From: IN%"peterhaskins@bigpond.com" "peterhaskins" 20-OCT-2006 22:32:16.51
To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "ethology"
CC:
Subj: RE: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
I have just now watched this video with morbid fascination :-(
I would have been happy to bet on this dog being rescued, with positive reward-based training and no coercion.
It seems to me the height of cruelty to train a dog with a check-chain after the damage previously caused by the chain embedded in her neck.
It also seems to me the height of cruelty to 'reward' the poor dog with head pats, which she obviously found extremely stressful, for 'coerced' compliance.
It seems to me that the turn around in her behaviour shows what an innately nice dog she is, rather than a recommendation of the training method involved. (Well, Rotties generally are, aren't they :-)
Surely her behaviour could have just as easily, or even more easily, been turned around with a kinder gentler approach with much less stress to both the dog and the trainer.
No. I would stay away from such a trainer.
Sincerely,
Jenny Haskins
Family Dog Training
Cert IV in Behavioural Dog Training
BSc, DipEd, GradDipAppSc
----- Original Message -----
From: Clare
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 1:52 AM
Subject: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
Subject: what odds would you give that this damaged dog could be rescued?
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4027079630269613373&hl=en-CA
I remember when Jon first described this dog to me as making the hair on the back of his neck stand on end. The pictures at the beginning of the clip show the damage she had done by a logging chain grown into her skin. Jon has contacts at a local shelter to work with the really hard case dogs rather than have them euthanized. Here is quite a success story. Jon uses a combination of praise, petting, physical manipulation and mild corrections to teach this dog respect, tolerance, trust and self control.
If you have a seriously aggressive dog and need some help, you can find more info on Jon at http://falawoods.com/
Julie
From: IN%"clare@hughes.net" "Clare" 20-OCT-2006 23:03:17.85
To: IN%"peterhaskins@bigpond.com" "peterhaskins", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "ethology"
CC:
Subj: RE: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
How many dogs with this level of aggression have you personally dealt with? Have you succeeded in reaching the same level of response and trust in 60 days? The dog had received vet care and her neck completely healed before leaving the shelter. If you have, how about some proof?
The head pats were to teach her to tolerate touch and learn that touch was not going to mean pain. Putting up with things we don't care for is part of daily life. Most dogs don't care for having nails trimmed but learn to put up with it and that appreciation and rewards of praise, play and affection follow.
The trainer did specify that this was a very genetically stable dog or she would not have recovered. If you have proof, as in video, of dogs with similar levels of aggression and mistreatment responding to purely positive training in any length of time, standard being reliable heeling, sit, down, tolerating and enjoying petting and praise by someone bending over the dog and reliable in public under distraction, it would mean something. Talking about it easy, can you prove it? Surely someone of your experience has dealt with such dogs and of course taped it for posterity? or are you speaking from a purely theoretical thought experiment point of view? Don't try to describe the ocean if you haven't seen it, remember that you just might be wrong, credit to Jimmy Buffet for these words of wisdom.
----- Original Message -----
From: peterhaskins
To: ethology
Sent: Friday, October 20, 2006 9:31 PM
Subject: Re: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
I have just now watched this video with morbid fascination :-(
I would have been happy to bet on this dog being rescued, with positive reward-based training and no coercion.
It seems to me the height of cruelty to train a dog with a check-chain after the damage previously caused by the chain embedded in her neck.
It also seems to me the height of cruelty to 'reward' the poor dog with head pats, which she obviously found extremely stressful, for 'coerced' compliance.
It seems to me that the turn around in her behaviour shows what an innately nice dog she is, rather than a recommendation of the training method involved. (Well, Rotties generally are, aren't they :-)
Surely her behaviour could have just as easily, or even more easily, been turned around with a kinder gentler approach with much less stress to both the dog and the trainer.
No. I would stay away from such a trainer.
Sincerely,
Jenny Haskins
Family Dog Training
Cert IV in Behavioural Dog Training
BSc, DipEd, GradDipAppSc
----- Original Message -----
From: Clare
To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
Sent: Sunday, October 01, 2006 1:52 AM
Subject: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
Subject: what odds would you give that this damaged dog could be rescued?
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4027079630269613373&hl=en-CA
I remember when Jon first described this dog to me as making the hair on the back of his neck stand on end. The pictures at the beginning of the clip show the damage she had done by a logging chain grown into her skin. Jon has contacts at a local shelter to work with the really hard case dogs rather than have them euthanized. Here is quite a success story. Jon uses a combination of praise, petting, physical manipulation and mild corrections to teach this dog respect, tolerance, trust and self control.
If you have a seriously aggressive dog and need some help, you can find more info on Jon at http://falawoods.com/
Julie
From: IN%"ZenTrainer@hotmail.com" "Zen Trainer" 21-OCT-2006 16:18:35.52
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethics List"
CC:
Subj: RE: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
I have to agree with Jenny, though I had many questions.
Where was the "before" video? I would have liked to have seen some footage of how aggressive this dog really was.
What was the role of the GSD in the middle of the training area? He looked a bit like an enforcer.
Is this Rotti now to be adopted out to an average family? What was the purpose in this "rehabilitation"?
The video was pretty poor quality and the sound even worse, but my impressions of the dogs behaviors didn't seem to match the trainers descriptions.
I saw very little praise or petting, lots of physical manipulation and constant physical corrections. The corrections and training collar were still being used 2 months later.
It may be a matter of semantics but I saw a dog who might (and I want to emphasize might) be submitting to a human. I saw nothing that denoted trust, respect, tolerance or self control. (Sure, sure, while on a choke chain the dog was able to maintain a down stay while a trainer stepped over him a few times.)
And to look at the bigger picture, if a client had a dog that was seriously aggressive (and again, I saw no footage showing this particular dog being seriously aggressive), it might be worthwhile to help that client and that dog.
This was no one's dog. It was at a shelter.
Is there a shortage of dogs at this shelter? They have a lot of time and resources to put into one dog?
How many non aggressive dogs at this shelter could have been taught the basics of obedience, making them just that much more adoptable in the time it took to "help" this one dog?
I guess I just don't get the point.
I like the website with all the video's though.
Hopefully with more and more of us with digital camera's that have video capabilities we can have more and more video's of dogs and dog training.
Oh, and in one summer of working at a vets there were at least 6 dogs brought in with their collars or harness's grown into their skin. While I found this pretty appalling, others found it serious but not abusive, just neglectful. None of the dogs were aggressive in the least.
Tracy B Ann
http://www.zenpaws.com
No. I would stay away from such a trainer.
Sincerely,
Jenny Haskins
Subject: what odds would you give that this damaged dog could be rescued?
http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4027079630269613373&hl=en-CA
I remember when Jon first described this dog to me as making the hair on the back of his neck stand on end. The pictures at the beginning of the clip show the damage she had done by a logging chain grown into her skin. Jon has contacts at a local shelter to work with the really hard case dogs rather than have them euthanized. Here is quite a success story. Jon uses a combination of praise, petting, physical manipulation and mild corrections to teach this dog respect, tolerance, trust and self control.
If you have a seriously aggressive dog and need some help, you can find more info on Jon at http://falawoods.com/
Julie
From: IN%"randihelene@tillung.no" "Randi Helene Tillung" 23-OCT-2006 10:17:40.97
To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "'ethology'"
CC:
Subj: SV: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
I am wondering if anyone agrees that this video, except from showing
corrections and no rewards, also shows flooding? I mean then the patting of
the dog. The flooding technique I think I see used in the video, is not
recommended as a first choice for training dogs. (Or people - the equivalent
would be putting someone scared of spiders into a room full of spiders). It
is very stressful for the dogs and can often elicit more aggression. I think
this is what we see when the handler repeatedly touches the dog and she
starts to growl/bark.
What comes to me while reviewing the video is also that the pulling of the
chain is used for teaching the dog to: sit down, stay, walk, heel and come.
She gets little else information of what she is supposed to do. She has to
guess if the pull means that she should sit down, stay or move; and in what
direction. She is often not prompted in another way first. Also she is often
touched/patted whenever she performs well. I think it is likely that the
touching mostly serves as an aversive - not as the intended reward.
I am the general manager of a large boarding kennel (combined with the
housing of search dogs). As our kennel is known for taking good care of
aggressive dogs we have them quite frequently as owners cannot place them
anywhere else. We would never challenge the dogs like done on this video.
Using a choke chain is out of the question because I find that the pulling
of them often elicits aggression. We ask owners to remove them, and we put
on a broad, padded nylon collar. I think the intro of the video actually
shows that this dog reacts aggressively to the choke chain?
Before handling aggressive dogs I usually train the dogs to sit on command
at several places inside their kennel. I stand outside the kennel and throw
treats at them when they perform well. For better timing I sometimes use a
clicker, but usually not as these dogs normally are very attentive and learn
quickly anyway. Usually I train this for a few minutes a few times. Then I
train them to accept my hand near them so I finally can put on them a 3
meter long nylon line. I do not hold the line, but put it on the ground. No
petting, as the dogs usually do not like that. When the line is on I can
take them to the large runs. (The line is for safety, as well as for the
possibility to control the dog without touching it). The kennel is built so
that the dog can not escape anywhere when brought from their kennel to the
run. So I let them run loose while I give them treats for taking contact
with me in a nice manner. I throw some treats inside the run, the dog runs
in and I leave the dog to itself. When I retrieve it from the run I ask it
to sit a few times and give the dog treats. Many of these dogs show
aggression at the gate/fence (especially Rottweilers, Dobermans and GSDs).
If they do I turn my back at them, leave them or sometimes I just stand
still. Which ever works. I have also experienced and heard from experts that
food consumption and aggressiveness is not compatible. So if the dogs do
take the treat even while showing aggression, I find that this reduces
aggression (despite the contingency).
Then I treat them for sitting down on command a few times through the fence.
While bringing them to and from the run I often ask them to sit and give
them a treat. That makes it easier for me to get them inside their kennel
again. I have their attention and can sort of steer them with my body
posture to sit in front of me. When inside and sitting I close the gate and
throw in a bunch of treats. (We use sausage, ham, cheese, liver etc) Our
workers are instructed to give the aggressive dog frequent treats and ask
them to perform a sit. We have a high quality "dog catcher pole" for safety,
but we have never used it. We use a muzzle if we have to handle the dogs
more closely (trimming nails etc.). We never do that inside the dogs kennel
but have a special examination room. This is so that we limit the chance of
the dogs associating something uncomfortable and painful with their kennel
or the routine.
I find that it is far easier to train dogs that shows with their full body
language and with growls and barking that they feel uncomfortable (like the
dog in the video). It is far more difficult if the dogs are hard to
interpret. (In Norway I find that Akita Inu, Shiba Inu, Great Japanese Dog
and a few of the polar breeds are more difficult to interpret).
It is sad to see that the rottweiler on the video still has to have frequent
corrections, a choke chain and still cannot sit on a verbal command (needs
to be pressed down with hand) after 2 months. We usually accomplish a good
sit given on verbal command before lunch or seldom up to two days, even with
very aggressive dogs. Of course it is not generalized to other settings
(only to several people over a few days), but then we only need it in the
kennel as we do not take these dogs outside of the kennel area while
boarding. Instead we offer consultations for helping owners with dog
behaviour problems. With aggressive dogs we discuss the prognosis and
sometimes do not recommend training. With dogs that are very aggressive to
children we do not offer training, only advice to keep children safe.
If at all I would recommend training, I would never recommend the methods
showed in the video, because of the dogs' welfare and for its poor
efficiency.
Yours,
Randi Helene Tillung
M.Sc ethology
From: IN%"ceannicrc@yahoo.com" "Cecilia Lambert" 23-OCT-2006 11:50:48.69
To: IN%"randihelene@tillung.no" "Randi Helene Tillung"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca"
Subj: RE: SV: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
Thank you Randi. There are some good tipps that I can use with my aggressive coyote, Morrell. You are very helpful. I go out of my way not to show aggression it just seems to exacerbate the problem. A choke chain would really freak her out. CeAnn
Randi Helene Tillung wrote:
st1\:*{behavior:url(#default#ieooui) } I am wondering if anyone agrees that this video, except from showing corrections and no rewards, also shows flooding? I mean then the patting of the dog. The flooding technique I think I see used in the video, is not recommended as a first choice for training dogs. (Or people – the equivalent would be putting someone scared of spiders into a room full of spiders). It is very stressful for the dogs and can often elicit more aggression. I think this is what we see when the handler repeatedly touches the dog and she starts to growl/bark.
What comes to me while reviewing the video is also that the pulling of the chain is used for teaching the dog to: sit down, stay, walk, heel and come. She gets little else information of what she is supposed to do. She has to guess if the pull means that she should sit down, stay or move; and in what direction. She is often not prompted in another way first. Also she is often touched/patted whenever she performs well. I think it is likely that the touching mostly serves as an aversive – not as the intended reward.
I am the general manager of a large boarding kennel (combined with the housing of search dogs). As our kennel is known for taking good care of aggressive dogs we have them quite frequently as owners cannot place them anywhere else. We would never challenge the dogs like done on this video. Using a choke chain is out of the question because I find that the pulling of them often elicits aggression. We ask owners to remove them, and we put on a broad, padded nylon collar. I think the intro of the video actually shows that this dog reacts aggressively to the choke chain?
Before handling aggressive dogs I usually train the dogs to sit on command at several places inside their kennel. I stand outside the kennel and throw treats at them when they perform well. For better timing I sometimes use a clicker, but usually not as these dogs normally are very attentive and learn quickly anyway. Usually I train this for a few minutes a few times. Then I train them to accept my hand near them so I finally can put on them a 3 meter long nylon line. I do not hold the line, but put it on the ground. No petting, as the dogs usually do not like that. When the line is on I can take them to the large runs. (The line is for safety, as well as for the possibility to control the dog without touching it). The kennel is built so that the dog can not escape anywhere when brought from their kennel to the run. So I let them run loose while I give them treats for taking contact with me in a nice manner. I throw some treats inside the run, the dog runs in and I leave
the dog to itself. When I retrieve it from the run I ask it to sit a few times and give the dog treats. Many of these dogs show aggression at the gate/fence (especially Rottweilers, Dobermans and GSDs). If they do I turn my back at them, leave them or sometimes I just stand still. Which ever works. I have also experienced and heard from experts that food consumption and aggressiveness is not compatible. So if the dogs do take the treat even while showing aggression, I find that this reduces aggression (despite the contingency).
Then I treat them for sitting down on command a few times through the fence. While bringing them to and from the run I often ask them to sit and give them a treat. That makes it easier for me to get them inside their kennel again. I have their attention and can sort of steer them with my body posture to sit in front of me. When inside and sitting I close the gate and throw in a bunch of treats. (We use sausage, ham, cheese, liver etc) Our workers are instructed to give the aggressive dog frequent treats and ask them to perform a sit. We have a high quality “dog catcher pole” for safety, but we have never used it. We use a muzzle if we have to handle the dogs more closely (trimming nails etc.). We never do that inside the dogs kennel but have a special examination room. This is so that we limit the chance of the dogs associating something uncomfortable and painful with their kennel or the routine.
I find that it is far easier to train dogs that shows with their full body language and with growls and barking that they feel uncomfortable (like the dog in the video). It is far more difficult if the dogs are hard to interpret. (In Norway I find that Akita Inu, Shiba Inu, Great Japanese Dog and a few of the polar breeds are more difficult to interpret).
It is sad to see that the rottweiler on the video still has to have frequent corrections, a choke chain and still cannot sit on a verbal command (needs to be pressed down with hand) after 2 months. We usually accomplish a good sit given on verbal command before lunch or seldom up to two days, even with very aggressive dogs. Of course it is not generalized to other settings (only to several people over a few days), but then we only need it in the kennel as we do not take these dogs outside of the kennel area while boarding. Instead we offer consultations for helping owners with dog behaviour problems. With aggressive dogs we discuss the prognosis and sometimes do not recommend training. With dogs that are very aggressive to children we do not offer training, only advice to keep children safe.
If at all I would recommend training, I would never recommend the methods showed in the video, because of the dogs’ welfare and for its poor efficiency.
Yours,
Randi Helene Tillung
M.Sc ethology
CeAnn Lambert
Indiana Coyote Rescue Center
www.coyoterescue.org
Please visit our gift shop @
www.cafepress.com/coyoterescue
From: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com" "Christina Le Breton" 23-OCT-2006 12:10:40.20
To: IN%"randihelene@tillung.no" "Randi Helene Tillung"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "ethology"
Subj: RE: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
I can agree w/many things ppl have been saying about this. I don't feel
that after 2 months, the dog should still be having difficulty w/learning
this.
I think they would have gotten a better response by NOT petting the dog AS
it growls, as it only encourages the behavior, among other things.
Also, taking baby steps w/the dog, going back to a previous step if needed
and tons of victories are always better in the learning process.
I've been able to take a dog aggressive rotty (severe) and w/in 2 weeks have
him off leash, off muzzle w/ my un-neutered, black, male English bull
terrier (just as one of my examples. I've had numerous other success
stories w/aggressive dogs)....so I don't see why it should take so long if
you're doing it right.
Christina
From: IN%"clare@hughes.net" "Clare" 25-OCT-2006 16:19:39.45
To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca"
CC:
Subj: RE: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
What? most of this was the first day! the final few outdoor shots were 2 months later!
----- Original Message -----
From: Christina Le Breton
To: Randi Helene Tillung
Cc: ethology
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
I can agree w/many things ppl have been saying about this. I don't feel that after 2 months, the dog should still be having difficulty w/learning this.
I think they would have gotten a better response by NOT petting the dog AS it growls, as it only encourages the behavior, among other things.
Also, taking baby steps w/the dog, going back to a previous step if needed and tons of victories are always better in the learning process.
I've been able to take a dog aggressive rotty (severe) and w/in 2 weeks have him off leash, off muzzle w/ my un-neutered, black, male English bull terrier (just as one of my examples. I've had numerous other success stories w/aggressive dogs)....so I don't see why it should take so long if you're doing it right.
Christina
From: IN%"randihelene@tillung.no" "Randi Helene Tillung" 26-OCT-2006 02:21:26.35
To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "'ethology'"
CC:
Subj: SV: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
I am not at all impressed with the results after two months. Her slow
responses, tense walking (take a close look at her stiff back legs) and
avoidance of all eye contact; combined with her low head and body posture
makes me interpret her as a stressed and confused dog.
She is punished (choked) at least four times in only 25 seconds after two
months of training. And still the video is shown as a success. What
punishment frequency do Falawood usually work at?
I can not see from the video that she solicits the touch after the two
months of training; she only seems to tolerate it. If she liked the touch I
would have expected her to work at a faster pace.
When petted, when she is forced to sit next to the handler, she lifts her
bum and tightens her mouth as if she is not at all comfortable. I have seen
too many times that handlers can not stop touching their dog when it
performs well, even if the dog hates it. Your video show that this is the
way the training is conducted, and that is probably part of the reason for
her slow and tense responses.
This dog seems to me to be easy to read. In the video she would only be
aggressive when touched or choked. So why did the handler provoke aggression
when she performed well?
Even if we as people associate a cuddle with something good, we have to let
the dog itself, with its behaviour/performance, "tell us" if it is good or
bad. I find that even for dogs that usually love to be petted (like my own
sheepdog, whom is sometimes called "laptop" because she likes to curl up on
anybody's lap) a pet is not always a reward in training for high
performance. For instance when I work her on sheep, a cuddle would for her
be a punishment. As a cuddle would be a nuisance for me when learning to
bicycle or swim.
Yours,
Randi Helene Tillung
_____
Fra: Clare [mailto:clare@hughes.net]
Sendt: 25. oktober 2006 23:37
Til: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca
Emne: Re: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain
collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the
dog when rescued
What? most of this was the first day! the final few outdoor shots were 2
months later!
----- Original Message -----
From: Christina Le Breton
To: Randi Helene Tillung
Cc: ethology
Sent: Monday, October 23, 2006 10:47 AM
Subject: Re: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain
collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the
dog when rescued
I can agree w/many things ppl have been saying about this. I don't feel
that after 2 months, the dog should still be having difficulty w/learning
this.
I think they would have gotten a better response by NOT petting the dog AS
it growls, as it only encourages the behavior, among other things.
Also, taking baby steps w/the dog, going back to a previous step if needed
and tons of victories are always better in the learning process.
I've been able to take a dog aggressive rotty (severe) and w/in 2 weeks have
him off leash, off muzzle w/ my un-neutered, black, male English bull
terrier (just as one of my examples. I've had numerous other success
stories w/aggressive dogs)....so I don't see why it should take so long if
you're doing it right.
Christina
From: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com" "Christina Le Breton" 26-OCT-2006 09:09:16.17
To: IN%"randihelene@tillung.no" "Randi Helene Tillung"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "ethology"
Subj: RE: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
Good Post Randi
Christina
On 10/26/06, Randi Helene Tillung wrote:
>
> I am not at all impressed with the results after two months. Her slow
> responses, tense walking (take a close look at her stiff back legs) and
> avoidance of all eye contact; combined with her low head and body posture
> makes me interpret her as a stressed and confused dog.
>
>
>
> She is punished (choked) at least four times in only 25 seconds after two
> months of training. And still the video is shown as a success. What
> punishment frequency do Falawood usually work at?
>
>
>
> I can not see from the video that she solicits the touch after the two
> months of training; she only seems to tolerate it. If she liked the touch I
> would have expected her to work at a faster pace.
>
>
>
> When petted, when she is forced to sit next to the handler, she lifts her
> bum and tightens her mouth as if she is not at all comfortable. I have seen
> too many times that handlers can not stop touching their dog when it
> performs well, even if the dog hates it. Your video show that this is the
> way the training is conducted, and that is probably part of the reason for
> her slow and tense responses.
>
>
>
> This dog seems to me to be easy to read. In the video she would only be
> aggressive when touched or choked. So why did the handler provoke aggression
> when she performed well?
>
>
>
> Even if we as people associate a cuddle with something good, we have to
> let the dog itself, with its behaviour/performance, "tell us" if it is good
> or bad. I find that even for dogs that usually love to be petted (like my
> own sheepdog, whom is sometimes called "laptop" because she likes to curl up
> on anybody's lap) a pet is not always a reward in training for high
> performance. For instance when I work her on sheep, a cuddle would for her
> be a punishment. As a cuddle would be a nuisance for me when learning to
> bicycle or swim.
>
>
>
>
>
> Yours,
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Randi Helene Tillung
From: IN%"hebeab@yahoo.com" "Hebe Alexander-Bloomer" 30-OCT-2006 16:18:51.19
To: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com" "Christina Le Breton", IN%"randihelene@tillung.no" "Randi Helene Tillung"
CC: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "ethology"
Subj: RE: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued
I'm a little confused by the references to time in some of these postings. When I viewed the video, I thought the training showed all took place in the same day, over the course of a couple of hours. The final footage, with the dog loose and playing with a handler, (I believed) was taken two months later.
Christina Le Breton wrote: I can agree w/many things ppl have been saying about this. I don't feel that after 2 months, the dog should still be having difficulty w/learning this.
I think they would have gotten a better response by NOT petting the dog AS it growls, as it only encourages the behavior, among other things.
Also, taking baby steps w/the dog, going back to a previous step if needed and tons of victories are always better in the learning process.
I've been able to take a dog aggressive rotty (severe) and w/in 2 weeks have him off leash, off muzzle w/ my un-neutered, black, male English bull terrier (just as one of my examples. I've had numerous other success stories w/aggressive dogs)....so I don't see why it should take so long if you're doing it right.
Christina