From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 15-OCT-2001 10:17:23.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: socialization of shy dogs > Jackie Wepruk & Rick Austin wrote: > > Hello Everyone, > > This will be rather long-winded, but I am hoping that someone with more > behavioural and early socialization experience can help me to make some > decisions about a volunteer effort I am involved with. I am coordinating the > rescue of several Siberian Huskies seized by the Alberta SPCA in August. Two > of these rescued dogs have me in a dilemma about whether they can ever make > good pets for someone. I am willing to work with these dogs if there is a > good chance for success, however, I need to be responsible to the dogs and to > anyone who might want to adopt them (as well as any foster home). I am trying > to look practically at the long term prognosis for these dogs to make good > pets who can fit into human society. I do not want to invest too much > emotionally if there is a low possibility of success, but I also do not want > to write them off prematurely. The bottom line question is: Can 8 month old > unsocialized dogs be socialized to the point of making good pets that are not > a risk to the public or their families? > > So, here's the background: > > The dogs were seized at 7 months of age. One male, one female, probably > littermates. Their history is unknown in terms of socialization experience. > They likely knew one female in their lifetime (the accused) and her care of > them was sporadic. Upon first viewing the dogs in early August they were > extremely frightened of humans. They scattered in their kennels and had to be > cornered and caught to be handled. They did tolerate handling without > aggression. Their reaction was one of freezing in fear. After two weeks in > quarantine where the kennel owner did some work with them they would make some > approach to the kennel gate, but dart away when humans came near. I placed > them in a foster home where they were separated and kenneled with well > socialized friendly huskies. They stayed there for 1 1/2 months and their > progress was limited. The foster home did not walk them on leash (did try > once with one and of course she had to be dragged) and they did not come > inside a house. The foster home did spend time daily trying to get them to > come for food. They reached the point where they would take food from her > hand, but she still had to corner and catch them to handle them. Their > response has always been to freeze when caught. They have been bathed and > handled for grooming. The male is slightly more willing to come up to people > than the female. They are both well socialized with other dogs, but very > submissive. The foster home also said they would not eat their kibble food in > her presence. They also would not approach her husband and barked at him. > > I invited another rescuer to help me evaluate these pups yesterday. They were > exactly as the foster home described and we made the decision that they would > likely not advance much further and therefore should be euthanized. I brought > them home and had an appointment made for the next day, which I obviously have > not kept. > > Upon bringing them home I fed the female (the shier of the two). I feed > homemade food and she had no trouble eating in my presence. The next morning > they both ate kibble with me sitting a few feet away. They have approached me > to take treats and the male did wag his tail at me when I spoke to him. I > massaged the female this morning and she did seem to respond. When my husband > approached them the male came to the fence to lick his finger (looking for > food). The female refused, but he was able to catch her and pet her, though > she again froze in fear. We plan on bringing them in the house if we are > going to continue with re-socializing them. > > I know what would need to be done in terms of socialization. My question is, > if we go through the effort, what are our chances of success with these two > being 8 months old now? If they socialize to us, then we need to teach them > to generalize their trust to others. How much could they advance? When I > worked at the Red Deer SPCA we had a similar case with a 4 month old husky > cross that was unsocialized. We worked with her for several months until we > found a great home willing to take her and continue the work. After a year > she had to be put down because she became territorial of their yard, lunging > at strangers, and still had never learned to accept the male of the > household. I do not want to make this mistake again. > > If anyone has dealt with dogs like this and can give me long term results and > advice I would be most appreciative. I want rational, balanced and > experienced views on this - as the emotions are already running high. If > there have been studies that can address this issue I would love to hear of > them. Emotionally it would be easy to save them from euthanasia, but I want > to know that this is also a responsible thing to do. I don't think you can know whether it's a mistake until you have tried it. It sounds to me as if the preliminary signs were positive ... and bringing them into the house is certainly a key step. A kennel environment is not really favorable to socialization. They need to *live* with people. I would keep them together because they are probably each for the other the only constant and trustworthy beings they have ever known, and that will help their confidence. That they freeze without showing aggression or fear biting when handled is also IMO a positive sign. So in your place I would definitely give it a try. There's nothing to lose, after all, for the dogs anyway. For the humans it's an investment of time, money and especially emotions, but we all know there are no free lunches ... especially in rescue work. I have no firsthand experience with Siberians. What I have most experience of are Salukis, best described as "semidomesticated" animals who still have a relatively intact system of instinctive behavior. Within that breed I have known individuals who remained somewhat spooky (though not unmanageable) in spite of what one would have thought to be optimal socialization, and others which after horrible experiences were socialized from a semi-wild state as adults - up to several years old - with relative ease. I would say the primary factor there is genetic - not breed differences, but individual differences. You can't find out about those (unless you know the bloodline very well) any way except trying it. Then, the next important factor is to build a really strong relationship with the dogs. If they come to trust you enough they will in time generalize that to other humans, especially if you can get them "out and about" regularly. One confirmed "spook" Saluki (the first three years of her life had been pretty rough) I took to work every day, to an office (well, a laboratory with offices) where there was a good deal of human activity. After a few weeks of that she became fairly bulletproof and thereafter got along easily with all kinds of people. One of the strongest relationship-builders is working with a dog. I take my Salukis hunting and that experience can transform a dog's entire attitude toward life, the world and people. The comparable experience for Siberians would be sled work. John -- John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ saluqi@ix.netcom.com From: IN%"Nicoline.Geverink@Etho.VH.WAU.NL" 16-OCT-2001 06:31:20.56 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Benelux regional ISAE meeting On Tue Oct 16 13:45:33 2001, Dinand Ekkel@Etho@VH.WAU wrote: Dear all, At the 15th of November this year, a regional ISAE meeting in the BeNeLux will be held in Lelystad, The Netherlands. As many of you will know, within The Netherlands, a main research topic of the last 10 years has been the existence and manifestation of different coping styles in pigs. Since most of the research projects within that topic have come to an end now, we thought it would be a good idea to discuss this topic at a regional meeting with the title : 'Different coping styles in pigs - facts or fiction ?' We have asked several scientists that have studied coping styles in pigs with various interest (effects of the environment, immunological aspects, relation with production performances) to present their view, based on their scientific work. Those of you who do not live in Belgium, Luxembourg or The Netherlands but are interested in this topic and would like to receive the final program of this meeting, please contact me at: dinand.ekkel@etho.vh.wau.nl or contact Harry Blokhuis at h.j.blokhuis@id.wag-ur.nl Kind regards, Dinand Ekkel Dr. E.D. Ekkel Animal Husbandry Group Department of Animal Sciences Wageningen University P.O. Box 338 / 6700 AH Wageningen Building 531 / Marijkeweg 40/ 6709 PG Wageningen The Netherlands Telephone +31 (0)317 483968 / 483120 Telefax +31 (0)317 485006 E-mail: Dinand.Ekkel@etho.vh.wau.nl Internet: www.zod.wageningen-ur.nl/etho From: IN%"i106pc08@edvznovell2.vu-wien.ac.at" "Kristin Hagen" 18-OCT-2001 05:50:03.73 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Salivary cortisol in cows Dear list members! Several months ago there was a discussion on this list about swabs made of different materials (cotton etc.) and their use in saliva sampling for cortisol analysis. Not knowing that I would soon want to take saliva samples myself I didn't pay attention - can someone remind me what materials were unsuited because of their binding properties, and what materials can be recommended? We are planning to measure cortisol in saliva in dairy cows, but have not done this before. I would be very interested if those who have experience with this technique in cattle could give some advice and maybe provide some literature references - I have searched but feel that I can not have found everything. Thanks! Kristin ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Kristin Hagen Institute of Animal Husbandry and Animal Welfare University of Veterinary Sciences Vienna Veterin=E4rplatz 1 1221 Wien, Austria Tel: +43 (0)1 250774910 Fax: +43 (0)1 250774990 From: IN%"Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch" "Beat Wechsler" 18-OCT-2001 08:13:22.07 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"ISAEnet-l@usask.ca" "ISAE Mitglieder" CC: Subj: GERMAN VETERINARY SOCIETY - SECTION OF APPLIED ETHOLOGY 33rd INTERNATIONAL CONGRESS ON APPLIED ETHOLOGY 2001 FREIBURG/GERMANY, 15 - 17 NOVEMBER 2001 Those interested in the programme my have a look at: http://www.dvg.net/ethol1101.htm --------------------------------------------------------------- Beat Wechsler Swiss Federal Veterinary Office Centre for proper housing of ruminants and pigs CH-8356 Taenikon - Switzerland SMTP: Beat.Wechsler@fat.admin.ch X.400: G=Beat;S=Wechsler;O=fat;A=admin;C=ch FAX: ++41 52 365 11 90 Phone: ++41 52 368 31 31 From: IN%"ikilledkenny@mindspring.com" "Stephanie Johnson" 18-OCT-2001 14:11:35.14 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: My name is Stephanie Johnson. I am a senior in high school and have always had a tremendous interest in animals and their behavior. At my school seniors have to do a senior project with 120 hours of work on their chosen project. For my project I plan to do a career plan on how to become an Ethologist and also study some of the basic animal behaviors. If anybody has any information that they think would be helpful to me, feel free to e-mail me at: ikilledkenny@mindspring.com Thank You! Stephanie Johnson From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 18-OCT-2001 17:04:17.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: Magnesium effects on behaviour All I've received a query relating to high levels (I've not been given figures) of magnesium in feed having the effect of calming animals (in this case specifically bulls) and making them quiet and docile. A limited search hasn't provided much, but I wondered if anybody had any experience of this in any species. I'd greatly appreciate your comments. Thanks. Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au tel: (0)7 4923 8200 fax: (0)7 4923 8222 ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 19-OCT-2001 14:29:32.63 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Posting" CC: Subj: RE: Magnesium effects on behaviour Hi Carol, Magnesium deficiency, hypomagnesaemia, is a common problem in grazing ruminants. Cattle typically show excitability in low-grade hypomagnesaemia, sheep show muscle trembling and spasms. Magnesium supplementation will prevent these effects and therefore might appear to have a "calming effect". However, magnesium toxicity is a serious risk - supplementation levels need to be carefully controlled - there is a risk of diarrhoea and urolithiasis if high levels are ingested. A comprehensive account of the functions, dietary recommendations, deficiencies and toxicities of magnesium can be found in the standard textbook "Mineral Nutrition of Farm Livestock", details of the new 3rd edition, just published this year, are at: http://www.pighealth.com/MEDIA/P/BOOKS/BKDETAIL/MINERALS.HTM Mike Meredith ----- Original Message ----- From: "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" To: "'ethology'" Sent: Friday, October 19, 2001 12:02 AM Subject: Magnesium effects on behaviour > All > I've received a query relating to high levels (I've not been given figures) > of magnesium in feed having the effect of calming animals (in this case > specifically bulls) and making them quiet and docile. A limited search > hasn't provided much, but I wondered if anybody had any experience of this > in any species. > I'd greatly appreciate your comments. > Thanks. > > Carol > > "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way > its animals are treated." > Mahatma Gandhi > > Carol Petherick > Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) > Queensland Beef Industry Institute > Tropical Beef Centre > PO Box 5545 > Central Qld Mail Centre > Rockhampton > Qld 4702 > Australia > > email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au > tel: (0)7 4923 8200 > fax: (0)7 4923 8222 > > > ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** > The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages > (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally > privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity > to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of > disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken > or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions > contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions > of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received > this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and > delete it from your computer system network. > From: IN%"mhawkins@zoo.nsw.gov.au" "Hawkins, Margaret" 20-OCT-2001 00:45:51.46 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: 5th International Conference on Environmental Enrichment 5TH INTERNATIONAL CONFERENCE ON ENVIRONMENTAL ENRICHMENT Making Enrichment A 21st Century Priority TARONGA ZOO, SYDNEY, AUSTRALIA 4TH NOVEMBER - 9TH NOVEMBER 2001 The updated programme is now available on conference page on the Taronga Zoo website: http//www.zoo.nsw.gov.au Margaret Hawkins 5IEE Conference Coordinator Behavioural Biologist Taronga Zoo Sydney, Australia From: IN%"mappleby@hsus.org" "Michael Appleby" 24-OCT-2001 11:56:19.72 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Posts available Dear All We have two posts available here at HSUS and the advertisements follow. For further details please contact Nancy Allen as indicated. Best wishes Mike Appleby Director of Program Management / Agricultural Economist The Humane Society of the United States (www.hsus.org) seeks qualified applicants experienced in farm animal welfare to direct programs in farming systems and agricultural business and economics, developing economic strategies for improvement of farm animal welfare. Reporting to the Vice President of Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture, the Director will have line management of several staff researching and campaigning on farming systems. Qualifications include a relevant degree or extensive experience, and strong research, organizational, oral and written communication skills. Excellent benefits package and competitive salary. Applicants should submit a cover letter, curriculum vitae and contact details for 3 referees to The HSUS/HR, 700 Professional Drive, Gaithersburg, MD 20879 (where the post will be based), FAX 301-548-7701, nallen@hsus.org, 301-548-7757. *EOE* Campaign Manager The Humane Society of the United States (www.hsus.org) seeks a Campaign Manager for its Farm Animals & Sustainable Agriculture section. Reporting to the section Vice President, the Manager will develop and coordinate strategy for programs and projects that address animal welfare in large scale agricultural production. Qualifications include a relevant degree or extensive experience, and strong organizational, oral and written communication skills. Excellent benefits package and competitive salary. Applicants should submit a cover letter, curriculum vitae and contact details for 3 referees to The HSUS/HR, 700 Professional Drive, Gaithersburg, MD 20879 (where the post will be based), FAX 301-548-7701, nallen@hsus.org, 301-548-7757. *EOE* Michael C. Appleby (Dr) Vice-President Farm Animals and Sustainable Agriculture Humane Society of the United States 2100 L Street, NW Washington, DC 20037, USA Switchboard 1 202 452 1100 Direct 1 301 258 3111 Fax 1 301 258 3081 Email mappleby@hsus.org From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 30-OCT-2001 16:48:34.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: Bulls and magnesium All Thanks to those who responded to my query. For those interested - from what I gathered it appears that a deficiency in magnesium is not uncommon in cattle and the symptoms can include excitability, making cattle difficult to handle. Correcting the deficiency makes the animals calmer and more tractable. Coincidentally I'm currently working with some Brahman bulls, half of which have been supplemented with commercial 'bull pellets' and the others have just been grazing native pasture. I'm not sure if these pellets are the same brand over which concern has been expressed. We have also been recording the flight speed (measure of temperament) of these bulls. I checked their speeds before supplementation started and the latest measures (about 5 months apart) and found that the unsupplemented animals have stayed about the same, whilst the supplemented bulls have actually got slightly faster (ie their temperament has deteriorated slightly) - just the opposite effect to that suggested by those concerned about these commercial bull feeds. Please Note Change of Address as of 19/11/01 AFFS (Beef) Dept Primary Industries PO Box 6014 Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia ph: (0)7 4936 0331 fax: (0)7 4936 0390 Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au tel: (0)7 4923 8200 fax: (0)7 4923 8222 ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network. From: IN%"whfeep@ihug.co.nz" "Andy Beck" 30-OCT-2001 18:30:07.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Bulls and magnesium Hi Carol - thanks for update. I note you mention 'flight speed' as a measure rather than 'flight distance' - could you give a bit more detail on this? Thanks and regards Andy Beck White Horse Equine Ethology Project Northland, NZ http://www.equine-behavior.com From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 31-OCT-2001 14:55:28.42 To: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "'Petherick, Carol (TBC)'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Bulls and magnesium All, It is interesting to discuss "optimal nutrition" and "optimal environment" in contrast to "optimal adaptation". We touched on matters relevant to this debate in 93. Quote- Donna, An interesting point! I don't think the prey/predator relationships evolved to produce the kind of stress that the job insecure human commuter endures every day! The prey creatures I have observed (real and imaged) seem to have a remarkable ability to return their flight mechanisms to baseline quickly. I think that swift *adjustment* is due in great part to the escape reward counterbalancing the escape arousal. the more intense the fear of the encounter the greater the measure of reward and the quicker the return to grazing. I think Jeff Rushen made the point that the prey creatures are very good at reading the *vectors* and judging whether they are *It* !! As to the trapping of a small prey creature in a pen with the predator I would say that the opportunity for balanced adjustment of the flight physiology would be greatly reduced. I would extend this (indeed I did at a Cat Meeting last week) to the situation where a selfish, obstinate human owner insists on forcing two cats with desperate antipathy to co-habit! I pointed out to one lady that just fencing the house between the two wretched cats was not enough. The threat proximity does not allow tranquillity to descend and I strongly believe that the immune status of the cats can be damaged. Even though they cannot physically collide. Successful escape permits rest and sleep and the prompt resumption of feeding. This is why soldiers must be withdrawn some distance from battle lines to rest fully. The most graphic image in my mind is the Zebra watching lions eat one of its fellows over on the edge of the herd. The angle of the neck, the set of the head, the alert ears and luminous eyes have all the outward signs of concern but the overriding preoccupation is really the next mouthful of grass. Rather like the average human voting in a political election ! -----Original Message----- From: Racer-Reynolds Illustration [SMTP:dreyn@sirius.com] Sent: 20 September 1998 17:29 To: robin@coape.win-uk.net Subject: Re: Doggie Addicts -----Original Message----- From: Petherick, Carol (TBC) [mailto:PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au] Sent: 30 October 2001 22:48 To: 'ethology' Subject: Bulls and magnesium end quote. It seems to me that optimal survival skills might be associated with optimal nutrition. This might not necessarily co-relate to placidity or reduced reactivity. Measures of desirable "temperament" might well not concur with the adaptive traits of vigilance, startle or defensive aggression. I suppose the question for Carol is are we measuring the speed of return to normal from arousal? Robin All Thanks to those who responded to my query. For those interested - from what I gathered it appears that a deficiency in magnesium is not uncommon in cattle and the symptoms can include excitability, making cattle difficult to handle. Correcting the deficiency makes the animals calmer and more tractable. Coincidentally I'm currently working with some Brahman bulls, half of which have been supplemented with commercial 'bull pellets' and the others have just been grazing native pasture. I'm not sure if these pellets are the same brand over which concern has been expressed. We have also been recording the flight speed (measure of temperament) of these bulls. I checked their speeds before supplementation started and the latest measures (about 5 months apart) and found that the unsupplemented animals have stayed about the same, whilst the supplemented bulls have actually got slightly faster (ie their temperament has deteriorated slightly) - just the opposite effect to that suggested by those concerned about these commercial bull feeds. Please Note Change of Address as of 19/11/01 AFFS (Beef) Dept Primary Industries PO Box 6014 Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia ph: (0)7 4936 0331 fax: (0)7 4936 0390 Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au tel: (0)7 4923 8200 fax: (0)7 4923 8222 ********************************DISCLAIMER**************************** The information contained in the above e-mail message or messages (which includes any attachments) is confidential and may be legally privileged. It is intended only for the use of the person or entity to which it is addressed. If you are not the addressee any form of disclosure, copying, modification, distribution or any action taken or omitted in reliance on the information is unauthorised. Opinions contained in the message(s) do not necessarily reflect the opinions of the Queensland Government and its authorities. If you received this communication in error, please notify the sender immediately and delete it from your computer system network.