnipeg, Manitoba, Canada. R3T 2N2 phone: 204 474-9443 fax: 204 474-7628 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 14-OCT-1999 08:22:25.16 To: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan", IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Miss C.M. Nevison" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven Great tips on rat environments! I would just like to add: 1. Using hay, dirt, sand, etc. is risky because these products usually are exposed to wild animal feces, bacteria, etc that you import into your rats' environment if you use them. 2. A wheel provided for rats must be enclosed or they will catch their tail in the spokes. 3. Re: capture of rats (or any animal) in a large environment (e.g., where they have freedom of choice). An animal who associates you with food, pets, etc. will approach you. Approach behaviours can gradually be shaped to allow touching and other contact. My rats, who all have choices for their location and/or proximity to me, quickly come when called (although they usually "pop up or out" when I enter the room or call them). Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"emilypk@bumail.bradley.edu" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 14-OCT-1999 08:32:05.11 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven > When designing rodent housing, you might like to look at 'Refining > Rodent Husbandry: The Mouse' Lab. Anim. 32, 233-259 (1998) Jennings et > al. Although this was written specifically for the mouse, many of the > ideas are applicable to rats. Rat refs are not as well developed but there is Anzaldo et al (1994) AWIC Newsletter, Bradshaw & Poling (1991) JEAB and Batchelor (1993) Animal Technology > My own suggestion is that you consider giving the rats running wheels. > Also, tying in with Joe's idea, try giving them operant control of > running wheels - there's some really neat references to rodents > insisting on controlling running wheels, i.e turning them off when > experimenters turn them on, and turning them on when experimenters turn > them off! For more on that try Darrel Smith at Victoria University, I can pass on the email. > My main interest for a number of years has been > > cognitive processing in birds (specifically pigeons and > > domestic chickens). > > I am currently engaged in designing the perfect enclosure > > for a pair of pet rats which ahve hitherto been kept in a > > somewhat stressful environment. SNAP, I started with hen perception and then went to rat enrichment > > add hay to this mix, but when I have used it in the past > > with mice they have developed skin irritations which often > > caused them to scratch themselves raw. No probs with good hay, but nix the newspaper for ink toxicity > > > > We would also like to provide the rats with some > > environment enrichment. Again, we have some basic ideas > > about this, but if anyone's rat out there has a particular > > favourite 'toy' or similar, we'd like to hear about it! > The love shredded document paper, well designed nest boxes and some interest in raised platform (and I have the data to prove it). They were indifferent to most other things. I didn't test the wheel... Emily From: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison" 14-OCT-1999 08:41:00.91 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate? Hi Jeff, and fellow list members, > The problem with stereotypies is not the performance of the > behaviour itself but the underlying conditions that lead animals > to perform stereotypies. Agreed. > Preventing animals from performing > stereotypies but leaving them with the underlying problem > will not solve anything. Likewise, allowing animals to > perform the stereotypies doesn't solve the problem either. Again agreed. > Similarly for mice, the question as to whether or > not mice should be encouraged to wheel run depends on > why they want to wheel run. Perhaps rehashing my last mail here, but imagine the scenario - you put a wheel in the cage of a mouse - it runs on it. Similarly, put bars on the top of the cage - it climbs on them. Both behaviours usually performed at high frequency. Are both fulfilling the 'want' for activity? If so, why is one outlet (ie. provision of a wheel) more acceptable to us than the other? Why bother providing running wheels in addition to the bars that are already features of most rodent cages? These are the sort of arguments that we have to counter, and our arguments have to be convincing as there are many people using lab animals that fight against enrichment for many reasons (eg. costs and the increase in variability). Alternatively, is the motivation behind these activities more 'sinister'? Evidence I gathered supports earlier suggestions that bar-related stereotypy in mice is motivated by a desire to leave the cage (escape?). So wheel running is not an obvious means of leaving the cage, but as bar-related behaviour can be substituted by wheel running, is this performed when repetitive behaviour is ingrained and functional motivation is lost, and hence fulfills the criteria for a stereotypy? (NB. not sure about the importance of the switch here). Say wheel running and / or bar behaviour is found to be something that an animal 'wants', eg. through tests where they have to work to gain access to these resources. Does this mean that they are acceptable to the animal, or just the best choice in a world of poor choices? I'm being deliberately provocative here. We need a sound basis for advocating certain types of enrichment. I'm not yet convinced about the evidence for running wheels, and I don't like being so negative towards people who are desperately keen to improve the environments of their animals. Regards, Charlotte. ---------------------- C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk Animal Behaviour Research Group Division of Animal Husbandry Leahurst Veterinary Teaching Hospital, University of Liverpool, Chester High Road, Neston, South Wirral L64 7TE UK Tel: 0151 794 6101 Fax: 0151 794 6107 From: IN%"emilypk@bumail.bradley.edu" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 14-OCT-1999 08:41:11.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Anim. Behav. Sci." CC: Subj: RE: Intro/rat heaven > I would suggest putting a fixed box with an open entrance which can be > closed off > into the design. Repeatedly feeding special treats in this box will bring > the > rats into it. A discriminative cue would be good for indicating when > treats would > be available. This gives the owners a chance to pick up and examine the > rats at > their convenience and to treat them if necessary. > > Nora I found that when there was a good nest box in the cage the rats were rarely out of it, and without reversed day/night lighting this should be even more true... Emily From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 15-OCT-1999 03:14:01.40 To: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate? Dear Charlotte and Others, My reasons for advocating a running wheel come from research for a review article I published last year (please forgive the blatant self-promotion - someone has to do it!...Sherwin, C.M. Voluntary wheel running: a review and novel interpretation. Animal Behaviour, 56:11-27). Do running wheels improve welfare? Considering physiology only, providing a running wheel leads to decreased fat deposits, more efficient oxygen consumption and greater longevity...I think most people would consider these to indicate improved physiological well-being. If given a choice between artificial tunnels/digging substrate and a running wheel, rodents will spend more time in the running wheel, and work harder (pressing operant switches) to gain access to the running wheel. This is true even when the animal can gain access to 230m of tunnel system! So, for those people advocating giving rodents tunnels (e.g. Habitrail) there is good evidence the animals would prefer (benefit more from?) a running wheel instead...I suggest we should provide both to be on the safe side. Is wheel running a stereotypy? Wheel running occurs within a few minutes of a running wheel becoming available - this is not usually the case with stereotypies. Wheel running occurs in diverse environments, e.g. in preference to the 230m of tunnels mentioned above, large semi-natural pens the size of laboratories, (I also have a vague recollection of an anecdote describing a released hedgehog returning to its pen to use a running wheel). Use of a wheel is less invariant than we might think. Animals often jump in and out of a wheel, cling to the bars and allow theselves to be carried around the wheel, will stop and start motorised wheels, will swap to use irregular shaped wheels (they prefer 'square' wheels, or wheels with hurdles in) and perform activities in the wheel, e.g. jumping over the axle, 'transporting' young'. There is also evidence that providing running wheel STOPS somersaulting stereotypies in canyon mice. Having said this, I take Charlotte's point of view that we should not simply provide a running wheel and then believe that everything is OK. Wheel running may be a re-directed, abnormal behaviour (whether stereotypical or not) in which case we need to determine the underlying motivation and the implications for welfare of the animals. I also agree with Charlottes's suggestion that it would be a really neat experiment to compare the strength of motivation for a running wheel and to gain access to bars for the performance of escape behaviour. Regards, Chris ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Ph.D. Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Miss C.M. Nevison" 15-OCT-1999 04:30:43.61 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" CC: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan" Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate? Dear all, Sorry, I should have mentioned Chris' impressive review paper on wheel running. A staggering 191 references (count 'em!). Worth a read, though I have to say this paper played a large part in generating my concern over the provision of running wheels (some of the facts it lists are stunning - in 24hrs rats ran 43km in a wheel! - I'm sure wild rats don't run this far in this period!). However, in writing the review Chris seems to have become largely in favour of advocating wheels - with some reservations. Hope you can all make up your own minds and be happy with your decisions. Regards, Charlotte. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 15-OCT-1999 05:02:44.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Addictive Running? Of course whatever is good for you is bad for you! How about "scuttling" in a wheel for the hell of it and all those lovely endorphins! Some might get the endogenous addiction that is described for joggers and jitterbuggers of various species. Others no doubt are satiated or fatigued and achieve homeostasis within something that could be described as a normal range. I would guess haloperidol and naloxone would wipe out the reward and the motivation. My advice to the rat is "go roadie rat go!" Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 15-OCT-1999 05:03:55.00 To: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Miss C.M. Nevison" CC: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate? Dear All, Thanks Charlotte for the comments on the review. The 'distances' run in running wheels are quite staggering. However, I must admit that since publication of the review in which I accurately quoted data presented in papers, it has been pointed out to me that at the normal running speed of some of these animals, they would have to run continually for 23.5 hrs to achieve these distances...! It appears there may have been some inaccurate calculations/data collecting somewhere. On Fri, 15 Oct 1999 11:30:24 +0100 (BST) "Miss C.M. Nevison" wrote: > > > Dear all, > > Sorry, I should have mentioned Chris' impressive review paper on wheel > running. A staggering 191 references (count 'em!). Worth a read, though > I have to say this paper played a large part in generating my concern > over the provision of running wheels (some of the facts it lists are > stunning - in 24hrs rats ran 43km in a wheel! - I'm sure wild rats > don't run this far in this period!). > However, in writing the review Chris seems to have become largely in > favour of advocating wheels - with some reservations. Hope you can all > make up your own minds and be happy with your decisions. > > Regards, > Charlotte. > > ---------------------- Dr Chris Sherwin Ph.D. Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"bjorn.forkman@zoologi.su.se" "Bjorn Forkman" 15-OCT-1999 06:26:01.47 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Miss C.M. Nevison" CC: IN%"C.M.Nevison@liverpool.ac.uk" "Charlotte Nevison", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "Catriona Ryan", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" Subj: RE: Wheel running - to advocate or not to advocate? Dear All, this reminds me of an anecdote from the lab of Prof Bengt Meyersson. He led a department that was involved in looking at the effects of different pharmacological substances on behaviour. One of the things they were interested in were the general activity of the animals (in this case gerbils), and they used running wheels to measure that. However, the measures they got were way to high, extremely high, so they decided to do what a good ethologist does - look at the animal instead of relying on automatic measurements. What they saw was that the gerbils tended to jump into the wheel, run very fast, and then jump out of it and sit watching the wheel spinning until the wheel stopped, at which point the gerbil would jump in again and start all over - how's that for enrichment ??? all the best, Björn Forkman From: IN%"dmb16@cam.ac.uk" 15-OCT-1999 09:08:19.14 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: rat housing In these four papers we looked at strengths of rat preferences for flooring, nestboxes of various kinds and bedding. Other people's work is discussed. Manser, C.E., Morris, T.H. and Broom, D.M. 1995. An investigation into the effects of solid or grid cage flooring on the welfare of laboratory rats. Lab. Animals, 29, 353-363. Manser, C.E., Elliott, H., Morris, T.H. and Broom, D.M. 1996. The use of a novel operant test to determine the strength of preference for flooring in laboratory rats. Lab. Anim., 30, 1-6. Manser, C.E., Broom, D.M., Overend, R. and Morris, T.H. 1998. Investigation into the preference of laboratory rats for nest-boxes and nesting materials. Lab. Animals, 32, 23-35. Manser, C.E., Broom, D.M., Overend, R., and Morris, T.H. 1998. Operant studies to determine the strength of preference in laboratory rats for nest-boxes and nesting material. Lab. Animals, 32, 36-41. Don Broom Professor D.M.Broom, Animal Welfare and Human-Animal Interactions Group, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, University of Cambridge, Cambridge CB3 0ES, U.K. Telephone:44 (0)1223 337697.Fax:44 (0)1223 337610.