From: IN%"tstawar@concentric.net" "tstawar" 8-OCT-1998 04:00:49.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Anticpation, avoidance, phobias, and object constancy in animals Hi, This is my first posting. I just read an article on canine phobias and it seemed that there was an assumption about the capacity of the animal to anticipate possible encounters with the feared object and somehow hold an internal "image" or representation of the feared object, even when the object itself is not in view. Certainly some anticipation could be interpreted in regard to responses to environmental cues (time of day, place, objects, etc.). but can it be a true phobia with this internal image and avoidance of encounters when the object is not actually seen. Any thoughts or references on object constancy? Terry L. Stawar, Ed.D. DABPS Peace River Center 1745 Highway 17, South Bartow, Florida 33830 941-534-7020 Ext. 125 FAX 941-534-7028 tstawar@bigfoot.com From: IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk" "marie.haskell" 8-OCT-1998 04:53:35.92 To: IN%"tstawar@concentric.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Anticpation, avoidance, phobias, and object constancy in animals Dear Terry and other Applied Ethologists, There has been quite a lot of work done with dogs in the domain of 'object permanence', or the ability of the individual to retain a mental reference of an object when it is not in sight. Mostly the tests done have involved hiding pieces of food behind one screen, and then letting the dog go and find the hidden food. Harder tests are then to hide the food behind one of two screens, then one of three screens. Dogs appear to perform well. However, the tests have not been extended to other objects in experimental settings, such as other dogs, and not to objects which they might be afraid of. It is also possible that processes other than object permanence or object constancy might be involved in the case of fear. Taking the dog back to a place where it had been experienced a frightening event before might induce a fear reaction simply because the place is now associated with the event, rather than the dog remembering the exact frightening object. So, really, dogs may very well be able to have a mental reference of a frightening object, but you would have to test whether that was what was going on in that particular instance. Anyway, just some thoughts, and a couple of references! Triana and Pasnak, 1981. Object permanence in cats and dogs. Animal Learning and Behavior, 9, 135-139. Gagnon and Dore, 1992. Search behavior in various breeds of dog: object permanence and olfactory cues, J. Comp. Psych, 106, 58-68. Marie Haskell Roslin Institute (Edinburgh) From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 8-OCT-1998 07:45:08.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: frustration Dear All, I agree with Marc's assessment of the occurrence of rams pawing ewes preceeding and during mating, but, this raises the issue of whether it is appropriate to use the intensity of a 'normal' behaviour to measure frustration. Frustration is an emotional state and it is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to measure directly. If a ram increases his rate of pawing, this might simply be due to an increase in the motivation to perform this activity without a state of frustration being experienced. He might be thinking 'I must try harder' rather than 'I am not getting anywhere, damn, I must try harder'. I think we must be very careful to avoid anthropocentricity and anthropomorphism when discussing frustration. This is particularly the case when an animal shows an activity similar to one we might ourselves perform when frustrated, i.e. striking out. This tendency to think animals react in the same way as ourselves could lead to misinterpretation. For example, Nicol and Pope (1996 Anim. Behav. 52:767-774) showed that mother hens increased their rate of scratching and pecking when they observed their chicks eating apparently unpalatable feed (in reality, the feed was palatable). This was interpreted by the authors as the hens being sensitive to chick error and attempting to attract chicks to more profitable feed. However, if we consider this as analagous to the ram mating behaviour, what is to stop us thinking the hens were becoming frustrated at the chicks not feeding 'correctly'? My own feeling is that it might be safer to consider the occurrence of an unrelated or totally disticnt activity, e.g. displacement activities, a particular vocalisation, as indicative of frustration. ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk Hello Chris (and the others ...) I think that you are absolutely right when you said that pawing the ewe with front legs is a common behaviour of rams before attempting to mount. Other behaviours like nudging the flank or particular vocalisations are also observed. These are ritualised and can be considered as courtship behaviour. So it could be measured and average frequency and durations coud be calculated (it is maybe already done?). If copulation is not possible, these measurements could be statistically different. About frustration and the increase of precopulatory behaviours, is it not possible to explain these situation using the common theory of "appetitive, consummatory and satiety" acts? If the consummatory phase is not possible but the motivation is high, then appetitive behaviours increase. Sincerely yours, Marc From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 8-OCT-1998 08:09:07.92 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PhD position no longer available Severeal people have shown their interest in the PhD position here. I am sorry, I can't consider more applicants. Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 8-OCT-1998 08:12:45.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" CC: Subj: RE: Anticpation, avoidance, phobias, and object constancy i Hello Terry!! > Date sent: Thu, 08 Oct 1998 05:55:21 -0500 > From: tstawar > Subject: Anticpation, avoidance, phobias, and object constancy in animals > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Hi, > This is my first posting. I just read an article on canine phobias and > it seemed that there was an assumption about the capacity of the animal to > anticipate possible encounters with the feared object and somehow hold an > internal "image" or representation of the feared object, even when the > object itself is not in view. Are you saying the assumption was that the animal had an image of the feared object? Would it be correct to say that it could be labelled a memory? > Certainly some anticipation could be interpreted in regard to responses > to environmental cues (time of day, place, objects, etc.). but can it be a > true phobia with this internal image and avoidance of encounters when the > object is not actually seen. Any thoughts or references on object constancy? Research with human infants only a few months old indicate that they have cognitive images of objects in their environment. For example, a human infant will react if shown an object "out of place" of its normal place in the environment. A simple experiment: if you have a cat or dog at home, rig up something that is not normal. For example, chairs in my home do not move on their own. If I rig a chair to move without any obvious human or animal manipulation, my animals first react with what appears to be fright and then cautiously advance to investigate. This leads me to believe that they must have a cognitive representation of what the chair should do (or not do in this case). If an animal is capable of a cognitive representation of normal, usually benign objects in their environment, why not cognitive representations of objects that (for them) are a threat? Ultimately: why would we even question that animals have this cognitive ability? It is rather essential to survival whether the environment is a home, a paddock or a forest. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 8-OCT-1998 08:57:35.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: frustration It is true that there is no way of measuring a mental state. However, if we look at the definition of "frustration" Petit Larousse, 1981: (transl.) "State of psychological tension resulting from the presence of obstacle between a subject and its goal." Then the first example conforms with this definition: the ram is the subject, mating is the goal and "lack of good aim" (haha!) is the obstacle. I know being anthropomorphic is a big no-no, but (Dare I say it??) suggesting a possible mental state is more interesting than just saying "When a ram does not achieve penetration, his precopulatory behaviours increase in frequency." Chantal. From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 8-OCT-1998 09:27:47.92 To: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: frustration On Thu, 08 Oct 1998 10:58:39 -0400 Chantal Gaboury wrote: > It is true that there is no way of measuring a mental state. However, if > we look at the definition of "frustration" Petit Larousse, 1981: > (transl.) "State of psychological tension resulting from the presence of > obstacle between a subject and its goal." Then the first example > conforms with this definition: the ram is the subject, mating is the > goal and "lack of good aim" (haha!) is the obstacle. I know being > anthropomorphic is a big no-no, but (Dare I say it??) suggesting a > possible mental state is more interesting than just saying "When a ram > does not achieve penetration, his precopulatory behaviours increase in > frequency." > Chantal. > I think Prof. Morgan had something to say about this in 1884!!!! ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 8-OCT-1998 10:43:12.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: frustration Chris Sherwin wrote: > I think Prof. Morgan had something to say about this in 1884!!!! Please excuse my ignorance, perhaps you could enlighten me. I must have been away from class on that day. :-) Chantal. From: IN%"tstawar@concentric.net" "tstawar" 8-OCT-1998 14:31:42.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Anticpation, avoidance, phobias, and object constancy in animals Dear Applied Ethologists: Thanks so much for the comments and references regarding my inquiry. The article I referred to was an abstract entitled Phobias in dogs: from diagnosis to treatment by Gerard Muller and be found at the site below: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/newsletter97a.htm#abstracts I suppose my real question is how do animal phobia differ from human phobias or do they. Are the both just chains of fractional anticipatory responses? Or are animal phobias more like signal induced panic attacks, while human phobias involve more symbolic cognitive aspect like obsessive thought about the phobic object? If any reads Muller'a abstract, I wonder how they feel about his division of dog phobias in to ontologenic and post traumatic types and his later classification into adrenergic, dopaminergic and serotoninergic reaction types. Thanks. Terry Stawar From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 8-OCT-1998 16:10:33.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" Subj: lightning and trees Hi, I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to find data on lightning strikes and trees. However, the situation does seem more cloudy than some suspect.The National Lightning Safety Association (US) suggests the following: AVOID: Avoid water. Avoid all metallic objects. Avoid the high ground. Avoid solitary tall trees. SEEK: Seek clumps of shrubs or trees of uniform height. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 8-OCT-1998 16:12:47.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" Subj: lightning and trees (data!!) In October 1997, the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration = published findings of some 35 years of USA lightning statistics. = Fatalities, injuries, and damage were compiled for the years 1959-1994. We = summarize the Report (1) as below: 1. Location of Incident: 40% Unreported. 27% Open fields & recreation areas (not golf). 14% Under trees (not golf). 8% Water-related (boating, fishing, swimming*).=20= 5% Golf/golf under trees. 3% Heavy equipment and machinery-related. 2.4% Telephone-related. .7% Radio, transmitter & antenna-related. = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =20 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 8-OCT-1998 16:35:57.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Killer cows and Konrad Lorenz >This is argueing for the sake of it, but here goes: >It is a question of the relative costs of making different sorts >of errors. Agreed. Most such decisions are made on the basis of the relative cost:benefit ratio. When dealing with safety issues, we err on the side of >safety. If you think the cows won't attack and they do, you can pay a big price. If you think they will attack, when they would >not have, the price you pay is not very high (e.g. walking a >bit further and crossing the next paddock). Therefore it is best to assume that the cows will attack. In science, we prefer >to make errors on the side of conservatism. Thus, when there >is no supporting evidence, we assume the statement is wrong. Seems that you are missing a chance to deal with a new idea if that is your unvarying strategy. I only bother to comment because this attitude is what drives thoughtful, but non-academic, individuals nutsy. For instance, 20 years ago or so, the first suggestion that free radicals are not good for you became fairly widely disseminated. Also, it was postulated that Vitamin E might be useful to aid in dealing with this problem. Since there is essentially no downside risk to taking reasonable amounts of vitamine E, and I was already middle-aged, I decided to take this non-proven non-risk and take vitamine E. Turned out to be an excellent non-risk as this strategy has been established as useful to aid in preventing coronary artery disease; which runs rampent in my family. Your academic strategy of instant rejection if no proof would not have done me any favors, and on a broader screen would seem to set one up for missing significant opportunities in other fields. -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 8-OCT-1998 17:13:10.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: lightning and trees Jeff Rushen wrote: > > Hi, > > I have been trying (unsuccessfully) to find data on lightning strikes and trees. However, the situation does seem more cloudy than some suspect.The National Lightning Safety Association (US) suggests the following: > > AVOID: Avoid water. Avoid all metallic objects. Avoid the high ground. Avoid solitary tall trees. > SEEK: Seek clumps of shrubs or trees of uniform height. > > Jeff Rushen > So then I guess it would be advisable to opt for plastic pant zippers! ;-) From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 8-OCT-1998 20:51:22.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Killer/Cows and Applied Theory > When dealing with safety issues, we err on the side of > safety. If you think the cows won't attack and they do, you can pay >a big price. If you think they will attack, when they would > not have, the price you pay is not very high (e.g. walking a > bit further and crossing the next paddock). Therefore it is best to >assume that the cows will attack. In science, we prefer > to make errors on the side of conservatism. So...in the "real world" of cows and California hikers, it would seem...according to the cow-folk on this list...that there is a large population of people taking even larger risks in their recreation. If you want to talk statistics however, it seems the cattle and dogs are doing pretty darn good together, all in all. (One stomped dog and a few people with good mobbing stories to tell in the mix of thousands of CA hikers ain't too bad). Besides the 'fore offered advice of avoiding the situation altogether (impossible, at least in these parts)...what code of conduct would the cow-folk recommend to hikers if "the lightening strikes" and the cows get a little too frisky for safety's sake? It was recommended that hikers raise their arms and yell. (I don't think my dogs would respond quickly enough to my trying to "chase them away" as recommended earlier...we have established ourselves as a 'pack' partially for reasons of collective safety) My husband once scolded an approaching cow with an authoritative "NO!!" and claims it worked just fine (!). Please, ethologists, apply your theories here to a real life situation and offer your best advice. Thank you, Donna Reynolds PS - I have discovered that dog-less hikers are also experiencing cattle aggression while on the public trails...so, your advice will certainly be useful to more than just those pesky dog people ;o) From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 8-OCT-1998 23:07:36.33 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "'dreyn@sirius.com'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Killer/Cows and Applied Theory Donna Speaking from experience, having been baled-up by cattle and narrowly escaping (a matter of a few cm!!) serious injury or death by a steer, the advice of raising your arms and yelling may not always work. How the cattle respond to that depends very much of what is motivating them to "charge/mob". A beast that is in a confined area and cannot see a way to escape may well charge if you get too close. Raising arms, jumping up-and-down and yelling may serve to baulk the animal and turn it, (the theory behind this is that you are making yourself taller and behaving like a 'predator'!) but it will come at you again if it has nowhere else to go. It also depends on the temperament of the animal(s) involved - I've worked with some pretty wild cattle which will take on anything (including motorbikes, people on horses, and 4WD vehicles!) even if there is an escape route for them! In this event, a hiker's best strategy would be to beat a very hasty retreat over/under a fence or climb a tree!! If cattle are 'attacking' because they are 'frisky' then jumping-up-and-down may serve to excite them more, so the best strategy would be to stand still (if you are sure you've read the signals right and are feeling brave!!). This may not seem very helpful, but I guess it comes down to what I said about reading the signals - you have to know what the animals are telling you by their body language in order to know how to respond. Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Racer-Reynolds Illustration [SMTP:dreyn@sirius.com] > Sent: Friday, October 09, 1998 6:15 > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Killer/Cows and Applied Theory > > > When dealing with safety issues, we err on the side of > > safety. If you think the cows won't attack and they do, you can pay >a > big price. If you think they will attack, when they would > > not have, the price you pay is not very high (e.g. walking a > > bit further and crossing the next paddock). Therefore it is best to > >assume that the cows will attack. In science, we prefer > > to make errors on the side of conservatism. > > So...in the "real world" of cows and California hikers, it would > seem...according to the cow-folk on this list...that there is a large > population of people taking even larger risks in their recreation. > > If you want to talk statistics however, it seems the cattle and dogs > are doing pretty darn good together, all in all. (One stomped dog and > a few people with good mobbing stories to tell in the mix of thousands > of CA hikers ain't too bad). > > Besides the 'fore offered advice of avoiding the situation altogether > (impossible, at least in these parts)...what code of conduct would the > cow-folk recommend to hikers if "the lightening strikes" and the cows > get a little too frisky for safety's sake? > > It was recommended that hikers raise their arms and yell. > > (I don't think my dogs would respond quickly enough to my trying to > "chase them away" as recommended earlier...we have established > ourselves as a 'pack' partially for reasons of collective safety) > > My husband once scolded an approaching cow with an authoritative > "NO!!" and claims it worked just fine (!). > > Please, ethologists, apply your theories here to a real life situation > and offer your best advice. > > Thank you, > Donna Reynolds > > PS - I have discovered that dog-less hikers are also experiencing > cattle aggression while on the public trails...so, your advice will > certainly be useful to more than just those pesky dog people ;o) From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 9-OCT-1998 02:22:24.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: frustration > Chris Sherwin wrote: > > > I think Prof. Morgan had something to say about this in 1884!!!! > Chantal Gaboury wrote: > > Please excuse my ignorance, perhaps you could enlighten me. I must have > been away from class on that day. I write: Can't we just discredit Prof. Morgan? Hans ____________________________________ Hans Erhard Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Tel.: 01224 - 318611 Fax.: 01224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"bjorn.forkman@zoologi.su.se" "forkman" 9-OCT-1998 02:44:52.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Lloyd Morgan's canon This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_cev9A/VKgxWastggGTTvDA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Dear Hans, and all, (Lloyd Morgan's canon: "in no case may we interpret an action as the = outcome of the exercise of a higher psychical faculty, if it can be = interpreted as the outcome of one which stands lower in the = psychological scale".)=20 in my humble opinion Lloyd Morgan's canon is one of the most important = foundations of ethology, and psychology. It simply makes for good = science. It is possible to think of any number of different proximate = explanations for a given behaviour, e.g. "my dog wags its tail when I = come home because it knows that if I think that it is happy to see me = then that will make me happy", some of which will be impossible or very = difficult to test. (There are enough "just so" stories in Behavioural = ecology without our contribution. 8 - ) ) I think an expedient way of approaching a problem is to look at the = simplest solution first and see if the problem can be solved that way, = and then and only then progress to the next complexity level. Please = note that Lloyd Morgan's canon does not say that you should never go to = the next level, just that you shouldn't go to the next level without = having tried the more basic one first. There are of course problems with the canon, not the least of which is = determining when the possibilities of one level are exhausted and it is = time to move on. Anyone have any good ideas about that? Bjorn *************************************************** Bj=F6rn Forkman Dep of Zoology, University of Stockholm 106 91 Stockholm, Sweden +46 (0)8 164048 --Boundary_(ID_cev9A/VKgxWastggGTTvDA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Dear Hans, and all,
 
(Lloyd Morgan's canon: "in no = case may we=20 interpret an action as the outcome of the exercise of a higher psychical = faculty, if it can be interpreted as the outcome of one which stands = lower in=20 the psychological scale".)
 
in my humble opinion Lloyd Morgan's canon is one of = the most=20 important foundations of ethology, and psychology. It simply makes for = good=20 science. It is possible to think of any number of different proximate=20 explanations for a given behaviour, e.g. "my dog wags its tail when = I come=20 home because it knows that if I think that it is happy to see me then = that will=20 make me happy", some of which will be impossible or very difficult = to test.=20 (There are enough "just so" stories in Behavioural ecology = without our=20 contribution. 8 - )  )
 
I think an expedient way of approaching a problem is = to look=20 at the simplest solution first and see if the problem can be solved that = way,=20 and then and only then progress to the next complexity level. = Please note that Lloyd Morgan's canon does not = say that you=20 should never go to the next level, just that you shouldn't go to the = next level=20 without having tried the more basic one first.
 
There are of course problems with = the canon, not=20 the least of which is determining when the possibilities of one level = are=20 exhausted and it is time to move on. Anyone have any good ideas about=20 that?
 
 
Bjorn
 
 
***************************************************
Björ= n=20 Forkman
 
Dep of Zoology, University of = Stockholm
106=20 91 Stockholm, Sweden
+46 (0)8 164048
--Boundary_(ID_cev9A/VKgxWastggGTTvDA)-- From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 9-OCT-1998 03:05:51.04 To: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: frustration Apologies, but I may have misled you by giving the wrong date. I was referring to Morgan's Canon in which Conway Lloyd Morgan, an eminent psychologist wrote - 'In no case may we interpret an action as the outcome of the exercise of a higher psychical faculty if it can be interpreted as the outcome of one which stands lower on the psychological scale' Morgan, C.L. (1894). Introduction to Comparative Psychology, Scott, London. Hope this helps. Chris On Thu, 08 Oct 1998 12:43:51 -0400 Chantal Gaboury wrote: > Chris Sherwin wrote: > > > I think Prof. Morgan had something to say about this in 1884!!!! > > Please excuse my ignorance, perhaps you could enlighten me. I must have > been away from class on that day. > :-) Chantal. > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"pln1@clermont.inra.fr" "Pierre LE NEINDRE" 9-OCT-1998 08:53:51.78 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cortisol in the milk I am looking for information about the concentration of cortisol in the cow's milk: Is it possible to measure it and how? Is it related with the level(s) of cortisol in the blood? Thanks Pierre Le Neindre From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 9-OCT-1998 11:46:49.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Inferring a mental state One thing I find interesting about inferring the animal's mental state, is the predictive power that goes along with it. I think that saying, "The bull is becoming frustrated." allows us to predict that an eventual head-butt up the rear of the ewe may take place. Saying that the ram now has "An increased motivation to mate." to me, does not tell us a great deal. In addition, it is no more quantitative than saying that the bull has become frustrated. Perhaps there are quantitative measures associated with an increased motivation to mate, like an increased level of testosterone, perhaps, but would one actually wait to measure these physiological changes before making such a statement, or might one infer an increased motivation from mere observation. Besides, what is a an increased motivation to mate, in practical terms. (Before the ram was saying to itself, "Boy, I want to do it…" and now it is saying, "Boy I REALLY want to do it…) I mean, in practical terms, it seems to me that the answer is dicotomous…either an animal is motivated to mate or it is not. Now, to go back to the idea of inferring a mental state. I think there is scientific reason to do so. I think that humans (and animals, for that matter) are very perceptive of subtle behaviour sequences that animals make, and I think it is important not to dismiss these "gut feelings" as anthropomorphic just because, at this point we have difficulty expressing what it is that our subconscious has registered that has caused us to interpret a behaviour. I think the worst thing that can happen is that we are wrong in our interpretation. But even if we are shown to be wrong, we have contributed to the advancement of science because someone has bothered to out there and do a study that discredits our interpretations. Another example that comes to mind is the identification of play behaviour. Since there has been a lot of work done in this area, we are at the point where we can define play (I'm not sure there is a definition that suits everyone, but that's how it seems to go, with definitions). Nevertheless, we can identify it and propose functions for the behaviour. But, more importantly, I think, is that we can often predict that an animal is about to play, or at least identify play as it is occurring. We don't have to wait to the end of a play bout to be able to say: "Oh, that was play because the behavioural sequence was incomplete." I think we are able to recognise play earlier on, but that we have trouble explaining why. I think this is due to a lack of vocabulary. Perhaps we will eventually develop the vocabulary that will allow us to describe the infinite number of body postures that an animal can exhibit, but at the present, just describing body posture, often does not provide us with any insight in to the animal's motives. A person observing the animal might have and idea of what is about to happen next, but someone reading a description of the observations, will not have that element of intuition transferred to him. The last example to illustrate what I mean by "knowing" something, but not being able to express it: The Esquimos have, something like, 29 different words corresponding to different shades of white, being able to communicate what kind of snow is out there is presumably quite important for survival in their environment… By contrast, when we exit our homes on a bright, snowy morning, looking at the snow, we have an idea of how the skiing on that snow is going to feel, but we might not have a word to describe that snow. Cheers, Chantal :-) From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 10-OCT-1998 03:40:49.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: "Anthroparrogance" and Frustration Chris Sherwin questions the animal model of frustration thus:- ".... raises the issue of whether it is appropriate to use the intensity of a 'normal' behaviour to measure frustration. Frustration is an emotional state and it is therefore difficult, if not impossible, to measure directly. If a ram increases his rate of pawing, this might simply be due to an increase in the motivation to perform this activity without a state of frustration being experienced. He might be thinking 'I must try harder' rather than 'I am not getting anywhere, damn, I must try harder'. " I am not so sure that we can cut off the lower end of the frustration continuum just because it does not match human cognitive capabilities. Even a mere male notices that females often are really more committed to building and filling nests, having headaches and washing their hair than actual mating. However in the early stage of such transactions the demonstration of any degree of extra effort to achieve consummation, surely can be described as "frustrative vigour". Otherwise it seems to me that hundreds of thousands of 'ramstergigs' have puffed, pulled, pattered, pressed, pounded and perished to no avail! "Nice data" have been provided tugging the spring, in the runway, at the lever, (jumping in the lake?) and at the various "scientific" treadmills to show that denial of reward increases the vigour of response. To reserve the expression of the emotion to the extreme of adjunctive or displacement behaviours because we can relate to them is itself anthropocentricity. "I think we must be very careful to avoid anthropocentricity and anthropomorphism when discussing frustration. This is particularly the case when an animal shows an activity similar to one we might ourselves perform when frustrated, i.e. striking out. This tendency to think animals react in the same way as ourselves could lead to misinterpretation. " The genesis of a behaviour pattern, or the acquisition of a craving lie at the heart of ethology and the study of addictive behaviours both normal and substance based. I think the mammalian brain models the sources of all our emotions. It is the philosopher and the novelist who ferment the heady brew of anthroposuperiority. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors "Life is the satisfaction of Appetites. The Art of living is to keep them alive" M.E. From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 10-OCT-1998 08:41:47.41 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: "Anthroparrogance" and Frustration Lloyd Morgan's "Canon" is often cited as a mantra of sorts against anthropomorphism. However, Morgan also said: "To this it may be added--lest the range of the principle be misunderstood--that the canon by no means excludes the interpretation of a particular act as the outcome of the higher mental processes if we already have independent evidence of their occurrence in the agent." Morgan, D.L. (1900) Animal Behaviour. Scott, London. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== I play, therefore I am. -- Renee DeCat From: IN%"martin@bg.fcen.uba.ar" 10-OCT-1998 15:06:55.01 To: IN%"ETHOLOGY@SEGATE.SUNET.SE", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Zoo's Hello: I'm working with capybaras (_Hydrochoerus_hydrochaeris_ : Rodentia) in a breeding station and I'm interested in obtain the e-mails of any Zoo around the world, spetially those wich breed this species. Thank you in advance. Sincerelly yours, -------------------------------------------------------- Lic. Martin R. Alvarez Lab. de Ecologia de Poblaciones Depto de Cs. Biologicas - FCEyN - UBA Ciudad Universitaria, Pab. 2, 4to. p, Lab. 104 (1428) Buenos Aires, Argentina Te: (54-1)- 952-1650 Fax: (54-1)- E-mail: martin@biolo.bg.fcen.uba.ar Administrador de la SAREM-L Enviar el siguiente mensaje a majordomo@ccc.uba.ar - para subscribirse: subscribe sarem (su-e-mail) - para retirarse: unsubscribe sarem (su-e-mail) Si quiere enviar un mensaje a la lista: sarem@ccc.uba.ar =========================================================== From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 12-OCT-1998 01:19:22.45 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cows / horses and dogs Recently I assumed that it would be less dangerous to go into a herd of horses than into a herd of cattle. I got the following answer from Colleen Brady. Here is our correspondence: ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Colleen At 06:49 PM 10/6/98 +0000, you wrote: Please do not assume that it is less dangerous to go into a herd of horses than a herd of cattle, especially with dogs. Most horses are not as acclimated to the presence of dogs in a herd situation as cattle may be. Horses may also approach out to investigate and then turn and kick at the dog with incredible swiftness. Many people have been killed or injured in herds of horses because they assumed that the horses would not follow up investigative behavior with aggression. Thank you very much for your comment! I am happy to learn this. As far as I can see you didn't send a copy to the applied-ethology list.>Why not? May I do it? Regards Hans Haussmann Dr. Haussmann, You are welcome to send a copy on to the list. I just clicked "reply", and I guess that just replies to the writer, not the entire list. ------------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 12-OCT-1998 04:13:15.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Dear All Firstly , to answer Chantel Gaboury=D5s suggestion that it is not =20 possible to measure the strength of motivation animals have; this is=20 incorrect. There is a quite considerable body of research on consumer=20 demand theory which directly measures the effort an animal is willing=20 to expend to gain access to a resource, or the cost it is willing to=20 incur, i.e. the strength of motivation. I do not understand why we=20 might want to use physiological measures when we can quantify the=20 behavioural output directly. =20 For those interested in the subject of consumer demand theory, a=20 couple of recent references are: (please forgive my immodesty at=20 including one of my own - it is simply easier to reference) Sherwin, C.M. and Nicol, C.J. (1998). A demanding task: Using=20 economic techniques to assess animal priorities: A reply to Mason et=20 al. Animal Behaviour 55, 1079-1081 Mason, G. Mc Farland, D. and Garner. J. (1988) A demanding task: =20 Using economic techniques to assess animal priorities. Animal=20 Behaviour 55, 1071-1075. Secondly, I was offended to have my previous comments on=20 anthropomorphism and anthropocentricity discussed under the subject=20 heading =D4anthropoarrogance=D5. Indeed, I have not even criticised any=20 model of animal frustration since to my knowledge, none have been=20 posted here. I have simply put forward a statement of a principle=20 which is adhered to by most people who study animal behaviour based on=20 SCIENTIFIC methodology. I thought one purpose of this bulletin board=20 was to advance the SCIENCE of ethology and animal behaviour. It is=20 easy to show why anthropomorphism can be dangerous in terms of=20 scientific validity, especially when discussing behavioural changes as=20 indicative of possible emotional states. If we accept that a ram=20 increasing its pawing when thwarted at mating indicates frustration,=20 then how should we interpret a paramecium increasing its rate of=20 swimming when it senses food on the other side of a mesh screen but is=20 unable to eat it? Should this not also be interpreted as indicative of frustration? If not, why not? ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 12-OCT-1998 07:18:45.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: frustration in sheep (and others, apparently) Dear All, Could we go right back to the start of this debate, before Prof Morgan started singing? If I remember correctly, then the starting point was that rams 'paw' ewes when they do not achieve an ejaculation quickly enough, and that this 'pawing' was part of normal courtship. I'm not sure I understood all the behaviours which have been mentioned there. I remember 'leg kicks' as part of courtship behaviour. This is a upward movement of an extended front leg. The leg touches to ewe only very gently (I think). When I saw pawing in response to the ram not being able to mate the ewe (because of anogenital covers on the ewe), this was an downwards movement with the hooves of a front foot. The hooves clearly touched the ewe, it looked rather aggressive. The latter behaviour is also used when sheep are trying to make a lying sheep get up. These two behaviours were distinctly different. Regarding an increasing frequency of 'pawing' as opposed to 'leg-kicks' as sign of frustration would not contradict Chris Sherwin's suggestion that the occurrence of a different behaviour is more convincing than an increase in frequency of a 'normal' behaviour. Another example involves a rather dominant old ewe (Alpha-ewe in the group) and a young, inexperienced ram in a serving capacity test (four oestrous ewes and a ram in a pen for 30 minutes; number of ejaculations used as measure of 'serving capacity'). The ewe flirted (approached the ram, offered her backside, looked back invitingly) when the ram was introduced, and got more pushy when he didn't get on with the job. Eventually she turned around and attacked him. I suggest that this can be interpreted as a sign of frustration (frustration-induced aggression). And as for behaviour being adaptive: This one wasn't, since the ram lost any desire to mate with this ewe. No, I shouldn't have said that. He showed no further signs of courtship behaviour, but displayed avoidance behaviour instead, while being chased around the pen. Isn't there is a quote from Shakespear which describes this? Something like "There is no fury..." Hans ____________________________________ Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Tel.: 01224 - 318611 Fax.: 01224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 12-OCT-1998 07:25:56.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Offence. A Flexible Response >If we accept that a ram=20 increasing its pawing when thwarted at mating indicates frustration,=20 then how should we interpret a paramecium increasing its rate of=20 swimming when it senses food on the other side of a mesh screen but is=20 unable to eat it? Should this not also be interpreted as indicative of frustration? If not, why not? The answer to this is of course, the paramecium does not have what has come to be called 'an emotional brain'.=20 The paramecium for example does not get offended. Rolls, Ledoux, Grey and Panksepp are representative of a body of scientists who research the emotional brain. In defining the many functions of emotions Rolls writes this:- The second function proposed is of flexibility of behavioural responses=20 to reinforcing stimuli. The first stage or process in learning a = behavioural=20 response in order (say)to avoid punishment is the classical conditioning = of a emotional response, for the elicitation of fear when the tone = associated=20 with shock sounds.=20 The second stage or process is instrumental learning of an operant=20 response performed in order to terminate the fear-inducing stimulus.=20 The advantage of having two processes is that if the particular operant response which has been learned becomes impossible (for example=20 if a barrier prevents that response), then the organism is still in an=20 emotional state of fear, when the tone sounds and he can learn or=20 perform another instrumental to escape from or terminate the tone.=20 This is preferable to a one-process method of avoidance learning,=20 such as stimulus-motor response learning (e.g. hear tone-jump left), in that with such a one-factor theory the organism would have to=20 accept further experiences of the punishment until he learned=20 another motor response by trial and error learning and he might=20 not survive the punishment a second time in real-life conditions in the natural habitat." (All this applies equally to positive = reinforcement) Christopher Hobbes was thinking along these lines in 1650. "And although understudied men, doe not conceive any motion at all to=20 be there, where the thing moved is invisible, or the space it is moved = in,=20 is (for the shortness of it) insensible, yet that doth not hinder, but = that=20 such Motions are. For let a space be never so little, that which is = moved=20 over a great space, whereof that little one is part, must first be moved = over that. =20 These small beginnings of Motion, within the body of Man, before they = appear=20 in walking, speaking, striking, and other visible actions, are commonly = called=20 ENDEAVOUR." and I say endeavour is motivation and it proceeds by registration of = success and failure, reward and frustration. These events are part of emotional=20 intelligence and are to be seriously considered. Not to do so is to be seriously "understudied". Robin=20 =20 -----Original Message----- From: Chris Sherwin [SMTP:chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] Sent: 12 October 1998 12:12 To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Dear All Firstly , to answer Chantel Gaboury=D5s suggestion that it is not =20 possible to measure the strength of motivation animals have; this is=20 incorrect. There is a quite considerable body of research on consumer=20 demand theory which directly measures the effort an animal is willing=20 to expend to gain access to a resource, or the cost it is willing to=20 incur, i.e. the strength of motivation. I do not understand why we=20 might want to use physiological measures when we can quantify the=20 behavioural output directly. =20 For those interested in the subject of consumer demand theory, a=20 couple of recent references are: (please forgive my immodesty at=20 including one of my own - it is simply easier to reference) Sherwin, C.M. and Nicol, C.J. (1998). A demanding task: Using=20 economic techniques to assess animal priorities: A reply to Mason et=20 al. Animal Behaviour 55, 1079-1081 Mason, G. Mc Farland, D. and Garner. J. (1988) A demanding task: =20 Using economic techniques to assess animal priorities. Animal=20 Behaviour 55, 1071-1075. Secondly, I was offended to have my previous comments on=20 anthropomorphism and anthropocentricity discussed under the subject=20 heading =D4anthropoarrogance=D5. Indeed, I have not even criticised any = model of animal frustration since to my knowledge, none have been=20 posted here. I have simply put forward a statement of a principle=20 which is adhered to by most people who study animal behaviour based on=20 SCIENTIFIC methodology. I thought one purpose of this bulletin board=20 was to advance the SCIENCE of ethology and animal behaviour. It is=20 easy to show why anthropomorphism can be dangerous in terms of=20 scientific validity, especially when discussing behavioural changes as=20 indicative of possible emotional states. If we accept that a ram=20 increasing its pawing when thwarted at mating indicates frustration,=20 then how should we interpret a paramecium increasing its rate of=20 swimming when it senses food on the other side of a mesh screen but is=20 unable to eat it? Should this not also be interpreted as indicative of frustration? If not, why not? ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 12-OCT-1998 10:46:49.10 To: IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se" "Anna Olsson", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: literature on training At 11:09 AM 10/4/98 +0200, Anna Olsson wrote: >Dear all, > >This is a request from a farm animal ethologist to the dog trainers still >hanging on to this list! >snip< >approach to learning theory. What I would really like to read is a >book/article about training and learning, written by somebody who is both a >trainer and schooled in ethology/learning psychology and well-read in the >recent research in the areas. Am I asking too much or does such literature >exist? I'm really looking forward to hear your responses! Dear Anna, You ask a lot, but I believe more people should do this. In America, at least, pet dog trainers are just now becoming familiar w/learning theory's principles. They have, of course, been using learning principles all along to achieve training. Recently, they have begun to use the language of learning theory as well. Some of them do it better than others. My own animal training (pet dogs, competition canine obedience, tracking, canine musical freestyle--dance! and sheep herding) has been enhanced by the work of Lieberman et al on the "marking principle" [Lieberman, D. A. (1993). Learning: Behavior and Cognition. Pacific Grove, CA: Brooks/Cole Publishing Company. PAGES 461-463, 474] In an effort to "reinvent the wheel", dog trainers are finding much success with marking. One of my favorite articles, however, comes from human psychology. [Wolf, M. M., Risley, T. R., & Mees, H. L. (1964). Application of operant conditioning procedures to the behavior problems of an autistic child. Behavior Research and Therapy, 1, 305-312.] In this article, a toy clicker, like the ones currently popular w/dog trainers, is paired with fruit and candy to increase a child's wearing eye glasses. I have also spoken with a local horse trainer who has used a clicker successfully to gentle a colt that was not previously socialized. I think this might appeal to popular press readers. Good luck with your article. Please let me know how it goes. Sincerely, Peggy PS I'd be happy to send you a clicker. Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick, BA, BA, MS (Animals and Public Policy) 406-726-3342 arl3342@montana.com From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 12-OCT-1998 14:28:45.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Chris Sherwin wrote: > > Dear All > > Firstly , to answer Chantel GabouryŐs suggestion that it is not > possible to measure the strength of motivation animals have; this is > incorrect. There is a quite considerable body of research on consumer > demand theory which directly measures the effort an animal is willing > to expend to gain access to a resource, or the cost it is willing to > incur, i.e. the strength of motivation. I do not understand why we > might want to use physiological measures when we can quantify the > behavioural output directly. Dear Chras and others, I did not mean to imply that I believed it impossible to measure the strength of the motivation that animals have. The point I was trying to make is that making a qualitative comment such as "The ram has an increased motivation to mate" (this interpretation put forth in one of the posts, and surely correct) does not give us an indication of what may happen next whereas, in my opinion, saying, "The ram is frustrated" means that the ewe is probably going to receive a head-butt some time very soon. Both statements are qualitative*, but the second phrase gives me more information. If I think of motivation on a scale of 1 to 10, when the ram goes from level 1 motivation to level 2 motivation, I can say that it now has an increased motivation to mate. Similarly, when motivation goes from level 9 to level 10, I can say that there is an increased motivation to mate. In the second case, however, there is also an increased probability that a head-butt to the ram will occur, assuming that a head-butt occurs when motivation to mate is high due to mating behaviour being frustrated. *saying it will bar-press 2 zillion times to have access to a ewe, when before it would only bar-press 1 zillion times is quantitative, but saying an animal is more motivated than before is not…for you can ask "How much more?" I have simply put forward a statement of a principle > which is adhered to by most people who study animal behaviour based on > SCIENTIFIC methodology. I thought one purpose of this bulletin board > was to advance the SCIENCE of ethology and animal behaviour. It is > easy to show why anthropomorphism can be dangerous in terms of > scientific validity, especially when discussing behavioural changes as > indicative of possible emotional states. If we accept that a ram > increasing its pawing when thwarted at mating indicates frustration, > then how should we interpret a paramecium increasing its rate of > swimming when it senses food on the other side of a mesh screen but is > unable to eat it? Should this not also be interpreted as indicative > of frustration? If not, why not? Because it is missing the one organ that generates a mental state: a brain. I am not trying to advocate anthropomorphism. What I think is interesting is trying to tap into certain feelings that come to us when we are observing animals, such as, "I can tell that the ram is about to head-butt the ewe." I think when we feel something like that, there are surely some behavioural sequences that have gone on that we have registered. I am not suggesting that we becoming wishy-washy. I think that these things we "feel" are measurable, we just have trouble doing it, at present (I think we say things like the animal is frustrated because 1) we are trying to label our feeling for ourselves and 2) we are trying to communicate our feeling in terms so that other humans will understand exactly what we mean) I am not suggesting, either, that we write "The animal was frustrated." In the conclusion of a paper. What I am suggesting is that we shouldn't just disregard a gut feeling that we have, that can often be predictive of an ensuing behaviour, instead, I think we should try and identify and measure the cues the animal has given us that enable us to predict what may going to happen next. Chantal. From: IN%"billings@AESOP.RUTGERS.EDU" "Heather J. Billings" 13-OCT-1998 01:02:05.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: sheep and goat sexual behavior There have been several postings about sheep sexual behavior in which the writers have expressed uncertainty about the sexual behaviors displayed by these animals. I've been itching to jump into this debate as I'm preparing to defend my dissertation related to goat sexual behavior in just two weeks, but just haven't had the time until now. Yes, leg kicks are displayed by both sheep and goats as part of normal sexual behavior. I actually prefer calling them foreleg kicks because I found that calling them leg kicks can lead to confusion with kicks with the hind legs, such as is seen in horses and cattle, that are not sexual behavior. A foreleg kick is a straight-legged kick forward. It is not necessarily a very gentle kick, as was previously alluded to (I've been in the way of a few when separating goats at the end of behavior tests and have had the bruises to prove it). I have seen goats paw at the ground, but never within a sexual context - usually they were pushing the bedding around just prior to lying down. Is that what you are referring to by pawing or do you mean leg kicks? The other thing I can think pawing may refer to is that I have occassionally seen a goat place its leg on the back of another in a manner that left me wondering if it was an over-zealous leg kick or a lazy mount attmept or just something else. This hasn't occurred frequently enough for me to have much of an idea how to interpret it. But as I can think of several things pawing may refer to, I wonder if people are referring to several different behaviors thinking it is all the same topic. Can anyone clarify this? If it is something other than foreleg kicks you are describing, maybe it is an indicator of frustration. If it is foreleg kicks, I would like to offer an alternative interpretation. Along with the observation that male sheep and goats mount several times before gaining intromission and may also have several mounts with intromission before ejaculating, this may lead to better sexual preparation of the female for improving fertility. There have been studies in both rats and pigs to support this. Sows had larger litters and trends toward higher conception rates if courted by a boar prior to AI compared with being exposed to a boar in an opposite stall (Hemsworth, et al., 1978 Appl. Anim. Ethol. 4:341-347). Rats receiving 6 or more intromissions prior to receiving an ejaculation had higher conception rates than those receiving 3 or fewere intromissions prior to receiving an ejaculation (Adler, 1969, J. Comp. Physiol. Psych. 69:613-622). This does not mean the male does not get frustrated as it is the female that paces the behavior in rats (and I would conjecture in other species as well, though not as well studied), but it does suggest that the repeated mounting and other sexual behaviors prior to successful copulation are important for the females. I apologize for the length of this message as I tend to prefer bite size bits of information in my email, but I'm not sure when I will next have this much time to share my ideas on this topic in this forum. Heather **************************************** Heather J. Billings Dept. Animal Sciences Rutgers University 84 Lipman Dr. New Brunswick, NJ 08901 billings@aesop.rutgers.edu "Education is not preparation for life; education is life itself." -John Dewey ***************************************** From: IN%"adobly@ulb.ac.be" "Alexandre Dobly" 13-OCT-1998 02:14:38.61 To: IN%"zeac614@uvm.haifa.ac.il", IN%"valery.corbisier@euronet.be", IN%"dbazoo@ps.uib.es", IN%"bonnet@cimrs1.mnhn.fr", IN%"wizzz@www.dma.be" "Benoit Ragoen", IN%"cparbelle@itp.ie", IN%"dong@pobox.com", IN%"Didier.Ranson@ping.be", IN%"dominique.de.jonghe@a CC: Subj: 50th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights Reply-To: udhr50th@amnesty.org.au ********* To celebrate the 50th Anniversary of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights, Amnesty International is collecting signatures for a pledge to support this very important United Nations declaration. Amnesty already has 3 million signatures (real and virtual) world wide, and wants 8 million (which would be 1% of the world's population). The UN Secretary General has already agreed to be present either in person or live by satellite, if he has to be in New York, to receive the pledge as a tangible statement of the people of the world's commitment to an International agenda of human rights. The most simple way to add your name to the pledge is to send an email to udhr50th@amnesty.org.au Put YOUR NAME in the SUBJECT, and cut and paste the following text in the MESSAGE: "I support the rights and freedoms in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights for all people, everywhere." Forward this message to as many people as you can From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 13-OCT-1998 03:11:52.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Hi, just a few thoughts. It is my impression that the debate is due to a lack of understanding (on my side first of all) of what "motivation" and "frustration" should be. Thinking about humans should not be negatively labelled "anthropomorphism" by itself, because it can trigger our thinking and understanding. After all, human brains are the only ones that we have some experience of. Thinking about humans becomes dangerous only when we _explain_ animal behaviour with the human feelings without trying to go further. In the present case, humans experience frustration when they cannot put into action a behaviour they are motivated to perform. Knowing that a human being is frustrated has some predictive power relative to that human being's behaviour, e.g. more aggressive than non-frustrated individuals. Two points are in order: 1) given the observation about humans, what can we say about animals? (Possible answers go from "nothing" to "it's the same") 2) Our _observations_ about humans (e.g. frustration leads to aggressive behaviour) are not _explanations_ for humans either, let alone animals. We have little idea about what goes on in the brain and the rest of the body when we experience frustration. With respect to point one, I would say that if comparison with humans enables us to predict something about the animals, then the comparison is useful. This brings us to point two: given that the _observations_ about animals and humans share some common points, we may try to find a common _explanation_. Cheers to all, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"Libby20@aol.com" 13-OCT-1998 03:26:22.39 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE meeting - full programme This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_i8zk2GkDhopQVItIA9CdVA) Content-id: <0_908270742@inet_out.mail.aol.com.1> Content-type: text/plain; charset=US-ASCII Dear All, Attached is the programme for the ISAE UK/EIRE regional meeting. This will be held in Lecture Theatre 2, The Royal Vet College, Royal College Street, Camden Town, London on Wednesday 2nd December. It costs only ten pounds to attend. There is no pre-registration, but please arrive a bit early to allow for payment before the first talk starts at 10.00. To give me an idea of numbers attending, it would be really useful if you could drop me a quick email if you are planning to come. Thanks a lot, and contact me if you have any questions, Libby Hunter. --Boundary_(ID_i8zk2GkDhopQVItIA9CdVA) Content-id: <0_908270742@inet_out.mail.aol.com.2> Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="ISAEPROG.DOC" Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: base64 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAAEQAAAAAA AAAAEAAAEgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAABAAAAD///////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA --Boundary_(ID_i8zk2GkDhopQVItIA9CdVA)-- From: IN%"rasmus.lang-ree@nrf.no" "Rasmus Lang-Ree" 13-OCT-1998 05:42:48.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Slatted floors and welfare for cattle Hello! Although I have been a part of this discussion group for some time this is my first request and I start with a short presentation: Veternarian, head of a 3-year project called Animal Welfare Ombudsman. This project is a cooperation between 5 agricultural organisations and the Norwegian Veterinary Association. In Norway totally slatted area have been common for fattening bulls and heifers kept in groups. From an animal welfare point of view we think there are some negative aspects with this system and therefore want to change to systems with lying area of solid floors or seperate cubicles for each animal in the group. I have got some information that the European Union are working on a directive which will not - after a transitional period - allow totally slatted floors for bulls and heifers. Do any of you have any information about the progress in this matter ? Is totally slatted floors prohibited i national regulations in some countries ? Do any of you know of ongoing research on welfare and health effects by this system (although we have tried to review the research in this area I will appreciate referencies). Rasmus Lang-Ree From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 13-OCT-1998 07:39:07.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: copyright/e-journals Dear All, The information presented below was recently posted on PSYC@PUCC.BITNET (Brain and Behavioral Science). The Chronicle of Higher Education article has some interesting comments about who should control copyright of scientific articles. I find the article interesting from the viewpoint of recent discussion about a possible change in policy by the journal of Animal Behaviour. >>>>> (1) There have been some very important developments in the area of Web archiving of scientific papers in this last month. Please see: Science: http://www.cogsci.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/science.html Nature: http://www.cogsci.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/nature.html American Scientist: http://www.cogsci.soton.ac.uk/~harnad/amlet.html Chronicle of Higher Education: http://www.chronicle.com/free/v45/i04/04a02901.htm >>>>>> ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin ws31@umail.umd.edu From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 13-OCT-1998 08:03:58.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: IN%"M.Papini@TCU.EDU" Subj: "Correct Biological Science" Dear All, The following is a recent post by Papini, Mauricio to the list of the International Society for Comparative Psychology : >>>>>>>>> 'Academically Correct Biological Sciences' is an article by S. Vogel that appeared in the latest issue of the American Scientist (Nov-Dec). Many of his arguments are worth thinking about. Some key ideas: -'Academically correct' biology is molecular, views progress as incremental accretion of detail, immediate goal is human therapy, and it is entrepreneurial in its modus operandi. -Science without data is unimaginable, but data are not science. Great generalizations do not necessarily follow from the accumulation of data. -The history of science tells us that few major conceptual advances were driven by anticipation of immediate utility (Harvey, Darwin, Mendel). -There is a pernicious attitude: good science costs large amounts of money and the quality of scientists can be judged by the amount of funds they raise. -This attitude tends toward routine, data-intensive, applied projects and it discourages risk-taking, creativity and shifts of direction. -This system encourages the disguised use of grad students as technicians... -... and it subverts the historically proper and useful role of universities as institutions in which the creation of knowledge is insulated from cries for immediately tangible yield. >>>>>>>>>>> ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin ws31@umail.umd.edu From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 13-OCT-1998 08:59:47.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: copyright/e-journals Hi to everyone, > The Chronicle of Higher Education article has some > interesting comments about who should control copyright of > scientific articles. I find the article interesting from > the viewpoint of recent discussion about a possible > change in policy by the journal of Animal Behaviour. I am dealing with Animal Behaviour about the copyright of two papers of mine. The staff at AB has been very kind and willing to help me, but ultimately the question has been passed to the publisher, Academic Press. Formally, the copyright owner is ASAB (Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour), but the managing of copyright issues is passed to Academic Press. So far I have otbtained the permission to post my work on my webpages, even if this is more or less in conflict with the Notice published in the last pages of AB. Angela Turner, managing editor of AB, agreed that the Notice should be more clear. I also asked that I can post my articles on public archives which are run without commercial purpose (they are in fact run by scientists as a facility to other scientists). This question is now under consideration by Academic Press, and I will be happy to let everyone know about the results. In the future, I will propose to AB to agree on a different copyright statement (leaving non-commerical distribution of the papers unrestricted) upon submission of a paper. I will have a paper ready for in a couple of weeks, and I'll post the results on the list. Cheers, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"alp18@cus.cam.ac.uk" 13-OCT-1998 09:12:05.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Anthrozoos 11(3) Anthrozo=F6s A Multidisciplinary Journal of the Interactions of People and Animals =A9 Delta Society ISSN 0892-7936 Published in association with the International Association of Human-Animal Interaction Organizations. Contents Volume 11 (3) 1998 Out now *Commentary A relational approach to the human-animal bond Margot Lasher pp. 130-133 *Reviews and Research Reports Bestial wisdom and human tragedy: The genesis of the animal epic Boria Sax pp. 134-141 Judgments of cruelty toward animals: Sex differences and effect of awareness of suffering Adelma M. Hill and Nathan Lalich pp. 142-147 An integrative approach to personality research in anthrozoology: Ratings of six species of pets and their owners Samuel D. Gosling and Allison V. Bonnenburg pp. 148-156 Dogs and cats in animal shelters in Japan Lynette A. Hart, Tomoko Takayanagi and Chizuko Yamaguchi pp. 157-163 *Short Communications Translocation effects on the behavior of black-tailed prairie dogs (Cynomys ludovicianus) John P. Farrar, Karin L. Coleman, Marc Bekoff and Eric Stone pp. 164-167 Pet ownership and health status of elderly in the community Patricia Crowley-Robinson and Judith K. Blackshaw pp. 168-171 *Clinical Notes A human-animal intervention team approach to animal-assisted therapy Ben P. Granger, Lori Kogan, Jennifer Fitchett and Kim Helmer pp. 172-176 *Book Reviews Beyond Boundaries: Humans and Animals The Wild Animal Story **************** Anthrozo=F6s is a quarterly, peer-reviewed publication whose focus is to report the results of studies, from a wide array of disciplines, on the interactions of people and animals. Academic disciplines represented include: anthropology, archaeozoology, art and literature, education, ethology, history, human medicine, psychology, sociology and veterinary medicine. The journal is indexed in Animal Behavior Abstracts, CAB Abstracts, Current Advances in Ecological & Environmental Periodicals, Bibliography, Indian Journal of Veterinary Surgery, Linguistics and Language Behavior Abstracts, Psychological Abstracts, Referativinyi Zhurnal: Biologia, Science Citation Index, Sociological Abstracts, Current Contents/Social & Behavioral Sciences=AE, Focus on Veterinary Science and Medicine=81, Social Science Citation Index, and Veterinary Bulletin. =46ull instructions for authors can be obtained from the Editor-In-Chief: Anthony L. Podberscek, University of Cambridge, Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, Madingley Road, Cambridge, CB3 0ES, UK. Phone: (0) 1223 33 0846; fax: (0) 1223 33 0886; email: alp18@cus.cam.ac.uk Send all manuscripts, books for review and correspondence to the Editor-in-Chief. Subscription information: Individual rate (USA): $40 per annum Individual rate (outside USA): $50 per annum Members of ISAZ (International Society for Anthrozoology) are entitled to a 10% discount to annual subscriptions and should use the form provided by the society. Institution rate (USA): $55 Institution rate (outside of USA): $65 * Interested in subscribing or in obtaining a free sample copy of the journal? Then contact: Delta Society, 289 Perimeter Road East, Renton, WA 98055-1329, USA or email: deltasociety@cis.compuserve.com Web page: http://www.deltasociety.org oo------------------------------------------------------------------ Anthony L. Podberscek University of Cambridge Department of Clinical Veterinary Medicine Madingley Road Cambridge CB3 OES UK ph:(01223) 33 0846 fax: (01223) 33 0886 e-mail: alp18@cus.cam.ac.uk 'We're going to laugh and play and fill the house with children' Dangerous Women -------------------------------------------------------------------oo From: IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk" "marie.haskell" 13-OCT-1998 11:00:46.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Dear All, I hate to be pedantic at this late stage, but there seems to be a discrepancy between some of the definitions of frustration and what seems to have been interpreted as frustration of sexual behaviour, and I wonder whether this isn't an interesting point. One of the big names in the psychology of frustration is A. Amsel (University of Texas) who seems to have described frustration in an experimental set-up way back in the 1950s and has published dozens of papers and a book on the subject (appropriately titled 'Frustration theory') since. He says: Frustration is..a temporary state that results when a response is non-reinforced (or nonrewarded) in the presence of a reward expectancy.' This means that the animal reacts in an emotional manner (frustration) when it doesn't get what it expects. Does this means that the ram knows what to expect when he approaches a ewe? Does he do this pawing the very first time that he performs mating behaviour? Or does he only do the pawing behaviour if he doesn't achieve a mating only when he has had experience of successful matings? If the pawing appears in the first mating attempts, you might not necessarily conclude that it is frustration, but a ritualized part of the courtship behaviour. Is there more pawing when the situation is such that he ought to expect a successful mating (ie receptive ewe in appropriate posture but with one of Hans' nasty ano-genital covers (mean trick Hans!)? And I guess my question is the same for the frustration of other sexual behaviours. In order to comply with the definition (and maybe it needs a revamp) the animal ought to have an expectation of the consequences of its action. Otherwise, one ought to explore the possibility that it is all rather more hard-wired than emotional So. I just thought that the point for the psychological definition might be useful (or naive?)! Best wishes, Marie Marie Haskell (Roslin Institute, Edinburgh. UK) From: IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk" "marie.haskell" 13-OCT-1998 13:12:46.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Dear All, I hate to be pedantic at this late stage, but there seems to be a discrepancy between some of the definitions of frustration and what seems to have been interpreted as frustration of sexual behaviour, and I wonder whether this isn't an interesting point. One of the big names in the psychology of frustration is A. Amsel (University of Texas) who seems to have described frustration in an experimental set-up way back in the 1950s and has published dozens of papers and a book on the subject (appropriately titled 'Frustration theory') since. He says: Frustration is..a temporary state that results when a response is non-reinforced (or nonrewarded) in the presence of a reward expectancy.' This means that the animal reacts in an emotional manner (frustration) when it doesn't get what it expects. Does this means that the ram knows what to expect when he approaches a ewe? Does he do this pawing the very first time that he performs mating behaviour? Or does he only do the pawing behaviour if he doesn't achieve a mating only when he has had experience of successful matings? If the pawing appears in the first mating attempts, you might not necessarily conclude that it is frustration, but a ritualized part of the courtship behaviour. Is there more pawing when the situation is such that he ought to expect a successful mating (ie receptive ewe in appropriate posture but with one of Hans' nasty ano-genital covers (mean trick Hans!)? And I guess my question is the same for the frustration of other sexual behaviours. In order to comply with the definition (and maybe it needs a revamp) the animal ought to have an expectation of the consequences of its action. Otherwise, one ought to explore the possibility that it is all rather more hard-wired than emotional So. I just thought that the point for the psychological definition might be useful (or naive?)! Best wishes, Marie Marie Haskell (Roslin Institute, Edinburgh. UK) From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 13-OCT-1998 14:31:02.68 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cows / horses and dogs In a message dated 98-10-12 03:28:06 EDT, you write: << Please do not assume that it is less dangerous to go into a herd of horses than a herd of cattle, especially with dogs. Most horses are not as acclimated to the presence of dogs in a herd situation as cattle may be. Horses may also approach out to investigate and then turn and kick at the dog with incredible swiftness. Many people have been killed or injured in herds of horses because they assumed that the horses would not follow up investigative behavior with aggression. >> I once lived in an area rife with stray dogs and wild dog packs. I kept a Morgan gelding pastured with Nubian dairy goats. Any dog(s) that entered the pasture were immediately attacked by the horse, whose chosen method of attack was to strike with his front hooves. He killed several dogs. No investigative behavior, just all out territorial aggression. Entering the pasture with a dog was a good way to get hurt by just that single horse, so can't imagine a herd. The horse was fine with dogs if under saddle or halter led/tied (in which case he would kick only if severely harrassed, but he would not initiate the contest or rear and strike with front hooves). Kathy Hughes From: IN%"chris.gotman@sympatico.ca" 13-OCT-1998 19:14:01.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: frustration in sheep (and adaptive value) Dear Hans Erhard, You wrote: "Eventually she turned around and attacked him. I suggest that this can be interpreted as a sign of frustration (frustration-induced aggression). And as for behaviour being adaptive: This one wasn't, since the ram lost any desire to mate with this ewe. No, I shouldn't have said that. He showed no further signs of courtship behaviour, but displayed avoidance behaviour instead, while being chased around the pen." I disagree with your interpretation of adaptive value of the ewe's interaction with the inexperienced ram. In order to maximize her fitness, the ewe must select the "best" ram she can find to fertilize her ovae. The inexperienced ram didn't meet criteria and was repulsed. The ewe is showing she'd rather invest in some other ram. Repulsing the rejects is highly adaptive, especially when the clutch size is one, and parential investment lasts an entire year or more. Her emotional state may have been one of frustration, but the outcome is clear, regardless of the mechanism: selecting against inept rams, and remaining available for an experienced ram. sincerely, Chris Gotman BSc, Acadia U. class of 86 From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 14-OCT-1998 02:04:09.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: frustration in sheep (and adaptive value) Chris Gotman wrote: > I disagree with your interpretation of adaptive value of the ewe's > interaction with the inexperienced ram. ........... Repulsing the > rejects is highly adaptive, especially when the clutch size is one, and > parential investment lasts an entire year or more. > > Her emotional state may have been one of frustration, but the outcome > is clear, regardless of the mechanism: selecting against inept rams, and > remaining available for an experienced ram. Point taken, of course you're right. I should have thought for a bit longer before I posted the message. My thoughts when I wrote it were: The ewe wants to be mated (as indicated by her courtship behaviour), the ram doesn't mate her, she butts and bullies him. If her goal is to be mated, then bullying the ram is the wrong approach. It decreased the likelihood of her being mated by this ram to zero. But if her goal is high-quality offspring, which is what is used to assess whether a behaviour is adaptive, then she did the right thing, her behaviour was adaptive. Thanks for making that clear and apologies for my sloppy wording. Hans ____________________________________ Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Tel.: 01224 - 318611 Fax.: 01224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 14-OCT-1998 02:12:05.95 To: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cows / horses and dogs | In a message dated 98-10-12 03:28:06 EDT, you write: | | << Please do not assume that it is less dangerous to go into a herd of horses | than a herd of cattle, especially with dogs. Most horses are not as | acclimated to the presence of dogs in a herd situation as cattle may be. | Horses may also approach out to investigate and then turn and kick at the | dog with incredible swiftness. Many people have been killed or injured in | herds of horses because they assumed that the horses would not follow up | investigative behavior with aggression. >> | | I once lived in an area rife with stray dogs and wild dog packs. I kept a | Morgan gelding pastured with Nubian dairy goats. Any dog(s) that entered the | pasture were immediately attacked by the horse, whose chosen method of attack | was to strike with his front hooves. He killed several dogs. No | investigative behavior, just all out territorial aggression. Entering the | pasture with a dog was a good way to get hurt by just that single horse, so | can't imagine a herd. The horse was fine with dogs if under saddle or halter | led/tied (in which case he would kick only if severely harrassed, but he would | not initiate the contest or rear and strike with front hooves). | | Kathy Hughes Thanks for the interesting observation! Some thoughts: What means "so can't imagine a herd" ? I think it is not clear whether horses in a herd would also attack. The attacks of a single horse are not strictly "mobbing" because mobbing is a herd behaviour. Observations on a single animal are not too informative about the ethogram of the species. The individual may have a rather special history, experience or even trainig. Hans Haussmann From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 14-OCT-1998 03:17:54.03 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cows / horses and dogs In a message dated 98-10-14 04:11:25 EDT, you write: << Thanks for the interesting observation! Some thoughts: What means "so can't imagine a herd" ? I think it is not clear whether horses in a herd would also attack. The attacks of a single horse are not strictly "mobbing" because mobbing is a herd behaviour. Observations on a single animal are not too informative about the ethogram of the species. The individual may have a rather special history, experience or even trainig. >> Prior to my purchasing this horse he was pastured with four others, and I was told he exhibited the same behavior. He did, as you suggest, have a special experience and that was that he was gelded late. Rearing and striking with front hooves is a stallion behavior from my observation and I rather think he fancied himself the "herd" stallion, even after being gelded and kept with goats as his herd mates! But I can imagine the kicks that other horses would be making at the dogs, and it would be quite a melee to be caught in. I also think that small pastures contribute to the behavior, if there was more room to flee, I think they might choose to simply outrun the dogs. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" 14-OCT-1998 03:42:16.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Marie wrote: > A. Frustration is..a > temporary state that results when a response is non-reinforced (or nonrewarded) > in the presence of a reward expectancy.' (A. Amsel) Is'nt frustration characterised by a change in response, eg. aggression as a result of the withdrawal of the opportunity for reinforcement - hence the 'kicks' as opposed to 'pawing' as indicated I think by Chris? > Does this means that the ram knows what to expect when he approaches a ewe? > Does he do this pawing the very first time that he performs mating behaviour? > Or does he only do the pawing behaviour if he doesn't achieve a mating only > when he has had experience of successful matings? If the pawing appears in the > first mating attempts, you might not necessarily conclude that it is > frustration, but a ritualized part of the courtship behaviour. Is there more > pawing when the situation is such that he ought to expect a successful mating > (ie receptive ewe in appropriate posture but with one of Hans' nasty > ano-genital covers (mean trick Hans!)? Initial pawing may be ritualized courtship behaviour, more vigorous pawing may be result of greater expectation (learning), whereas if the ram goes and butts the barn door we might conclude he is frustrated? Dale Dale Arey GIBiol PhD SAC Animal Biology Division Ferguson Building Craibstone Aberdeen AB21 9YA UK Tel: 01224 711058 From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 14-OCT-1998 05:01:18.06 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: cows/horses/dogs Remember the "Quadrupedentest" from Klaus Zeeb in the sixties? Grandad Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk" "marie.haskell" 14-OCT-1998 05:19:25.62 To: IN%"/C=GB/ADMD=/PRMD=UK.AC/O=sac/OU=ab/PN=d.arey/%x400dmw@bbsrc.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Dear Dale and applied-ethology netters, The experimental psychology people would say that aggression is the result of frustration, or more technically of thwarting a motivated behaviour. There are obviously others such as increased motivation to escape or perhaps the gakel-call that isolated hens give (From the work of Koene and Zimmerman). And there do seem to be two types of front foot movements here: fore-leg kicks which may be part of a courtship routine and pawing, which seems to occur if intromission doesn't happen (and this as you say may be frustration). So I was wondering whether the increased pawing only occurs when the ram is experienced and knows what to expect and can't get it. What do inexperienced rams do? Marie Marie Haskell Roslin Institute (Edinburgh) U.K. From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 14-OCT-1998 07:45:43.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Hello Chris! > Date sent: Mon, 12 Oct 1998 11:12:22 +0000 > From: Chris Sherwin > Subject: motivation/frustration/anthropo... > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Send reply to: chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk > Priority: NORMAL > Firstly , to answer Chantel Gaboury+s suggestion that it is not > possible to measure the strength of motivation animals have; this is > incorrect. There is a quite considerable body of research on consumer > demand theory which directly measures the effort an animal is willing > to expend to gain access to a resource, or the cost it is willing to > incur, i.e. the strength of motivation. Whenever I think of this, I am thrown back to a supervisor situation I had. This person wanted to know which area I preferrred to work in and how much I wanted that area. (They suspected, incorrectly, that I was saying what they wanted to hear and not what I truly wanted). To find out the info, they used a "frustration" scenario to gauge the depth of my reaction at not getting something. I knew this and, out of disgust, withdrew from the situation because I did not want to "play". My behaviour was interrupted as decision making re: the position rather than decision making re: leaving the manipulation. I think of this everytime I must "decide" what decision an animal is making and why they are making that decision. Maybe they are ahead of the game and just don't want to participate (or are making decisions on a level that I cannot imagine). DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"MouseNY22@aol.com" 14-OCT-1998 07:46:14.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Blue Jays Hi everyone -- I'm an animal behavior student at Binghamton University and I'm about to begin an independant project on Blue Jays. I was hoping that some of you might have some suggestions on how to begin, or possible experiments I could perform.... I've made a recording of about 5 different calls made by this bird, and was thinking of playing them back and watching for the reactions of the flock, in order to learn what each call is for. I also have a recording of a red- shouldered hawk, AND a Blue Jay mimicking the red-shouldered hawk -- I was wondering if it would be a good project if I tried to determine whether Blue Jays react differently to a real hawk's call than they would to another Blue Jay's hawk call. My inexperience is a barrier here..... I have lots of small ideas but I'm not sure how to put them into action. Any suggestions?? Thanks, Andrea From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 14-OCT-1998 08:10:29.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Hi Marie! > Date sent: Wed, 14 Oct 1998 12:14:13 +0100 > From: "marie.haskell" > Subject: Re: motivation/frustration/anthropo... > To: /C=GB/ADMD=/PRMD=UK.AC/O=sac/OU=ab/PN=d.arey/%x400dmw@bbsrc.ac.uk, > applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Priority: normal > The experimental psychology people would say that aggression is the result of > frustration, or more technically of thwarting a motivated behaviour. If the exp. psych people would say this, then they are not telling you the entire story. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"research@scz.org" "Emily Weiss" 14-OCT-1998 08:59:44.37 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: internship opportunity This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_PTp8tmiiooiDeb7A1jJIow) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable The department of Behavior and Research at the Sedgwick County Zoo is = pleased to announce an internship program for students studying animal = behavior. The program is designed to train students to conduct research, = train animals and improve welfare in the zoo setting. Projects range = from observational studies of animals in their environments, to = biological studies of such diverse topics as stress and reproduction.=20 Students will need to meet the following requirements: Juniors, seniors, = and graduate students in the fields of comparative psychology, = psychobiology, zoology and related fields. Students must have had at = least one year of research methods, one semester of animal behavior, and = learning. A GPA of at least 3.0 is recommended. Students need to be = self-starters and self-motivators. Students need to be able to work = flexible and sometimes unusual hours. Students need to have good library = skills.=20 Students will be expected to write proposals, gather data, conduct = literature searches, and other such research responsibilities. Students = will also be involved with training various species of animals. While = it is expected for students to understand the basics of these areas, = they will be taught how to conduct such tasks. Some projects will call = for hands on opportunities with the zoo collection, while other projects = will focus more on samples and/or observation. Emily Weiss Curator of Behavior & Research Sedgwick County Zoo Wichita Ks, 67212 (316) 942-2212 ex 257 --Boundary_(ID_PTp8tmiiooiDeb7A1jJIow) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

The department of Behavior and Research at the Sedgwick County Zoo is = pleased=20 to announce an internship program for students studying animal behavior. = The=20 program is designed to train students to conduct research, train animals = and=20 improve welfare in the zoo setting. Projects range from observational = studies of=20 animals in their environments, to biological studies of such diverse = topics as=20 stress and reproduction.

Students will need to meet the following requirements: Juniors, = seniors, and=20 graduate students in the fields of comparative psychology, = psychobiology,=20 zoology and related fields. Students must have had at least one year of = research=20 methods, one semester of animal behavior, and learning. A GPA of at = least 3.0 is=20 recommended. Students need to be self-starters and self-motivators. = Students=20 need to be able to work flexible and sometimes unusual hours. Students = need to=20 have good library skills.

Students will be expected to write proposals, gather = data,=20 conduct literature searches, and other such research responsibilities. = Students=20 will also be involved with training various species of animals.  = While it=20 is expected for students to understand the basics of these areas, they = will be=20 taught how to conduct such tasks. Some projects will call for hands on=20 opportunities with the zoo collection, while other projects will focus = more on=20 samples and/or observation.

 
 
Emily Weiss
Curator of Behavior = &=20 Research
Sedgwick County Zoo
Wichita Ks, 67212
(316) 942-2212 = ex=20 257
--Boundary_(ID_PTp8tmiiooiDeb7A1jJIow)-- From: IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk" "marie.haskell" 14-OCT-1998 11:16:28.21 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Dear Deb, You wrote: >Hi Marie! >> The experimental psychology people would say that aggression is the result of >> frustration, or more technically of thwarting a motivated behaviour. > > If the exp. psych people would say this, then they are not >telling you the entire story. > > >DebMcW > Um, yes. Does this mean: a. You are suspicious of experimental psychologists' interpretations of their results? b. You are suspicious of experimental psychologists' methods? c. You are plain ordinary suspicious of experimental psychologists as a species? d. None of the above. Can you clarify please? Cheers, Marie From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 14-OCT-1998 13:05:52.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Blue Jays > I'm an animal behavior student at Binghamton University and I'm about to begin > an independant project on Blue Jays. I was hoping that some of you might have > some suggestions on how to begin, Hello Andrea - You have chosen a fascinating animal to study! I hope you have had the opportunity to read Berndt Heinrich's "Ravens in Winter" to give you an idea of methodology in conducting your field research on your corvid interest. You will find that studies such as the one you are suggesting take a v-e-r-y long time to develop and follow through with, so don't bite off more than you can chew :o) As you know, corvids are extremely bright and curious birds. I wonder how quickly it will take for them to discover that the source of the sounds are coming from the girl behind the bushes (!) and begin to respond more to your presence than the calls themselves. (Although I do think your question of whether jays will respond differently to either type of call is a very good one). Some other ideas in case you are still shopping: -Jays' mobbing behavior is fascinating and easy to observe. (I have recently observed a group of jays mobbing a cooper's hawk w/o success until their screams called in 2 ravens to aid them, so this is fresh in my mind). Heinrich's book poses many good questions/observations of corvids use of soliciting other corvids for various reasons. -The corvids' caching behavior is full of wonderful curiousities. A little bit of research in this will yield some very good reading. -I have experimented with corvids (jays, ravens and crows) ability to distinquish between shapes and colors in a primitive form of "shell game" and found the jays to equal the other corvids in remembering where their treat was hidden. This, of course, was with non-releasables, which may or may not be available to you. If you need further assistance, I would be happy to put you in contact with an associate who has extensive experience with corvids. Best of luck and enjoy the learning. Donna Reynolds Lindsay Wildlife Musem Walnut Creek, CA From: IN%"Simon.Gadbois@acadiau.ca" 14-OCT-1998 15:05:40.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... > >> The experimental psychology people would say that aggression is the result > of > >> frustration, or more technically of thwarting a motivated behaviour. > > > > If the exp. psych people would say this, then they are not > >telling you the entire story. > > > > > >DebMcW > > This is a ridiculous over-generalization! Psychology (experimental or psychological), neuroscience and ethology are agreeing/converging much more that this comment would suggest!!! One-sided perspective are not typical of experimental psychology anyway... Simon Gadbois (psychobiology and ethology of aggression) -- Simon Gadbois Web site / site "web": http://Simon.Gadbois.com/ Department of Psychology Acadia University Wolfville, Nova Scotia B0P 1X0 Office 303, Horton Hall 902-585-1405 (office) 902-585-1078 (fax) 902-542-0573 (home) Simon.Gadbois@acadiau.ca Simon@Gadbois.com From: IN%"Simon.Gadbois@acadiau.ca" 14-OCT-1998 15:14:04.11 To: IN%"Simon.Gadbois@acadiau.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... > This is a ridiculous over-generalization! Psychology (experimental or > psychological), I meant "or physiological" > > -- > Simon Gadbois > > Web site / site "web": http://Simon.Gadbois.com/ > > Department of Psychology > Acadia University > Wolfville, Nova Scotia > B0P 1X0 > > Office 303, Horton Hall > 902-585-1405 (office) > 902-585-1078 (fax) > 902-542-0573 (home) > Simon.Gadbois@acadiau.ca > Simon@Gadbois.com -- Simon Gadbois Web site / site "web": http://Simon.Gadbois.com/ Department of Psychology Acadia University Wolfville, Nova Scotia B0P 1X0 Office 303, Horton Hall 902-585-1405 (office) 902-585-1078 (fax) 902-542-0573 (home) Simon.Gadbois@acadiau.ca Simon@Gadbois.com From: IN%"tstawar@concentric.net" "tstawar" 14-OCT-1998 15:58:16.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... The experimental psychology people would say that aggression is the result of frustration, or more technically of thwarting a motivated behaviour. If the exp. psych people would say this, then they are not telling you the entire story. DebMcW This is a ridiculous over-generalization! Psychology (experimental or psychological), neuroscience and ethology are agreeing/converging much more that this comment would suggest!!! One-sided perspective are not typical of experimental psychology anyway... Simon Gadbois The Frustration-Aggression Hypothesis (Dollard, Doob, Miller, Mower, and Sears) is 1939 experimental S-R psychology. While frustration may certain be a contributing factor in many forms of aggression, surely we are well beyond single-factor causative theorizing for such a complex behavior. Terry Stawar Peace River Center Lakeland, Florida tstawar@bigfoot.com From: IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk" "marie.haskell" 15-OCT-1998 02:11:34.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Dear Terry and other interested parties, The Frustration-Aggression Hypothesis (Dollard, Doob, Miller, Mower, and Sears, 1939), is, as you say, getting on a bit in years. There was a discussion on this list a few months ago about the situations in which aggression is expressed, and frustration was only one of them. Conversely, as I tried to point out, aggression is not the only expression of frustration (or probably the consequences of frustration). Some say that thwarting raises the general arousal and aggression is just one way of expressing this increased arousal. Pacing up and down is another. Gakel-calling another perhaps. On the subject of experimental psychology: although I think that the conditions that the experiments are done in are a long way from the farm/zoo/natural conditions, there are some very interesting concepts in that subject that bear looking at. Not to mention that some of the most exquisitely designed experiments with control groups for absolutely everything exist in experimental psychology, perhaps because they are in the laboratory setting. Yes, Jeff I did omit the 'all of the above' clause in my list to Deb McW. Cheers, Marie From: IN%"rebecca.ledger@brunel.ac.uk" 15-OCT-1998 06:30:12.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: taste aversion in dogs Hello everyone, I'm looking for evidence of one-trial conditioned aversion in dogs, specifically taste aversion. Can anyone recommend any references which have investigated this in the domestic dog? I have heard that there may be a paper somewhere which has demonstrated that young coyotes with no previous experience of sheep meat can develop this type of aversion, but that older, more experienced coyotes and dogs do not. I am already aware of the paper by Gustavson et al that apperared in Science in 1974, but if anyone can suggest further references I would be very grateful. Thank you in advance Rebecca Ledger Dept. of Animal Science De Montfort University, Lincoln Caythorpe Campus Grantham Lincs. UK From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@nlh10.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" 15-OCT-1998 06:50:32.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: taste aversion in dogs Dear Rebecca, At 13:26 15.10.1998 +0100, you wrote: >Hello everyone, >I'm looking for evidence of one-trial conditioned aversion in dogs, >specifically taste aversion. Can anyone recommend any references which >have investigated this in the domestic dog? See this paper: Hansen, I., Bakken, M. and Braastad, B.O. 1997. Failure of LiCl-conditioned taste aversion to prevent dogs from attacking sheep. Appl.Anim.Behav.Sci., 54: 251-256. We tested LiCl as an aversive conditioned stimulus in Husky dogs, as such dogs could not be trained efficiently by electric shock collars to avoid attacking sheep on pasture. This was a small pilot study. The LiCl seemed to be aversive to the dogs, but they continued chasing sheep. We suggest that modification of the methods might be worth trying. However, the LiCl had some undesired effects on the dog's behaviour, so this kind of drug should be used carefully (cfr. the paper). Bjarne Braastad ********************************************************** Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) Associate Professor of Ethology Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 http://www.nlh.no/Institutt/IHF/presside/Braastad.htm ********************************************************** From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 15-OCT-1998 09:59:19.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Hello Marie!! > From: "marie.haskell" > Priority: normal > Subject: Re: motivation/frustration/anthropo... > To: DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA, applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Date sent: Wed, 14 Oct 98 18:15:20 +0100 Re: exp. psych: aggression results from frustration > Dear Deb, > Does this mean: > a. You are suspicious of experimental psychologists' interpretations of their > results? Suspicious is not the correct term. I have a psych background and know the fallacies first hand (psych people out there - wait until you read the rest before you start typing). Psychology has come a long way and is still very much developing. Much roots, however, still cling to stimulus-responses (S- R) answers. S-R explanations are deficient in that they fail to see the whole creature including past and present influences as well as possible future influences. We must keep in mind, for example, previous "results" that claimed to have conditioned cats to rub on their cages (as opposed to this is a fundamental behaviour of cats). > b. You are suspicious of experimental psychologists' methods? See above. > c. You are plain ordinary suspicious of experimental psychologists as a > species? see above Then, also, is the ineluctable failure of scientific objectivism. The developmental history of exp. psych's has included (still includes) the need to see themselves as objective in order to be scientific. Whereas, it is more likely that we must see how we are not objective in order to be scientific. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 15-OCT-1998 10:03:19.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Inferring a mental state Hi Chantal! > Date sent: Thu, 15 Oct 1998 01:07:45 -0400 > From: Chantal Gaboury > Send reply to: cgaboury@total.net > To: Deborah McWilliams > Subject: Re: Inferring a mental state > Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > > If an organism is perceiving a reliable indicator from another > > indicator, then would that really be inference? > > > > DebMcW > > (If I understood your question correctly): A mental state can never be > anything but inferred (Defn: to reach an opionion from facts or > reasoning, The Oxford Paperback Dictionary, 3rd ed. 1988) since the mind > is intangible. Ah, got me on the definition! I would argue that we can get tangible evidence of physical perception and then it would not be inferential. If the organism is perceiving based on a reliable indicator, then that indicator (because it is reliable) is also not inferential. dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 15-OCT-1998 11:39:00.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Hi to everyone, I'd like to comment a little on this. > Psychology has come a long way and is still very much developing. > Much roots, however, still cling to stimulus-responses (S- > R) answers. S-R explanations are deficient in that they fail to see > the whole creature including past and present influences as well as > possible future influences. One has of course not to understand that ethology never did mistakes, I do not think this was the meaning. For example, Lorenz's idea of "releasing mechanism" seems very close in concept to the S-R approach: one stimulus releases one response. (This is _not_ against the poor old guy. S-R is a _logical_possibility_ and therefore was worth considering. The error is in insisting on it when it fails...) > Then, also, is the ineluctable failure of scientific objectivism. This is not clear to me. Would "scientific subjectivism" do better than "scientific objectivism"? I think that what you say about comparative psychologists is that they have frequently ignored that the organisms they were investigating had experiences outside the lab, and in every case a long evolutionary history that made them what they are. Psychologists were not being "scientific" because they were ignoring important facts. If you want, this means that they were not _enough_ objective, that is they preferred their simplified idea of how organisms work to a more complex reality (I assume that reality is objective, here). On the other hand, I think we have learned a lot from comparative psychology, as from ethology. I have seen bad and good studies from both fields. Cheers, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 15-OCT-1998 13:24:13.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Inferring a mental state > > Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > > > > If an organism is perceiving a reliable indicator from another > > > indicator, then would that really be inference? > > > > > > DebMcW > > > > (If I understood your question correctly): A mental state can never be > > anything but inferred (Defn: to reach an opionion from facts or > > reasoning, The Oxford Paperback Dictionary, 3rd ed. 1988) since the mind > > is intangible. > > Ah, got me on the definition! I would argue that we can get tangible > evidence of physical perception and then it would not be inferential. > If the organism is perceiving based on a reliable indicator, then > that indicator (because it is reliable) is also not inferential. > Dear DebMcW, In your first post, I assumed (or inferred...) that you meant "the human observer" when you said "organism", that you meant "the agression" when you spoke of "a reliable indicator" and that you were referring to the "mental state, i.e. frustration" when you spoke of "another indicator". I am saying that as far as I am aware, we cannot prove an animal's mental state (we may be able to prove a human's) for we can only infer it, if we dare to... I am not sure why "you would argue..." since I don't disagree with anything you are saying in your second paragraph, nor does it contradict what I am saying about inferring a mental state, that is, if I understand correctly... If you disagree with me, could specify the following terms in your latest post using a specific example? Tangible evidence. The "it" in your second sentence. Organism. Indicator. Cheers, Chantal. :-) From: IN%"chrime@hotmail.com" "Christoph Menke" 16-OCT-1998 01:29:10.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: pedometer Hello We need something for measuring the activity of dairy cows in a loose housing system. Is there anybody who has experiences in the use of pedometers or something else? Thanks for a reply. Christoph Menke ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" 16-OCT-1998 01:53:36.35 To: IN%"chrime@hotmail.com" "'Christoph Menke'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" Subj: SV: pedometer Dear Christoph I have used pedometers (Heat-Seekers) from Boumatic to measure activity in loose housed cattle. They store activity in 2-hour bins, and can hold data for 10 days at a time. The drawbacks are that they are relatively expensive (approx. 100 pounds per pedometer excl. the software) and it is somewhat cumbersome to get hold of the raw-data, as they were not designed to be used in this way. Their product engineer is called Ronal Pulvermacher, and can be found at The Dairy Equipment Division of DEC International, INC., Madison, Wisconsin. The number (from Europe) is 001 608 222 3484, but I don't know if that is a fax or phone number. Hope this helps. Birte ______________________________________ Birte L Nielsen Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Research Center Foulum PO Box 50 DK-8830 Tjele Danmark Phone: (+45) 8999 1373 Fax: (+45) 8999 1500 Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk > -----Oprindelig meddelelse----- > Fra: Christoph Menke [SMTP:chrime@hotmail.com] > Sendt: 16. oktober 1998 09:29 > Til: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Emne: pedometer > > Hello > We need something for measuring the activity of dairy cows in a loose > housing system. > Is there anybody who has experiences in the use of pedometers or > something else? > Thanks for a reply. Christoph Menke > > > ______________________________________________________ > Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 16-OCT-1998 05:30:42.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: question Does anyone know how I can contact Dagmar Werner? DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 16-OCT-1998 11:08:58.22 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Hi Deborah, > > I think that what you say about comparative psychologists is that > > they have frequently ignored that the organisms they were > > investigating had > > experiences outside the lab, and in every case a long evolutionary history > > that made them what they are. Psychologists were not being "scientific" > > because they were ignoring important facts. > > Yes - reductionism. I think here we have to agree on "reductionism", but we are possibly saying the same thing. By "reductionism" I mean the attitude to explain a complex phenomenon by taking it into pieces, understanding the pieces and their interactions, and putting everyithing back together. The opposite attitude, sometimes called "olism" (greek: "olos", whole), claims that there are properties of the whole that cannot be understood by studying the parts. You seem to mean instead "considering a small number of causes". While this is a possibility for the word "reductionism", I think this is not the "standard" meaning. Cheers, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"MouseNY22@aol.com" 19-OCT-1998 06:18:00.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Mobbing behavior Hi everyone -- Thanks so much for your ideas about my project -- I was wondering if anyone can tell me more about the mobbing behavior exhibited by blue jays? Non- releasables are not available to me -- I'll be working with them in the field. I am going to look for Heinrich's book later this week... thanks for the tip!! Andrea From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 19-OCT-1998 08:08:43.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Hello Stefano! > Date sent: Fri, 16 Oct 1998 19:08:43 +0200 (CEST) > From: Stefano Ghirlanda > To: Deborah McWilliams > Copies to: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: motivation/frustration/anthropo... > > By "reductionism" I mean the attitude to explain a complex phenomenon by > taking it into pieces, understanding the pieces and their interactions, > and putting everyithing back together. I understand reductionism as a simplification of a complex phenomena. For example, using the S-R example, we take the behaviour of an organism and reduce it to stimulus-response (S-R). DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 19-OCT-1998 08:59:28.83 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: re: motivation/frustration/anthropo... >>> Deborah McWilliams 10/19 10:09 am >>>I understand reductionism as a simplification of a complex phenomena. For example, using the S-R example, we take the behaviour of an organism and reduce it to stimulus-response (S-R).>>> Usually, reductionism means the assumption that the properties of the whole can be explained by the properties of its parts and the interactions between them. That is, we explain the behaviour of an animal by the functioning of its nervous system and the interaction with other parts of its body. Peter Medawar has a good discussion of the success of reductionism in "Aristotle to Zoos". Jeff Rushen From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 19-OCT-1998 09:22:28.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Thanksgiving Turkeys I hope you'll all forgive me for the following. It isn't exactly science, but I suppose it has something to do with public perceptions about animals and animal welfare. Last week (oct 19th) was Canadian Thanksgiving. Our Campus newspaper "The Sheaf" asked some students "Do you feel sorry for Thanksgiving turkeys?". Answers included: "Sort of, I guess. They probably hurt when they die." "Turkeys are too stupid to fly, so we should eat them." "We shouldn't feel sorry for them. They're the dumbest animals; they sometimes drown when it rains" "Turkeys are fat and lazy and have no ambition in life. For high school fundraising I had to pick turkeys. I've held a grudge against them ever since." "I've never really thought about it. I don't consider myself a vegetarian, so no, I don't feel sorry for them." No. I don't think they feel anything - pretty much quick and painless [when they're butchered]. But don't let them watch the movie Babe...." Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 19-OCT-1998 09:38:21.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: re: motivation/frustration/anthropo... Hi Jeff!! > Date sent: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 10:45:33 -0400 > From: Jeff Rushen > To: DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA, applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: re: motivation/frustration/anthropo... > >>> Deborah McWilliams 10/19 10:09 am >>>I understand reductionism as a simplification of a complex phenomena. For example, using the S-R example, we take the behaviou > of an organism and reduce it to stimulus-response (S-R).>>> > > Usually, reductionism means the assumption that the properties of > the whole can be explained by the properties of its parts and > the interactions between them. > That is, we explain the behaviour > of an animal by the functioning of its nervous system and the > interaction with other parts of its body. Peter Medawar has a good > discussion of the success of reductionism in "Aristotle to Zoos". Psychology has been accused of reductionism in the sense of "simplism" as I demonstrated in the S-R example. We have had many discussions before in this listserv re: meanings of words among disciplines and perhaps this is a good example. Your definition (and as the previous person posted) actually is quite positive. For example, I could not think of a better way to study an animal than by understanding all the properties of all the parts (neurology, biochemistry, etc). and the interactions of those parts. I think it has only been in recent history that is is acceptable to merge the study of organisms by your definition of reductionism. Previously, you were either a biochemist or an ethologist and the two disciplines never met. Psychology actually was fragmented more than most disciplines as behaviourists, Freudians, Gestaltists etc. worked in parallel despite studying similar things. Even within each compartmentalized discipline of psychology, they worked in parallel. Psychology, as a disciline, lost a lot of credibility (which it has begun to recoup) because of this. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 19-OCT-1998 09:42:26.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Inferring a mental state > > I am saying that as far as I am aware, we cannot prove an animal's > > mental state (we may be able to prove a human's) for we can only infer > > it, if we dare to... > > I am not sure why "you would argue..." since I don't disagree with > > anything you are saying in your second paragraph, nor does it contradict > > what I am saying about inferring a mental state, that is, if I > > understand correctly... > > Yes, inference is different depending if you are talking about > the observer or the organism being observed. Yes, I would agree that > we cannot prove an animal's mental state. I disagree with you re: > humans as we cannot prove a human's mental state either. "Stimulation of specific regions within the limbic system of humans during brain surgery produces various vague subjective sensations described by the patient as joy, satisfaction, or pleasure in one area and discouragement, fear or anxiety in another..." I think we may be able to prove a human's mental state, if not now, some time soon. > Reality check: the scenario was re: a predator and the mental > state of the prey. For example, can we infer (as observers) that the > prey is thinking "Predator! Run (or hide, etc)". The scenario also > included reliable indicators. My point: I did not think inference > was necessary on the part of the observer if RELIABLY a potential prey > organism performed the same behaviour when the predator appeared. > The behaviour is observable therefore not inferential. Actually the scenario was re: whether a ram was feeling frustration after having repeatedly attempted intromission with a ewe. If you are interested, the applied ethology archives are linked to its home page which can be found at the following address: http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/. Yes, as observers, we can INFER that the prey is thinking "Predator! I had better run." Though I am not claiming that we can prove that this is what the animal is thinking. I never meant to imply that we had to "infer a BEHAVIOUR", when discussing the idea if inference, each and every time I spoke of inference, it was with respect to the animal's MENTAL STATE. In the ram scenerio that we were discussing, I think that inferring that the ram was frustrated would lead a scientist to ask different questions and do different follow-up experiments than a scientist who was not interested in testing these types of hypotheses. Whether it is necessary or not? I think it is necessary, overall, to take an interest in animals' mental states, for example, I think it is very important in the study of animal welfare...However, I do not think that each individual scientist has to concern him/herself with an animal's mental state. There are many things to study and there are different levels to study at (ie. from gene to ecosystem, from S-R behaviour to cognition...) and each area is important and each area contributes parts to the whole. What does this expression mean: "Reality check:" > Is this any better? I am still not clear on what you mean by reliable indicators. Cheers, Chantal. From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 19-OCT-1998 09:46:31.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Thanksgiving Sharp-eyed (or bored) a-e readers may have noticed my small error. The Canadian Thanksgiving holiday was oct 12th. TODAY is oct 19th (here in Saskatchewan anyway :) Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 19-OCT-1998 12:52:12.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Inferring a mental state Hello again Chantal! > Date sent: Mon, 19 Oct 1998 11:44:24 -0400 > From: Chantal Gaboury > Subject: Re: Inferring a mental state > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Send reply to: cgaboury@total.net > > "Stimulation of specific regions within the limbic system of humans > during brain surgery produces various vague subjective sensations > described by the patient as joy, satisfaction, or pleasure in one area > and discouragement, fear or anxiety in another..." > I think we may be able to prove a human's mental state, if not now, some > time soon. "vague, subjective sensations". Would this not differ from person to person and would not this be difficult to prove because of the vagueness, subjectiveness and variance? > Actually the scenario was re: whether a ram was feeling frustration > after having repeatedly attempted intromission with a ewe. If you are > interested, the applied ethology archives are linked to its home page > which can be found at the following address: > http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/herdmed/applied-ethology/. Actually, I determinedly stayed out of that discussion as I do not know anything about sheep. I jumped in when terminology strayed into certainties on mental conditions of other organisms than themselves. > What does this expression mean: "Reality check:" Just a fun way of checking to make sure we are both discussing the same thing. > > Is this any better? I think now we both understand that we do not agree with each other re: certainty in determining mental states. That's good. > I am still not clear on what you mean by reliable indicators. A reliable indicator would mean that whenever an organism was faced with the same situation or thing, they performed the same behaviour. Ciao for now! Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"V.W.Koch@usda.gov" "V W Koch" 19-OCT-1998 14:52:01.71 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cows / horses and dogs Kathy Hughes wrote: I once lived in an area rife with stray dogs and wild dog packs. I kept a Morgan gelding pastured with Nubian dairy goats. Any dog(s) that entered the pasture were immediately attacked by the horse, whose chosen method of attack was to strike with his front hooves. He killed several dogs. No investigative behavior, just all out territorial aggression. Entering the pasture with a dog was a good way to get hurt by just that single horse, so can't imagine a herd. The horse was fine with dogs if under saddle or halter led/tied (in which case he would kick only if severely harrassed, but he would not initiate the contest or rear and strike with front hooves). Hans Haussmann wrote: I think it is not clear whether horses in a herd would also attack. The attacks of a single horse are not strictly "mobbing" because mobbing is a herd behaviour. Observations on a single animal are not too informative about the ethogram of the species. The individual may have a rather special history, experience or even trainig. Just some additional anecdotal info: I once kept a stallion, two mares, and (usually) a foal on about three acres in an area where a feral dog pack preyed on susceptible domestic species. One of the mares (old and barren) was very subordinate in temperament and never initiated an attack on dogs; however, she would participate in the charge when the herd went after them as a group. My subjective feeling is that she was not attacking; she was just staying with the herd. The stallion, the (very) dominant mare, and the foals (5 of them over 5 years) were all likely to attack any dogs entering the pasture. Sometimes only one of them would attack; sometimes all of them would. (The dogs would run from a foal even if it was the only attacker, even though one of the dogs was almost as large as the foals, early on. I suppose there's something to be said for even misplaced self-confidence, under the circumstances.) However, I do not believe the horses would have attacked a dog accompanied by a person, even a stranger. The dominant mare charged me once in the pasture shortly after I bought her. I defended myself with a handy piece of wood, and she never did it again. While I can't say definitively that SHE wouldn't attack a stranger (with or without a dog), I would bet my life that the others would not. Since three acres would seem to be sufficient room to run away if that had been their inclination, I don't think the attacks were due to the animals feeling cornered. However, they may have been due to the dominant temperaments of the stallion and the mare (with the foal learning the behavior by example), rather than true "mobbing" behavior. Whatever the biological initiator of the behavior was, the behavior itself was successful in species preservation. I was one of the few people in the area who never had an animal killed or injured by the pack. Wendy Koch v.w.koch@usda.gov From: IN%"jmacph@sprint.ca" "Jonathan MacPherson" 19-OCT-1998 15:31:20.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (no subject) I am a biology student looking into a study of house sparrows and thier feeding behavior in relation to threat from predators. Does anyone have any suggested resources? Thanks Jonathan MacPherson jmacph@sprint.ca From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 19-OCT-1998 20:20:00.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Taste aversion for a familiar drink Dear List Members, I remember when I was young, I would go into the fridge, grab our big, brown, plastic juice container and take a big sip right out of it (when my mother wasn't looking!) Sometimes, I would be expecting orange juice and into my mouth would flow grape juice. (Someone had finished the orange juice on the previous day and replaced it with a fresh batch of grape juice.) Although I liked grape juice, when this would happen, I would run to the sink and spit it out. For some reason, I did not immediately recognize the familiar flavour and found it aversive. What I would like to know is whether anyone knows of any studies that have been done, or any theories that have been put forth to explain such a phenomenon (in humans and/or animals). I would also like to know if anyone on the list has any ideas about this. It makes sense to me from an ultimate point of view that if an animal does not recognize a taste, it's probably best to spit it out...what I don't understand is why it seems to take a few moments to recognize a familiar taste without the help of colour or smell. I seem to have a vague recollection of a study where drinks were coloured with food dye and subjects initially found the taste aversive because they were expecting a different flavour, one more consistent with the colour of the liquid...has anyone heard of this study? If so, may I have the reference? Thank-you in advance for your help, Chantal Gaboury From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 20-OCT-1998 03:28:55.59 To: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" "Chantal Gaboury" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Taste aversion for a familiar drink Hi Chantal, > I remember when I was young, I would go into the fridge, grab our big, > brown, plastic juice container and take a big sip right out of it (when > my mother wasn't looking!) Sometimes, I would be expecting orange juice > and into my mouth would flow grape juice. (Someone had finished the > orange juice on the previous day and replaced it with a fresh batch of > grape juice.) Although I liked grape juice, when this would happen, I > would run to the sink and spit it out. For some reason, I did not > immediately recognize the familiar flavour and found it aversive. I can contribute one personal experience. Once I ate tomatoes thinking they were strawberries (both were on the table an I guess I directed myself towards something red). Pretty disgusting. Note that I had access to all inforamtion (contrary to your brown-brick experience), both foods were visible in bowls on the table (it is clear that I was not paying that much attention, though). > What I would like to know is whether anyone knows of any studies that > have been done, or any theories that have been put forth to explain such > a phenomenon (in humans and/or animals). I do not know of any such researches, altohugh I would be interested. > I would also like to know if anyone on the list has any ideas about > this. I have some gut feelings but very imprecise. I'll let you know if I come up with something. Cheers, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 20-OCT-1998 03:33:15.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: sparrows Jonathan > I am a biology student looking into a study of house sparrows and thier > feeding behavior in relation to threat from predators. Does anyone have > any suggested resources? There's a nice account of this on pages 54-7 of Marion Dawkins' book 'Through Our Eyes Only?' (1993, Freeman, Oxford), based on studies by Mark Elgar, including: Elgar MA 1986 The establishment of foraging flocks in house sparrows: risk of predation and daily temperature. Behavioural Ecology and Sociobiology 19, 433-8. Elgar MA 1986 House sparrows establish foraging flocks by giving chirrup calls if the resources are divisible. Animal Behaviour 34, 169-74. Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk" "marie.haskell" 20-OCT-1998 03:40:54.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Taste and expectancy Dear Chantal and other list members, This is a case in point of where experimental psychology has useful contributions, at least in setting up the theory to judge these instances by. The story would go that you had an 'expectation' of what you were going to drink in terms of smell, taste etc. This expectancy was strong enough presumably that what you tasted was in contrast to what you expected, and the fairly powerful aversion system that prevents us from ingesting rotten fruit etc sprang into action. The lack of recognition was probably exacerbated by you doing this in a hurry and not even looking or otherwise investigating the contents of the jug before drinking! The expectancy in this case seemed to be rather specific in that you didn't just expect something wet or something sweetish (both drinks would have satisified this criteria) but were expecting something orange-like. Variations in other attributes of the drink may have varied (eg amount of sugar used to make the drink and therefore sweetness). Did this make you react? Having just read Stefano's story, the same thing might have happened. Expect sweet strawberryish taste, when not taking much notice, eat tomatoes and although tomatoes are not so bad really, the contrast between expectancy and reality made you reject them. Incidently, did this put you off tomatoes in the longer term? Cheers, Marie Haskell Roslin Institute (Edinburgh) From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 20-OCT-1998 03:55:51.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Taste aversion for a familiar drink Chantal et al > Subject: Taste aversion for a familiar drink Can't resist telling you of two episodes I've seen myself which remind us we are right to be cautious about unexpected tastes. One was a boy who grabbed a bottle of vinegar and drank about half of it before he discovered it wasn't Coke. This was in camp, and I guess it was in the days before we were all much more careful about labelling things. The contraction of his facial muscles was quite striking. The other was at a party. Someone reached behind himself and grabbed a handful of what he thought was peanuts, and stuffed them in his mouth. Unfortunately he missed the peanut bowl and got the ash tray instead. Mike From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 20-OCT-1998 03:56:53.02 To: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" "Chantal Gaboury" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Inferring a mental state Hi, thoughts about mental states. 0) If a stimulus-response account (that is: only the present stimulus determines behaviour) fails, there must be some "information" that the animal uses apart from the current stimulation. This information is most probably stored somewhere in the brain as far as we know. Thus, animals can be proved to have "brain states" at least, in all cases where we find out that animals respond to the same stimulus in different ways according to some other factor (e.g. we can train an animal to respond to a B-A sequence of stimuli but not to A alone: responding to the current stimulus is not enough -> information about previous experience must be somewhere in the animal). 1) The above point is almost trivial (it is numbered 0), but forces us to make a distinction between "brain state" and "mental state". It is not clear to me what the distinction may be. Does the prey think "predator! better run!"? This depends entirely of what we mean by "think". If I state the question as "does the predator presence elicit a response based on previous experience with predators (stored in the brain)?", then the answer is pretty obvious. The prey has a brain state that incorporates information about the predator being present, the previous experiences of a predator being dangerous, and hopefully some approriate response. 2) What does the prey "think", then? As far as I can see now the question boils down to "has the prey conscious experience"? This may be a distinction between "brain state" and "mental state", altohugh I cannot give a precise definition of "consciousness". 3) It is useful to make hypotheses about brain states insofar they are hypotheses about the information that the animal is using. It is not (yet) useful to convert "brain state" to "mental state" if this does not provide us with more tools to analyse behaviour. If we can provide a distinction between "brain state" and "mental state", then based on their differences we could (maybe) devise some situation in which the difference would appear to the behaviour level. It is a pretty complex issue in neuroscience/philosophy of the mind that is probably not very clearly useful right now for ethologists (but hypotheses on _brain_ states _are_ useful!). See for example: http://ling.ucsc.edu/~chalmers/ Cheers, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 20-OCT-1998 04:00:29.62 To: IN%"marie.haskell@bbsrc.ac.uk" "marie.haskell" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Taste and expectancy Hi, > Having just read Stefano's story, the same thing might have happened. Expect > sweet strawberryish taste, when not taking much notice, eat tomatoes and > although tomatoes are not so bad really, the contrast between expectancy and > reality made you reject them. Incidently, did this put you off tomatoes in the > longer term? No, I still like tomatoes. I had similar thoughts about "expectations", but was trying to formulate then in a more mechanistic way (e.g. in terms of brain systems). Some theories assume that the brain builds a "toy world" to base expectations on, for example. It is not clear as yet the status of this hypotheses, and I am looking for something simpler. Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"bjorn.forkman@zoologi.su.se" "forkman" 20-OCT-1998 05:59:09.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Inferring a mental state, part 2 Hello all, in much of modern experimental psychology knowledge is thought to be = stored in two different ways, as a declarative representation and as a = procedural representation. Procedural representations can be seen as a = string of event representations where one event activates the next (each = event can be either a behaviour or an external event). Declarative = representations are much more flexible and can be manipulated more = freely.=20 In a classical experiment Holland & Straub 1979 trained a rat to = approach a magazine when a tone signaled the delivery of food to the = magazine. They then removed the rats from the experimental chamber and = paired the food with nausea (using LiCl injections). In the subsequent = test they predicted that if the rats used procedural representations = they would have a string of events like "tone signal = =3D>approach=3D>food=3Deat", but note that since each event is evoked by = the preceeding one the animal is unable to say what the result of the = chain is going to be. If on the other hand the animal is using = declarative representations it would be able to "think" (my own = interpretation) that tone signals the delivery of the food, which has = been paired with nausea and which is therefore undesirable. The crucial = test is therefore whether the rat approaches the food magazine or not. = And the answer is that it doesn't. (Nor do hens by the way.) (For much = more information on this kind of thing look up Dickinson & Balleine = 1994, Anim Learn Behav 22(1): 1-18) Couldn't the difference between the "brain state" and the "mental state" = be better thought of as the difference between the procedural and = declarative representation? all the best, Bj=F6rn From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 21-OCT-1998 10:45:23.19 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Hobart University. Can someone please help with an e-mail contact address for Hobart University, Tasmania. Glynne Anderson k9acad@iafrica.com From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 21-OCT-1998 13:18:50.36 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"listproc@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" CC: Subj: Biopolitics This is a MIME-encapsulated message --Boundary_(ID_ka3I1KHktEmaBaqlmgof/g) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-disposition: inline Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable -------------Forwarded Message----------------- From: INTERNET:HowlBloom@aol.com, INTERNET:HowlBloom@aol.com To: [unknown], jbrody = Date: 10/21/98 4:28 AM RE: jim--for the wep page Jim--I hope your computer can read the url in the enclosed call for paper= s. It's in worperfect6.0 format. The site, on biopolitics, is listing www.paleopsych.org in exchange for our listing of them, per the following= : ----- In a message dated 98-10-20 12:57:14 EDT, you write: << Subj: re: biopolitics Date: 98-10-20 12:57:14 EDT From: sap12@psu.edu (Steven Peterson) To: HowlBloom@aol.com = File: IPSACALL.WPD (6396 bytes) DL Time (TCP/IP): < 1 minute = Howard-- = I am sending by attachment (WordPerfect 6) the letter version of the ca= ll for papers. Feel free to edit it any way you want. hb: whoops. my computer won't comprehend wordperfect6.0. just tried and= no luck. could you send it in ascii (text--just plain text, not text[dos])?= Also, I will create a hyperlink from the Research Committee # 12 web si= te to your site for the International Paleopsychology Project site. Nedles= s to say, I would be delighted if you provided a reciprocal link back to t= he Research Committee # 12 home page (the URL is in the attached letter). hb: wonderful. I'll pass this along to Jim Brody, our webmaster. Guess = I'll send him the file attachment with the url in the hope his machine has bet= ter luck with it than mine. cheers--howard ---------- Howard Bloom (founder: International Paleopsychology Project; member: New York Academy= of Sciences, American Association for the Advancement of Science, American Psychological Society, Academy of Political Science, Human Behavior and Evolution Socie= ty, European Sociobiological Society; board member: Epic of Evolution Society) International Paleopsychology Project 705 President Street Brooklyn, NY 11215 phone 718 622 2278 fax 718 398 2551 e-mail howard@paleopsych.org for two chapters from = The Lucifer Principle: A Scientific Expedition Into the Forces of History= , see www.bookworld.com/lucifer --Boundary_(ID_ka3I1KHktEmaBaqlmgof/g) Content-type: application/octet-stream; name="IPSACALL.WPD" Content-disposition: attachment; filename="IPSACALL.WPD" Content-transfer-encoding: base64 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AODgEQwAAAAAYAkMAODgEQwAAAAAuAsMAODgEQwAAAAAEA4MAODgEQwAAAAAaBAMAODgEQwAAAAA wBIMAODgEQwAAAAAGBUMAOCAgE9mgFBvbGl0aWNzgGFuZIBQdWJsaWOAQWZmYWlyc8zM4DAMAAAA AAgHDADg4DAUAAAAAGAJCAcoIwgHKCMUAODgMBQAAAAAuAtgCSgjYAkoIxQA4OAwFAAAAAAQDrgL KCO4CygjFADg4DAUAAAAAGgQEA4oIxAOKCMUAODgMBQAAAAAwBJoECgjaBAoIxQA4OAwFAAAAAAY FcASKCPAEigjFADgQWxiZXJ0gFNvbWl0LIBEaXN0aW5ndWlzaGVkgFNlcnZpY2WAgICAgICAgICA gICAgIDQBBcAAA0ACwACGBUoIxgVKCMCIBcA0ICAgOAwDAAAAAAIBwwA4OAwFAAAAABgCQgHKCMI BygjFADg4DAUAAAAALgLYAkoI2AJKCMUAODgMBQAAAAAEA64CygjuAsoIxQA4OAwFAAAAABoEBAO KCMQDigjFADg4DAUAAAAAMASaBAoI2gQKCMUAODgMBQAAAAAGBXAEigjwBIoIxQA4ICAUHJvZmVz c29ygEVtZXJpdHVz --Boundary_(ID_ka3I1KHktEmaBaqlmgof/g)-- From: IN%"Emily.Patterson-Kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 21-OCT-1998 15:24:00.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: re: motivation/frustration/anthropo... > Psychology has been accused of reductionism in the sense of >"simplism" as I demonstrated in the S-R example. Yes but I argue that in the great majority of it should be found innocent even non S-R behaviourists > Your definition (and as the previous person posted) >actually is quite positive. For example, I could not think of a >better way to study an animal than by understanding all the >properties of all the parts (neurology, biochemistry, etc). and the >interactions of those parts. That's exactly what reductionalist do think... If they didn't think something sensible, positive and exciting they (presumably) would not do it that way. But 'parts' doesn't necessarily mean physical systems. It can refer to the role of stimuli, reinforcers and rules etc > I think it has only been in recent history that is is >acceptable to merge the study of organisms by your definition of >reductionism. Previously, you were either a biochemist or an >ethologist and the two disciplines never met. The defintion in question is the one I use as a psychologist, I am not sure why it seems so biological? > Psychology actually was fragmented more than most disciplines as >behaviourists, Freudians, Gestaltists etc. worked in parallel despite >studying similar things. Even within each compartmentalized >discipline of psychology, they worked in parallel. Psychology, as a >disciline, lost a lot of credibility (which it has begun to recoup) >because of this. I believe the fragmentation (diversity) of psychology is its greatest strength. Single philosophy systems only work when you are sure you have a monoploy on the truth. Having faction gives you differents perspectives on topics, possibly allowing you to 'triangulate' in on the best explanation for any given audience. Emily From: IN%"Emily.Patterson-Kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 21-OCT-1998 15:41:23.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Taste and expectancy >the contrast between expectancy and >reality made you reject them. Incidently, did this put you off tomatoes in the >longer term? > > >Cheers, > >Marie Haskell >Roslin Institute (Edinburgh) The (vital) role of expectancy in reinforcement is dealt with in things like the 'Rescorla-Wagner Theory' which measures the direction and size of differences between the expected and actual event. From: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch" "Helen Hirt" 22-OCT-1998 03:37:09.29 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Social organization in layinghens Part of my investigations on layinghens is the question of welfare in large herds: - Is there a difference concerning welfare in herds with 50, 500 and more than 1000 animals? All animals do have a structured stable (nests, perches, litter), a structured covered outdoor part and access to free range. One idea is to measure welfare on social organization and stable relationship. From literature I got the impression that with increasing groupe size the social organization is changing. - Originaly there are family bonds of 4-12 hens and a dominant cock, they have different ages and experiences and humans find individual relationships. - In small groups of domestic hens (50-100) humans find hierarchies and individual knowledge. - In larger groups (300-2000 hens) humans find territoral behaviour witch they consider as homeranges. Is it a problem of capability that we can't recognize individual relationships in herd with 2000 hens or is there a continuing adaptation of social organization? Can layinghens form something like a swarm? How can we measure the socal organization of a swarm? What can we measure to compare the social organisation in the different groupe sizes (beside aggressiv interacions and injuries)? What other social organization beside a swarm could we think of? And can a swarm as a socail organization fulfill the welfare of laying hens? Do you know more questions about this subject or do you have hints for possible answers? --------------------------------------- Helen Hirt Research Institute of Organic Agriculture FiBL Ackerstrasse Postfach CH-5070-Frick Tel. ++41 62 865 72 56 Fax: ++41 62 865 72 73 Email: helen.hirt@fibl.ch * visit our homepage at: http://www.fibl.ch From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 22-OCT-1998 09:09:12.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Social organization in layinghens Hello Helen! > Date sent: Thu, 22 Oct 1998 10:37:15 +0100 > From: Helen Hirt > Subject: Social organization in layinghens > To: "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" > Organization: FiBL, Forschungsinstitut =?UNKNOWN?Q?f=FCr?= biologischen > Landbau, Frick CH > Is it a problem of capability that we can't recognize individual > relationships in herd with 2000 hens or is there a continuing adaptation > of social organization? What I would do: I would spend hours (many hours) sitting with (or by remote) this large group of birds and observe. I would suspect you could leave with several (or more) hypotheses you can develop testing methods. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch" "Helen Hirt" 23-OCT-1998 02:57:34.70 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Social organization in laying hens ROB G wrote: > Hi Helen, > > The following reference might give you some ideas about social > strategies in flocks of laying hens: > > Pagel, M. & Dawkins, M.S., (1997), Peck orders and group size in > laying hens:'futures contracts' for non-aggression, Behavioural Processes > 40, pp.13-25. Hi Robin Thank you very much for answering. This reference, I did not know up to now, seems to be very interesting. > Basically the paper presents a model that suggests individual > recognition in hens might break down under large group sizes. This is > because the costs involved in aggressive interactions outweigh the > benefits gained by interacting, if the chance of meeting the same > individuals are low, which is likely in a large group (if you assume > random movement of individuals within the flock). In a groupe of 1750 hens individuals did not move randomly but used 55-65% of the space. That reduces the possibillity to meet unknown individuals. But in increasing group size territorial behaviour can brake down. > In such cases, hens might be expected to switch to a badge of > status system, whereby animals avoid/ approach others, not because they > recognise them, but because of previous encounters with individuals with > similar badges to the unknown individual. Some more questions:-Is it a switch or is it a reduction of many badges they use anyhow? -What badges and how many are used for individual recognition? -Is it a question of which badges for recognition, or maybe only orientation in a swarm, can hens keep longest with increasing group size? -Is it a continuum of adaptation? -And when would we judge that capacity to adapt is overtaxed? > You might be able to see if a badge of status system were > operating in commercial sized groups of hens, by measuring traits such as > comb size, comb colour, etc. If a badge system were operating, you might > find your measured trait to be discontinuous, eg. combs fitted nicely into > 2 categories (you'd get a bi-modal distribution of the trait of interest). > If your measured trait was continuous, it wouldn't neccessarily mean that > the trait wasn't important for badge recognition, but you'd have to wonder > how the animals then made the distinction between 'big & small' for > example. > > Anyway, I hope that the reference and rough idea help you in your > studies. I know how difficult it is watching hens all day long. This is what > I am currently doing! Insanity here we come!! > > Yours. > ROB GREGORY --------------------------------------- Helen Hirt Research Institute of Organic Agriculture FiBL Ackerstrasse Postfach CH-5070-Frick Tel. ++41 62 865 72 56 Fax: ++41 62 865 72 73 Email: helen.hirt@fibl.ch * visit our homepage at: http://www.fibl.ch From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 23-OCT-1998 05:00:36.89 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Mobile Slaughtering Is anybody involved in or informed about mobile slaughtering? In Germany we have just founded a new organisation to support the building and use of a vehicle for mobile slaughtering. I would be interested in the latest developments in other countries. Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch" "Helen Hirt" 23-OCT-1998 05:50:31.05 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Social organization in laying hens ROB G wrote: > Hi Helen, > > I was wondering if you could give me the reference to the 'hens > don't move randomly in flocks of 1750' statement that you made in your > reply. I was unaware of this fact. -PHD-thesis from Ulrike Boelter: Felduntersuchungen zum Sozialverhalten von Huehnern in der Auslauf- und Volierenhaltung, Justus-Liebig-Universitaet, Giessen 1987 (only in German).-Similar investigations: Christiane Keppler, Ulrike Boelter-Schnurrenberg & Detlef W. Foelsch (1997): Activity and social relationships of chickens (Gallus gallus f. domesticut) in aviary systems - methods and preliminary results. in: Paul Koene and Harry Blokhuis. Proceedings of the 5th European Symposium on Poultry Welfare 1997. > As far as I know, no-one is sure which traits are used as badges, > if indeed they are. It is likely that the comb and wattles play a large > role in conspecific recognition, as removal of them leads to an increase > in aggressive social interactions between individuals, and hens with large > combs have been shown to be avoided by other hens. Similarly, artifically > increasing the size of the comb results in a increase in success in > encounters for previously subordinate hens. Other workers have postulated > that eye colour and feather colour could act as badges. Certainly, light > coloured hens in flocks of ISA Browns tend to be subordinate to darker > hens. > > I'm not sure that badges would be used as an orientation device or > that we can consider a large flock of hens as a swarm. I'd imagine that if > the housing were removed, large groups of hens would split into more > 'natural' flock sizes. If the group were behaving as a swarm, you might > expect the group to remain as a cohesive whole, when placed in a > free-choice environment. I also would expect that the 'adaptation' is reversal. -What would make it reversal? Space? Density? Structural orientation (same place makes familier)? What else? -Or the other way round: what do hens need for building up and keeping 'more natural group size' like 'subgroups'? -Whould we judge 'subgrouping' as a successful adaptation and a 'running with the mass' maladaptive? -What problem has a laying hen with 'running with the mass' besides maybe some changes in frequence and sequence of social interactions? (we judge changes in frequence and sequence of dustbathing as maladaptive!) > As far as measuring when the flock size became maladaptive, i'm at > a bit of a loss, with regard to the practicalities. A possible approach > would be to use a combination of behavioural, physiological and production > measures of welfare and compare these in differing group sizes. That's exactly what I'm trying to do! Production measures is easy, pysiological parameters quite difficult and in the end I can not judge without clear behavioural parameters. > Anyway, I hope that this helps. I look forward to your reply. > > Cheers! > > ROB GREGORY > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- > Robin Gregory > > Animal Behaviour Research Group, > Department of Zoology, > South Parks Road, > Oxford, > OX1 3PS, > > Tel:(01865) (2)71214 > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --------------------------------------- Helen Hirt Research Institute of Organic Agriculture FiBL Ackerstrasse Postfach CH-5070-Frick Tel. ++41 62 865 72 56 Fax: ++41 62 865 72 73 Email: helen.hirt@fibl.ch * visit our homepage at: http://www.fibl.ch From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 23-OCT-1998 06:17:11.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: social organisation/badges Dear All, A note on some recent observations relating to badges/individual recognition in poultry. We are doing some work here involving using ultra-violet light as environmental enrichment for turkeys. One of the treatments is giving the birds supplementary UV (normal incandescent and fluorescent lights emit minimal UV) between 1-5 weeks of age and 15-20 weeks, with only fluorescent light between 5-15 weeks. Yesterday, the turkeys were 15 weeks of age, so we turned the UV lamps on. Although the turkeys looked only slightly different to human observers, the turkeys immediately began vocalising their aggression call, became aggressive and started fighting so vigorously we were forced to turn the UV lights off. It appeared as if the turkeys were suddenly unable to recognise each other and so had to re-establish their hierarchy. The turkeys immediately settled down again once the UV lamps were turned off. In another treatment, the birds have had UV throughout their photoperiod for the entire 15 weeks, so it is unlikely it is the UV per se which is causing the aggression. There is evidence that galliformes (and many other spp. of animals) are sensitive to UV which might be important when considering badges, markings or the way in which social organisation is maintained. ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"joseph.garner@new.oxford.ac.uk" "Joseph Garner" 23-OCT-1998 06:57:05.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Binge eating in young pigs Hi everyone, I have in the back of my mind an article about binge eating in pigs, where young animals (females especially) would eat large amounts irregularly, often vomiting, and usually putting on weight far slower than "normal" eaters. There was at least the hypothesis that the behaviour might represent a response to (social) stress during development. I've tried the usuall bibliographic searches, but I've drawn a blank. Can anyone help with references to this? All information would be very much appreciated. Cheers Joe --------------------------------- Joseph Garner, Animal Behaviour Research Group, Zoology Dept. Oxford University, South Parks Road, OX1 3PS Tel: (0)1865 271214 Page: 01523 169589 Fax: (0)1865 310447 From: IN%"MouseNY22@aol.com" 23-OCT-1998 07:09:42.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: blue jay mobbing behavior Hi all -- I think my questions aren't getting posted -- the first one I sent about this topic was sent back to me. IF this makes it to the board ---- can anyone tell me more about mobbing behavior exhibited by jays? I think that this is what I'd like to do my project on, but I'm really inexperienced! Any ideas or info. would be appreciated. Thanks - Andrea Binghamton University, New York From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" 23-OCT-1998 10:37:37.56 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: social organisation/badges chris, this is great! at the risk of breaking my arm from patting myself on the back... i quote: "Yet, there is a lack of correspondence between avian and human sensory landscapes (Gentle, 1972; Kare et al., 1957), indicating that perceptual differences may vary according to ecological and evolutionary factors." from Barbato et al., 1982..... granted, its a broad sweeping, graduate-student-like statement, but one (along with your anecdotal evidence) that should sound a warning regarding the design of experiments based upon our own experiences (both sensations and perceptions). to paraphrase a moderately better writer, "There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, Than are dreamt of in your philosophy" hope all is well, guy > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk [mailto:Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk] > Sent: Monday, October 23, 1939 2:03 PM > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: social organisation/badges > [snip] > There is evidence that galliformes (and many other spp. of animals) > are sensitive to UV which might be important when considering badges, > markings or the way in which social organisation is maintained. From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 23-OCT-1998 11:19:37.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Mobbing Behavior (of Jays) > can anyone tell me more about mobbing > behavior exhibited by jays? I think that this is what I'd like to do my > project on, but I'm really inexperienced! Any ideas or info. would be > appreciated. Andrea- You may have better luck with getting answers to your questions if you go straight to the experts first...the jays themselves! Spend some hours observing them, and if you are lucky, a neighborhood cat or perhaps a raptor will wander into view and you will be able to learn about their mobbing behavior firsthand. Read what you can on corvids (especially Heinrich's book) to help you begin to understand what you are observing. You will probably find that you will get more response from this list if your questions about behavior are a little more specific after doing your initial research. Enjoy the ways of the jays and best of luck in your project. Donna Reynolds From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 23-OCT-1998 13:28:09.67 To: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" "INTERNET:gfb1@psu.edu", IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: social organisation/badges Message text written by INTERNET:gfb1@psu.edu >"Yet, there is a lack of correspondence between avian and human sensory landscapes (Gentle, 1972; Kare et al., 1957), indicating that perceptual differences may vary according to ecological and evolutionary factors." from Barbato et al., 1982..... granted, its a broad sweeping, graduate-student-like statement, but one (along with your anecdotal evidence) that should sound a warning regardin= g the design of experiments based upon our own experiences (both sensations= and perceptions).< My goodness, it's nice to see this! The elusive concept of "psychologic= al adaptations" should tell us to expect these effects, that primate recepto= rs and effectors have a history that will not necessarily be the same as tha= t for other species. Might even vary between groups of humans that have been mutually isolated for very long periods. Oops! I didn't mean to sa= y that! Jim Brody From: IN%"mjturgeon@gespro.com" 23-OCT-1998 18:26:03.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: vomiting in pigs This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_AxPjpaufcxTE15QRgo8bEA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hi Robert! I don't know much about binge eating but when I was working as a = nutritionnist (a just quit my job and begin a master degree in = september), we sometimes have the kind of problem you describe. In the = field of animal nutrition, the problem is usually caused by a mycotoxin, = vomitoxin (DON), and is dose related.The mycotoxin is produced by molds = of the fusarium species which infected the grain. The more the animal = eat of the "poisonned" food, the more are the reactions. The younger = pigs are more sensible to the effects of the toxin. They can vomit (or = just eat less if the amount is not sufficient to induce the vomiting) = but its weight gain can be affected seriously. Now, if I extrapolate, I = can imagine that if a pig has been on a feed that was not good for a = period of time and if its intake and weight gain were poor, the pig will = try to compensate. Then if the pig try to eat more, because he is hungry = not having enough quality feed to eat, he may be exposed to the toxin = again! We go back to the starting point...A mycotoxin problem in the = feed is the kind of one that comes and goes between different batches of = feed.=20 I don't know if this can help you but it's bringing another dimension to = the situation you mentionned. I would be very much interested in knowing = if pigs can really be binge eaters without anything triggering that in = the feed itself. Perhaps the animals are just eating big amounts of feed = when they have access to the feeder, and this all related to competition = for food... Marie-Jos=E9e Turgeon, agr. Dept of animal science Laval University, Qu=E9bec, CANADA --Boundary_(ID_AxPjpaufcxTE15QRgo8bEA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hi Robert!
 
I don't know much about binge eating = but when I=20 was working as a nutritionnist (a just quit my job and begin a master = degree in=20 september), we sometimes have the kind of problem you describe. In the = field of=20 animal nutrition, the problem is usually caused by a mycotoxin, = vomitoxin (DON),=20 and is dose related.The mycotoxin is produced by molds of the fusarium = species=20 which infected the grain. The more the animal eat of the = "poisonned"=20 food, the more are the reactions. The younger pigs are more sensible to = the=20 effects of the toxin. They can vomit (or just eat less if the amount is = not=20 sufficient to induce the vomiting) but its weight gain can be affected=20 seriously. Now, if I extrapolate, I can imagine that if a pig has = been on=20 a feed that was not good for a period of time and if its intake and = weight gain=20 were poor, the pig will try to compensate. Then if the pig try to eat = more,=20 because he is hungry not having enough quality feed to eat, he may be = exposed to=20 the toxin again! We go back to the starting point...A mycotoxin problem = in the=20 feed is the kind of one that comes and goes between different batches of = feed.=20
I don't know if this can help you = but it's=20 bringing another dimension to the situation you mentionned. I would be = very much=20 interested in knowing if pigs can really be binge eaters without = anything=20 triggering that in the feed itself. Perhaps the animals are just eating = big=20 amounts of feed when they have access to the feeder, and this all = related to=20 competition for food...
 
Marie-Josée Turgeon, = agr.
Dept of animal science
Laval University, Québec,=20 CANADA
--Boundary_(ID_AxPjpaufcxTE15QRgo8bEA)-- From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 26-OCT-1998 10:45:01.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Mobile Slaughtering Hans et al. > Is anybody involved in or informed about mobile slaughtering? In Germany > we have just founded a new organisation to support the building and > use of a vehicle for mobile slaughtering. I would be interested in the > latest developments in other countries. In the UK, the Humane Slaughter Association has been involved in this for years, although I haven't heard about recent progress. I don't know their email, but they share a building with the Universities Federation for Animal Welfare (ufaw@ufaw.org.uk) who would pass on a message. Mike From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 28-OCT-1998 03:49:57.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: turkeys/UV/aggression UPDATE...UPDATE...UPDATE Dear All, It seems I was a little premature in suggesting in a previous posting that the sudden appearance of UV radiation was responsible for an increase in aggression amongst turkeys. We had a similar response (though a little delayed and not as vigorous) when the white fluorescent lights which the turkeys have been housed under for 15 weeks were increased from 10 lux to 30 lux. So, it appears that a sudden increase in light intensity (UV or white light with minimal UV) can trigger spontaneous aggression amongst turkeys which have been housed together for 15 weeks. It is the speed at which this happens that surprises me - aggressive postures/vocalisations occur within 30 seconds of the intensity being increased, and subside 15 seconds after the lights are turned off. Any ideas? ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"robin.gregory@zoology.oxford.ac.uk" "ROB G" 28-OCT-1998 05:00:36.12 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" "Chris Sherwin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: turkeys/UV/aggression Hi Chris, It's interesting that you should get such an increase in aggression so shortly after increasing the house light intensity. I would have expected a 'lag' period after such a change, as the animals took stock of their surroundings, prior to reacting to the change. It's possible that the 'pre-change' light levels were not sufficently high enough to allow discrimination of flockmates between turkeys. When the lights were turned up however, the turkeys were able to tell that there were other turkeys close by and reacted to them by fighting (to establish dominance relationships)? Were these flocks of males or females, by the way? I am particularly interested by these observations in terms of their relevance to social strategies. I am not aware if turkeys form hierarchies similar to those of chickens, but the fact that given adequate light intensity, they will fight, even under large flock conditions, suggests to me that they are 'hard-wired' with respect to sorting out dominance relationships. This could have ramifications for the welfare of turkeys in large flocks, as trying to form a dominance relationship with each of several thousand birds, would be both time consuming and the costs involved in these interactions would never be paid back in the animals lifetime, making it a maladaptive strategy under large group conditions. When you turn the lights back up after a 'dark' period, have you noticed whether the same birds interact each time? If they do, this might suggest that they aren't moving around too much, in which case the strategy of interacting might not be maladaptive. Of course, an alternative explanation might be that they didn't have enough time during the light period to sort out the dominance relationship, or that they 'forgot' the identity of the combatant between light periods. Either way, from your observations, aggression in turkeys would appear to be moderated to a large extent by changes in light intensity, probably resulting from an increase in visual information about the environment, that the high light intensity gives. Hope that these 'off the cuff' comments help you. Let me know how you get on. Cheers! ROB GREGORY ------------------------------------------------------------------- Robin Gregory Animal Behaviour Research Group, Department of Zoology, South Parks Road, Oxford, OX1 3PS, ------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch" "Helen Hirt" 28-OCT-1998 05:55:52.92 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: turkeys/UV/aggression Chris Sherwin wrote: > UPDATE...UPDATE...UPDATE > > Dear All, > > It seems I was a little premature in suggesting in a previous > posting that the sudden appearance of UV radiation was responsible for > an increase in aggression amongst turkeys. We had a similar response > (though a little delayed and not as vigorous) when the white > fluorescent lights which the turkeys have been housed under for 15 > weeks were increased from 10 lux to 30 lux. So, it appears that a > sudden increase in light intensity (UV or white light with minimal UV) > can trigger spontaneous aggression amongst turkeys which have been > housed together for 15 weeks. It is the speed at which this happens > that surprises me - aggressive postures/vocalisations occur within 30 > seconds of the intensity being increased, and subside 15 seconds after > the lights are turned off. > > Any ideas? Hi Chris,10 lux is not enough light for seeing!!! (Specialy not for colours). I had several times the impression that turkeys raised with low light intensitys like 10 lux don't react the same as turkeys with normal dayligt. When turkeys see something new they first go away, than start gobbeling and than come closer with very much curiosity. If you enter a fattening hall with 10 lux lightening the turkeys show hardly any reaction. You can make an additional test be moving your hand slowly towards a turkeys eye. I bet the animal don't react before 30 cm! They just don't see your hand! I could make an other bet: If you raised turkeys with 100 lux and increased the lightining to 300 lux you wouldn't see that much increase in aggressive social interactions as you see from 10 to 30 lux. So encreasing the light from 10 to 30 lux could be a treshold for seeing (maybe colours) in turkeys. If you increase the light the turkeys start seeing each other totaly new and than they start fighting for a rankorder order. If it is like this, that we are housing turkeys with so low light intensitys that they can't see each other porperly, we do have a serious welfare problem! --------------------------------------- Helen Hirt Research Institute of Organic Agriculture FiBL Ackerstrasse Postfach CH-5070-Frick Tel. ++41 62 865 72 56 Fax: ++41 62 865 72 73 Email: helen.hirt@fibl.ch * visit our homepage at: http://www.fibl.ch From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 28-OCT-1998 07:38:49.31 To: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch" "Helen Hirt" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: turkeys/UV/aggression Dear Helen, Do you have any evidence that turkeys are not able to see at 10 lux, particularly colours? If so, I would be grateful for any references. My own experience is that I am able to see colours at 10 lux and I can recognise individual turkeys at this intensity (especially using the bright colours of their heads). The turkeys also appear to be able to see at this intensity; they avoid crashing into each other, at younger ages they fly over visual barriers rather than running into them, they walk directly to feeders and drinkers, and they will move away from me at distances greater than 2m (I think this suggests your hand-movement test might not be applicable). I agree their vision might be impaired compared to if they were kept at 30 or 100 lux, but I do not believe they cannot see at all. I'm not sure that keeping animals in lighting conditions where they do not form a hierarchy really constitutes a welfare problem in itself, unless the animals are constantly encountering 'strangers' and experiencing 'stress' as a result. However, I certainly agree with you that the lighting environments frequently used in rearing turkeys can have adverse effects on welfare. For instance, it has been reported that keeping turkeys at low light intensity (1 lux) in conjunction with long photoperiods results in changes in eye morphology or retinal detachment such that complete blindness occurs (Harrison et al., 1968; Siopes et al., 1984). Regards, Chris Sherwin > > Hi Chris,10 lux is not enough light for seeing!!! (Specialy not for > colours). > > I had several times the impression that turkeys raised with low light > intensitys like 10 lux don't react the same as turkeys with normal > dayligt. When turkeys see something new they first go away, than start > gobbeling and than come closer with very much curiosity. If you enter a > fattening hall with 10 lux lightening the turkeys show hardly any > reaction. You can make an additional test be moving your hand slowly > towards a turkeys eye. I bet the animal don't react before 30 cm! They > just don't see your hand! I could make an other bet: If you raised turkeys > with 100 lux and increased the lightining to 300 lux you wouldn't see that > much increase in aggressive social interactions as you see from 10 to 30 > lux. So encreasing the light from 10 to 30 lux could be a treshold for > seeing (maybe colours) in turkeys. If you increase the light the turkeys > start seeing each other totaly new and than they start fighting for a > rankorder order. > > If it is like this, that we are housing turkeys with so low light > intensitys that they can't see each other porperly, we do have a serious > welfare problem! > > --------------------------------------- > Helen Hirt > > Research Institute of Organic Agriculture > FiBL > Ackerstrasse > Postfach > CH-5070-Frick > > Tel. ++41 62 865 72 56 > Fax: ++41 62 865 72 73 > Email: helen.hirt@fibl.ch > * visit our homepage at: http://www.fibl.ch > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 28-OCT-1998 08:25:20.57 To: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: turkeys/UV/aggression hris Sherwin wrote: So, it appears that a > sudden increase in light intensity (UV or white light with minimal UV) > can trigger spontaneous aggression amongst turkeys which have been> housed together for 15 weeks. >>> Domestic chickens (hens and cocks) in stable groups always do a lot of fighting and threatening at sunrise. I always assumed it was related to singing of songbirds at dawn, in some way. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"ie7@umail.umd.edu" "Inma Estevez" 28-OCT-1998 09:40:31.61 To: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch" "Helen Hirt" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: turkeys/UV/aggression Dear All, Broilers in many countries are keep in open side houses were they can get natural light everyday if the weather conditions allow to do so. When the curtain drop they usually become very active not only in terms of fighting and aggression but also they engage in vigorous playing behavior, more walking and running events which I think is great for them. This increase in activity will happen everytime the curtails come down even if this happen 20 times per day.... IT is important to say that even with the curtain up they see (and I can see,... and even read) with no problem (I think the light intensity with curtains up are over 100 lux). I also noticed a similar increases in activity when the curtains were down permanently for the day but there was a strong light variation because of clouds and sun coming in and out. So....I do not think the changes in behavior can't really be explained ONLY based in effects of light intensity on recognition between birds, specially if we are talking about large groups. ---------------------- Inma Estevez Ph.D. Department of Animal and Avian Sciences University of Maryland College Park, MD 20742, USA Telephone: 301-405-5779 Fax: 301-314-9059 E-mail: ie7@umail.umd.edu From: IN%"robin.gregory@zoology.oxford.ac.uk" "ROB G" 28-OCT-1998 10:11:34.12 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: turkeys/UV/aggression On Wed, 28 Oct 1998, Jeff Rushen wrote: > hris Sherwin wrote: > So, it appears that a > sudden increase in light intensity (UV or white light with minimal UV) > can trigger spontaneous aggression amongst turkeys which have been> housed together for 15 weeks. >>> > > Domestic chickens (hens and cocks) in stable groups always do a lot of fighting and threatening at sunrise. I always assumed it was > related to singing of songbirds at dawn, in some way. > Jeff Rushen > Dear All, Could this behaviour not act to reinforce the stability of the social order of the flock, after the birds have spent the night roosting? Just a thought. ROB GREGORY From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 28-OCT-1998 10:34:43.89 To: IN%"robin.gregory@zoology.oxford.ac.uk" CC: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: turkeys/UV/aggression >>> ROB G 10/28 11:10 am >>>Dear All, Could this behaviour not act to reinforce the stability of the social order of the flock, after the birds have spent the night roosting?>>> That is a plausible functional explanation. I guess one test would be to remove some birds just before sunrise (or the onset of the light) and return them once the fighting was over. Would this destabilize their positions in the flock? However, I am curious as to what the mechanism could be. It may be related to some memory decay during the night when the birds can not see each other so well, or at least do not interact so much. If so, we might find the same level of aggression following the return of a bird who had been taken out of the flock, during the day time, for the same length of time (hasn't this be done by someone?). Alternatively, the aggression may be triggered by some physiological changes associated with the onset of day. I presume we know something about what these are e.g. a drop in melatonin, increases in serotonin etc. Does anybody actually know anything about this? Jeff Rushen ! ! From: IN%"w.schoo@noldus.nl" "Wineke Schoo" 28-OCT-1998 10:46:44.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Measuring Behavior '98 Conference Proceedings Measuring Behavior '98: Conference Proceedings available on-line In August of this year, the Measuring Behavior '98 conference was held in Groningen, The Netherlands. This meeting brought together almost 300 scientists who presented and discussed new methods and techniques in behavioral research. The proceedings of the conference, which comprise 358 pages in print, have recently been placed on the web. You can access them at http://www.noldus.com/events/mb98/mb98.htm. The proceedings include some 150 summaries of presentations, with illustrations and links to other resources. Both an index by topic and an index by author are provided. We hope you will find it a useful source of information. Copies of the printed edition are still available too. The book comes as a handy spiral-bound volume and costs NLG 50,- (US$ 30) plus postage. Orders can be sent to the conference secretariat at the address below. Because of the small amount, we can only accept payment via credit card. Credit card number, cardholder's name and expiry date must be provided with the order. With kind regards, Wineke Schoo Chair, local organizing committee Measuring Behavior '98 Conference Secretariat P.O. Box 268 6700 AG Wageningen The Netherlands Phone: +31-317-497677 Fax: +31-317-424496 E-mail: mb98@noldus.nl Web: http://www.noldus.com/events/mb98/mb98.htm From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 29-OCT-1998 03:35:34.58 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Social organization in layinghens Dear Helen and others > Is it a problem of capability that we can't recognize individual > relationships in herd with 2000 hens or is there a continuing adaptation > of social organization? Can layinghens form something like a swarm? How > can we measure the socal organization of a swarm? What can we measure to > compare the social organisation in the different groupe sizes (beside > aggressiv interacions and injuries)? What other social organization > beside a swarm could we think of? And can a swarm as a socail > organization fulfill the welfare of laying hens? I've looked at movements and other behaviour in large flocks of hens and they do indeed have non-random use of area, but still overlapping with so many other individuals that individual recognition is very unlikely. In fact Barry Hughes and others have recently pointed out that aggression is low in very large flocks and suggested that counter-intuitively the failure to recognise other individuals might be a welfare advantage of larger flocks over small ones. Certainly I reckon that the general social pattern is to have some assertive individuals that move around with heads up (and occasionally meet each other and clash), some submissive individuals that avoid all others, and a middling mass of pragmatic individuals that avoid the assertive ones and peck the submissive ones, but largely ignore other pragmatics. So the 'badges' are mostly behavioural, although there may well be physical correlates. Every now and again, someone suggests that there might be 'bands' of individuals that know each other, moving around such houses en masse, but I've never seen any evidence for this and I think it extremely unlikely. I'm not sure what you mean by a swarm here, except to say that, in broiler breeder houses where birds are food-restricted and very active, there are waves of contagious movement, in which a large number of birds will suddenly run in one direction, then back. I say 'waves' and on speeded up video it looks likes waves swashing around in a confined space. I'd like to study this in more detail: who starts the movement, and how quickly does it propogate? It is reminiscent of the extremely coordinated movements in a flying flock of, say, starlings. Best wishes Mike Refs: Appleby et al 1985. Movement by domestic fowl in commercial flocks. Poultry Science 64: 48-50. Appleby et al 1986. Nesting and floor laying by domestic hens in a commercial flock. British Poultry Science 27: 75-82. Hughes et al 1997 Low incidence of aggression in large flocks of laying hens. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 54, 215-234. Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies in Agriculture & Resource Economics Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh West Mains Road Edinburgh EH9 3JG, UK Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"robin.gregory@zoology.oxford.ac.uk" "ROB G" 29-OCT-1998 04:48:45.80 To: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Social organization in layinghens Dear All, The idea of behavioural badges is very interesting. Wilson (1974) showed that the likely winner of an aggressive paired encounter could be predicted by the posture of the hen before the encounter occurred, with winners having more upright stances than losers. If hens in large flocks do adopt a characteristic 'pose' which reflects their average success in aggressive encounters, we might be able to identify different 'classes' of hen in a flock, as Mike suggested. Under conditions of low light intensity, it would probably be easier to recognise status differences in posture, based on silhouette, than to rely on more subtle cues, which might prove difficult to discriminate under such conditions. Bye for now. ROB GREGORY Ref: Wilson, R.H., (1974), Agonistic postures and latency to first interaction during initial pair encounters in the Red Junglefowl, Animal Behaviour 22, 75-82. From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 29-OCT-1998 07:34:41.84 To: IN%"robin.gregory@zoology.oxford.ac.uk" "ROB G" CC: IN%"helen.hirt@fibl.ch", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" Subj: RE: turkeys/UV/aggression But why should the turkeys risk serious injury, possibly even death, just to reinforce social order? Surely it would be less costly to have some form of ritualised display. Chris On Wed, 28 Oct 1998 16:10:01 +0000 (GMT) ROB G wrote: > Dear All, > Could this behaviour not act to reinforce the stability of the > social order of the flock, after the birds have spent the night roosting? > > Just a thought. > > ROB GREGORY > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 29-OCT-1998 11:05:00.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: 2 research posts at Edinburgh As stated below, two research posts are available at the University of Edinburgh. Details are on the University website as indicated. If after reading those details you want to talk about the posts, you may contact Dr Vince Molony ( tel. +44 (0) 131 650 6110, email vincem@lab0.vet.ed.ac.uk). He's sometimes difficult to get hold of, but please try rather than contacting me! Mike UNIVERSITY OF EDINBURGH 2 Research Posts (Animal Welfare) Two SHEFC supported positions in the University of Edinburgh's Animal Welfare Research Group are available from January 1st 1999. The posts are to develop animal welfare research by establishing a Centre for the Application of Neurobiology in Animal Welfare Research and by developing interdisciplinary studies in collaboration with animal welfare research groups in the Scottish Agricultural College, the Roslin Institute and the Moredun Research Institute. Factors which influence animal welfare will be studied using behavioural, physiological, biochemical and neurobiological methods. Post 1. Senior Research Associate (3 years) This will be filled by a senior animal welfare researcher with post-doctoral or equivalent experience in the design, prosecution, analysis and presentation of experimental animal welfare research using quantitative behavioural and physiological methods. Candidates will be expected to have made a substantial contribution to Animal Welfare Research through publication and to have made significant contributions to several successful grant applications. The appointee will be expected to liaise with participating institutions, organise and carry out collaborative trials, co-ordinate laboratory analysis of samples and contribute to the development and maintenance of a web-site. Salary on the AR2 scale. Post 2. Research Associate (3 years) This post will be filled by a neurobiologist with post-doctoral or equivalent experience of design, prosecution, analysis and presentation of experimental research. Experience should include application of a range of neurobiological methods that can be applied to studies of pain, stress, fear and other such aversive experiences. Candidates will be expected to have made significant contributions to their research fields through publication and have contributed to preparation of successful grant applications. The appointee will be expected to assist in the development of neurobiological research facilities and to collaborate in interdisciplinary animal welfare research. Salary on the AR1A scale. Further particulars including details of the application procedure should be obtained from: The Personnel Office, 1 Roxburgh Street, Edinburgh EH8 9TB. Tel: +44 (0) 131- 650 - 2511 http//www.personnel.ed.ac.uk/recruit.htm E-mail personnel@ed.ac.uk Please quote reference .......... 896809. post 1)...................... 896810. (post 2) Closing date for receipt of applications is November 27th 1998. From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 29-OCT-1998 12:11:50.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: birds, lights and hormones Hello all! Re: the behavioural changes seen in turkeys and chickens with light changes. I am currently doing some work on the biological effects of different light wavelengths (spectrum) on reptiles. Part of this work includes investigation into the wavelengths needed for reptilian biology and their correlates available in commercial lighting products. Reptilian behaviour is affected by different wavelengths of light. For example, some lights will instigate "fighting" while other lights affect appetite and mating. Iguanas have been found to regurgitate their food when under blacklight (UVA) and this is interesting considering iguanas have two GI sphincters that must be passed in order to regurgitate. Some reptiles appear to not recognize their food under some wavelengths and this is interesting as smell is important to many reptilian species yet the appearance of the food seemed to be more important. In short: there is an evolutionary relationship between birds and reptiles. The observations here on the effect of light on chickens and turkeys seems to support a homologous relationship between the interaction of pineal gland, hormones, perception and observable behaviour in birds and reptiles. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 --MAA17450.909683751/wright.aps.uoguelph.ca-- dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"claude.beata@wanadoo.fr" 30-OCT-1998 05:31:25.50 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Ethology Congress Lyon 1999 - Announcement The CNVSPA congress, which will be held in Lyon, France, in 1999, will be an international conference. Our group (specialised veterinary group in pets behaviour) Gecaf has decided to precede it with a two-day international ethology conference. We'll be speaking about clinical ethology and all ohers ethological topics… Day One : September, 21st All the sessions will last for 25 minutes, and will be followed by 5 minutes of questions and answers. Twelve, half-hour sessions have been scheduled for day one. During the breaks, authors can take up their positions in front of their posters. Day two : September, 22nd At the start of the day, participants will be able to choose between two rooms. The first room will consider the management of clinical ethology, while the second, in a more conventional manner, will deal with topics relating to research in ethology. In the first room, the sessions will follow the same timetable as on day one, i.e. twelve half-hour sessions and two 45-minute coffee breaks in addition to the lunch break. In the second room, the sessions will be limited to 15 minutes with 5 minutes of questions and answers. This structure will thus allow 5 sessions to take place from 9 a.m. to 10:40 a.m. with a break from 10:40 to 11:20 and then five further sessions lasting 15+5 minutes, finishing at 1 p.m.. In the afternoon, the conference will resume in a single room, as on day one, with three 30-minute sessions from 2:30 p.m. to 4 p.m., a half-hour break and then three further sessions from 4:30 p.m. to 6 p.m. Call for speakers We hope this meeting will be a full occasion for an international exchange of ideas. The organisation is independent from the CNVSPA congress so everybody will get a good opportunity to present his work. All propositions will be examined independently of CNVSPA lectures. Applications to speak at the sessions will be accepted from March 1st, 1998 up until December 31th, 1998. The applications must be sent to the committee (address below) in the form of a 1800-character summary (approx.), i.e. one page of 12-point characters in Times New Roman-type font. Each applicant must supply three copies, one with his name and details, and two additional anonymous copies such that the summaries can be read without knowing the name of the author. The applicant is requested to attach to this summary a brief but accurate description of the presentation techniques he/she intends to use. The organising committee wishes to avoid, wherever possible, the use of overheads and can offer technical assistance to anyone who is unable to produce slides for themselves. To apply for this assistance, simply explain the circumstances to the committee, who nonetheless reserve the right to refuse depending on the resources available. In the summary, the applicant must indicate the type of presentation that he/she intends giving (duration, poster-type presentation, etc.). Applicants will be selected on the basis of an evaluation table filled in individually by each member of the selection committee. (The office keeps a list of the members of this committee which it can send to anybody interested). The summaries will be read anonymously, and replies will be given no later than February 1998. The applicant will then have until April 30 th to supply a text in a previously defined format. The text must be in English, and accompanied by a summary in the author's own language. A French translation will be most helpful. A bibliography must also be attached. This text will be published, unmodified, in an anthology (the publishing work will be put out to tender). The official language of the meeting is French but all the texts must be provided with an English translation. Slides and posters should be presented in both languages if possible. Lectures will be simultaneously translated For any further questions, please contact me claude.beata@wanadoo.fr fax number: + 33 494 316 758 or contact gmuller@nordnet.fr Fax number + 33 320 314 640 Committee (to send texts) Mondial d’éthologie 112 rue du Faubourg de Roubaix 59800 Lille France We are waiting for your proposals coming from anywhere in the world ! Claude BEATA DVM Graduate in Clinical Ethology Veterinary Behaviourist certified by French Veterinary Schools