From: IN%"heath@vetethol.demon.co.uk" "Sarah Heath" 1-SEP-2006 04:44:52.26 To: IN%"avsab@yahoogroups.com", IN%"apbc4_um@apbc.org.uk", IN%"cabtsgforum@cabtsg.org", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: European congress of behaviour On behalf of the Organizing Committee, I send you this mail as a reminder of the coming behavioural event in Ghent Belgium from the 21st to the 24th of September 2006 . It incorporates the Annual Congresses of the European College of Veterinary Behavioural Medicine - Companion Animals, of the European Society of Veterinary Clinical Ethology and of the VDWE (Flemish veterinary behaviour organization). This promises to be a very exciting event and it would be great to see as many delegates from as many countries as possible. The complete programmes are available on the congress website at http://www.behaviour2006ghent.be . If you need any more information about the congress , please contact the organizing committee via Christine Halsberghe on christine.halsberghe@telenet.be . For the workshops only a limited number of places is still open. The application form is available on the website as well as all necessary information on how to book convenient accommodation in Ghent and on the free shuttle bus that will transport the delegates from the city centre of Ghent to the congress venue in Merelbeke. I 'm really looking forward to meet you in Ghent. With very best wishes Christine Halsberghe From: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com" "Christina Le Breton" 6-SEP-2006 13:10:55.94 To: CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethics List" Subj: RE: Muzzling Really? I've found that it can decrease the chances of a dog showing aggression because the owner is more at ease with having their dog in public and around other animals/people. And in some cases can actually feel like a security blanket to some dogs. One of my clients for example, a very large, 200 lb rotty, was very dog aggressive. Once he was introduced to his muzzle he grew to love it quite quickly as he got more freedom when he had it on (more walks, more socializing, etc). He would attend socializing classes every week and did excellent....His owners were also more relaxed when it came to the dog being muzzled. He also eventually was able to be weaned off of the muzzle and still does quite well. Christina On 8/30/06, Zen Trainer wrote: > > Many trainers allow aggressive dogs in their classes only if wearing > muzzles. My experience is that it does increase a dogs > agitation/aggression....but...at least they can't do as much harm with the > muzzle on. My suspicion is that they feel more vulnerable and less > confident. Regardless, I don't use muzzles in my classes. (Even when a dog > is slowly desensitized to the muzzle by getting tidbits of chicken cooked in > garlic while wearing the muzzle.) I do teach some clients to muzzle their > dogs for vet visits if the vet insists. > Tracy B Ann > www.zenpaws.com > "The Politics of Dogs" > www.radiofreenashville.org From: IN%"clare@hughes.net" "Clare" 6-SEP-2006 15:32:21.14 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Muzzling Christina, You've brought up a good point, the interaction between the dog and the = owner. The perception of the owner and others the dog is around of a = muzzle being good, matter of fact or bad will alter the human behavior = the dog responds to. An owner who thinks a muzzle is helpful and will = prevent a bite while the dog learns control will have body language and = behavior, perhaps even odors, congruent with the muzzle being good. And = in a training class where the instructor and other participants believe = the same, the effect is enhanced. The ring sport, police and military = trainers and racing dog people all consider a muzzle as a routine piece = of equipment and would not show any avoidance or repugnance to seeing a = dog in a muzzle. If a members of a training class or an average citizen = sees a dog wearing a muzzle and responds by gasping, pulling back and = tensing up, the message to the dog is that they are fear inspiring while = wearing the muzzle. If the owner views a muzzle with repugnance or fears = a struggle to put it on, the dog will also have a negative association = with the muzzle.=20 Unless a dog has been attacked while wearing a muzzle and bitten, I = don't see how a dog would understand that it is vulnerable while wearing = one. As a dog can ram quite hard while wearing a muzzle, and attempt to = bite if not succeed, there is no direct connection between wearing a = muzzle and being vulnerable.=20 Head haltis don't seem to trigger a great deal of aggression or would = not be so popular. What significant difference would there be from a = head halti to a muzzle? Clare ----- Original Message -----=20 From: Christina Le Breton=20 Cc: Ethics List=20 Sent: Wednesday, September 06, 2006 12:10 PM Subject: Re: Muzzling Really? I've found that it can decrease the chances of a dog showing = aggression because the owner is more at ease with having their dog in = public and around other animals/people. And in some cases can actually = feel like a security blanket to some dogs.=20 One of my clients for example, a very large, 200 lb rotty, was very = dog aggressive. Once he was introduced to his muzzle he grew to love it = quite quickly as he got more freedom when he had it on (more walks, more = socializing, etc). He would attend socializing classes every week and = did excellent....His owners were also more relaxed when it came to the = dog being muzzled.=20 He also eventually was able to be weaned off of the muzzle and still = does quite well. Christina =20 On 8/30/06, Zen Trainer wrote:=20 Many trainers allow aggressive dogs in their classes only if wearing = muzzles. My experience is that it does increase a dogs = agitation/aggression....but...at least they can't do as much harm with = the muzzle on. My suspicion is that they feel more vulnerable and less = confident. Regardless, I don't use muzzles in my classes. (Even when a = dog is slowly desensitized to the muzzle by getting tidbits of chicken = cooked in garlic while wearing the muzzle.) I do teach some clients to = muzzle their dogs for vet visits if the vet insists.=20 Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org=20 From: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com" "Christina Le Breton" 6-SEP-2006 17:36:23.43 To: IN%"clare@hughes.net" "Clare" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Muzzling Personally, I find the ONLY thing a halti is good for is for walking your dog down the street and I don't feel it should ever be used in a training class (if one were using a sit correction for example, the head is jerked up). It should also be used in combination w/other training methods (otherwise, if the dog slips the halti, it's gone or continues to pull). I've seen more dogs react negatively to a Halti then to a muzzle. It also allows the dog to still fully open it's mouth and if one is not quick enough then a bite can still occur. At least with a muzzle, the correction is given to the neck and not to the head. I find that a dog should be muzzled if the dog has issues w/being in a large group or being around animals/people and if the other animals/people in that class are nervous of said animal. It greatly reduces the chance that one owners 5 lb poodle WON'T get eaten by another owners 150 lb dane. I do a lot of off leash work w/my clients in my basic class and safety is #1. The best type of muzzles are the basket muzzles, and I prefer the leather/metal type or the leather/plastic type (baskerville muzzles come to mind for an example). I am not a fan of all leather because a) they do not allow the dog to eat/drink/pant b) it shrinks when it gets wet. W/the basket muzzles the dog can still eat and drink with it on and can still open it's mouth enough to pant. I also do not like the all material type of muzzle either, the dog cannot fully open its mouth, and it is suggested that these not be used during exercise or for long periods, whereas w/basket muzzles, since a dog can still eat/drink/pant, they can be used for longer. In the end it all comes down to how you introduce the muzzle, how often it is used, and if the dog receives more punishment then praise while the muzzle is on....especially for the first 2 weeks. Christina On 9/6/06, Clare wrote: > > Christina, > You've brought up a good point, the interaction between the dog and the > owner. The perception of the owner and others the dog is around of a muzzle > being good, matter of fact or bad will alter the human behavior the dog > responds to. An owner who thinks a muzzle is helpful and will prevent a bite > while the dog learns control will have body language and behavior, perhaps > even odors, congruent with the muzzle being good. And in a training class > where the instructor and other participants believe the same, the effect is > enhanced. The ring sport, police and military trainers and racing dog people > all consider a muzzle as a routine piece of equipment and would not show any > avoidance or repugnance to seeing a dog in a muzzle. If a members of > a training class or an average citizen sees a dog wearing a muzzle and > responds by gasping, pulling back and tensing up, the message to the dog is > that they are fear inspiring while wearing the muzzle. If the owner views > a muzzle with repugnance or fears a struggle to put it on, the dog will also > have a negative association with the muzzle. > Unless a dog has been attacked while wearing a muzzle and bitten, I don't > see how a dog would understand that it is vulnerable while wearing one. As a > dog can ram quite hard while wearing a muzzle, and attempt to bite if not > succeed, there is no direct connection between wearing a muzzle and being > vulnerable. > Head haltis don't seem to trigger a great deal of aggression or would not > be so popular. What significant difference would there be from a head halti > to a muzzle? > > Clare > > ----- Original Message ----- > > *From:* Christina Le Breton > *Cc:* Ethics List > *Sent:* Wednesday, September 06, 2006 12:10 PM > *Subject:* Re: Muzzling > > > Really? > > I've found that it can decrease the chances of a dog showing aggression > because the owner is more at ease with having their dog in public and around > other animals/people. And in some cases can actually feel like a security > blanket to some dogs. > > One of my clients for example, a very large, 200 lb rotty, was very dog > aggressive. Once he was introduced to his muzzle he grew to love it quite > quickly as he got more freedom when he had it on (more walks, more > socializing, etc). He would attend socializing classes every week and did > excellent....His owners were also more relaxed when it came to the dog being > muzzled. > > He also eventually was able to be weaned off of the muzzle and still does > quite well. > > Christina > > > On 8/30/06, Zen Trainer wrote: > > > > Many trainers allow aggressive dogs in their classes only if wearing > > muzzles. My experience is that it does increase a dogs > > agitation/aggression....but...at least they can't do as much harm with the > > muzzle on. My suspicion is that they feel more vulnerable and less > > confident. Regardless, I don't use muzzles in my classes. (Even when a dog > > is slowly desensitized to the muzzle by getting tidbits of chicken cooked in > > garlic while wearing the muzzle.) I do teach some clients to muzzle their > > dogs for vet visits if the vet insists. > > Tracy B Ann > > www.zenpaws.com > > "The Politics of Dogs" > > www.radiofreenashville.org From: IN%"ZenTrainer@hotmail.com" "Zen Trainer" 7-SEP-2006 10:28:53.77 To: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com" "Christina Le Breton" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethics List" Subj: RE: Muzzling I haven't yet met a dog in 12 years who seemed to think the muzzle was a security blanket, or did you mean the owner? Nervous owners in my class have their dogs taken away from them. One of my assistants works with the dog and by seeing their dog interact positively they soon feel relaxed enough to hold the leash of their dog with one of my assistants at their side. What kind of socialization classes? I have seen some where the dogs stand side by side and that is called socialization. (Reminds me of public school, desks right next to each other but no talking!) My classes have 30 minutes of playtime; wrestling, rolling, running and "rumpusing". Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org http://zenpaws.blogspot.com Really? I've found that it can decrease the chances of a dog showing aggression because the owner is more at ease with having their dog in public and around other animals/people. And in some cases can actually feel like a security blanket to some dogs. One of my clients for example, a very large, 200 lb rotty, was very dog aggressive. Once he was introduced to his muzzle he grew to love it quite quickly as he got more freedom when he had it on (more walks, more socializing, etc). He would attend socializing classes every week and did excellent....His owners were also more relaxed when it came to the dog being muzzled. He also eventually was able to be weaned off of the muzzle and still does quite well. Christina On 8/30/06, Zen Trainer > wrote: My experience is that it does increase a dogs agitation/aggression....but...at least they can't do as much harm with the muzzle on. My suspicion is that they feel more vulnerable and less confident. Regardless, I don't use muzzles in my classes. From: IN%"ZenTrainer@hotmail.com" "Zen Trainer" 7-SEP-2006 10:37:04.39 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethics List" CC: Subj: RE: Muzzling So, would you say that you could handcuff and/or tie up a person and they wouldn't feel vulnerable unless they were attacked? The act of constraining them would not make them feel vulnerable? One of the differences between a Halti and a muzzle is that a dog *can* bite with a Halti on. I don't use head halters because while I have not seen them provoke aggression they do seem to stress way too many dogs (as opposed to a Sporn Harness which I have never seen stress any dog...yet.) Sales of head halters are decreasing here at local pet stores, I think it was a fad. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org http://zenpaws.blogspot.com Unless a dog has been attacked while wearing a muzzle and bitten, I don't see how a dog would understand that it is vulnerable while wearing one. As a dog can ram quite hard while wearing a muzzle, and attempt to bite if not succeed, there is no direct connection between wearing a muzzle and being vulnerable. Head haltis don't seem to trigger a great deal of aggression or would not be so popular. What significant difference would there be from a head halti to a muzzle? Clare From: IN%"ZenTrainer@hotmail.com" "Zen Trainer" 7-SEP-2006 10:48:34.50 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethics List" CC: Subj: RE: Head Halters Personally, I find the ONLY thing a halti is good for is for walking your dog down the street and I don't feel it should ever be used in a training class (if one were using a sit correction for example, the head is jerked up). It should also be used in combination w/other training methods (otherwise, if the dog slips the halti, it's gone or continues to pull). Christina ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ The *only* thing a head halter was designed for is walking a dog. So even in a dog training class that is what it should be used for. If a trainer is using positive methods without physical corrections it wouldn't matter if the dog had a Halti on for the whole class, but it would in no way help to teach a sit. It's a management tool to be used while walking loose leash or off leash is taught. It can be a good tool if the dog accepts it well and the owner doesn't want their arm ripped off. For years now, they've come with an additional piece that hooks to the collar so that dogs can't slip them totally off. If they slip it off their head that's a great time for a quick sit/stay while it's slipped back over their head. I still like Sporn harness's best though if something other than a flat buckle collar and a cheeseburger is needed. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org http://zenpaws.blogspot.com From: IN%"peterhaskins@bigpond.com" "peterhaskins" 9-SEP-2006 02:18:44.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: Tethering, if Gail is still interested I am bemused by much of the discussion on Tethering (how did this become LG breeds?). It seems that people are not so much comparing apples and oranges, OR oranges and cricket balls, so much as oranges and cricket bats! Whether of not tethering is good or bad will depend enormously on where, where, why, how and who -- or what.. I have owned dogs continuously since 1958 and have always thethered them. I have never in that time had any trouble with the tethered dogs when unsupervised. However they are only ever tethered inside a fenced area. Why tether them, has been asked. This is to prevent dog to dog aggression in a mult-dog house-hold; to prevent fence-running and keep the dogs safe from passing school children whose favourite pass-time seemed to be teasing dogs through fences; and to keep tht dogs out of trouble generally when there is nobody home to supervise them. My requirements for safe tethering: Weather shelter -- from heat and rain and lightening (we don't really have real cold here), The option of being in the shelter of out on the grass (or dust :-), Water -- that is clean and out of the sun so that it does not overheat, A toiletting area withing reach but far enough away so that he dog is not forced to foul its rest area, A good quality chain that is heavy enough with smooth links so that it will not tangle of cut the dog's legs, and is long enough to give the dog freedom of movement, A good quality broad leather collar, Everything arranged so that the cjhain cannot become would around anything -- that is no posts, trees or such like and the dog cannot go fully around behind the kennel. A secure fence to keep out children and stray dogs and live-stock. Soory for replying so late. I have been missing mail and only just now 'resubded'. I have always found tethering to be cheerfully accepted by my dogs. I agree that tethering should not be allowed in public or in a place where strangers, especially children ,can approach it, and other dogs or livestock can attack it (or wild animals I suppose, but here in Australia we do not have any large predators that would threaten dog -- maybe eagles if you tether out a tiny dog?). Tethering is *NOT* a substitute for fencing. It might be nice to see legislation that comes in that disallows bans of people fencing their own private property -- or even makes a fenced property a necessity to be able to keep dogs. What I *WOULD* like to see banned is crating for extended periods -- anything more that three hours at a time, or more than a certain number of hours in every 24 (cerainly no more than 12 hours in every 24 hours) should be prohibited unless the dog is being restrained for medical reasons. That to me IS cruelty. And even worse is crating where dogs and strangers can approach it :-( No, sorry. I have no reference to back up my opinions. But I suspect that there would be some to show the deleterious effects of long-term crating. After all, pigs, calves, and zoo animals are no longer permitted to be kept in tiny cages -- then why dogs? Cheers, Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour Australia From: IN%"peterhaskins@bigpond.com" "peterhaskins" 9-SEP-2006 02:21:42.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Muzzling? No research, sorry. (that's why I'm on this list -- to hear about research :-) But more of my own experiences. Years ago I decided to muzzle one of my dogs as he was showing aggression to other dog. This seemed to exacerbate things - I think through making the owners of other dogs more nervous and conveying this nerrvousness to their own dogs. I also found thast 'dog-less' people were reacting very badly to my dog. So I discarded the muzzle, and things returned to 'normal'. But with my present lot of dogs I have once again tried muzzles. Knowing my 'iffy' dog has a muzzle on had enabled me to remain calmer and so I do not send her/him these nervous signals. then, I've found people's reactions to muzzles now-a-days better than they were in the 1980s. I suspect that this is partly because of the 'muzzle of choice'.. i now use a quality 'Prestige' wire basket muzzle with good quality synthetic leather (if that is not an oxymoron) padding across the top of the dog's muzzle. The dog itself finds these light-weight muzzles quite acceptable -- they can breath, feed and drink with them on. On the other hand it might be because I now have more confident in my own ability to handle my dogs and have changed from check-chain training to positive-reward-based training so no longer rely on the lead for control :-) I suspect that if it becomes standard practice to muzzle all dogs in public and people choose a good quality light-weight basket muzzle there will me no increase at all in aggressiveness seen betwen dog. There might even be a decrease as their owners relax and are prepared to let dogs socialise more with other dogs (??). This seems to me to be a far, far better response to dog attacks than BSL which insists on muzzling only of dogs deemed a dangerous breed. (Though Greyhounds managed for years with their muzzling requirements.) Cheers, Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour Australia --Original Message -- From: IN%"rachele.fuzzati@epfl.ch" "Rachele Fuzzati" 30-AUG-2006 10:25:54.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" Subj: Muzzling? A couple of weeks ago, as a result of the last pitbull attack directed towards a child, the Geneva Canton has decided to oblige all the dog owners to muzzle their dogs when walking in public parcs and green areas (no matter the size or the breed of the dog). Of course, many people in Switzerland are debating this very strict measure and many are wondering if the fact of being muzzled won't in fact increase aggressiveness in dogs. Has anybody made any experience on this? Do you have any reference? Thank you, Rachele From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 9-SEP-2006 05:41:36.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: validating tests Working with wet-lab biologists in white coats has made me reflect on the nature of applied ethology research. My non-ethologist colleagues basically only work with standard tests and nobody would think of inventing their own method for protein extraction or identification of mutations. Also for behaviour people tend to use standard tests albeit a variety of them and some variation in how they are applied. This is not, I think, the way we usually work as applied ethologists - we tend to work out our own tests quite often. I suppose this has to do with applied ethology being a field with few people working on a wide variety of topics and species (as opposed to biomedicine-related research where thousands and thousands of people work with a handful of species). But is it good or bad for the science? I mean, does the good of being flexible and designing test for ones' specific purpose outweigh the lack of validation? Anna Olsson Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Laboratory Animal Science group http://www.ibmc.up.pt/group.php?area=4&grupo=18 Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"GFLANNIGAN@triad.rr.com" 9-SEP-2006 07:24:30.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: head halters I've sat back for most of this discussion. I couldn't disagree more on the comments about head collars. I have used most of different types and had my patients use them as well. Although it is merely a tool that does not have universal effects on every dog, they tend to make dogs calmer and less stressed. They are not designed to just walk a dog. The Halti was designed primarily for obedience (by a veterinary behaviorist). However, the Gentle Leader was designed by a dog trainer and a veterinary behviorist to have much more widespread behavioral effects; the Snoot Loop works in a similar manner. Later, Gerry Gerrard Flannigan DVM, MSc. Diplomate, ACVB gflannigan@triad.rr.com From: IN%"ZenTrainer@hotmail.com" "Zen Trainer" 9-SEP-2006 08:35:19.59 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethics List" CC: Subj: RE: Muzzling? Years ago I decided to muzzle one of my dogs as he was showing aggression to other dog. This seemed to exacerbate things - I think through making the owners of other dogs more nervous and conveying this nerrvousness to their own dogs. I also found thast 'dog-less' people were reacting very badly to my dog. So I discarded the muzzle, and things returned to 'normal'. But with my present lot of dogs I have once again tried muzzles. Knowing my 'iffy' dog has a muzzle on had enabled me to remain calmer and so I do not send her/him these nervous signals. . This seems to me to be a far, far better response to dog attacks than BSL which insists on muzzling only of dogs deemed a dangerous breed. (Though Greyhounds managed for years with their muzzling requirements.) Cheers, Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour Australia Hi Jenny! I was wondering, if muzzles came in softer decorative colors would the public react better? When I work with Cane Corso's or other "scary" looking breeds, I advise clients to pick collars that are pink or light green or rainbow colors .Or have their dog wear these colors in bandanna's. It seems to make a difference on the publics perception. (There is all kinds of research on this, hospitals are green for a reason, bankers wear blue for a reason, etc.) And muzzled greyhounds weren't really out in the public, public. They were in the racing world with muzzles. The behaviorist I studied with always suggested cocktails or valium for nervous owners! Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org http://zenpaws.blogspot.com From: IN%"ZenTrainer@hotmail.com" "Zen Trainer" 9-SEP-2006 08:41:57.20 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethics List" CC: Subj: RE: head halters Now I am curious. I have found that some dogs are calmed by a Head Halter (fit well it hits an acupressure point on the bridge of the nose.) And yes, Ruth Anderson thinks it's fine for a dog to wear a Gentle leader 24/7. I have never seen any literature on a Halti or a Snoot Loop that indicates it is for anything other than walking a dog that pulls. Can you direct me to some? I also cannot fathom how they would help in obedience training. I use all positive methods, no physical corrections, no molding etc. so I am wondering how a head halter could help with a sit, stay, down, behind, or come cue? In fact, come is often taught on a long leash and head halters are never to be used with a long leash. Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org http://zenpaws.blogspot.com I've sat back for most of this discussion. I couldn't disagree more on the comments about head collars. I have used most of different types and had my patients use them as well. Although it is merely a tool that does not have universal effects on every dog, they tend to make dogs calmer and less stressed. They are not designed to just walk a dog. The Halti was designed primarily for obedience (by a veterinary behaviorist). However, the Gentle Leader was designed by a dog trainer and a veterinary behviorist to have much more widespread behavioral effects; the Snoot Loop works in a similar manner. Later, Gerry From: IN%"ZenTrainer@hotmail.com" "Zen Trainer" 9-SEP-2006 08:55:09.07 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethics List" CC: Subj: Shaping/How animals learn This could be a question for my friends in the education field but I am curious about the technique called "shaping" that is used by many clicker trainers (with mammals, dogs, rats etc.). Do humans learn by shaping at all? I can think of a lot of ways we learn but shaping doesn't really apply, except maybe in a very few instances where say your husband tells you over and over you look great in a certain outfit so you wear that a lot and get others with similar styles, colors etc. But I am not really sure that is shaping. And is there ever a time where animals learn by shaping naturally, without any human direction? Tracy B Ann www.zenpaws.com "The Politics of Dogs" www.radiofreenashville.org http://zenpaws.blogspot.com From: IN%"olsson@ibmc.up.pt" "Anna Olsson" 9-SEP-2006 09:19:03.91 To: IN%"ZenTrainer@hotmail.com" "Zen Trainer", IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Shaping/How animals learn Humans learn a lot by shaping before they achieve the age of abstract reasoning and detailed instruction. A friend of mine just told me how happy she was when her 20-month old walked up to her, waving her nappy and saying "Poop!!". Obviously the final objective is this little girl learning to go to the toilet when she needs to, but she is rewarded for each step in that direction. More difficult to think of naturally occuring shaping. Maybe the blackberry-eating rats in Manuel Berdoys Ratlife is an example: first learning that blackberries are tasty, then learning that ripe blackberries are better than green ones? Regards, Anna *********** REPLY SEPARATOR *********** On 09-09-2006 at 9:54 Zen Trainer wrote: >This could be a question for my friends in the education field but I am >curious about the technique called "shaping" that is used by many clicker >trainers (with mammals, dogs, rats etc.). > >Do humans learn by shaping at all? I can think of a lot of ways we learn >but shaping doesn't really apply, except maybe in a very few instances >where say your husband tells you over and over you look great in a certain >outfit so you wear that a lot and get others with similar styles, colors >etc. But I am not really sure that is shaping. > >And is there ever a time where animals learn by shaping naturally, without >any human direction? > >Tracy B Ann >www.zenpaws.com >"The Politics of Dogs" >www.radiofreenashville.org >http://zenpaws.blogspot.com Dr Anna Olsson Researcher Laboratory Animal Science group http://www.ibmc.up.pt/group.php?area=4&grupo=18 Institute for Molecular and Cell Biology - IBMC Rua Campo Alegre 823 4150-180 Porto, Portugal Phone +351 22 607 4900 Fax +351 22 6099157 From: IN%"k9.college_napier@xtra.co.nz" 9-SEP-2006 12:44:33.76 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethics List", IN%"ZenTrainer@hotmail.com" "Zen Trainer" CC: Subj: RE: Shaping/How animals learn TRACY:--- Zen Trainer wrote: > This could be a question for my friends in the education field but I am curious about the technique called "shaping" that is used by many clicker trainers (with mammals, dogs, rats etc.). > > Do humans learn by shaping at all? JOHN L.: Hi Tracy, Yes. For reference read "First Course in Applied Behaviour Analysis" by Paul Chance. TRACY:I can think of a lot of ways we learn but shaping doesn't really apply, except maybe in a very few instances where say your husband tells you over and over you look great in a certain outfit so you wear that a lot and get others with similar styles, colors etc. But I am not really sure that is shaping. JOHN L: IMO in an ABA sense *exactly* what you have described isn't shaping. Shaping is done by successive approximations. For the intervention to be labelled "shaping" the behaviour modifier must first have the end goal in mind and work towards this by reinforcing the one whose behaviour is being modified for every small step closer to the end goal. Your example doesn't give the detail required to establish this. IMO in the absense of possible further information what you have described is "generalisation" of something learned by an R+ association not shaping. TRACY:> And is there ever a time where animals learn by shaping naturally, without any human direction? I can't give concrete examples right now but I am sure there must be. Regards John L. From: IN%"peterhaskins@bigpond.com" "peterhaskins" 9-SEP-2006 16:03:50.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Muzzling? I'm sure!! :-) Yes, leave the studded collars, and the names like Cujo, and Killer and Rambo to the Little White Fluffies and call your dog something along the lines of Blossom, Cuddles or Snooks. I think that it not only helps the public perception of the dog, but also the owner's own perception of their dog :-) Very Important, since I believe that the vast majority of dog attacks are because of what the owner trainer, either wittingly or unwittingly, their dog to be like. Here I would like to see, instead of the Pitbull et al being designated 'restricted breeds' and subject to very harsh regulations re their keeping, "Pig Dogs" -- as in dogs trained to hunt and kill wild pigs -- being restricted. The publick here seem to equate the two, even Pig Dog owners :-( Pig Dogs of course can be any breed with sufficient size and strength. Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour Australia ----- Original Message ----- From: Zen Trainer To: Ethics List Sent: Sunday, September 10, 2006 12:34 AM Subject: Re: Muzzling? ! I was wondering, if muzzles came in softer decorative colors would the public react better? When I work with Cane Corso's or other "scary" looking breeds, I advise clients to pick collars that are pink or light green or rainbow colors .Or have their dog wear these colors in bandanna's. It seems to make a difference on the publics perception. (There is all kinds of research on this, hospitals are green for a reason, bankers wear blue for a reason, etc.) And muzzled greyhounds weren't really out in the public, public. They were in the racing world with muzzles. The behaviorist I studied with always suggested cocktails or valium for nervous owners! Tracy B Ann From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 9-SEP-2006 21:45:37.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Muzzling? Jenny Haskins wrote: > No research, sorry. (that's why I'm on this list -- to hear about > research :-) > > But more of my own experiences. > > Years ago I decided to muzzle one of my dogs as he was showing > aggression to other dog. This seemed to exacerbate things - I think > through making the owners of other dogs more nervous and conveying > this nerrvousness to their own dogs. I also found thast 'dog-less' > people were reacting very badly to my dog. So I discarded the > muzzle, and things returned to 'normal'. > > But with my present lot of dogs I have once again tried muzzles. > Knowing my 'iffy' dog has a muzzle on had enabled me to remain calmer > and so I do not send her/him these nervous signals. then, I've found > people's reactions to muzzles now-a-days better than they were in the > 1980s. > > I suspect that this is partly because of the 'muzzle of choice'.. i > now use a quality 'Prestige' wire basket muzzle with good quality > synthetic leather (if that is not an oxymoron) padding across the top > of the dog's muzzle. The dog itself finds these light-weight > muzzles quite acceptable -- they can breath, feed and drink with > them on. > > On the other hand it might be because I now have more confident in my > own ability to handle my dogs and have changed from check-chain > training to positive-reward-based training so no longer rely on the > lead for control :-) > > I suspect that if it becomes standard practice to muzzle all dogs in > public and people choose a good quality light-weight basket muzzle > there will me no increase at all in aggressiveness seen betwen dog. > There might even be a decrease as their owners relax and are prepared > to let dogs socialise more with other dogs (??). My dogs work, and while working (hunting) they cannot be muzzled. They don't have issues with other dogs, but also don't have much need to play with them. Most of their play consists of high-speed chasing and wrestling, and few other dogs can keep up well enough to be interesting partners. I would not live where muzzling was required. That is unacceptable. I won't have my dog unable to defend itself if attacked. It is also no kind of solution to the supposed "dangerous dog" problem, which is mostly a media creation. There are more and more people, and more and more dogs, and so of course more and more dog bite incidents, though it is really mostly the unremitting media attention which makes it appear more of a problem than earlier. Every incident now gets nationwide attention. Add to that an "animal rights" agenda whose ultimate goal is to make the keeping of dogs and other domestic animals impossible, and you end up with muzzling requirements (etc.!) driven mainly by image and emotion rather than by science or common sense. > This seems to me to be a far, far better response to dog attacks than > BSL which insists on muzzling only of dogs deemed a dangerous breed. > (Though Greyhounds managed for years with their muzzling > requirements.) Greyhounds are AFAIK muzzled only when actually racing, or when "turned out" in large groups as is the practice on American breeding farms (but AFAIK not in the U.K.; I'm not familiar with Australian conditions for Greyhounds). A friend and neighbor here breeds coursing Greyhounds - among the best to be found. He owns a muzzle or two, but I have never seen one in use (I operate the lure for speed trials, so see those dogs quite often in that context, and we go to the coursing field together where I am sometimes the "Slip Steward" handling the dogs in slips ...). I have owned, bred and hunted with Salukis for 35 years. Muzzles were required on the race track in Switzerland (etc.) and muzzle on or off is no issue for the dogs. They don't care. They don't normally start fights either with each other or with strange dogs, so there's no reason to muzzle them, other than the racing rule which says all dogs must run muzzled. I have known one truly aggressive Saluki, who attacked many others at the end of lure coursing runs. Muzzled or not made no difference. He used his muzzle as a battering ram - and if not wearing one, went for the throat of another dog (but never one which would fight back). With the support of his owners, that dog enjoyed a very successful career - and put a good many others (including one of my own best ones) out of coursing altogether. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 9-SEP-2006 21:45:37.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Shaping/How animals learn Anna Olsson wrote: > Humans learn a lot by shaping before they achieve the age of abstract > reasoning and detailed instruction. A friend of mine just told me how > happy she was when her 20-month old walked up to her, waving her > nappy and saying "Poop!!". Obviously the final objective is this > little girl learning to go to the toilet when she needs to, but she > is rewarded for each step in that direction. > > More difficult to think of naturally occuring shaping. Maybe the > blackberry-eating rats in Manuel Berdoys Ratlife is an example: first > learning that blackberries are tasty, then learning that ripe > blackberries are better than green ones? The assumption that all complex behavior, and all discriminations, are necessarily learned, is a dangerous one. Working with the ethology of wild species you quickly discover that's not alwas the case. It's important for researchers to be able to distinguish between maturation and learning. Both involve feedback, but it is processed in different ways. It's tempting to consider all behavior in which feedback correction leads to improved performance to be learning of some kind. Formally that may be correct, but IMO it lumps very different things under one label . John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"k9ruler@gmail.com" "Christina Le Breton" 9-SEP-2006 22:15:10.73 To: CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" Subj: RE: Shaping/How animals learn Here is a site you may find interesting http://www.tagteach.com/ Christina On 9/9/06, John Burchard wrote: > > Anna Olsson wrote: > > > Humans learn a lot by shaping before they achieve the age of abstract > > reasoning and detailed instruction. A friend of mine just told me how > > happy she was when her 20-month old walked up to her, waving her > > nappy and saying "Poop!!". Obviously the final objective is this > > little girl learning to go to the toilet when she needs to, but she > > is rewarded for each step in that direction. > > > > More difficult to think of naturally occuring shaping. Maybe the > > blackberry-eating rats in Manuel Berdoys Ratlife is an example: first > > learning that blackberries are tasty, then learning that ripe > > blackberries are better than green ones? > > The assumption that all complex behavior, and all discriminations, are > necessarily learned, is a dangerous one. > > Working with the ethology of wild species you quickly discover that's not > alwas > the case. It's important for researchers to be able to distinguish > between > maturation and learning. Both involve feedback, but it is processed in > different ways. It's tempting to consider all behavior in which feedback > correction leads to improved performance to be learning of some > kind. Formally > that may be correct, but IMO it lumps very different things under one > label . > > John > -- > Dr. John Burchard > Tepe Gawra Salukis > saluqi@ix.netcom.com > http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"peterhaskins@bigpond.com" "peterhaskins" 9-SEP-2006 23:25:22.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@usask.ca" "ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Muzzling? > Greyhounds are AFAIK muzzled only when actually racing, or when "turned > out" in > large groups as is the practice on American breeding farms (but AFAIK not > in the > U.K.; I'm not familiar with Australian conditions for Greyhounds). . .. > Muzzles were required > on the race track in Switzerland (etc.) and muzzle on or off is no issue > for the > dogs. > Dr. John Burchard We are very behind the times here, then. I quick check brought up the two sites below. http://www.gra.nsw.gov.au/adoption.asp "An important role of the program is education and promotion. People mistakenly believe that greyhounds are aggressive, as they are required by law in New South Wales to wear a muzzle in public places. GAP aims to change this negative image and educate the community that the greyhound is a very intelligent and affectionate animal and makes a perfect pet. " http://www.gapnsw.org.au/modules.php?name=muzzle "Furthermore Australia is the only country, with the sole exception of Northern Ireland, which requires Greyhounds to be muzzled when they are off the track. Happily, Victoria amended its legislation in 1999 to allow GAP Greyhounds to be exempt from wearing muzzles. Since that time, the number of retired Greyhounds adopted in Victoria has increased more than threefold. South Australia has followed suit and similarly amended its legislation in August of 2004. " Greyhounds are commonly exercised in public here too -- near the racetracks you often see people out with a number of greyhounds taking them for a walk just as pet dog owners take their dogs for walks. As I said, these greyhounds sem totally unaware of their muzzles. Here we have leash-laws that require every dog to be on leash and with an adult in public. And the number of dogs that anyone can walk at the one time is four -- regardless of whether they are Irish Wolfhounds or Chihuahuas. I think too, that the proposed legislation that started this discussion was re 'pet dogs' being walked in the streets. One of the reasons that I feel that a blanket 'all dogs must be muzzled in public' is a better option than 'all dogs which this Council has arbitrarily decreed is a Pitbull Terrier must be muzzled and kept in a 7 foot high wire and concrete padlocked enclosure at all other times'' is because of the general public perception. A muzzle will no longer be seen as signifying a 'dangerous dog'. Just think! Pink diamante muzzles for toy poodles :-) And aslo, as with the spoof news item about Ontario proposing to ban all Labrador and Labrador crosses, it will prevent the silly divide and conquer mentality of the powers that be taking advantage of lack of unity amongst dog owners and breeders. Owners of the non-targetted breeds seem to think that it is OK to restrict a particular breed of dog because they themselve don't like that breed. Owners of little breeds thinking that big breeds should be banned. And so depressingly on and on :-( For those who haven't seen it: http://caveat.blogware.com/blog/_archives/2006/8/23/2257176.html Cheers, Jenny Haskins Coffs Harbour Australia From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 10-SEP-2006 07:41:32.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: Muzzling? Jenny Haskins wrote: > I'm sure!! :-) > Yes, leave the studded collars, and the names like Cujo, and Killer > and Rambo to the Little White Fluffies and call your dog something > along the lines of Blossom, Cuddles or Snooks. My Pit Bull bitch was named Buttercup (think "H.M.S. Pinafore" ). You could hardly imagine a more loving, tolerant and kindly animal. > I think that it not only helps the public perception of the dog, but > also the owner's own perception of their dog :-) Very Important, > since I believe that the vast majority of dog attacks are because of > what the owner trainer, either wittingly or unwittingly, their dog to > be like. > > Here I would like to see, instead of the Pitbull et al being > designated 'restricted breeds' and subject to very harsh regulations > re their keeping, "Pig Dogs" -- as in dogs trained to hunt and kill > wild pigs -- being restricted. The publick here seem to equate the > two, even Pig Dog owners :-( Pig Dogs of course can be any breed > with sufficient size and strength. I've met some rather impressive pig dogs in the Queensland outback, and am fairly well acquainted with others used for the same job here in the U.S. Maybe I missed something about the Australian ones, but why would you want to restrict those especially? The ones I know here are fearsome looking, but very amiable toward all humans. I don't think hunting dogs are inherently more dangerous than others. If anything, dogs which are fulfilled by doing a job are less likely than others to be troublesome. I own, breed and use high-octane hunting dogs of a different type (sighthounds) which are mild-mannered and safe around infants and children and indeed also all kinds of livestock. There is no contradiction there. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"HannahG@moulton.ac.uk" "Hannah Gauci" 14-SEP-2006 10:05:10.71 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"DavidA@moulton.ac.uk" "David Arney" Subj: New MSc in Animal Welfare MSc in Animal Welfare, University of Northampton In association with the the University of Northampton, Moulton College is offering a new Masters programme in Animal Welfare from October 2006. Modules studied include: Principles of Animal Welfare Science; Assessing Animal Welfare; Attitudes to Animals; Animal Cognition; The Animal Brain and Behaviour and Research and Analytical Methods. Part-time study options available. For further information please contact David Arney DavidA@Moulton.ac.uk, 01604 491131 or reply to me, thanks Hannah Dr Hannah Gauci (nee Bornett) Lecturer in Animal Welfare Department of Animal Welfare and Veterinary Health Moulton College Moulton Northampton NN3 7RR Tel: +44 (0)1604 491131 ext 607 Fax: +44 (0)1604 491127 ************************************************************************ This e-mail (including attachments) is private, is intended for the recipient named, and may contain information which is confidential and privileged. If you are not the intended addressee you are prohibited from storing, copying or using the information in any way. Moulton College does not accept legal responsibility for the contents of this e-mail. Any views or opinions expressed are solely those of the author and do not necessarily represent those of Moulton College. While reasonable effort has been made to ensure this e-mail is virus free, opening and using this e-mail is at the risk of the recipient. ************************************************************************