From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 1-SEP-1998 00:41:06.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:Various Observations KAKerby@aol.com wrote: > Re. canid killing sprees: I'd be interested to know if this behavioral pattern > extends to other groups.(snip) Oh happy day! Another fellow lister who wants to play with some of these fun ideas. Re: the 'sprees' - Certainly (as you said) other species besides canines engage in this practice. A good question comes up then: Do all species share the same 'reasons' for surplus killing? Or, are the reasons (and the circumstances that trigger the sprees) as different as the species? > Re. domestic vs. wild intelligence:(snip) > And as I said above, it may be that the domesticated animals have turned their > gray matter towards issues that are more common in their immediate > environment, such as how to turn that feed trough over, instead of how to > avoid looking like lunch. > Just to lure the issue back to the "lion's den" - the word that caused great concern for our sheep friends was Lopez's use of 'ignorance' (of domestics), not intelligence (or, lack of)....Big difference really (and since we know how the nuances of words can carry some heavy weight)..... Ignorance is defined as "a lack of knowlege or learning"......Not an issue of having more or less brain power...but a situation where having 'appropriate' knowlege (to danger, for the sake of our thread) may define the outcome to a situation. The larger question then: How is knowlege of how to avoid an attack by a predator passed on? How much of this knowlege comes from "instinct"? How much is learned? > Re the predator/prey dance:(snip).. If we look, then, to animals > for whom body language is their main vehicle for conveying messages and > intent, I would be extremely surprised to find that such cues aren't involved. A Russian research project looked at the question of how predators select their prey using released borzoi dogs as stand-ins for wolves. (Zoological Journal in 1990, V.E.Sokolov, A.S.Severtsev and A.V. Shubkina of the Severtsev Institute of Evolutionary Morphology and Animal Ecology in Moscow). The dogs ran in a small pack and were observed hunting in Old World antelope herds. They learned that the dogs were indeed taking down primarily the sick, diseased and the weak (carcasses of the antelope were recovered and necropsied), but were were left mystified as to what signals were advertising the best picks. Speculations ran from subtleties of locomotion or behavior - "a hitch in gait or panic in the closing moments of the chase" However, "the most important new results we have received show that the mechanism of prey-choosing may look like the following: Every individual prey that is unhealthy or pressed because of another reason is stressed. The early stages of the stress process provokes a change in the quantity of normal skin bacteria in the prey. Stressed individuals have the strongest odor. The strength of the odor serves as reinforcement for the predator while searching for prey." A strong case for wearing your under-arm deodorant! I'm still digging around for info on how common surplus killing sprees are and what sorts of body language cues are recognized by researchers. (Am awaiting feedback from Mech) Now a question to those on this list....Are there many (any) on the list interested in the findings of this recent 'obsession' of mine? Shall I post what I find/what Mech says or switch this topic now to the private emails? Best, Donna Reynolds Lindsay Wildlife Museum Walnut Creek,CA From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 1-SEP-1998 05:47:22.03 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Re:Various Observations On Tue, 01 Sep 1998 00:02:04 +0000 Racer-Reynolds Illustration wrote: > > Re. domestic vs. wild intelligence:(snip) ... > Just to lure the issue back to the "lion's den" - the word that caused > great concern for our sheep friends was Lopez's use of 'ignorance' (of > domestics), not intelligence (or, lack of)....Big difference really > (and since we know how the nuances of words can carry some heavy > weight)..... > Ignorance is defined as "a lack of knowledge or learning"......Not an > issue of having more or less brain power... I completely agree that the word "ignorance" is an antonym for knowledge and learning. But the above presentation has quite a bit of "White House spin" in its careful and selected use of words. The original quote from Lopez (presented again below) _does_ very clearly state that he thinks that sheep (and other domestic animals) have had their "intelligence" diminished through artificial selection. This unsupported statement of Lopez's was precisely what my original criticism was directed toward. Here is the original quote as presented to this Discussion Group: >Barry Lopez in "Of Wolves and Men" offers: "The >conversation of death falters noticeably with domestic stock. They >have had the conversation of death bred out of them: they do not >know how to encounter wolves. A horse, for example - a large >animal as capable as a moose of cracking a wolf's ribs or splitting >its head open with a kick-will usually panic and run... "(This) >apparent compulsion is perhaps not so much slaughter as a failure on >the part of the sheep to communicate anything at all - resistance, >mutual respect, appropriateness - to the wolf. The wolf has >initiated a sacred ritual and met with ignorance." I would point out that Lopez's wording that sheep "fail to communicate anything at all - resistance, mutual respect, appropriateness - to the wolf" can easily be extrapolated to "the sheep does not care what happens to it." Hence, my statement that if one accepts Lopez's model that the domestic animal is genetically a greatly diminished caricature of its wild counterpart, then at some point the study of welfare of domestic animals is not necessary. Welfare questions become redundant because according to this model these animals "don't communicate anything" because they are not genetically capable of "caring" when they are attacked by a predator. The question then would become, how could these animals care about something so insignificant as living in a cage? I stand by my original comments criticizing Lopez's statements to the effect that domestic animals are genetically ignorant. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 1-SEP-1998 07:31:23.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: chicken brains Re: Discussion on domesticated animal intelligence. Chickens (most domesticated fowl, it seems), have a reputation for being "stupid". I'd like to pass on an observation that I'd like to contribute to this discussion: First, one must visualize the intensive production conditions that most domesticated poultry (especially in North America) are raised in. Low light conditions, limited physical movement and "sterile" (lack of stimuli or environmental complexity). These factors are not conducive to neurological development. I worked with chickens taken from intensive conditions (battery cages) at 10 weeks of age. At 10 weeks, they could have been described as "flighty", stupid, nervous and they had difficulty perching. Daily contact, handling, vocalizations and environmental complexity produced birds by 22 weeks that behaved very similar to pet birds like psittacines. (No, I did not do IQ testing although it would have been interesting to apply some of Irene Pepperidge's techniques to these birds). We have to remember how great a role we have, not only in genetic selection, but in environment in producing animals that we then make statements re: speciated behaviours. Postnote: Most of my birds were adopted out to a small chicken farm and a small group went to a family. The effects of handling and environmental complexity have endured. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Mills" 1-SEP-1998 07:34:17.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Dirk Lebelt Does anyone have an e-mail address for Dirk lebelt? The last I heard I think he was in Munich, but I'm not sure where he has moved to. Thanks in advance Daniel Mills dmills@dmu.ac.uk From: IN%"jkincaid@unix.kawartha.com" 1-SEP-1998 07:51:17.40 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Various Observations Racer-Reynolds Illustration wrote: > > KAKerby@aol.com wrote: > > > Re. canid killing sprees: I'd be interested to know if this behavioral pattern > > extends to other groups.(snip) > > Oh happy day! Another fellow lister who wants to play with some of > these fun ideas. > Re: the 'sprees' - Certainly (as you said) other species besides > canines engage in this practice. A good question comes up then: Do all > species share the same 'reasons' for surplus killing? Or, are the > reasons (and the circumstances that trigger the sprees) as different > as the species? > > > Re. domestic vs. wild intelligence:(snip) > > And as I said above, it may be that the domesticated animals have turned their > > gray matter towards issues that are more common in their immediate > > environment, such as how to turn that feed trough over, instead of how to > > avoid looking like lunch. > > > Just to lure the issue back to the "lion's den" - the word that caused > great concern for our sheep friends was Lopez's use of 'ignorance' (of > domestics), not intelligence (or, lack of)....Big difference really > (and since we know how the nuances of words can carry some heavy > weight)..... > Ignorance is defined as "a lack of knowlege or learning"......Not an > issue of having more or less brain power...but a situation where > having 'appropriate' knowlege (to danger, for the sake of our thread) > may define the outcome to a situation. The larger question then: How > is knowlege of how to avoid an attack by a predator passed on? How > much of this knowlege comes from "instinct"? How much is learned? > > > Re the predator/prey dance:(snip).. If we look, then, to animals > > for whom body language is their main vehicle for conveying messages and > > intent, I would be extremely surprised to find that such cues aren't involved. > > A Russian research project looked at the question of how predators > select their prey using released borzoi dogs as stand-ins for wolves. > (Zoological Journal in 1990, V.E.Sokolov, A.S.Severtsev and A.V. > Shubkina of the Severtsev Institute of Evolutionary Morphology and > Animal Ecology in Moscow). The dogs ran in a small pack and were > observed hunting in Old World antelope herds. > They learned that the dogs were indeed taking down primarily the sick, > diseased and the weak (carcasses of the antelope were recovered and > necropsied), but were were left mystified as to what signals were > advertising the best picks. > Speculations ran from subtleties of locomotion or behavior - "a hitch > in gait or panic in the closing moments of the chase" > However, "the most important new results we have received show that > the mechanism of prey-choosing may look like the following: Every > individual prey that is unhealthy or pressed because of another reason > is stressed. The early stages of the stress process provokes a change > in the quantity of normal skin bacteria in the prey. Stressed > individuals have the strongest odor. The strength of the odor serves > as reinforcement for the predator while searching for prey." > > A strong case for wearing your under-arm deodorant! > > I'm still digging around for info on how common surplus killing sprees > are and what sorts of body language cues are recognized by > researchers. (Am awaiting feedback from Mech) > > Now a question to those on this list....Are there many (any) on the > list interested in the findings of this recent 'obsession' of mine? > Shall I post what I find/what Mech says or switch this topic now to > the private emails? > > Best, > Donna Reynolds > Lindsay Wildlife Museum > Walnut Creek,CA Hi Donna; Please don't switch to private emails or if you decide to please include me in your mailings. The Inuit of northern Canada have also long held the belief that there is an agreement among predator prey species and as in the Russian experience it was shown that the prey taken were in some way diseased. No visible signs(of disease) were noted. From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 1-SEP-1998 09:27:54.90 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: AW in less developed countries There was a discussion a couple of months ago on animal welfare in less developed countries and the fact that we cannot preach aggressively to people who are starving. I said then that there are many situations where improving welfare will improve performance of animals and therefore their value to people - that eliminating the worst cruelty should be mutually beneficial to animals and people and that people can be told this in the spirit of 'enlightened self-interest' rather than preaching. There is an excellent article in the new issue of Applied Animal Behaviour Science which puts flesh on my guesswork: McCrindle CME (1998) The community development approach to animal welfare: an African perspective. AABS 59, 227-233. It is talking primarily about the role of vets, and saying that the approach should be 'people-centred rather than animal-centred. It looks, therefore, at the benefits that accrue to people when the well-being of animals is improved as well as the benefits that accrue to animals when the well-being of people is improved.' Suggestions for how to achieve this, and examples of where it has occurred, are given. Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"cnicipor@hotmail.com" "Clarissa N." 1-SEP-1998 12:50:01.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: rat vocalization Hi, I've been reading to this list messages for some time and would like now to become a more active subscriber. I'm a veterinary student from Brazil working on some ethology experiments, such as the emission of ultrassonic calls by adult rat and mother-infant interations in the guinea pig. I've had some strange results when detecting the ultrassonic calls of male rats after handling and touch. Therefore I wanted to know if anyone in this list has some experience on this subject. Thanks in advance, Clarissa Niciporciukas Veterinary Student Universidade de Sao Paulo Sao Paulo, Brazil ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"mop21872@mail.telepac.pt" 1-SEP-1998 14:58:45.37 To: IN%"UASR@MyList.net" CC: IN%"ufolist@riskers.org", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" Subj: Hi Everyone I'm sorry if I caused any problem to the list due to my email "crash". Well, I think everything is normal now, so if its possible, I'd like to recieve the mail from the list... I miss you!!!!! See ya soon, I hope :) Joana Hancock From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 1-SEP-1998 15:11:18.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Varous Observations W. Ray Stricklin wrote: > > I completely agree that the word "ignorance" is an antonym for > knowledge and learning. But the above presentation has quite a bit > of "White House spin" in its careful and selected use of words. White House spin? Aw gee...you caught me....I've been taking rhetoric lessons from the big boys on the hill (kidding...joke) > The original quote from Lopez (presented again below) _does_ very > clearly state that he thinks that sheep (and other domestic animals) > have had their "intelligence" diminished through artificial > selection. Here is the original quote as presented to this Discussion Group: > >Barry Lopez in "Of Wolves and Men" offers: "The > >conversation of death falters noticeably with domestic stock. They > >have had the conversation of death bred out of them: they do not > >know how to encounter wolves. A horse, for example - a large > >animal as capable as a moose of cracking a wolf's ribs or splitting > >its head open with a kick-will usually panic and run... "(This) > >apparent compulsion is perhaps not so much slaughter as a failure on > >the part of the sheep to communicate anything at all - resistance, > >mutual respect, appropriateness - to the wolf. The wolf has > >initiated a sacred ritual and met with ignorance." Ray, I think you and I are looking at the same sentences, but with different color lenses. I have re-read this passage twenty times now and I cannot see where he speaks specifically of genetics in reference to having "the conversation of death bred out of them".....Maybe that is indeed exactly what he means....but this passage may also be referring to an animal's disadvantaged ability to deal with predators due to being bred (raised) in artificial environments.....An 'ignorance' created by the circumstances of the agri settings. In either case, the fact remains that domestic animals are usually at a serious disadvantage when encountering wild predators (referring to those that are not confined, where the reasons for the disadvantages are obvious). > > I would point out that Lopez's wording that sheep "fail to > communicate anything at all - resistance, mutual respect, > appropriateness - to the wolf" can easily be extrapolated to "the > sheep does not care what happens to it." That seems too big a leap of logic to me. An animal that is unable (for whatever reason) to respond appropriately to danger should not be automatically judged as being disinterested in its own survival. An opossum waddling down the road may be unable to avoid getting hit by a speeding automobile, but that doesn't mean he is indifferent (doesn't "care") to the experience. Hence, my statement that if > one accepts Lopez's model that the domestic animal is genetically a > greatly diminished caricature of its wild counterpart, then at some > point the study of welfare of domestic animals is not necessary. > Welfare questions become redundant because according to this model > these animals "don't communicate anything" because they are not > genetically capable of "caring" when they are attacked by a predator. > The question then would become, how could these animals care about > something so insignificant as living in a cage? I admire your passion for wanting to safeguard the reputations of domestic animals for the purposes of futhering animal welfare concerns. And, I support your reasons for red-flagging language what might only serve to diminish domestics as inferior beasts. But I do not personally believe that Lopez's passage is a good case in point for your argument. I really think Lopez was more interested in the "language" between wild predators and their prey, than he is in pointing a finger at domestics as being "less than" their wild. cousins. If Lopez does stand up at some point and admit to thinking domestics are just useless dummies - I may jump all over him along with you! In the meantime - I still find the subject of predators' selection of prey and the signals involved extremely fascinating. At this point, with all due respect Ray, we may have to agree to disagree. Note to other listers: I'm getting lots of private feedback that tells me many are interested in the topic of predator/prey "communications" and the particulars of surplus hunting, especially with regards to Mech's perspectives. I will post it as it arrives. In the meantime, I would absolutely love to hear what others may have dug up on the topic. Best to All, Donna Reynolds Lindsay Wildlife Museum Walnut Creek, CA ---------------------- > W. Ray Stricklin > University of Maryland From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 1-SEP-1998 18:39:23.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Oops (Re: Various...) > In either case, the fact remains that domestic animals are usually at > a serious disadvantage when encountering wild predators (referring to > those that are not confined, where the reasons for the disadvantages > are obvious). Oops - this came out a little jumbled.....It should have read "referring to those that are not confined....instead of the confined examples....where the reasons for disadvantages are obvious." Ugh - I gotta get myself away from the computer! -Donna From: IN%"KAKerby@aol.com" 1-SEP-1998 21:10:18.92 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: More observations Here I go again; please bear with me because it's rare that I'm able to 'talk shop' like this, since I'm not currently employed in the animal field......... Re. body language and predator response: While I was working on a horse farm, one of the studs was being viewed for sale. He was being put through all his paces, and was being watched by myself, his owner, the vet doing the inspection, and the potential buyer. This animal was getting a little older, but his coat still gleamed like a new copper penny, he was beautifully proportioned, and he looked great to my amateur horseman's eye. But as I watched the others watching him, I could discern a furrowed brow, a critical wince, an undecided grimace. And when the horse was put back in his stall, the potential buyer was undecided. She 'couldn't put her finger on it', but she didn't like his gait while trotting. Now, for those of you out there who know horses, the trot is where a horse's soundness can best be judged. After the buyer had gone, the vet and the owner discussed what they had seen. The owner had been concerned for some time that the horse had felt a little stiff while being ridden, and the right rear leg didn't seem to have quite the same range of movement as it should. The vet concurred, saying that she'd seen clear indications of interference in the hock movement, indicative of early arthritic degredation, and she accurately predicted other joint involvement which was confirmed with further exam. What are the lessons here? 1) I was watching the horse from a viewpoint of admiration; and completely missed his hampered gait. It was my observations of the other observers that told me something was wrong. 2) The buyer, who was about to invest a huge amount in this horse, was observing from a completely different perspective; she wanted something as close to perfect as possible, and was seeing aberrations. The seller, who already had a tremendous investment in this horse, also saw aberrations, but despite her intimate familiarity with this horse, couldn't pin it down. 3) The vet, whose livelihood depended upon her knowledge of an animal's movements, had enough experience to immediately determine that this animal was in fact impaired, and could deduce other things about him based on 5 minutes' worth of observations. I suspect, based on this anecdotal example and many more, that predators do in fact glean a great deal of information about potential prey animals from observations, even over a very small amount of time. In this example they are much like the vet; their livelihood depends on it. I further suspect that as a predator gains experience, they fine-tune their observations to be looking for the right things. I was watching a glossy horse run by; the buyer and seller were watching for symmetry in movement; the vet was watching individual body parts and how they moved or didn't move as compared to species norms. If I were the predator, you bet I would have been focusing my attention on the details that mattered. And finally, this sort of knowledge may be passed down not merely by genetics, but also by the environment. I immediately knew something was up by observing the others; a young predator could watch his/her conspecifics during a hunt, determine who they are watching, and over time perhaps start to watch for the same details. Well, I must really learn not to take these things so seriously; my smoke alarm just went off, and I suddenly remembered I'd gotten dinner going, then forgot all about it when I started reading email!! I guess I should go rescue the remains of my dinner, and let you good people go do your various other tasks. Thanks for being a gracious (even if captive) audience. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 1-SEP-1998 22:36:32.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Can Predators Count? I am inclined to leave Ray, mantled over the carcass of Lopez' pretentious text and before he gets his sharp text pecker's beak into the semantics of 'breeding'. The proposition that giving a puppy more that two items to chew (without punishment in any form) is to invite it to regard all items as 'legitimately' chewable., has been around for some years. That is to say 'dogs cannot count' above '2' or '3'. [I am not defending this assertion] Ordinarily the predator would succeed in pulling down an individual prey. The social group of co-operative predators would join in securing and dissecting the prey. After watching all the real and faked animal movies of these activities I do not have the sense of any budget or portion control mechanism. What is caught is eaten or taken to the young. I don't think that mummy mentally ticks off the number of infants and nurse adults back at the den. Meantime the prey in its evolutionary landscape escapes away/ up/ under or wherever. It does not sit in a paddock or coop. If it did I suspect that the predator thinks Wow - there you are again! and kills it again and again and again. [I think Mike Appleby made this point and was ignored] Domestication removes the descendants of a wild stock from its ancestral environment (e.g away from the rocky crags, precipitous ravines, dense forests or limitless plains) and into the delimited pasture or pen. In the process their bodies and their brains are changed. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors If a madman were to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards Dr. Samuel Johnson 1776 From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 2-SEP-1998 07:36:54.30 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: Semantics and Breeding On Wed, 02 Sep 1998 05:28:02 +0100 Robin Walker wrote: >... the semantics of 'breeding'. > I have never seen nor heard the phrase "bred out" used in reference to how an animal is "raised." "Bred out" is indeed a reference to the breeding of an animal and thus is always used in reference to phylogeny (nature) and not ontogeny (nurture). I certainly hope that Applied Ethology does not decide that it is now politically correct to use the same phrase when referring to _both_ concepts. Don't think that as a student I could have ever convinced any of my professors that such an interpretation was simply a question of semantics. I shudder when I think of what their responses would have been to such a suggestion. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 2-SEP-1998 07:45:37.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Varous Observations -REPONSE >>> Racer-Reynolds Illustration 01/09/ 10h32 >>> Here is the original quote as presented to this Discussion Group: > >Barry Lopez in "Of Wolves and Men" offers: "The > >conversation of death falters noticeably with domestic stock. They > >have had the conversation of death bred out of them: they do not > >know how to encounter wolves. A horse, for example - a large> >animal as capable as a moose of cracking a wolf's ribs or splitting > >its head open with a kick-will usually panic and run... "(This)> >apparent compulsion is perhaps not so much slaughter as a failure on> >the part of the sheep to communicate anything at all - resistance,> >mutual respect, appropriateness - to the wolf. The wolf has> >initiated a sacred ritual and met with ignorance.">>> BS! All that this quote demonstrates is people's capacity to string a few words together to give the impression of "profondity" while actually saying nothing at all. Wolves and sheep communicating "mutual respect"?! Come on! >>>In either case, the fact remains that domestic animals are usually at a serious disadvantage when encountering wild predators >>> This seems plausible but is it a "fact"? Many domestic animals are white or pink and so have lost some of their camouflage. They are also heavier and probably less fit. It is also plausible that animals have to learn something about predators and the best way of avoiding them. But has anyone actually compared wild and domestic animals (of the same species) in an area with which they are equally familiar and which offers the same opportunities for escape? Someone should be able to do this with chickens. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 2-SEP-1998 08:00:17.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Varous Observations -REPONSE It would be interesting to know whether domestic animals are BETTER than non-domestic ones at interpreting human body language. ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 2-SEP-1998 08:47:58.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Varous Observations -REPONSE -REPONSE >>> "R. Rodd" 02/09/ 09h59 >>> It would be interesting to know whether domestic animals are BETTER than non-domestic ones at interpreting human body language. >>> A very interesting question. Domestic pigs and cattle are no slouches when it comes to recognizing individual people or to adjusting their behaviour according to the behaviour of their handlers. It would also be interesting to know whether a broiler chick living in a flock of several hundred thousand has better social skills than a Jungle fowl living in a flock of 10 or less. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 2-SEP-1998 08:59:14.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Varous Observations -REPONSE It would be interesting to know whether domestic animals are BETTER than non-domestic ones at interpreting human body language. ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 Would not the ability to interpret humans (anything) be an asset for survival for domestic animals? Just as interpreting anything in one's environment is an asset for survival or degree of success in surviving. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 2-SEP-1998 09:25:15.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Breeding - A Royal Opinion When the Australian prankster rushed at HRH Prince Charles some years ago all around him (HRH) ducked when they heard the shots. HRH did not duck. He stood looking by some accounts bemused and by others calmly indifferent. I saw the film and it was hard to tell since our aristocracy have learned not to have facial expressions. It is how they recognise each other and of course how they differ from inferior human clay. When asked why he had remained so calm (this was the form of words but the interlocutor may have meant "why were you too dumb to duck") HRH replied:- "One has a thousand years of breeding" His meaning is quite clear. You can breed superior humans. Part of the commoner's psyche rails against this nonsense All such people have is a set of sequential oil portraits and families who kept their documents. The 'best' kings have almost always been talented usurpers who brained the incompetent incumbent. Another part of the commoner's mind is betrayed into part acquiescence with the notion of royal Blood by what he thinks he knows about the breeding of race horses and excellent gun dogs. So one 'breeds' royalty. Regal behaviour is taught and styled as 'manners'. What? What? Since I do not believe in guillotining ordinary folk the 'royals' are quite safe in my Republic. But in need of employment for which they pass suitable examinations. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors If a madman were to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards Dr. Samuel Johnson 1776 From: IN%"kats@missingpet.org" "Kat Albrecht" 2-SEP-1998 09:57:25.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Prey 1, Predator 0 I thought I would add to the "predator/prey" thread by sharing a search we worked last Friday for a missing domestic indoor/outdoor cat. Grady was an outgoing, in your face cat that shared his home with two humans and two other cats. Grady's owner let Grady out on Thursday morning at 7:00am as she left for work. Housecleaners who cleaned the home at 1000am later reported that during their cleaning time, they did not see ANY of the owners three cats. This was highly unusual because usually Grady or one of the other two were always "in the way" of the housecleaners. The housecleaners also checked their transport van (which carried five people and no hiding place, so no liklihood of Grady having been transported in their car). The house is located in the Santa Cruz mountains on a 40 acre parcel. There are two other houses near by but the owner checked around both houses and talked to owners there who had not seen or heard Grady. Two other cats have disappeared in the area within the last few months, coyotes have been seen in the area on occasion and on the Sunday evening before Grady disappeared, his owner heard a coyote howling in her driveway by her bedroom window (cats kept inside at night). The fact that coyotes are in the area, other cats have disappeared and the housecleaners did not find any cats (indicating something scared cats into hiding) all pointed to a predator. We responded with Rachel (search dog) to check for physical evidence (blood, tufts of fur) in the woods surrounding the house. We were not able to locate any evidence nor were we able to find Grady. The owner (and I) assumed that Grady had been carried off and consumed a further distance from the home. I received a call a day later from Grady's owner who told me that Grady had come home! He was very frightened, thirsty and had come walking home from deep in the woods (from a steep canyon). Our guess is that Grady was probably chased by a predator but made it to a tree. The owner had checked the woods surrounded the house and said that she would have heard Grady howling if he was up a tree. Obviously he must have run further than the owner checked. In my business, it is nice to see the prey come out on the winning end! Kat & Dogs Kathy "Kat" Albrecht Executive Director National Center For Missing Pets *Exciting Search & Rescue Stories *Tips on Finding Lost Pets *Forensic Applications To Missing Pet Investigations *Pet Search & Rescue *If You Own A Pet, Come Visit Us! http://www.missingpet.org From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 2-SEP-1998 10:15:07.44 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Racer-Reynolds Illustration" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Re:Various Observations On Tue, 1 Sep 1998, Racer-Reynolds Illustration wrote: > Oh happy day! Another fellow lister who wants to play with some of > these fun ideas. > Re: the 'sprees' - Certainly (as you said) other species besides > canines engage in this practice. A good question comes up then: Do all > species share the same 'reasons' for surplus killing? Or, are the > reasons (and the circumstances that trigger the sprees) as different > as the species? Perhaps we should define 'surplus killing' (hey, we try to define everything else). From my experience we have found that coyotes who start killing sheep will usually kill only 1 adult sheep a night (or early in the morning) even if one is left over from the previous night's kill. Since there is still plenty of meat on the previously killed carcass perhaps we should consider any additional kills as surplus! Occasionally (but very rarely) we would find coyotes had killed more than 1 adult sheep at a time, perhaps 2 adult ewes in a pasture of 50 - 300 ewes. Never in the 5 years I managed a sheep station did we find what I would consider 'reckless surplus killings' by coyotes. Mind you, we rarely left ewes with lambs out onto pasture because the coyotes were even 'more effecient' killers of lambs. My observations are based on 5 years of experience at the Dixon Springs Experimental Station (University of Illinois) in the heart of Shawnee National Forest. We maintained a flock of roughly 1,000 ewes, a battery of over 100 rams and all their annual lamb crop. Since 1972 (the first reported year of a sheep killed by a coyote at the station), we have documented the annual number of sheep kills, the dates, pasture location, age of sheep, number of trapped and shot coyotes, coyote sightings, etc. etc. The sheep station closed in the early 90s, but I have a number of annual reports if anyone is really interested in this data. For years I wondered what it must have been like for the sheep flock during a coyote hunting attack. Having worked the sheep with border collies on a daily basis and knowing the sheeps' response to the sheep dogs, I had always believed that the sheep must have been in a wild state of panic during a coyote attack. Around 1980 we began a cooperative research project with biologist from Southern Illinois University and began trapping, radio collaring and releasing coyotes (I know that seems like a mortal sin for a sheep manager to release coyotes, but in the interest of science, and the fact that the University owned the sheep and not me - what the heck!). The project was actually quite rewarding and we learned a great deal about coyote ranges within that area, their life expectancy, etc. One summer morning we climbed the 90 ft silo on the station to radio track coyotes. By chance we observed a coyote enter a pasture and proceed to kill a 40 lb lamb. Unlike I had imagined the coyote did not startle the flock. Instead, it focused its entire attention on one lamb, quickly caught the lamb by the throat and killed it. I was much more stunned than the rest of the sheep! There were sheep in the same pasture, within sight of the coyote, that I am certain did not miss a bite of grass during the entire incidence. Unlike the border collie which scans the entire flock with its eyes and focuses on any sheep trying to break from the group, the coyote seemed to focus on one sheep - and this served as a clear signal to the rest of the sheep that they were NOT the focus of attention. I know it was only one observation of a coyote killing a sheep, but for me it left a profound impact on how I believe sheep and cattle are able to preceive whether or not they are the focus of a predator's (or our) attention. It is not by accident that cattle or sheep move away from a person and circle to a side. I believe they strategically place themselves out of a person or predator's trajectory and watch to see if the person or predator re-adjusts their trajectory. If the predator does re-adjust the trajectory, then the sheep or cattle are quick to realize that the gig is up! Back to the original question of whether canids engage in surplus killing? Based on what I have observed I do not believe coyotes engage in surplus killing of sheep. I do believe they can kill any sheep they come across (except for maybe mature rams) and I doubt they spend much time "picking" through the flock to find a weak or sick one. Once they are experienced sheep killers, I think the coyote realizes all sheep are "catchable and killable". They don't spend much time determining whether mice, moles, rats or rabbits are weak and sick so I don't see why they would spend much time determining a weaker condition in other prey. If the prey is close enough and "catchable" and they are hunting - they catch and kill it. My guess would be that IF it is ever shown that canids do in fact kill a higher proportion of weak and sick prey species they do it not by design, but by chance. I would predict that the weak and sick prey are not as alert, not as quick and more often on the periphery of the group and that better explains why they are killed. Re: domestic vs wild species intelligence. Whenever the topic of intelligence of sheep or cattle come up in my discussions with students, I always remind them that sheep are excellent at being sheep and cattle are excellent at being cattle - it is people that have a tough time figuring out sheep and cattle. Take care, Joe ============================ Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 Canada From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 2-SEP-1998 10:21:38.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology Network'" CC: Subj: Domestication Dear All: As some of you know, the process of domestication and its effect on behavior has been one of my primary academic interests for over 30 years. The messages on this topic over the last few days have brought out some interesting points. I thought Bill Campbell's comments on the rate of behavioral development in dogs was particularly interesting - that the process of behavioral maturation can be retarded when owners fail to provide "competent leadership" for their animals and fail to teach their dogs how to "function cohesively within the human group". This observation suggests that neoteny (retention of juvenile characteristics) in dogs may be more malleable than we thought. Could we go as far as proposing that young dogs can be readily conditioned to remain juvenile in their behavior? Any thoughts on that point? It is my opinion that dogs provide our best example of how domestication has resulted in the retention of juvenile behavioral characteristics. The potential for neoteny to occur in wolves may exist but I have not heard of a case where it has happened. I do not know of another domesticated species except sheep in which a case for neoteny can be confidently made and, as Ray Stricklin pointed out, the wild ancestors of domestic sheep also retain juvenile social behaviors until they reach their prime breeding age. A couple of writers have recently popularized the notion that if dogs show neoteny, all domestic animals must be neotenous. In my opinion, that is an incorrect assumption. A couple of comments were made on behavioral traits lost or generated through domestication. To my knowledge, there are no documented accounts in the literature to conclusively support this idea. What has happened is that domestication has sometimes raised (or lowered) thresholds for responding so that a greater or lesser stimulus is necessary to evoke a response. In a few cases, the response threshold has been sufficiently raised that the behavior is not typically seen under "normal" levels of stimulation. For example, domestic Norway rats often will not dig a burrow unless there is something for them to dig under (e.g. stone) to start the process. In contrast, wild Norway rats will dig burrows in the absence of such objects. Those of you interested in domestication may want to take a look at one or more of my review articles on this subject. These papers will direct you to much of the literature on this interesting topic. Price, E.O. 1984. Behavioral aspects of animal domestication. Quarterly Review of Biology 59:1-32. Gon, S.M. & E.O.Price. 1984. Invertebrate domestication: Behavioral considerations.BioScience 34:575-579. Price, E.O. 1998. Behavioral genetics and the process of animal domestication. In: T. Grandin (Ed.) Genetics and the Behavior of Domestic Animals. Academic Press. pp. 31-65. Also, a special edition of Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci. will be coming out in a few months that will include a review paper by myself on "Behavioral development in animals undergoing domestication". Edward Price Department of Animal Science UC Davis, Davis, CA 95616 eoprice@ucdavis.edu From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 2-SEP-1998 10:28:47.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: predator/prey relationships Feral domestic cats sometimes become visibly more shy if they have something wrong with them. I've just been spending a frustrating month trying to catch one of my garden cats who managed to injure her eye. So long as the eye was really bad she wouldn't let me within yards of her and she was extremely wary of the box trap I set up in desperation. As the eye healed (with no intervention from me) she became comparatively tame again. Unfortunately, it's not easy to separate the two variables of my body language ("predatory" eye fixation etc) and Cassie's sense of "self-effectiveness". Cats must be an extreme case of efficiency in evading humans leading to improved reproductive success of a domestic animal. How far would this be true of other domestics? Welsh mountain sheep, maybe? ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 2-SEP-1998 11:09:49.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: 'Coo up!' Joe Stookey writes:- The ability of the prey to learn about the predator was for me demonstrated by the task of extracting either sheep or cows from a shared pasture. For a time I thought there was some mystic dialogue between my collie, the cattle and myself. The stock always seemed to know if I had come for the sheep or the cows and the not required species remained grazing or lying whilst the dog worked among them. Eventually I realised that the key to the matter was the ancient Anglo Saxon call "coo-up" which I always used automatically when fetching up cows. The cows would start to stir and stand and the dog would work to them. The sheep would stay put. When I did not call the cows the sheep got up and made the dog work as hard as usual for them. The cows chewed cud and watched. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors If a madman were to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards Dr. Samuel Johnson 1776 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 2-SEP-1998 11:30:26.70 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Re:Various Observations -REPONSE >>> 02/09/ 12h14 >>> how I believe sheep and cattle are able to preceive whether or not they are the focus of a predator's (or our) attention. >>> Carolyn Ristau did some interesting experiments showing how a prey (a plover) can judge the danger of a predator's approach from gaze direction, direction of movement etc. I have only an old reference (Aspects of the cognitive ethology of an injury-feigning bird, the piping plover, In: Cognitive Ethology, Lawrence Erlbaum 1991) I would be grateful if anyone has more up-to-date references. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 2-SEP-1998 12:14:36.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Various Thanks An enthusiastic 'thank you' for all the responses to the latest thread. So many viewpoints...so much to learn! I am off to the infamous 'Burning Man' festival for the holiday and am already looking forward to getting back and checking my email. I hope by next week to also have some more data to throw into the mix. Best Regards to all my fiesty, thoughtful cyberspace comrads, Donna Reynolds Lindsay Wildlife Museum Walnut Creek, CA From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 2-SEP-1998 13:01:29.54 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Re:Various Observations -REPONSE On Wed, 02 Sep 1998 13:34:18 -0400 Jeff Rushen wrote: > >>> 02/09/ 12h14 >>> > how I believe sheep and cattle are able to preceive > whether or not they are the focus of a predator's (or our) > attention. >>> > > have only an old reference (Aspects of the cognitive > ethology of an injury-feigning bird, the piping plover, In: > Cognitive Ethology, Lawrence Erlbaum 1991) I would be > grateful if anyone has more up-to-date references. > I expect that Joe is generally correct in that wounded, sick, etc. animals are more likely prey in part due to chance and their being forced to the group periphery by peers, etc. This would match Hamilton's (1971) "selfish herd" model of predator aversion. (Jeff, _this_ is an old reference; 1991 is recent!). Predation is not my topic area, but I thought this idea of the prey "telling" the predator to "take me" had come and gone. The last time I recall hearing this was in the mid-1980's - and earlier in the early 1970's. Is it back or did it just never go away? Is it still topical among wildlife researchers? I recall seeing an African wildlife film (within the last couple of years) in which an ungulate (Wildebeest, I believe) had an injured leg and yet was able to survive in a large herd for maybe weeks while peers of prime(?) condition were killed by lions. Also recall another film in which potential African prey essentially paid no attention to lions that were not hunting (apparently detected from the lion's rate and direction of movement, focus of head, and especially the position of tail). This is all anecdotal, and possibly inclusive of some selective film editing, but it was my impression that these ideas had basically been documented and reported. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"bjorn.forkman@zoologi.su.se" "forkman" 2-SEP-1998 13:41:00.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: SV: Re:Various Observations -REPONSE Dear all, I can recommend a very nice study on how sparrows react to being in the = "center of attention" which was done by Rob Hampton a couple of years = ago.=20 Hampton R.R. (1994). Sensitivity to information specifying the line of = gaze of humans in sparrows (Passer domesticus). Behaviour 130 (1-2): = 41-51 Bj=F6rn *************************************************** Bj=F6rn Forkman Dep of Zoology, University of Stockholm 106 91 Stockholm, Sweden +46 (0)8 164048 From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 3-SEP-1998 02:30:22.51 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: ESVCE Conference Sat.3rd Oct.98 Dear Colleague, The ESVCE (European Society of Veterinary Clinical Ethology) holds its annual conference in Brussels the Saturday 3rd of October 1998. You will find more information at: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/981003.html Here's the program. Simultaneous translation from English to French and French to English. Inscription fee: BEF 3500 for ESVCE members, 4500 for non members. 10:00-10:45 Lenny Jelsma: The hyperactive-hypersensitive dog; medication and training techniques (Le syndrome d'hypersensibilité-hyperactivité chez le chien; médication et thérapies) 10:45-11:30 Petra Mertens: Medication on separation related disorders (Médication des troubles anxieux liés à un contexte de séparation) 11:30-12:15 Joël Dehasse: Stratégies thérapeutiques (Therapeutic strategies) 14:00-14:45 Anne Mc Bride: Intraspecific hierarchical disorders in dogs: identification and therapeutic strategies (Troubles hiérarchiques intraspécifiques chez le chien: identification et stratégies thérapeutiques) 14:45-15:30 Claude Beata: Actualités dans les troubles de la hiérarchie (Actualities in hierarchy disorders) 16:00-16:45 Patrick Pageat: Les troubles comportementaux chez le chiot: critères précoces de diagnostic (Behaviour disorders in puppies: criteria for an early diagnosis) 17:00-17:45 ESVCE General Meeting Best regards. Dr Joel Dehasse (dvm) - ESVCE Treasurer and Membership Secretary http://www.ethovet.com From: IN%"C.Dwyer@ed.sac.ac.uk" "cathy dwyer" 3-SEP-1998 02:34:28.90 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Re:Various Observations Dear Joe and others Your comments about prey selection in coyotes reminded me of a paper - Gluesing et al (1980) in Appled Animal Ethology (vol. 6). They looked at the behaviour of a flock of over 600 ewes and 900 lambs in Montana that was predated by coyotes. About 1% of the flock were killed by coyotes. It seemed that coyotes were more likely to kill lambs that limped (or moved abnormally) or whose mothers were limping. However, they also were more likely to kill singles than twins, and the more active of a pair of siblings if twins were killed. These animals played mfrequently and were often a long way from their mothers. They concluded that what these animals had in common was an increased likelihood of being on the periphery of the group and that determined prey selection by the coyote rather than any behavioural characteristic of the animal. Seems to support your prediction! > Back to the original question of whether canids engage in surplus killing? > Based on what I have observed I do not believe coyotes engage in surplus > killing of sheep. I do believe they can kill any sheep they come across > (except for maybe mature rams) and I doubt they spend much time "picking" > through the flock to find a weak or sick one. Once they are experienced > sheep killers, I think the coyote realizes all sheep are "catchable and > killable". They don't spend much time determining whether mice, moles, > rats or rabbits are weak and sick so I don't see why they would spend much > time determining a weaker condition in other prey. If the prey is close > enough and "catchable" and they are hunting - they catch and kill it. My > guess would be that IF it is ever shown that canids do in fact kill a > higher proportion of weak and sick prey species they do it not by design, > but by chance. I would predict that the weak and sick prey are not as > alert, not as quick and more often on the periphery of the group and that > better explains why they are killed. Cathy _________________________________________________ Dr Cathy Dwyer, Behavioural Sciences, Animal Biology Division SAC, Bush Estate, Penicuik, EH26 0PH Scotland, UK tel. 0131-535 3228 fax. 0131-535 3121 email C.Dwyer@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@nlh10.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" 3-SEP-1998 06:24:39.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Domestic fowl's ability to detect dead bodies Dear all, A few days ago a cock (domestic fowl) was used to find a dead man in a lake. The cock was placed in a box on the floor of a small boat.The boat searched over a lake to find a missing man who was suspected to be drowned some days earlier. The cock called (crowed) when the boat approached the dead body. It appears that cocks have been used a number of times to find dead bodies in Norway, even in ancient times. It is said than hens could not be used, only cocks. Four journalists have asked me to give an explanation of this phenomenon. Does anyone know more about such behaviour in cocks? Has any scientific study focussed on this? The cock in the present example could not see anything. The most natural biological explanation I can come up with is that the cock might have detected olfactory cues from the dead body, as part of an ability to find decaying dead animals for eating. On the lake few other olfactory signals would interfer with this scavenge cue. The crowing may have been a food signal to the hens in their flock. If this works generally, then cocks could be used (perhaps after some training) to find dead bodies, perhaps even missing dogs and cats. Bjarne ********************************************************** Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) Associate Professor of Ethology Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 http://www.nlh.no/Institutt/IHF/presside/Braastad.htm ********************************************************** From: IN%"magnus@zool.su.se" "Magnus Enquist" 3-SEP-1998 07:02:17.33 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dear collegue, I am Dr. Magnus Enquist at the division of ethology, department of zoology, university of Stockholm. We are working on stimulus-response relationships and their importance in evolution. Right now we are trying to review the effect of novel stimulation including phenomena such as supernormal stimuli and peak shift. One thing we want to include is the effect of new stimulations on reproductive investment. Our questions is whether it is true that music or any other kind of stimulation can increase productivity such as milk production. Where can we read such experiments? Best Regards Magnus Enquist ------------------------ Ethology, Department of Zoology University of Stockholm S-106 91 Stockholm Sweden Tel +46 8 16 40 55 (home: +46 8 730 21 06) Fax +46 8 16 77 15 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 3-SEP-1998 08:33:57.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: animals/humans > > It would be interesting to know whether domestic animals are BETTER than > > non-domestic ones at interpreting human body language. > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Rosemary Rodd > > Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre > > Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 > > > > > > Would not the ability to interpret humans (anything) be an asset for > > survival for domestic animals? Just as interpreting anything in > > one's environment is an asset for survival or degree of success in > > surviving. > > > > Deb > > ---------------------------------------------------------------- > > Well, it depends of in what environment the domestic animal is going to > live. If it is going to live with human people it s whole life we can talk > about it is a asset > Laia Exactly. And it would differ depending on the extent of the interaction. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 3-SEP-1998 08:37:55.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: choosing animals to domesticate > Great question! > > My own hunch is that we choose for domestication the very critters that can > "read" our signals and select out those that do not. We likely see as > "smart" the ones that give the best match to our own psych adaptations for > contact comfort, grooming, hierarchic cooperation, etc. > > Jim Brody Jim: How does the fascination with exotic animals as pets fit into this? Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"jnm13@cus.cam.ac.uk" 3-SEP-1998 11:44:24.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Change of address Dear All, For those who are interested, as from two days ago, my address changed! My new address is: School of Agriculture, De Montfort University, Caythorpe Court, Caythorpe, Grantham, Lincolnshire, NG32 3EP, UK Tel +44 1400 272521 Fax +44 1400 272722 I haven't yet got an e-mail address organised, but it is likely to be either jnmarchant or jmarchant@dmu.ac.uk Mail sent recently to either of my two old addresses below have been or will be recieved! Jeremy ************************************************************************ Jeremy N. Marchant, BSc(Hons), PhD, CBiol, MIBiol, University of Cambridge, ADAS Terrington, Dept. of Clinical Veterinary Medicine, & Terrington St. Clement, Madingley Road, King's Lynn, Cambridge, CB3 0ES, UK. Norfolk, PE33 0TP, UK. jnm13@cus.cam.ac.uk ************************************************************************ From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 3-SEP-1998 12:20:34.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: imprinting in mammals Does anybody know of any recent (i.e. since 1990) references that have looked at imprinting in mammals? I have done all the usual searches but have come up with very little. I would be grateful for any help. thanks Jeff Rushen ***************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108E, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada. J1M 1Z3 Ph: 1-(819)-5659174 ext 206 Fax: 1-(819)-5645507 Email: RUSHENJ@EM.AGR.CA ***************************************** From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 3-SEP-1998 12:42:19.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: A term for the sounds we use to get an animal's attention When we are trying to attract the attention of an animal or summon a dog, we pucker our lips and smack them together as though we were "kissing". Does anyone know if there is a word that exists for this calling? If not, I would welcome any suggestions at how to describe this in a less complicated manner and in fewer words... Thank-you, Chantal Gaboury To respond directly to me: cgaboury@total.net From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "Margaret (Peggy) Shunick" 3-SEP-1998 13:49:45.84 To: IN%"cgaboury@total.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A term for the sounds we use to get an animal's attention Chantal, What an interesting and fun question. I have frequently heard this behavior referred to as "chirpping", but I suspect terms are heavily influenced by local cultures. I would check out the literature from human psychology on parenting (especially intuitive parenting) or attachment (but this is a huge category). Perhaps this behavior has a real name! There is a common paradigm for looking at infant emotions where mothers are asked to modify their facial expressions. Infant responses are the dependent variable; and I think it's called face-to-face or still face. Good luck. Peggy ---------- > When we are trying to attract the attention of an animal or summon a > dog, we pucker our lips and smack them together as though we were > "kissing". Does anyone know if there is a word that exists for this > calling? If not, I would welcome any suggestions at how to describe this > in a less complicated manner and in fewer words... > Thank-you, > Chantal Gaboury > To respond directly to me: cgaboury@total.net > From: IN%"clinton@consumersgas.com" 3-SEP-1998 14:35:26.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Feral Domesticated Cats I am looking for information on these cats, as I have an INDOOR feral domesticated cat, and she is a very interesting research subject. I would like to talk to people that have any info on this type of cat, and hopefully aquire some more reseach info. Thanks in advance Catherine pls email clinton@consumersgas.com From: IN%"ernest.olfert@sask.usask.ca" "Ernest Olfert" 3-SEP-1998 14:47:43.45 To: IN%"clinton@consumersgas.com" "Catherine Linton" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Feral Domesticated Cats I have two websites bookmarked on feral cats: Alley Cat Allies http://www.alleycat.org/ Feral Cat Coalition http://www.feralcat.com/ Check them out. Lots of info and links to related sites. Catherine Linton wrote: > I am looking for information on these cats, as I have an INDOOR feral > domesticated cat, and she is a very interesting research subject. I > would like to talk to people that have any info on this type of cat, > and hopefully aquire some more reseach info. > Thanks in advance > Catherine > pls email clinton@consumersgas.com -- Bye for now. Ernest D. Olfert Ernest D. Olfert, DVM, MSc Director, Animal Resources Centre University of Saskatchewan 120 Maintenance Road Saskatoon, SK S7N 5C4 Canada telephone: 306-966-4124 fax: 306-966-8850 email: ernest.olfert@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"clinton@consumersgas.com" 3-SEP-1998 15:55:25.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re[2]: Feral Domesticated Cats My cat is an INDOOR spayed feral domesticated cat. I found her in the Humane Society as a very, very young kitten, and took her home. She was introduced to my other cat, who is 6 and has had kittens of her own and since been spayed, but she is very motherly. The two took to each other right away, and have been close ever since. My feral cat has NEVER been abused, never smacked for discipline, I use my voice. She has been loved and babied. She still has tendencies to let her feralness come out. I figured that her parents may have been feral cats. If slightly disturbed by noise or strangers, she flies off the deep end, screaming and howling. She allows no one to touch her except myself and my fiance. She has recently hurt her leg and will not allow my other cat near her, she hisses and growls at her, and for some reason my my friendly cat is reacting to my feral cat with violence, she will jump on her and bite, which only makes my feral cat even more upset. I have had to seperate them, which I've never had to do. I was hoping to get some info on how to deal with her mood swings, and to get the two to be friends again. Any suggestions? Thanks Catherine ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________ Subject: Re: Feral Domesticated Cats Author: Ernest Olfert at Internet Date: 9/3/98 2:48 PM I have two websites bookmarked on feral cats: Alley Cat Allies http://www.alleycat.org/ Feral Cat Coalition http://www.feralcat.com/ Check them out. Lots of info and links to related sites. Catherine Linton wrote: > I am looking for information on these cats, as I have an INDOOR feral > domesticated cat, and she is a very interesting research subject. I > would like to talk to people that have any info on this type of cat, > and hopefully aquire some more reseach info. > Thanks in advance > Catherine > pls email clinton@consumersgas.com -- Bye for now. Ernest D. Olfert Ernest D. Olfert, DVM, MSc Director, Animal Resources Centre University of Saskatchewan 120 Maintenance Road Saskatoon, SK S7N 5C4 Canada telephone: 306-966-4124 fax: 306-966-8850 email: ernest.olfert@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 3-SEP-1998 18:21:22.33 To: IN%"clinton@consumersgas.com" "Catherine Linton" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Re[2]: Feral Domesticated Cats Catherine-- If your "feral" cat was obtained as a "very very young" kitten, her problems may be related more to hand feeding than to possibly being born in the wild. Just how young was she? Did you have to hand feed her? Kittens who are hand fed from a very young age are known to be prone to "neuroses" in later life--I have one neurotic hand fed cat myself, having bottle fed her from about 3 days of age. Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== I am always willing to learn, however I do not always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 4-SEP-1998 01:29:57.30 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Dr. James Serpell Please can someone let me have Dr. James Serpells e-mail. Thank you in anticipation. Glynne Anderson ********************************************************* NAME: GLYNNE ANDERSON CANINE ACADEMY ADDRESS: 32 Hospital Rd., Hillcrest, 3610, KwaZulu Natal, South Africa. TEL./FAX.: 27 (031) 7651958 E-MAIL: k9acad@iafrica.com WWW: http://users.iafrica.com/k/k9/k9acad ************************************************************ From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 4-SEP-1998 02:13:43.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A term for the sounds we use to get an animal's attention Chantal > When we are trying to attract the attention of an animal or summon a > dog, we pucker our lips and smack them together as though we were > "kissing". Does anyone know if there is a word that exists for this > calling? Well, people do it to each other, too - usually near each other's cheeks and sometimes accompanied by those extraordinary 'Mmwuh' sounds. It is then sometimes referred to as Air kissing. Any use? Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" 4-SEP-1998 02:33:41.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Journal policies on publications and abstracts Dear Ethology listers I recently found out that the journal Animal Behaviour (AB) would not consider publications which had had abstracts published before in proceedings (like those of the ISAE). Usually journals demand originality and no prior publication but, as far as I am (was) aware, do not count abstracts and summaries from conferences as 'prior publication'. Apparently this is a long standing policy of AB and one that is enforced whenever they are aware of a previous abstract (appearing in any form where an ISBN no. has been granted). This is not mentioned in the Instructions to Authors and, as a quick look through the ISAE proceedings and recent AB issues shows, is generally not known by most authors and referees. Has anyone else had this experience, or know of other journals which carry this policy? Regards Birte ______________________________________ Birte L Nielsen Dept. of Animal Health and Wefare Research Centre Foulum P.O. Box 50 DK-8830 Tjele Denmark Phone: (+45) 8999 1373 Fax: (+45) 8999 1500 Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk From: IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk" "Nigel Goodwin" 4-SEP-1998 02:37:35.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A term for the sounds we use to get an animal's attenti > When we are trying to attract the attention of an animal or summon a > dog, we pucker our lips and smack them together as though we were > "kissing". Does anyone know if there is a word that exists for this > calling? Can't provide you with a word for it off the top of my head, but your question did set me wondering why it's used so often and why it seems to work. I reckon it's because the sound contains very high frequencies which register strongly within the hearing range of domestic species. Breathing in through puckered lips (not actually whistling, but making a soft high-pitched noise) used to make our cat go ballistic and run for cover, so the sound must have been much more irritating to her ears than to human ones. Cat-lovers will be relieved to hear that we didn't carry out this apparent torture any more after we discovered its effect - it was just rather curious at the time! Nigel From: IN%"nwaran@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Natalie Waran" 4-SEP-1998 03:14:00.46 To: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "Birte Lindstrom Nielsen" CC: IN%"To: '\sapplied-ethology@sask.usask.ca\s' " Subj: RE: Journal policies on publications and abstracts Birte We had a similiar experience with Veterinary Record recently!! Natalie Waran From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 4-SEP-1998 03:19:50.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: A term for the sounds we use to get an animal's attention Chantal Gaboury wrote: > > When we are trying to attract the attention of an animal or summon a > dog, we pucker our lips and smack them together as though we were > "kissing". Does anyone know if there is a word that exists for this > calling? If not, I would welcome any suggestions at how to describe this > in a less complicated manner and in fewer words... > Thank-you, > Chantal Gaboury Chantal, For a very nice description of sounds used in animal training and their various effects on animal behavior, see Patricia McConnell's article cited below. She uses the terms "smooches" and "lip smooches"--you probably wont find much better than that. McConnell PB (1990). Lessons from animal trainers: The effect of acoustic structure on an animal's response. In P Bateson & P Klopfer (Eds) "Perspectives in Ethology." New York: Plenum Press. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA From: IN%"Linda.Keeling@hmh.slu.se" "Linda Keeling" 4-SEP-1998 04:00:16.02 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dates for Nordic ISAE meeting This mail is intended for Nordic members of the International Society for Applied Ethology. The dates for the next Nordic meeting (officially called the 11th Nordic ISAE Symposium) will be Wednesday 27th until Friday 29th January 1999. It will start on the Wednesday afternoon and end at Friday lunch, so there should be time for most people to travel on these days. It will be held at a small conference centre just outside Skara, Sweden and there is sufficient accommodation for people to say at the centre (that is if there are similar numbers to last year in Tune). Detailed information will be sent out at the end of September. Best wishes, Linda Keeling From: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 4-SEP-1998 04:26:47.78 To: IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk" "Nigel Goodwin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: A term for the sounds we use to get an animal's attenti On Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:37:09 +0000 (GMT0BST) Nigel Goodwin wrote: > From: Nigel Goodwin > Date: Fri, 04 Sep 1998 09:37:09 +0000 (GMT0BST) > Subject: Re: A term for the sounds we use to get an animal's attenti > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > > > When we are trying to attract the attention of an animal or summon a > > dog, we pucker our lips and smack them together as though we were > > "kissing". Does anyone know if there is a word that exists for this > > calling? > > Can't provide you with a word for it off the top of my head, but your > question did set me wondering why it's used so often and why it seems > to work. I reckon it's because the sound contains very high > frequencies which register strongly within the hearing range of > domestic species. Breathing in through puckered lips (not actually > whistling, but making a soft high-pitched noise) used to make our cat > go ballistic and run for cover, so the sound must have been much more > irritating to her ears than to human ones. Cat-lovers will be > relieved to hear that we didn't carry out this apparent torture any > more after we discovered its effect - it was just rather curious at > the time! > > Nigel Interesting comment about the cat's reaction - I've also found that rats HATE being 'kissed'. Their typical reaction is to jump and then 'freeze'. They respond much better to a cluck or the sound often written as 'tsk tsk. Catriona**************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 4-SEP-1998 05:50:53.30 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Dr. James Serpell's e-mail address Thank you very much to all who responded with Dr. Serpell's e-mail. Most grateful. Regards Glynne Anderson. From: IN%"miklosa@ludens.elte.hu" 4-SEP-1998 07:05:13.87 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Domestic animals and body language Dear All, reading some recent email I came across the question whether domiestic animals are better in redaing human body language. As you might now there a lots of examples that show that domestic animals are very good at this. The most famous one is about Clever Hans (Kluger Hans), a horse that was able to learn the significance of subtle body movements of humans. This ability was uncounciously used by his trainers to get aswers from the horse to questions like 2+2=? etc . Ref. Pfungst, O. The horse of van Osten. Interestingly there is very little research on this kind of interspecific "sign reading". Laboratory reared monkeys are generally bad in this they have serious problems of learning signals like pointing or headturning as a cue for finding food on the left or the right (Anderson et al. Anim. Behav. 1995/6?) They can not use glancing of humans as a cue. This is in contrast with experiments in chimpanzees and orangutans (and of course humans childern). However it turned out that monkeys can use each other direction of head turn to localize food (Tomasello et al 1998 Anim. Behav.) and there their failure to attend to human cuing was related to their avoidance to look into the face of the experimenter (might also be realted to "predator avoidabnce". Most people have the impression that dogs are good in this. Indeed, in a recent experiment we found that dogs can learn the significance not only of pointing (most of the dogs (adults) knew the significance of pointing already) but they also learnt very fsat how to find food on the basis of directional head turning, nodding, even glancing (only eye movements). This would mean that dogs are more similar to apes and humans than to monkeys. (Miklosi et al. 1998 Animal Cognition, in press). Without going into detail one can also see that is is not simple to compare "domesticated" and " wild" or even "tamed" animals, and there are meny contributing factors which might enhance in one species the ability to respond to human body language! All the best ADAM Adam Miklosi Dept. of Ethology Hunagry, God, Javorka S 14. 2131 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 4-SEP-1998 07:24:35.58 To: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk", IN%"nwaran@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: odd Journal policies Most editors of scientific journals are peculiarly idiosyncratic. My explanation is that becoming an editor stimulates some primordial, innate lust for power. Most editors are sufficiently decent people to not let this affect their actions in any important way. Instead, they express this by establishing a number of odd, minor policies that have no function other than to communicate their power and dominance and to keep authors in their place. (Not to long ago one journal in animal science wouldn't let authors talk of percentages but only of proportions). These policies rarely improve the world in any detectable way and can usually be harmlessly complied with or subverted, depending on your tolerance for risk. Developing tactics to subvert such policies is part of the training to be a researcher, and such skills often prove useful in other avenues of life. Jeff Rushen (one-time editor) >>> Natalie Waran 04/09/ 06h13 >>> Birte We had a similiar experience with Veterinary Record recently!! Natalie Waran From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 4-SEP-1998 07:26:08.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Journal policies on publications and abstracts -REPONSE I wasn=27t aware of such a policy. Most other journals I know exempt = conference abstracts from being considered as prior publication. It sounds = like an absurd and irrational policy to me. Many societies publish = abstracts as a matter of course, using the publication as the conference = proceedings, so we have no choice as to whether or not the abstract is = published. It seems silly to say that an experiment cannot be presented at = such a conference if you want the article published in Animal Behaviour. I = suggest you check that this really is the policy (I find it hard to = beleive) and if it is, complain=21 We all should. In the meantime, make = sure there is no hint in the paper that the abstract has been published=21 Jeff Rushen >>> Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen 04/09/ 04h30 >>> Dear Ethology listers I recently found out that the journal Animal Behaviour (AB) would not consider publications which had had abstracts published before in proceedings (like those of the ISAE). Usually journals demand originality and no prior publication but, as far as I am (was) aware, do not count abstracts and summaries from conferences as =27prior publication=27. Apparently this is a long standing policy of AB and one that is enforced whenever they are aware of a previous abstract (appearing in any form where an ISBN no. has been granted). This is not mentioned in the Instructions to Authors and, as a quick look through the ISAE proceedings and recent AB issues shows, is generally not known by most authors and referees. Has anyone else had this experience, or know of other journals which carry this policy? =20 Regards Birte =20 ______________________________________ Birte L Nielsen Dept. of Animal Health and Wefare Research Centre Foulum P.O. Box 50 DK-8830 Tjele Denmark Phone: (+45) 8999 1373 Fax: (+45) 8999 1500 Email: birte.nielsen=40agrsci.dk =20 From: IN%"smillman@uoguelph.ca" "Suzanne Millman" 4-SEP-1998 08:03:26.25 To: IN%"smillman@APS.UoGuelph.CA" CC: Subj: RE: Domestic fowl's ability to detect dead bodies (fwd) ---------- Forwarded message ---------- Date: Fri, 4 Sep 1998 08:44:34 EDT From: IAN DUNCAN To: Suzanne Millman Subject: Re: Domestic fowl's ability to detect dead bodies (fwd) Suzanne, Would you please reply on my behalf :- I think the abilities of domestic fowl go much further than finding dead bodies. You will recall that the moving entrails of a DEAD chicken PREDICTED the murder of Julius Caeser 2,000 years ago. I think there will be more money to be made in predicting events than in finding objects (especially useless objects like dead bodies). Ian J.H. Duncan From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" 4-SEP-1998 09:05:31.18 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Feral Domesticated Cats This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_NOM5Crtq8LeLUefQrj2pSA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I don't mean to be picky, but is there a definition of feral that = includes cats that live within people's homes? (or are cats ever really = domesticated animals at all?) I would have thought that in order to retain any meaning at all the term = 'feral' cannot be used for an indoor cat. I am sorry to say to Catherine that the problems that she is having with = her two cats would not be particularly unusual for any two cats, = regardless of their origins!=20 Cat social groups are mostly based upon mutual tolerance in the presence = of an excess of resources; it doesn't take a lot to upset the = relationship. What appear to be mood swings to us are probably part of = the dynamic conflict that an incompletely domesticated species such as = the cat experiences as a result of living in forced proximity to other = cats and maintaining an unnatural juvenile-parent relationship with = another species (us) whilst remaining a self-reliant hunter. I'd be = confused if it were me. This might be more evident for a cat that had limited socialisation or = had inherited genetic material that favoured timidity or human contact = avoidance. A proper behavioural assessment might be worthwhile if the problem with = your cats is serious, persistent or is causing you difficulty. Jon P.S. thanks to Ernest Olbert for the feral cat links. --Boundary_(ID_NOM5Crtq8LeLUefQrj2pSA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I don't mean to be picky, but is = there a=20 definition of feral that includes cats that live within people's homes? = (or are=20 cats ever really domesticated animals at all?)
 
I would have thought that in order = to retain any=20 meaning at all the term 'feral' cannot be used for an indoor = cat.
 
I am sorry to say to Catherine that the problems = that she is=20 having with her two cats would not be particularly unusual for = any two=20 cats, regardless of their origins!
Cat social groups are mostly based upon mutual = tolerance in=20 the presence of an excess of resources; it doesn't take a lot to upset = the=20 relationship. What appear to be mood swings to us = are=20 probably part of the dynamic conflict that an incompletely domesticated = species=20 such as the cat experiences as a result of living in forced proximity to = other=20 cats and maintaining an unnatural juvenile-parent relationship with = another=20 species (us) whilst remaining a self-reliant hunter. I'd be confused if = it were=20 me.
This might be more evident for a cat that had = limited=20 socialisation or had inherited genetic material that favoured timidity = or human=20 contact avoidance.
 
A proper behavioural assessment might be worthwhile = if the=20 problem with your cats is serious, persistent or is causing you=20 difficulty.
 
Jon
 
P.S. thanks to Ernest Olbert for the = feral cat=20 links.
--Boundary_(ID_NOM5Crtq8LeLUefQrj2pSA)-- From: IN%"scripto@azstarnet.com" "Debi Davis" 4-SEP-1998 10:14:04.47 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Domestic Animals and Body Language I remember the stories of Clever Hans, the horse who could "do addition". His owner was supposedly unaware that body langague was cueing the animal to continue or discontinue pawing the ground. The horse began pawing and watched the owner's subtle concentrating facial frowns. When the owner came to the correct answer, his face would relax and Hans would cease his pawing behavior. I use a service dog (10 pound Papillon) for mobility assistance 24 hours a day, 7 days a week. We have been a team for 2 years, and prior to that I shaped the dog using operant conditioning and successive approximation to perform service tasks such as making the bed, tugging clothing from the dryer, pulling clothing off my body, and to retrieve all items I request. In addition, we work with people living with Alzheimers and Autism, so abrupt movements and unexpected loud noises are the norm. The dog has become very good reading subtle body cues. He senses agitation before I do, and moves into a position giving the patient more room to flail arms, holler and jump around. Consequently, when an episode has nearly ended, the dog moves closer to the patient and allows himself to be petted. He was not shaped to do this, and this is just a single example of his perceptions while working with an unstable population. I sense he is cueing off of many things in his environment, as well. Adam states: >>Without going into detail one can also see that is is not simple to compare "domesticated" and " wild" or even "tamed" animals, and there are meny contributing factors which might enhance in one species the ability to respond to human body language!<< As a member of Delta Society, an information clearing house for service and therapy animals, I have seen different species showing this ability to read body language. Rabbits, Cats, Horses, Birds--all have become adept at interpreting human body language during human interaction. I feel scent is also extremely important, and that this is often another strong cue when combined with sight. We know, for instance, that siezure alert and response dogs and cats can "sense" a seizure long before a human does. With the human giving no inadvertant body cues, the animal is likely responding to biochemical changes within the human's body, and responding to the scent. I have read no scholarly studies on this, though, so it's all anectdotal supposition on my part. But to date, we know of no way to train an animal to "alert" for seizures, low blood sugar, etc., we can only shape the responses to assist the person after the alert has been given. And much of this shaping process involves the animal's ability to cue to different human body language, some subtle, some blatant. But what's interesting to me is how those animals we live with and interact with regularly hone and shape their ability to read our body language fluently, with little human assistance. Like Hans the Clever Horse, I'd guess a great deal more of this is happening than we suspect. Debi Davis Tucson, AZ From: IN%"bsimpson@pinehurst.net" 4-SEP-1998 10:18:11.46 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "Birte =?UNKNOWN?Q?Lindstr=F8m?= Nielsen" CC: Subj: RE: Journal policies on publications and abstracts Birte Lindstrøm Nielsen wrote: > > Dear Ethology listers > I recently found out that the journal Animal Behaviour (AB) would not > consider publications which had had abstracts published before in > proceedings (like those of the ISAE). Usually journals demand > originality and no prior publication but, as far as I am (was) aware, do > not count abstracts and summaries from conferences as 'prior > publication'. Apparently this is a long standing policy of AB and one > that is enforced whenever they are aware of a previous abstract > (appearing in any form where an ISBN no. has been granted). This is not > mentioned in the Instructions to Authors and, as a quick look through > the ISAE proceedings and recent AB issues shows, is generally not known > by most authors and referees. Has anyone else had this experience, or > know of other journals which carry this policy? > > Regards > Birte > > ______________________________________ > Birte L Nielsen > Dept. of Animal Health and Wefare > Research Centre Foulum > P.O. Box 50 > DK-8830 Tjele > Denmark > > Phone: (+45) 8999 1373 > Fax: (+45) 8999 1500 > Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk Dear Birte, The Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association currently has a similar policy of not publishing data that have appeared in press elsewhere, including proceedings. Sincerely, Barbara Barbara S. Simpson, PhD, DVM, ABS Certified Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists The Veterinary Behavior Clinic 6045 U.S. Hwy 1 North Southern Pines, NC 28387 Ph 910-692-2801 Fx 910-692-1860 From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 4-SEP-1998 10:23:17.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: copyright policies Dear colleagues, I have read some of the recent postings on this list in matter of copyright. I share your concern, and I think that many existing copyright policies are an obstacle to the free and effective communication of scientific ideas and results. My opinion is that not only abstract publication should be allowed, but also that there should be no restrictions on non-commercial circulation of scientific papers. In the fields of physics and mathematics there exist public archives that gather both preprints and published articles. Everyone can send papers, and everyone can read them. Many publishers in these fields have agreed that free distribution of scientific papers is vital to a healthy scientific environment. Their copyright policies leave to everyone the rights to publish and redistribute the copyrighted works, for educational and non-commercial purposes. Statistics say that a physicist, on average, checks these archives at least once a day. Researchers in these fields are also free to have their publications online on their web pages. I do not see why the situation in biology, and other fields, should be so different. To advertise these important issues, and to obtain acceptable copyright policies, I have started a campaign. Please read more at: http://www.rerumnatura.zool.su.se Everyone is welcome to join and/or comment on this initiative. Sincerely, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu" "Ted Friend" 4-SEP-1998 13:35:40.90 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Journal policies on publications and abstracts Brite & Barbara, JAVMA does allow atricles that have been previously published, but usually only published in abstract form. Some groups/meetings will reach an agreement with journals reagarding abstracts and even length of abstracts. For example, if you were giving a paper at the American Association of Equine Practitioners and published your paper as an abstract in the proceedings, that would be Ok for EVJ, JAVMA, AJVR, JEVS and most others. The abstract cannot, however, be more than 750 words, contain tables or graphs, or illustrations. If you send in something that is several pages long for publishing in the AAEP proceedings, you would be in trouble. This is made very clear in the instructions for authors for AAEP, for example. I am surprised that Animal Behavior does not accept material that has only been published in abstract form. Doesn't that journal encourage people to submit articles that based on papers presented at the Animal Behavior= meetings?? Ted Friend At 12:13 PM 9/4/98 -0700, you wrote: >Birte Lindstr=F8m Nielsen wrote: >>=20 >> Dear Ethology listers >> I recently found out that the journal Animal Behaviour (AB) would not >> consider publications which had had abstracts published before in >> proceedings (like those of the ISAE). Usually journals demand >> originality and no prior publication but, as far as I am (was) aware, do >> not count abstracts and summaries from conferences as 'prior >> publication'. Apparently this is a long standing policy of AB and one >> that is enforced whenever they are aware of a previous abstract >> (appearing in any form where an ISBN no. has been granted). This is not >> mentioned in the Instructions to Authors and, as a quick look through >> the ISAE proceedings and recent AB issues shows, is generally not known >> by most authors and referees. Has anyone else had this experience, or >> know of other journals which carry this policy? >>=20 >> Regards >> Birte >>=20 >> ______________________________________ >> Birte L Nielsen >> Dept. of Animal Health and Wefare >> Research Centre Foulum >> P.O. Box 50 >> DK-8830 Tjele >> Denmark >>=20 >> Phone: (+45) 8999 1373 >> Fax: (+45) 8999 1500 >> Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk > > >Dear Birte, > >The Journal of the American Veterinary Medical Association currently has >a similar policy of not publishing data that have appeared in press >elsewhere, including proceedings. > > Sincerely,=20 > Barbara > >Barbara S. Simpson, PhD, DVM, ABS Certified >Diplomate, American College of Veterinary Behaviorists >The Veterinary Behavior Clinic >6045 U.S. Hwy 1 North >Southern Pines, NC 28387 >Ph 910-692-2801 >Fx 910-692-1860 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 4-SEP-1998 13:53:36.94 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"t-friend@tamu.edu" CC: Subj: RE: Journal policies on publications and abstracts -REPONSE >>> Ted Friend 04/09/ 15h39 >>> Brite & Barbara, I am surprised that Animal Behavior does not accept material that has only been published in abstract form. Doesn't that journal encourage people to submit articles that based on papers presented at the Animal Behavior meetings??>>> Yes but their policy is NOT to publish abstracts presented at their meetings. Personally I think this is a good idea. I don't think conference abstracts should be published (except in the conference proceedings). However, in many cases the author doesn't have the opportunity to decide whether or not the abstract will be published, so it is unfair to discriminate against people who go to conferences where abstracts are published. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"learning@ozemail.com.au" "Dr. Carlos A. Raimundo" 6-SEP-1998 16:34:33.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Ethology & corporate This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_OQPN9nHlLRxa09A/FWodfw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I would like to share this site www.questforbalance.com.au our program = are based on Psychodrama and Sociometry and in our School of Psychodrama = where ethology, even though is not mention there, is an import part in = our training. Carlos=20 --Boundary_(ID_OQPN9nHlLRxa09A/FWodfw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I=20 would like to share this site www.questforbalance.com.au our=20 program are based on Psychodrama and Sociometry and in our School of = Psychodrama=20 where ethology, even though is not mention there, is an import part in = our=20 training.
 
Carlos=20
--Boundary_(ID_OQPN9nHlLRxa09A/FWodfw)-- From: IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se" "Anna Olsson" 7-SEP-1998 06:38:10.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: reactivity and ontogeny Dear all, I am looking for literature on how reactivity to challenges (in particular behavioural stressors) is affected by stage of development in the growing/maturing young mammal. Database searches give very poor results, so I wonder if anybody out there can help me? Yours sincerely Anna Olsson ----------------------------------------------------- Anna Olsson agronom - doktorand / M Sc of agriculture - PhD student Inst f=F6r husdjurens milj=F6 och h=E4lsa Sveriges Lantbruksuniversitet Box 234 532 23 Skara Dept of Animal Environment and Health Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences P O Box 234 S-532 23 Skara Sweden tel 46 (0)511 - 67245 (direct), 67218 (secretary) fax 46 (0)511 - 67204 e-mail anna.olsson@hmh.slu.se From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 7-SEP-1998 09:24:36.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: live prey for enrichment Dear All, A recent article in the newsletter 'The Shape of Enrichment' describes the feeding of live rats to bears and wolves as a form of environmental enrichment. Although some rats escape from the enclosure (the authors estimate 15% of rats escape) others are hunted, sometimes for up to 9 hours, caught, sometimes played with whilst still alive, and then killed and eaten by the bears and wolves. The authors appear to justify feeding of live rats on the basis that the predatory behaviour of the bears and wolves is 'natural' and has evolved, therefore its expression indicates an improvement of welfare. I am sure most subscribers to this list are aware of the considerable dangers of such an approach to assessing welfare. My concern is that if advocating the feeding of live vertebrate prey as a method of enrichment is not challenged on the basis of being ethically and perhaps scientifically unsound, it will be used by others thereby resulting in a considerable amount of suffering for the prey species with dubious benefits for the predators. ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 7-SEP-1998 09:47:13.68 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Anna Johnson Does anybody know the present address of Anna Johnson, who was in April at the Scottish Agricultural College (A.Johnson@ed.sac.ac.uk)? Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"research@scz.org" "Emily Weiss" 7-SEP-1998 10:27:36.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: live prey for enrichment. This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_HJgPugemiYiDAkK1UbtV1A) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Chris Sherwin addresses an growing issue in zoo enrichment programs. We = are currently investigating these issues - and are struck by the ethics = of both sides of the argument. Some of the predators in zoos are wild caught - having had experience = with live prey. We take them and place them in small environments and = attempt to enrich them with bones, scents and other items. A recent = piece of research in our zoo (Weiss & Kipp, in preparation) discovered = that in some cases these forms of enrichment are not successful. =20 So the issues are these: 1. is it ethical to leave these highly behaviorally complex animals = without opportunities to behave "normally" - or even more basic - to do = more than move onto exhibit, sleep, eat and move off exhibit? 2. Many many zoos feed out fish and invertebrates often. Is it ethical = to feed out these animals but not the soft furry ones? Can we assess = accurately that fish and invertebrates do not feel pain? (the answer is = no we cannot assess that.) 3. Are there creative ways to simulate live prey opportunities without = using live prey? For our zoo this might be the answer - but these take = a lot of time (which is hard to come by at zoos) and in some cases a = fair amount of money - and indoor equipment to ensure that mechanical = equipment stays healthy (See Markowitz, 1982, and Markowitz & Laforse, = 1986 - among others). =20 4. Many zoos use whole dead prey items for enrichment - the animals are = "humanely" euthanized , frozen, and then used as needed. Research has = shown (Law, 1991; Lindburg, 1988) that using whole prey items reduces = stress and improves physical well being. - Does the use of live prey = improve upon this at all? Our zoo is focusing on developing a core of volunteers to assist with = enrichment for carnivores at our zoo. We will investigate the use of = items other than live mammals to decrease stress, and improve = psychological and physiological well being in our animals. This is not = to say that we have completely ruled out the use of live mammal prey in = the future, but first those questions above need to be investigated.=20 Emily Weiss Curator of Behavior and Research Sedgwick County Zoo Wichita Ks, 67212 (316) 942-2212 ex. 257 I am sure most subscribers to this list are aware of the considerable =20 dangers of such an approach to assessing welfare. My concern is that if advocating the feeding of live vertebrate prey as=20 a method of enrichment is not challenged on the basis of being=20 ethically and perhaps scientifically unsound, it will be used by=20 others thereby resulting in a considerable amount of suffering for the=20 prey species with dubious benefits for the predators. --Boundary_(ID_HJgPugemiYiDAkK1UbtV1A) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Chris Sherwin addresses an growing = issue in zoo=20 enrichment programs.  We are currently investigating these issues - = and are=20 struck by the ethics of both sides of the argument.
 
Some of the predators in zoos are wild caught - = having had=20 experience with live prey.  We take them and place them in small=20 environments and attempt to enrich them with bones, scents and other=20 items.  A recent piece of research in our zoo (Weiss & Kipp, in = preparation) discovered that in some cases these forms of enrichment are = not=20 successful. 
 
So the issues are these:
 
1. is it ethical to leave these highly behaviorally = complex=20 animals without opportunities to behave "normally" - or even = more=20 basic - to do more than move onto exhibit, sleep, eat and move off=20 exhibit?
 
2. Many many zoos feed out fish and invertebrates = often. =20 Is it ethical to feed out these animals but not the soft furry = ones?  Can=20 we assess accurately that fish and invertebrates do not feel pain? (the = answer=20 is no we cannot assess that.)
 
3. Are there creative ways to simulate live prey = opportunities=20 without using live prey?  For our zoo this might be the answer - = but these=20 take a lot of time (which is hard to come by at zoos) and in some cases = a fair=20 amount of money - and indoor equipment to ensure that mechanical = equipment stays=20 healthy (See Markowitz, 1982, and Markowitz & Laforse, 1986 - among=20 others). 
 
4. Many zoos use whole dead prey items for = enrichment - the=20 animals are "humanely" euthanized , frozen, and then used as=20 needed.  Research has shown (Law, 1991; Lindburg, 1988) that using = whole=20 prey items reduces stress and improves physical well being.  - Does = the use=20 of live prey improve upon this at all?
 
 
Our zoo is focusing on developing a core of = volunteers to=20 assist with enrichment for carnivores at our zoo.  We will = investigate the=20 use of items other than live mammals to decrease stress, and improve=20 psychological and physiological well being in our animals.  This is = not to=20 say that we have completely ruled out the use of live mammal prey in the = future,=20 but first those questions above need to be investigated.
 
Emily Weiss
Curator of Behavior = and=20 Research
Sedgwick County Zoo
Wichita Ks, 67212
(316) 942-2212 = ex.=20 257
 
I am sure most subscribers to this list are aware of the = considerable =20
dangers of such an approach to assessing welfare.

My concern = is that=20 if advocating the feeding of live vertebrate prey as
a method of = enrichment=20 is not challenged on the basis of being
ethically and perhaps = scientifically=20 unsound, it will be used by
others thereby resulting in a = considerable=20 amount of suffering for the
prey species with dubious benefits for = the=20 predators.
 
 
 
--Boundary_(ID_HJgPugemiYiDAkK1UbtV1A)-- From: IN%"csermely@biol.unipr.it" "Davide Csermely" 7-SEP-1998 11:15:55.39 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: live prey for enrichment At 07.08 04-01-70 +0000, Chris Sherwin wrote: >Dear All, > >A recent article in the newsletter 'The Shape of Enrichment' describes >the feeding of live rats to bears and wolves as a form of environmental >enrichment. Although some rats escape from the enclosure (the authors >estimate 15% of rats escape) others are hunted, sometimes for up to 9 >hours, caught, sometimes played with whilst still alive, and then >killed and eaten by the bears and wolves. > >The authors appear to justify feeding of live rats on the basis that >the predatory behaviour of the bears and wolves is 'natural' and has >evolved, therefore its expression indicates an improvement of welfare. >I am sure most subscribers to this list are aware of the considerable >dangers of such an approach to assessing welfare. > >My concern is that if advocating the feeding of live vertebrate prey as >a method of enrichment is not challenged on the basis of being >ethically and perhaps scientifically unsound, it will be used by >others thereby resulting in a considerable amount of suffering for the >prey species with dubious benefits for the predators. > > > Chris, I agree with your concern for the amount of prey species suffering, but am personally concerned for the welfare of the predator species as well. Predators, e.g. the Carnivores among many others, have evolved incorporating the search of prey and its killing as normal part of their behavioural repertoire. I don't believe that we make a predator happy, from the ethological point of view, by feeding it always and only with meat slices. In contrast, there are indications that missing to perform the full predatory sequence can lead to heavy behavioural alterations, such as self-mutilation (Meyer-Holzapfel 1968, in Fox's "Abnormal behavior in animals"). OK then for considering the welfare of prey but please let's consider also that of predators. Davide Csermely -- ****************************************************************************** Davide Csermely (Assoc. Prof. of Vertebrate Zoology) Dip. Biologia Evolutiva e Funzionale Intl.Phone: +39-0521-905632 Universita` di Parma Intl. Fax : +39-0521-905657 Viale delle Scienze 11A Email: csermely@biol.unipr.it 43100 Parma, Italy URL: http://www.biol.unipr.it ****************************************************************************** From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 7-SEP-1998 13:28:57.73 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"drm@cybertowers.com" "Marlene M. Maheu, Ph.D.", IN%"j.h.barkow@dal.ca" "Jerome (Jerry) Barkow" CC: Subj: Complexity Theory: Getting the Client to "Maybe" This is the final set of notes from the evening seminars that were part o= f "Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution." The formatted editio= n is at www.behavior.net/mhn/bolforum/message/27, about 4/5ths down the pag= e and next to the notes from "Genes: Conversationalists or Conductors" and "Evolutionary Psychology and the DSM" Jim Brody =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D= =3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D=3D A COMPLEXITY MODEL AND MENTAL HEALTH TREATMENT ... GETTING THE CLIENT TO "MAYBE." Thursday, July 23, 1998. 7 P.M. - 9 P.M. James Brody, Ph.D. Host, Evolutionary Psychology, Behavior OnLine 18 attended this session, part of the 19th Cape Cod Institute seminar on "Healing the Moral Animal: Lessons from Evolution," a follow-up on "Clinical Sociobiology: Taking Charge of our Genes." Notes were complete= d 9/6/98. There are several paths that merged into this seminar. 1) I was privileged to hear a talk by Jon Schull on the topic of evolutio= n at a Cape Cod Institute in the summer of 1996. Jon has ties to the Santa= Fe Institute, itself dedicated to the study of complexity and emergent order. The trail from Jon led immediately to Stu Kauffman through a boo= k by R. Belew & M. Mitchell, Adaptive Individuals in Evolving Populations:= Models and Algorithms, 1996, Addison Wesley, Reading: MA. 2) Clinical observation reveals that some clients are particularly sensitive to small changes in medication dose and type as well as to slig= ht alterations in their environment, whether a spoken comment or the triggering of an old memory. Such clients can be our toughest to help. Complexity theory nicely describes these phenomena as well as implying remediative steps. 3) Kauffman (1995, At Home in the Universe, NY: Oxford; 1991, Origins of Order, NY: Oxford) discusses chaos, stasis, and phase transitions in orde= r to account for the rococo biological organizations that surround us. = "Complexity" is a puzzle in a universe assumed to be predicated on disorganization and heat loss. The model describes life as a relatively= unsurprising event and evolution as a directed beyond the steering it get= s from natural selection. Kauffman's models are mathematical/logical derivations and appear valid regardless of the arenas to which they are applied. Thus, I'm intrigued by applying them to models of CNS organization and to models of human organization. there are powerful implications for understanding our cognitive assets, language, social organizations, and even morality. BASICS "Complexity" refers to the development of organized structures (including= living ones) from simpler ones and Kauffman moves from the interaction of= simple molecules to the development of more complicated ones, from interactions of 2 molecules to networks of 100,000 or more. Networks are a collection of decision units; a "decision" by the entire n= et is a function of the units that compose it. Each unit (gene, neuron, hum= an being?) can be inhibited or excited by the activity of other units in the= system. Decision units follow Boolean rules such as AND, OR, NOR, NOT O= R. An "AND" unit will only fire if two specified inputs occur. An "OR" unit will fire if either input or both of them occur. Certain rules, OR and AND, seem more likely to produce coherent output from the net. Once you have a collection of units -- molecules, genes, neurons, or peop= le -- there are 3 states that the network can occupy -- chaotic, orderly, an= d phase transition. "Chaos" refers to there being too much interconnection between units. Th= e action of each one affects activity of all the other units. A network o= f only 200 units would require billions of times the age of our universe to= repeat a pattern. Prediction depends on repetition of events. Given tha= t there is basically no repetition, a change in one bulb eventually changes= the activity of every other bulb in an unpredictable manner. If you systematically increase the number of connections between units, CHAOTIC BEHAVIOR OCCURS WHEN THERE IS MORE THAN 3 CONNECTIONS AFFECTING EACH UNIT= =2E = Chaotic behavior is a more a function of the number of interconnections a= nd is influenced only in a trivial manner by the number of units. If every gene talked to every other gene, if every neuron talked to every other neuron, there would be immobility just as there is for a mother who attempts to do everything personally when she has more than 2 children. "Order" refers to there being one or two interconnections between units. = = In a network of 100,000 units (bulbs, genes) with 2 connections between each unit, repetitive activity for the entire network occurs in only 317 cycles. "Order" occurs very quickly in comparison with networks with mo= re than 3 interconnections. A "Phase Transition" is the zone between chaos and stasis, wherein there = is SOME orderly output from the network and some constraints on that action,= constraint that is a consequence of the cross talk between decision units= =2E = Three interconnections underlies a narrow zone between chaos and rigid order, wherein natural selection can operate. That is, adaptive patterns= will survive; maladaptive ones are eliminated. In the logic circuits that Kauffman describes, the phase transition occur= s in the range of 2.5-3.5 connections (with some fudging upward or down as = a result of the type of connection that is made) between units (again, neurons or people, light bulbs or genes -- it doesn't matter). Neither chaos nor stasis is affected by the number of decision units. A= mob can have 5 members or 10,000. Steam can have a million H2O molecules= or a million times more. The essential element for switching from confusion to cement is that of t= he interconnections between decision units. A committee with 5, equally active, members will generally accomplish little unless a hierarchy is formed or subcommittees (the same thing!) are created. More than 4 membe= rs means that some of them are being silent, uninvolved, or forming subgroup= s that act apart from the main body. Most of the significant genetic affects on behavior appear to involve networks of between 2 and 10 genes (Bailey, 1998). Phase transitions are common and often narrow. For example, there is a very large range of temperatures below 0 degrees C. There is a very larg= e range of temperatures above 100 degrees C when water becomes steam. The= phase transition between 0 and 100 degrees C is very narrow but allows li= fe to exist. "Phase transition" can also be used to describe: 1) The meeting of oil and water 2) Some bacteria live in dust deposits in Arctic ice. The darker color melts the surrounding ice and the bacteria thrive. The darker liquid is also heavier than the surrounding ice and sinks gradually until insufficient light reaches the dust. At that point, the liquid freezes a= nd the bacteria die. However, each layer of bacteria seems to produce the o= ne immediately higher so there is a continuous rotation upward of the living= colony. 3) The number of children in a family cause it to move from a sense of freedom to cement. Two adults can form a union and retain great personal= autonomy for travel, housing, eating, and social activity. Adding one child significantly slows things down. Adding a second child moves the unit to 4 elements and "cement" applies. The constraints on parents include physician appointments, finding sitters, satisfying relatives' inquiries, church demands, and shifts in sleep (both the arrangements and= the amount that is available). Families (or any group) with more than 3= members choose between immobility or they form hierarchies. A mother wit= h more than 2 children will have to create a hierarchy if she wishes to remain effective. The older help with the younger. Mothers who cannot form a hierarchy are immobilized (perhaps a precursor to panic, elicited = in older days by restraint and by a sense of confinement). = 4) It may be that we are a hierarchic species not because of random choic= es or because of some adaptive "need" to control aggression but because of t= he numbers of complexity theory. WE CANNOT FUNCTION IN A COHERENT GROUP AND= RETAIN MOBILITY UNLESS A HIERARCHY IS FORMED. A hierarchy reduces the number of simultaneous demands exerted on every member of the group. = Polling everyone's opinion preempts ALL organized group activity. Chaos (cement) prevails because every member affects every other member on ever= y issue and we orally challenge, "Who's in charge here?" = 5) Phase transitions might usefully be compared to the notion of "set points" in human moods. Love, anger, laughter, bonding often have a quality of all or none. Our primate minds seem to have an "Us/Them Chip= " in that we quickly label other people as for or as against us. 6) Some psychiatric disorders have characteristics of extreme order or of= chaos. A. Impulsiveness. Rigidity and internal order are seen in impulsive= behavior whether reflected in changes of mood, shifts in goals, making sudden purchases, experiencing panic or social phobia, head injury, bipol= ar disorder, borderline personality disorder, or antisocial personality disorder. All of these disorders could reflect insufficient cross talk (perhaps via lateral inhibition) between decision elements within the person. Although external behavior can appear erratic, the internal processing can be highly orderly and not very complex as the person react= s in an extreme fashion even to small shifts in their settings. Impulsiveness is a negative sign, regardless of other characteristics of = a disorder. This observation is based on the correlation of impulsiveness with suicide risk, assault, bankruptcy, traffic accidents, early parenthood, higher frequency of divorce, and premature death. = Impulsiveness will be related to the clients' failing to complete homewor= k drills, collect accurate information, or to internalize directions that a= re given. B. Immobility. An internal chaotic state is perhaps seen in schizophrenia and some anxiety disorders in which immobility occurs when the client cannot "choose" between competing options. There is perhaps t= oo much cross talk, too much weighing of options and every small past experience produces a shifting of goals, plans, and memories. A GOAL OF THERAPY: THE "MAYBE RANGE" Less impaired people have more selective fears and can reason about them = or take steps to collect information and direct avoidant behavior more selectively. They are like "dimmer switches" in which there is a graded= response to changes in input. The light goes a little brighter or a little darker with changes in the switch; likewise, in the person there i= s a little fear or a little anger that serve to mobilize planning and adaptive sequences without eliciting a full scale escape or attack. Flexibility without immobility, and a lack of impulsiveness are positive signs and generally synonymous with "maturity." The client has the ability to say "maybe" and check memories, examples from parents and friends, or seek advice on the internet (still mildly impulsive) or libra= ry (not impulsive at all!) A range of interventions increase the "width of the Maybe Range" and can stabilize the client. A) Things that Slow the Client Down by Increasing Cross Talk Consultation with friends -- ordinarily a good sign, especially if the client is willing to consult with friends who disagree with him. The alliance is intact despite disagreement over a particular issue. A therapist increases the number of inputs on the client; the therapeutic= contact in itself and independently of therapeutic persuasion, should decrease client impulsiveness. Marriages, social clubs, church affiliations, pets, magazine subscription= s, and even golf increase the number of simultaneous demands on a client and= reduce the odds of impulsive activity. (Nathan Azrin once treated alcoholics by getting them 3 jobs, 3 clubs, and a raft of magazine subscriptions. He left them no free time for impulsive behavior.) Cognitive therapy drills the client in what am I feeling, what actually happened, what are other interpretations, and how do I confirm my suspicions? The result is an increase of "checking with' other experiences to make feelings and actions less impulsive, less extreme. Moral teachings slow down impulsive behavior by making some actions (marriage and procreation) socially irrevocable. Moral teachings also sl= ow down actions that are biologically irrevocable such as murder. Moral lessons give even the isolated a base of examples and instructions that a= re internalized checks on social conduct. B) Things that Speed Up Decisions Some clients need to move out of chaos. "Enablers" are constrained too much by real and expected consequences fro= m a partner; therapy may consist in getting them to act with less consultation with their domineering partners. Dependent personalities ca= n have a similar tactical condition even outside of marriage demands. A spouse can be "trapped" in a marriage despite feelings of hopelessness and panic. Financial obligations, children, demands of kin or religious contacts, pets, and magazine subscriptions cement the relationship. (On= e of the most certain ways to produce ulcers in a white rat is NOT electric= shock but immobilization. Simply wrap them in chicken wire.) Such people are like the telephone pole a mile from my house. The pole w= as sheared in a bad storm but remained upright, held in position by the 15 o= r so wires that crossed its top. Sometimes we need to help people cut so= me wires, gaining some freedom and contentment with each severed obligation.= = Such things as a cleaning or lawn service, relaxing rules about daily tasks, or reducing the number of relatives and friends who have to be called daily ... all reduce chaos. Form a hierarchy ... instruct an anxious mother that her older child is designed by nature to produce children of their own at 13 yrs and can tak= e many responsibilities for helping younger siblings. Likewise, our children have always been reared by groups of adults; relatives (and day care staff with the right attributes) and neighbors can be substantial help. Find a model for the anxious to imitate. TREATMENT: Assessment and diagnosis should give explicit consideration to impulsiveness and immobility, regardless of whatever complaints the clien= t may have. Impulsiveness will vary with areas of talent and aptitude. For example,= some impulsive ADHD children are not at all impulsive when caring for children. Some impulsive drivers are quite methodical architects. Some financially impulsive people are extremely methodical when managing their= social contacts. Identifying islands -- of either impulsiveness or of good self-regulation -- could be an important step. Procedures for impulsive people should increase the amount of cross checking that they do before acting, either with other people or within their own minds. Such procedures might include: Physiological tricks of proper diet, exercise, and sleep pattern. (Repor= ts are beginning to appear about the possible effectiveness of sleep regulation for controlling rapid cycling.) Adjustment of social demands. One young lady commented to me that she could not get in trouble or spend excessively so long as she was busy working. Three jobs seemed optimum for her. Enrolling someone in several list_serves (there are 67,000 from which to choose) may have a comparable effect. Form hierarchies or simplify them, depending on the nature of the problem= =2E Adopt pets, acquire hobbies (plants demand recurring attention providing the client has some minimal interest in them), practice a sport (marathon= training, for example, makes tremendous demands for time management and impulse control -- impulsive marathoners often collapse against the curb late in the race), take up a religion. Cognitive therapy, particularly along the lines given above and additionally, "check with someone who asks good questions." "Can you check with someone who disagrees with you and still listen to them?" Eliciting competing psychological adaptations. Former loves, teddy bears= , and childhood scenes usually elicit tranquillity in a frightened person. Morality is likely genetic to the same extent that our grammar is. (It regulates cross talk between people, a variable far too important to be left to social learning methods alone.) Moral sensitivity will vary betwe= en clients just as every other trait does. It has an important function, of= internalizing the amount of cross checking that must be done, even by an isolated person, before he or she takes action. Morality represents an accumulation of rules about situations, rules that usually work in the direction of long term individual happiness and group survival. Morality= can be an important tool for the client's self regulation. Despite the "value neutral" stance of many therapists, the client's existing rule system might be reinforced or challenged so that it allows him freedom within the bounds of good sense. NOTE: There are other people saying highly similar things but sometimes without= referencing Kauffman. His writing can be difficult but, nonetheless, highly rewarding for people interested in evolution and genetics. He cannot be scanned even if you are familiar with the material; some modern= writers may find it easier and more exciting to "discover" the same thing= s for themselves. He appears to establish a ladder that moves from simple molecular interactions through genetic actions. His model is startling in that it predicts and explains genetic functions that have stable outputs despite = a high degree of organizational variability in the genes! Earlier notions= of natural selection's enforcing genetic uniformity seem dispensable and perhaps fundamentally wrong. It seems possible that genetic variability allows each of us to be "different" from one another in some ways and ver= y much "alike" each other in still other ways. Genetic "tuning" is addressed ... tuning by each other and plausibly by other events that occur to the organism. Genes as "conductors" continual= ly learn from the orchestra and appear to provide a gamut of strategies that= are evoked as a function of age, setting, and changes in social demands. = (Goodness, teenaged infatuations represent a shift in genetic tuning! No= surprise to most parents.) Despite all the "complexity" of genetic activity, it appears that the numbers of genes (like the numbers of neurons and the numbers of people) taking part in any one decision is on the order of 3 and that involving more units will slow things down, involving fewer usually speeds them up.= From: IN%"boris@lds.co.uk" "Yvonne Miles" 7-SEP-1998 16:03:18.87 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: live prey for enrichment This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_cUa3cB8GxzeoWJVtWadYvg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Chris There are questions we must ask before getting into a very difficult ethical debate: What time scale was given for adaptation regarding the cessation of feeding carrion and the commencement of feeding the live prey? There must obviously be a lengthy period of time given between the differing feeding regimes for the build-up of the natural appetite to surface. Once this has occurred then the indulgence of playing with the food source would be reduced and the natural hunting/feeding behaviour would be uppermost. Environmental enrichment must be enrichment in the form of the closest possible substitute that can be achieved without inflicting unnecessary suffering to any animal, be it predator or prey. The animals have been placed in surroundings that are un-natural and have limited their behavioural repertoire's to the point that welfare becomes a major issue. How do we know exactly how an animal behaves in the wild? When we are studying it how natural is the behaviour we are studying? The reduction of stress is the most important issue. Each animal has the right to follow it's natural instincts and hunt live prey, it is just the fact that ' we ' do not wish to observe this feeding behaviour and feel that it is unjust. There should be a balance between that of feeding enrichment and that of natural hunting behaviour. Most of the environmental enrichment feeding routines that have been used the animals have become habituated to. So how do you keep the environment enriched without constant change? One easy way is the introduction of live prey! Feeding that is never the same on any given day, the differences in behaviour of the prey to the predator, the chance that the prey will escape and the predator will not feed. In zoo's time is a major factor and unfortunately routines are what most people work to! There are very strong ethical considerations, to the prey, we must give it every reasonable chance to escape the predator. To the predator we must consider how ethical it is to keep a species caged in an un-natural and totally predictable environment. There must be some compromise - Yvonne Miles B.Sc. Hons Southampton ---------- > From: Chris Sherwin > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Subject: live prey for enrichment > Date: 04 January 1904 08:08 > > Dear All, > > A recent article in the newsletter 'The Shape of Enrichment' describes > the feeding of live rats to bears and wolves as a form of environmental > enrichment. Although some rats escape from the enclosure (the authors > estimate 15% of rats escape) others are hunted, sometimes for up to 9 > hours, caught, sometimes played with whilst still alive, and then > killed and eaten by the bears and wolves. > > The authors appear to justify feeding of live rats on the basis that > the predatory behaviour of the bears and wolves is 'natural' and has > evolved, therefore its expression indicates an improvement of welfare. > I am sure most subscribers to this list are aware of the considerable > dangers of such an approach to assessing welfare. > > My concern is that if advocating the feeding of live vertebrate prey as > a method of enrichment is not challenged on the basis of being > ethically and perhaps scientifically unsound, it will be used by > others thereby resulting in a considerable amount of suffering for the > prey species with dubious benefits for the predators. > > > ---------------------- > Chris Sherwin > Division of Animal Health and Husbandry > University of Bristol > Langford House > Langford > Bristol > BS40 5DU > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 > Fax: (01934) 853 443 > E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk --Boundary_(ID_cUa3cB8GxzeoWJVtWadYvg) Content-type: text/html; charset=ISO-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable

Chris
There are questions we must = ask before getting into a very difficult ethical debate:

What = time scale was given for adaptation regarding the cessation of feeding = carrion and the commencement of feeding the live prey?
There must = obviously be a lengthy period of time given between the differing = feeding regimes for the build-up of the natural appetite to surface. =  Once this has occurred then the indulgence of playing with the = food source  would be reduced and the natural hunting/feeding = behaviour would be uppermost.

Environmental enrichment must be = enrichment in the form of the closest possible substitute that can be = achieved without inflicting unnecessary suffering to any animal, be it = predator or prey.

The animals have been placed in surroundings = that are un-natural and have limited their behavioural repertoire's to = the point that welfare becomes a major issue.  

How do we = know exactly how an animal behaves in the wild?  When we are = studying it how natural is the behaviour we are studying?

The = reduction of stress is the most important issue.

Each animal has = the right to follow it's natural instincts and hunt live prey, it is = just the fact that ' we ' do not wish to observe this feeding behaviour = and feel that it is unjust.  There should be a balance between that = of feeding enrichment and that of natural hunting behaviour.  Most = of the environmental enrichment feeding routines that have been used the = animals have become habituated to. So how do you keep the environment = enriched without constant change?  One easy way is the introduction = of live prey!
Feeding that is never the same on any given day, the = differences in behaviour of the prey to the predator, the chance that = the prey will escape and the predator will not feed.  

In = zoo's time is a major factor and unfortunately routines are what most = people work to!  

There are very strong ethical = considerations, to the prey, we must give it every reasonable chance to = escape the predator. To the predator we must consider how ethical it is = to keep a species caged in an un-natural  and totally predictable = environment.

There must be some compromise -

Yvonne = Miles
B.Sc. Hons
Southampton
----------
> From: Chris = Sherwin <chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk>
> To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca
> Subject: live prey for enrichment
> = Date: 04 January 1904 08:08
>
> Dear All,
>
> = A recent article in the newsletter 'The Shape of Enrichment' describes =
> the feeding of live rats to bears and wolves as a form of = environmental
> enrichment.  Although some rats escape from = the enclosure (the authors
> estimate 15% of rats escape) others = are hunted, sometimes for up to 9
> hours, caught, sometimes = played with whilst still alive, and then
> killed and eaten by = the bears and wolves.
>
> The authors appear to justify = feeding of live rats on the basis that
> the predatory behaviour = of the bears and wolves is 'natural' and has
> evolved, therefore = its expression indicates an improvement of welfare.  
> I am = sure most subscribers to this list are aware of the considerable =  
> dangers of such an approach to assessing welfare.
> =
> My concern is that if advocating the feeding of live vertebrate = prey as
> a method of enrichment is not challenged on the basis = of being
> ethically and perhaps scientifically unsound, it will = be used by
> others thereby resulting in a considerable amount of = suffering for the
> prey species with dubious benefits for the = predators.
>
>
> ----------------------
> = Chris Sherwin
> Division of Animal Health and Husbandry
> = University of Bristol
> Langford House
> Langford
> = Bristol
> BS40 5DU
>
> Phone: (0117) 928 9486
> = Fax: (01934) 853 443
> E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk

--Boundary_(ID_cUa3cB8GxzeoWJVtWadYvg)-- From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" 8-SEP-1998 02:48:17.56 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: live prey for enrichment This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_q6Dr/Di8b4Xwn07krdOTaw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable This is a fascinating topic, here are some of my observations: Wolves are professionals, they get by in the wild using many kinds of = food sources. A meal that involves zero energy expenditure represents a good = opportunity not to be overlooked, and will presumably reduce the need to = hunt for some time. Some wolves exist as scavengers close to human settlements (the same is = true of bears), and therefore do little hunting because they can obtain = enough food without. Food is an inelastic demand. Hunting behaviour may be elastic for both these species. Before embarking on this sort of 'environmental enrichment' the relative = importance of various hunting behaviours should have been investigated = usind demand, preference and other tests. Otherwise what are we looking at? If the most important hunting behaviours can be satisfied better by = means other than feeding live prey then this is preferable. Rats are an interesting choice of prey to use in the zoo. Why not choose a species that the animals would normally choose to hunt. Pigs, deer? I cannot believe that a wild bear or wolf would waste nine valuable = hours of its life chasing a rat! The energy expenditure is out of proportion to the gain, so something is = wrong here. Would either species have developed specific hunting behaviours to cope = with this species? Would a rat give the average bear or wolf the chance to chase it for = nine hours in the wild? Neither the amount of time nor the behaviours involved in hunting a rat = (as opposed to a normal prey item) could be considered normal, and = therefore the argument that normal hunting behaviours are achieving an = outlet is false. Sure enough the animals are engaged in doing something but what are the = motivations, benefits etc? What about the behaviours of the rat?=20 If this species has not developed behaviours to cope with being predated = upon by wolves and bears then what normal avoidance behaviours are the = rats able to express? Why is it acceptable to compromise the rats' welfare in this way? Why does the bear or wolf choose to 'hunt' and kill a species that is = unlikely to represent a normal prey item? Could it be that the wolves simply do not tolerate the presence of these = scavengers close to the core of their territory. The behaviours being unleasged may have nothing to do with hunting for = food. It could be because the wolves are driven to expel these potential = sources of threat to young, disease and competition. The continued supply of these rodents may be less a source of amusement = than a source of hassle. Another reason is that zoo environments are so far from perfect that = there is nothing for the wolves to do other than hunt the rats. This is commodity substitution, and the amount of time the wolves or = bears spend hunting has nothing to do with satisfying specific = behavioural needs, it just shows how poor the other aspects of = environmental enrichment must be. My conclusion from this is that if live prey are to be considered an = element of envirnomental enrichment then this should only be the case = when all other avenues have been explored; otherwise we just cause = another major distortion of the animals' behaviour. Using live prey in this way is lazy and wasteful. To invoke word such as 'natural' or 'normal' to describe these practices = or the behaviours that are being displayed is incorrect. It is awfully easy to throw a handful of rats into a cage and watch them = scurry about with wolves and bears occupied in chasing them down for = several hours, but this doesn't tell us anything about whether the = predators are getting anything out of the activity other than a single = way to channel a lot of their time and energy budgets. This involves no sponaneity or choice for the captive species and is = presumably just another spectacle for the general public which will = bring depressed and inanimate captive animals to the front of the cage = for people to watch; making the punters feel that they are not = contributing to a welfare problem for the wolves and bears; whilst also = giving the audience a bit of cheap titillation. It should be determined whether these methods do actually contribute to = the well-being of the captive species before they become part of normal = zoo practice. perhaps this simply raises more questions about the ethics of keeping = certain species captive at all. It is a depressing development! Jon --Boundary_(ID_q6Dr/Di8b4Xwn07krdOTaw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
This is a fascinating topic, here = are some of my=20 observations:
 
Wolves are professionals, they get by in the wild = using many=20 kinds of food sources.
A meal that involves zero energy expenditure = represents a good=20 opportunity not to be overlooked, and will presumably reduce the need to = hunt=20 for some time. 
Some wolves exist as scavengers close to human = settlements=20 (the same is true of bears), and therefore do little hunting because = they can=20 obtain enough food without.
 
Food is an inelastic demand.
Hunting behaviour may be elastic for both these=20 species. 
 
Before embarking on this sort of = 'environmental=20 enrichment' the relative importance of various hunting behaviours should = have=20 been investigated usind demand, preference and other=20 tests.
Otherwise what are we looking=20 at? 
If the most important hunting behaviours can = be=20 satisfied better by means other than feeding live prey then this is=20 preferable. 
 
 
 
Rats are an interesting choice of = prey to use in=20 the zoo.
Why not choose a species that the = animals would=20 normally choose to hunt. 
Pigs, = deer?
 
I cannot believe that a wild bear or wolf would = waste nine=20 valuable hours of its life chasing a rat!
The energy expenditure is out = of=20 proportion to the gain, so something is wrong here.
Would either species have developed specific hunting = behaviours to cope with this species?
Would a rat give the average bear or wolf the chance = to chase=20 it for nine hours in the wild? 
 
Neither the amount of time nor the = behaviours involved=20 in hunting a rat (as opposed to a normal prey item) could be considered = normal,=20 and therefore the argument that normal hunting behaviours are achieving = an=20 outlet is false.
Sure = enough the=20 animals are engaged in doing something but what are the motivations, = benefits=20 etc?
 
 
What about the behaviours of the rat?
If this species has not developed behaviours to cope = with=20 being predated upon by wolves and bears then what normal avoidance = behaviours=20 are the rats able to express? 
Why is it acceptable to compromise the rats' welfare = in this=20 way? 
 
 
 
Why does the bear or wolf choose to 'hunt' and kill = a species=20 that is unlikely to represent a normal prey item?
Could it be that the wolves simply do not tolerate = the=20 presence of these scavengers close to the core of their=20 territory. 
The behaviours being unleasged may have nothing to = do with=20 hunting for food. It could be because the wolves are driven to expel = these=20 potential sources of threat to young, disease and = competition.
The continued supply of these rodents may be less a = source of=20 amusement than a source of hassle. 
 
 
Another reason is that zoo environments are so far = from=20 perfect that there is nothing for the wolves to do other than hunt the=20 rats.
This is commodity substitution, and the = amount of time=20 the wolves or bears spend hunting has nothing to do with satisfying = specific=20 behavioural needs, it just shows how poor the other aspects of = environmental=20 enrichment must be.
 
My conclusion from this is that if = live prey are=20 to be considered an element of envirnomental enrichment then this should = only be=20 the case when all other avenues have been explored; otherwise we just = cause=20 another major distortion of the animals' behaviour.
Using live prey in this way is lazy = and=20 wasteful.
To invoke word = such as=20 'natural' or 'normal' to describe these practices or the behaviours that = are=20 being displayed is incorrect.
 
It is awfully easy to throw a = handful of rats=20 into a cage and watch them scurry about with wolves and bears occupied = in=20 chasing them down for several hours, but this doesn't tell us anything = about=20 whether the predators are getting anything out of the activity other = than a=20 single way to channel a lot of their time and energy = budgets.
 
This involves no sponaneity or choice for the = captive species=20 and is presumably just another spectacle for the general public which = will bring=20 depressed and inanimate captive animals to the front of the cage for = people to=20 watch; making the punters feel that they are not contributing to a = welfare=20 problem for the wolves and bears; whilst also giving the audience a bit = of cheap=20 titillation.
 
It should be determined whether these methods do = actually=20 contribute to the well-being of the captive species before they become = part of=20 normal zoo practice.
 
perhaps this simply raises more questions about the = ethics of=20 keeping certain species captive at all.
 
It is a depressing development!
 
Jon
--Boundary_(ID_q6Dr/Di8b4Xwn07krdOTaw)-- From: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" 8-SEP-1998 03:59:34.77 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "'Jeff Rushen'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" Subj: More on journal policies... > Jeff Rushen wrote: > " I wasn't aware of such a policy. Most other journals I know exempt > conference abstracts from being considered as prior publication. It > sounds like an absurd and irrational policy to me. Many societies > publish abstracts as a matter of course, using the publication as the > conference proceedings, so we have no choice as to whether or not the > abstract is published. It seems silly to say that an experiment = cannot > be presented at such a conference if you want the article published = in > Animal Behaviour. I suggest you check that this really is the policy > (I find it hard to beleive) and if it is, complain! We all should. In > the meantime, make sure there is no hint in the paper that the > abstract has been published!" > >=20 > Dear Jeff (and the rest of you)=20 > I assume that your comment about not mentioning the publication of an > abstract was said tongue-in-cheek? In the specific case in point the > authors informed Animal Behaviour (AB) on submission of their paper > that 'a preliminary report of some of these findings has already > appeared' and gave the reference to the Proceedings of 32nd Congress > of the ISAE, 1998. Apparently, AB _do_ accept papers where the > abstract has appeared in a conference proceedings just given to = people > attending a conference,=20 > as long as it has no further circulation, but the issue here is that > the proceedings of the ISAE has an ISBN number. >=20 > The authors did check the policy with the Editors, as they couldn't > believe it either, and they did complain (vociferously) but AB > insisted it was a 'longstanding' policy. The authors agree with you > that the policy is stupid, it is not policeable, and it is manifestly > flouted in (most) every issue of AB precisely because MOST people do > not admit to having a previous abstract published. >=20 > I think the main point is that an abstract of less than 300 words > published ANYWHERE should not be considered a prior publication for a > full paper - after all everyone treats it that way - you would never > reference an abstract rather than a paper. I would be interested to > hear any arguments _against_ this view. The other issues specific to > AB are 1) that they don't mention in their guidelines that this is > their policy; and 2) that even the most cursory glance throught AB > would how that their policy is not adhered to except in an extremely > small number of cases where people ADMIT that an abstract has > appeared. >=20 > I fully agree that we should complain...any suggestions for an > effective (yet legal) method? >=20 > Birte >=20 > ______________________________________ > Birte L Nielsen > Afd. for Husdyrsundhed og Velf=E6rd > Forskningscenter Foulum > Postboks 50 > DK-8830 Tjele > Danmark >=20 > Phone: (+45) 8999 1373 > Fax: (+45) 8999 1500 > Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk >=20 From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 8-SEP-1998 05:06:46.83 To: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" Subj: RE: More on journal policies... Dear colleagues, >> I fully agree that we should complain...any suggestions for an >> effective (yet legal) method? How many people are on this list? Just ten letters stating that such a policy "may in the future affect people's willingness to submit manuscripts to Animal Behaviour" will make it an issue for the journal. This will work best if you have a long-time collaboration with the journal. I sent just yesterday a letter to AB together with Magnus Enquist, which is a former editor. We complain not only about abstract policies but about the restrictions that are imposed upon non-commmercial circulation of the articles. Many journals and publishers in other fields of science leave non-commercial distribution unrestricted, before and after publication. Examples are International Press, the American Physical Society and the American Mathematical Society. Another possible way of action is through insitutional policies. For example, a University or Department may require its employees to publish abstracts, and even full papers, on a University web server. It will be very bad publicity for a journal to not accept any paper from an entire University on these grounds. Yet another way is to act through science associations. For example, AB is published jointly by the Animal Behaviour Society and the Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour. These are associations of scientists, so they should look after science in the first place. Are you a memeber of these or others associations? Then you can raise the issue. Also, do you know of any journal with is more friendly to authors, in biology? That is, that does not restrict circulation of the published papers for educational purposes, or even leaves the copyrights with the authors? If it is so, please let me know, I would like to submit there my manuscripts (and let other journals know about it). As I said in a previous letter to this list, I think that the abstract-publishing question is only a part of the very important issue of non-commerical distribution of scientific works. Cheers, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"cnicipor@hotmail.com" "Clarissa N." 8-SEP-1998 06:38:19.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: thank-you-message Thanks for Deborah McWilliams and Jennifer Weeks , who replyed to my request for rat vocalization information. Clarissa Niciporciukas cnicipor@hotmail.com Universidade de Sao Paulo Sao Paulo - Brazil ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 8-SEP-1998 06:49:55.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: turtle behaviour Hello all! Do we have any turtle behaviourists in the crowd? Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"raf.freire@bristol.ac.uk" 8-SEP-1998 07:06:32.89 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: turtle behaviour On Tue, 08 Sep 1998 08:49:45 -0400 (EDT) Deborah McWilliams wrote: > Do we have any turtle behaviourists in the crowd? There's a few of us that don't stick our necks out very often if that's what you mean. Raf Freire ---------------------- Dr Raf Freire Animal Health and Husbandry Dept. Clinical Vet. Science University of Bristol Langford Bristol BS40 5DU (0044)(0)117 928355 raf.freire@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"L.P.Stone@exeter.ac.uk" 8-SEP-1998 07:52:13.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Captive cormorants I am currently in the final stages of completing my PhD thesis on the development of dive behaviour in shags and cormorants. I have been told about the existence of zoological gardens / wildlife parks with captive cormorants but do not know exactly where these are. I believe that there is as least one such institute in Holland. Has anyone anymore information on this subject. If possible I need to know the location and name of the institute. Thanks for any help that anyone may be able to give me. Laurence Stone Department of Psychology Univeristy of Exeter U.K. From: IN%"L.P.Stone@exeter.ac.uk" 8-SEP-1998 07:55:22.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Captive cormorants I am currently in the final stages of completing my PhD thesis on the development of dive behaviour in shags and cormorants. I have been told about the existence of zoological gardens / wildlife parks with captive cormorants but do not know exactly where these are. I believe that there is as least one such institute in Holland. Has anyone anymore information on this subject. If possible I need to know the location and name of the institute. Thanks for any help that anyone may be able to give me. Laurence Stone Department of Psychology Univeristy of Exeter U.K. From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 8-SEP-1998 07:56:23.82 To: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk", IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: More on journal policies... -REPONSE I suggest the Council of the ISAE write a letter of complaint to the editorial board of Animal Behaviour. The policy forces us to choose between publishing ISAE proceedings with an ISBN and publishing articles in Animal Behaviour. Hello Council! Anyone there? Jeff Rushen >>> Stefano Ghirlanda 08/09/ 07h07 >>> Dear colleagues, >> I fully agree that we should complain...any suggestions for an >> effective (yet legal) method? How many people are on this list? Just ten letters stating that such a policy "may in the future affect people's willingness to submit manuscripts to Animal Behaviour" will make it an issue for the journal. This will work best if you have a long-time collaboration with the journal. I sent just yesterday a letter to AB together with Magnus Enquist, which is a former editor. We complain not only about abstract policies but about the restrictions that are imposed upon non-commmercial circulation of the articles. Many journals and publishers in other fields of science leave non-commercial distribution unrestricted, before and after publication. Examples are International Press, the American Physical Society and the American Mathematical Society. Another possible way of action is through insitutional policies. For example, a University or Department may require its employees to publish abstracts, and even full papers, on a University web server. It will be very bad publicity for a journal to not accept any paper from an entire University on these grounds. Yet another way is to act through science associations. For example, AB is published jointly by the Animal Behaviour Society and the Association for the Study of Animal Behaviour. These are associations of scientists, so they should look after science in the first place. Are you a memeber of these or others associations? Then you can raise the issue. Also, do you know of any journal with is more friendly to authors, in biology? That is, that does not restrict circulation of the published papers for educational purposes, or even leaves the copyrights with the authors? If it is so, please let me know, I would like to submit there my manuscripts (and let other journals know about it). As I said in a previous letter to this list, I think that the abstract-publishing question is only a part of the very important issue of non-commerical distribution of scientific works. Cheers, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"ros.clubb@zoology.ox.ac.uk" "Ros.Clubb" 8-SEP-1998 08:25:02.63 To: IN%"L.P.Stone@exeter.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Captive cormorants The organisation ISIS has a species list for birds(as well as mammals and reptiles) for most zoos worldwide. They have a website which you can search by species. It tells you where they are held, the number of individuals, sex, no. of births etc, as well as the addresses for each zoo. http://www.worldzoo.org/abstract/abstract.htm Hope that helps Ros Clubb At 02:45 PM 9/8/98 +0100, L.P.Stone@exeter.ac.uk wrote: >I am currently in the final stages of completing my PhD thesis on the >development of dive behaviour in shags and cormorants. I have been told >about the existence of zoological gardens / wildlife parks with captive >cormorants but do not know exactly where these are. I believe that there >is as least one such institute in Holland. Has anyone anymore information >on this subject. If possible I need to know the location and name of the >institute. Thanks for any help that anyone may be able to give me. > >Laurence Stone >Department of Psychology >Univeristy of Exeter >U.K. > > > Ros Clubb University of Oxford Animal Behaviour Research Group Department of Zoology South Parks Road Oxford OX1 3PS Tel: (01865) 271224 From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 8-SEP-1998 12:12:23.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: turtle behaviour To any of the turtle behaviour enthusiasts! We have two Eastern Box Turtles male and female. The female has recently been treated for retained eggs (no clinical signs we found these on x-ray by chance). We are now wondering if keeping the male with the female caused or contributed to this problem and how they should be housed in the futute. Does anyone know if the male and female live together or are separate except for the mating period in the wild? This would help us to determine how to house our turtles to maximize their comfort. Currently they are separate, up to the time the eggs were discovered they were together. Since the female eats better when the male is present we are contemplating male visits. Any hints would be useful in making the decision on visiting vs full time occupancy by the male (he is quite randy most of the time but as far as we know the female has kept her shell firmly closed to his advances). Nora Lewis From: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" 8-SEP-1998 13:03:06.27 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: animal behavior-animal training Hello everyone! My name is Arlene Armenta and I am a sophmore at the University of Texas at PanAmerican in Edinburg, Texas. I am a Psychology and Zoology major. Currently I am working on a research paper on the benifits of learning from animal behaviors through animal training. What I want to know is what we learn of ourselves as well as our environment and animals. What are your thoughts of the training being done at SeaWorld? Are the animals simply entertaining or are they teaching us something about themselves? Why is it important to study animal behaviors? If we had not studied animal behavior what losses would we encounter? I welcome any opinions you may have as well as facts. All the information I receive will be given full credit and I can put out a copy of my paper so that all of you can read also. Be warned, it is not a professional paper. Just a college research paper. I am glad to be a part of your network. I hope to learn much from interacting with you all. Now, a little more of myself. I am 24 years old. I was born in California, but now live in Texas. This summer I will be working with the Animal Care Dept. at Sea World in San Antonio Texas. I hope one day to become an animal trainer and if not, I hope to continue working and studying animals. I have two dogs: Buster-2yr.old Dalmation with liver colored spots and Lucy- 1yr.old Austrailian shepherd/Border collie mix. I am engaged and plan to be married May22,1999. Well, thank you for any information you can send.Arlene Armenta From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 8-SEP-1998 13:32:56.75 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Complexity Theory: Getting the Client to "Maybe" Egads! My kid is up on this stuff! Jim Brody -------------Forwarded Message----------------- From: "Brody, James", INTERNET:JBrody@MediaOne.com To: "'James F. Brody'", JBrody = Date: 9/8/98 7:17 AM RE: RE: Complexity Theory: Getting the Client to "Maybe" Sender: JBrody@MediaOne.com Received: from exchimc02.mediaone.com (host-100-164.mediaone.com [169.152= =2E100.164]) by hil-img-5.compuserve.com (8.8.6/8.8.6/2.14) with ESMTP id HAA28276 for ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:17:06 -0400 (EDT) Received: by exchimc02.mediaone.com with Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.= 9) id ; Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:17:05 -0400 Message-ID: <71F70BFE5E6BD111B53700805FE23DE1024E0FE9@neexch04.mediaone.c= om> From: "Brody, James" To: "'James F. Brody'" Subject: RE: Complexity Theory: Getting the Client to "Maybe" Date: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 07:17:04 -0400 = MIME-Version: 1.0 X-Mailer: Internet Mail Service (5.5.2232.9) Content-Type: text/plain Hmm, you're finally starting to write about things that I understand. It= 's about time chaos theory reared it's ugly head . . . Two comments/points: 1. The description and classification of the network states is good, but= does the introduction of a "strange attractor" concept add another dimens= ion to this? There's a few pages in Artificial Life (can't remember the auth= or, it's one of the ones I got you for Christmas last year) which detail evolution in terms of gradually increasing levels of chaos surrounding distinct areas of local optima. I don't have the book in front of me, bu= t I seem to remember a chart depicting life on Earth, with the vertical axis representing disorder/entropy and the horizontal representing time. Over= 5 billion years, the actual duration of time in which life exists on Earth = is relatively small, however these periods seem to be extended beyond a line= ar increase in disorder (basically a "plateau" where the level of disorder stays fairly constant over a period of time). There was also a whole section devoted to genetic algorithms (GA's) that pointed out the same phenomenon. 2. The other concept which might expand your model, again related to the= network, would have to be feedback. The model which you've outlined feel= s like a "first-in, first-out" (FIFO) scenario, where stimuli flow through = the network components in a fairly orderly and progressive fashion (that's th= e way I read it, anyway). The introduction of a feedback concept could probably help to model situations where small "blips" in psychological st= ate can trigger accelleration toward more manic sorts of behavior. = This might be a good fit with the strange attractor concept -- although t= he human brain isn't infinite, it's pretty damn big on a neuron-by-neuron basis. Use of a state model on such a complex network would imply virtua= lly infinite variations in personalities and response patterns. However, peo= ple are actually fairly simple in comparison -- 5+ billion people all fitting= into a finite number of personality "types." These personality types wou= ld represent the primary local optima, or the points that behavior tends to gravitate toward (the strange attractors). However, there are obviously other attractors in the pattern, those representing "deviant" behavior. Since these are less common, they would show as smaller, less "significan= t" areas of optima on a chaos chart. It's probably not quantifiable on the human behavior front, but I wonder if anyone in the engineering controls field has examined how differing levels of feedback tend to "push" a syst= em state between periods of order. By the way, I can also validate the point about the futility of having mo= re than 4 people in a meeting. I absolutely despise large meetings -- there= seems to be some sort of exponential relation between the number of peopl= e attending and the overall lack of productivity. Conference calls are eve= n worse. jb From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 8-SEP-1998 13:34:11.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: turtle behaviour To Nora and other Turtle folks: > We have two Eastern Box Turtles male and female. The female has recently > been treated for retained eggs (no clinical signs we found these on > x-ray by chance). Retained eggs usually result from dietary imbalances. Nora: Please describe "randy" behavior by the male turtle. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 8-SEP-1998 13:36:39.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: surplus killing I came across an article re: the recent discussion topic on surplus killing: Surplus killing by carnivores Journal of Zoology, London 1972 Vol. 166, pp. 233-244 Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"SMILLMAN@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Suzanne Millman" 8-SEP-1998 15:00:16.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: IMAG-DLO contact Does anyone know the telephone number of the following Institute :- DLO Institute of Agricultural Engineering (IMAG-DLO), P.O. Box 43, 6700 AA Wageningen, The Netherlands From: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" 8-SEP-1998 15:04:33.46 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: turtle behaviour What have you learned from observing animals' behavior? How has this benefited your research and knowledge of the animals you study? Any information you can provide would be most helpful. AARMENTA@panam.edu On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Deborah McWilliams wrote: > To Nora and other Turtle folks: > > > We have two Eastern Box Turtles male and female. The female has recently > > been treated for retained eggs (no clinical signs we found these on > > x-ray by chance). > > Retained eggs usually result from dietary imbalances. > > > > Nora: Please describe "randy" behavior by the male turtle. > > Deb > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > From: IN%"KAKerby@aol.com" 8-SEP-1998 19:54:40.13 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: turtle behaviour I've had two box turtles, a male and female, for approximately 14 years. They've always been housed together. The female has laid eggs several times. I've found that the egg-laying is typically seasonal, w/ the most occurences in April and May. It has often corresponded to access to nest-building substrate, such as warm soil deep enough to dig in (approx 5" deep). When she hasn't had access to such substrate, she has occassionally laid them right on the wooden floor of her terrarium, or in her pond. I only had her bind up once, with an egg that was too big to pass. The thing was a monster, and had to be 'deflated' by the vet, then removed in a surgical procedure. I would agree that nutritional imbalances may play a role in a turtle's egg-laying behaviors, but I'm not sure what role the presence/absence of the male would play. In the wild they are not social animals, and large congregations are found only when the resources permit it. Since mine have always been housed together, it would seem that the presence of a male wouldn't absolutely prohibit such laying. You may be interested to know, however, that female box turtles can lay fertile eggs at least 5 years after any contact with a male. I'm not sure if they're storing the sperm or the eggs. If you want further info, I'll dig up my turtle reference materials and send them your way. Good luck! From: IN%"Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se" "Per Jensen" 9-SEP-1998 03:09:33.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Journal policies Recently, Birte Nielsen wrote: "Dear Ethology listers I recently found out that the journal Animal Behaviour (AB) would not consider publications which had had abstracts published before in proceedings (like those of the ISAE). Usually journals demand originality and no prior publication but, as far as I am (was) aware, do not count abstracts and summaries from conferences as 'prior publication'. Apparently this is a long standing policy of AB and one that is enforced whenever they are aware of a previous abstract (appearing in any form where an ISBN no. has been granted). This is not mentioned in the Instructions to Authors and, as a quick look through the ISAE proceedings and recent AB issues shows, is generally not known by most authors and referees. Has anyone else had this experience, or know of other journals which carry this policy? Regards Birte " As one of the editors-in-chief for the journal Applied Animal Behaviour Science, I can assure you that this journal does not follow the policy quoted. To my mind, such a policy hampers both traditional scientific publication and more rapid conference communication. I think there is a need for both things. As long as there are no copyright conflicts, everyone should feel free to send their full publications to Applied Animal Behaviour Science, even if the results have earlier been communicated at conferences and published as conference abstracts. Best wishes, Per Jensen *********************************************************** PER JENSEN, Professor of Ethology Swedish University of Agricultural Scinces Department of Animal Environment and Health Section of Ethology POB 234, SE-532 23 SKARA, Sweden Tel +46 511 67219 Fax +46 511 67204 E-mail Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se *********************************************************** From: IN%"hanno.wuerbel@inw.agrl.ethz.ch" "Hanno Wuerbel" 9-SEP-1998 04:41:16.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: journal policy In Science 281: 1459-1460 (1998) the issue of publication policy and copyright is discussed in a somewhat broader sense. In a paper, a group of 12 members of the AAAS (including scientists, editors and librarians) suggest public funding bodies to maintain a policy according to which funding should only be provided when it can be assured that copyright remains with the author in case of publication (which in fact is already the case in the United States with any project funded by the private industry or the government). Such a policy takes into account that public funding bodies must have a strong interest in optimal distribution of the work they funded, but of course, it would also put some pressure on the editors to provide some additional benefits to the scientists in order to motivate them to keep publishing in their journals in the long term. So, in fact, perhaps the times when editors set the scene are already over... ____________________________ Dr. Hanno Wuerbel Institute of Animal Sciences Physiology and Husbandry ETH Zurich Schorenstrasse 16/SLA B14 8603 Schwerzenbach phone: ++41.1.825.74.79 fax: ++41.1.825.04.76 hanno.wuerbel@inw.agrl.ethz.ch From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 9-SEP-1998 05:28:05.87 To: IN%"Per.Jensen@hmh.slu.se" "Per Jensen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Journal policies Dear Dr Jensen and colleagues, > As long as there are no copyright conflicts, everyone should feel free to > send their full publications to Applied Animal Behaviour Science, even if > the results have earlier been communicated at conferences and published as > conference abstracts. Good! I cannot find any information on-line on the journal's web site when it comes to the copyrights on the published papers: can authors have them on their own web pages or on their institutions' site, and can they send papers to non-commercial archives? It is the current practice of many journals and publishers to leave non-commerical distribution of the papers unrestricted. For example, International Press, the American Mathematical Society, the American Physical Society. I think that these are important issues and that non-commerical circulation of scientific papers should not be restricted by the copyright agreements. For example, scientists in developing countries often have a better access to electronic media than to the printed journals. Cheers, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 9-SEP-1998 06:48:39.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: turtle watching Response to aarmenta@panam1: I am not sure what you are asking. Do you mean observing ANY animal's behaviour? Or, animal behaviour in general? I'll assume you are asking re: turtles: 1) What have I learned from observations re: turtle behaviour? A lot about turtles although I am handicapped in understanding a lot of my observations because of a lack of literature on turtle behaviour. Turtles appear to have definite likes, wants and dislikes and pity the person or other animal that gets in the way of fulfilling their desires. Turtles have very primitive brains (very little cortex) and their behaviours appear to be more brain stem driven (e.g., emotive, reactive). This does not mean they are "stupid". Turtles are astute at finding escape routes, manipulating their environment and relating to their environment. They can identify individuals (humans also) and appear to treat individuals different based on identification. 2) How (does this) benefit my research and knowledge of the animals I study? I just finished an intensive study with chickens. Chickens, as you now, have a physiology that contains aspects of reptilian physiology. I find, as well, that behaviours are similar and ways of successfully relating to chickens works with turtles. In general, there are aspects of behaviour that are shared by many taxons and most of what I observe in any animal is useful at some point in relating to other animals. ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 16:00:15 -0500 (CDT) From: aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu Subject: Re: turtle behaviour To: Deborah McWilliams Copies to: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca What have you learned from observing animals' behavior? How has this benefited your research and knowledge of the animals you study? Any information you can provide would be most helpful. AARMENTA@panam.edu On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Deborah McWilliams wrote: > To Nora and other Turtle folks: > > > We have two Eastern Box Turtles male and female. The female has recently > > been treated for retained eggs (no clinical signs we found these on > > x-ray by chance). > > Retained eggs usually result from dietary imbalances. > > > > Nora: Please describe "randy" behavior by the male turtle. > > Deb > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 --IAA20678.905344896/wright.aps.uoguelph.ca-- dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 9-SEP-1998 06:49:50.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Turtle sex Dear Catherine: Yes - I know randy means horny. I asked "describe it". For example, what specific behavioural indices demonstrate "randy". Deb > Date sent: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:23:41 -0400 > From: clinton@consumersgas.com (Catherine Linton) > Subject: Re[2]: turtle behaviour > To: Deborah McWilliams > "randy" means horny!! > > Cat > ______________________________ Reply Separator _________________________________> Subject: Re: turtle behaviour > Author: Deborah McWilliams at Internet > Date: 9/8/98 3:33 PM > > > To Nora and other Turtle folks: > > > We have two Eastern Box Turtles male and female. The female has recently > > been treated for retained eggs (no clinical signs we found these on > > x-ray by chance). > > Retained eggs usually result from dietary imbalances. > > > > Nora: Please describe "randy" behavior by the male turtle. > > Deb > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 --IAA20740.905345134/wright.aps.uoguelph.ca-- dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 9-SEP-1998 07:11:17.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: live prey for enrichment -Reply >>> Chris Sherwin 06/09/83 03:08am >>> Dear All, A recent article in the newsletter 'The Shape of Enrichment' describes the feeding of live rats to bears and wolves as a form of environmental enrichment. Although some rats escape from the enclosure (the authors estimate 15% of rats escape) others are hunted, sometimes for up to 9 hours, caught, sometimes played with whilst still alive, and then killed and eaten by the bears and wolves. The authors appear to justify feeding of live rats on the basis that the predatory behaviour of the bears and wolves is 'natural' and has evolved, therefore its expression indicates an improvement of welfare. I am sure most subscribers to this list are aware of the considerable dangers of such an approach to assessing welfare. My concern is that if advocating the feeding of live vertebrate prey as a method of enrichment is not challenged on the basis of being ethically and perhaps scientifically unsound, it will be used by others thereby resulting in a considerable amount of suffering for the prey species with dubious benefits for the predators. ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk The ethical question goes beyond using live prey for captive predators. The question is whether it is ethical to confine wild animals for the viewing entertainment of the public. Paul From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 9-SEP-1998 07:39:32.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"gordon_mcleod@hotmail.com" "Gordon McLeod" Subj: (Fwd) Live Feeding Hi everyone, This message about the 'live feeding' discussion was sent to me with the option to forward it to the list. Here it is. Regards, Hans ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- From: "Gordon McLeod" To: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk Subject: Live Feeding Date: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 12:28:10 PDT Hi Hans, Thanks for forwarding the discussion, interesting stuff. I have a few thoughts on the subject (as you may have guessed), though don't want to go into too much detail here. Feel free to pass this on to the list if it's still relevant. There are long term (evolutionary) consequences of not learning hunting skills (how to find, recognise and then catch prey without getting hurt, and what to do with it afterwards), loss of awareness of larger predators (reintroduction work on meerkats and black-footed ferrets show they don't react quickly to predators without training), and accidental domestication through successful breeding of animals that best adapt to the zoo environment. This is all before we get to the welfare considerations (of which there are many), because if you can't reintroduce the animals decendants eventually, then one of the main functions of zoos (conservation) goes out the window, and we're back to the Victorian Sideshow attitude. I'm surprised no-one from the UK side of things mentioned that it's illegal to live feed here under current legislation, even if it's beneficial to an endangered species, such as the Antegan(?) Racer, an endangered snake, which live-feeding work at Jersey Zoo showed could breed more sucessfully than with the usual "shake a rat on a stick" approach. As a final point, no-one ever objects to live-feeding insects, it's only when you get further up the "cute and cuddly" scale that people start objecting on supposed welfare of the prey grounds. Just because locusts and mealworms have very simple nervous systems, can we say that they don't feel pain ? after all, we can't PROVE that sheep or pigs feel pain, and biochemical monitoring of both under the same conditions gives completely different results. Even in humans, the only way we know they feel pain is because they can tell us. It wasn't so long ago that it was assumed that babies don't feel pain. Thanks, Gordon gordon_mcleod@hotmail.com Web Address: http://www.geocities.com/Athens/Oracle/1810/ ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ____________________________________ Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Tel.: 01224 - 318611 Fax.: 01224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 9-SEP-1998 08:02:17.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: (Fwd) Live Feeding Dear All > The question is whether it is ethical to confine wild animals for > the viewing entertainment of the public. > if you can't > reintroduce the animals decendants eventually, then one of the main > functions of zoos (conservation) goes out the window, and we're back to > the Victorian Sideshow attitude. Comments about 'entertainment' and 'sideshows' come up fairly regularly in relation to zoos. One point is rarely made, though, and perhaps it is because few of the people making such comments are parents. I believe zoos are very important in giving people an understanding of, and appreciation for, animals. This is particularly important for children, but it can also apply later - I have sometimes taken students round the zoo who have never been to one before, and the impact of seeing real animals at close quarters is still profound. I do not believe that television achieves the same effect, and I feel that the establishment of positive attitudes towards animals in children is vital in establishing later approaches to welfare and conservation - something that has been underemphasised except, notably, by Liz Paul. Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 9-SEP-1998 08:20:35.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Position Announcement From: IN%"JMcglone@TTACS.TTU.EDU" "John J. McGlone" 6-SEP-1998 11:55:34.72 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Joe, Could you please do me a favor and send the attached file to the ethology list-serv? I'd prefer to get someone from that pool, but since it is a multi-disciplinary position, the successful applicant could come from any of a number of disciplines. I cut and pasted a version here in case that mechanism is easier. Thanks. John McGlone Position Announcement Post-Doctoral Research Associate Sustainable Pork Production Requirement: PhD in Animal Science, Animal Management/Ethology, Plant Science, Agricultural Economics or Meat Science, with an interest in sustainable pork production and a multi-disciplinary research and development effort. Open: November 1, 1998 or when a suitable candidate is identified Salary: $30,000 per year, plus benefits on a 12 month appointment. Three years of funding are available Appointment: The position is 75% research and development and 25% training/teaching. Responsibilities include oversight of a large project to 1. Develop a pork production system (production through marketing) that is sustainable. By sustainable, we mean environmentally friendly, animal friendly, consumer friendly, community friendly and economically competitive. 2. Interact with a multi-disciplinary team of scientists in fields of Animal Science, Plant Science, Agricultural Economics and Meat Science. 3. Interact with pork producers, processors, organizations and communities on sustainable pork production 4. Develop training materials on sustainable pork production 5. Prepare publications in each area (Animal Science, Training, Meat Science, Plant Science and Agricultural Economics 6. Coordinate activities of several staff, graduate students, undergraduate students 7. Participate in team teaching undergraduate swine production class and other classes consistent with the interests and ability of the candidate Contact: John J. McGlone, PhD Pork Industry Institute Texas Tech University Lubbock, TX 79409-2141 Phone: 806-742-2533 FAX: 806-742-2335 e-mail: jmcglone@ttu.edu --=====================_905122706==_ Content-Type: application/msword; name="Post doc.doc"; x-mac-type="42494E41"; x-mac-creator="4D535744" Content-Transfer-Encoding: base64 Content-Disposition: attachment; filename="Post doc.doc" 0M8R4KGxGuEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAPgADAP7/CQAGAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABAAAALAAAAAAAAAAA EAAALgAAAAEAAAD+////AAAAACsAAAD///////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// 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//////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// //////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// ////////////AQD+/wMKAAD/////BgkCAAAAAADAAAAAAAAARhgAAABNaWNyb3NvZnQgV29yZCBE b2N1bWVudAAKAAAATVNXb3JkRG9jABAAAABXb3JkLkRvY3VtZW50LjgA9DmycQAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA AAAAAAAAAAA= --=====================_905122706==_-- From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 9-SEP-1998 08:38:21.48 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" CC: Subj: turtles and eggs Dear Nora: > By "randy" behaviour I mean he spends a significant proportion of his > time mounting the female, who as I indicated, keeps her shell closed > against these advances. My experience is with aquatic turtles whose randy behaviour is quite different from what you describe. There is a lot of chasing in the water; one flips the other over; and, mounting. In addition, a lot of sniffing of the cloaca. I am not sure how much of his time is spent in > this activity however I have seen him a number of times on my veterinary > rounds and the technical staff assure me this is very frequent behaviour > i.e. multiple times per day. Something to do? > We would like to keep these turtles in as natural a relationship as > possible which is why I wanted to know about the wild behaviour. If they > only get together during the mating season we will keep them separate > and create a mating season by putting them together at the appropriate > time (this is another piece of information we are missing i.e. when is > the mating season). Again, my experience is with aquatic turtles and part of what follows is my opinion based on my experience. 1) We could have quite the debate about what is considered a natural relationship. Do these turtles have choices re: spending time together? For example, I house turtles in a large area that allows them to be together or apart - their choice. Sometimes they are together, sometimes apart. There appears to be a circadian rhythm to this and I can almost regularly find them together or apart depending on the time of day. 2) Sometimes my turtles have what my vets call "turtle wars". They have definite territories within their housing that is theirs and theirs alone and will push, pull and shove the other turtle who trespasses. This seems to be specific to basking area (so I provide a basking area for each turtle although they will sometimes choose to bask together in some areas that appear to be neutral). My personal opinion - life can be boring without interactions, aggressive or otherwise. As long as they are not hurting one another an appear to settle their disputes to their satisfaction. 3) Natural physiological processes in reptiles are environment specific. > I'm hard pressed to see a nutritional problem here but I will look into > this further. Most of the other female turtles in the collection have > laid eggs so I am assuming if this is nutritional it is a specific > problem with the box turtles, this individual turtle, or a micronutrient > deficieny hard to detect. I am not a vet so consider the following accordingly. I am working on nutritional patologies in reptiles. Most cases of egg retention presented at our veterinary hospital are due to dietary imbalances of calcium, phosphorus and vitamin D3 as well as inappropriate light spectrums and temperatures with which to utilize these nutrients. Other factors could be inappropriate nesting substrates (can turtles willingly retain their eggs), large egg size (relative to pelvic region) and egg position (e.g., crosswise to pelvic region). Nora - I would be interested to know of your solution. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 9-SEP-1998 08:42:59.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: more surplus killing For those interested in surplus killing, another reference!! Surplus killing in the hunting strategy of small predators The American Naturalist Vol 126, #3, 1985 Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 9-SEP-1998 08:51:34.66 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Turtle sex -REPONSE Is the "Clinton" in the "from line" the same one that I have heard about on TV? >>> DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA> 09/09/ 08h49 >>>Dear Catherine: Yes - I know randy means horny. I asked "describe it". For example, what specific behavioural indices demonstrate "randy". Deb > Date sent: Tue, 8 Sep 1998 18:23:41 -0400 > From: clinton@consumersgas.com (Catherine Linton) From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 9-SEP-1998 09:03:11.02 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Turtle sex -REPONSE Jeff > From: clinton@consumersgas.com (Catherine Linton) > Is the "Clinton" in the "from line" the same one that I have > heard about on TV? Your question reminds me that when the general election results were declared in Tony Blair's constituency last year, his full name turned out to be Antony Charles Linton Blair, which makes him A Clinton Blair. Is he a clone? We should be told. Mike From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 9-SEP-1998 09:58:55.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: live feeding Dear All,=20 Many of the replies/comments on the issue of feeding live prey appear=20 to take a rather one-sided view and state support for the practice=20 because it improves the welfare of the bears and the wolves. =20 Contrastingly, I have tried to take a more holistic view and considered=20 the welfare of all animals involved. In any procedure or action which=20 might involve harm of an organism, such as environmental enrichment, we=20 must assess whether this is ethically justifiable. In making this=20 assessment, we should weigh up the costs and benefits. =20 The costs in this case are - 1. The rats are presumably laboratory strains reared under typical=20 laboratory style conditions in small, barren cages at high stocking=20 densities with a monotonous diet and quite possibly becoming blind due=20 to the light intesnsities routinely used. It is now widely regarded=20 that such housing can compromise the welfare of these animals. =20 2. Death for the rats is not quick. Sometimes they are hunted for up=20 to 9 hours, repeatedly chased, caught, released and chased again. =20 Rats are used routinely as models for the testing of analgesics and=20 anxiolytics, drugs which are then used by humans to relieve pain and=20 mental suffering, suggesting rats must experience similar negative=20 states. Presumably then, the rats are capable of experiencing=20 considerable pain and mental suffering during the hunting process. The benefits derived from feeding of live prey in this instance are=20 dubious. It is suggested this form of enrichment improves the welfare=20 of the bears and wolves because it changes their behaviour, increases=20 the behavioural repertoire, and promotes evolved or =D4natural=D5=20 behaviour. But this is a misleading and dangerous arguement to use. =20 Shooting a gun above the heads of the bears will change their behaviour=20 and increase the behavioural repertoire, but does it improve their=20 welfare? Animals, particularly social species, have evolved to show=20 pain, e.g. limping, lethargy, presentation of wounds to conspecifics=20 for cleaning. But does this mean we should cause the animals pain so=20 that they exhibit these evolved behaviours? It is =D4natural=D5 for bear= =20 cubs to be eaten by predators and for wolves to starve to death, but=20 should we release predators into the cages with the bears and withdraw=20 food from the wolves? In some postings on this issue, various other possible benefits have=20 been suggested, but the authors of the original article did NOT=20 state=20 -the bears and wolves will only accept live prey -there is a dietary requirement for live prey -the bears and wolves must be taught to hunt prior to re-introduction Overall then, the costs seem to considerably outweigh the benefits. In a private posting, I have been informed that live deer and domestic=20 pigs are sometimes fed to tigers (anyone feeling a bit more squemish=20 about this subject now?) and yet the article immediately preceeding=20 the one suggesting feeding rats, informs us that hanging a burlap bag=20 full of branches and leaves keeps Indo-Chinese tigers occupied for many=20 hours. Which is the more ethically acceptable form of enrichment? ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (01934) 853 443 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 9-SEP-1998 11:00:08.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Live Feeding Chris Sherwin wrote: > the article immediately preceeding > the one suggesting feeding rats, informs us that hanging a burlap bag > full of branches and leaves keeps Indo-Chinese tigers occupied for many > hours. Which is the more ethically acceptable form of enrichment? ....and which is the more creative approach to enrichment on the part of the animal with the large frontal lobe? Donna Reynolds From: IN%"colette.clarke@bbsrc.ac.uk" "colette.clarke" 9-SEP-1998 11:23:00.63 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Live Feeding >>Chris Sherwin wrote: >> >>> the article immediately preceeding >>> the one suggesting feeding rats, informs us that hanging a burlap bag >>> full of branches and leaves keeps Indo-Chinese tigers occupied for many >>> hours. Which is the more ethically acceptable form of enrichment? >> >>....and which is the more creative approach to enrichment on the part >>of the animal with the large frontal lobe? >> >>Donna Reynolds But does 'a more creative approach to enrichment' for 'animals with a large frontal lobe' necessarily have to involve feeding? Colette Clarke From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 9-SEP-1998 11:46:58.83 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: live feeding -REPONSE >>> Chris Sherwin 11/06/ 03h41 >>>In any procedure or action which might involve harm of an organism, such as environmental enrichment, we must assess whether this is ethically justifiable. In making this assessment, we should weigh up the costs and benefits.>>> The utilitarian approach to ethics sounds very attractive in principle but this case shows how hard it is to apply it in practice. Is there any realistic chance that we will be able to weigh up the benfits to the predator (assuming there are any) and the costs to the prey? >>>The costs in this case are - 1. The rats are presumably laboratory strains reared under typical laboratory style conditions >>> but wouldn't they be housed this way anyway? >>>2. Death for the rats is not quick. Sometimes they are hunted for up to 9 hours, repeatedly chased, caught, released and chased again. >>> Perhaps the practice would be more ethically acceptable if the rats had some choice about whether or not to enter, and had a better chance of surviving. E.g. rather than throwing in the rats, perhaps highly palatable rat food could be put in the cage (or a bird feeder!) and escape routes provided. If a sustainable population of rats could be kept in the cage with a relatively low probability of being caught and a reasonable life expectancy, would this be more acceptable? Most national parks have large predators which are to all intents and purposes "captive". We don't feel any obligation to stop them hunting. >>>The benefits derived from feeding of live prey in this instance are dubious. >>> I think they are more unknown than dubious. We know very little about predator motivation. Personally, I will be surprised if allowing them to hunt doesn't improve the quality of their lives (but I don't know). Jeff Rushen From: IN%"arkabc@arkanimals.com" 9-SEP-1998 12:47:20.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: second request for resources I am looking for citations discussing nuances of behavior in a variety of mammals; posturing (ie., body tension), and changes positions of eyes, ears, mouth, fins/flukes, vibrissae, tail, etc., I would appreciate any assistance on this matter. References will be used in an upcoming book, and for my students in a general "Understanding Animal Behavior" course. The course is not specific to any one species and covers a history of animal behavior, discussions of different types of animal training techniques, the differences in working with a variety of species (both non-domestic and domestic), realistic expectations from animals, proper animal etiquette, determining needs of animals, methods of animal communication, learning to read animal behavior, and referrals/references to related books/journals. Please send these directly to me at arkabc@arkanimals.com and I will gladly post the final list on this listserver or send them directly upon request. Regards, Diana Guerrero From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 9-SEP-1998 14:53:54.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Live feeding colette.clarke wrote: > >> > >>....and which is the more creative approach to enrichment on the part > >>of the animal with the large frontal lobe? > >> > >>Donna Reynolds > > But does 'a more creative approach to enrichment' for 'animals with a large > frontal lobe' necessarily have to involve feeding? > > Colette Clarke The 'creative approach to enrichment' suggested was meant to put the challenge into the laps of the large-frontal-lobe-animal: the human who is designing the challenges. Sorry if the short sentence was not clear. Regarding your question: In my experience with designing enrichment opportunites for captive animals, food is always a useful motivator for encouraging problem solving and variety in the animals' lives. However, I feel enrichment opportunities that inspire a sense of play offer equally important benefits to the captive animal. Donna Reynolds From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 10-SEP-1998 06:39:11.75 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Call for speakers Lyon 22-24 Sept. 1999 Hello, I would like to remember to all of you the call for lectures for the International Clinical Ethology Conference (ESVCE, GECAF) during the WSAVA meeting in Lyon (France) the 22-24 September 1999. The proposals must arrive to the secretary Dr G. Muller (112 rue du Faubourg de Roubaix, 59800 Lille France, gmulle@nordnet.fr) before the 30th of September 1998. More information on http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/lyon99.htm Dr Joel Dehasse http://www.ethovet.com From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 10-SEP-1998 08:18:46.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: re:live prey Re: Welfare concerns feeding live prey: Many captive predators fed live prey are often injured by their prey. It is understandable that the prey will become defensive (perhaps even offensive). The predator is often not that good at its job of killing because of gaps in learning, practice and even physical capability. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" 10-SEP-1998 09:18:46.60 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: turtle watching Degorah, The information you sent was almost exactly what I was searching for. Now I know that there are still much we can learn about turtles and chickens, and can better inform and educate our children on these animals and the way they live in their environments. If there is any other insights you may share, I would gladly appreciate them. My main concern is how learning from and about animal behaviors can help us teach our future adults(our children) how to take care of the world we live in and all that is in it. How all this training and research we do helps them better understand the animals we go see at zoos, parks, in the wild, on T.V.,in books, and those we have as pets. I think educating the children is very important, so that they can respect all animals. Arlene On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > Response to aarmenta@panam1: > > I am not sure what you are asking. Do you mean observing ANY > animal's behaviour? Or, animal behaviour in general? I'll assume > you are asking re: turtles: > > 1) What have I learned from observations re: turtle behaviour? > > A lot about turtles although I am handicapped in understanding a > lot of my observations because of a lack of literature on turtle > behaviour. Turtles appear to have definite likes, wants and dislikes > and pity the person or other animal that gets in the way of fulfilling > their desires. > Turtles have very primitive brains (very little cortex) and their > behaviours appear to be more brain stem driven (e.g., emotive, > reactive). This does not mean they are "stupid". Turtles are astute > at finding escape routes, manipulating their environment and relating > to their environment. They can identify individuals (humans also) and > appear to treat individuals different based on identification. > > 2) How (does this) benefit my research and knowledge of the animals I > study? > > I just finished an intensive study with chickens. Chickens, as > you now, have a physiology that contains aspects of reptilian > physiology. I find, as well, that behaviours are similar and ways of > successfully relating to chickens works with turtles. > In general, there are aspects of behaviour that are shared by > many taxons and most of what I observe in any animal is useful at > some point in relating to other animals. > > > > > ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- > > Date sent: Tue, 08 Sep 1998 16:00:15 -0500 (CDT) > From: aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu > Subject: Re: turtle behaviour > To: Deborah McWilliams > Copies to: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > What have you learned from observing animals' behavior? How has this > benefited your research and knowledge of the animals you study? Any > information you can provide would be most helpful. AARMENTA@panam.edu > > On Tue, 8 Sep 1998, Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > To Nora and other Turtle folks: > > > > > We have two Eastern Box Turtles male and female. The female has recently > > > been treated for retained eggs (no clinical signs we found these on > > > x-ray by chance). > > > > Retained eggs usually result from dietary imbalances. > > > > > > > > Nora: Please describe "randy" behavior by the male turtle. > > > > Deb > > > > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > > > Deborah A. McWilliams > > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > > University of Guelph > > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > --IAA20678.905344896/wright.aps.uoguelph.ca-- > > > > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science > University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > From: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" 10-SEP-1998 09:35:36.55 To: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: live prey for enrichment -Reply As I wrote in another reply, The animals we view in zoos and other places are simply bored. It is not unethical to have them for our viewing pleasure because we can teach our children(allchildren) how to respect these animals when and if they ever encounter them in the wild. I think the animals in the circus career should be better cared for because it is cruel for these animals to be subjected to undignified tricks. If circus trainers explained during the shows about the animals they work with and the things they are capable of learning, then that would be different. Now, at the San Diego Zoo they are providing enrichment activities for the animals to overcome their boredom. They also feed their predatory birds mice that have been put to sleep, but are still whole. The birds pick up a mouse, and dip it in the water to rinse it off and clean it. I thought this was so facinating. Bears and wolves need the stimulation of catching prey because they miss the interaction with their natural environment which some have never known. Wolves travel vast distances in packs and sometimes just want to do the things that wolves do.("Dogs Never Lie About Love"-ch.7 byJeffrey Moussaieff Masson) The reason feeding live rats seems strange to us (humans) is because we don't want to do the things wolves and bears do. See - ya! Arlene On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Paul Carella wrote: > > > >>> Chris Sherwin 06/09/83 03:08am >>> > Dear All, > > A recent article in the newsletter 'The Shape of Enrichment' describes > the feeding of live rats to bears and wolves as a form of environmental > enrichment. Although some rats escape from the enclosure (the authors > > estimate 15% of rats escape) others are hunted, sometimes for up to 9 > hours, caught, sometimes played with whilst still alive, and then > killed and eaten by the bears and wolves. > > The authors appear to justify feeding of live rats on the basis that > the predatory behaviour of the bears and wolves is 'natural' and has > evolved, therefore its expression indicates an improvement of welfare. > I am sure most subscribers to this list are aware of the considerable > dangers of such an approach to assessing welfare. > > My concern is that if advocating the feeding of live vertebrate prey as > a method of enrichment is not challenged on the basis of being > ethically and perhaps scientifically unsound, it will be used by > others thereby resulting in a considerable amount of suffering for the > prey species with dubious benefits for the predators. > > > ---------------------- > Chris Sherwin > Division of Animal Health and Husbandry > University of Bristol > Langford House > Langford > Bristol > BS40 5DU > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 > Fax: (01934) 853 443 > E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk > > > The ethical question goes beyond using live prey for captive predators. > The question is whether it is ethical to confine wild animals for the > viewing entertainment of the public. > > Paul > From: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" 10-SEP-1998 09:45:06.90 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: live feeding -REPONSE Like I said everyone! The rat feeding thing only seems offensive and cruel to us because we arn't wolves or bears or other rat eating animals. We are the ones who caged up certain animals to begin with and now they are bored. Whatever method of enrichment we use, keep in mind that it is for the benifit of the animal. If a rat can find a way to escape the predator, then the rat earned another day of survival. They do the same thing in the wild. Live each day surviving another and doing the things they do in between. Arlene On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Jeff Rushen wrote: > >>> Chris Sherwin 11/06/ > 03h41 >>>In any procedure or action which might involve > harm of an organism, such as environmental enrichment, we > must assess whether this is ethically justifiable. In making > this assessment, we should weigh up the costs and > benefits.>>> > > The utilitarian approach to ethics sounds very attractive in > principle but this case shows how hard it is to apply it in > practice. Is there any realistic chance that we will be able to > weigh up the benfits to the predator (assuming there are > any) and the costs to the prey? > > >>>The costs in this case are - > 1. The rats are presumably laboratory strains reared under > typical laboratory style conditions >>> > > but wouldn't they be housed this way anyway? > > >>>2. Death for the rats is not quick. Sometimes they are > hunted for up to 9 hours, repeatedly chased, caught, > released and chased again. >>> > > Perhaps the practice would be more ethically acceptable if > the rats had some choice about whether or not to enter, and > had a better chance of surviving. E.g. rather than throwing in > the rats, perhaps highly palatable rat food could be put in > the cage (or a bird feeder!) and escape routes provided. If a > sustainable population of rats could be kept in the cage with > a relatively low probability of being caught and a > reasonable life expectancy, would this be more > acceptable? Most national parks have large predators > which are to all intents and purposes "captive". We don't > feel any obligation to stop them hunting. > > > >>>The benefits derived from feeding of live prey in this > instance are dubious. >>> > > I think they are more unknown than dubious. We know very > little about predator motivation. Personally, I will be > surprised if allowing them to hunt doesn't improve the quality > of their lives (but I don't know). > > Jeff Rushen > From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 10-SEP-1998 10:21:55.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Live Prey Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > Re: Welfare concerns feeding live prey: > > Many captive predators fed live prey are often injured by their prey. > It is understandable that the prey will become defensive (perhaps > even offensive). The predator is often not that good at its job of > killing because of gaps in learning, practice and even physical > capability. This is a dilemma faced when 'training' wild rehabbed animals to hunt before release. In the case of my releases, rats do pose dangers to young or 'out of practice' raptors in an enclosed flight aviary because the bird may not yet be able to avoid a damaging bite during the kill. The bird is being presented with an opportunity before he/she may be ready for it and in additon to the injury, may become 'superstitious' of rats in the future. The release of domestic mice into the flight offers some practice of hunting skills, however, domestic rodents do not behave in the same manner as wild rodents (getting back to an earlier discussion of whether domestics act differently than wild animals). Domestic mice do not scurry for cover in the same way a mouse trapped from the wild would. It is disheartening to watch a trusting (of the situation), slow-moving mouse wander right under the belly of a suprised raptor. This behavior on the part of the mouse seems to confuse the raptor, who seems to need to have its predator instincts triggered by an animal that "knows" how to be a prey animal and move accordingly. The raptor may grab this slow-moving mouse with its talons, but the kill is not as quick as it would be in a truer situation of a 'hunt' and I believe the mice do suffer longer than is necessary. So, offering this type of prey does have its own built-in limitations and, I believe, ethical considerations (especially if the offering of live prey was only for non-releasable animals) In addition to releasing mice into the enclosure of rehabbed raptors (our non-releasables do not recieve live food, but other types of enrichments instead), I am experimenting with the use of insects to develop raptors' interest in pursuing as well as offering inanimate objects that inspire pouncing practice. I am also interested in conditioning domestic mice to behave more as they would in the wild. Any suggestions on this would be appreciated. (Trapping wild mice would be ideal - however not altogether practical) Donna Reynolds (ps - For those who expressed an interest, I am still working on compiling info on the surplus killing and predator/prey selection, so will be posting it in the near future) From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 10-SEP-1998 11:05:16.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dogs "imprinting" on people Can anyone point me to some recent references that indicate whether young dogs actually "imprint" on people (or even if imprinting does occur in dogs!), or any articles that have systematically examined how dogs become socialized to people. I am aware of the old articles by Scott (1963). I have tried random library searches without a lot of success. I am afraid I am not familiar with the dog literature so I would appreciate some pointers. Thanks in advance Jeff Rushen From: IN%"smillman@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Suzanne Millman" 10-SEP-1998 11:05:16.11 To: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: boredom? Arlene I think you have a raised some interesting issues here. 1) What is boredom? I agree with you that there probably are some animals experiencing boredom in a captive setting, but I struggle to define what I mean by that. Is boredom an element of depression or a category by itself? 2) If the welfare of animals in zoos is diminished because they are "bored", then perhaps circus animals performing for an audience are better cared for? I don't know that animals have a concept of dignity (excepting cats of course). Cheers, Suzanne Millman Date sent: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:32:54 -0500 (CDT) From: aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu Subject: Re: live prey for enrichment -Reply To: Paul Carella Copies to: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca As I wrote in another reply, The animals we view in zoos and other places are simply bored. It is not unethical to have them for our viewing pleasure because we can teach our children(allchildren) how to respect these animals when and if they ever encounter them in the wild. I think the animals in the circus career should be better cared for because it is cruel for these animals to be subjected to undignified tricks. If circus trainers explained during the shows about the animals they work with and the things they are capable of learning, then that would be different. Now, at the San Diego Zoo they are providing enrichment activities for the animals to overcome their boredom. They also feed their predatory birds mice that have been put to sleep, but are still whole. The birds pick up a mouse, and dip it in the water to rinse it off and clean it. I thought this was so facinating. Bears and wolves need the stimulation of catching prey because they miss the interaction with their natural environment which some have never known. Wolves travel vast distances in packs and sometimes just want to do the things that wolves do.("Dogs Never Lie About Love"-ch.7 byJeffrey Moussaieff Masson) The reason feeding live rats seems strange to us (humans) is because we don't want to do the things wolves and bears do. See - ya! Arlene On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Paul Carella wrote: > > > >>> Chris Sherwin 06/09/83 03:08am >>> > Dear All, > > A recent article in the newsletter 'The Shape of Enrichment' describes > the feeding of live rats to bears and wolves as a form of environmental > enrichment. Although some rats escape from the enclosure (the authors > > estimate 15% of rats escape) others are hunted, sometimes for up to 9 > hours, caught, sometimes played with whilst still alive, and then > killed and eaten by the bears and wolves. > > The authors appear to justify feeding of live rats on the basis that > the predatory behaviour of the bears and wolves is 'natural' and has > evolved, therefore its expression indicates an improvement of welfare. > I am sure most subscribers to this list are aware of the considerable > dangers of such an approach to assessing welfare. > > My concern is that if advocating the feeding of live vertebrate prey as > a method of enrichment is not challenged on the basis of being > ethically and perhaps scientifically unsound, it will be used by > others thereby resulting in a considerable amount of suffering for the > prey species with dubious benefits for the predators. > > > ---------------------- > Chris Sherwin > Division of Animal Health and Husbandry > University of Bristol > Langford House > Langford > Bristol > BS40 5DU > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 > Fax: (01934) 853 443 > E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk > > > The ethical question goes beyond using live prey for captive predators. > The question is whether it is ethical to confine wild animals for the > viewing entertainment of the public. > > Paul > From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 10-SEP-1998 11:21:42.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: boredom? Hello Suzanne!!! (By the way, maybe we should start scheduling the next coffee if we want to get it in by midsemester!!!). > 1) What is boredom? I agree with you that there probably are > some animals experiencing boredom in a captive setting, but I > struggle to define what I mean by that. Is boredom an element of > depression or a category by itself? Depression is a pathological condition so I would separate it from boredom although boredom could lead to pathological conditions. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" 10-SEP-1998 11:38:14.72 To: IN%"smillman@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Suzanne Millman" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: boredom? Suzanne, well, what behaviors do you express/present when you are bored? I don't mean that animals act like humans, but there are some similar behavior traits/patterns expressed when we and animals are bored. My dogs start to dig holes in the ground when they are restless/bored. Some animals in zoos pace due to anxiety/boredom/restlessness. These three expressions are so similar one can see the same/similar traits/behaviors. Perhaps the stimulation provided by training new behaviors provides some relief from boredom, but can all animals be trained/learn new things? Does adaptation play a role? I still feel that animals are better cared for in zoos and other parks rather than circuses. I have yet to meet a happy circus animal. What about racing greyhounds? They race, but are kept confined to cages without any other stimulation. Any thoughts? I just want to than all of you who reply. All this is VERY helpful. Arlene On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Suzanne Millman wrote: > Arlene I think you have a raised some interesting issues here. > > 1) What is boredom? I agree with you that there probably are > some animals experiencing boredom in a captive setting, but I > struggle to define what I mean by that. Is boredom an element of > depression or a category by itself? > > 2) If the welfare of animals in zoos is diminished because they are > "bored", then perhaps circus animals performing for an audience > are better cared for? I don't know that animals have a concept of > dignity (excepting cats of course). > > Cheers, > Suzanne Millman > > Date sent: Thu, 10 Sep 1998 10:32:54 -0500 (CDT) > From: aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu > Subject: Re: live prey for enrichment -Reply > To: Paul Carella > Copies to: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > As I wrote in another reply, The animals we view in zoos and other places > are simply bored. It is not unethical to have them for our viewing > pleasure because we can teach our children(allchildren) how to respect > these animals when and if they ever encounter them in the wild. I think > the animals in the circus career should be better cared for because it is > cruel for these animals to be subjected to undignified tricks. If circus > trainers explained during the shows about the animals they work with and > the things they are capable of learning, then that would be different. > Now, at the San Diego Zoo they are providing enrichment activities for the > animals to overcome their boredom. They also feed their predatory birds > mice that have been put to sleep, but are still whole. The birds pick up a > mouse, and dip it in the water to rinse it off and clean it. I thought > this was so facinating. Bears and wolves need the stimulation of catching > prey because they miss the interaction with their natural environment > which some have never known. Wolves travel vast distances in packs and > sometimes just want to do the things that wolves do.("Dogs Never Lie About > Love"-ch.7 byJeffrey Moussaieff Masson) The reason feeding live rats seems > strange to us (humans) is because we don't want to do the things wolves > and bears do. See - ya! Arlene > > On Wed, 9 Sep 1998, Paul Carella wrote: > > > > > > > >>> Chris Sherwin 06/09/83 03:08am >>> > > Dear All, > > > > A recent article in the newsletter 'The Shape of Enrichment' describes > > the feeding of live rats to bears and wolves as a form of environmental > > enrichment. Although some rats escape from the enclosure (the authors > > > > estimate 15% of rats escape) others are hunted, sometimes for up to 9 > > hours, caught, sometimes played with whilst still alive, and then > > killed and eaten by the bears and wolves. > > > > The authors appear to justify feeding of live rats on the basis that > > the predatory behaviour of the bears and wolves is 'natural' and has > > evolved, therefore its expression indicates an improvement of welfare. > > I am sure most subscribers to this list are aware of the considerable > > dangers of such an approach to assessing welfare. > > > > My concern is that if advocating the feeding of live vertebrate prey as > > a method of enrichment is not challenged on the basis of being > > ethically and perhaps scientifically unsound, it will be used by > > others thereby resulting in a considerable amount of suffering for the > > prey species with dubious benefits for the predators. > > > > > > ---------------------- > > Chris Sherwin > > Division of Animal Health and Husbandry > > University of Bristol > > Langford House > > Langford > > Bristol > > BS40 5DU > > > > Phone: (0117) 928 9486 > > Fax: (01934) 853 443 > > E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk > > > > > > The ethical question goes beyond using live prey for captive predators. > > The question is whether it is ethical to confine wild animals for the > > viewing entertainment of the public. > > > > Paul > > > > From: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" 10-SEP-1998 11:42:37.18 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: dogs "imprinting" on people Jeff, I don't think imprinting exists in dogs. Imprinting is an instinct of survival. Dogs seem to "know" that we(humans) are not dogs. Animals that imprint usually "assume" that the imprinted parent IS their mother and that is who THEY are. The book "Dogs Never Lie About Love" by: Jeffrey Moussaiff Masson has a lot of insight and his bibliography provides other resources on this subject. Arlene On Thu, 10 Sep 1998, Jeff Rushen wrote: > Can anyone point me to some recent references that > indicate whether young dogs actually "imprint" on people > (or even if imprinting does occur in dogs!), or any articles > that have systematically examined how dogs become > socialized to people. I am aware of the old articles by Scott > (1963). > > I have tried random library searches without a lot of > success. I am afraid I am not familiar with the dog literature > so I would appreciate some pointers. > > Thanks in advance > > Jeff Rushen > From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 10-SEP-1998 12:29:39.12 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ethology list" Subj: RE: dogs "imprinting" on people Jeff, Although I, like Arlene, do not believe imprinting is a good construct for looking at canine socialization to humans, I found Masson's book limited on hard data. > (or even if imprinting does occur in dogs!), or any articles > that have systematically examined how dogs become > socialized to people. I am aware of the old articles by Scott > (1963). Are you aware that Scott and Fuller's Genetics and the social behavior of the dog has recently been reprinted? I believe you are absolutely correct in saying that the literature is lacking in this area. For what it's worth, I conducted a pilot study for my MS that found tentative evidence for using a human developmental theory in which to view young puppy behavior toward humans. Please keep me posted on results of your inquiry! Peggy From: IN%"pfcarell@gw.dec.state.ny.us" "Paul Carella" 10-SEP-1998 12:45:28.68 To: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: live prey for enrichment -Reply -Reply I doubt that we really teach our children respect for animals by exposing them to the cruel practice of confining a wild animal to a cage. There are many ways to help promote a healthy appreciation for animals and nature that do not involve caging free-spirited creatures. Actually, it may illustrate to children how little we respect animals. I visited the San Diego zoo about a year ago, and I was impressed by how much "enjoyment" the usually lethargic polar bears were having in their large pool with a big, floating rubber ball. Thanks for your thoughts. Paul From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 10-SEP-1998 13:16:14.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Cross-fostering foals Dear All, The topic of cross-fostering young onto surrogate mothers is something I usually discuss in my lectures on maternal behaviour, but I know very little about cross-fostering foals onto surrogate mares. In Andrew Fraser's book, "The Behaviour of the Horse" he states, "Mares do not immediately know their own foals after birth, but bonding is firmly established in 2 hours. However, alien foals can be fostered on to mares for up to 3-4 days after birth. Early foal recognition is largely based on smell." I do not know, based on what Fraser writes, how 'easy' it is to cross- foster foals. It would seem to me that if recognition and bonding is firmly established within 2 hr. then crossfostering would be difficult. I wonder if mares, are in fact not completely able to recognize their foals within the first few days of birth? Maybe they 'recognize' their foals during the first few days based on a foal/mare proximity that they never exceed. In other words, maybe they can infer based on the proximity of the foal that it is theirs and the fact they never leave the side of the foal during the first few days they do not 'need' to be able to recognize their foal immediately. Otherwise, I do not see how one can 'easily' crossfoster an alien foal onto a surrogate mare 3-4 days after birth. The mare should be able to discriminate against an alien foal by 3-4 days if the 2 hour bonding hypothesis is correct. Maybe horses use a sort of 'mobile-spatial' memory (ie they know where their foal is at all times) to tell which one is their offspring without really being able to recognize their offspring until a later time period (maybe days instead of hours after birth). Does anyone have any experience with crossfostering foals or have any evidence for when recognition between a mare and a foal is complete? I have tried to track down an article on grafting foals, but have been unsuccessful. Any information or insight you might have would be appreciated. Thank you, Joe ------------------------------ Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 10-SEP-1998 13:39:49.94 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ethology list" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cross-fostering foals Joseph, > "Mares do not immediately know their own foals after birth, but > bonding is firmly established in 2 hours. However, alien foals can be > fostered on to mares for up to 3-4 days after birth. Early foal > recognition is largely based on smell." Folk lore in sheep (sorry!) says that once the ewe's milk passes through the young un's system, the ewe will very likely accept it within the 3-4 day window from this quote. My guess is that there are articles in the agricultural literature for cross-fostering lambs. Good luck, PEggy From: IN%"KAKerby@aol.com" 10-SEP-1998 19:57:31.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: environmental enrichment I've been debating with myself whether I wanted to enter this fray, because a) it can become very heated and b) I'm so close to it, having been the EE coordinator at a zoo in the past. I'll try not to make any grand statements, but here are a few ideas to chew on: a) We have to be very careful when we think about 'free animals' and 'confined animals'. Most animals in the wild have boundaries that they must live within. While some of these boundaries are invisible or subtle to us, they are just as absolute and restrictive as the bars/moats/screens/fences that we more easily see in zoos. So the issue isn't so much whether or not an animal is 'free', it's more of whether or not an animal is free to move about and react as it chooses within those boundaries. And more work is now being done to allow captive animals the option to choose where to sleep, what and when to eat, which con-specifics to spend time with, etc. b) It's rather inappropriate to designate animals as being 'happier' in zoos vs. circuses. There are simply too many variables, both within each category and between them. Besides, I find that 'happiness' is in the eye of the beholder. Many times I've overheard conversations between animal handlers where one insists the animal is happy, the other insists it's not. Which one is right? I don't know if we can yet adequately quantify 'or qualify happiness'. But if we could I'd bet that we'd find many different levels of happiness within both zoos and circuses. And perhaps the more interesting question would be to ask if animals are happier in captivity or in the wild. While I know that some zoo or circus animals would sprint away if given the choice, wild animals have also voluntarily taken up residence at zoos because of the free meals, relative freedom from predators, and more suitable living conditions than is available to them in the wild. I've also read about captive animals who were let out or got out, and returned to captivity of their own volition. c) EE is conducted for many reasons: 1) giving the animals a variety of activities so as to avoid stress, boredom, and the health problems that accompany both; 2) giving them the opportunity to engage in SOME of the behaviors or environments or circumstances they'd experience if living in the wild, 3) giving visitors the opportunity to observe and learn about realistic animal behavior, even when it's not so pretty; 4) giving researchers the opportunity to test certain things that they wouldn't have the opportunity to test with a wild population; 5) making sure we keep alive not only the genetic pool but the behavioral repertoires for endangered species; the list could go on. And yes, there are limitations, and difficult choices. But these animals present us with an opportunity to learn, to teach, to experience, and to conserve; not only for our sake, but for theirs as well. Even though I've laid awake at night more than once wondering how best to pick my way through all the ethical, monetary, and practical considerations, I still think that EE can be of value to the staff, the visitors, the captive animals and their wild counterparts, perhaps not always individually, but almost certainly on a larger scale. d) EE is a relatively new field; we've only had three international conferences so far, and many facilities aren't conducting EE on a coordinated basis at all. Of those facilities who are practicing EE on an institution- wide basis, many are doing so with volunteers and donated materials, instead of having dedicated staffing or budgets. Knowledge of, support for, and acceptance of EE as a valuable practice is in its infancy. As we gather more experience and information, I have no doubts that we will be able to accomplish our goals, while better satisfying the ethical concerns we have about all the parties involved. So keep those comments and criticisms and concerns rolling in; we'll incorporate them into our work as best we can. From: IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk" "Nigel Goodwin" 11-SEP-1998 02:16:07.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: enrichment -Reply -Reply > I visited the San Diego zoo about a year ago, and I was impressed by > how much "enjoyment" the usually lethargic polar bears were having in > their large pool with a big, floating rubber ball. My lasting memory of visiting San Diego zoo a few years ago is also the polar bears - and how lethargic they looked! But then I suppose I would be if my fur was adapted to Arctic climes, and I was stuck in an enclosure in the baking sun of southern California. Does effective environmental enrichment include a consideration of where an animal came from, or does a floating rubber ball eradicate such trivialities? It's ironic that the comparatively "ugly" tropical insects in zoos are housed in exactly the right conditions of temperature and humidity, but the big fluffy cuddly creatures that attract people there in the first place are expected to endure whatever environmental conditions they find themselves in. I don't suppose cost has anything to do with this, does it??? ;) Nigel From: IN%"cmejdell@online.no" "Cecilie M. Mejdell" 11-SEP-1998 02:31:11.54 To: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: live feeding -REPONSE At 10:42 10.09.98 -0500, you wrote: >The rat feeding thing only seems offensive and cruel >to us because we arn't wolves or bears or other rat eating animals. They do the same thing in the >wild. Hello Mother nature is rough. Human values, as care for the weak, have no place in the wild. However, we may respect and admire nature and wildlife and at the same time value humanity in our society and in our attitude towards animals. When we keep wild animals in captivity, in an artificial and often barren environment, we should not believe that we can reconstruct nature by offering wolfs some live prey animals. They are still in captivity, these animals which otherwise would roam miles and miles a day. On the contrary, when we keep animals, i.e. farm animals, pets or zoo animals, under conditions which we choose, when we have taken the full responsibility for the animals, human rules (humanity) should be applied. We do not (I hope) buy birds, mice and rabbits so that our cats and dogs can be more "natural" and experience the joy of hunting (but of course we accept that cats catch wild birds and a dog kills a wild rabbit). We do not starve captive wolfs, even though starvation is "normal" for wild wolfs. The difference is what happens in nature (the survival of the fittest) and what people actively do as moral human beeings (humanity). For the sake of the prey animals, I do not think it is ethical to feed captive predators with live prey. There must be other methods for enrichment. If we are not able to supply captive animals with an acceptable invironment, we should not keep theese animals. That is also an option. Cecilie Cecilie Mejdell Norwegian Council on Animal Ethics 2500 Tynset, Norway T. (47) 62482026 F. (47) 62482326 From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 11-SEP-1998 02:59:59.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: boredom? Hi everyone, > 1) What is boredom? I agree with you that there probably are > some animals experiencing boredom in a captive setting, but I > struggle to define what I mean by that. Is boredom an element of > depression or a category by itself? I think boredom is related to attention, and habituation. When the environment is constant for some length of time, animals (humans included) habituate to it. Many parts of the environemnt are ignored, thus there is less "stimulation" and you get bored. When the environment changes, attention is triggered. How this happens, from a physiological and neurological point of view, is not well understood. > 2) If the welfare of animals in zoos is diminished because they are > "bored", then perhaps circus animals performing for an audience > are better cared for? I don't know that animals have a concept of > dignity (excepting cats of course). If you take the attention/habituation viewpoint, a circus environment is as boring as any other _constant_ environment, since the animals do the same things every day. Cheers, Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 11-SEP-1998 03:01:59.21 To: IN%"SBXNG@sbn3.phes.nottingham.ac.uk" "Nigel Goodwin" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: enrichment -Reply -Reply Hi, > It's ironic that the comparatively "ugly" tropical > insects in zoos are housed in exactly the right conditions of > temperature and humidity, but the big fluffy cuddly creatures that > attract people there in the first place are expected to endure > whatever environmental conditions they find themselves in. I don't > suppose cost has anything to do with this, does it??? ;) Probably the tropical insects (and even bigger animals) just die if conditions depart significantly from tropicality. Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 11-SEP-1998 07:17:49.17 To: IN%"smillman@APS.UoGuelph.CA", IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: boredom? -REPONSE >>> 10/09/ 13h35 >>> there are some similar behavior traits/patterns expressed when we and animals are bored. My dogs start to dig holes in the ground when they are restless/bored. Some animals in zoos pace due to anxiety/boredom/restlessness. >>> Actually I don't dig holes in the ground when I am bored. I have never found the concept of boredom particularly useful in understanding the behavioural requirements of captive animals. It has proven particularly unuseful in explaining stereotypic behaviour. First, it is ver y difficult to decide exactly what behaviours an animal would show if it were "bored". Second, saying that an animal is "bored" does not give much idea of how to improve it's environment. The concept of boredom implies that an animal just wants to do something i.e. anything. It is more useful to try to understand the specific needs of animals. I suspect your dog digs holes in the ground because it is trying to perform some specific behaviours rather than because it is "restless". For example, animals that need to perform more foraging behaviour usually show some form of stereotyped foraging behaviours and we can prevent these behaviours by providing them more opportunity to forage. The problem is the lack of foraging opportunity. Saying that an animal is bored, doesn't add anything. Stereotypic behaviours usually involve a limited selection of the animal's behavioural repertoire, and the particular behavioural content of the stereotypy in most cases reflects the specific problem. The same problem holds for the idea that boredom arises when the environment is too constant. In such cases animals may be missing some of the specific stimulation they require, but I doubt that they want "stimulation" regardless of what type of stimulation is involved. Finally boredom is not a feeling that humans experience. Rather it is a name that we use to describe certain feelings that we experience in certain situations. We may find that "boredom" is not a useful way of describing our feelings either (and probably for the same reasons). Jeff Rushen From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 11-SEP-1998 09:26:32.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology-error" CC: Subj: RE: Cross-fostering foals Joe: I am not aware of any systematic studies on fostering foals either. Let me know if you come up with something. Ed ---------- >From: applied-ethology-error >To: applied-ethology >Cc: STOOKEY >Subject: Cross-fostering foals >Date: Thursday, September 10, 1998 1:15PM > > >Dear All, > >The topic of cross-fostering young onto surrogate mothers is something I >usually discuss in my lectures on maternal behaviour, but I know very >little about cross-fostering foals onto surrogate mares. > >In Andrew Fraser's book, "The Behaviour of the Horse" he states, > > "Mares do not immediately know their own foals after birth, but >bonding is firmly established in 2 hours. However, alien foals can be >fostered on to mares for up to 3-4 days after birth. Early foal >recognition is largely based on smell." > >I do not know, based on what Fraser writes, how 'easy' it is to cross- >foster foals. It would seem to me that if recognition and bonding is >firmly established within 2 hr. then crossfostering would be difficult. I >wonder if mares, are in fact not completely able to recognize their foals >within the first few days of birth? Maybe they 'recognize' their foals >during the first few days based on a foal/mare proximity that they never >exceed. In other words, maybe they can infer based on the proximity of >the foal that it is theirs and the fact they never leave the side of the >foal during the first few days they do not 'need' to be able to recognize >their foal immediately. Otherwise, I do not see how one can 'easily' >crossfoster an alien foal onto a surrogate mare 3-4 days after birth. The >mare should be able to discriminate against an alien foal by 3-4 days if >the 2 hour bonding hypothesis is correct. Maybe horses use a sort of >'mobile-spatial' memory (ie they know where their foal is at all times) >to tell which one is their offspring without really being able to >recognize their offspring until a later time period (maybe days instead of >hours after birth). > >Does anyone have any experience with crossfostering foals or have any >evidence for when recognition between a mare and a foal is complete? > >I have tried to track down an article on grafting foals, but have been >unsuccessful. Any information or insight you might have would be >appreciated. > >Thank you, > >Joe > > >------------------------------ >Joseph M. Stookey >Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology >Western College of Veterinary Medicine >University of Saskatchewan >Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 > > > From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 11-SEP-1998 10:19:42.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"IDUNCAN@APS.UOGUELPH.CA", IN%"f.wemelsfelder@ed.sac.ac.uk" Subj: RE: boredom? -REPONSE Dear All Jeff wrote: >The concept of boredom implies that an > animal just wants to do something i.e. anything. It is more > useful to try to understand the specific needs of animals. I > suspect your dog digs holes in the ground because it is > trying to perform some specific behaviours rather than > because it is "restless". For example, animals that need to > perform more foraging behaviour usually show some form > of stereotyped foraging behaviours and we can prevent > these behaviours by providing them more opportunity to > forage. The problem is the lack of foraging opportunity. > Saying that an animal is bored, doesn't add anything. Yes, I have always found it useful to distinguish between boredom and frustration. People used to say that tethered sows showed stereotypies because they were bored. It was Jeff who first suggested that the main problem was that they were frustrated from feeding and foraging - and we found supporting evidence for that in Edinburgh. I think of frustration as applying to specific motivations, like motivation for feeding, or sex, or nesting. Sometimes when we say we are bored, we are actually frustrated ('I'd rather be sailing'). One way to think of boredom is as the result of a shortage of GENERAL stimulation, and the question then arises whether animals that have all their specific motivations satisfied WANT general stimulation. In the case of tethered sows, the answer usually seems to be no: if you feed them well, they lie down most of the time and it is very difficult to conclude that they are having problems with life. Another way to look at it was suggested by Ian Duncan - that boredom is frustration of exploration. Now exploration is often or usually tied in with searching FOR something, like food, so the next question is whether animals are motivated to explore (to seek general stimulation?) when they have eaten enough and satisfied all specific motivations. My guess is that most animals are not - the well-fed pig or lion or cat doesn't spend much time exploring. Two major exceptions would seem to be primates (including (some) humans - I think watching television could come under the heading of exploration here) and young animals - that need to learn about their environment. So I conclude that hens and pigs can't be bored (but maybe chicks and piglets can). Someone who would disagree with this is Francoise Wemelsfelder, who has written a lot on boredom in animals (and also on exploration). As I understand her position, she thinks tethered sows ARE bored, but that this is a stage that develops after a period of frustration, rather than occurring at an early stage of the confinement. This all arose out of the discussion on zoos. I was intrigued by Paul Carella's latest mail: > I doubt that we really teach our children respect for animals by > exposing them to the cruel practice of confining a wild animal to a > cage. There are many ways to help promote a healthy appreciation > for animals and nature that do not involve caging free-spirited > creatures. Actually, it may illustrate to children how little we > respect animals. > > I visited the San Diego zoo about a year ago, and I was impressed by > how much "enjoyment" the usually lethargic polar bears were having > in their large pool with a big, floating rubber ball. My main point was that encounter with the animals themselves was what matters most for children. OF COURSE it is better for them to be in better conditions rather than worse. But there is an interesting contrast between Paul's two paragraphs. In the first he talks about the cruelty of confining a wild animal. In the second he describes a situation in which - for at least the time he was watching them - the animals did not seem to be suffering. They did not seem to be bored, anyway! Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"Herman@hpeet.demon.nl" "Herman Peet" 11-SEP-1998 12:39:28.21 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied ethology list'" CC: Subj: RE: dogs "imprinting" on people Jeff Rushen wrote: > Can anyone point me to some recent references that > indicate whether young dogs actually "imprint" on people > (or even if imprinting does occur in dogs!), or any articles > that have systematically examined how dogs become > socialized to people. I am aware of the old articles by Scott > (1963). I saved a copy of an article that Joel Dehasse used to have on his website, called "Sensory, Emotional and Social Development of the Young Dog". I did not check his site recently, but the article might still be there. If it has been removed, I might send you the electronic version. The main URL of his site is http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913 Hope this helps, Best regards, Herman Peet "Kwispel" dog training and behaviour counselling Hoofddorp, The Netherlands e-mail: Kwispel@hpeet.demon.nl www: http://www.hpeet.demon.nl From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 11-SEP-1998 14:46:53.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: preditor-prey Racer-Reynolds Illustration wrote: > > Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > > Re: Welfare concerns feeding live prey: > > > > Many captive predators fed live prey are often injured by their prey. > > It is understandable that the prey will become defensive(perhaps > > even offensive). The predator is often not that good at its job of > > killing because of gaps in learning, practice and even physical > > capability. > > This is a dilemma faced when 'training' wild rehabbed animals to > hunt before release. > In the case of my releases, rats do pose dangers to young or out of > practice' raptors in an enclosed flight aviary because the bird may > not yet be able to avoid a damaging bite during the kill. > The bird is being presented with an opportunity before he/she may be > ready for it and in additon to the injury, may become 'superstitious' > of rats in the future. > The release of domestic mice into the flight offers some practice of > hunting skills, however, domestic rodents do not behave in the same > manner as wild rodents (getting back to an earlier discussion of > whether domestics act differently than wild animals). Domestic mice do > not scurry for cover in the same way a mouse trapped from the wild > would. It is disheartening to watch a trusting (of the situation), > slow-moving mouse wander right under the belly of a suprised raptor. > This behavior on the part of the mouse seems to confuse the raptor, > who seems to need to have its predator instincts triggered by an > animal that "knows" how to be a prey animal and move accordingly. The > raptor may grab this slow-moving mouse with its talons, but the kill > is not as quick as it would be in a truer situation of a 'hunt' and I > believe the mice do suffer longer than is necessary. > So, offering this type of prey does have its own built-in > limitations and, I believe, ethical considerations (especially if the > offering of live prey was only for non-releasable animals) > In addition to releasing mice into the enclosure of rehabbed > raptors (our non-releasables do not recieve live food, but other types > of enrichments instead), I am experimenting with the use of insects to > develop raptors' interest in pursuing as well as offering inanimate > objects that inspire pouncing practice. > I am also interested in conditioning domestic mice to behave more > as they would in the wild. > Any suggestions on this would be appreciated. (Trapping wild mice > would be ideal - however not altogether practical) > > Donna Reynolds > (ps - For those who expressed an interest, I am still working on > compiling info on the surplus killing and predator/prey selection, so > will be posting it in the near future) Something similar is seen when snakes are fed live mice (occasional live mice must be fed when snakes temporarily go off dead). The mice do not seem to perceive the snake as dangerous and will walk around the cage in the open, checking out the new (much improved? (plants, space, rocks etc.)) environment. They will frequently walk over the snake and show no signs of aggitation. If the snakes do not strike immediately we remove the mice (only hungry snakes are allowed live mice so that the strike is quick and fatal, it also protects the snake because if there is no food for the mice they can eat the skin and muscle of the snake leaving a large sore) (I have not personally seen this dammage as mice are removed for their welfare and that of the snake if the strike is not quick). To add however to the questions on preditor prey relationships I observed a similar incidence of a wild mouse (in our house) which when chased (by us) ran under our cat to escape (no response from the cat which was busy watching our strange behaviour). In this case the mouse was wild but the cat was domestic and not acting like a preditor. It seems that the preditor prey relationship like many other animal animal interractions is a two way street in which the aberrant behaviour of one can cause aberrant behaviour in the other. Nora From: IN%"ivoryhaven@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 11-SEP-1998 21:38:32.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: boredom & Dignity The discussion applies to many different types of animals I know but I would like to comment about elephants. Some people refer to the "tricks" seen at the circus as unnatural tricks. I can show you that most are truly natural behavioprs put to human cues. For example: playing the harmonica is simply breathing with a prop. Standing on hind legs is used in the wild to reach the upper most leaves in a tall tree. Standing on ones head for elephants is a way of killing something or digging (with tusks). Kicking a ball uses the front of the foot, digging for water uses the back of the foot - same motion. I have seen elephants sit up, lie down and crawl while playing at a watering hole. About the only thing I have never seen an elephatn do naturally is skipping. The only way an elephant would "skip" in the wild is if it had a limp from an injury. These are a few.. As for enrichment....with elephants there is no live food to deal with..So enrichment comes from tires, tree stumps, browse (pine trees, branches, leaves), different types of hay, hiding treats to be found, ice and snow to eat and play with, at our farm our elephants each have their own dog for companionship and protection from intruders (human). An elephant with its own pet would be considered enrichment I believe. We also use music, changing barns for variety. We do not travel very often with the elephants here. The male actually stays on the farm only but the female still travels about 30 to 60 days a year for educational programs, display and commercials. The monies she earns help build our breeding facility. I will say that I prefer to sleep home at night and I think the elephants do to. I also prefer short drives to long ones and I am sure that they feel the same. But I also enjjoy variety and seeing new things. Elephants are amazingly intelligent and I think variety is the spice of life for them too. With such large migration roots in the wild it would seem natural for them to enjoy variety...So perhaps some animals on circuses actaully enjoy the traveling if it is done in a commpassionate, caring manner with the animals interests, health etc... kept in mind with regard to number of hours and number of days etc..I also think that there are some good zoos, some bad, some good circus, some good private facilities, some bad, just like with any industry and like with many people as well. After all "is every white male named Jeffrey a cannibal?" I think not... Just "food" for thought.... Sheree Walters From: IN%"dancun@hotmail.com" "Daniel Cunningham" 12-SEP-1998 01:50:45.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: captivity Paul wrote "I doubt that we really teach our children respect for animals by exposing them to the cruel practice of confining a wild animal to a cage. There are many ways to help promote a healthy appreciation for animals and nature that do not involve caging free-spirited creatures. Actually, it may illustrate to children how little we respect animals." It seems that one argument for captivity is to help strains survive in this time of rapidly depleting wild representatives. Now, I don't really believe, with the extent of human population growth, that most of the fuzzy looking but efficient large predators (big cats, bears, etc) that attract a lot of people to zoos will ever actually be reintroduced. But is it admirable to hold out such hopes. However, this argument breaks down with the presentation in zoos of various species which are not endangered. I guess that is unless we believe that these species will not end up dwindling and dissapearing as well. Sorry this sounds so bleak, but it seems to me that people who believe in animal rights need to work on more than just attitudes towards animals. We need to work on more global issues, such as the six billion people fighting for resources. Does anyone have any ideas on the subject? Do we have any technophiles out there who believe that technology will indeed save the day? Daniel S. Cunningham ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"dancun@hotmail.com" "Daniel Cunningham" 12-SEP-1998 02:16:17.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: correction I wrote: "But is it admirable to hold out such hopes." It should have read: "But it is admirable to hold out such hopes." Dan ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 12-SEP-1998 09:21:56.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'", IN%"iduncan@aps.uoguelph.ca" "Dr Duncan", IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" CC: Subj: RE: Food/Motivation/survival. Dear Mike and Jeff I'm very excited to see your comments and totally agree with your suggestions re. frustration vs.boredom and specific motivations. I believe insufficient emphasis is placed on the ingestion needs of our domestic animals ... maybe because we humans have easy access to the fridge or supermarket?! For what it's worth I presented a paper on this very issue sometime back which didn't exactly go down well ... In my paper I referred to Ian Duncan's Model of Motivation which clearly supports this theory and is invaluable in the treatment of most behavioural problems. (including stereotypies. ) If anyone is interested in my humble observations I would be very pleased to pass on more details. Glynne Anderson ********************************************************* NAME: GLYNNE ANDERSON CANINE ACADEMY ADDRESS: 32 Hospital Rd., Hillcrest, 3610, KwaZulu Natal, South Africa. TEL./FAX.: 27 (031) 7651958 E-MAIL: k9acad@iafrica.com WWW: http://users.iafrica.com/k/k9/k9acad ************************************************************ > From: Mike Appleby > To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > Cc: IDUNCAN@APS.UOGUELPH.CA; f.wemelsfelder@ed.sac.ac.uk > Subject: Re: boredom? -REPONSE > Date: Friday, September 11, 1998 7:17 PM > > Dear All > > Jeff wrote: > > >The concept of boredom implies that an > > animal just wants to do something i.e. anything. It is more > > useful to try to understand the specific needs of animals. I > > suspect your dog digs holes in the ground because it is > > trying to perform some specific behaviours rather than > > because it is "restless". For example, animals that need to > > perform more foraging behaviour usually show some form > > of stereotyped foraging behaviours and we can prevent > > these behaviours by providing them more opportunity to > > forage. The problem is the lack of foraging opportunity. > > Saying that an animal is bored, doesn't add anything. > > Yes, I have always found it useful to distinguish between boredom and > frustration. People used to say that tethered sows showed > because they were bored. It was Jeff who first > suggested that the main problem was that they were frustrated from > feeding and foraging - and we found supporting evidence for that in > Edinburgh. I think of frustration as applying to specific > motivations, like motivation for feeding, or sex, or nesting. > Sometimes when we say we are bored, we are actually frustrated ('I'd > rather be sailing'). One way to think of boredom is as the result of > a shortage of GENERAL stimulation, and the question then arises > whether animals that have all their specific motivations satisfied > WANT general stimulation. In the case of tethered sows, the answer > usually seems to be no: if you feed them well, they lie down most of > the time and it is very difficult to conclude that they are having > problems with life. > > Another way to look at it was suggested by Ian Duncan - that boredom > is frustration of exploration. Now exploration is often or usually > tied in with searching FOR something, like food, so the next question > is whether animals are motivated to explore (to seek general > stimulation?) when they have eaten enough and satisfied all specific > motivations. My guess is that most animals are not - the well-fed > pig or lion or cat doesn't spend much time exploring. Two major > exceptions would seem to be primates (including (some) humans - I > think watching television could come under the heading of exploration > here) and young animals - that need to learn about their environment. > > So I conclude that hens and pigs can't be bored (but maybe chicks and > piglets can). > > Someone who would disagree with this is Francoise Wemelsfelder, who > has written a lot on boredom in animals (and also on exploration). > As I understand her position, she thinks tethered sows ARE bored, but > that this is a stage that develops after a period of frustration, > rather than occurring at an early stage of the confinement. > > This all arose out of the discussion on zoos. I was intrigued by > Paul Carella's latest mail: > > > I doubt that we really teach our children respect for animals by > > exposing them to the cruel practice of confining a wild animal to a > > cage. There are many ways to help promote a healthy appreciation > > for animals and nature that do not involve caging free-spirited > > creatures. Actually, it may illustrate to children how little we > > respect animals. > > > > I visited the San Diego zoo about a year ago, and I was impressed by > > how much "enjoyment" the usually lethargic polar bears were having > > in their large pool with a big, floating rubber ball. > > My main point was that encounter with the animals themselves was what > matters most for children. OF COURSE it is better for them to be in > better conditions rather than worse. But there is an interesting > contrast between Paul's two paragraphs. In the first he talks about > the cruelty of confining a wild animal. In the second he describes a > situation in which - for at least the time he was watching them - the > animals did not seem to be suffering. They did not seem to be bored, > anyway! > > Mike > > > > Michael Appleby > > Dr M.C. Appleby > Director of Postgraduate Studies > Institute of Ecology and Resource Management > University of Edinburgh > Tel. +44 131 535 4098 > Fax. +44 131 667 2601 > Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk > or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" 13-SEP-1998 21:28:31.86 To: IN%"vetethic@utkvm1.utk.edu" CC: Subj: mail crash My apologies in advance for intruding on the list-- My computer has just decided to trash approximately 1000 email messages that I received between July 3 and September 11 of this year. If anyone sent me mail during that time and has not received an expected reply, please have patience with me and resend your post. Thanks very much! We now return you to your regularly scheduled list. Ione ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== A philosopher, one Bishop Berkeley, remarked, metaphysically, darkly, "Quite half that we see, cannot possibly be, and the rest's altogether unlikely". From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" 14-SEP-1998 02:40:04.27 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_qMAdb8hZLMr7pqKAblVtRg) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I have to agree with the other comments on the use of words such as = 'boredom' and 'dignity'. Boredom is a phenomenon that exists in human minds. No two people can = agree on what constitutes a cause for boredom and the outward = 'behaviours associated with boredom' could not be catalogued or compared = between species. Boredom is not a useful term. Dignity is an even worse term to use when deciding between zoos and = circuses. If it were possible to get an absolute measure of welfare, and = circus animals had better results on the 'welfare-o-meter' than zoo = animals then the circus wins every time, regardless of what people think = about it. It has been stated in a couple of posings that environmental enrichment = is a new phenomenon. I don't think this is true; although maybe less = progress has been made than people would want, there are still a lot of = people who have been trying to improve the lot of our captive species = for a long period. I am amazed that the old 'it's natural' argument still gets dragged up = as a justification for live-prey environmental enrichment. As I and = several others have said, what is natural? Is there any guarantee that = the behaviours we are unleashing are in any way natural?=20 Do we have any objective measure of the improvement in welfare from this = type of enrichment compared with any other? In Arlene's posting we got: "Bears and wolves need the stimulation of = catching prey because they miss the interaction with their natural = environment which some have never known". Where is the logic in that??? There is the serious risk of doing a lot more harm than good if we don't = examine what is being done in an objective manner. Just because = behaviours look normal to us and simulate what we think the animals = 'want' is not good enough justification. The idea of a bear or wolf hunting a rat for nine hours solid must = surely make one wonder about the motivation for the behaviour.=20 I cannot imagine a wild animal wasting this much time on such pitiful = prey. The wolves and bears must live in an exceptionally poor = environment. Finally, another issue related to live feeding. I think there is another motivation that humans expereince in wishing to = do this sort of thing.=20 We seem to measure the benefit to the captive animal in terms of the = degree of moral dilemma we encounter in providing the live prey for = them. The more angst that we feel, the closer what we are doing must come to = the animal's requirements and therefore the greater benefit to them.=20 Jon --Boundary_(ID_qMAdb8hZLMr7pqKAblVtRg) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I have to agree with the other = comments on the=20 use of words such as 'boredom' and 'dignity'.
 
Boredom is a phenomenon that exists = in human=20 minds. No two people can agree on what constitutes a cause for boredom = and the=20 outward 'behaviours associated with boredom' could not be catalogued or = compared=20 between species. Boredom is not a useful term.
 
Dignity is an even worse term to use = when=20 deciding between zoos and circuses. If it were possible to get an = absolute=20 measure of welfare, and circus animals had better results on the=20 'welfare-o-meter' than zoo animals then the circus wins every time, = regardless=20 of what people think about it.
 
It has been stated in a couple of = posings that=20 environmental enrichment is a new phenomenon. I don't think this is = true;=20 although maybe less progress has been made than people would want, there = are=20 still a lot of people who have been trying to improve the lot of our = captive=20 species for a long period.
 
I am amazed that the old 'it's = natural' argument=20 still gets dragged up as a justification for live-prey environmental = enrichment.=20 As I and several others have said, what is natural? Is there any = guarantee that=20 the behaviours we are unleashing are in any way natural?
Do we have any objective measure of = the=20 improvement in welfare from this type of enrichment compared with any=20 other?
In Arlene's posting we got: = "Bears and=20 wolves need the stimulation of catching prey because they miss the = interaction=20 with their natural environment which some have never known". Where = is the=20 logic in that???
There is the serious risk of doing a = lot more=20 harm than good if we don't examine what is being done in an objective = manner.=20 Just because behaviours look normal to us and simulate what we think the = animals=20 'want' is not good enough justification. 
 
The idea of a bear or wolf hunting a rat for nine = hours solid=20 must surely make one wonder about the motivation for the behaviour.=20
I cannot imagine a wild animal wasting this much = time on such=20 pitiful prey. The wolves and bears must live in an exceptionally poor=20 environment. 
 
Finally, another issue related to live = feeding.
I think there is another motivation that humans = expereince in=20 wishing to do this sort of thing.  
We seem to measure the benefit to the captive animal = in terms=20 of the degree of moral dilemma we encounter in providing the live prey = for=20 them. 
The more angst that we feel, the closer what we are = doing must=20 come to the animal's requirements and therefore the greater benefit to = them.=20
 
Jon
 
--Boundary_(ID_qMAdb8hZLMr7pqKAblVtRg)-- From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 14-SEP-1998 06:23:52.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: canine imprints HI all! A delayed contribution to the discussion of "dog imprinting". Dogs incorporate us into their world rather than imprinting on us. For example, many of the handling techniques we use (and the problems that develop when handling canines) are based on canine behaviour and not human behaviour. (Who is imprinting whom?) Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"info@canines.com" "Canines" 14-SEP-1998 17:08:55.11 To: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick", IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ethology list" Subj: RE: dogs "imprinting" on people I agree with Peggy that Masson's book was light on empirical data. His Ph.D. is in Sandscript. Sandscript? In any event, if by imprinting one means that the dogs will follow the first animal they see, similar to what Lorenz and Heinroth found, then yes they will "imprint." They will follow people at certain ages as Scott and Fuller found. But a neuropsychologist will argue this unscientific point. It is a well known fact in canine behavior that if a pup grows up with a human family and is obedience trained by them, his social behavior will tend to include humans rather than dogs. Although there are always exceptions. Imprinting was never duplicated under scientific conditions, to my knowledge. And isn't imprinting unselective and maladaptive? If imprinting is neurally wired, perhaps someone out there has a study the can point to. I too would like to see it. Robert L. DeFranco, Executive Director Animal Behavior Center of New York American Foundation for Animal Rescue, Inc. New York City http://www.canines.com -----Original Message----- From: peggy shunick To: Jeff Rushen Cc: ethology list Date: Thursday, September 10, 1998 2:38 PM Subject: Re: dogs "imprinting" on people >Jeff, > >Although I, like Arlene, do not believe imprinting is a good construct for >looking at canine socialization to humans, I found Masson's book limited on >hard data. > >> (or even if imprinting does occur in dogs!), or any articles >> that have systematically examined how dogs become >> socialized to people. I am aware of the old articles by Scott >> (1963). > >Are you aware that Scott and Fuller's Genetics and the social behavior of >the dog has recently been reprinted? > >I believe you are absolutely correct in saying that the literature is >lacking in this area. For what it's worth, I conducted a pilot study for my >MS that found tentative evidence for using a human developmental theory in >which to view young puppy behavior toward humans. > >Please keep me posted on results of your inquiry! >Peggy > From: IN%"desmith@picknowl.com.au" "desmith" 15-SEP-1998 00:34:40.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology net" CC: Subj: Aggression in desexed male dogs This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_4w8JSBzamJCS1Cv93AJ56A) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I have been asked the question as to whether I have known of any cases = of an increase in aggression after a male dog has been neutered. My = experience has been that if the dog has had the proper conditioning in = the critical period and providing hormone levels are normal very little = aggression is experienced in particular to its owners and only mild = hormonally stimulated dominance is shown to those not in the immediate = family. If a dog shows dominance aggression prior to neutering, = neutering alone does not solve the problem.=20 The point that was made was that there must have been some form of = positive reinforcement of any following dominant behaviour for it to = have increased. Dennis Smith Chandler Hill Pet Behaviour Clinic 190 Chandlers Hill Road=20 Happy Valley. =20 South Australia 5159 --Boundary_(ID_4w8JSBzamJCS1Cv93AJ56A) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I have been asked the question as to = whether I=20 have known of any cases of an increase in aggression after a male dog = has been=20 neutered. My experience has been that if the dog has had the proper = conditioning=20 in the critical period and providing hormone levels are normal very = little=20 aggression is experienced in particular to its owners and only mild = hormonally=20 stimulated dominance is shown to those not in the immediate family. If a = dog=20 shows dominance aggression prior to neutering, neutering alone does not = solve=20 the problem.
The point that was made was that there must have = been some=20 form of positive reinforcement of any following dominant behaviour for = it to=20 have increased.
 
 
Dennis Smith
Chandler Hill Pet Behaviour Clinic
190 Chandlers Hill Road
Happy Valley. 
South Australia   = 5159
--Boundary_(ID_4w8JSBzamJCS1Cv93AJ56A)-- From: IN%"ctb1@psu.edu" "C. Thomas Blair" 15-SEP-1998 09:25:01.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Animal Behaviour Programmes in Canada Inquiry To All: I am in a quandry and I was hoping to get some referrals from the listserv. I am currently a returning adult part-time student attempting to earn my B.S. in Biopsychology at Penn State. I have been trying to research other programmes in animal behaviour (or opportunities to pursue companion animal behavioural research if the school does not specifically have a department/programme specifically in ethology) in the United States where the school also has domestic partner benefits. I have a few possibilities but I wanted to continue my research across the canadian border. I'm not having much luck. Does anyone on the listserv know of any colleges, institutes, or universities which would meet the criteria I have listed above? Even if you don't know the status of their domestic partner benefits, if you could point me in the direction of opportunities to study/engage in animal behavioural or, even better, companion animal behavioural research in Canada I would appreciate it. Thanks! P.S. I am trying to get a graduate degree in behaviour going the psychology route...have considered all veterinary routes already...thanks again!! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ C. Thomas Blair, Jr. Office of the Vice Provost for Information Technology Computer & Information Systems The Pennsylvania State University Email: ctb1@psu.edu Web Page URL: http://www.personal.psu.edu/ctb1 ------------------------------------------------------------------------ From: IN%"ragtuswa@eden.rutgers.edu" "the little zoo keeper" 15-SEP-1998 12:39:59.90 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: graduate study To all, I'm currently finishing my last year at Cook - Rutgers University in New Jersey and am interested in finding a graduate program that has a close association with a zoological park and/or wildlife center where I could pursue a masters in Animal Behavior. I have a particular interest in stress, its causes, and methods to reduce it in exotic species, specifically those found in zoos. This past summer I had a research internship at the St. Louis Zoo in St. Louis, Missouri where graduate students from nearby Missouri State U and Saint Louis U could perform their research at the zoo. If anyone knows of a program such as this or knows of a resource which could help me, I'd be very appreciative. My thanks in advance, Michael J. Toscano (732) 448-0004 ragtuswa@eden.rutgers.edu 7B Seaman Street New Brunswick, NJ 08903 From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 15-SEP-1998 13:35:22.48 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'", IN%"iduncan@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "IAN DUNCAN" CC: Subj: RE: Reply : Food/Motivation/survival. In response to all those who asked for more details regarding Food/Motivation/Survival, we are pleased to pass on the following information. My (GA) findings are recorded in a paper delivered at the First International Conference on Veterinary Behavioural Medicine held in Birmingham, April 1-2, 1997. This paper is published in the Proceedings thereof : Anderson, G. and Marinier, S. The effect of food and restricted exercise on behavioural problems in dogs. p. 183. My motivation in writing this paper was to share my findings with other behaviour consultants, since I believed that my approach, although possibly radical, could be useful to others in the field treating problems. The findings were based on a common symptom I noticed running through the vast majority of cases I attended. This symptom always indicated an ingestion need. By trial and error, it became evident that food adjustment produced positive results. Controversially, I also discovered that keeping the animal quiet (as opposed to physically stimulating or exercising it) during treatment accelerated these positive results. My research led me to a paper : Hughes, B.O. and Duncan, I.J.H., 1988. The notion of ethological "need", models of motivation and animal welfare. Anim. Behav., 36: 1696-1707. This paper supported my findings perfectly. My interpretation was that if the animal was unable to rest, it would perform a variety of deviant behaviours which would be seen as problem behaviour. We (GA and IJHD) have been corresponding and agree that this topic is well worthy of further study. We are planning some collaborative experiments at the moment which should help to elucidate this phenomenon. We would be very pleased to exchange further ideas if anyone is interested. Glynne Anderson & Ian J.H. Duncan ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Glynne Anderson Canine Academy 32 Hospital Rd., Hillcrest, 3610, KwaZulu Natal, South Africa. e-mail k9acad@iafrica.com www: http://users.iafrica.com/k/k9/k9acad & Ian J.H. Duncan, Col. K.L. Campbell Centre for the Study of Animal Welfare, University of Guelph, Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada E-mail: iduncan@aps.uoguelph.ca ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"zanella@pilot.msu.edu" "Dr. Adroaldo J. Zanella" 15-SEP-1998 13:44:47.31 To: IN%"ETHOLOGY@SEGATE.SUNET.SE", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Position available The Department of Animal Science,=20 Animal Behavior Group, Michigan State University, East Lansing, =20 is seeking applicants for the following poisition: Research Assistant I (Grade 11) $29,701 Minimum REQUIRED: bachelor's degree in animal behavior, zoology, animal science, psychology, veterinary medicine or closely related field; one year of related and progressively more responsible or expansive work experience in any or all of the following experimental methodologies: behavioral observation techniques (check-sheets, behavior software, video-recording), questionnaire development, data analysis using statistical software (SAS or SPSS), analysis of compounds in biological fluids from different animal species using HPLC (high pressure liquid chromatography) and immunoassays (RIA and ELISA), cell culture (especially neural tissue), histological procedures (immunohistochemistry, autoradiography, in-situ hybridization), and molecular biological techniques (Western blot, Northern blot, RNA isolation); or an equivalent combination of education and experience.=20 DESIRED: master's degree or Ph.D. BASIC FUNCTION: The sucessful applicant will be involved in general organization of=20 the animal behavioral laboratory. Activities will include: training=20 undergraduate and=20 graduate students in the above mentioned techniques; assisting program supervisor with=20 graduate and undergraduate courses; ordering equipment, supplies, and reagents. In addition=20 the applicant will conduct independent research focused primarily on=20 discovery and validation of behavioral and physiological indicators to monitor animal stress and welfare; the main emphasis of the program will be on farm animals, but some experiments may involve companion, zoo, and laboratory animals. Closing Date: October 9/98 =46or application questions call (517)-432-1662; refer to posting P80581 Employment 110 Nisbet Building Michigan State University East Lansing, MI 48824 =46or further information: call/email: A.J.Zanella=20 Phone: (517) 432-4134;=20 email: zanella@pilot.msu.edu http://www.msu.edu/ http://www.msu.edu/unit/ans/ MSU is an affirmative action/equal opportunity institution Dr. Adroaldo Jos=E9 Zanella Assistant Professor Ethology and Environmental Physiology Department of Animal Science Michigan State University Anthony Hall,=20 East Lansing , MI 48824 =46ax: (517) 353 1699 Phone: (517) 432 4134 From: IN%"aarmenta@panam1.panam.edu" 15-SEP-1998 15:21:23.34 To: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Reply : Food/Motivation/survival. Glynne, so what you are saying is if the animal is over-active, then the deviant behaviors occur? Does this only apply to dogs or have you studied this in other animals? Which ones imparticular? Keep me updated on your research. I find your predictions very interesting. I am currently doing a paper on Enrichment Activities for Captive Animals-Mammals and would like your input. Do the dogs you train ever get frustrated - I mean, If you are training them, they show their interest in learning a particular skill, and are unable to perform or complete the task, do they seem to become unmotivated? What are your thoughts On Tue, 15 Sep 1998, Glynne Anderson wrote: > > In response to all those who asked for more details regarding > Food/Motivation/Survival, we are pleased to pass on the following > information. > > My (GA) findings are recorded in a paper delivered at the First > International Conference on Veterinary Behavioural Medicine held in > Birmingham, April 1-2, 1997. This paper is published in the > Proceedings thereof : > Anderson, G. and Marinier, S. The effect of food and restricted > exercise on behavioural problems in dogs. p. 183. > > My motivation in writing this paper was to share my findings with > other behaviour consultants, since I believed that my approach, > although possibly radical, could be useful to others in the field > treating problems. > > The findings were based on a common symptom I noticed running through > the vast majority of cases I attended. This symptom always indicated > an ingestion need. By trial and error, it became evident that food > adjustment produced positive results. Controversially, I also > discovered that keeping the animal quiet (as opposed to physically > stimulating or exercising it) during treatment accelerated these > positive results. > > My research led me to a paper : > Hughes, B.O. and Duncan, I.J.H., 1988. The notion of ethological > "need", models of motivation and animal welfare. Anim. Behav., 36: > 1696-1707. > This paper supported my findings perfectly. My interpretation was > that if the animal was unable to rest, it would perform a variety of > deviant behaviours which would be seen as problem behaviour. > > We (GA and IJHD) have been corresponding and agree that this topic is > well worthy of further study. We are planning some collaborative > experiments at the moment which should help to elucidate this > phenomenon. We would be very pleased to exchange further ideas if > anyone is interested. > > Glynne Anderson & Ian J.H. Duncan > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Glynne Anderson > Canine Academy > 32 Hospital Rd., Hillcrest, 3610, > KwaZulu Natal, South Africa. > e-mail k9acad@iafrica.com > www: http://users.iafrica.com/k/k9/k9acad > & > Ian J.H. Duncan, > Col. K.L. Campbell Centre for the Study of Animal Welfare, > University of Guelph, > Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada > E-mail: iduncan@aps.uoguelph.ca > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 15-SEP-1998 19:31:01.30 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Canine Rage Syndrome Some months back I believe there was a discussion on this list concerning Springer Spaniel Rage and "rage syndrome" in dogs. Some mention was made concerning rage syndrome being connected to the gene that carries the red coat color. If I remember correctly there was some conjecture about this and I don't think sources were referenced, but can not remember. I have recently asked if there are any existing references concerning a possible link between the red coat color and rage syndrome. Can anyone provide references on that subject? Thank you, Kathy Hughes