From: IN%"ngourkow@spca.bc.ca" "Nadine Gourkow" 20-OCT-2005 12:25:41.87 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: head halters We (the BC SPCA) have received complaints from the public regarding our recommendation to use head halters for dogs. These complainants state that head halters are inhumane. Has a study been done comparing several types of collars and their effect on stress (and maybe even learning)? _____ Nadine Gourkow Animal Welfare Manager BC SPCA Administration Centre 1245 East 7th Avenue Vancouver, BC V5T 1R1 Ph. 604.709.6714 Fax. 604.681 7022 www.spca.bc.ca ngourkow@spca.bc.ca From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 20-OCT-2005 16:32:26.00 To: IN%"ngourkow@spca.bc.ca", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters There have been studies on the use of head halters in dogs and here are a few: Evaluation of Association Between Retention in the Home and Attendance at Puppy Socialization Classes J Am Vet Med Assoc 223[1]:61-66 Jul 1'03 Epidemiologic Survey 28 Refs * Margaret M. Duxbury, DVM; Julie A. Jackson; Scott W. Line, DVM, PhD, DACVB; Robert K. Anderson, DVM, MPH, DACVPM, DACVB * Center to Study Human Animal Relationships and Environments, University of Minnesota, MN 55455 OBJECTIVE: To evaluate associations between retention of dogs in their adoptive homes and attendance at puppy socialization classes and other factors. DESIGN: Epidemiologic survey. ANIMALS: 248 adult dogs that were adopted as pup-pies from a humane society. PROCEDURE: Owners completed questionnaires regarding demographics, retention of the dogs in the homes, and the dogs' early learning events. RESULTS: Higher retention in the homes was reported for dogs that participated in humane society puppy socialization classes, were female, wore head collars as puppies, were handled frequently as puppies, were more responsive to commands, slept on or near the owner's bed, or lived in homes without young children. CONCLUSIONS & CLINICAL RELVANCE: Results suggest several practices that veterinarians may recommend to enhance the likelihood that puppies will remain in their first homes, such as enrolling 7- to 12-week-old puppies in early learning and socialization classes. The lower rate of retention of dogs in homes with children emphasizes the importance of helping owners develop realistic expectations, knowledge, and effective tools to manage interactions between their children and dogs. Haug LI, Beaver BV, Longnecker MT "Comparison of dogs' reactions to 4 different head collars. Applied Animal Behaviour Science, 79 (2002) 53-61 This study did not find much difference in reactions to 4 different headcollars and the dogs did show a marked reduction in response over time. Perhaps others have some references as well. Best regards, Debra F. Horwitz, DVM DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations 11469 Olive Blvd. #254 St. Louis, MO 63141-7108 Phone and fax: 314-567-4131 e-mail: DebHdvm@aol.com From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 20-OCT-2005 17:05:30.73 To: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com", IN%"ngourkow@spca.bc.ca", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters A couple of key questions would be: * Do any studies show that such head-restrictive devices cause physical injury, which ones, and to what degree? * Do any studies show the outcome of trying to manage the dog without the head-restrictive devices once the dog has become accustomed to them? ----- There have been studies on the use of head halters in dogs and here are a few: From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 20-OCT-2005 17:30:45.82 To: IN%"rapport@comcast.net", IN%"ngourkow@spca.bc.ca", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters In a message dated 10/20/2005 6:06:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rapport@comcast.net writes: Do any studies show that such head-restrictive devices cause physical injury, which ones, and to what degree? I am reluctant to start a long discussion about head collars which may not be of interest to others but I feel I must say these are not "head restrictive" devices. Rather, they are very similar to halters worn by horses and I am not familiar with people finding those to cause physical injury in horses or refer to them as "head restrictive". I have used them for at least 15 years without incident or physical injury and I am sure many others have as well. On the other hand, I am familiar with physical injuries due to neck restrictive devices such as choke and prong collars used to control dogs. * Do any studies show the outcome of trying to manage the dog without the head-restrictive devices once the dog has become accustomed to them? Again, they are not head restrictive. When I use them they are a tool to help owners manage their dogs and teach new responses and especially how to put those responses under verbal control. Best regards, Debbie Debra F. Horwitz, DVM DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations 11469 Olive Blvd. #254 St. Louis, MO 63141-7108 Phone and fax: 314-567-4131 e-mail: DebHdvm@aol.com From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 20-OCT-2005 17:51:22.35 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters Suzanne Clothier has already written an excellent article on these. http://www.flyingdogpress.com/headhalters.html I have a comment on the studies. The well intended owners who use them may be more willing to continue using them because of a belief that they are kinder. Not because they are inherently more effective. I don't ever recall seeing a dog in one I considered well trained, only that the dog was being managed in one. Basically the dogs were still unruly and uncontrolled. If I had ever seen a dog I knew to be trained in one that was later shifted to a regular collar and then to off leash reliability I might be more impressed. Now I only think they are used by either physically impaired people who need the leverage or those who never take training far enough. The dog/owner relationship would be much better if people put in enough effort to be able to dispense with a management tool. As this article points out. Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: DebHdvm@aol.com To: rapport@comcast.net ; ngourkow@spca.bc.ca ; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 4:30 PM Subject: Re: head halters In a message dated 10/20/2005 6:06:03 P.M. Central Daylight Time, rapport@comcast.net writes: Do any studies show that such head-restrictive devices cause physical injury, which ones, and to what degree? I am reluctant to start a long discussion about head collars which may not be of interest to others but I feel I must say these are not "head restrictive" devices. Rather, they are very similar to halters worn by horses and I am not familiar with people finding those to cause physical injury in horses or refer to them as "head restrictive". I have used them for at least 15 years without incident or physical injury and I am sure many others have as well. On the other hand, I am familiar with physical injuries due to neck restrictive devices such as choke and prong collars used to control dogs. * Do any studies show the outcome of trying to manage the dog without the head-restrictive devices once the dog has become accustomed to them? Again, they are not head restrictive. When I use them they are a tool to help owners manage their dogs and teach new responses and especially how to put those responses under verbal control. Best regards, Debbie Debra F. Horwitz, DVM DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations 11469 Olive Blvd. #254 St. Louis, MO 63141-7108 Phone and fax: 314-567-4131 e-mail: DebHdvm@aol.com From: IN%"brucef@peta.org" "Bruce Friedrich" 20-OCT-2005 18:16:23.58 To: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com", IN%"rapport@comcast.net", IN%"ngourkow@spca.bc.ca", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters From the resident dog expert at PETA: =20 Head halters have been all the rage for quite a few years until very = recently. Apparently, they work wonders on pulling dogs IF you can get = your dog to wear one. There is a strap that goes over the dog's nose, = so it looks like a muzzle, but it's not. The leash is attached under the = chin, pulling the dog's nose downward when the dog pulls. This = apparently mimics what a mother dog does to her puppy when she = disciplines=AFshe puts her whole mouth over the dog's muzzle. So it = works both physically and psychologically. However, they've recently = come under fire for four reasons: (1) They put pressure on the neck by = turning the dog's head when the dog pulls, (2) some dogs can get them = off and just HATE them and won't stop pawing at them, (3) people think = that they are muzzles, so they think the dog is dangerous, and (4) dogs = tend to look depressed when they have them on.=20 =20 So a year or so ago, a new kind of harness came out called the = Sense-ation harness. It fits snugly around the dog's torso, but the = leash is attached to a metal loop in the front of the chest, so that if = a dog pulls, the dog gets turned around toward you but without putting = any stress on the neck. I used this on Dexter and really liked it except = for one thing: The chest strap is so low down that a dog can easily chew = it while wearing it, and that's exactly what Dexter did. After sewing it = up several times, ordering another one, and sewing it up several times, = I gave up and bought a different harness that didn't keep him from = pulling too well.=20 =20 UNTIL LAST NIGHT, when I received my Easy-Walk harness in the mail. Oh, = baby. This is just like the Sense-ation, only more evolved. The loop = attachment in the front has an extra loop in it, which causes a = tightening effect when the dog pulls, and I swear, last night for the = first time in two years, Dexter and I had a walk that was as nice as = nice could be. He didn't act like he even wanted to pull. So I would = recommend the Easy-Walk harness. It's available online=AFjust Google it. = And for a discussion of the pros and cons of head halters vs. front-clip = harnesses, a person could check out the February 2005 issue of The Whole = Dog Journal (1-800-424-7887 or whole-dog-journal.com). From: IN%"jerri@jerrilynn.com" "Jerri-Lynn Morrison" 20-OCT-2005 18:35:10.25 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: head halters Dogs I think have something called floating shoulders, different than humans, so my understanding is pulling on their shoulders is not any better of an idea than pulling on their necks. I agree with the email about taking the time to learn how to train the dog, and further to that, taking enough time to understand the dog, so that you know how best to train that particular dog - my experience is that they are individual beings and all learn in different ways. Jerri-Lynn Morrison From: IN%"sue@dogsinthepark.ca" "Sue Alexander" 20-OCT-2005 20:45:56.77 To: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com", IN%"rapport@comcast.net", IN%"ngourkow@spca.bc.ca", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters Although this is not a "study" I can tell you a little about my experience- I was one of the first people in Canada to use head halters twenty years ago-I had to order them from England at the time. The first thing to know about them is that you MUST NOT just slap them onto the dog and then go for a walk. Doing so is going to create havoc. They are a tool plain and simple. If you want a dog to wear a harness, a head halter or boots, you must take the time to teach them what that is all about. I use the clicker to teach the dog to place his head into the halter and then teach him using a clicker to give to the tension on his nose. Only when the dog is unconcerned about the halter do I move on to using it for walking. RK Anderson who invented the gentle leader has asked for reports of any incidence of injury for many years, and so far as I know, I am the first person who came forward to tell him about an injury-my pup was wearing one and a much larger dog ran between him and my husband. My pup was sent flying and pulled a muscle in his neck. He limped on his front left for about four days and then resolved without any medication or other intervention. If you consider the length of time that the head halter has been on the market and the fact that it was only in 2003 that I reported this injury, that is a very long time for the massive injuries that people are concerned about to be reported. I think that as with any tool, there is enormous potential for damage, both psychological and physical, when it is mis-used. But the reports aren't rolling in and I know from personal communication that Dr. Anderson has been asking the vet colleges to keep him informed. I see big problems when tools are promoted as quick fixes, and certainly the halter promotors are saying that you can put the halter on and walk out with a better behaved dog, and that is NOT my experience at all. The biggest problem I see with halters is people. People don't like them and don't work with their dogs to make them attractive. In my experience, they work and they work well-but they have to be used properly. Hope this is useful. I know it isn't a study, however it does reflect nearly twenty years of experience using the tool. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca From: IN%"sue@dogsinthepark.ca" "Sue Alexander" 20-OCT-2005 20:49:19.24 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters I don't ever recall seeing a dog in one I considered well trained, only that the dog was being managed in one. Basically the dogs were still unruly and uncontrolled. If I had ever seen a dog I knew to be trained in one that was later shifted to a regular collar and then to off leash reliability I might be more impressed. Now I only think they are used by either physically impaired people who need the leverage or those who never take training far enough. The dog/owner relationship would be much better if people put in enough effort to be able to dispense with a management tool. As this article points out. Clare I use them. I also work my dogs off leash. Or on flat collars. I use them in trained dogs to tell them about circumstances-when I am working a service dog it means "ignore the people in the crowd". Take it off and the dog knows it means you are still working but you can say hi. I used to do a demo where I had my dog in a walking harness, a prong, a flat collar, and two head halters. I would ask people which tool they would like to see demo'd and then take that tool off after the demo-impressive and effective to show people that the tool isn't the training. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca From: IN%"sue@dogsinthepark.ca" "Sue Alexander" 20-OCT-2005 21:01:36.55 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters UNTIL LAST NIGHT, when I received my Easy-Walk harness in the mail. Oh, = baby. This is just like the Sense-ation, only more evolved. The loop = attachment in the front has an extra loop in it, which causes a = tightening effect when the dog pulls, and I swear, last night for the = first time in two years, Dexter and I had a walk that was as nice as = nice could be. He didn't act like he even wanted to pull. So I would = recommend the Easy-Walk harness. It's available online=AFjust Google it. = And for a discussion of the pros and cons of head halters vs. front-clip = harnesses, a person could check out the February 2005 issue of The Whole = Dog Journal (1-800-424-7887 or whole-dog-journal.com). Now...here is another tool I LOVE but again....you still need to train! What a great marketing piece in favour of one tool and against another, = sanctioned by a big name political organization. Well written. But I = disagree with a number of points including the one about dogs looking = depressed in them. I don't know if it will work but I will attach 2 = pics as a demo-I can't see much difference myself. D'fer is dead tired = in the pictures...but his expression is pretty relaxed to my eye. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 20-OCT-2005 21:58:19.43 To: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com", IN%"ngourkow@spca.bc.ca", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters Debbie wrote: I am reluctant to start a long discussion about head collars which may not be of interest to others but I feel I must say these are not "head restrictive" devices. I am not familiar with people finding those to cause physical injury in horses or refer to them as "head restrictive". I am familiar with physical injuries due to neck restrictive devices such as choke and prong collars used to control dogs. Response: If they go around the animal's head, they are intended to restrict the animal's motion of the head to thereby control the animal. The term, "head-restrictive" is not a perjorative term, it is merely a descriptive one. Choke and pinch collars are not "neck-restrictive devices, they are control devices whose purpose is to deliver an aversive either for the purpose of negative reinforcement or punishment. Debbie wrote: Again, they are not head restrictive. When I use them they are a tool to help owners manage their dogs and teach new responses and especially how to put those responses under verbal control. Response: They restrict the motion of the animal's head for the purpose of controlling the animal. That makes them both a management tool and a head-restrictive device. Stephen Stephen C. Rafe B.S., M.S., Doctorate in progress (Adjunct professor for 30 years, specializing in behavior-based communication -- including psychology writing, speaking, English 101/301, advertising, marketing, public relations, and organizational ledership) STARFIRE (Helping dogs and their owners and trainers use positive, behavior-based methods for over 20 years as a not-for-profit service.) P.O. Box 8241 Reston, VA 20195 Email: rapport@comcast.net Website: http://www.starfire-rapport.com From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 20-OCT-2005 22:09:18.24 To: IN%"sue@dogsinthepark.ca" "Sue Alexander", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters Hi Sue -- I think we are agreeing when I say that it's not the tool, it's the user who determines whether it is being applied humanely. Even electronic collars are not inherently "bad." They can be used in a program of negative reinforcement to train through escape-avoidance learning rather than through punishment. However, it's best to couple that training with shaping and positive-reinforcement for best results. And they can also be used effectively for punishment when a life may be at stake. However, punishment only stops the dangerous behavior (when used by a trained operator): Counter-conditioning would be essential to teach a competing behavior that would prevent the stimulus from triggering the undesired ([punished) behavior in the future. Stephen STEPHEN RAFE ----- I used to do a demo where I had my dog in a walking harness, a prong, a flat collar, and two head halters. I would ask people which tool they would like to see demo'd and then take that tool off after the demo-impressive and effective to show people that the tool isn't the training. From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 21-OCT-2005 07:20:06.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Head halters Why would you need to use them? If I can train coyotes and the people at Wolf Park can train wolves , to walk on leash, what would be the need for a more resrictive device. My coyotes don't have a problem at the vet, for broken bones with restrictive devices to support the bones, but when Amber's eye got shot out and Dr. Wolf did the surgery to remove the eye, he wrapped her head very nice and neat with bandages. When she started coming out of the anisthetic, she went "nutso" trying to remove those bandages. She did not like the restriction of her head, at all! The bandages were removed and she quieted immediatly. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. From: IN%"liyucai5432773@163.com" "=?gb2312?B?wO7T8bLF?=" 21-OCT-2005 07:40:05.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "=?UNKNOWN?B?777777777777?=" CC: Subj: =?gb2312?B?QSBwcmltaXBhcm91cyBzb3dzJ2JlaGF2aW9y?= Dear all In practice I see many primiparous sows often don't let piglets suckle in intensive animal production.It may relate with environmental stress ,not having imitate object or mastitis. How can we deal with this question ?It must be involved in sows'welfare! Sincerely yours Li Yucai Northeast Agricultural University a student From: IN%"rapport@comcast.net" "STEPHEN RAFE" 21-OCT-2005 08:05:12.91 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters Hi Zen Trainer -- (I studied Zen Buddhism for the better part of two years when I was in college in Japan. ) Halters don't have bits attached. The best photos I could find in a hurry for what constitutes a halter were at: < http://www.horsetack.com/products/headgear/all/nh-menu.htm > You will see that they are separate items. I've owned, raised, and ridden horses for pleasure, show, and field-trialing dogs: They wore halters all the time but rarely had a bit in their mouths. In competition, my mare used a rolling-snaffle bit because her former owner (who raised her with P+) said that in the excitement of competition (which she loved), she liked to play with the rollers with her tongue. He was right. She did. Stephen Stephen C. Rafe B.S., M.S., Doctorate in progress (Adjunct professor for 30 years, specializing in behavior-based communication -- including psychology writing, speaking, English 101/301, advertising, marketing, public relations, and organizational ledership) STARFIRE (Helping dogs and their owners and trainers use positive, behavior-based methods for over 20 years as a not-for-profit service.) P.O. Box 8241 Reston, VA 20195 Email: rapport@comcast.net Website: http://www.starfire-rapport.com From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 21-OCT-2005 10:54:58.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "List Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Head halters Hi all, Since we are talking about safety and welfare of the animals, I hear more and more comments from trainers, vets and other canine specialists that the basic collar-and-leash arrangement is actually more likely to injure the neck and upper spine of dogs than gentle leaders, haltis, etc. Don't ask me why... A search in a veterinary reference database may lead to something useful? It may be one of these things that won't be resolved "scientifically" but is rather based on personal preferences (for dog and owner/trainer), Cheers, S. Gadbois --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University Halifax, NS, Canada Ethology, neuroethology, behavioural endocrinology Dogs, wolves, coyotes, red foxes & Fundulids http://www.gadbois.org/ Office LSC 2519; Lab LSC 4234/4235 --- On 21-Oct-05, at 10:10 AM, Cecilia Lambert wrote: > Why would you need to use them? If I can train coyotes and the > people at Wolf Park can train wolves , to walk on leash, > what would be the need for a more resrictive device. > My coyotes don't have a problem at the vet, for broken bones with > restrictive devices to support the bones, but when Amber's eye got > shot out and Dr. Wolf did the surgery to remove the eye, he wrapped > her head very nice and neat with bandages. When she started coming > out of the anisthetic, she went "nutso" trying to remove those > bandages. She did not like the restriction of her head, at all! > The bandages were removed and she quieted immediatly. > CeAnn > > > CeAnn Lambert > Indiana Coyote Rescue Center > www.coyoterescue.org > > Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 21-OCT-2005 19:43:03.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "List Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Head halters Depends who one talks to. Canine chirpractors report halter damage. I think even in D. Kamen's book there's something on it. And from street observations - I see some really awful handling of dogs with head halters and also that new contraption that I think is sold as an anti-jump leash, you know the one - that weaves around the dog's front legs and around his shoulders. Some I've seen waddle rather than walk those things have to rub under front legs. I walk with Scottish Deerhound, a male at 103#s and his sister, a svelte 85# -- the notion that something would wrap round those legs, those chests -- if the situation for dogs weren't so bad, generally, a person could have a laugh. Unfortunately, this very basic ultimately simple and wonderful activity -- walking with a dog -- is under seige from all angles. What's interesting from this thread, and I'm obliged to Ms. Horwitz for it, is the study that's been done on keeping the dog in the home -- whilst halters were involved, basic puppy work was too -- and isn't that really what makes the halter or the leash or whatever tool one learns with, what it's all about - keeping the the dog in the home? I too speak to training the dog and teaching the person to walk on a loose lead. It's never the equipment. Which I've written to for years, and still it can't be said enough. -margory cohen San Francisco, CA Evaluation of Association Between Retention in the Home and Attendance at Puppy Socialization Classes J Am Vet Med Assoc 223[1]:61-66 Jul 1'03 Epidemiologic Survey 28 Refs * Margaret M. Duxbury, DVM; Julie A. Jackson; Scott W. Line, DVM, PhD, DACVB; Robert K. Anderson, DVM, MPH, DACVPM, DACVB * Center to Study Human Animal Relationships and Environments, University of Minnesota, MN 55455 OBJECTIVE: To evaluate associations between retention of dogs in their adoptive homes and attendance at puppy socialization classes and other factors. DESIGN: Epidemiologic survey. ANIMALS: 248 adult dogs that were adopted as pup-pies from a humane society. ----- Original Message ----- From: Simon Gadbois To: List Applied Ethology Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 9:54 AM Subject: Re: Head halters Hi all, Since we are talking about safety and welfare of the animals, I hear more and more comments from trainers, vets and other canine specialists that the basic collar-and-leash arrangement is actually more likely to injure the neck and upper spine of dogs than gentle leaders, haltis, etc. Don't ask me why... A search in a veterinary reference database may lead to something useful? It may be one of these things that won't be resolved "scientifically" but is rather based on personal preferences (for dog and owner/trainer), Cheers, S. Gadbois --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology / Neuroscience Dalhousie University Halifax, NS, Canada Ethology, neuroethology, behavioural endocrinology Dogs, wolves, coyotes, red foxes & Fundulids http://www.gadbois.org/ Office LSC 2519; Lab LSC 4234/4235 --- On 21-Oct-05, at 10:10 AM, Cecilia Lambert wrote: Why would you need to use them? If I can train coyotes and the people at Wolf Park can train wolves , to walk on leash, what would be the need for a more resrictive device. My coyotes don't have a problem at the vet, for broken bones with restrictive devices to support the bones, but when Amber's eye got shot out and Dr. Wolf did the surgery to remove the eye, he wrapped her head very nice and neat with bandages. When she started coming out of the anisthetic, she went "nutso" trying to remove those bandages. She did not like the restriction of her head, at all! The bandages were removed and she quieted immediatly. CeAnn CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 10/18/2005 From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 22-OCT-2005 06:03:29.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Head halters Simon Gadbois wrote: > Since we are talking about safety and welfare of the animals, I hear > more and more comments from trainers, vets and other canine > specialists that the basic collar-and-leash arrangement is actually > more likely to injure the neck and upper spine of dogs than gentle > leaders, haltis, etc. Don't ask me why... A search in a veterinary > reference database may lead to something useful? It may be one of > these things that won't be resolved "scientifically" but is rather > based on personal preferences (for dog and owner/trainer), I am skeptical about this statement. It does not reflect prevailing opinion among the working-dog people with whom I associate. I am not a dog trainer, nor do I spend much time in that environment, but I do spend a good deal of time in the field with working dogs, primarily hunting dogs, and have a wide acquaintance among people whose dogs do work - and who are very careful and solicitous about the welfare of their animals. Quite apart from ethical considerations, an injured, unhappy or irritated animal does not work well. An improperly fitted and improperly used choke chain can damage a dog's trachea, especially of sighthound breeds whose trachea is not so deeply embedded in muscle as that of more compactly build types of dog. An improperly used Halti (etc.) can cause permanent damage to the ligaments in a dog's neck. The common factor here is "improper." Some of these things are useful as training devices, but out of place when used for control outside of a training situation. There is a leverage issue here. A collar normally rests around the base of a dog's neck, where the muscles are thickest and strongest. The head restraints exert their leverage, unavoidably, at the top of the neck where the muscles are weakest and where, to provide for mobility of the head, the vertebrae are also least firmly attached to one another and to the skull (the joints between atlas and cranium, and between axis and atlas, are among the most mobile in the body). The leverage of a "head collar" (as the halter is called, tellingly, in the U.K.) is essential (at least in traditional horse management - I can hear Andy Beck muttering in the background ) for a human to control that large, powerful and rather dangerous animal which is a horse. Even so we do not just put one on a green horse and expect miracles. On the contrary, we take every care that a horse becomes accustomed to the halter from an early age, and take care later to avoid situations where the animal might throw its full weight or strength against the halter. Horses have broken their necks by doing so. A dog is much smaller and weaker than a horse, and the potential for injury, especially among the longer-necked breeds, is correspondingly greater. Also, I must object to the popular idea, which has turned up repeatedly in this forum, that a "prong collar" is necessarily a punitive device, whose function is to train a dog by application of aversives. Of course it can be used that way ... there is probably no training device which cannot be used in an abusive manner ... but it has other uses too, some of which are preferable to any other form of restraint under those particular conditions. The primary goal should be the welfare of the animal, and not necessarily the promulgation of simple-minded stereotypes. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 22-OCT-2005 06:46:53.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: Head halters Ms. Alexander wrote me and my reply is that that question should be addressed to Dr. Anderson. The range in this forum is broad enough that all of us have different sources, observations and experience and consequently different views are reflected. I offer mine. The chiropractor I spoke was the canine chiropractor working on my dog. I was not citing the college. -margory cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Alexander To: margory cohen Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:46 AM Subject: Re: Head halters ----- Original Message ----- From: margory cohen To: List Applied Ethology Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Head halters Depends who one talks to. Canine chirpractors report halter damage. I think even in D. Kamen's book there's something on it. If this is so...then why when Dr. Anderson contacted the college that teaches chiropractors did they tell him they weren't seeing any injuries? Why would they withhold this information from the person who developed the tool but tell their clients that there are injuries? This doesn't make any sense to me. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 10/18/2005 From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 22-OCT-2005 06:52:21.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Head halters > Dr. John Burchard > Tepe Gawra Salukis there is probably no training device which cannot be used > in an abusive manner ... but it has other uses too, some of which are > preferable to any other form of restraint under those particular conditions. > The primary goal should be the welfare of the animal, and not necessarily > the promulgation of simple-minded stereotypes. > margory cohen: Thank you. In the current environment, where lawmakers are bit by their owns law and dogs! and where proposals to ban perfectly fine training equipment are proposed by agencies from all corners, and meanwhile shelters overflow and dogs are desperate in need of fair treatment, yours cannot be repeated enough. It's not the equipment. Me, I'm always rather suspect of equipment that is touted as cure-alls, that comes with huge reviews and endorsements -- who benefits from all that? Somebody's getting a bit payoff and it is not the dogs. -margory cohen From: IN%"sue@dogsinthepark.ca" "Sue Alexander" 22-OCT-2005 14:40:26.34 To: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Head halters Sorry Margory...I thought I had hit reply all, but evidently it went to you alone. Andit is Mrs. if you don't want to use my first name...Ms. sounds like bees to me. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca ----- Original Message ----- From: margory cohen To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:46 AM Subject: Fw: Head halters Ms. Alexander wrote me and my reply is that that question should be addressed to Dr. Anderson. The range in this forum is broad enough that all of us have different sources, observations and experience and consequently different views are reflected. I offer mine. The chiropractor I spoke was the canine chiropractor working on my dog. I was not citing the college. -margory cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Alexander To: margory cohen Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:46 AM Subject: Re: Head halters ----- Original Message ----- From: margory cohen To: List Applied Ethology Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Head halters Depends who one talks to. Canine chirpractors report halter damage. I think even in D. Kamen's book there's something on it. If this is so...then why when Dr. Anderson contacted the college that teaches chiropractors did they tell him they weren't seeing any injuries? Why would they withhold this information from the person who developed the tool but tell their clients that there are injuries? This doesn't make any sense to me. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 10/18/2005 From: IN%"jgmassey@ucdavis.edu" 22-OCT-2005 16:37:45.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"lagaskins@ucdavis.edu" "'Lori A. Gaskins'" Subj: FW: FW: head halters This forwarded message is from a behavioral medicine resident at the UC Davis School of Veterinary Medicine. Greg Massey Greg Massey, DVM, DABVP (Avian) Wildlife Health Center School of Veterinary Medicine University of California One Shields Avenue Davis, California 95616 530-752-1218 (voice) 530-752-3318 (fax) -----Original Message----- From: Lori A. Gaskins [mailto:lagaskins@ucdavis.edu] Sent: Thursday, October 20, 2005 2:35 PM To: jgmassey@ucdavis.edu Cc: ngourkow@spca.bc.ca Subject: Re: FW: head halters Direct quote from attached article in Applied Animal Behavior Science, 1998. "Results of this study indicated that dogs restrained and controlled by a non-traditional nylon head collar exhibit no significant difference in HR, RR, BP, PD, plasma ACTH and cortisol values from dogs restrained and controlled by a traditional nylon neck collar." From: IN%"Anna.Oakes@va.gov" "Oakes, Anna T." 22-OCT-2005 21:18:17.20 To: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Head halters Hello All, I am new to this forum but have a comment about the head halters...my vet suggested its use as my baby (6 month's) Neo Mastiff has issues in the behavior area. He has been prescribed anti anxiety meds too...thank God when he first experienced the collar in the vet's office he seemed to go berserk, but now it seems it calms him....when he gets spastic around the house which still occurs at times, I apply his collar and it seems to calm him down......I don't believe in corporal punishment and I do everything to make sure he is well taken care of......heck he get sausage gravy on his Euckanuba for breakfast........Anna ________________________________ From: margory cohen [mailto:margory@rcn.com] Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:47 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Fw: Head halters Ms. Alexander wrote me and my reply is that that question should be addressed to Dr. Anderson. The range in this forum is broad enough that all of us have different sources, observations and experience and consequently different views are reflected. I offer mine. The chiropractor I spoke was the canine chiropractor working on my dog. I was not citing the college. -margory cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Alexander To: margory cohen Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:46 AM Subject: Re: Head halters ----- Original Message ----- From: margory cohen To: List Applied Ethology Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Head halters Depends who one talks to. Canine chirpractors report halter damage. I think even in D. Kamen's book there's something on it. If this is so...then why when Dr. Anderson contacted the college that teaches chiropractors did they tell him they weren't seeing any injuries? Why would they withhold this information from the person who developed the tool but tell their clients that there are injuries? This doesn't make any sense to me. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca ________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 10/18/2005 From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 23-OCT-2005 08:10:52.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Head halters I encourage you to find a trainer near you who can help you. International Association of Canine Professionals == www.dogpro.org is a good source. Welcome to the forum. Some of us have written here for years; many of us have extremely different views but that hasn't stopped some of us from exchanging them. -margory cohen San Francisco ----- Original Message ----- From: Oakes, Anna T. To: margory cohen ; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:17 PM Subject: RE: Head halters Hello All, I am new to this forum but have a comment about the head halters.my vet suggested its use as my baby (6 month's) Neo Mastiff has issues in the behavior area. He has been prescribed anti anxiety meds too.thank God when he first experienced the collar in the vet's office he seemed to go berserk, but now it seems it calms him..when he gets spastic around the house which still occurs at times, I apply his collar and it seems to calm him down..I don't believe in corporal punishment and I do everything to make sure he is well taken care of..heck he get sausage gravy on his Euckanuba for breakfast....Anna ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: margory cohen [mailto:margory@rcn.com] Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:47 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Fw: Head halters Ms. Alexander wrote me and my reply is that that question should be addressed to Dr. Anderson. The range in this forum is broad enough that all of us have different sources, observations and experience and consequently different views are reflected. I offer mine. The chiropractor I spoke was the canine chiropractor working on my dog. I was not citing the college. -margory cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Alexander To: margory cohen Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:46 AM Subject: Re: Head halters ----- Original Message ----- From: margory cohen To: List Applied Ethology Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Head halters Depends who one talks to. Canine chirpractors report halter damage. I think even in D. Kamen's book there's something on it. If this is so...then why when Dr. Anderson contacted the college that teaches chiropractors did they tell him they weren't seeing any injuries? Why would they withhold this information from the person who developed the tool but tell their clients that there are injuries? This doesn't make any sense to me. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 10/18/2005 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 10/18/2005 From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 23-OCT-2005 12:42:41.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Head halters Sue Alexander wrote: > DITTO! You can also try the International Association of Animal Behaviour > Consultants. Or get the opinion of a veterinary behaviourist. I have > concerns about meds being necessary for a six month old pup-that is not > something I would consider normal. I would think any time medications are needed, or thought to be needed, for the management of canine behavior, that things are very far from normal. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 23-OCT-2005 16:50:18.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters I also have concerns about a puppy or any dog being medicated for an extended period of time. I recommend contacting Kayce Cover. Her website http://synalia.com has some information on it about the work she's done with calming down animals of many species. She's not yet back from a month long trip to England and the Netherlands giving seminars. She has a seminar coming up in a few weeks in Maryland. Details are on her website. She's saved quite a few animals from euthanasia due to fear and/or aggression. Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: Oakes, Anna T. To: margory cohen ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:17 PM Subject: RE: Head halters Hello All, I am new to this forum but have a comment about the head halters.my vet suggested its use as my baby (6 month's) Neo Mastiff has issues in the behavior area. He has been prescribed anti anxiety meds too.thank God when he first experienced the collar in the vet's office he seemed to go berserk, but now it seems it calms him..when he gets spastic around the house which still occurs at times, I apply his collar and it seems to calm him down..I don't believe in corporal punishment and I do everything to make sure he is well taken care of..heck he get sausage gravy on his Euckanuba for breakfast....Anna ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: margory cohen [mailto:margory@rcn.com] Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:47 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Fw: Head halters Ms. Alexander wrote me and my reply is that that question should be addressed to Dr. Anderson. The range in this forum is broad enough that all of us have different sources, observations and experience and consequently different views are reflected. I offer mine. The chiropractor I spoke was the canine chiropractor working on my dog. I was not citing the college. -margory cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Alexander To: margory cohen Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:46 AM Subject: Re: Head halters ----- Original Message ----- From: margory cohen To: List Applied Ethology Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Head halters Depends who one talks to. Canine chirpractors report halter damage. I think even in D. Kamen's book there's something on it. If this is so...then why when Dr. Anderson contacted the college that teaches chiropractors did they tell him they weren't seeing any injuries? Why would they withhold this information from the person who developed the tool but tell their clients that there are injuries? This doesn't make any sense to me. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 10/18/2005 From: IN%"ngourkow@spca.bc.ca" "Nadine Gourkow" 24-OCT-2005 11:37:39.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: head halter Thanks to all of who took the time to comment about head halter and welfare _____ Nadine Gourkow Animal Welfare Manager BC SPCA Administration Centre 1245 East 7th Avenue Vancouver, BC V5T 1R1 Ph. 604.709.6714 Fax. 604.681 7022 www.spca.bc.ca ngourkow@spca.bc.ca From: IN%"Anna.Oakes@va.gov" "Oakes, Anna T." 25-OCT-2005 20:30:15.69 To: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com" "Christina Le Breton", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters Hello again Thank you for your help...I am doing the best I can as far as my neo-mastiff is concerned. I make a fuss over him all the time after we are separated while I go to work. I tried to let him have his own very large room with his bed and toys and water while I am going but he scratched the finish off the door....he seems to do better having the freedom of being upstairs.....there is nothing he can get hurt with as I have puppy proofed the house ..he has a pet door to the outside and a fenced yard. I don't want to confine him to a box while I am not home and so far he has done well with this. When I say he has behavior problems it is mostly to do with dominance over me. He plays with a 20 lb poodle mix with no problem and they are alone together when I am gone...in the 4 mths he has been with me he has not tried to hurt the little dog and they play well together...he is not vicious and does well around people...he is not mean but he is very domineering with me.. I have spent a great deal in vet bills and don't have the resources right now to put him in obedience school and I do plan to do this ....Anna ps this month of October alone has been about 200 dollars just for vet visits about his behavior and medications. ________________________________ From: Christina Le Breton [mailto:k9ruler@gmail.com] Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 9:47 PM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters Have you tried obedience training? What I like to do is #1 Behavior/Obedience Training and if that doesn't work out (after completing puppy, basic and advanced) THEN medications (only if needed, and only if there is a true 100% problem). Is your dog fixed? Is he kept in a crate? How long are you gone ea time? When you come home do you make a huge fuss over him? If you would like to answer a few questions, I can help you get started on the right path....and then you could find a behaviorist/trainer in your area that deals with positive education (no...not just cookie training...EDUCATION!!) I would also recommend seminars :) They are a great learning tool :) Best Wishes Christina Le Breton On 10/23/05, Clare Lewandowski wrote: I also have concerns about a puppy or any dog being medicated for an extended period of time. I recommend contacting Kayce Cover. Her website http://synalia.com has some information on it about the work she's done with calming down animals of many species. She's not yet back from a month long trip to England and the Netherlands giving seminars. She has a seminar coming up in a few weeks in Maryland. Details are on her website. She's saved quite a few animals from euthanasia due to fear and/or aggression. Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: Oakes, Anna T. To: margory cohen ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:17 PM Subject: RE: Head halters Hello All, I am new to this forum but have a comment about the head halters...my vet suggested its use as my baby (6 month's) Neo Mastiff has issues in the behavior area. He has been prescribed anti anxiety meds too...thank God when he first experienced the collar in the vet's office he seemed to go berserk, but now it seems it calms him....when he gets spastic around the house which still occurs at times, I apply his collar and it seems to calm him down......I don't believe in corporal punishment and I do everything to make sure he is well taken care of......heck he get sausage gravy on his Euckanuba for breakfast........Anna ________________________________ From: margory cohen [mailto: margory@rcn.com] Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:47 AM To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Fw: Head halters Ms. Alexander wrote me and my reply is that that question should be addressed to Dr. Anderson. The range in this forum is broad enough that all of us have different sources, observations and experience and consequently different views are reflected. I offer mine. The chiropractor I spoke was the canine chiropractor working on my dog. I was not citing the college. -margory cohen ----- Original Message ----- From: Sue Alexander To: margory cohen Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:46 AM Subject: Re: Head halters ----- Original Message ----- From: margory cohen To: List Applied Ethology Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 9:42 PM Subject: Re: Head halters Depends who one talks to. Canine chirpractors report halter damage. I think even in D. Kamen's book there's something on it. If this is so...then why when Dr. Anderson contacted the college that teaches chiropractors did they tell him they weren't seeing any injuries? Why would they withhold this information from the person who developed the tool but tell their clients that there are injuries? This doesn't make any sense to me. Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC Dogs in the Park Guelph, Ontario sue@dogsinthepark.ca www.dogsinthepark.ca ________________________________ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: 10/18/2005 From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 25-OCT-2005 20:58:35.50 To: IN%"Anna.Oakes@va.gov" "Oakes, Anna T." CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters Hi Anna, While I was in the Netherlands on my last trip, I worked with a Cana Presario with similar problems - except he was a well established adult. It took about 15 minutes to redefine his idea of being looked at - resulting in his not taking offense at people looking at him during walks. The lady of his house called during the second day of the seminar, asking what we had done to her dog, because he was walking with her and looking at her face for the first time in his life with her. He also retrieved for her, which he had never done. The third day, we did some more work, with him in a car. A few weeks later, he was being followed by a journalist, who learned that he had gotten out of his house, along with a pit bull mix, and went to the butcher's. The butcher brought both dogs home. People who knew this dog found this amazing. We can often solve the problems address by anti anxiety meds, without the meds. Best wishes, Kayce Cover > Hello again Thank you for your help...I am doing the best I can as far > as my neo-mastiff is concerned. I make a fuss over him all the time > after we are separated while I go to work. I tried to let him have his > own very large room with his bed and toys and water while I am going but > he scratched the finish off the door....he seems to do better having > the freedom of being upstairs.....there is nothing he can get hurt with > as I have puppy proofed the house ..he has a pet door to the outside and > a fenced yard. I don't want to confine him to a box while I am not > home and so far he has done well with this. When I say he has behavior > problems it is mostly to do with dominance over me. He plays with a 20 > lb poodle mix with no problem and they are alone together when I am > gone...in the 4 mths he has been with me he has not tried to hurt the > little dog and they play well together...he is not vicious and does well > around people...he is not mean but he is very domineering with me.. I > have spent a great deal in vet bills and don't have the resources right > now to put him in obedience school and I do plan to do this ....Anna > ps this month of October alone has been about 200 dollars just for vet > visits about his behavior and medications. > > > > ________________________________ > > From: Christina Le Breton [mailto:k9ruler@gmail.com] > Sent: Sunday, October 23, 2005 9:47 PM > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters > > > > Have you tried obedience training? What I like to do is #1 > Behavior/Obedience Training and if that doesn't work out (after > completing puppy, basic and advanced) THEN medications (only if needed, > and only if there is a true 100% problem). > > > > Is your dog fixed? Is he kept in a crate? How long are you gone ea > time? When you come home do you make a huge fuss over him? > > > If you would like to answer a few questions, I can help you get started > on the right path....and then you could find a behaviorist/trainer in > your area that deals with positive education (no...not just cookie > training...EDUCATION!!) > > > > I would also recommend seminars :) They are a great learning tool :) > > > > Best Wishes > > > > Christina Le Breton > > > > > On 10/23/05, Clare Lewandowski wrote: > > I also have concerns about a puppy or any dog being medicated for an > extended period of time. > > I recommend contacting Kayce Cover. Her website http://synalia.com > has some information on it about the work she's > done with calming down animals of many species. She's not yet back from > a month long trip to England and the Netherlands giving seminars. She > has a seminar coming up in a few weeks in Maryland. Details are on her > website. She's saved quite a few animals from euthanasia due to fear > and/or aggression. > > Clare > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Oakes, Anna T. > > To: margory cohen ; > applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:17 PM > > Subject: RE: Head halters > > > > > Hello All, I am new to this forum but have a comment about the > head halters...my vet suggested its use as my baby (6 month's) Neo > Mastiff has issues in the behavior area. He has been prescribed anti > anxiety meds too...thank God when he first experienced the collar in the > vet's office he seemed to go berserk, but now it seems it calms > him....when he gets spastic around the house which still occurs at > times, I apply his collar and it seems to calm him down......I don't > believe in corporal punishment and I do everything to make sure he is > well taken care of......heck he get sausage gravy on his Euckanuba for > breakfast........Anna > > > > > ________________________________ > > > From: margory cohen [mailto: margory@rcn.com] > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 8:47 AM > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Fw: Head halters > > > > Ms. Alexander wrote me and my reply is that that question should > be addressed to Dr. Anderson. > > > > The range in this forum is broad enough that all of us have > different sources, observations and experience and consequently > different views are reflected. > > > > I offer mine. The chiropractor I spoke was the canine > chiropractor working on my dog. > > > > I was not citing the college. > > -margory cohen > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: Sue Alexander > > To: margory cohen > > Sent: Saturday, October 22, 2005 3:46 AM > > Subject: Re: Head halters > > > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > > From: margory cohen > > To: List Applied Ethology > > > Sent: Friday, October 21, 2005 9:42 PM > > Subject: Re: Head halters > > > > Depends who one talks to. > > Canine chirpractors report halter damage. I think even > in D. Kamen's book there's something on it. > > > > > > If this is so...then why when Dr. Anderson contacted the > college that teaches chiropractors did they tell him they weren't seeing > any injuries? Why would they withhold this information from the person > who developed the tool but tell their clients that there are injuries? > This doesn't make any sense to me. > > > > Sue Alexander CPDT CDBC > > Dogs in the Park > > Guelph, Ontario > > sue@dogsinthepark.ca > > www.dogsinthepark.ca > > > > > ________________________________ > > > No virus found in this incoming message. > Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. > Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.4/142 - Release Date: > 10/18/2005 > > > > Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 25-OCT-2005 23:14:41.52 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters Hi all, This all sounds too magical and I'm sorry Kayce but I have to admit to cynicism when anyone using ANY method announces an instant cure. An improvement I can accept, a cure??? Anyone else feel this way or am I being too cynical? Cheers Diana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kayce Cover" > Hi Anna, > > While I was in the Netherlands on my last trip, I worked with a Cana > Presario with similar problems - except he was a well established adult. > It took about 15 minutes to redefine his idea of being looked at - > resulting in his not taking offense at people looking at him during walks. > The lady of his house called during the second day of the seminar, asking > what we had done to her dog, because he was walking with her and looking > at her face for the first time in his life with her. He also retrieved > for her, which he had never done. The third day, we did some more work, > with him in a car. A few weeks later, he was being followed by a > journalist, who learned that he had gotten out of his house, along with a > pit bull mix, and went to the butcher's. The butcher brought both dogs > home. People who knew this dog found this amazing. > > We can often solve the problems address by anti anxiety meds, without the > meds. From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 25-OCT-2005 23:33:26.61 To: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters I've seen Kayce's work and the animals' fast improvement. Maintaining it, requires further work on the owners' part. The word 'cure' implies permanent fix. You can fix a flat tire in a short time, but if the driver keeps hitting the same nail, the tire will keep going flat. The most difficult part of working with animals is getting their owners or handlers to change, to learn how to keep the improvement, and keep themselves from causing a relapse. Woodgreen Animal Hospital has some documented cases of dogs slated for death that are now alive because of Kayce's work. NLP--Neuro Linguistic Programming, has some very fast and effective methods for resolving trauma that hold over very long time. The Post Traumatic Stress and Phobia intervention is very effective and long lasting. There are also interventions that can help head off further trauma. I've worked with survivors of physical and sexual abuse, accidents, military veterans and police/firefighters. For a good starting work on this particular method, read 'The Heart of the Mind' by Steve and Connie Andreas. Fast doesn't mean sloppy or inadequate. Your paradigms are limiting your options and can become self fulfilling predictions. Give a human or an animal a better choice and they eagerly take it. Regards Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: "Whitebirds" Cc: Sent: Tuesday, October 25, 2005 10:12 PM Subject: Re: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters > Hi all, > > This all sounds too magical and I'm sorry Kayce but I have to admit to > cynicism when anyone using ANY method announces an instant cure. > > An improvement I can accept, a cure??? > > Anyone else feel this way or am I being too cynical? > > Cheers > Diana > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kayce Cover" > > >> Hi Anna, >> >> While I was in the Netherlands on my last trip, I worked with a Cana >> Presario with similar problems - except he was a well established adult. >> It took about 15 minutes to redefine his idea of being looked at - >> resulting in his not taking offense at people looking at him during >> walks. >> The lady of his house called during the second day of the seminar, >> asking >> what we had done to her dog, because he was walking with her and looking >> at her face for the first time in his life with her. He also retrieved >> for her, which he had never done. The third day, we did some more work, >> with him in a car. A few weeks later, he was being followed by a >> journalist, who learned that he had gotten out of his house, along with a >> pit bull mix, and went to the butcher's. The butcher brought both dogs >> home. People who knew this dog found this amazing. >> >> We can often solve the problems address by anti anxiety meds, without the >> meds. > > > From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 25-OCT-2005 23:52:36.06 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: nlp phobia cure basics of nlp phobia method, can be tailored to individual modalities, circumstances etc. http://www.nlpweekly.com/?p=327 a basic concept in NLP is that change not only can happen it fast, when it does occur it is usually fast, building up to the tipping point may take some time but the change is often rapid. basic formula for change, current state minus interference plus resources leads to desired state. http://www.nlpskills.com/PowerBelief.htm from this site, Present State + Resources = Desired State/Behavior The process is to: 1.. Identify PRESENT STATE (what you don't want) 2.. Identify the DESIRED STATE. 3.. ELIMINATE INTERFERENCE 4.. APPLY RESOURCES necessary to get from PRESENT to DESIRED state. What is Interference? a.. Some part of person does NOT want change b.. Person does not know HOW TO change c.. Person has no CHANCE TO change TO CHANGE YOU HAVE TO: a.. Know how to do it b.. BE congruent about your outcome c.. Believe it is possible to change d.. Make a decision e.. Take immediate and decisive action Kayce's work shows animals how to change, helps remove interference from prior experience or build new coping skills for new experiences, and helps animals make good decisions. Very good NLP work even though Kayce is not NLP trained. But then NLP evolved from studying highly effective people and the details of what made them more effective than others. Clare From: IN%"probards@ozemail.com.au" "Pat Robards" 26-OCT-2005 00:40:43.85 To: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters From: "Whitebirds" Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 3:12 PM Hi all, This all sounds too magical and I'm sorry Kayce but I have to admit to cynicism when anyone using ANY method announces an instant cure. An improvement I can accept, a cure??? Anyone else feel this way or am I being too cynical? Cheers Diana Hi Diana, Not cynical, honest. Pat R http://www.k9events.com/ From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 26-OCT-2005 01:08:45.89 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters Hi Clare, Thanks for the clarification. I'm interested in NLP and will read the book you suggest. In many circumstances I have seen excellent trainers appear to make a lot of progress fast with difficult animals. They understand the animal and the animal is able to understand what they are doing. The animal's less than knowledgeable and skilled owner simply does not have the same ability because of that lack of knowledge/ skill. Often there is also a 'relationship' problem which requires the owner make some fairly huge behavioural shifts of their own. I am happy to believe that Kayce is a brilliant trainer who can help people help their animals, if they continue to learn and develop their own skills and alter their own behaviour. This can be said of many other brilliant trainers too. I know many of these others use desensitising and counter conditioning but have yet to read of one who would claim instant lasting results. This always seems to be a rather long, slow process with sudden progress followed by plateaux and at times regression. If NLP methods are so much quicker, why do you think they aren't used more widely? Thanks again Clare. Cheers Diana ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clare Lewandowski" To: "Whitebirds" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 6:33 PM Subject: Re: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters > I've seen Kayce's work and the animals' fast improvement. Maintaining it, > requires further work on the owners' part. The word 'cure' implies permanent > fix. You can fix a flat tire in a short time, but if the driver keeps > hitting the same nail, the tire will keep going flat. The most difficult > part of working with animals is getting their owners or handlers to change, > to learn how to keep the improvement, and keep themselves from causing a > relapse. Woodgreen Animal Hospital has some documented cases of dogs slated > for death that are now alive because of Kayce's work. > NLP--Neuro Linguistic Programming, has some very fast and effective methods > for resolving trauma that hold over very long time. The Post Traumatic > Stress and Phobia intervention is very effective and long lasting. There are > also interventions that can help head off further trauma. I've worked with > survivors of physical and sexual abuse, accidents, military veterans and > police/firefighters. For a good starting work on this particular method, > read 'The Heart of the Mind' by Steve and Connie Andreas. Fast doesn't mean > sloppy or inadequate. Your paradigms are limiting your options and can > become self fulfilling predictions. > Give a human or an animal a better choice and they eagerly take it. From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 26-OCT-2005 05:12:42.54 To: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds e" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: the possibility of long lasting improvements from short interventions Hi Diana, The data continues to accrue from Wood Green and from other sources. The Cana Presario I cited was followed by an independent journalist, who wrote about his case in the top dog magazine in NL. Some of these animals have been followed for 18 months now. While I will agree that nothing in life is permanent, including our living state and current state of being, and while I do not maintain that every single case maintains forever, the data is showing that the preponderance of cases maintain with the owners do NO further work, and knowing only the rudiments of how to use the signals. The Wood Green animals are being trained by Wood Green staff, not by me, so there is no "guru" effect here - unless they have a number of gurus already on staff. We have increasing numbers of vets and vet behaviorists learning this technique to apply with animals of clients, and some of the results are dramatic indeed. Some are becoming certified in the technique, having seen and followed the results, notably Niwako Ogato, DVM (and completing her PhD) who is the first vet behaviorist in Japan, and also the first person certified in this technique in Japan. In one recent case, an owner contacted 6 behaviorists for help with getting fluids injected into a 17 year old feral cat. The vet had nothing to offer, as the cat would not allow two hands on her, and was indifferent to food. Euthanasia was suggested in every case. In two sessions, the cat is now getting regular fluids, wearing a halter, taking walks outside and being held in her owners arms for the first time in her life. At the advanced age of 17, these changes are not likely to be permanent, but we will be happy if they maintain for another 3-5 years. I just spent 4 days with a group of trainers and the horses and staff of the NCPG (National Center for Handicapped Equestrians) in the Netherlands, and am getting daily reports of sustained, dramatic improvements in everything from horses coming voluntarily in from the field to be haltered, to fears resolving, to attitude and aggression improvement. In fact one case of impermanent improvement occurred there. In May I saw a horse there who was very good in her work, but would suddenly attempt to bite people - but not often. I spent a total of three sessions with her, and she did not bite at all for almost 4 months, despite the fact that there was absolutely NO alteration of regular practices, even to include naming or bridging. Her relapse occurred one month after losing a rider to a fall (often stressful to a responsible horse). The rider has no lower legs and simply slipped off when the horse misstepped, but fell and fractured her spine, so could not ride for quite awhile. This deprived the horse of her rider, whom she really liked, her job, and the attention and applause she had been getting because of her outstanding work. Nonetheless, she still maintained for another month. When I returned, I was asked to work with her again. She improved steadily over two sessions. The third day, an instructor disregarded policy and intruded on the horse's stall space to do work, which the horse is known to dislike, and they had a very stressful and difficult encounter. Subsequently the horse was exceedingly upset and unable to work when that person was in view. We turned the horse away from that person, and she resumed her work. The next day we were able to support the vet in getting a blood sample from the horse's jugular vein, and she was exemplary. She was found to be low thyroid and is now starting supplementation, and they are reporting that she seems to be already improving. So, here is a horse with a biological basis and a preexisting history of agression, who corrected with an investment of 3 sessions, for almost four months, and her relapse was subsequent to a traumatic accident and a great loss. I think even this "failure" is pretty amazing. Cynicism is not a bad thing, as long as one also maintains an open mind and makes an active attempt to resolve their doubts. I know that you did not see this technique from me, during the time I was in New Zealand, so that your cynicism comes from a general disposition towards it, and not from any particular knowledge you have of this technique. Best wishes, Kayce > Hi all, > > This all sounds too magical and I'm sorry Kayce but I have to admit to > cynicism when anyone using ANY method announces an instant cure. > > An improvement I can accept, a cure??? > > Anyone else feel this way or am I being too cynical? > > Cheers > Diana > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kayce Cover" > > >> Hi Anna, >> >> While I was in the Netherlands on my last trip, I worked with a Cana >> Presario with similar problems - except he was a well established adult. >> It took about 15 minutes to redefine his idea of being looked at - >> resulting in his not taking offense at people looking at him during >> walks. >> The lady of his house called during the second day of the seminar, >> asking >> what we had done to her dog, because he was walking with her and looking >> at her face for the first time in his life with her. He also retrieved >> for her, which he had never done. The third day, we did some more work, >> with him in a car. A few weeks later, he was being followed by a >> journalist, who learned that he had gotten out of his house, along with >> a >> pit bull mix, and went to the butcher's. The butcher brought both dogs >> home. People who knew this dog found this amazing. >> >> We can often solve the problems address by anti anxiety meds, without >> the >> meds. > > Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 26-OCT-2005 07:35:43.04 To: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: was now nlp: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters why isn't NLP more often used? in some cases there is too much vested interest in the standard ways. For example, a doctor specializing in allergy treatment won't get paid as much if patients do not need allergy testing and treatment if one or two office visits clears it up forever. A friend living in Texas came to visit. She'd developed a phobia of scorpions after one dropped on her head from a light fixture. Even in a new tightly built home, scorpions and large cockroaches were a common occurrence. She froze up and had trouble dealing with them. A neighbor was a psychologist who flat out told her she couldn't afford him as her deep seated phobia would take months to correct. One session here took about 20 minutes including several rounds of future pacing, imagining how to respond when she saw the next one. About 3 days after returning home, she walked into the kitchen to find a 6" scorpion in the sink. It gave her a rush of adrenaline but the work kicked in, she backed out, looked up--important is it drew her out of her kinesthetic feelings and into visuals where she could visualize her plans. We had future paced having her grab a towel, tossing it over the scorpion and killing it with a potato masher. She got the towel, and did so. And took the dead scorpion to her neighbor who was dumbfounded. He told her he didn't think it would last but for the next year she lived there, responded well. Each time a short rush of adrenaline, then she coped. With some phobias there is other 'stuff' associated with it. As with one man whose phobia of snakes developed when his father insisted he pick up a dead snake. The phobia process worked on the basic phobia but a trust issue with his father also needed work. Reimprinting was the next process used. This session was done in public at an NLP training class. Total elapsed time for both pieces of work was about an hour, with one half hour session a day or two later another bit of 'stuff' rose into his awareness. I don't actually think most therapists intentionally draw out treatment in order to keep money coming in. I think more it is that they are locked into their paradigms. NLP could be described as how to do anything better. and you don't have to be bad to get better. It is reaching into the health field in many ways, one process is similar to the visualizations used for cancer patients with pac man games eating the cancer cells. Into business, education, sports and more. In education, detecting if the student is a visual, auditory or kinesthetic learner can help teachers explain in a way the student can process. There is a book on using NLP with horses, can't think of the title at the moment. Not specifically about training horses but about resolving rider/horse problems and improving horse/rider understanding. Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: "Whitebirds" Cc: Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 12:06 AM Subject: Re: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters > Hi Clare, > > Thanks for the clarification. I'm interested in NLP and will read the book > you suggest. > > In many circumstances I have seen excellent trainers appear to make a lot > of > progress fast with difficult animals. They understand the animal and the > animal is able to understand what they are doing. > > The animal's less than knowledgeable and skilled owner simply does not > have > the same ability because of that lack of knowledge/ skill. Often there is > also a 'relationship' problem which requires the owner make some fairly > huge > behavioural shifts of their own. > > I am happy to believe that Kayce is a brilliant trainer who can help > people > help their animals, if they continue to learn and develop their own skills > and alter their own behaviour. This can be said of many other brilliant > trainers too. I know many of these others use desensitising and counter > conditioning but have yet to read of one who would claim instant lasting > results. This always seems to be a rather long, slow process with sudden > progress followed by plateaux and at times regression. If NLP methods are > so > much quicker, why do you think they aren't used more widely? > > Thanks again Clare. > > Cheers > Diana > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Clare Lewandowski" > To: "Whitebirds" > Cc: > Sent: Wednesday, October 26, 2005 6:33 PM > Subject: Re: medicated puppy was Re: Head halters > > >> I've seen Kayce's work and the animals' fast improvement. Maintaining it, >> requires further work on the owners' part. The word 'cure' implies > permanent >> fix. You can fix a flat tire in a short time, but if the driver keeps >> hitting the same nail, the tire will keep going flat. The most difficult >> part of working with animals is getting their owners or handlers to > change, >> to learn how to keep the improvement, and keep themselves from causing a >> relapse. Woodgreen Animal Hospital has some documented cases of dogs > slated >> for death that are now alive because of Kayce's work. >> NLP--Neuro Linguistic Programming, has some very fast and effective > methods >> for resolving trauma that hold over very long time. The Post Traumatic >> Stress and Phobia intervention is very effective and long lasting. There > are >> also interventions that can help head off further trauma. I've worked >> with >> survivors of physical and sexual abuse, accidents, military veterans and >> police/firefighters. For a good starting work on this particular method, >> read 'The Heart of the Mind' by Steve and Connie Andreas. Fast doesn't > mean >> sloppy or inadequate. Your paradigms are limiting your options and can >> become self fulfilling predictions. >> Give a human or an animal a better choice and they eagerly take it. > > > From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 26-OCT-2005 12:05:00.57 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: the possibility of long lasting improvements from short interventions ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kayce Cover" > The data continues to accrue from Wood Green and from other sources. The > Cana Presario I cited was followed by an independent journalist, who wrote > about his case in the top dog magazine in NL. Some of these animals have > been followed for 18 months now. While I will agree that nothing in life > is permanent, including our living state and current state of being, and > while I do not maintain that every single case maintains forever, the data > is showing that the preponderance of cases maintain with the owners do NO > further work, and knowing only the rudiments of how to use the signals. > The Wood Green animals are being trained by Wood Green staff, not by me, > so there is no "guru" effect here - unless they have a number of gurus > already on staff. Hi Kayce, I would love to see this data. I imagine the Wood Green staff have some experience and training and are attempting to follow your methods and principles? Having instructed and watched others instruct, it's clear to me that even when learners TRY to follow instructions, it's clear they haven't heard or understood all the information or don't yet have the physical skills and they make many mistakes. I guess this is why you have two or three day seminars - to try and teach people thoroughly? > We have increasing numbers of vets and vet behaviorists learning this > technique to apply with animals of clients, and some of the results are > dramatic indeed. Some are becoming certified in the technique, having seen > and followed the results, notably Niwako Ogato, DVM (and completing her > PhD) who is the first vet behaviorist in Japan, and also the first person > certified in this technique in Japan. I know many vets who admit to knowing almost nothing about behaviour. If they are learning more that has to be a good thing! > In one recent case, an owner contacted 6 behaviorists for help with > getting fluids injected into a 17 year old feral cat. The vet had nothing > to offer, as the cat would not allow two hands on her, and was indifferent > to food. Euthanasia was suggested in every case. In two sessions, the > cat is now getting regular fluids, wearing a halter, taking walks outside > and being held in her owners arms for the first time in her life. At the > advanced age of 17, these changes are not likely to be permanent, but we > will be happy if they maintain for another 3-5 years. Brilliant! These two sessions involved what? > I just spent 4 days with a group of trainers and the horses and staff of > the NCPG (National Center for Handicapped Equestrians) in the Netherlands, > and am getting daily reports of sustained, dramatic improvements in > everything from horses coming voluntarily in from the field to be > haltered, to fears resolving, to attitude and aggression improvement. Again, I'm assuming these animals are being handled by people you have taught to use the method? > In fact one case of impermanent improvement occurred there. In May I saw > a horse there who was very good in her work, but would suddenly attempt to > bite people - but not often. I spent a total of three sessions with her, > and she did not bite at all for almost 4 months, despite the fact that > there was absolutely NO alteration of regular practices, even to include > naming or bridging. If she tried to bite people but not often, how often did she bite? Would she normally not bite for 4 months? > So, here is a horse with a biological basis and a preexisting history of > agression, who corrected with an investment of 3 sessions, for almost four > months, and her relapse was subsequent to a traumatic accident and a great > loss. I think even this "failure" is pretty amazing. Again, if the horse doesn't bite that often it is hard to gauge how successful or not this is. > Cynicism is not a bad thing, as long as one also maintains an open mind > and makes an active attempt to resolve their doubts. I know that you did > not see this technique from me, during the time I was in New Zealand, so > that your cynicism comes from a general disposition towards it, and not > from any particular knowledge you have of this technique. I am making an active attempt to resolve my doubts now. You are telling me about permanent improvement, Clare tells me the importance of owner compliance, which is what I would expect. I wasn't able to observe your sessions in NZ but I made sure to ask people who did attend about them. I had no reports like the ones you provide. I was told there were videos and that you are clearly a brilliant animal trainer. The people I spoke to didn't have any major revelations with their own animals although I was told about one dog that appeared to learn a lot quickly. I don't know if it went on to remember what it learned but I expect if the owner had learned the method well, the training would have continued. No one mentioned behavioural changes but perhaps people who attended didn't have animals with major issues or just weren't aware of major improvements that took place. I have no doubts about your training abilities. My concern is simply that when you tell us about your work you make it all sound so easy and so quick and it sounds permanent. Experience tells me otherwise. Every other excellent animal trainer I've met or spoken to via email, would agree with what Clare wrote about the importance of continued correct training/ handling procedures. However since you maintain that effects can be permanent regardless of handling/ training I'll need to read your site again and investigate more thoroughly. Clare, the difference that I see between animals and people would be the level of motivation and self control. We cannot say that a horse 'wants' to overcome their phobia or 'believes' they can do it. 'Choosing' to do it when all the circumstances surrounding it stay the same as before, seem even more unlikely. Recent discussions with a skilled animal trainer with a fear aggressive dog showed that the dog had made huge progress but it had taken years in skilled hands and the owner did not consider the dog to be completely 'cured' or that a 'cure' was possible. He would never be a 'normal' dog because his background was so 'abnormal'. It worries me that people may see improvements in their animals and then take 'risks' because they believe them to be 'cured'. I've seen people do this and it aint pretty. Kayce writes as if this is unlikely to happen and it does seem too magical given what every other trainer I've spoken to says. I've read the site but perhaps I've missed something. I'll reread and try and find a stressed out animal to work on. I'm sure the SPCA will have some :). Cheers Diana From: IN%"joseph.stookey@usask.ca" "Joseph Stookey" 28-OCT-2005 09:39:56.83 To: IN%"thomassebastian10@yahoo.com" "thomas sebastian" CC: IN%"mjs581@mail.usask.ca" "monica", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology email", IN%"jon.watts@usask.ca" "jon.watts@usask.ca" Subj: RE: weaning in humans! Hi Thomas, I think the idea that we could manipulate odor or availability of the udder or milk from the dam's perspective (as opposed to manipulating the calf) may work. Derek and I often discussed various methods of reaching the same goal of preventing or stopping nursing. From a practical side and considering our beef cattle are seldom handled, it is probably easier and safer to attach something to the calf's nose, then it is to handle the udder of a beef cow. It would be somewhat dangerous to manipulate the udder of our beef cattle and I suspect nearly all of them would kick if you tried to touch them in that region. Maybe in your country where so many of the cows are handled by their owners, it might make sense to manipulate the udder via odor, coverings, etc. I have thought that if we ever tried the two-stage weaning in swine it would make more sense to cover the udder of the sow instead of trying to add an anti-sucking device to each piglet. So maybe your ideas should be tried on sows to see if we could initiate weaning. Joe -- Joseph M. Stookey Professor of Applied Ethology Department of Large Animal Clinical Sciences Western College of Veterinary Medicine 52 Campus Dr University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, SK Canada S7N 5B4 From: IN%"SeanSeanl@aol.com" 28-OCT-2005 19:02:35.23 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (no subject) I have a 2 1/2 year old male boxer who barks constantly at the same times of the day. I feel it is seperation anxiety however I'm unsure. When we leave him outside (large yard with screened lani) during the day or at night while we are home he barks and jumps on the sliding glass doors. We've tried closing and leaving the blinds open but he continues to bark and jump. At night he sleeps in the living room (on a nice comfortable bed) but he still barks, jumps and scratches at our closed bedroom door. The odd part is during the evening or night he can be inside and my husband can be in our bedroom with the door closed while I am in the computer room with the door closed and he doesn't bark or scratch at the doors. Two months ago we had an older boxer (his big bro) pass away. I know this has had serious effect him, however his barking and jumping at doors has always been an issue! Recently, we have added a new addition to our family (female german shepard). However, he still exhibits the same behaviors and we're concerned he will pass these behaviors onto the new puppy. From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 28-OCT-2005 19:42:17.20 To: IN%"SeanSeanl@aol.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Barking problem was (no subject) He very well may pass these behaviors on to the new puppy. Please check the archives for suggestions; there have been many extensive debates on this subject. I am not an expert on animal behavior and I am very concerned about animal happiness and welfare but I have to say that I have been favorable impressed by the results of shock collars. In a few barks the dogs I have seen learn that is not what they want to do, then the dog learns to calm itself down and becomes happy, quiet and friendly. Excessive barking, to me, seems to be part of a behavioral cycle in which a dog works himself into a tantrum that he does not know how to calm down from. Break the cycle and more healthy behaviors can take over. The dogs I have seen stopped barking immediately and did not need the collars turned on after a few days. I should say that I was vehemently opposed to shock colors until I saw them work. I should say that citronella collars have been suggested as a humane alternative to shock collars. I think this is probably a bad idea. We are anthropomorphizing what constitutes humane treatment. Citrus oil is highly toxic to most non-primates and probably smells extremely bad to them (think how a rotting corpse smells to us). It lingers much longer than a shock does, could cause gagging and choking, and does not give the same easily understandable immediate short feedback that a shock does. Further a dogs sense of smell is 250 million times better than a humans. Yes, a citronella collar would be nicer to a human than a shock collar. In fact I would find it pleasing. To a dog I suspect citronella is somewhere between horrific and traumatic but the fact is we don't know. The other thing that you can do for the dog is to provide it with things to do. I think boredom accentuates loneliness, A playmate as you have done is a very good idea, but the dog is never going to appreciate these distractions unless it gets out of its behavioral rut. Michael Michalchik From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 28-OCT-2005 20:26:04.10 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Animals and favors Recently and article came out in nature and was popularly reported. I felt =20 it was necessary to reply to it. Here is the popular account and my reply. =20 =20 Chimps won=E2=80=99t do a neighbor a favor=20 Oct. 26, 2005 Special to World Science Long ago were the days, it seems, when we humans could consider ourselves=20 truly unique.=20 With chimps and other animals having been found to exhibit a range of=20 human-like traits=E2=80=94including tool use, culture and some elements of=20= language=E2=80=94it=E2=80=99s=20 gotten harder and harder for scientists and philosophers to say just what s= ets=20 us apart. They just don't care that much, a new study suggests. (Image courtesy=20 National Institutes of Health) =20 ____________________________________ Finally, there may be some news to make us feel special again. Researchers say they may have found one key trait that clearly separates=20 humans from chimps, and possibly from other species: we=E2=80=99re the only= ones that do=20 favors without expecting something in return. Chimps don=E2=80=99t show this sort of consideration, the researchers found= . To be sure, they have been found to exhibit signs of empathy. Chimps help=20 family members, for example, and sometimes console victims of aggression. B= ut=20 outside of these special situations, according to the scientists, chimps wi= ll=20 let neighbors cast for themselves.=20 Joan Silk of the University of California, Los Angeles and colleagues=20 conducted a study that they said confirmed this, showing chimps are uninter= ested in=20 doing a friend a good turn, even at no cost to themselves. The researchers presented captive chimps with a device that gave them a=20 choice between two options. The chimp could choose to serve only itself wit= h=20 food, or it could select an option that gave it the same food, but also res= ulted=20 in food being delivered to another chimpanzee.=20 The chimpanzees were no more likely to choose the second option, even thoug= h=20 they could see that it would help a friend at no inconvenience to=20 themselves, the researchers said. Many human habits=E2=80=94such as donating blood, giving to charity and pun= ishing=20 social offenders=E2=80=94show consideration for others, even strangers. The=20= chimpanzees=E2=80=99 lack of such regard was made more surprising by the fact that the =20 chimpanzees used in the study had been living together in stable social grou= ps for=20 many years, the researchers said. The scientists added that they conducted the test with two separate chimp=20 populations, and got the same results. =E2=80=9CChimpanzees cooperate mainly with kin and reciprocating partners,= =E2=80=9D they=20 wrote in a paper to appear in the Oct. 27 issue of the research journal Nat= ure.=20 Chimps have also been found to have a sense of =E2=80=9Cfairness,=E2=80=9D=20= in that they=20 respond negatively to unfair interactions. But they do so only when they=20 themselves get the raw deal, not someone else. They =E2=80=9Cshow no aversi= on to inequitable=20 exchanges that benefit themselves,=E2=80=9D Silk and colleagues wrote. =E2=80=9CThe absence of other-regarding preferences in chimpanzees,=E2=80= =9D they added, =E2=80=9C may indicate that such preferences are a derived property of the human spec= ies =E2=80=9D=E2=80=94that is, a trait we developed independently of our evolut= ionary ancestors. This trait may be =E2=80=9Ctied to sophisticated capacities for cultural le= arning,=20 theory of mind [the ability to infer someone else=E2=80=99s thoughts], pers= pective=20 taking and moral judgement,=E2=80=9D the authors added. Nonetheless, it=E2=80=99s possible that some other animals will turn out to= do=20 favors after all, the researchers said. =E2=80=9COther-regarding preferences might be found in other species that r= ely more=20 heavily on cooperative strategies than chimpanzees do, such as cooperativel= y=20 breeding mammals. Further work on other species will help to clarify the=20 socioecological conditions and cognitive requirements associated with the=20 evolution of other-regarding preferences.=E2=80=9D =20 For many years people have claimed that animals don't do many things, such =20 as use tools, have a number sense, make tools, make wars, kill for sport, ki= ll =20 their own species, play in adulthood, manage their environments, have =20 self-awareness, use words or symbols, etc... All of these assertions have= been=20 proven false albeit in limited ways among a limited groups of animals after= a=20 lot of hard research. The reasons why we keep making mistakes like this is=20 much more due to our limitations than the animals limitations. =20 Humans have been under intense evolutionary pressures to be keenly sensitiv= e=20 to human behaviors, human standards and human ways of communicating. By=20 comparison we watch and understand animals poorly. Kindness without expecta= tion=20 of reward is a difficult concept to define even in humans and it seems to b= e a=20 rare phenomena in humans too. Most of the behaviors we choose to call=20 altruistic do have hidden payoffs.=20 =20 Donations to charity are often done, in amounts the represent trivial costs=20= =20 on the parts of donors and are done by relatively small (perhaps aberrantly=20= =20 small parts of the population). Most big donations are done in conjunction w= ith=20 self-promotion, to further socio-political agendas, and in the context of=20 groups such as churches or political parties where reputations for generosi= ty=20 and monetary clout is more valuable than money itself.=20 =20 The favors we do, on a day to day basis, are generally quite small and are =20 also analogous to the peer-group reciprocity systems that other animals have= =20 worked out such as blood sharing in vampire bats. Humans often do favors =20 without a declared schedule of repayment, but even in tight related groups s= uch as=20 families, fights break out if favors are consistently one sided.=20 =20 Humans also do display apparent altruism in their willingness to care for =20 other needy creatures apparently unrelated to them, but this is not the =20 preferred course of human activity. The vast majority of adoptions occur onl= y after=20 biological reproduction is precluded and I believe is a side-effect of an =20 instinctive drive to care for the young, cute and helpless, that predates an= d =20 overrides human intellectual capacities. Animals also clearly display the =20 behavior of adopting young that are not their own. =20 There is no doubt that humans engage in more sophisticated games of =20 reciprocity than do animals and take a broader view than animals can, but sa= ying that=20 our species displays a characteristic altruism that is qualitatively =20 different than animals, reflects a poor and superficial examination of both=20= human=20 and animals behavior. =20 In sum: =20 True altruism, like any sophisticated behavior is a hard thing to detect in=20= =20 animals and I expect will eventually be scientifically described in animals=20= =20 given enough time and clever enough methodology, like so many other "uniquel= y =20 human" behaviors have been. =20 Human behavior is rarely purely altruistic and such rare occurrence either =20 involve very low cost efforts on the part of the donor or can be attributed=20= to =20 the pathological extreme of normal variations in behavior. =20 Many cases of true altruism in both humans and animals can be seen as the =20 side effects of extremely powerful instincts such as care of the young, and=20= =20 certainly aren't uniquely human. =20 Our persistent need to find some quality that is positive and uniquely huma= n=20 is not a scientific quest but one of ego and a vestige of primitive =20 religious thinking that disparately continues to seek to find a way to put m= an in the=20 center of the universe. Our quest to understand ourselves and our =20 relationship with the creatures we share this world with is a noble and valu= able =20 pursuit so long as we don't keep trying to force our conclusions into obsole= te =20 framework. =20 Sincerely, =20 Michael Michalchik From: IN%"tuuli.kontio@pp.inet.fi" "Tuuli-Susanna Kontio" 28-OCT-2005 22:38:21.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Hi all, I very rarely reply to this list but this time I felt a need to open my = mouth. First of all is the problem itself. Boxer is a very active breed. I = would like to ask how is this dog being exercised? Daily? How many = hours? What do you do with him? Do you play with him? Does he see other = dogs? To me it sounds like this dog has been living a very boring life = and is thus exhibiting boredom through excessive barking and moving. = I.e. he has nowhere else to put this energy he has. I would slowly start = getting him more excercise and active playtime, socializing him with = other people and dogs. He needs to get tired, so for a boxer that may = require something like two to four hours of running every day. I would = also suggest daily obedience training. People should remember that = getting a dog brings responsibility. You are responsible for his = wellbeing. Getting another dog may help so the boxer gets a play mate = but please remember, that it is not enough for a large and very active = breed. And a GSD is also a large, very active breed. THe puppy will grow = into a similar problem dog she is not physically & mentally activated = enough! Then there is Michael's reply. I am very much against causing any pain = to an animal, especially when the origin of this problem is not in the = dog himself. It is ALWAYS people who cause dogs (or any animals) to have = behavioural problems, not the dog himself. Dogs are dogs, not human. = Keeping in mind that in this case the dog may actually have been = rewarded for his behaviour (he barks > the door gets opened, he barks > = people come and see him, he barks > people give him food to be quiet etc = etc etc). So he is only doing what he thinks is "right". Shok collar is = only a way to confuse the dog. He wont know why he is is given a = punishment for a behaviour he has been doing for a very long time. Shock = collars are banned in Finland and I think they should be in a lot of = other countries too. If you dont know how to use one (i.e. if yo are not = a professional) dont use it. I however agree with Michael that citronella is even worse. You may want = to try and get a professional animal behaviourist to help you learn how = to combat this problem, i.e. how to stop the barking & jumping. My first = aid help is only to offer the dog LOTS more things to do. If he has = other activities he wont have time to bark and jums, does he? Also get = him tired but if he is not used to running, start it slowly. But remind = yourself it is never the dogs fault. All the best, Tuuli ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Michalchik@aol.com=20 To: SeanSeanl@aol.com ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca=20 Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 4:41 AM Subject: Barking problem was (no subject) He very well may pass these behaviors on to the new puppy. Please = check the archives for suggestions; there have been many extensive = debates on this subject. I am not an expert on animal behavior and I am = very concerned about animal happiness and welfare but I have to say that = I have been favorable impressed by the results of shock collars. In a = few barks the dogs I have seen learn that is not what they want to do, = then the dog learns to calm itself down and becomes happy, quiet and = friendly. Excessive barking, to me, seems to be part of a behavioral = cycle in which a dog works himself into a tantrum that he does not know = how to calm down from. Break the cycle and more healthy behaviors can = take over. The dogs I have seen stopped barking immediately and did not = need the collars turned on after a few days. I should say that I was = vehemently opposed to shock colors until I saw them work. I should say that citronella collars have been suggested as a humane = alternative to shock collars. I think this is probably a bad idea. We = are anthropomorphizing what constitutes humane treatment. Citrus oil is = highly toxic to most non-primates and probably smells extremely bad to = them (think how a rotting corpse smells to us). It lingers much longer = than a shock does, could cause gagging and choking, and does not give = the same easily understandable immediate short feedback that a shock = does. Further a dogs sense of smell is 250 million times better than a = humans. Yes, a citronella collar would be nicer to a human than a shock = collar. In fact I would find it pleasing. To a dog I suspect citronella = is somewhere between horrific and traumatic but the fact is we don't = know.=20 The other thing that you can do for the dog is to provide it with = things to do. I think boredom accentuates loneliness, A playmate as you = have done is a very good idea, but the dog is never going to appreciate = these distractions unless it gets out of its behavioral rut. Michael Michalchik= From: IN%"dldurham@u.washington.edu" 28-OCT-2005 22:46:26.53 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Animals and favors I couldn't resist extending your response here... Why wouldn't chimps give food if it posed no inconvenience? The most obvious answer to me is that the lab environment affects behavior.= Captivity causes suffering and abnormal behavior in primates, including c= himpanzees. In fact, the trauma of living in the lab could destroy or mask= the altruism or "other-regarding behavior" that the authors of the Nature= study intended to measure. Would we expect children growing up in some un= derfunded institution or inmates on the same cell block to behave altruisti= cally? And would we readily generalize the behavior of said prisoners to t= he general population? If there was some way to do this experiment in the wild (without causing an= y harm to chimps), or if we imagined a universe where there was informed co= nsent, I'd still be skeptical. This experiment used pairs from existing social groups (of entirely unnatur= al composition), but living together doesn't guarantee that animals are fri= ends...nor that they are enemies. As readers, all we know for sure is that= they aren't strangers. Interactions between familiar individuals don't oc= cur in a vacuum, i.e. they aren't free of social context or relationship hi= story. A reasonable alternative explanation for the rate of food giving is that ch= imps did not perceive the act as cost free. Because there was no cost appa= rent to human observers doesn=E2=80=99t mean that the chimps didn't perceiv= e immediate costs or anticipate costs removed in time and space. That said, the animals shared food with a partner 50-60% of the time. In o= ne case, a chimp would only pull the bar to feed himself 69% of the time. = (says something about cost-benefit?) Why is giving half the time or more t= han half the time "indifference"? The authors suggested that half-time sha= ring was indifference because animals would also release food into an empty= cage about 50% of the time. If giving was contingent on reciprocation, w= hy leave food for an unknown recipient - ever? Couldn't leaving food for w= ho ever might eventually end up in the cage be benevolent? (a sign of bore= dom? extinction deficit?) I remain unconvinced. Somehow press coverage of this article is suggesting that people are wonder= ful, benevolent, morally superior primates. I'm stunned. If there ever wa= s a reason to consider whether great apes were indifferent to the welfare o= f others, it must be human indifference to chimpanzee suffering. Chimps la= nguish in labs and teeter on the brink of extinction - because of us. It's= tragic that the media hook is some a half-cocked notion that people are su= perior to non-human animals and that our indifference to chimps (and other = animals, too) is overlooked. Cheers, Debi Debra L. Durham, PhD Department of Anthropology Box 353100 Seattle, WA 98195 dldurham@u.washington.edu On Fri, 28 Oct 2005 Michalchik@aol.com wrote: > Recently and article came out in nature and was popularly reported. I fel= t > it was necessary to reply to it. Here is the popular account and my repl= y. > In sum: > > True altruism, like any sophisticated behavior is a hard thing to detect = in > animals and I expect will eventually be scientifically described in anima= ls > given enough time and clever enough methodology, like so many other "uniq= uely > human" behaviors have been. > > Human behavior is rarely purely altruistic and such rare occurrence eithe= r > involve very low cost efforts on the part of the donor or can be attribut= ed to > the pathological extreme of normal variations in behavior. > > Many cases of true altruism in both humans and animals can be seen as the > side effects of extremely powerful instincts such as care of the young, a= nd > certainly aren't uniquely human. > > Our persistent need to find some quality that is positive and uniquely h= uman > is not a scientific quest but one of ego and a vestige of primitive > religious thinking that disparately continues to seek to find a way to pu= t man in the > center of the universe. Our quest to understand ourselves and our > relationship with the creatures we share this world with is a noble and v= aluable > pursuit so long as we don't keep trying to force our conclusions into obs= olete > framework. > > Sincerely, > > Michael Michalchik From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 28-OCT-2005 23:21:51.39 To: IN%"tuuli.kontio@pp.inet.fi" "Tuuli-Susanna Kontio" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Hi Tuuli, I am curious about why you believe all behavioral problems are the fault of humans? I recently told of a horse who is aggressive and also has low thyroid, and seems to be improving with treatment. Do you believe that this is the fault of humans? Best, Kayce > Hi all, > > I very rarely reply to this list but this time I felt a need to open my > mouth. > > First of all is the problem itself. Boxer is a very active breed. I would > like to ask how is this dog being exercised? Daily? How many hours? What > do you do with him? Do you play with him? Does he see other dogs? To me it > sounds like this dog has been living a very boring life and is thus > exhibiting boredom through excessive barking and moving. I.e. he has > nowhere else to put this energy he has. I would slowly start getting him > more excercise and active playtime, socializing him with other people and > dogs. He needs to get tired, so for a boxer that may require something > like two to four hours of running every day. I would also suggest daily > obedience training. People should remember that getting a dog brings > responsibility. You are responsible for his wellbeing. Getting another dog > may help so the boxer gets a play mate but please remember, that it is not > enough for a large and very active breed. And a GSD is also a large, very > active breed. THe puppy will grow into a similar problem dog she is not > physically & mentally activated enough! > > Then there is Michael's reply. I am very much against causing any pain to > an animal, especially when the origin of this problem is not in the dog > himself. It is ALWAYS people who cause dogs (or any animals) to have > behavioural problems, not the dog himself. Dogs are dogs, not human. > Keeping in mind that in this case the dog may actually have been rewarded > for his behaviour (he barks > the door gets opened, he barks > people come > and see him, he barks > people give him food to be quiet etc etc etc). So > he is only doing what he thinks is "right". Shok collar is only a way to > confuse the dog. He wont know why he is is given a punishment for a > behaviour he has been doing for a very long time. Shock collars are banned > in Finland and I think they should be in a lot of other countries too. If > you dont know how to use one (i.e. if yo are not a professional) dont use > it. > > I however agree with Michael that citronella is even worse. You may want > to try and get a professional animal behaviourist to help you learn how to > combat this problem, i.e. how to stop the barking & jumping. My first aid > help is only to offer the dog LOTS more things to do. If he has other > activities he wont have time to bark and jums, does he? Also get him tired > but if he is not used to running, start it slowly. But remind yourself it > is never the dogs fault. > > All the best, > > Tuuli > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michalchik@aol.com > To: SeanSeanl@aol.com ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 4:41 AM > Subject: Barking problem was (no subject) > > > He very well may pass these behaviors on to the new puppy. Please check > the archives for suggestions; there have been many extensive debates on > this subject. I am not an expert on animal behavior and I am very > concerned about animal happiness and welfare but I have to say that I > have been favorable impressed by the results of shock collars. In a few > barks the dogs I have seen learn that is not what they want to do, then > the dog learns to calm itself down and becomes happy, quiet and > friendly. Excessive barking, to me, seems to be part of a behavioral > cycle in which a dog works himself into a tantrum that he does not know > how to calm down from. Break the cycle and more healthy behaviors can > take over. The dogs I have seen stopped barking immediately and did not > need the collars turned on after a few days. I should say that I was > vehemently opposed to shock colors until I saw them work. > > I should say that citronella collars have been suggested as a humane > alternative to shock collars. I think this is probably a bad idea. We > are anthropomorphizing what constitutes humane treatment. Citrus oil is > highly toxic to most non-primates and probably smells extremely bad to > them (think how a rotting corpse smells to us). It lingers much longer > than a shock does, could cause gagging and choking, and does not give > the same easily understandable immediate short feedback that a shock > does. Further a dogs sense of smell is 250 million times better than a > humans. Yes, a citronella collar would be nicer to a human than a shock > collar. In fact I would find it pleasing. To a dog I suspect citronella > is somewhere between horrific and traumatic but the fact is we don't > know. > > The other thing that you can do for the dog is to provide it with things > to do. I think boredom accentuates loneliness, A playmate as you have > done is a very good idea, but the dog is never going to appreciate these > distractions unless it gets out of its behavioral rut. > > Michael Michalchik Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"tuuli.kontio@pp.inet.fi" 28-OCT-2005 23:53:19.62 To: IN%"kc@synalia.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Vs: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) Hi Kayce, Obviously purely medical problems and related are a whole different issue. But, yes, I believe most problems of any kind domesticated animals have, ar= e a=20 fault of humans in some form or another (one could argue that we as=20 nonresponsible breeders of animals very much create a chance for medical=20 problems, as is easily seen from e.g. dog HD/ED, HC, epilepsy etc.=20 statistics). =20 Cheers, Tuuli ----Alkuper=C3=A4inen viesti---- L=C3=A4hett=C3=A4j=C3=A4: kc@synalia.com P=C3=A4iv=C3=A4m=C3=A4=C3=A4r=C3=A4: Oct 29, 2005 7:14:21 AM Vastaanottaja: Tuuli-Susanna Kontio Kopio: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Aihe: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) Hi Tuuli, I am curious about why you believe all behavioral problems are the fault of humans? I recently told of a horse who is aggressive and also has low thyroid, and seems to be improving with treatment. Do you believe that this is the fault of humans? Best, Kayce > Hi all, > > I very rarely reply to this list but this time I felt a need to open my > mouth. > > First of all is the problem itself. Boxer is a very active breed. I would > like to ask how is this dog being exercised? Daily? How many hours? What > do you do with him? Do you play with him? Does he see other dogs? To me i= t > sounds like this dog has been living a very boring life and is thus > exhibiting boredom through excessive barking and moving. I.e. he has > nowhere else to put this energy he has. I would slowly start getting him > more excercise and active playtime, socializing him with other people and > dogs. He needs to get tired, so for a boxer that may require something > like two to four hours of running every day. I would also suggest daily > obedience training. People should remember that getting a dog brings > responsibility. You are responsible for his wellbeing. Getting another do= g > may help so the boxer gets a play mate but please remember, that it is no= t > enough for a large and very active breed. And a GSD is also a large, very > active breed. THe puppy will grow into a similar problem dog she is not > physically & mentally activated enough! > > Then there is Michael's reply. I am very much against causing any pain to > an animal, especially when the origin of this problem is not in the dog > himself. It is ALWAYS people who cause dogs (or any animals) to have > behavioural problems, not the dog himself. Dogs are dogs, not human. > Keeping in mind that in this case the dog may actually have been rewarded > for his behaviour (he barks > the door gets opened, he barks > people com= e > and see him, he barks > people give him food to be quiet etc etc etc). So > he is only doing what he thinks is "right". Shok collar is only a way to > confuse the dog. He wont know why he is is given a punishment for a > behaviour he has been doing for a very long time. Shock collars are banne= d > in Finland and I think they should be in a lot of other countries too. If > you dont know how to use one (i.e. if yo are not a professional) dont use > it. > > I however agree with Michael that citronella is even worse. You may want > to try and get a professional animal behaviourist to help you learn how t= o > combat this problem, i.e. how to stop the barking & jumping. My first aid > help is only to offer the dog LOTS more things to do. If he has other > activities he wont have time to bark and jums, does he? Also get him tire= d > but if he is not used to running, start it slowly. But remind yourself it > is never the dogs fault. > > All the best, > > Tuuli > > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Michalchik@aol.com > To: SeanSeanl@aol.com ; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 4:41 AM > Subject: Barking problem was (no subject) > > > He very well may pass these behaviors on to the new puppy. Please check > the archives for suggestions; there have been many extensive debates on > this subject. I am not an expert on animal behavior and I am very > concerned about animal happiness and welfare but I have to say that I > have been favorable impressed by the results of shock collars. In a few > barks the dogs I have seen learn that is not what they want to do, then > the dog learns to calm itself down and becomes happy, quiet and > friendly. Excessive barking, to me, seems to be part of a behavioral > cycle in which a dog works himself into a tantrum that he does not know > how to calm down from. Break the cycle and more healthy behaviors can > take over. The dogs I have seen stopped barking immediately and did not > need the collars turned on after a few days. I should say that I was > vehemently opposed to shock colors until I saw them work. > > I should say that citronella collars have been suggested as a humane > alternative to shock collars. I think this is probably a bad idea. We > are anthropomorphizing what constitutes humane treatment. Citrus oil is > highly toxic to most non-primates and probably smells extremely bad to > them (think how a rotting corpse smells to us). It lingers much longer > than a shock does, could cause gagging and choking, and does not give > the same easily understandable immediate short feedback that a shock > does. Further a dogs sense of smell is 250 million times better than a > humans. Yes, a citronella collar would be nicer to a human than a shock > collar. In fact I would find it pleasing. To a dog I suspect citronella > is somewhere between horrific and traumatic but the fact is we don't > know. > > The other thing that you can do for the dog is to provide it with thing= s > to do. I think boredom accentuates loneliness, A playmate as you have > done is a very good idea, but the dog is never going to appreciate these > distractions unless it gets out of its behavioral rut. > > Michael Michalchik Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 29-OCT-2005 00:39:12.13 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dumb question In the movie, "The gods must be crazy" an entertaining but hardly authoritative movie. It is clamed that rhino's instinctively stamp out small fires. Though this has obvious survival value, I would think it would be a behavior that would be nearly impossible to evolve. Any truth to this idea Michael From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 29-OCT-2005 06:03:50.29 To: IN%"tuuli.kontio@pp.inet.fi" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Vs: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) Thank you for your reply, Tuuli. Just for the record, I see many animals on a regular basis. Many of these are not domesticated, and some are actually living in wild situations. I find that: a) some animals just seem to come with issues - often with no apparent cause, and b) that within a litter or similar situtations, animals will react very differently, so that some animals have severe problems with no apparent cause, and some animals have no apparent problems despite apparently severe provocations, c) that with coping skills, many of the problem situations can be well managed by the animals themselves, and d) that in wild populations, there is still a "pecking order" often, or that certain animals will be rogue - one notable example in my mind is a really aggressive male grizzly bear that steals salmon from other bears in Alaska (wild situation, natural feeding, not many people even in that part of the world). This has been video taped, as has an alternative situation of a femaie bear helping her injured brother (injured by a male bear, if I remember correctly), catch salmon so that he does not starve. Also videotaped. In short, I find that like people, animals have their own personal challenges, regardless of the people they interface with. While people can certainly affect animal behavior, animals are largely self-determining, and they are certainly not "blank slates" until we come on the scene with them. Best wishes, Kayce > Hi Kayce, > > Obviously purely medical problems and related are a whole different issue. > > But, yes, I believe most problems of any kind domesticated animals have, > are a > fault of humans in some form or another (one could argue that we as > nonresponsible breeders of animals very much create a chance for medical > problems, as is easily seen from e.g. dog HD/ED, HC, epilepsy etc. > statistics). > > Cheers, > > Tuuli > From: IN%"rbogle@sonic.net" "Rick Bogle" 29-OCT-2005 09:40:37.82 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Animals and favors In fact, Masserman et al. explored altruism in a controlled setting = decades ago. The studies are the exemplar case of two separate = phenomena: 1. Rhesus monkeys will forego food for extended periods of time -- act = altruistically -- to avoid hurting another monkey. 2. No demonstration of animal mind or emotional similarity to humans = will be sufficient to cause those who harm animals to stop. See:=20 MASSERMAN JH, WECHKIN S, TERRIS W. "ALTRUISTIC" BEHAVIOR IN RHESUS = MONKEYS. Am J Psychiatry. 1964 Dec;121:584-5. Rick Bogle Madison -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 9:25 PM To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Animals and favors Recently and article came out in nature and was popularly reported. I = felt it was necessary to reply to it. Here is the popular account and my = reply. Chimps won=E2=80=99t do a neighbor a favor Oct. 26, 2005 Special to World Science Long ago were the days, it seems, when we humans could consider = ourselves truly unique.=20 With chimps and other animals having been found to exhibit a range of = human-like traits=E2=80=94including tool use, culture and some elements = of language=E2=80=94it=E2=80=99s gotten harder and harder for scientists = and philosophers to say just what sets us apart. =20 They just don't care that much, a new study suggests. (Image = courtesy National Institutes of Health) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ =20 Finally, there may be some news to make us feel special again. Researchers say they may have found one key trait that clearly = separates humans from chimps, and possibly from other species: = we=E2=80=99re the only ones that do favors without expecting something = in return. Chimps don=E2=80=99t show this sort of consideration, the researchers = found. To be sure, they have been found to exhibit signs of empathy. Chimps = help family members, for example, and sometimes console victims of = aggression. But outside of these special situations, according to the = scientists, chimps will let neighbors cast for themselves.=20 Joan Silk of the University of California, Los Angeles and colleagues = conducted a study that they said confirmed this, showing chimps are = uninterested in doing a friend a good turn, even at no cost to = themselves. The researchers presented captive chimps with a device that gave them = a choice between two options. The chimp could choose to serve only = itself with food, or it could select an option that gave it the same = food, but also resulted in food being delivered to another chimpanzee.=20 The chimpanzees were no more likely to choose the second option, even = though they could see that it would help a friend at no inconvenience to = themselves, the researchers said. Many human habits=E2=80=94such as donating blood, giving to charity = and punishing social offenders=E2=80=94show consideration for others, = even strangers. The chimpanzees=E2=80=99 lack of such regard was made = more surprising by the fact that the chimpanzees used in the study had = been living together in stable social groups for many years, the = researchers said. The scientists added that they conducted the test with two separate = chimp populations, and got the same results. =E2=80=9CChimpanzees cooperate mainly with kin and reciprocating = partners,=E2=80=9D they wrote in a paper to appear in the Oct. 27 issue = of the research journal Nature.=20 Chimps have also been found to have a sense of = =E2=80=9Cfairness,=E2=80=9D in that they respond negatively to unfair = interactions. But they do so only when they themselves get the raw deal, = not someone else. They =E2=80=9Cshow no aversion to inequitable = exchanges that benefit themselves,=E2=80=9D Silk and colleagues wrote. =E2=80=9CThe absence of other-regarding preferences in = chimpanzees,=E2=80=9D they added, =E2=80=9Cmay indicate that such = preferences are a derived property of the human = species=E2=80=9D=E2=80=94that is, a trait we developed independently of = our evolutionary ancestors. This trait may be =E2=80=9Ctied to sophisticated capacities for = cultural learning, theory of mind [the ability to infer someone = else=E2=80=99s thoughts], perspective taking and moral = judgement,=E2=80=9D the authors added. Nonetheless, it=E2=80=99s possible that some other animals will turn = out to do favors after all, the researchers said. =E2=80=9COther-regarding preferences might be found in other species = that rely more heavily on cooperative strategies than chimpanzees do, = such as cooperatively breeding mammals. Further work on other species = will help to clarify the socioecological conditions and cognitive = requirements associated with the evolution of other-regarding = preferences.=E2=80=9D=20 For many years people have claimed that animals don't do many things, = such as use tools, have a number sense, make tools, make wars, kill for = sport, kill their own species, play in adulthood, manage their = environments, have self-awareness, use words or symbols, etc... All of = these assertions have been proven false albeit in limited ways among a = limited groups of animals after a lot of hard research. The reasons why = we keep making mistakes like this is much more due to our limitations = than the animals limitations. Humans have been under intense evolutionary pressures to be keenly = sensitive to human behaviors, human standards and human ways of = communicating. By comparison we watch and understand animals poorly. = Kindness without expectation of reward is a difficult concept to define = even in humans and it seems to be a rare phenomena in humans too. Most = of the behaviors we choose to call altruistic do have hidden payoffs.=20 Donations to charity are often done, in amounts the represent trivial = costs on the parts of donors and are done by relatively small (perhaps = aberrantly small parts of the population). Most big donations are done = in conjunction with self-promotion, to further socio-political agendas, = and in the context of groups such as churches or political parties where = reputations for generosity and monetary clout is more valuable than = money itself.=20 The favors we do, on a day to day basis, are generally quite small and = are also analogous to the peer-group reciprocity systems that other = animals have worked out such as blood sharing in vampire bats. Humans = often do favors without a declared schedule of repayment, but even in = tight related groups such as families, fights break out if favors are = consistently one sided.=20 Humans also do display apparent altruism in their willingness to care = for other needy creatures apparently unrelated to them, but this is not = the preferred course of human activity. The vast majority of adoptions = occur only after biological reproduction is precluded and I believe is a = side-effect of an instinctive drive to care for the young, cute and = helpless, that predates and overrides human intellectual capacities. = Animals also clearly display the behavior of adopting young that are not = their own. There is no doubt that humans engage in more sophisticated games of = reciprocity than do animals and take a broader view than animals can, = but saying that our species displays a characteristic altruism that is = qualitatively different than animals, reflects a poor and superficial = examination of both human and animals behavior. In sum: True altruism, like any sophisticated behavior is a hard thing to = detect in animals and I expect will eventually be scientifically = described in animals given enough time and clever enough methodology, = like so many other "uniquely human" behaviors have been. Human behavior is rarely purely altruistic and such rare occurrence = either involve very low cost efforts on the part of the donor or can be = attributed to the pathological extreme of normal variations in behavior. Many cases of true altruism in both humans and animals can be seen as = the side effects of extremely powerful instincts such as care of the = young, and certainly aren't uniquely human. Our persistent need to find some quality that is positive and uniquely = human is not a scientific quest but one of ego and a vestige of = primitive religious thinking that disparately continues to seek to find = a way to put man in the center of the universe. Our quest to understand = ourselves and our relationship with the creatures we share this world = with is a noble and valuable pursuit so long as we don't keep trying to = force our conclusions into obsolete framework. Sincerely, Michael Michalchik= From: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com" "Christina Le Breton" 29-OCT-2005 10:12:16.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) In most cases, 99% of problem behaviors unfortunately are due to the lack of education from the owner...whether it be they are uneducated about obedience training, exercise or even nutrition. OR they are just looking for free help and most certainly do not want to put a cent (or the effort) into their dog (I've come across many people who would like me to blink me eyes and the dog be fixed). Nutrition CAN and will play a BIG part in how a dog behaves, and most people are unaware of this. Commercial foods can cause all sorts of lovely problems, as well as vaccinations. And because the boxer is such an active breed, they need to be stimulated WAY more then others. The "fighting breeds" (and I say this term VERY loosely) as they have been termed are not like other breeds, what I mean is, they were originally bred to be independent, whether for work in the pit or (in the case of terriers) in the holes after rodents. Therefore, they were made to think for themselves, and unless you give them something to do, their little minds are just going to keep racing. More mind exercise compared to physical exercise is good (however, you do want to make sure they are getting adequate physical exercise as well). Being an owner of "fighting breeds" (English Bull Terriers), and having to interact with SO many of the same "type" I can tell you this, you cannot give harsh corrections...either a) they do not feel it b) they think it is fun or c) you can ruin them. These breeds are extremely sensitive and do not react well to harsh treatment. Have you ever seen a boxer or pit bull or bull terrier get corrected? In most cases, they shut down and refuse to work. If I yell @ my oldest bull terrier (because he did something wrong, not just for the sake of yelling...my dogs are conditioned to loud noise), he will vomit. That is how sensitive he is. If I give too hard a correction, then I am there for the next 5 hours trying to get a victory. The trick is to get them to think THEY are having fun and that it was THEIR idea in the first place. I have also e-mailed this person privately. Christina On 10/28/05, Michalchik@aol.com wrote: > > > He very well may pass these behaviors on to the new puppy. Please check the archives for suggestions; there have been many extensive debates on this subject. I am not an expert on animal behavior and I am very concerned about animal happiness and welfare but I have to say that I have been favorable impressed by the results of shock collars. In a few barks the dogs I have seen learn that is not what they want to do, then the dog learns to calm itself down and becomes happy, quiet and friendly. Excessive barking, to me, seems to be part of a behavioral cycle in which a dog works himself into a tantrum that he does not know how to calm down from. Break the cycle and more healthy behaviors can take over. The dogs I have seen stopped barking immediately and did not need the collars turned on after a few days. I should say that I was vehemently opposed to shock colors until I saw them work. > > I should say that citronella collars have been suggested as a humane alternative to shock collars. I think this is probably a bad idea. We are anthropomorphizing what constitutes humane treatment. Citrus oil is highly toxic to most non-primates and probably smells extremely bad to them (think how a rotting corpse smells to us). It lingers much longer than a shock does, could cause gagging and choking, and does not give the same easily understandable immediate short feedback that a shock does. Further a dogs sense of smell is 250 million times better than a humans. Yes, a citronella collar would be nicer to a human than a shock collar. In fact I would find it pleasing. To a dog I suspect citronella is somewhere between horrific and traumatic but the fact is we don't know. > > The other thing that you can do for the dog is to provide it with things to do. I think boredom accentuates loneliness, A playmate as you have done is a very good idea, but the dog is never going to appreciate these distractions unless it gets out of its behavioral rut. > > Michael Michalchik From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 29-OCT-2005 14:00:48.98 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Vs: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kayce Cover" > In short, I find that like people, animals have their own personal > challenges, regardless of the people they interface with. While people > can certainly affect animal behavior, animals are largely > self-determining, and they are certainly not "blank slates" until we come > on the scene with them. Hi Kayce, Interesting post about the wild animals and your comment above clarifies something for me ( I think). You appear to believe that humans have little impact on the behaviour of animals - animals make their own choices - is that right? Wild animals HAVE to be self determining, their survival depends on it. Without doubt their behaviour will show variation because they will have different genetics and learning and absolutely, rogues can appear in any population. IME mainly with dogs, I have found that they responded enormously to the behaviour of their owners and to their environments. Certainly they have their own 'personality' as do we all but we are all also hugely affected by the environment around us - the people we live and work with, the work we do etc. Dogs, in particular share the home of people in a way that a horse and a grizzly bear don't. Their genetics have been manipulated by humans for many generations and apparently temperamental traits can be bred 'in' or 'out' very quickly. Many people are now treating their dogs as surrogate children and this appears to be causing a myriad of anxiety related problems with the dogs. I have attached a really interesting post sent to another list. Cheers Diana Man's Best Friend Is Pretty Smart http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/26/tech/main981130.shtml BUDAPEST, Hungary, Oct. 26, 2005 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- (AP) Quote Dogs, says canine intelligence researcher Vilmos Csanyi, love to imitate humans. "This is not a little thing," he adds, "because they must pay attention to the person's actions, remember them, and then apply them to their own body." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- (AP) This story was written by Colin Woodard. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- At Eotvos Lorand University's Department of Ethology, visitors are usually greeted not by a security guard, but by a delegation of friendly mongrels, tails wagging. Dogs have the run of the place. They play in classrooms, visit faculty members in their offices, or nap in the laboratories. Animals here are no surprise - ethology is the zoological study of animal behavior - but the total lack of cages is. And why would there be, asks research fellow Adam Miklosi, who leads much of the research here into the cognitive abilities of man's best friend. "If you were studying human behavior, you wouldn't keep your subjects in a cage for 20 years and then ask them some questions?" he asks with a smile. "These are animals who've been brought up in a normal way, which allows us to see and understand them in their natural environment, which is the human environment." After a decade studying dogs in their human habitat, Mr. Miklosi and his colleagues have accumulated a body of evidence suggesting that dogs have far greater mental capabilities than scientists had thought. Dogs' smarts, it turns out, come out in their relationships with people. The implications of this research are more esoteric than the average dog owner may appreciate. The research doesn't exactly mean that dogs and their masters can enjoy Chaucer together, but it does mean scientists have reason to consider what dog-human communications may say about language skills development. Another implication is that dogs may make better cognitive study subjects than primates, which have been the focus of the field thus far. Until recently, domestication was thought to have dulled dogs' intelligence. Studies in the early 1980s showed that wolves, from which dogs probably descended, can unlock a gate after watching a human do it once, while dogs remained stumped after watching repeatedly. That never sat well with Vilmos Csanyi, the recently retired head of Mr. Miklosi's department. Mr. Csanyi, who had dogs of his own, suspected the dogs were awaiting permission to open the gate, that they regarded opening the gate as a violation of their master's rules. AP) In 1997, Csanyi and his colleagues tested 28 dogs of various ages, breeds, and closeness to their owners, to see if they could learn to obtain cold cuts on the other side of a fence by pulling on the handles of dishes while their owners were present. Dogs with a close relationship to their owners fared worse than outdoor dogs. But when the dogs' owners were allowed to give the animals verbal permission, the gap between the groups vanished. Since then, Csanyi's team has demonstrated just how much dogs can accomplish by paying attention to people. In one classic experiment on dogs' use of human visual cues, food is hidden in one of several scent-proof containers. The animal is allowed to choose only one. Beforehand, the experimenter signals the correct choice by staring, nodding, or pointing at it. Chimpanzees, humans' closest genetic relatives, have always done poorly at this test. Dogs solved the problem immediately. Dogs also excel at imitating people. In one of the laboratories, graduate student Zsofia Viranyi demonstrates with Todor, an enthusiastic little mutt. Todor sits attentively as Ms. Viranyi spins around in a circle and comes to a stop. "Csinal," she says. ("You do it!") Todor does a little 360 on the tiled floor and lets out an enthusiastic bark. He easily imitates Viranyi's bow, lifting of an arm, and other tasks. The team found that some dogs can even imitate previously unseen actions performed by a person they haven't had close contact with. Other dogs learned how to operate a simple ball-dispensing machine by watching people use it. "We thought it would be very difficult for dogs to imitate humans," Csanyi says, Chimps have great difficulty doing so, even with their larger brains. "But it turns out [dogs] love to do it. This is not a little thing, because they must pay attention to the person's actions, remember them, and then apply them to their own body." Dogs' unusual ability and motivation to observe, imitate, and communicate with people appears to be with them from birth. Two years ago, Csanyi's graduate students were given either a puppy or a wolf cub to raise. They fed the animals by hand, coddling and doting on them. At five weeks, each cub was placed in a room containing an adult and the student who had raised the cub. Both sat motionless. But while the wolf cubs merely sniffed both humans before climbing into the student's lap to sleep, the puppies yipped at their caregivers, licking their hands and trying to establish contact. Three months later, the canines were given the opportunity to try to remove a piece of meat from under a cage by pulling on a rope in the presence of their caregiver. Dogs and wolves both mastered this promptly. Then the rope was anchored, making it impossible to obtain the meat. The dogs tried a couple of times, then turned to their masters for assistance or cues. The wolves ignored their caregivers, yanking on the rope until exhausted. "The wolves ... were only interested in the meat," notes Miklosi. "The dogs were of course interested in the meat, but knew that one way to get it might be to figure out what the human wants them to do." To Csanyi, this proves that dogs have acquired an innate ability to pay attention to people, and thus to communicate and work with them. This is a skill that wolves don't assume even when raised from birth to learn it. Dogs are "very motivated to cooperate with and behave like people," says Csanyi. "That's why dogs can do things no other animal can do." By Colin Woodard ©Copyright 2005 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved. From: IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" "Good Dog Behaviour Consultants" 29-OCT-2005 14:58:29.34 To: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Canine imitation of human behaviour I can verify that my dogs imitate us in ways that can not be denied. I have footage of Sargie (the original yawning dog) moving his jaw in exact replication of my husband a split second after my husband. Three jaw opens. It is impressive stuff. We also taught Sargie to hop on the spot by imitating us. The yawning was taught through imitation in part too I suspect. However since yawning is a contagious behaviour, that explains it too. Jacqueline Perkins BVSc hons MACVSc (animal behaviour) BA Veterinary Behaviour Consultant ----- Original Message ----- From: "Whitebirds" Cc: Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 5:58 AM Subject: Re: Vs: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kayce Cover" > In short, I find that like people, animals have their own personal > challenges, regardless of the people they interface with. While people > can certainly affect animal behavior, animals are largely > self-determining, and they are certainly not "blank slates" until we come > on the scene with them. Hi Kayce, Interesting post about the wild animals and your comment above clarifies something for me ( I think). You appear to believe that humans have little impact on the behaviour of animals - animals make their own choices - is that right? Wild animals HAVE to be self determining, their survival depends on it. Without doubt their behaviour will show variation because they will have different genetics and learning and absolutely, rogues can appear in any population. IME mainly with dogs, I have found that they responded enormously to the behaviour of their owners and to their environments. Certainly they have their own 'personality' as do we all but we are all also hugely affected by the environment around us - the people we live and work with, the work we do etc. Dogs, in particular share the home of people in a way that a horse and a grizzly bear don't. Their genetics have been manipulated by humans for many generations and apparently temperamental traits can be bred 'in' or 'out' very quickly. Many people are now treating their dogs as surrogate children and this appears to be causing a myriad of anxiety related problems with the dogs. I have attached a really interesting post sent to another list. Cheers Diana Man's Best Friend Is Pretty Smart http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/26/tech/main981130.shtml BUDAPEST, Hungary, Oct. 26, 2005 ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- (AP) Quote Dogs, says canine intelligence researcher Vilmos Csanyi, love to imitate humans. "This is not a little thing," he adds, "because they must pay attention to the person's actions, remember them, and then apply them to their own body." ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- (AP) This story was written by Colin Woodard. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- ---- At Eotvos Lorand University's Department of Ethology, visitors are usually greeted not by a security guard, but by a delegation of friendly mongrels, tails wagging. Dogs have the run of the place. They play in classrooms, visit faculty members in their offices, or nap in the laboratories. Animals here are no surprise - ethology is the zoological study of animal behavior - but the total lack of cages is. And why would there be, asks research fellow Adam Miklosi, who leads much of the research here into the cognitive abilities of man's best friend. "If you were studying human behavior, you wouldn't keep your subjects in a cage for 20 years and then ask them some questions?" he asks with a smile. "These are animals who've been brought up in a normal way, which allows us to see and understand them in their natural environment, which is the human environment." After a decade studying dogs in their human habitat, Mr. Miklosi and his colleagues have accumulated a body of evidence suggesting that dogs have far greater mental capabilities than scientists had thought. Dogs' smarts, it turns out, come out in their relationships with people. The implications of this research are more esoteric than the average dog owner may appreciate. The research doesn't exactly mean that dogs and their masters can enjoy Chaucer together, but it does mean scientists have reason to consider what dog-human communications may say about language skills development. Another implication is that dogs may make better cognitive study subjects than primates, which have been the focus of the field thus far. Until recently, domestication was thought to have dulled dogs' intelligence. Studies in the early 1980s showed that wolves, from which dogs probably descended, can unlock a gate after watching a human do it once, while dogs remained stumped after watching repeatedly. That never sat well with Vilmos Csanyi, the recently retired head of Mr. Miklosi's department. Mr. Csanyi, who had dogs of his own, suspected the dogs were awaiting permission to open the gate, that they regarded opening the gate as a violation of their master's rules. AP) In 1997, Csanyi and his colleagues tested 28 dogs of various ages, breeds, and closeness to their owners, to see if they could learn to obtain cold cuts on the other side of a fence by pulling on the handles of dishes while their owners were present. Dogs with a close relationship to their owners fared worse than outdoor dogs. But when the dogs' owners were allowed to give the animals verbal permission, the gap between the groups vanished. Since then, Csanyi's team has demonstrated just how much dogs can accomplish by paying attention to people. In one classic experiment on dogs' use of human visual cues, food is hidden in one of several scent-proof containers. The animal is allowed to choose only one. Beforehand, the experimenter signals the correct choice by staring, nodding, or pointing at it. Chimpanzees, humans' closest genetic relatives, have always done poorly at this test. Dogs solved the problem immediately. Dogs also excel at imitating people. In one of the laboratories, graduate student Zsofia Viranyi demonstrates with Todor, an enthusiastic little mutt. Todor sits attentively as Ms. Viranyi spins around in a circle and comes to a stop. "Csinal," she says. ("You do it!") Todor does a little 360 on the tiled floor and lets out an enthusiastic bark. He easily imitates Viranyi's bow, lifting of an arm, and other tasks. The team found that some dogs can even imitate previously unseen actions performed by a person they haven't had close contact with. Other dogs learned how to operate a simple ball-dispensing machine by watching people use it. "We thought it would be very difficult for dogs to imitate humans," Csanyi says, Chimps have great difficulty doing so, even with their larger brains. "But it turns out [dogs] love to do it. This is not a little thing, because they must pay attention to the person's actions, remember them, and then apply them to their own body." Dogs' unusual ability and motivation to observe, imitate, and communicate with people appears to be with them from birth. Two years ago, Csanyi's graduate students were given either a puppy or a wolf cub to raise. They fed the animals by hand, coddling and doting on them. At five weeks, each cub was placed in a room containing an adult and the student who had raised the cub. Both sat motionless. But while the wolf cubs merely sniffed both humans before climbing into the student's lap to sleep, the puppies yipped at their caregivers, licking their hands and trying to establish contact. Three months later, the canines were given the opportunity to try to remove a piece of meat from under a cage by pulling on a rope in the presence of their caregiver. Dogs and wolves both mastered this promptly. Then the rope was anchored, making it impossible to obtain the meat. The dogs tried a couple of times, then turned to their masters for assistance or cues. The wolves ignored their caregivers, yanking on the rope until exhausted. "The wolves ... were only interested in the meat," notes Miklosi. "The dogs were of course interested in the meat, but knew that one way to get it might be to figure out what the human wants them to do." To Csanyi, this proves that dogs have acquired an innate ability to pay attention to people, and thus to communicate and work with them. This is a skill that wolves don't assume even when raised from birth to learn it. Dogs are "very motivated to cooperate with and behave like people," says Csanyi. "That's why dogs can do things no other animal can do." By Colin Woodard ©Copyright 2005 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights reserved. From: IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" "Good Dog Behaviour Consultants" 29-OCT-2005 15:02:00.55 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dumb question You are not trying to change the subject are you? I think it is not too far fetched and would entertain the possibility that some species could instinctively stamp out fires. Some animals are so territorial they do not like anything happening on their turf without their permission and actively try to stop any change such as an unauthorised fire. Jacqueline Perkins BVSc hons MACVSc (animal behaviour) BA Veterinary Behaviour Consultant ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg & Jackie To: gooddog@dodo.com.au Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 4:50 AM Subject: FW: Dumb question -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 4:39 PM To: Michalchik@aol.com; Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Dumb question In the movie, "The gods must be crazy" an entertaining but hardly authoritative movie. It is clamed that rhino's instinctively stamp out small fires. Though this has obvious survival value, I would think it would be a behavior that would be nearly impossible to evolve. Any truth to this idea Michael From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 29-OCT-2005 15:19:20.65 To: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"sueg@woodgreen.org.uk" Subj: RE: the possibility of long lasting improvements from short interventions Dear Diana, I am out of time, but I did answer your questions as well as I could. However, while your questions are thoughtful, I do not believe that answering them was a very useful exercise. Here is what may be more to the point: I appreciate your willingness to reconsider this technique. However, I do not expect to interest dog trainers in this technique for its general power and efficiency. I understand that if people have something that works well for them, they may not be interested in having something that works 25-75% faster but takes time to master. However, I write on this list because trainers, vets and behaviorists often encounter dogs that cannot be rehabilitated by other training methods. For those that are sick of putting healthy dogs to sleep, there is an alternative worth trying. I have held animals being euthanized, and it tears me apart when a compassionate death is the best gift I have to give them. I have seen it tear others apart, and vets have one of the highest suicide rates of any profession - possibly due to the huge toll that euthanasia takes on one's psyche. But I have learned that this stuff works stunningly in a large percentage of intractible cases. So I write, not just to save dogs, but to ease the hearts of trainers, vet nurses, vets and behaviorists. I have a stunning piece of tape showing "Star" at Wood Green, being given a shot. That part is not worth watching, because this dog, slated for euthanasia, but given a reprieve so that they could test this technique, acts like he does not even notice the needle that he would normally have viciously defended against. He then gets his treat. It appears to be a non-issue. The amazing thing about this tape, is the realization dawning on the faces of the carers. The realization that this dog has saved his own life - that they will not have to hold him to be euthanized. This realization first seeps into the faces of the vet nurse and assembled training staff, and then erupts in a joyful dance of relief and exhilaration. I show it at every seminar and every time I see that dance, it heals a bit of the damage that I accrued from the times when there was no dance. We cannot save every dog, but we can save many of them. You are in a position to influence many others. Please take a careful look. I am at your service if I can be of any help, and if you come to the US I will be happy to show you in person how it works. I am copying this to the Training Officer, at Wood Green, Sue Gearing Ketland, because she may be able to invite you to visit Wood Green if you are in the UK, and she may be able to add clarification. My answers to your questions are below: > ----- Original Message ----- > Hi Kayce, > > I would love to see this data. We are working on a paper. > I imagine the Wood Green staff have some experience and training and are > attempting to follow your methods and principles? Only 4 out of 121. Often the dog get introduced, or some training time, but then is handled by people untrained in this technique. No animal has had more than 30 total training hours to turn him around. > > Having instructed and watched others instruct, it's clear to me that even > when learners TRY to follow instructions, it's clear they haven't heard or > understood all the information or don't yet have the physical skills and > they make many mistakes. I guess this is why you have two or three day > seminars - to try and teach people thoroughly? > That is certainly a reason. But it takes a lot longer to teach the person to teach this way than it does to teach the dog, or a person to handle the trained dog. >> We have increasing numbers of vets and vet behaviorists learning this >> technique to apply with animals of clients, and some of the results are >> dramatic indeed. Some are becoming certified in the technique, having >> seen >> and followed the results, notably Niwako Ogato, DVM (and completing her >> PhD) who is the first vet behaviorist in Japan, and also the first >> person >> certified in this technique in Japan. > > I know many vets who admit to knowing almost nothing about behaviour. If > they are learning more that has to be a good thing! Yes, they have been a progressive and open-minded lot. >> In one recent case, an owner contacted 6 behaviorists for help with >> getting fluids injected into a 17 year old feral cat. The vet had >> nothing >> to offer, as the cat would not allow two hands on her, and was >> indifferent >> to food. Euthanasia was suggested in every case. In two sessions, the >> cat is now getting regular fluids, wearing a halter, taking walks >> outside >> and being held in her owners arms for the first time in her life. At >> the >> advanced age of 17, these changes are not likely to be permanent, but we >> will be happy if they maintain for another 3-5 years. > > Brilliant! These two sessions involved what? In these sessions, I was working the cat, so a lot of information was delivered to the cat. > >> I just spent 4 days with a group of trainers and the horses and staff of >> the NCPG (National Center for Handicapped Equestrians) in the >> Netherlands, >> and am getting daily reports of sustained, dramatic improvements in >> everything from horses coming voluntarily in from the field to be >> haltered, to fears resolving, to attitude and aggression improvement. > > Again, I'm assuming these animals are being handled by people you have > taught to use the method? Only two people of the entire staff have proficiency as trainers, but many handle the trained animals. >> In fact one case of impermanent improvement occurred there. In May I >> saw >> a horse there who was very good in her work, but would suddenly attempt >> to >> bite people - but not often. I spent a total of three sessions with >> her, >> and she did not bite at all for almost 4 months, despite the fact that >> there was absolutely NO alteration of regular practices, even to include >> naming or bridging. > > If she tried to bite people but not often, how often did she bite? Would > she > normally not bite for 4 months? Suffice it to sat that this progress was considered a bit short of a miracle. > >> So, here is a horse with a biological basis and a preexisting history of >> agression, who corrected with an investment of 3 sessions, for almost >> four >> months, and her relapse was subsequent to a traumatic accident and a >> great >> loss. I think even this "failure" is pretty amazing. > > Again, if the horse doesn't bite that often it is hard to gauge how > successful or not this is. > >> Cynicism is not a bad thing, as long as one also maintains an open mind >> and makes an active attempt to resolve their doubts. I know that you >> did >> not see this technique from me, during the time I was in New Zealand, so >> that your cynicism comes from a general disposition towards it, and not >> from any particular knowledge you have of this technique. > > I am making an active attempt to resolve my doubts now. You are telling > me > about permanent improvement, Clare tells me the importance of owner > compliance, which is what I would expect. > > I wasn't able to observe your sessions in NZ but I made sure to ask people > who did attend about them. I had no reports like the ones you provide. I > was > told there were videos and that you are clearly a brilliant animal > trainer. > The people I spoke to didn't have any major revelations with their own > animals although I was told about one dog that appeared to learn a lot > quickly. I don't know if it went on to remember what it learned but I > expect > if the owner had learned the method well, the training would have > continued. > No one mentioned behavioural changes but perhaps people who attended > didn't > have animals with major issues or just weren't aware of major improvements > that took place. Hmmm... I was told otherwise by a number of owners, some with tears in their eyes. However, the main purpose of the seminars is to train owners, not dogs. Nonetheless, we have some very dramatic breakthroughs with dogs, in the seminar context. I collect a lot of video in order to collect and review these breakthroughs as I have time. Right now, I spend a lot more time training than reviewing! > > I have no doubts about your training abilities. My concern is simply that > when you tell us about your work you make it all sound so easy and so > quick > and it sounds permanent. Experience tells me otherwise. Every other > excellent animal trainer I've met or spoken to via email, would agree with > what Clare wrote about the importance of continued correct training/ > handling procedures. I certainly understand your well-advised caution. It took awhile before I started publishing claims. However, if you come to a seminar, you will find that I often ask people to time their work. I also get long term feedback from some owners, and from institutions. I am actually rather conservative in my claims. The results really often are stunningly dramatic. As the director of training at Wood Green Animal Shelters, Sue (Gearing) Ketland said, "I felt that it was too good to be true....(however) SATS has already saved the lives of numerous animals within our care, and it takes just minutes to condition the bridges and targets. It is becoming more and more of a way of life at Wood Green, and we continue to see animals improve and people's attitudes change. The more we talk about our successes, and open our doors for people to come and see for themselves, the better chance we have of helping so many more animals." Dogs Today, May 2005, pages 22-25, in an interview. Wood Green is following the SATS trained animals with severe problems, and so far, no known problems with animals in homes with untrained owners. Duration is up to about two years for some of the animals. > > However since you maintain that effects can be permanent regardless of > handling/ training I'll need to read your site again and investigate more > thoroughly. Thank you, Diana, for being willing to make an investment. If you are in the UK, you will be welcome at Wood Green, where you can see the process in action, and many cases at once. On my website, you will want the Perception Modification information, which is also available in the http://www.groups.yahoo.group/bridgeandtarget2 list. > > Clare, the difference that I see between animals and people would be the > level of motivation and self control. We cannot say that a horse 'wants' > to > overcome their phobia or 'believes' they can do it. 'Choosing' to do it > when > all the circumstances surrounding it stay the same as before, seem even > more > unlikely. They certainly often do choose it. In fact, Jan Westby, an accomplished clicker trainer, just relayed a case of a jrt who found relaxation difficult, who then came up to her and solicited help in the conditioned relaxation and put himself into the relaxed down, right at her side. We often see an animal encounter a former trigger, yawn and mouth, turn to the owner, and return to their side, leaning into them, relaxing their faces and starting the relaxation process. > > Recent discussions with a skilled animal trainer with a fear aggressive > dog > showed that the dog had made huge progress but it had taken years in > skilled > hands and the owner did not consider the dog to be completely 'cured' or > that a 'cure' was possible. He would never be a 'normal' dog because his > background was so 'abnormal'. > I cannot tell you how many dogs of this description I have seen become absolutely trustworthy in the most rigorous test we can devise, regardless of history. In fact, I don't even ask about history. > It worries me that people may see improvements in their animals and then > take 'risks' because they believe them to be 'cured'. I've seen people do > this and it aint pretty. Kayce writes as if this is unlikely to happen and > it does seem too magical given what every other trainer I've spoken to > says. Well, owners certainly do take huge risks. And I advise against it. No one is more surprized than I at how durable the results are. Ironically, I am an extremely cautious and methodical trainer. I am just fast and efficient. With this technique, we get rid of the dead air space in our communication with animals, and deliver a steady stream of data. A LOT happens in a few minutes. Across the board, trainers are reporting that their training time has been cut by 25-75%, just by using an Intermediate Bridge. > > I've read the site but perhaps I've missed something. I'll reread and try > and find a stressed out animal to work on. I'm sure the SPCA will have > some > :). > > Cheers > Diana > > Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"kc@synalia.com" 29-OCT-2005 15:25:53.27 To: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Vs: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) Thank you, Diana. This is a really interesting article and I appreciate your sending it. I agree about the cognitive abilities of dogs but will add that the sheep do the best of all the animals at Wood Green, in the language acquisition skills. Keith Kendell will not be surprized! Your point about pet owners is well taken. However, I don't see (experience) a huge difference between pets, livestock and exotics - at least on that basis. Best wishes, Kayce > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Kayce Cover" > >> In short, I find that like people, animals have their own personal >> challenges, regardless of the people they interface with. While people >> can certainly affect animal behavior, animals are largely >> self-determining, and they are certainly not "blank slates" until we >> come >> on the scene with them. > > Hi Kayce, > > Interesting post about the wild animals and your comment above clarifies > something for me ( I think). You appear to believe that humans have little > impact on the behaviour of animals - animals make their own choices - is > that right? Wild animals HAVE to be self determining, their survival > depends > on it. Without doubt their behaviour will show variation because they will > have different genetics and learning and absolutely, rogues can appear in > any population. > > IME mainly with dogs, I have found that they responded enormously to the > behaviour of their owners and to their environments. Certainly they have > their own 'personality' as do we all but we are all also hugely affected > by > the environment around us - the people we live and work with, the work we > do > etc. > > Dogs, in particular share the home of people in a way that a horse and a > grizzly bear don't. Their genetics have been manipulated by humans for > many > generations and apparently temperamental traits can be bred 'in' or 'out' > very quickly. Many people are now treating their dogs as surrogate > children > and this appears to be causing a myriad of anxiety related problems with > the > dogs. > > I have attached a really interesting post sent to another list. > > Cheers > Diana > > Man's Best Friend Is Pretty Smart > > http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/26/tech/main981130.shtml > BUDAPEST, Hungary, Oct. 26, 2005 > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > (AP) > > > Quote > > Dogs, says canine intelligence researcher Vilmos Csanyi, love to imitate > humans. "This is not a little thing," he adds, "because they must pay > attention to the person's actions, remember them, and then apply them to > their own body." > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > (AP) This story was written by Colin Woodard. > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > ---- > > > At Eotvos Lorand University's Department of Ethology, visitors are usually > greeted not by a security guard, but by a delegation of friendly mongrels, > tails wagging. Dogs have the run of the place. They play in classrooms, > visit faculty members in their offices, or nap in the laboratories. > Animals > here are no surprise - ethology is the zoological study of animal behavior > - > but the total lack of cages is. > > And why would there be, asks research fellow Adam Miklosi, who leads much > of > the research here into the cognitive abilities of man's best friend. > > "If you were studying human behavior, you wouldn't keep your subjects in a > cage for 20 years and then ask them some questions?" he asks with a smile. > "These are animals who've been brought up in a normal way, which allows us > to see and understand them in their natural environment, which is the > human > environment." > > After a decade studying dogs in their human habitat, Mr. Miklosi and his > colleagues have accumulated a body of evidence suggesting that dogs have > far > greater mental capabilities than scientists had thought. > > Dogs' smarts, it turns out, come out in their relationships with people. > > The implications of this research are more esoteric than the average dog > owner may appreciate. The research doesn't exactly mean that dogs and > their > masters can enjoy Chaucer together, but it does mean scientists have > reason > to consider what dog-human communications may say about language skills > development. > > Another implication is that dogs may make better cognitive study subjects > than primates, which have been the focus of the field thus far. > > Until recently, domestication was thought to have dulled dogs' > intelligence. > Studies in the early 1980s showed that wolves, from which dogs probably > descended, can unlock a gate after watching a human do it once, while dogs > remained stumped after watching repeatedly. > > That never sat well with Vilmos Csanyi, the recently retired head of Mr. > Miklosi's department. Mr. Csanyi, who had dogs of his own, suspected the > dogs were awaiting permission to open the gate, that they regarded opening > the gate as a violation of their master's rules. > > AP) In 1997, Csanyi and his colleagues tested 28 dogs of various ages, > breeds, and closeness to their owners, to see if they could learn to > obtain > cold cuts on the other side of a fence by pulling on the handles of dishes > while their owners were present. Dogs with a close relationship to their > owners fared worse than outdoor dogs. But when the dogs' owners were > allowed > to give the animals verbal permission, the gap between the groups > vanished. > > Since then, Csanyi's team has demonstrated just how much dogs can > accomplish > by paying attention to people. In one classic experiment on dogs' use of > human visual cues, food is hidden in one of several scent-proof > containers. > The animal is allowed to choose only one. > > Beforehand, the experimenter signals the correct choice by staring, > nodding, > or pointing at it. Chimpanzees, humans' closest genetic relatives, have > always done poorly at this test. Dogs solved the problem immediately. > > Dogs also excel at imitating people. In one of the laboratories, graduate > student Zsofia Viranyi demonstrates with Todor, an enthusiastic little > mutt. > Todor sits attentively as Ms. Viranyi spins around in a circle and comes > to > a stop. "Csinal," she says. ("You do it!") Todor does a little 360 on the > tiled floor and lets out an enthusiastic bark. He easily imitates > Viranyi's > bow, lifting of an arm, and other tasks. > > The team found that some dogs can even imitate previously unseen actions > performed by a person they haven't had close contact with. Other dogs > learned how to operate a simple ball-dispensing machine by watching people > use it. > > "We thought it would be very difficult for dogs to imitate humans," Csanyi > says, Chimps have great difficulty doing so, even with their larger > brains. > "But it turns out [dogs] love to do it. This is not a little thing, > because > they must pay attention to the person's actions, remember them, and then > apply them to their own body." > > Dogs' unusual ability and motivation to observe, imitate, and communicate > with people appears to be with them from birth. Two years ago, Csanyi's > graduate students were given either a puppy or a wolf cub to raise. They > fed > the animals by hand, coddling and doting on them. > > At five weeks, each cub was placed in a room containing an adult and the > student who had raised the cub. Both sat motionless. But while the wolf > cubs > merely sniffed both humans before climbing into the student's lap to > sleep, > the puppies yipped at their caregivers, licking their hands and trying to > establish contact. > > Three months later, the canines were given the opportunity to try to > remove > a piece of meat from under a cage by pulling on a rope in the presence of > their caregiver. Dogs and wolves both mastered this promptly. Then the > rope > was anchored, making it impossible to obtain the meat. The dogs tried a > couple of times, then turned to their masters for assistance or cues. The > wolves ignored their caregivers, yanking on the rope until exhausted. > > "The wolves ... were only interested in the meat," notes Miklosi. "The > dogs > were of course interested in the meat, but knew that one way to get it > might > be to figure out what the human wants them to do." > > To Csanyi, this proves that dogs have acquired an innate ability to pay > attention to people, and thus to communicate and work with them. This is a > skill that wolves don't assume even when raised from birth to learn it. > > Dogs are "very motivated to cooperate with and behave like people," says > Csanyi. "That's why dogs can do things no other animal can do." > > > By Colin Woodard ©Copyright 2005 The Christian Science Monitor. All rights > reserved. > > > Kayce Cover Syn Alia Training Systems http://www.synalia.com From: IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" "Good Dog Behaviour Consultants" 29-OCT-2005 16:05:55.36 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Thank you for your honest appraisal of static pulse collars. Like you I too thought they were a bad idea untill I actually used them. You are brave to come out and say so because now you are likely to cop a lot of flack like I have. We are all guilty of anthromorphising because we are human after all and can never stop doing that altogether. I think the barking-excitement loop is real, and I further think that part of the success of static pulse collars is that it provides discipline (fair and consistent) which dogs actually crave. Like a naughty child with no boundaries they appreciate boundaries. But we humans with our middle class ideals never really seem to get over the anthropomorphising and tend to regard dogs as humans in a dog suit, almost no matter how much education we have and how hard we try not to. Jackie Perkins BVSc hons MACVSc (animal behaviour) BA Veterinary Behaviour Consultant ----- Original Message ----- From: Greg & Jackie To: gooddog@dodo.com.au Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 11:50 AM Subject: FW: Barking problem was (no subject) -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] Sent: Saturday, October 29, 2005 11:42 AM To: SeanSeanl@aol.com; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Barking problem was (no subject) He very well may pass these behaviors on to the new puppy. Please check the archives for suggestions; there have been many extensive debates on this subject. I am not an expert on animal behavior and I am very concerned about animal happiness and welfare but I have to say that I have been favorable impressed by the results of shock collars. In a few barks the dogs I have seen learn that is not what they want to do, then the dog learns to calm itself down and becomes happy, quiet and friendly. Excessive barking, to me, seems to be part of a behavioral cycle in which a dog works himself into a tantrum that he does not know how to calm down from. Break the cycle and more healthy behaviors can take over. The dogs I have seen stopped barking immediately and did not need the collars turned on after a few days. I should say that I was vehemently opposed to shock colors until I saw them work. I should say that citronella collars have been suggested as a humane alternative to shock collars. I think this is probably a bad idea. We are anthropomorphizing what constitutes humane treatment. Citrus oil is highly toxic to most non-primates and probably smells extremely bad to them (think how a rotting corpse smells to us). It lingers much longer than a shock does, could cause gagging and choking, and does not give the same easily understandable immediate short feedback that a shock does. Further a dogs sense of smell is 250 million times better than a humans. Yes, a citronella collar would be nicer to a human than a shock collar. In fact I would find it pleasing. To a dog I suspect citronella is somewhere between horrific and traumatic but the fact is we don't know. The other thing that you can do for the dog is to provide it with things to do. I think boredom accentuates loneliness, A playmate as you have done is a very good idea, but the dog is never going to appreciate these distractions unless it gets out of its behavioral rut. Michael Michalchik From: IN%"margory@rcn.com" "margory cohen" 29-OCT-2005 16:41:31.95 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: barking Boxer I don't usually reply in email lists to unsigned posts; however - before this goes off in a lot other discussion: 1. You need to sign up with a good trainer. See www.dogpro.org for somebody near you. 2. Yes, despite some contemporary popular writing to the contrary, dogs do learn from each other. 3. I'd open up some of those closed doors. Rather than labeling behaviour as something it may or not be, I would think including the dog in interactive activity with you will go a lot further for the dog. It's important to teach your dogs so they know what you want and to do so fairly and honestly and with a real commitment. -margory cohen San Francisco ----- Original Message ----- From: SeanSeanl@aol.com To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Friday, October 28, 2005 6:02 PM Subject: (no subject) I have a 2 1/2 year old male boxer who barks constantly at the same times of the day. I feel it is seperation anxiety however I'm unsure. When we leave him outside (large yard with screened lani) during the day or at night while we are home he barks and jumps on the sliding glass doors. We've tried closing and leaving the blinds open but he continues to bark and jump. At night he sleeps in the living room (on a nice comfortable bed) but he still barks, jumps and scratches at our closed bedroom door. The odd part is during the evening or night he can be inside and my husband can be in our bedroom with the door closed while I am in the computer room with the door closed and he doesn't bark or scratch at the doors. Two months ago we had an older boxer (his big bro) pass away. I know this has had serious effect him, however his barking and jumping at doors has always been an issue! Recently, we have added a new addition to our family (female german shepard). However, he still exhibits the same behaviors and we're concerned he will pass these behaviors onto the new puppy. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Anti-Virus. Version: 7.0.344 / Virus Database: 267.12.5/149 - Release Date: 10/25/2005 From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 29-OCT-2005 17:52:00.85 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Hi, A friend of mine has used a bark collar for a highly reactive dog and it does calm him down. She is delighted with it. However, the dog who wears it lives his life in a paddock on his own because he is unreliable with dogs and people and his owner can't bear to euthanaise him. He has fairly good reason to bark, don't you think? So, like others I was very concerned to read the instant suggestion of a bark collar which address symptoms, not causes. Perhaps the boxer needs more, exercise, training, company etc. Surely those are the areas to address first? There are numerous adverts for 'remote training collars' and I detest the implication that it should be up to a collar to train a dog. They'll shut it up but if it still doesn't get walked or trained or have any company, how has that dog benefitted? JMO Diana ----- Original Message ----- From: Good Dog Behaviour Consultants Thank you for your honest appraisal of static pulse collars. Like you I too thought they were a bad idea untill I actually used them. You are brave to come out and say so because now you are likely to cop a lot of flack like I have. We are all guilty of anthromorphising because we are human after all and can never stop doing that altogether. I think the barking-excitement loop is real, and I further think that part of the success of static pulse collars is that it provides discipline (fair and consistent) which dogs actually crave. From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 29-OCT-2005 18:18:58.26 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: the possibility of long lasting improvements from short interventions Hi Kayce, Many thanks for your reply. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kayce Cover" > That is certainly a reason. But it takes a lot longer to teach the person > to teach this way than it does to teach the dog, or a person to handle the > trained dog. This was a lightbulb moment for me :). One of the huge battles as a trainer is that you are teaching LEARNERS to teach. I always tell my people this so they feel better about their struggles, but the reality is that this means they struggle to 'get' the behaviour or don't notice it so the correct behaviour isn't reinforced very much at all. I rarely actually train other people's dogs but last year I babysat a 5 mo Rhodesian Ridgeback pup for a week. He was a wildcat. He couldn't be handled without biting and drawing blood and he had no manners at all. They were desperate and I didn't realise how bad he was until he actually arrived. By the time he left he was wonderful 'with us'. However the moment his owners arrived he leaped all over the woman and grabbed at her clothing. I felt very depressed that all my hard work had failed so miserably. BUT.... they did listen to my suggestions and although they didn't follow them to the letter he did continue to improve (much to my surprise). Apparently John Rogerson uses this approach too. He trains, the owners watch, then the owners train. Thanks again Kayce Diana From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 29-OCT-2005 18:49:47.53 To: IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) In a message dated 10/29/2005 3:05:53 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, gooddog@dodo.com.au writes: Thank you for your honest appraisal of static pulse collars. Like you I too thought they were a bad idea untill I actually used them. You are brave to come out and say so because now you are likely to cop a lot of flack like I have. We are all guilty of anthromorphising because we are human after all and can never stop doing that altogether. I think the barking-excitement loop is real, and I further think that part of the success of static pulse collars is that it provides discipline (fair and consistent) which dogs actually crave. Like a naughty child with no boundaries they appreciate boundaries. But we humans with our middle class ideals never really seem to get over the anthropomorphising and tend to regard dogs as humans in a dog suit, almost no matter how much education we have and how hard we try not to. Jackie Perkins BVSc hons MACVSc (animal behaviour) BA Veterinary Behaviour Consultant Your comment on discipline craving reminded me of a couple of things. I had a friend that was a bit of a redneck dunce, but he had spent his childhood around big guard dogs and had learned how to deal with them to his satisfaction. Mainly pit bulls, rottweillers, and other penis enlargement dogs. I did and still disagree with a lot of his ideas and attitudes but watching his approach to life definitely challenged my perspective. One of the things he had learned was that when a dog looks you in the eye it is challenging you and you need to assert your dominance. The way he would do that would be to grab the dogs snout and face and hold it down til it stopped struggling. I was amazed that he didn't get bit. Well he got a girlfriend that had a sheltie that was pretty misbehaved. All over the place, constantly getting into things an going where it wasn't supposed to be. It even had some house training problems. His girlfriend had no skill at any sort of discipline. When he first met the dog the dog looked him in the eye. He misinterpreted this as a challenge and did his usual thing with the dog. Well, the dog never did learn not to meet his gaze. In fact I think that as time went on it paid more and more attention to his gaze. After a few weeks I met his girlfriend and was over at her house with him. I saw what was going on and explained that shepherd were bred for eye-contact with the master. I figured since shelties looked like a collie that they we probably shepherd derived and still had the eye trait. He stopped disciplining the dog for this, but I noticed also that this dog LOVED him. Despite the fact that the girlfriend had the dog for several years, he was clearly the person the dog was attached to. Not only did the dog only pay attention to him when he was around. The dog followed him everywhere. It whined when he left. I leapt for joy when he returned and interestingly the dogs general behavior improved enormously even on issues he had never disciplined the dog about. It seemed to me like the dog had learned what the girlfriend didn't want him to do, but never cared about her opinion. Now, that the dog had a reason to follow rules, it obeyed those he knew about. At the time I joked that I guess one trip to prison for stealing could make you obey jaywalking laws too. I had had no experience with dogs up to this point, but this experience did make me think about them. I did not and still do not think this is a great lesson for dealing with children. It made it clear to me that dogs definitely have their own peculiar psychology. I think they are more pack animals than humans or most other animals are. It seems to me that their whole social psychology is built around the idea that there should be an alpha. You love, respect, obey that leader of the pack and without a leader you a only half a dog, running on minimal instinct drives and whims. With children I think the story is different and more complex. A disciplined childhood is preferable to a negligent, haphazard or permissive one, but I don't think that establishment of a power structure is the key factor. I do have a son, now 12, who is extremely well behaved (by everyone's assessment), successfully and conscientious. I have never used corporal punishment, very rarely verbal reprimands or negative feedback and my rules are not written in stone or incontrovertible. Humans I believe, including children are first and foremost reasoning animals, and since my son was very small I treated him with kindness, respect and explained everything to him as best I could. What I think is critical is involvement, feedback and role modeling. I let him understand consequences. I have taught him the importance of other people feelings and other virtues. When he makes a mistake, I have taught him the thing to do is to make amends and plan for it not happening again. I am very careful not to impose arbitrary or excessive rules and I have never told him do it just because I say so. It is more work this way, but the results have been excellent and I feel like I have helped create a human-being who's desire to do right is not driven by rules, fear and external forces but who knows that goodness is rational, reasonable and a necessary part of leading a good life. He knows how to follow rules but I feel that he is the type of person that will stand up to injustice too. He knows he can argue with me if I make a mistake but he also knows to admit when he is wrong. In some ways I think he is already wiser than me. If the single psychological rule for dogs is that they need a master, I would say that the single psychological rule for kids is that they want someone to help them be a good successful person. A subtle but important difference. Unlike dogs, children are heading towards a life of autonomy and self-direction in maturity. They need reason, self-esteem, example and a sense of how the world works. Children are eager to please, provided that life has not taught them that trying to please is futile, because their survival depends on learning from the people around them. I would be a hypocrite to say that my experience with my child represents what would work for all children. It is conceivably that you just can't get through to some children without harshness and absolute rigor, but I do tutor kids a lot and my experience with them indicates that harsh parenting usually represents a failure of imagination, communication skills and patience on the part of the parents. Sincerely, Michael From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 29-OCT-2005 21:52:33.62 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: More ----- Original Message ----- From: "Kayce Cover" Hi again, I have 'got' that YOU teach the animal some behaviours prompted by targets (visual signals) which are without doubt going to be learned quicker than verbal cues. Others then use those visual signals, bridge and reinforce in future. I imagine behaviours break down to some extent but IME people are often satisfied with 'good enough' especially if it's still better than before. Just as my RR people were. > Hmmm... I was told otherwise by a number of owners, some with tears in > their eyes. However, the main purpose of the seminars is to train owners, > not dogs. Nonetheless, we have some very dramatic breakthroughs with > dogs, in the seminar context. I collect a lot of video in order to > collect and review these breakthroughs as I have time. Right now, I spend > a lot more time training than reviewing! Now this is different. In the seminars you are training the owners NOT the animals. Is this why the NZ people I spoke to didn't get breakthroughs or see breakthroughs? Because it was the OWNERS training and not you? > > Clare, the difference that I see between animals and people would be the > > level of motivation and self control. We cannot say that a horse 'wants' > > to > > overcome their phobia or 'believes' they can do it. 'Choosing' to do it > > when > > all the circumstances surrounding it stay the same as before, seem even > > more > > unlikely. > > They certainly often do choose it. In fact, Jan Westby, an accomplished > clicker trainer, just relayed a case of a jrt who found relaxation > difficult, who then came up to her and solicited help in the conditioned > relaxation and put himself into the relaxed down, right at her side. We > often see an animal encounter a former trigger, yawn and mouth, turn to > the owner, and return to their side, leaning into them, relaxing their > faces and starting the relaxation process. I have reread the perception modification info and there is some excellent stuff. What I do notice though is the importance of the animal being able to focus on the trainer and 'seek support' if you like. What happens in situations where the owner is the cause of the problem? When that animal lives in a stressed out household surrounded by triggers and the owner will not change their behaviour? Does the animal then calm itself in isolation? > > Recent discussions with a skilled animal trainer with a fear aggressive > > dog > > showed that the dog had made huge progress but it had taken years in > > skilled > > hands and the owner did not consider the dog to be completely 'cured' or > > that a 'cure' was possible. He would never be a 'normal' dog because his > > background was so 'abnormal'. > > I cannot tell you how many dogs of this description I have seen become > absolutely trustworthy in the most rigorous test we can devise, regardless > of history. In fact, I don't even ask about history. Again, what if the dog had no one to focus on to help calm itself? It was unsupported and exposed to a trigger? > > It worries me that people may see improvements in their animals and then > > take 'risks' because they believe them to be 'cured'. I've seen people do > > this and it aint pretty. Kayce writes as if this is unlikely to happen and > > it does seem too magical given what every other trainer I've spoken to > > says. > > Well, owners certainly do take huge risks. And I advise against it. No > one is more surprized than I at how durable the results are. Ironically, > I am an extremely cautious and methodical trainer. I am just fast and > efficient. I believe you are cautious, methodical, fast and efficient. How 'durable' behavioural changes are continues to worry me, especially in the presence of well meaning but ineffective owners/ trainers, or in the absence of any trainers at all. Thanks again Diana From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 30-OCT-2005 14:23:15.54 To: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: the possibility of long lasting improvements from short interventions Diana, , would agree with > what Clare wrote about the importance of continued correct training/ > handling procedures. I should have qualified my remarks. If the owner/handler caused the interference, then the handler must be instructed in correct procedures. This is not always the case. My sister's draft mare is an example. Trained as a logging horse by a professional, she was sold to a man working with her trainer on a logging job. He was not greatly experienced with horses but did ok while on the job. The problems started after the job ended and he went to work her alone. He had a sharp temper and not too much rapport with the horse. He'd managed to control himself on the job but cut loose when no boss was there to fire him. She balked at one point, he kicked her, seen by a mutual friend who reported it to my sister and her husband before they bought the mare. Mare kicked, got a hoof caught in the single tree, thrashed loose but bolted in panic, took down a barb wire fence for a quarter mile that he had to put back up. To make a long story short, they had no trust in each other. Was sold for canner price. They worked with Tellington Jones TEAM exercises and sensible handling with no drama. The mare calmed down, learned that she'd be treated fairly and could trust again. About 2 months after being with them, a neighbor who had lamented this mare's mistreatment saw her being worked in old borrowed harness with a bit tied to a halter and rope lines--harness was on order and hauling a dead willow down the road for them. The dead tree had a lot of branches and was very noisy. He was delighted to see her back to her old self. After the initial retraining, nothing further was needed. But had she staid with the owner who messed her up, he would have had to change. Star's story is similar, the owners didn't cause the problem, nor did the people at Woodgreen's rescue group. Once Star knew how to handle the situation, normal handling that didn't repeat the initial traumatic vet procedure was all that was needed. In a similar manner, one pup I was raising had a couple of unpleasant experiences in one particular room. She bumped an adult dog who reprimanded her and then later I tripped over her just as she came through the door. Understandably she disliked that room. I set up some situations where there were no other dogs and I was not so clumsy and had something really worth going into the room for, liver! She learned quickly that going in and out of the room and exploring it could be worth risking my clumsiness. When that was solid, I added in another puppy and adult dog and she took the risk. No further problems with that room. > However since you maintain that effects can be permanent regardless of > handling/ training I'll need to read your site again and investigate more > thoroughly. > > Clare, the difference that I see between animals and people would be the > level of motivation and self control. We cannot say that a horse 'wants' > to > overcome their phobia or 'believes' they can do it. 'Choosing' to do it > when > all the circumstances surrounding it stay the same as before, seem even > more > unlikely. I disagree. I can't think of any animal that would not want to learn how to deal with fear. Showing them a better way and giving them experiences equal to their current ability to succeed builds the mentation needed to deal with the fear. In watching puppies and kittens grow, this is easy to see. As they learn to fear losing their balance, they avoid paths that are beyond their current ability. As they grow, they try it again and find they can do it. Learning how to deal with fearful situations is a basic survival skill. If a horse really wants water, food, safety or perhaps a chance to breed, it will be motivated much more to get past a fearful object than if it is comfortable. Setting up situations where the subject, human or non human, is likely to want to change is standard motivation whether it be NLP change work or teaching a horse to trust again. Animals make choices routinely. Watching a puppy whose been snapped at by an adult skid to a stop, and look for a path that takes it safely around the adult's do not enter zone is watching a choice in progress. The pup could keep on a collision course, leave, offer supplicating behaviors like crawling up while lip licking to ask for safe passage or detour widely enough to stay clear of the adult's threshold distance. A young dog that is going through the upstart stage may choose to try to snap at an adult that if formerly acquiesced to. If it gets another convincing round of disciplinary snaps, it might well choose more wisely the next time. As full maturity hits, it may again challenge the adult with different results. For its internal motivation, social climbing, it may result in an elevation in status above the dog it formerly deferred to. The best choice for its goal. If the pup is trying this upstart behavior with its owner, it needs to be convinced that this is poor choice. > Recent discussions with a skilled animal trainer with a fear aggressive > dog > showed that the dog had made huge progress but it had taken years in > skilled > hands and the owner did not consider the dog to be completely 'cured' or > that a 'cure' was possible. He would never be a 'normal' dog because his > background was so 'abnormal'. If it took years, I don't think the handler was skilled in what the dog needed. Diet, levels of stimulation and other environmental factors may be at work. Description of a Springer spaniel with fear based aggression needing all of the above for PM and relaxation to work is on the bridge and target list. This dog is probably not 'normal'. Springers have a high incidence of fear and aggression. However, environmental factors may trigger problems in some springers that would do fine in less stimulating situations. Some horses do fine on pasture with grass and may develop stable vices when stalled a good portion of the day and fed high protein dense feed. That requires less chewing, less bulk and time to eat and no walking head down from place to place to eat. That horse might need a lot of exercise and sensory enrichment to tolerate the 'easy' barn living. If someone breaks a leg, a cast is needed before starting physical therapy. But learning to walk on crutches in the meantime will help prevent bone loss and muscle atrophy in the sound leg. In a similar manner, the fearful Springer benefited from very small successes in the reduced level of stimulation and needed the lower level of stimulation to let his overstressed body calm down. > It worries me that people may see improvements in their animals and then > take 'risks' because they believe them to be 'cured'. I've seen people do > this and it aint pretty. Kayce writes as if this is unlikely to happen and > it does seem too magical given what every other trainer I've spoken to > says. Animals will take the best choice they know how. Kayce gives them a better how in a way that they can understand quickly. Like students who learn how to spell using the NLP method that uses more visuals than auditory, a better way to learn makes a huge difference. It's out of the box thinking. The animal may not have been broken but did not have a very good 'how'. Once taught a good choice, they'll take it as long as it is the best choice. If something else comes up like breeding behaviors, other factors might need to be added. That is another piece of additional work, not a failure of the basic work. The concept of 'cured' is a trap. No animal is ever bomb proof. You may not have ever seen the animal with a big enough bomb. Be careful about going into situations you have not trained for. Kayce's work with sea mammals at the national zoo had extensive practice with many potential bombs that the animals learned to deal with capably and reliably. Clare From: IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" "Good Dog Behaviour Consultants" 30-OCT-2005 17:02:32.27 To: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg & Jackie" To: Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:37 AM Subject: FW: Barking problem was (no subject) Hi, The bark collar should be used concurrent with offers of desirable alternate behaviours eg raw bones for the lazy owner. However reasons are overrated eg as Katherine Houpt says, that the child poked the dog with a pencil does not excuse the dog for attacking. Murderers have reasons too...does that make it OK to do things that negatively impact the health of others? The dog is still better off in my view because it gets to live where the choice for barking which can not be stopped is normally euthanasia. Many dogs appear to enjoy living in a paddock, especially dogs with an inpependent bent. I appreciate these are difficult issues. I firmly believe euthanasia and longevity ARE ethical issues. Jackie Perkins BVSc hons MACVSc (animal behaviour) Veterinary Behaviour Consultant -----Original Message----- From: Whitebirds [mailto:whitebird@xtra.co.nz] Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:49 AM Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) Hi, A friend of mine has used a bark collar for a highly reactive dog and it does calm him down. She is delighted with it. However, the dog who wears it lives his life in a paddock on his own because he is unreliable with dogs and people and his owner can't bear to euthanaise him. He has fairly good reason to bark, don't you think? So, like others I was very concerned to read the instant suggestion of a bark collar which address symptoms, not causes. Perhaps the boxer needs more, exercise, training, company etc. Surely those are the areas to address first? There are numerous adverts for 'remote training collars' and I detest the implication that it should be up to a collar to train a dog. They'll shut it up but if it still doesn't get walked or trained or have any company, how has that dog benefitted? JMO Diana ----- Original Message ----- From: Good Dog Behaviour Consultants Thank you for your honest appraisal of static pulse collars. Like you I too thought they were a bad idea untill I actually used them. You are brave to come out and say so because now you are likely to cop a lot of flack like I have. We are all guilty of anthromorphising because we are human after all and can never stop doing that altogether. I think the barking-excitement loop is real, and I further think that part of the success of static pulse collars is that it provides discipline (fair and consistent) which dogs actually crave. From: IN%"clager@c.dk" "Christina Lager" 31-OCT-2005 00:54:48.59 To: IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" "Good Dog Behaviour Consultants" CC: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Hi I just wanted to make some remarks to the subjects at hand Jackie argues that a dog should not bite even if poked with a pencil - and says that murderers have reasons too. I do not think you can make that connection - the dog that bites after being tormented by a child is not reacting as a murderer but in selfdefense - most countries do have laws for humans saying that it is ok to defend oneself against attackers. Even the nicest dog will defend itself if hurt bad enough - the parent that did not supervise and teach the child to treat the dog nicely are to blame. Not the dog. I have been asked twice to euthanise a dog because it had bitten a child - in both cases the dog had snapped at the child after having good reasons - in my eyes at least - one of the dogs had needles stuck in its neck the other had a lego (the toy brick) rammed so far into its ear that it required total anastesia to get it out. Both dogs have never before or after "misbehaved" towards humans. My point? There are sometimes excuses - find out what happened before judging. Regarding the pro and con of shockcollars I hold that you should treat the problem, not the symptoms. - the barking boxer is showing that he isn't happy - find out why and change that - just shocking him for barking, is like forcing a limping dog to walk on all 4 legs without finding out why he is limping. Luckily here in Denmark all electronic training devises that are attached to the dog are banned. The boxer case that started all this requires a visit from a good behaviour consultant to find out why the dog is barking and jumping on the door. My concern is: how much time is the owner and the dog together - what do they do together - is the dog mentally stimulated every day - try throwing the food bowl in the garbage can and let the dog find his food - hide it in the garden (at first letting him see what you are doing) use the rest as treat for training. And generally spending more time with the dog - just being together is important - why have a dog if you don't want him near you? let him in the house, put his basket near your favorit chair and let him be with his pack, not alone in the yard. I think it is evident that dogs learn from each other, and getting yet another active breed dog in the family will not be the solution alone.' best regards from Christina Lager DVM Denmark Good Dog Behaviour Consultants wrote: > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Greg & Jackie" > To: > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 5:37 AM > Subject: FW: Barking problem was (no subject) > > > Hi, > The bark collar should be used concurrent with offers of > desirable alternate > behaviours eg raw bones for the lazy owner. > However reasons are overrated eg as Katherine Houpt says, > that the child > poked the dog with a pencil does not excuse the dog for > attacking. Murderers > have reasons too...does that make it OK to do things that > negatively impact > the health of others? > The dog is still better off in my view because it gets to > live where the > choice for barking which can not be stopped is normally > euthanasia. Many > dogs appear to enjoy living in a paddock, especially dogs > with an > inpependent bent. > I appreciate these are difficult issues. I firmly believe > euthanasia and > longevity ARE ethical issues. > Jackie Perkins > BVSc hons MACVSc (animal behaviour) > Veterinary Behaviour Consultant > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Whitebirds [mailto:whitebird@xtra.co.nz] > Sent: Sunday, October 30, 2005 9:49 AM > Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) > > Hi, > > A friend of mine has used a bark collar for a highly > reactive dog and it > does calm him down. She is delighted with it. However, the > dog who wears it > lives his life in a paddock on his own because he is > unreliable with dogs > and people and his owner can't bear to euthanaise him. He > has fairly good > reason to bark, don't you think? > > So, like others I was very concerned to read the instant > suggestion of a > bark collar which address symptoms, not causes. > > Perhaps the boxer needs more, exercise, training, company > etc. > > Surely those are the areas to address first? > > There are numerous adverts for 'remote training collars' and > I detest the > implication that it should be up to a collar to train a dog. > They'll shut it > up but if it still doesn't get walked or trained or have any > company, how > has that dog benefitted? > > JMO > Diana > > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Good Dog Behaviour Consultants > > Thank you for your honest appraisal of static pulse collars. > Like you I too > thought they were a bad idea untill I actually used them. > You are brave to > come out and say so because now you are likely to cop a lot > of flack like I > have. > We are all guilty of anthromorphising because we are human > after all and can > never stop doing that altogether. I think the > barking-excitement loop is > real, and I further think that part of the success of static > pulse collars > is that it provides discipline (fair and consistent) which > dogs actually > crave. > > > > > > > > mvh Christina Lager From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 31-OCT-2005 03:48:40.43 To: IN%"clager@c.dk", IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" CC: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) In a message dated 10/30/2005 10:57:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, clager@c.dk writes: Jackie argues that a dog should not bite even if poked with a pencil - and says that murderers have reasons too. I do not think you can make that connection - the dog that bites after being tormented by a child is not reacting as a murderer but in selfdefense - most countries do have laws for humans saying that it is ok to defend oneself against attackers. Even the nicest dog will defend itself if hurt bad enough - the parent that did not supervise and teach the child to treat the dog nicely are to blame. Not the dog. You know I think this may quickly degenerate into one of those conversations where someone makes an absolutist statement in order to make a point and then other people pick out inevitable absurdities and force the person to defend straw men. I think it is pretty safe to say that everyone or nearly everyone here agrees that some behaviors are unacceptable in domestic animals and humans but that there are circumstances and settings in which such behaviors are excusable or inevitable. We may disagree about where exactly to draw the line, but arguing such things in the hypothetical is fruitless in a forum like this. This all reminds me of a somewhat unrelated topic. I had the privilege of owning ferrets for a few years and man, those are weird wonderful animals. My ferrets were both from Marshall's, which has a reputation of producing good natured animals, but these girls were good natured to the point of ridiculousness. They seemed to only have a capacity for two emotions, curiosity and playfulness. They had a lot of interaction with preschoolers because my son was that age, and damn they seemed to thrive on abuse that would have driven a human or dog to a breakdown. I was quite protective of them at first, but the more the preschoolers hounded, poked, dragged around and otherwise "abused" these little furry slinkys, the more entertained they seemed to be. Yeah they got tired and I did my best to make sure that they weren't crushed or broken, but there capacity to deal with rough and awkward play was quite superhuman and touching. One thing I was convinced of is this fearless little species is fully domesticated; there is no way they would survive in the wild. Michael From: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc." 31-OCT-2005 08:04:47.10 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Man's Best Friend Pretty Smart (AP story) Dogs: http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/10/26/tech/main981130.shtml Man's Best Friend Is Pretty Smart BUDAPEST, Hungary, Oct. 26, 2005 (AP) This story was written by Colin Woodard. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- At Eotvos Lorand University's Department of Ethology, visitors are usually greeted not by a security guard, but by a delegation of friendly mongrels, tails wagging. Dogs have the run of the place. They play in classrooms, visit faculty members in their offices, or nap in the laboratories. Animals here are no surprise - ethology is the zoological study of animal behavior - but the total lack of cages is. And why would there be, asks research fellow Adam Miklosi, who leads much of the research here into the cognitive abilities of man's best friend. "If you were studying human behavior, you wouldn't keep your subjects in a cage for 20 years and then ask them some questions?" he asks with a smile. "These are animals who've been brought up in a normal way, which allows us to see and understand them in their natural environment, which is the human environment." After a decade studying dogs in their human habitat, Mr. Miklosi and his colleagues have accumulated a body of evidence suggesting that dogs have far greater mental capabilities than scientists had thought. Dogs' smarts, it turns out, come out in their relationships with people. The implications of this research are more esoteric than the average dog owner may appreciate. The research doesn't exactly mean that dogs and their masters can enjoy Chaucer together, but it does mean scientists have reason to consider what dog-human communications may say about language skills development. Another implication is that dogs may make better cognitive study subjects than primates, which have been the focus of the field thus far. Until recently, domestication was thought to have dulled dogs' intelligence. Studies in the early 1980s showed that wolves, from which dogs probably descended, can unlock a gate after watching a human do it once, while dogs remained stumped after watching repeatedly. That never sat well with Vilmos Csanyi, the recently retired head of Mr. Miklosi's department. Mr. Csanyi, who had dogs of his own, suspected the dogs were awaiting permission to open the gate, that they regarded opening the gate as a violation of their master's rules. In 1997, Csanyi and his colleagues tested 28 dogs of various ages, breeds, and closeness to their owners, to see if they could learn to obtain cold cuts on the other side of a fence by pulling on the handles of dishes while their owners were present. Dogs with a close relationship to their owners fared worse than outdoor dogs. But when the dogs' owners were allowed to give the animals verbal permission, the gap between the groups vanished. Since then, Csanyi's team has demonstrated just how much dogs can accomplish by paying attention to people. In one classic experiment on dogs' use of human visual cues, food is hidden in one of several scent-proof containers. The animal is allowed to choose only one. Beforehand, the experimenter signals the correct choice by staring, nodding, or pointing at it. Chimpanzees, humans' closest genetic relatives, have always done poorly at this test. Dogs solved the problem immediately. Dogs also excel at imitating people. In one of the laboratories, graduate student Zsofia Viranyi demonstrates with Todor, an enthusiastic little mutt. Todor sits attentively as Ms. Viranyi spins around in a circle and comes to a stop. "Csinal," she says. ("You do it!") Todor does a little 360 on the tiled floor and lets out an enthusiastic bark. He easily imitates Viranyi's bow, lifting of an arm, and other tasks. The team found that some dogs can even imitate previously unseen actions performed by a person they haven't had close contact with. Other dogs learned how to operate a simple ball-dispensing machine by watching people use it. "We thought it would be very difficult for dogs to imitate humans," Csanyi says, Chimps have great difficulty doing so, even with their larger brains. "But it turns out [dogs] love to do it. This is not a little thing, because they must pay attention to the person's actions, remember them, and then apply them to their own body." Dogs' unusual ability and motivation to observe, imitate, and communicate with people appears to be with them from birth. Two years ago, Csanyi's graduate students were given either a puppy or a wolf cub to raise. They fed the animals by hand, coddling and doting on them. At five weeks, each cub was placed in a room containing an adult and the student who had raised the cub. Both sat motionless. But while the wolf cubs merely sniffed both humans before climbing into the student's lap to sleep, the puppies yipped at their caregivers, licking their hands and trying to establish contact. Three months later, the canines were given the opportunity to try to remove a piece of meat from under a cage by pulling on a rope in the presence of their caregiver. Dogs and wolves both mastered this promptly. Then the rope was anchored, making it impossible to obtain the meat. The dogs tried a couple of times, then turned to their masters for assistance or cues. The wolves ignored their caregivers, yanking on the rope until exhausted. "The wolves ... were only interested in the meat," notes Miklosi. "The dogs were of course interested in the meat, but knew that one way to get it might be to figure out what the human wants them to do." To Csanyi, this proves that dogs have acquired an innate ability to pay attention to people, and thus to communicate and work with them. This is a skill that wolves don't assume even when raised from birth to learn it. Dogs are "very motivated to cooperate with and behave like people," says Csanyi. "That's why dogs can do things no other animal can do." From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 31-OCT-2005 09:27:52.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Christina Lager wrote: > Regarding the pro and con of shockcollars I hold that you should treat the problem, not the symptoms. - the barking boxer is showing that he isn't happy - find out why and change that - just shocking him for barking, is like forcing a limping dog to walk on all 4 legs without finding out why he is limping. All quite true - so far as it goes. > Luckily here in Denmark all electronic training devises that are attached to the dog are banned. I don't know that "luckily" is the right word. Such devices can be and often are abused (there is no training device - including "positive reinforcement" - that cannot be abused) but in the right hands they can be extremely useful in the proper training e.g. of working dogs. They must, of course, be understood as a way of communicating with the dog, not as a means of punishment or intimidation. That stereotype seems hard to get rid of. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 31-OCT-2005 09:38:06.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) I wonder if Steve Lindsay is still on this list. His last volume in his book series has an entire chapter devoted to the correct use and effectiveness of e collars. It debunks a lot of the myths in a careful, methodical manner. Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burchard" To: "Applied Ethology list" Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:24 AM Subject: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) > Christina Lager wrote: > >> Regarding the pro and con of shockcollars I hold that you should treat >> the > problem, not the symptoms. - the barking boxer is showing that he isn't > happy - find out why and change that - just shocking him for barking, is > like forcing a limping dog to walk on all 4 legs without finding out why > he > is limping. > > All quite true - so far as it goes. > >> Luckily here in Denmark all electronic training devises that are attached > to the dog are banned. > > I don't know that "luckily" is the right word. Such devices can be and > often are abused (there is no training device - including "positive > reinforcement" - that cannot be abused) but in the right hands they can be > extremely useful in the proper training e.g. of working dogs. They must, > of > course, be understood as a way of communicating with the dog, not as a > means > of punishment or intimidation. That stereotype seems hard to get rid of. > > John > -- > Dr. John Burchard > Tepe Gawra Salukis > saluqi@ix.netcom.com > http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ > > From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 31-OCT-2005 10:28:21.46 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Proceedings from the 5th International Veterinary Behavior Meeting Below is information for ordering copies of the Proceedings from the 5th International Veterinary Behaviour Meeting that took place in Minneapolis in July 2005. For those living in the United States or Canada the book can be ordered at 1-800-247-6553. I also have been provided a list of international representatives for specific areas below. Customers can contact their local representative. INTERNATIONAL SALES CONTACTS Africa, Latin & South America, India - Cranbury International Tel. 802-223-6565; eatkin@cranburyinternational.com Australia & New Zealand - Footprint Books Pty Ltd. Tel. (+61) 02 9997-3973; sales@footprint.com Canada - Scholarly Book Services, Inc. Tel. 1-800-847-9736; Customerservice@sbookscan.com Southwest Asia, Korea, China, Singapore, Thailand, Taiwan - APAC Publishers Tel. +65 6844 7333; sgohapac@singnet.com.sg Japan - United Publishers Services Limited; Tel. (03) 3291 4541 UK, Europe, Israel, Middle East - The Eurospan Group Tel. +44 (0) 20 7240 0856; info@eurospan.com If this will not work, request the book by sending an email (without payment information) to orders@bookmasters.com Debra F. Horwitz, DVM DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations 11469 Olive Blvd. #254 St. Louis, MO 63141-7108 Phone and fax: 314-567-4131 e-mail: DebHdvm@aol.com From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 31-OCT-2005 10:41:10.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: psychoneuroimmunology Suggestions for a good introductory, scientific text on this topic are welcome. Preferably something more accessible than Ader's 1000 page 300 dollar classic... Regards, Anna Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics http://www.ibmc.up.pt/group.php?area=4&grupo=18 Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"PSimonet@PeTalk.org" "Trisha Simonet" 31-OCT-2005 11:13:01.37 To: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Proceedings from the 5th International Veterinary Behavior Meeting Hello, Is there a table of contents available for the proceedings? I would like to know who and what has been contributed before making a purchase. Thank you, Trisha Patricia Simonet, PhD Cognitive Ethologist & Animal Behaviorist P.O. Box 19429 Spokane, WA 99219 www.petalk.org & laughing-dog.org psimonet@petalk.org (509) 456-8970 On Oct 31, 2005, at 8:04 AM, DebHdvm@aol.com wrote: > Below is information for ordering copies of the Proceedings from > the 5th International Veterinary Behaviour Meeting that took place > in Minneapolis in July 2005. > > For those living in the United States or Canada the book can be > ordered at 1-800-247-6553. > > I also have been provided a list of international representatives > for specific > areas below. Customers can contact their local representative. > > > INTERNATIONAL SALES CONTACTS > > Africa, Latin & South America, India - Cranbury International > Tel. 802-223-6565; eatkin@cranburyinternational.com > > Australia & New Zealand - Footprint Books Pty Ltd. > Tel. (+61) 02 9997-3973; sales@footprint.com > > Canada - Scholarly Book Services, Inc. > Tel. 1-800-847-9736; Customerservice@sbookscan.com > > Southwest Asia, Korea, China, Singapore, Thailand, Taiwan > - APAC Publishers > Tel. +65 6844 7333; sgohapac@singnet.com.sg > > Japan - United Publishers Services Limited; Tel. (03) 3291 4541 > > UK, Europe, Israel, Middle East - The Eurospan Group > Tel. +44 (0) 20 7240 0856; info@eurospan.com > > > If this will not work, request the book by sending an email (without > payment information) to orders@bookmasters.com > > Debra F. Horwitz, DVM DACVB > Veterinary Behavior Consultations > 11469 Olive Blvd. #254 > St. Louis, MO 63141-7108 > Phone and fax: 314-567-4131 > e-mail: DebHdvm@aol.com From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 31-OCT-2005 11:57:51.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burchard" > I don't know that "luckily" is the right word. Such devices can be and > often are abused (there is no training device - including "positive > reinforcement" - that cannot be abused) but in the right hands they can be > extremely useful in the proper training e.g. of working dogs. They must, of > course, be understood as a way of communicating with the dog, not as a means > of punishment or intimidation. That stereotype seems hard to get rid of. Hi John, I agree that a skilled trainer (in any method) can do an effective job. However electronic collars are widely advertised and available for John Q Public. As I said earlier they are advertised as remote training collars and sold to anyone with the money to buy. They ARE a means of PUNISHMENT or its cousin, R-. That is exactly what they are. Cheers Diana From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 31-OCT-2005 13:38:07.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) > They ARE a means of PUNISHMENT or its cousin, R-. That is exactly what > they > are. And of course therefore evil, have no redeeming qualities and are only used by vile people who want to buy an expensive way to torture dogs. Or they are lazy, incompetent trainers taking the easy way out. Hmm, a whole lot of hunting dogs are being trained with them, didn't realize those trainers fit the above description. Those who do want truly to torture a dog can use a belt far more cheaply. You may not have heard of the vibration mode collars that can be used with deaf dogs and as a conditioned +R or warning plus the collars that have one or more tones to be condition's as +R praise tones or -R warning tones. The new models have low setting so low most people can't feel them. The sensation is detectable but not necessarily unpleasant. -R doesn't have to be unpleasant. One could consider that a stream of intermediate bridges stopping because the animal erred is -P, the chance for reward has been removed. Most horse training is based on -R, I don't hear of anyone trying to ban bridles, bits, lunge whips, dressage whips and dressage spurs, in particular the latter 2 are 'aids' that give subtle and precise cues. In the book on NLP with horses, one dressage master was quoted as saying use your crop! the horse loves it! he didn't mean raising welts on the horse but that giving the horse more and precise information you were helping the horse and paying attention. All the above can be used in a way to create permanent mental damage and at least temporary pain. The old cowboy bronco breaking is out of favor, can't think of anyone who has even seen it done. I'll see if I can find the link showing a malinois performing some very nice obedience work with a very happy face. This subject gets so silly when it gets across the board condemnation from people who have never used one or seen one used well. Again, Steve Lindsay's chapter should answer all concerns over the humane use of e collars as an effective teaching tool. Clare From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 31-OCT-2005 13:45:40.43 To: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) What does any of this have to do with ethology? Ethology is not about dog training with abusive devices. CeAnn Clare Lewandowski wrote: > > They ARE a means of PUNISHMENT or its cousin, R-. That is exactly what > they > are. And of course therefore evil, have no redeeming qualities and are only used by vile people who want to buy an expensive way to torture dogs. Or they are lazy, incompetent trainers taking the easy way out. Hmm, a whole lot of hunting dogs are being trained with them, didn't realize those trainers fit the above description. Those who do want truly to torture a dog can use a belt far more cheaply. You may not have heard of the vibration mode collars that can be used with deaf dogs and as a conditioned +R or warning plus the collars that have one or more tones to be condition's as +R praise tones or -R warning tones. The new models have low setting so low most people can't feel them. The sensation is detectable but not necessarily unpleasant. -R doesn't have to be unpleasant. One could consider that a stream of intermediate bridges stopping because the animal erred is -P, the chance for reward has been removed. Most horse training is based on -R, I don't hear of anyone trying to ban bridles, bits, lunge whips, dressage whips and dressage spurs, in particular the latter 2 are 'aids' that give subtle and precise cues. In the book on NLP with horses, one dressage master was quoted as saying use your crop! the horse loves it! he didn't mean raising welts on the horse but that giving the horse more and precise information you were helping the horse and paying attention. All the above can be used in a way to create permanent mental damage and at least temporary pain. The old cowboy bronco breaking is out of favor, can't think of anyone who has even seen it done. I'll see if I can find the link showing a malinois performing some very nice obedience work with a very happy face. This subject gets so silly when it gets across the board condemnation from people who have never used one or seen one used well. Again, Steve Lindsay's chapter should answer all concerns over the humane use of e collars as an effective teaching tool. Clare CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 31-OCT-2005 13:52:37.06 To: IN%"PSimonet@PeTalk.org" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Proceedings from the 5th International Veterinary Behavior Meeting In a message dated 10/31/2005 11:14:43 A.M. Central Standard Time, PSimonet@PeTalk.org writes: Is there a table of contents available for the proceedings? I would like to know who and what has been contributed before making a purchase. I do not have an electronic copy of the table of contents available, sorry. Debbie Debra F. Horwitz, DVM DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations 11469 Olive Blvd. #254 St. Louis, MO 63141-7108 Phone and fax: 314-567-4131 e-mail: DebHdvm@aol.com From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 31-OCT-2005 14:22:38.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) ----- Original Message ----- From: "Clare Lewandowski" > > They ARE a means of PUNISHMENT or its cousin, R-. That is exactly what > > they are. > And of course therefore evil, have no redeeming qualities and are only used > by vile people who want to buy an expensive way to torture dogs. Interesting response. I looked through my post and nowhere did I say that. I believe you are reacting to what you think I was thinking rather than what I wrote. That's unhelpful. The previous post referred to them as 'communication' rather than a means of punishment or intimidation. I said that in fact they are a means of punishment or R-. That's all I said. I am aware that some vibrating collars are used for deaf dogs. I didn't think that was the context of the discussion I thought it was e collars for 'working' dogs. > they are > lazy, incompetent trainers taking the easy way out. I didn't say that. I said - However electronic collars are widely advertised and available for John Q Public. As I said earlier they are advertised as remote training collars and sold to anyone with the money to buy. IMO this means that people with no training skill have access to them to use as and when they see fit. > Hmm, a whole lot of > hunting dogs are being trained with them, didn't realize those trainers fit > the above description. I also said: I agree that a skilled trainer (in any method) can do an effective job. Those who do want truly to torture a dog can use a > belt far more cheaply. I didn't mention torture anywhere. > This subject gets so silly when it gets across the board condemnation from > people who have never used one or seen one used well. Again, Steve Lindsay's > chapter should answer all concerns over the humane use of e collars as an > effective teaching tool. It gets just as silly when people interpret condemnation and a whole lot of other stuff when none was expressed. Cheers Diana From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 31-OCT-2005 15:04:20.73 To: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) No, you miss my point. Training an animal by using a device that causes them pain, is not ethology. I have 18 years experience training wolves and coyotes using ethological techniques, which do not include causing pain to the animal in any way. I don't know anything about horses. CeAnn Clare Lewandowski wrote: You miss the point, an e collar is not about being abusive any more than a horse trainer using a lunge whip or lariat to move a horse in a round pen or have a horse yield to the pressure of a bit is. Moving cattle by getting into their bodyspace on foot, with a stock whip, on horseback or with a stock dog is to move them with -R, is this abusive? I was laughing at the brain locked concept that all e collars are abusive by nature. If this is true then all dressage riders, 3 day eventers and other horse activities are by nature abusive and discussion should turn to the evils of bits, lunge whips, dressage whips and spurs. Ban horse events from the Olympics! tut tut tut! what evil people horse trainers and riders are! sounds silly doesn't it? Before anyone starts to try to ban horse related activities, I suggest watching a program on some satellite and cable channels called Dennis Reis Horsemanship. Of the natural horsemanship style methods I've seen, his seems to be the best, or at least the one with a program of teaching humans that is clearest while showing extreme effectiveness with both completely untrained horses and horses with problems. Most of his work is -R, having a horse yield to either physical touch or by entering their bodyspace in some manner. In one case it was training police horses to tolerate a helicopter. He first trained them en mass to move away from him with a rope and the edge of the paddock and that they could rest safely in the center. He then had the helicopter pilot drive them in to the center where they knew they could stop moving. Within 3 days about 20 horses were tolerating having their rider direct them under the helicopter while it hovered so low the rider could touch the landing rails. -R training that was effective, horses showed little if any stress--no whites of eyes showing, excessive sweat, trembling, bolting, etc. Good grief Charley Brown! someone saw a target stick being carried into the sea lion's pen! that trainer must plan on beating that sea lion with it! ban target sticks! just plain silly human brain lock, knee jerk conditioned response rather than rational and investigated evaluation. This list is supposed to be based on scientific methods for the most part. Read Steve Lindsay's chapter if you can't or won't go see someone skilled use one. Then you'll have data and references upon which to make a rational conclusion. I find it funny when people become emotional and tunnel blind without rational thought or any experience. Clare ----- Original Message ----- From: Cecilia Lambert To: Clare Lewandowski Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 11:44 AM Subject: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) What does any of this have to do with ethology? Ethology is not about dog training with abusive devices. CeAnn Clare Lewandowski wrote: > > They ARE a means of PUNISHMENT or its cousin, R-. That is exactly what > they > are. And of course therefore evil, have no redeeming qualities and are only used by vile people who want to buy an expensive way to torture dogs. Or they are lazy, incompetent trainers taking the easy way out. Hmm, a whole lot of hunting dogs are being trained with them, didn't realize those trainers fit the above description. Those who do want truly to torture a dog can use a belt far more cheaply. You may not have heard of the vibration mode collars that can be used with deaf dogs and as a conditioned +R or warning plus the collars that have one or more tones to be condition's as +R praise tones or -R warning tones. The new models have low setting so low most people can't feel them. The sensation is detectable but not necessarily unpleasant. -R doesn't have to be unpleasant. One could consider that a stream of intermediate bridges stopping because the animal erred is -P, the chance for reward has been removed. Most horse training is based on -R, I don't hear of anyone trying to ban bridles, bits, lunge whips, dressage whips and dressage spurs, in particular the latter 2 are 'aids' that give subtle and precise cues. In the book on NLP with horses, one dressage master was quoted as saying use your crop! the horse loves it! he didn't mean raising welts on the horse but that giving the horse more and precise information you were helping the horse and paying attention. All the above can be used in a way to create permanent mental damage and at least temporary pain. The old cowboy bronco breaking is out of favor, can't think of anyone who has even seen it done. I'll see if I can find the link showing a malinois performing some very nice obedience work with a very happy face. This subject gets so silly when it gets across the board condemnation from people who have never used one or seen one used well. Again, Steve Lindsay's chapter should answer all concerns over the humane use of e collars as an effective teaching tool. Clare CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. From: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" 31-OCT-2005 15:16:34.05 To: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com", IN%"clare@amerion.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) In a message dated 10/31/2005 1:04:59 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, ceannicrc@yahoo.com writes: No, you miss my point. Training an animal by using a device that causes them pain, is not ethology. I have 18 years experience training wolves and coyotes using ethological techniques, which do not include causing pain to the animal in any way. I don't know anything about horses. CeAnn Clare Lewandowski wrote: I want to say that despite my advocacy of shock collars for control of barking tantrums, I am unconvinced that they have any other appropriate use. In the case of barking, the animal has complete control over whether it gets shock. The feedback is immediate and consistent. Further, I have yet to see an effective alternative. Barking is just a hard behavior for people to intervene in without reinforcing it. From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 31-OCT-2005 15:17:56.01 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Clare, The emotional posts here are all yours. I agree with Ceann, this is now completely off topic, not constructive and not much fun. Cheers Diana I find it funny when people become emotional and tunnel blind without rational thought or any experience. From: IN%"simon@gadbois.org" "Simon Gadbois" 31-OCT-2005 15:20:30.37 To: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: psychoneuroimmunology Hi Anna, I believe Ader and Cohen is still the main textbook/handbook reference, which is a shame considering it is very much outdated on the research. There is "Psychoneuroimmunology: An Interdisciplinary Introduction" by Schedlowski (sp?) and Tewes but I never had a chance to look at it. There are a number of review papers on the topic (that you can find with Google Scholar or PsychInfo and PubMed). A new synthesis of the field is very much needed. On the strictly human side of things there is "Mind-Body Medicine: A Clinician's Guide to Psychoneuroimmunology" by Watkins (not sure of the year, middle to late 90's?)). Let me know what you find; this is peripheral but relevant to my interests (behavioural ecotoxicology and endocrinology) Regards, Simon Gadbois --- Simon Gadbois, Ph.D. Assistant Professor Psychology/Neuroscience Dalhousie University Halifax, Nova Scotia Canada, B3H 4J1 Tel: 902-494-6809; Fax: 902-494-6585 http://www.gadbois.org --- On 31-Oct-05, at 12:39 PM, Anna Olsson wrote: > Suggestions for a good introductory, scientific text on this topic > are welcome. Preferably something more accessible than Ader's 1000 > page 300 dollar classic... > > Regards, > Anna > > > Dr Anna Olsson > Researcher > Animal Behaviour and Welfare - Bioethics > http://www.ibmc.up.pt/group.php?area=4&grupo=18 > > Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC > Rua Campo Alegre 823 > 4150-180 Porto, Portugal > Phone +351 22 607 4900 > Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 31-OCT-2005 17:37:52.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Diana (Whitebirds) wrote: > I agree that a skilled trainer (in any method) can do an effective job. > However electronic collars are widely advertised and available for John Q > Public. As I said earlier they are advertised as remote training collars and > sold to anyone with the money to buy. > > They ARE a means of PUNISHMENT or its cousin, R-. That is exactly what they > are. Well, no. They CAN be used that way, of course, but it's not the only possibility. As I said, a hard-to-eliminate stereotype. Whether there might be situations or contexts in which an aversive is actually the best and most appropriate thing is, in principle anyway, a separate issue - as is the sometimes knotty question of "when is an aversive" . Many kinds of stimuli, including some which under some circumstances could and should be considered as "noxious", are processed very differently depending on the state of the animal or person responding to them. It should not be necessary to go beyond one's own subjective experience to verify that. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 31-OCT-2005 17:55:08.88 To: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Hi John I knew that the word train was a poor choice at about the same time I hit send. Erich Klinghammer has always told me that ethology is just about seeing things from the animals point of view. When I see some of these posts with that in mind, I feel very sorry for animals that are trained by some of these trainers. CeAnn John Burchard wrote: Cecilia Lambert wrote: > What does any of this have to do with ethology? Ethology is not about dog training with abusive devices. In the first place, ethology is not especially or primarily about animal training (of dogs or any other species) at all. The roots of ethology lie elsewhere; it is the study of the "comparative anatomy" of behavior. Aren't we saying the same thing? CeAnn In the second place, it is not the device but the trainer who is, or can be, abusive. Devices are neutral, they are *things*. It is up to the trainer to use them, or not use them, wisely. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 31-OCT-2005 17:59:38.99 To: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Explain to the animal that is not about causing them pain. CeAnn John Burchard wrote: Cecilia Lambert wrote: > No, you miss my point. Training an animal by using a device that causes them pain, is not ethology. > I have 18 years experience training wolves and coyotes using ethological techniques, which do not include causing pain to the animal in any way. I don't know anything about horses. Sorry, CeAnn, it is you who miss the point. This is not about causing pain, nor is that the only possible use of the device. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ CeAnn Lambert Indiana Coyote Rescue Center www.coyoterescue.org --------------------------------- Yahoo! FareChase - Search multiple travel sites in one click. From: IN%"PSimonet@PeTalk.org" "Trisha Simonet" 31-OCT-2005 18:37:33.29 To: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" Subj: RE: Bits, bridles and -R Actually, there are people who train horses with positive reinforcement only, and they also use bitless bridles. I have even seen competition horses on the bitless bridles who have been trained with positive reinforcement. Trisha On Oct 31, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Clare Lewandowski wrote: > Most horse training is based on -R, I don't hear of anyone trying > to ban bridles, bits, lunge whips, dressage whips and dressage spurs, From: IN%"PSimonet@PeTalk.org" "Trisha Simonet" 31-OCT-2005 18:44:06.90 To: IN%"Michalchik@aol.com" CC: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com", IN%"clare@amerion.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) On Oct 31, 2005, at 1:15 PM, Michalchik@aol.com wrote: > I want to say that despite my advocacy of shock collars for control > of barking tantrums, I am unconvinced that they have any other > appropriate use. In the case of barking, the animal has complete > control over whether it gets shock. The feedback is immediate and > consistent. Further, I have yet to see an effective alternative. > Barking is just a hard behavior for people to intervene in without > reinforcing it. > I just wanted to submit that in cases of anxiety related barking, shock collars exacerbate the anxiety and actually increases the frequency and level of barking. Trisha From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 31-OCT-2005 18:44:45.60 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Bits, bridles and -R Is there a bitless bridle that doesn't use -R pressure on the nose, chin strap or poll? and there are people using clicker or verbal bridges in addition to -R cues and various rewards such as treats. I know Kayce is doing some very detailed work with her mare using +R only. Is there anyone who rides with cues that are not -R, yielding to the pressure on the bit, moving away from a neck rein, leg pressure or other aids? If so I'd like to know how they do it. ----- Original Message ----- From: "Trisha Simonet" To: "Clare Lewandowski" Cc: "Applied Ethology list" Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 4:37 PM Subject: Re: Bits, bridles and -R > Actually, there are people who train horses with positive reinforcement > only, and they also use bitless bridles. I have even seen competition > horses on the bitless bridles who have been trained with positive > reinforcement. > > Trisha > > On Oct 31, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Clare Lewandowski wrote: > >> Most horse training is based on -R, I don't hear of anyone trying to ban >> bridles, bits, lunge whips, dressage whips and dressage spurs, > > From: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds" 31-OCT-2005 19:29:10.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem ----- Original Message ----- From: "John Burchard" I wrote: > > They ARE a means of PUNISHMENT or its cousin, R-. That is exactly what > they are. > Well, no. They CAN be used that way, of course, but it's not the only > possibility. No, it's not. The topic at the time was - an ecollar being recommended for a barking dog. I assumed this was an ecollar which will punish barking and negatively reinforce silence - if it doesn't operate in this way in this situation, how else will it operate? You suggested that "Such devices can be and often are abused (there is no training device - including "positive reinforcement" - that cannot be abused) but in the right hands they can be extremely useful in the proper training e.g. of working dogs. Because you said they could be abused and needed 'the right hands' I made the assumption (perhaps wrongly?) that these were ecollars also designed to punish incorrect behaviour and negatively reinforce correct behaviour. Hence my comment. You had written: > They must, of > course, be understood as a way of communicating with the dog, not as a > means of punishment or intimidation. I think we can play with words and I'm trying not to. Punishment - reduces the likelihood of a behaviour occurring in future. Forget emotion/ intimidation (which I didn't mention or suggest) - that is the scientific definition (in simple terms). Many people do things with no intention of punishing behaviours, but do. Some intend to punish behaviours, but fail. The same goes for reinforcement. It is always effect on behaviour that tells the story. IMO a skilled trainer is ALWAYS trying to communicate with their subject whatever tool/ method they may be using. > Whether there might be situations or contexts in which an aversive is > actually the best and most appropriate thing is, in principle anyway, a > separate issue - as is the sometimes knotty question of "when is an > aversive" . Agreed. > Many kinds of stimuli, including some which under some > circumstances could and should be considered as "noxious", are processed > very differently depending on the state of the animal or person responding > to them. Agreed. > It should not be necessary to go beyond one's own subjective experience to > verify that. It isn't. I think if we thought about our own subjective experiences we could find examples that exactly verify that :). Cheers Diana From: IN%"clare@amerion.com" "Clare Lewandowski" 31-OCT-2005 19:42:43.92 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: still -R www.bitlessbridle.com this may indeed be an improvement over bits, hackamores or bosals but is still yielding to pressure, concept is the same, tool is perhaps better. However I'm not certain that sensation over a large area is better than sensation over a small area. The article describes pain and a good rider and trainer do not need nor to use 'pain' as part of the -R process. The specific sensation of a sensation on a small area may be more detectable and clear than over a large area. The 5 F's described here sound like responses to improper introduction to bits or perhaps 'over bitting' using a bit whose sensations are a magnitude more intense than the horse is used to. Clare SLOWING AND STOPPING Brief pressure on both reins or alternate pressure on each rein applies a gentle squeeze to the whole of the head and triggers a 'submit' response. Braking is probably attributable to a combination of the calming effect of a whole-head-hug; to initiation of a balancing reflex at the poll; to the stimulation of areas of special sensitivity behind the ears; and to painless pressure across the bridge of the nose. The "brakes" are more reliable than those provided by the bit. First, bit-induced pain causes many a horse to bolt rather than brake. Secondly, at no time can the horse deprive the rider of all means of communication by gripping the bit between its teeth or under its tongue. Unlike the mechanics of the bit, hackamore, bosal or sidepull, braking is not dependent on pain across the bridge of the nose, poll flexion and obstruction of the airway. The message is ready to be sent with the following file or link attachments: Shortcut to: http://www.bitlessbridle.com/ Note: To protect against computer viruses, e-mail programs may prevent sending or receiving certain types of file attachments. Check your e-mail security settings to determine how attachments are handled. From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" 31-OCT-2005 19:44:55.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Re: Bits, bridles and -R Hello Clare, I have been following this thread with interest but have chosen to take no part till now. FROM CLARE: I know Kayce is > doing some very detailed work with her mare using +R only. MY RESPONSE: Kayce is not the only one. Even Kayce says that there is divergent evolution happening in behavioral work. http://www.on-target-training.com/ Paste from site: Can On Target Training be used for work under saddle? Yes. The same principles apply. We recommend reinforcing horses from the saddle. Simply bridge the actions you like and reinforce accordingly. We ride with a lined fanny pack for our rewards and a clicker attached to a riding stick. To reward your horse after clicking, use the rein to gently pull your horse's head to the side. Then lean forward and feed him. END PASTE CLARE'S QUESTION: Is there anyone > who rides with cues that are not -R, yielding to the pressure on the bit, > moving away from a neck rein, leg pressure or other aids? If so I'd like to > know how they do it. MY RESPONSE: I suggest you ask this woman. http://www.cremebrulee.be/inge/ Who like me was and maybe still is a Kayce student. Kayce's work is excellent but she is not the only one working in the area. Nor is she the only one who has made significant contributions to working with bridging and targets to achieve results in many areas. I suggest you also research some of these people. Her work as it sometimes comes across, often due to people first coming across it being very enthusiastic about what they see, is not an instant panacea for everything in every circumstances. It is not snake oil. It isn't an instant cure all for everything. It is based on proven learning principles which have been known for a long time. Kayce didn't invent them. She has developed her own personal system to use these effectively. So have many others. They have just done it differently. Many of their systems can at times also produce equally dramatic results to what you have seen. Even Kayce doesn't claim that every use of her method produces the same results as speedily every time. I know Kayce won't mind my inputting this as we had the same conversation on the phone the day before yesterday and during this conversation Kayce said she didn't mean it to be coming across as an instant panacea for everything. Just as a system that is very often effective and in the right circumstances long lasting. Kayce also said that all claims made have to be seen in the context they were performed in. My addition (not as a total generalisation!!!) Incidently I am probably the trainer (at least dog trainer)in NZ with the most profficiency, experience and expertise in using Kayce's techniques. (The other one has moved back to Aussie Kayce). If I'm not these days then I am sure Kayce will correct me. I often use her techniques successfully, as I often use techniques from other trainers as well equally successfully in my behavour modification work, (it is a case of horses for courses) so I am not talking from an uneducated viewpoint. Regards John L. New Zealand. From: IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" "Good Dog Behaviour Consultants" 31-OCT-2005 20:20:44.19 To: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Would you bite, kick, or punch a child for poking you with a pencil?=20 I would shove them out of the way and make my get-away, as do nice dogs. = Jackie Perkins=20 BVSc hons MACVSc (animal behaviour) BA Veterinary Behaviour Consultant ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Greg & Jackie=20 To: gooddog@dodo.com.au=20 Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:14 AM Subject: FW: Barking problem was (no subject) -----Original Message----- From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com]=20 Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:48 PM To: clager@c.dk; dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au Cc: whitebird@xtra.co.nz; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) In a message dated 10/30/2005 10:57:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, = clager@c.dk writes: Jackie argues that a dog should not bite even if poked with a pencil = - and says that murderers have reasons too.=20 I do not think you can make that connection - the dog that bites = after being tormented by a child is not reacting as a murderer but in = selfdefense - most countries do have laws for humans saying that it is = ok to defend oneself against attackers.=20 Even the nicest dog will defend itself if hurt bad enough - the = parent that did not supervise and teach the child to treat the dog = nicely are to blame. Not the dog. You know I think this may quickly degenerate into one of those = conversations where someone makes an absolutist statement in order to = make a point and then other people pick out inevitable absurdities and = force the person to defend straw men. I think it is pretty safe to say = that everyone or nearly everyone here agrees that some behaviors are = unacceptable in domestic animals and humans but that there are = circumstances and settings in which such behaviors are excusable or = inevitable. We may disagree about where exactly to draw the line, but = arguing such things in the hypothetical is fruitless in a forum like = this. This all reminds me of a somewhat unrelated topic. I had the privilege = of owning ferrets for a few years and man, those are weird wonderful = animals. My ferrets were both from Marshall's, which has a reputation of = producing good natured animals, but these girls were good natured to the = point of ridiculousness. They seemed to only have a capacity for two = emotions, curiosity and playfulness. They had a lot of interaction with = preschoolers because my son was that age, and damn they seemed to thrive = on abuse that would have driven a human or dog to a breakdown. I was = quite protective of them at first, but the more the preschoolers = hounded, poked, dragged around and otherwise "abused" these little furry = slinkys, the more entertained they seemed to be. Yeah they got tired and = I did my best to make sure that they weren't crushed or broken, but = there capacity to deal with rough and awkward play was quite superhuman = and touching. One thing I was convinced of is this fearless little = species is fully domesticated; there is no way they would survive in the = wild.=20 Michael From: IN%"PSimonet@PeTalk.org" "Trisha Simonet" 31-OCT-2005 20:53:50.04 To: IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" "Good Dog Behaviour Consultants" CC: IN%"whitebird@xtra.co.nz" "Whitebirds", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) Actually, children do bite, kick, shove, and punch when a conspecfic pokes them with pencils. For examples in the literature, see the studies done in Brazil on school children. ( I don't have the researcher's name right now, but she did the research about ten years ago.) Trisha On Oct 31, 2005, at 6:20 PM, Good Dog Behaviour Consultants wrote: > Would you bite, kick, or punch a child for poking you with a pencil? > I would shove them out of the way and make my get-away, as do nice > dogs. > Jackie Perkins > BVSc hons MACVSc (animal behaviour) BA > Veterinary Behaviour Consultant > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Greg & Jackie > To: gooddog@dodo.com.au > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:14 AM > Subject: FW: Barking problem was (no subject) > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:48 PM > To: clager@c.dk; dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au > Cc: whitebird@xtra.co.nz; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) > > > In a message dated 10/30/2005 10:57:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, > clager@c.dk writes: > > Jackie argues that a dog should not bite even if poked with a > pencil - and says that murderers have reasons too. > I do not think you can make that connection - the dog that bites > after being tormented by a child is not reacting as a murderer but > in selfdefense - most countries do have laws for humans saying that > it is ok to defend oneself against attackers. > Even the nicest dog will defend itself if hurt bad enough - the > parent that did not supervise and teach the child to treat the dog > nicely are to blame. Not the dog. > > You know I think this may quickly degenerate into one of those > conversations where someone makes an absolutist statement in order > to make a point and then other people pick out inevitable > absurdities and force the person to defend straw men. I think it > is pretty safe to say that everyone or nearly everyone here agrees > that some behaviors are unacceptable in domestic animals and humans > but that there are circumstances and settings in which such > behaviors are excusable or inevitable. We may disagree about where > exactly to draw the line, but arguing such things in the > hypothetical is fruitless in a forum like this. > > > This all reminds me of a somewhat unrelated topic. I had the > privilege of owning ferrets for a few years and man, those are > weird wonderful animals. My ferrets were both from Marshall's, > which has a reputation of producing good natured animals, but these > girls were good natured to the point of ridiculousness. They seemed > to only have a capacity for two emotions, curiosity and > playfulness. They had a lot of interaction with preschoolers > because my son was that age, and damn they seemed to thrive on > abuse that would have driven a human or dog to a breakdown. I was > quite protective of them at first, but the more the preschoolers > hounded, poked, dragged around and otherwise "abused" these little > furry slinkys, the more entertained they seemed to be. Yeah they > got tired and I did my best to make sure that they weren't crushed > or broken, but there capacity to deal with rough and awkward play > was quite superhuman and touching. One thing I was convinced of is > this fearless little species is fully domesticated; there is no way > they would survive in the wild. > > > Michael > > From: IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" "Good Dog Behaviour Consultants" 31-OCT-2005 21:51:39.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) I did not know there were any children on this list. "Would you bite, kick, or punch a child for poking you with a pencil?" where "you" are the list members. Jackie ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg & Jackie" To: Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 12:57 PM Subject: FW: Barking problem was (no subject) > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Trisha Simonet [mailto:PSimonet@PeTalk.org] > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 12:54 PM > To: Good Dog Behaviour Consultants > Cc: Whitebirds; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) > > Actually, children do bite, kick, shove, and punch when a conspecfic > pokes them with pencils. For examples in the literature, see the > studies done in Brazil on school children. ( I don't have the > researcher's name right now, but she did the research about ten years > ago.) > > Trisha > > On Oct 31, 2005, at 6:20 PM, Good Dog Behaviour Consultants wrote: > >> Would you bite, kick, or punch a child for poking you with a pencil? >> I would shove them out of the way and make my get-away, as do nice >> dogs. >> Jackie Perkins >> BVSc hons MACVSc (animal behaviour) BA >> Veterinary Behaviour Consultant >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Greg & Jackie >> To: gooddog@dodo.com.au >> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:14 AM >> Subject: FW: Barking problem was (no subject) >> >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] >> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:48 PM >> To: clager@c.dk; dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au >> Cc: whitebird@xtra.co.nz; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >> Subject: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) >> >> >> In a message dated 10/30/2005 10:57:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >> clager@c.dk writes: >> >> Jackie argues that a dog should not bite even if poked with a >> pencil - and says that murderers have reasons too. >> I do not think you can make that connection - the dog that bites >> after being tormented by a child is not reacting as a murderer but >> in selfdefense - most countries do have laws for humans saying that >> it is ok to defend oneself against attackers. >> Even the nicest dog will defend itself if hurt bad enough - the >> parent that did not supervise and teach the child to treat the dog >> nicely are to blame. Not the dog. >> >> You know I think this may quickly degenerate into one of those >> conversations where someone makes an absolutist statement in order >> to make a point and then other people pick out inevitable >> absurdities and force the person to defend straw men. I think it >> is pretty safe to say that everyone or nearly everyone here agrees >> that some behaviors are unacceptable in domestic animals and humans >> but that there are circumstances and settings in which such >> behaviors are excusable or inevitable. We may disagree about where >> exactly to draw the line, but arguing such things in the >> hypothetical is fruitless in a forum like this. >> >> >> This all reminds me of a somewhat unrelated topic. I had the >> privilege of owning ferrets for a few years and man, those are >> weird wonderful animals. My ferrets were both from Marshall's, >> which has a reputation of producing good natured animals, but these >> girls were good natured to the point of ridiculousness. They seemed >> to only have a capacity for two emotions, curiosity and >> playfulness. They had a lot of interaction with preschoolers >> because my son was that age, and damn they seemed to thrive on >> abuse that would have driven a human or dog to a breakdown. I was >> quite protective of them at first, but the more the preschoolers >> hounded, poked, dragged around and otherwise "abused" these little >> furry slinkys, the more entertained they seemed to be. Yeah they >> got tired and I did my best to make sure that they weren't crushed >> or broken, but there capacity to deal with rough and awkward play >> was quite superhuman and touching. One thing I was convinced of is >> this fearless little species is fully domesticated; there is no way >> they would survive in the wild. >> >> >> Michael >> >> > > > > > > From: IN%"vbowen@bowenconsulting.net" 31-OCT-2005 22:36:26.40 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Bits, bridles and -R Unfortunately, I think you're right about the bitless bridles. At least the ones I've seen personally. I'm not sure I'm any more fond of them than I am of bits. I would submit that yielding to pressure in the case of leg cues and neck reining however, while definitely -R, is not the same as bits, lunge whips, dressage whips and spurs. I personally DO call for an end to those latter devices as they are far too frequently relied upon, and mis-used, as a "shortcut" to developing a real trust based communication and relationship with the horse. The former of these properly used is ideally a light pressure, while the latter tends to start out heavy and just get heavier. Virginia Murrieta, CA "My treasures do not clink together, nor glitter. They gleam in the sun and bray in the night." All animals under human care deserve "The Five Freedoms" 1. Freedom from hunger and thirst. 2. Freedom from discomfort. 3. Freedom from pain, injury and disease. 4. Freedom to express normal behavior. 5. Freedom from fear and distress. > -----Original Message----- > From: Clare Lewandowski [mailto:clare@amerion.com] > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 4:45 PM > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Bits, bridles and -R > > Is there a bitless bridle that doesn't use -R pressure on the > nose, chin strap or poll? and there are people using clicker > or verbal bridges in addition to -R cues and various rewards > such as treats. I know Kayce is doing some very detailed work > with her mare using +R only. Is there anyone who rides with > cues that are not -R, yielding to the pressure on the bit, > moving away from a neck rein, leg pressure or other aids? If > so I'd like to know how they do it. > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Trisha Simonet" > To: "Clare Lewandowski" > Cc: "Applied Ethology list" > Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 4:37 PM > Subject: Re: Bits, bridles and -R > > > > Actually, there are people who train horses with positive > > reinforcement only, and they also use bitless bridles. I have even > > seen competition horses on the bitless bridles who have > been trained > > with positive reinforcement. > > > > Trisha > > > > On Oct 31, 2005, at 11:36 AM, Clare Lewandowski wrote: > > > >> Most horse training is based on -R, I don't hear of anyone > trying to > >> ban bridles, bits, lunge whips, dressage whips and dressage spurs, > > > > > > > __________ NOD32 1.1269 (20051031) Information __________ > > This message was checked by NOD32 antivirus system. > http://www.eset.com > > From: IN%"pcare@surfglobal.net" "pcare" 31-OCT-2005 22:48:52.30 To: IN%"info@kerwoodwolf.com" "Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc.", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Man's Best Friend Pretty Smart (AP story) damn, maybe i should have been born a dog rather than a human primate. and does the fossil record truly show that we descended from primates and not dogs! (why does my leg start moving when my back itches?) paul ----- Original Message ----- From: Kerwood Wolf Education Centre Inc. To: Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 6:05 AM Subject: Man's Best Friend Pretty Smart (AP story) From: IN%"PSimonet@PeTalk.org" "Trisha Simonet" 31-OCT-2005 23:03:06.09 To: IN%"dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au" "Good Dog Behaviour Consultants" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Barking problem was (no subject) My point was and is: We humans have a period in our development which precludes our ability to respond without escalation. Therefore, my answer is yes, humans do behave in the way you have described, bite, kick, punch for poking with pencils. I didn't know your example stipulated humans above a certain age. Trisha On Oct 31, 2005, at 7:51 PM, Good Dog Behaviour Consultants wrote: > I did not know there were any children on this list. > "Would you bite, kick, or punch a child for poking you with a > pencil?" where "you" are the list members. > Jackie > ----- Original Message ----- From: "Greg & Jackie" > > To: > Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 12:57 PM > Subject: FW: Barking problem was (no subject) > > > >> >> >> -----Original Message----- >> From: Trisha Simonet [mailto:PSimonet@PeTalk.org] >> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 12:54 PM >> To: Good Dog Behaviour Consultants >> Cc: Whitebirds; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >> Subject: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) >> >> Actually, children do bite, kick, shove, and punch when a conspecfic >> pokes them with pencils. For examples in the literature, see the >> studies done in Brazil on school children. ( I don't have the >> researcher's name right now, but she did the research about ten years >> ago.) >> >> Trisha >> >> On Oct 31, 2005, at 6:20 PM, Good Dog Behaviour Consultants wrote: >> >> >>> Would you bite, kick, or punch a child for poking you with a pencil? >>> I would shove them out of the way and make my get-away, as do nice >>> dogs. >>> Jackie Perkins >>> BVSc hons MACVSc (animal behaviour) BA >>> Veterinary Behaviour Consultant >>> ----- Original Message ----- >>> From: Greg & Jackie >>> To: gooddog@dodo.com.au >>> Sent: Tuesday, November 01, 2005 5:14 AM >>> Subject: FW: Barking problem was (no subject) >>> >>> >>> >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Michalchik@aol.com [mailto:Michalchik@aol.com] >>> Sent: Monday, October 31, 2005 7:48 PM >>> To: clager@c.dk; dr.jackie@good-dog.com.au >>> Cc: whitebird@xtra.co.nz; applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >>> Subject: Re: Barking problem was (no subject) >>> >>> >>> In a message dated 10/30/2005 10:57:10 P.M. Pacific Standard Time, >>> clager@c.dk writes: >>> >>> Jackie argues that a dog should not bite even if poked with a >>> pencil - and says that murderers have reasons too. >>> I do not think you can make that connection - the dog that bites >>> after being tormented by a child is not reacting as a murderer but >>> in selfdefense - most countries do have laws for humans saying that >>> it is ok to defend oneself against attackers. >>> Even the nicest dog will defend itself if hurt bad enough - the >>> parent that did not supervise and teach the child to treat the dog >>> nicely are to blame. Not the dog. >>> >>> You know I think this may quickly degenerate into one of those >>> conversations where someone makes an absolutist statement in order >>> to make a point and then other people pick out inevitable >>> absurdities and force the person to defend straw men. I think it >>> is pretty safe to say that everyone or nearly everyone here agrees >>> that some behaviors are unacceptable in domestic animals and humans >>> but that there are circumstances and settings in which such >>> behaviors are excusable or inevitable. We may disagree about where >>> exactly to draw the line, but arguing such things in the >>> hypothetical is fruitless in a forum like this. >>> >>> >>> This all reminds me of a somewhat unrelated topic. I had the >>> privilege of owning ferrets for a few years and man, those are >>> weird wonderful animals. My ferrets were both from Marshall's, >>> which has a reputation of producing good natured animals, but these >>> girls were good natured to the point of ridiculousness. They seemed >>> to only have a capacity for two emotions, curiosity and >>> playfulness. They had a lot of interaction with preschoolers >>> because my son was that age, and damn they seemed to thrive on >>> abuse that would have driven a human or dog to a breakdown. I was >>> quite protective of them at first, but the more the preschoolers >>> hounded, poked, dragged around and otherwise "abused" these little >>> furry slinkys, the more entertained they seemed to be. Yeah they >>> got tired and I did my best to make sure that they weren't crushed >>> or broken, but there capacity to deal with rough and awkward play >>> was quite superhuman and touching. One thing I was convinced of is >>> this fearless little species is fully domesticated; there is no way >>> they would survive in the wild. >>> >>> >>> Michael