From: IN%"Lene.J.Pedersen@ihh.kvl.dk" "Lene Juul Pedersen" 4-SEP-1996 05:28:12.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: introduction- Lene J. Pedersen Hello everyone ! I have recently joined the ISAE network and would like to introduce myself. I became a PhD in 1994 on the subject of stress and reproduction in swine. My PhD work indicated among other things that the apperance of oestrus behaviour was easily influenced by the social environment of the pigs such as by their relations and experiences of humans and conspecifics. I have therefore continued this work in a post doc position at the Royal Veterinary- and Agricultural University, Division of Ethology and Health in Copenhagen, Denmark. The project is concerned with fear of humans and fear of conspecifics and its consequences on reproduction. The major questions I would like answers to through the project is - to what extent and through which mechanisms are oestrus behaviour and oestrus physiology affected by aggression and dominance position of group housed sows ? - to what extent and through which mechanisms does fear og humans affect oestrus behaviour and oestrus physiology in sows ? - can we avoid development of fear of humans and fear of conspecifics in the maturing animals by exposing the young pigs to prober handling and housing procedures ? In addition, I am involved in a large Danish project concerned with development of group housing systems for lactating sows. My part has been to look at differences between varying housing systems in sows#preventive behaviour of crushing piglets and in the development in teat fidelity and nursing frequencies over 4 lactation weeks. This work has been finished and are about to be written to a paper. If anyone have comments, ideas or share fields of interest to the above I would be pleased to here from you ! Yours sincerely Lene J. Pedersen The Royal Veterinary- and Agricultural University, Division of Ethology and Health B#lowsvej 13, DK-1870 Frederiksberg C Denmark From: IN%"maria.amaral@brasil.net" "Maria Amaral" 4-SEP-1996 20:00:15.61 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: I would like what they mean exactaly in english these words for dog ' s behavior : bark / growl / snarl bit / bare / snap threat hissing / hiss patting lifting Thanks Maria Thereza ... Save the whales (and veterinarians...) --- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Brazilian-InterNet Network or simply brasil.net * Provider * jorge@brasil.net =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: IN%"amansour@play.psych.mun.ca" "Atef Mansour" 5-SEP-1996 07:07:09.64 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introducing myself and asking help Hello everyone, I have recently joined the ISAE network and would like to introduce myself. I am Atef A.H. Mansour, graduated as a veterinarian in 1984. Then, I had a Master, 1988, and a Ph.D., 1994, in the area of Animal Behaviour and Management. My Master work was to study the effects of age and group size on the maintenance behaviour of Pekin ducklings and its relation to their growth rate. Moreover, my Ph.D. research work was to study the maintenance behaviour of some zoo ungulates, (namely, Barbary sheep, Sommering's gazelle, moose and caribou), in conditions of captivity. The effects of environmental and/or social factors on such behaviours as well as the observed abnormal behaviours were assessed. During 1995, I was working on a research project to study the role of Locus Coeruleus-norepinephrine function on curiosity and open field behaviour in the rat. Nowadays, I am looking for a suitable postdoctoral research position. My research interest is to work in a project that may answer one or more of the following questions or in a related field: 1- Is the development of the animal's abnormal behaviour accompanied by the physiological indices of stress?. 2- What are the neural changes that accompany the occurrence of abnormal behaviour? 3- Can learning certain tasks be used to reduce or even eliminate the occurrence of abnormal behaviours and how does this affect the neural mechanisms of such recovered animal? 4- What is the main maintenance activity of the animal that can be used as an indicator of its welfare (diagnostic purpose)? 5- What are the environmental and/or social factors that have a detrimental effect on the reproductive capacity of the endangered species? It is important to mention that my main concern is to investigate the theory behind these questions regardless the species studied. However, a study about the role of central serotonergic function in different types of canine aggression is of some interest to me these days. I hope that somebody can help me in my search for such a postdoc. I will appreciate his/her concern. With my best wishes, Sincerely, Atef Mansour From: IN%"herrmann@wiz.uni-kassel.de" 5-SEP-1996 14:28:00.90 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: personal indrotuction Dear All, I was in the ethology network for a couple of month. To be honest some of the discussions I=B4ve found really great. For some unknown reasons I was= sent of. I=B4ll promise You to be a brave boy now. Therefore I=B4ll introduce myself= first. I have to appologize for my English first. In the moment I am working at the University of Kassel, Faculty of Agriculture etc. in Witzenhausen - literally translated Joketown. It is in fact the smallest University town in Germany, some people say even the nicest - no comment. I am very busy in the moment with my Phd-thesis. It=B4s the final stage,= some of You might be aware of the troube checking literature, spelling and other unimportant stuff. So whats the story about. About cows of course. Fascinating animals suffering from underepresentation in the wide field of AE. One reason might be that with an limited amount of funding You can keep lets thay 72 hens, 18 pigs and how many cows. What does it mean? lets forget about statistics. Anyhow I like cows - other beasts as well - and I work with them.=20 My project deals with the relation between physical properties of the floor, behaviour of the cows and claws health or hoof health as some North Americans would say. It was entirely "On farm research" and in my understanding applied work. It meets my obligations as a scientist.=20 What I=B4ve done before, I ve studied agriculture - in Joketown of course - with some specialization in welfare measurement under farm conditions in cows. After this I had the great chance to make my MSc in Applied Animal Behaviour and Welfare at Edinburgh University dealing with red deer in my thesis. Looking back it was worth going there.=20 This was the past, what=B4s about the future. As You are probably aware a Phd-thesis is not enough to fill your life. So I have a consulting agency. Our main subjects are the development of housing systems for cows and horses. We follow a more holistic approach, taking the animal, the farmer and the environment into account. One specialisation is in the field of hoof and claw-care or -triming, but as I said holistic with moral obligations. I hope to meet You soon on the Net, You are welcome Sincerely Yours Hannes P.S. Publish or Parish is not the only truth=20 From: IN%"robitail@NICKEL.LAURENTIAN.CA" 6-SEP-1996 12:45:00.27 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: MAMMAL TRAPPING SYMPOSIUM I send this message on behalf of Dr. Gilbert Proulx. JFR _______________________________________________________________________________ > >** Message from: IN%"alpha@mailx.Xpress.ab.ca" ** > > > Alpha Wildlife Research & Management Ltd. > invites all scientists and organizations to attend a unique > MAMMAL TRAPPING SYMPOSIUM > in Edmonton, Alberta, Canada in August 1997. > > *************** >Reviews and original research papers in English on the following >subjects will be considered for inclusion (paper sessions and >posters) in the symposium: > >I - MAMMAL TRAPPING: IMPORTANCE AND CONCERNS > >This session aims to review the importance, and the pros and cons, of >trapping according to the following aspects: > - Historical (archeological findings, evolution of > trapping throughout time, etc..) > - Economic (fur, pest control, trap production, > subsistence, individual and national incomes, etc..) > - Socio-cultural (lifestyles, recreation, etc..) > - Animal Welfare (ethics, conservation > philosophies..) > - Biological (role of trapping in wildlife population > and habitat management programs, human and animal health >issues, > predator and pest control, translocation projects, >survival of > endangered species, research, etc..) > >II - TRAPPING TECHNOLOGY: SCIENTIFIC FACTS AND > FUTURE DIRECTION > >This session aims to update the public and scientific community about >state-of-the-art trapping technology (killing and restraining traps, >snares, nets, etc..), and identify guidelines to select adequate >trapping devices. This session will include, but will not be limited >to, the following subjects: > > - World trap inventory (trap types, sizes, and > features allowed in countries around the world) > - Humaneness (trap research and development - > evaluation of injuries - physiological, endocrine, >biochemical and > behavioral changes related to trapping - trap selection >guidelines. > - Efficiency and Selectivity (assessment of trapping > devices and their sets according to species or group of >species - > conciliating efficiency with humaneness and selectivity >- baits, > scents and pheromones used to improve efficiency and >selectivity). > >III - TRAPLINE MANAGEMENT AND DATA ANALYSES > >This session aims to review: > > - Trapline designs (e.g. grid, transects, random > sampling, number of traps and trapnights, single >census, multiple > census, etc..). > - Management Practices (quotas, seasons, visitation > rates, sanctuaries adjacent to traplines, regulations, etc..) > - Data Analyses (statistics and software used to > analyse trapping data, in research and wildlife >management programs). > >This symposium is not restricted to small mammals and furbearers. It >also includes big game and marine species. > > ***************** >Contributors are invited to submit 3 hard copies of an abstract >(typed, single spaced within a 18 cm x 18 cm box) before November 15, >1996. Notice of acceptance will be sent by November 30, 1996. >Refereed proceedings will be published (there will be a minimum page >charge). Registration fees are $ 275 CAN (including proceedings; >excluding accomodation and meals). Submit abstracts and special >requests to: >Dr. Gilbert Proulx, Alpha Wildlife Research & Management Ltd., 9 Garnet >Crescent, Sherwood Park, ALberta, Canada T8A 2R7 >Tel: 403-464-5228 >Fax: 403-417-0255 >E-mail: ALPHA@XPRESS.AB.CA > >[if you do not intend to give a paper but wish to attend the >symposium, please let us know so we may add your name to our mailing >list] >PLEASE POST OR SEND TO OTHERS WHO MAY BE INTERESTED. > _________________________________________________________________________ Jean-Francois Robitaille Tel.: (705) 675-1151 ext. 2294 Department of Biology Fax: (705) 675-4859 Laurentian University E-mail:robitail@nickel.laurentian.ca Sudbury, Ontario CANADA P3E 2C6 From: IN%"lafama@pinos.com" 8-SEP-1996 19:20:08.81 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: bad behaivour in sport horses I'm plannning to write a paper on the behaviour of sports horses. For this goal I need to know if there is something already writen about it, where was it published. On the other hand, I would like to find addresses of vets, psychiatrists or biologists who may have studied this subject if possible about horses; otherwise it may be useful for me studies on any other species, even humnan beings. I am interested in reeding about ethology in horses I am interested in bad behaviours in horses resulting from badly treated animals either while being bred or while being trained and what kind of treatments are applied in order to revert this bad behaviour lafama@pinos.com From: IN%"J.Eddison@plymouth.ac.uk" "J Eddison" 10-SEP-1996 02:16:29.47 CC: Subj: RE: Listserver Help File This is very useful information. Thanks. I shall put it into the forthcoming ISAE Newsletter to give it extra emphasis. John Eddison ISAE Communications Officer From: IN%"K.PLAXTON@elsevier.nl" "Ken Plaxton" 11-SEP-1996 03:12:50.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Applied Animal Behaviour Science Dear Subscriber, Please find below the Content List for Vols. 49/3, 49/4 and 50/1 of the above-mentioned journal. Regards, ********************************** Ken Plaxton Elsevier Science B.V. Animal/Veterinary Sciences Section P.O. Box 181 1000 AD Amsterdam Tel: +31 20 485 3332 Fax: +31 20 485 3325 E.Mail: k.plaxton@elsevier.nl ********************************** APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENCE VOL 49/3 1 SEPTEMBER 1996 Contents Dietary flavor modifies oil preferences in the chicken R.T. Mabayo, J.-i. Okumura and M. Furuse (Nagoya, Japan) . . . 213 Weaning in dogs: within- and between-litter variation in milk and solid food intake K. Malm and P. Jensen (S-532 24 Skara, Sweden) . . . 223 Dustbathing and pecking behaviour in chicks from a high and a low feather pecking line of laying hens P.F. Johnsen and K.S. Vestergaard (Copenhagen, Denmark). . . . 237 The influence of human posture and movement on the approach and escape behaviour of weanling pigs A. Miura (Sagamihara, Japan), H. Tanida (Higashi-Hiroshima, Japan), T. Tanaka and T. Yoshimoto (Sagamihara, Japan) . . . 247 Scent identification lineups by dogs (Canis familiaris): experimental design and forensic application G.A.A. Schoon (Leiden, Netherlands). . . . . . . 257 Behavioural effects of separating the dairy calf immediately or 4 days post-partum L.M. Lidfors (S-532 24, Skara, Sweden) . . . . . 269 Influence of size and asymmetry of sexual characters in the rooster and hen on the number of eggs laid B. Forkman and S. Corr. (Midlothian, EH25 9PS, UK) . . . .285 Comparison of the behaviour of captive white-faced capuchin monkeys (Cebus capucinus) in the presence of four kinds of deep litter E. Ludes and J.R. Anderson (Strasbourg, France). . . 293 Differences in home range and habitat use among individuals in a cattle herd L.D. Howery, F.D. Provenza, R.E. Banner and C.B. Scott (Logan, UT 84322-5230, USA) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 305 * * * * * * * * * * * APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENCE VOL 49/4 1 SEPTEMBER 1996 Contents Behavioural comparison of layer and broiler fowl: measuring fear responses S. Keer-Keer, B.O. Hughes, P.M. Hocking and R.B. Jones (Roslin EH25 9PS, UK). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 321 Behavioural observations of puppies undergoing tail docking G.J. Noonan, J.S. Rand (St Lucia, Qld, Australia), J.K. Blackshaw (St Lucia, Australia) and J. Priest (St. Lucia Qld. 4072, Australia) . . . . 335 The sexual motivation of boars housed adjacent to ovariectomised gilts did not affect the efficiency of detecting hormonally induced oestrus using the back pressure test A.I. Turner (Clayton 3168, VIC, Australia), P.H. Hemsworth (Werribee 3030, VIC, Australia) and A.J. Tilbrook (Clayton 3168, VIC, Australia). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 343 Non-lethal mouse repellents: evaluation of cinnamamide as a repellent against commensal and field rodents J.E. Gurney, R.W. Watkins (Slough SL1 7HJ, UK), E.L. Gill (Worplesdon GU3 3LQ, UK) and D.P. Cowan (Slough SL1 7HJ, UK) . . . .353 The effects of high and low rates of food reinforcement on the behaviour of pigs R.J. Young and A.B. Lawrence (Penicuik, EH26 0QE, UK). . . . . 365 The pre-farrowing behaviour of sows with access to straw and space for locomotion M.J. Haskell and G.D. Hutson (Parkville, Vic. 3052, Australia) . . .375 A study of the relative aversiveness of a new daily injection procedure for pigs P.H. Hemsworth, J.L. Barnett (Attwood, Vic. 3049, Australia) and R.G. Campbell (Corowa, 2646, NSW, Australia) . . . . 389 An analysis of regurgitation and reingestion in captive chimpanzees K.C. Baker (Atlanta GA 30322, USA) and S.P. Easley (Alamogordo NM 88310, USA) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . 403 The preference of pigs for fresh air over ammoniated air J.H. Smith, C.M. Wathes (Bedford MK45 4HS, UK) and B.A. Baldwin (Cambridge CB2 4AT, UK). . . . . . . . . 417 * * * * * * * * * * * APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENCE VOL 50/1 1 OCTOBER 1996 Contents Observations on behaviour and skin damage of slaughter pigs and treatment during lairage N.A. Geverink (Lelystad, The Netherlands), B. Engel (Wageningen, The Netherlands), E. Lambooij (Lelystad, The Netherlands) and V.M. Wiegant (Wageningen, The Netherlands). . . . . . . 1 The use of a second-order schedule to measure feeding motivation in the pig J.E.L. Day, I. Kyriazakis and A.B. Lawrence (Edinburgh, UK). . . . . 15 Vocal individuality during suckling in the intensively housed domestic pig J.K. Blackshaw (St. Lucia, Qld. 4072, Australia), D.N. Jones (Nathan, Qld. 4111, Australia) and F.J. Thomas (St. Lucia, Qld. 4072, Australia) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .33 Behavioural responses of domestic pigs and cattle to humans and novel stimuli P.H. Hemsworth (Attwood, Victoria), E.O. Price and R. Borgwardt (Davis, CA 95616-8521, USA). . . . . . . . . . . .43 Sexual activities and oestrus detection in lactating Holstein cows J.H.V. Vliet and F.J.C.M.V. Eerdenburg (Utrecht, The Netherlands) . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .57 Conditioned approach-avoidance responses to humans: the ability of pigs to associate feeding and aversive social experiences in the presence of humans with humans P.H. Hemsworth (Attwood, Australia), J. Verge (Dookie, Australia) and G.J. Coleman (Bundoora, Australia) . . . . . .71 Effect of source and lairage on some behavioural and biochemical measurements of feed restriction and dehydration in cattle at a slaughterhouse A.M. Jarvis (Roslin, Midlothian EH25 9RG, UK), D.W.J. Harrington (Edinburgh EH9 3JT, UK) and M.S. Cockram (Roslin, Midlothian EH25 9RG, UK). . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .83 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 11-SEP-1996 15:27:06.70 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"stookey@sask.usask.ca" Subj: how much milk does a beef cow make? Does anyone have any idea of how much milk a beef cow gives either during a nursing or during a day? Any references? Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"Emily.Patterson-Kane@vuw.ac.nz" 11-SEP-1996 15:44:47.36 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE could some-one please tell me how to become a member of ISAE? emily.patterson-kane From: IN%"maria.amaral@brasil.net" "Maria Amaral" 11-SEP-1996 23:30:31.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: What are ecology , ethology and behavior ? And what are differece among they ? ( for canids ) Thanks Maria Thereza Amaral --- Blue Wave/386 v2.20 =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Brazilian-InterNet Network or simply brasil.net * Provider * jorge@brasil.net =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= From: IN%"William_R_STRICKLIN@umail.umd.edu" 12-SEP-1996 08:28:13.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: how much milk does a beef cow make? Jeff, there is a "weigh-suckle-weigh" technique commonly used to estimate milk production of beef cows (weigh the calf before and after suckling). There are some older studies that actually involved milkling cows in the same manner dairy cows are milked. Also, relative milk production can (and is) estimated from the weaning weight of the calf. Most of the standard beef production text books should give info on these procedures. I am out of the office until next week and can't easily give you ref but can next week if you still need detail. Regards, Ray. From: IN%"NHawekotte@aol.com" 14-SEP-1996 15:43:45.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Stunning of cattle by bolt shot Sorry this is such a late response to your query. Try the web site of Temple Grandin; I lost my addresses so you will have to do a search. From what I have heard, she would probably be happy to communicate with you through email as well.. Dr. (?) Grandin is a specialist in developing humane slaughter mechanisms for hoof stock, and her web site and her book, Thinking in Pictures, are very interesting. Even for a vegetarian! Hope this helps. Nancy Hawekotte Wildlife Rescue Team, Nebraska USA From: IN%"p1008@cis.co.za" 16-SEP-1996 00:13:42.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Philip Stewart This is a short introduction to about myself. I have worked in nature conservation for the past 19 years, in Namibia, Etosha National Park and the Namib Desert. In South Africa, mainly in the Cape, and am presently in Mpumalanga with the Dept: Environmental Affairs. I hope to start my studies towards a maters in technology next year, in the ecological implications of fragmentation of cloud forests. (This study will be looking at the hydrology as well). My main interests are coastal ecology, however being in Mpumalanga, I am a bit far from the sea. Philip Stewart From: IN%"Henrik.B.Simonsen@ihh.kvl.dk" "Henrik B Simonsen" 16-SEP-1996 04:59:22.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle and fire Dear All. An insurance company has asked me how cattle react in case of fire. Fire broke out in a dairy loose house deep litter system. The main questions are: Are cows afraid of the fire and therefore run away from it or is it possible that they will move according to their normal movements within the house even if they have to walk rather close to the fire. If anybody have information it will certainly be highly appreciated. Best regards from Henrik B. Simonsen Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University Division of Ethology and Health Bulowsvej 13 DK-1870 Frederiksberg C Copenhagen Denmark Phone +45 35 28 30 14 Fax +45 35 28 30 22 E-mail hbs@kvl.dk From: IN%"fender@vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu" "Marilyn J. Fender" 16-SEP-1996 09:14:43.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new member Greetings This is to introduce myself. I'm not entirely sure the list is appropriate for me. However, I found it on the WWW and decided to join for a while and find out whether it was a match with my interests. Here is a little about me. Professor (PhD) Special Education University of Wisconsin at Oshkosh Have been in this position for 17 years; Was department chair for five years; Going on sabbatical Spring Semester Specialization Areas: learning disabilities instructional strategies assessment of learning problems curriculum development and a few other misc areas Philosophy of department is based on applied behavior analysis and a body of research that is generally referred to as effective learning strategies and/or direct instruction. Hobby: Competitive field trial retrieving. Have a field champion and also dogs with obedience and hunt test titles. Spend all of my free time training and handling dogs. Have 55 acres with specially designed training ponds. My mentor is considered the top dog trainer on the continent by most people knowledgeable about dog training. We do use the electric collar as a reinforcement (not punishment tool). If used correctly, it is only a tool like other tools such as leashes and praise. If you are not familiar with field trial competition: The dogs have to exhibit extraordinary skills at long distances (2-400 yards on land or in water or a combination of the two with factors such as cover and hills) in complex situations requiring decision making as well as incredible memories. Additionally they have to move from using their instincts to having a controlled relationship with their handler in varying task demands. It is so difficult that only approximately 55 dogs a year (out of thousands of entries) can manage to earn the title of retriever field champion in AKC standards. Fit to list:?? I have used the effective learning strategies and ABA and published articles on how a research based foundation of principles will enhance the effectiveness of results in dog training. For instance, I have written about the importance of the ABA concept of chaining events to teach and maintain behaviors with dogs in challenging situations. Conversely, I feel my work with dogs has clarified to me the principles that are effective in educating a student with learning problems. It is a two way street for me. Summary: Since I have just joined...and the messages have been few, I don't know whether my interests fit those of the folks on the list. Will look forward to seeing. Marilyn J. Fender, PhD From: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" 16-SEP-1996 10:17:41.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: shock collars I would much appreciate some clarification concerning Marilyn Fender's use of electric shock collars as 'reinforcement' in dog training. ___________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________ James A. Serpell Marie A. Moore Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, School of Veterinary Medicine, Dept. of Clinical Studies, University of Pennsylvania, 3850 Spruce Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010. USA From: IN%"arivera@moose.uvm.edu" "Allison" 16-SEP-1996 11:08:39.05 To: IN%"p1008@cis.co.za" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Introduction Philip Stewart Hi! It's very nice to hear about what you have done and where you've been. I just returned from a four 1/2 month study abroad semester in Botswana, Africa. I studied Conservation, Ecology, and general Biology over there. I did a behavioral study on the Chacma Baboons. I'd write the scientific name, but I can't underline or italicize. I spent time in the Kalahari, Okavango Delta, Chobe River region...and a bit in Zimbabwe. I'm interested in hearing about your work further. By the way, my name is Allison Rivera. I'm a senior undergraduate student at the University of Vermont. Allison From: IN%"csmuir@es.co.nz" 17-SEP-1996 00:08:28.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hi everyone - Min Hi, I'm Min, I haven't written to any of these mailing lists, before. I am starting a degree in Zoology and I am presently in my first year at Otago University in New Zealand, I am 25 years ond and I am facinated by anything to do with Ecology, Animals, and Nature in general. I was reading this letter from Philip Stewart and I was wondering what a cloud forest is? If this is an ignorant question, please excuse me, I am still very much learning. I look forward to a reply. >I hope to start my studies towards a maters in technology next year, in the ecological implications of fragmentation of cloud forests. (This study will be looking at the hydrology as well). Thankyou, Min Craig and Min Sutherland-Muir || Proud Member of csmuir@es.co.nz || The HTML Writers Guild :{) ____________________________________________ ABSENCE OF EVIDENCE IS NOT NECESSARILY EVIDENCE OF ABSENCE ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: IN%"Nabil.Brandl%Foulum%Husdyr1@sh1.sh.dk" 17-SEP-1996 01:09:22.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle and fire It is common that horses, dogs and cats have the ability to predict the dangerous of catastrofic weather. It is also common that cattle and pigs are sensitive to climatic temperature. A healthy cattle with no legs problems, it will react against fire. I hope this will help. Best regards and keep in touch Nabil Brandl The Danish Institute of Animal Science Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Research Center Foulum e-mail: Nabil Brandl@sh.dk HomePage: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil From: IN%"peter.penning@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Peter Penning" 17-SEP-1996 02:39:28.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Shock collars for dogs I refer to James Serpell's posting. I would like him to expand on what is meant by 'Marilyn Fender's use of electric shock collars.' I have not seen a general posting about this. Is this something I have missed? Peter Penning IGER North Wyke E-Mail Peter.Penning@bbsrc.ac.uk From: IN%"schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl" 17-SEP-1996 04:46:15.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: shock collars >Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:10:22 +0000 >From: serpell@pobox.upenn.edu (James Serpell) >Subject: shock collars >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > >I would much appreciate some clarification concerning Marilyn Fender's use >of electric shock collars as 'reinforcement' in dog training. > >___________________________________________________________________ >___________________________________________________________________ > >James A. Serpell >Marie A. Moore Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, >School of Veterinary Medicine, >Dept. of Clinical Studies, >University of Pennsylvania, >3850 Spruce Street, >Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010. >USA > Dear James, Tha manifacturers of Tritronic schok collars have produced an instruction video-tape, which shows how indeed he shock collar may be (!) used as a negative reinforcer. They show, for example, a dog being trained to the heel command (without use of the shock collar. Subsequently, the dog gets the collar on and if he lags behind after having received the "heel" command, he will get mild continuous shocks until he speeds up and walks with its head close to the handler's heel. Then, the electric stimulation is terminated. This indeed functions as a negative reinforcement. The Tritronic shock collar produces a series of very short shocks, that are turned off automatically after 10 secs, (this is a safety measure). The level of the shocks may be adjusted in 15 steps. Often, however, the collar is being used as a punisher. It is notheworthy, that the end of any pretty forcefull punishment may induce "relief", which is a positive feeling. This relief may function as a reinforcer for ending some behaviour, or for the behaviour the animal shows when the punishment stops. In this way the collar is often being used to train the "let go" command in training police dogs, at least in Holland. The dog may receive a (severe) electrical stimulation when not obeing this command, and is automatically rewarded when the handler stops shocking after the dog has let go of the "criminal", again by negative reinforcement. I would like to ad that this partly "positive" explanation of the use of the shock collar does not imply that I recommend the use of it. dr Matthijs Schilder Ethology and socio-ecology Utrecht University Netherlands From: IN%"NWARAN@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Natalie Waran" 17-SEP-1996 06:16:18.06 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (Fwd) Other shocking devices ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date: Tue, 17 Sep 1996 13:09:21 +0000 From: Natalie Waran Subject: Other shocking devices To: "To:applied-ethology"@sask.usask.ca Organization: Edinburgh University Priority: normal Re: Shock collars and other shocking devices I have not seen the shock collar used, but another product perhaps by the same company incorporates a collar with a box attached, which emits a shock (the power of which can be controlled) but also emits a buzzing sound. The aim of the device is to control the area the dog has access to and to prevent them from straying. The owner is issued with a length of wire which is laid in a circuit. The dog wears the collar whilst inside the area enclosed by the wire. If the dog approaches the wire he/she will hear a buzzing which if ignored will result in a shock. If the dog removes itself from the area of the wire, the buzzing stops and there is no shock. I have seen this used very effectively. It does not take long for the dog to learn its boundaries, and it enables owners to leave their dogs outside in the garden without worrying about them wandering. The dog has control over the 'reinforcer', it can move away when cued by the buzzing sound, and can learn to avoid the area. Natalie Waran Edinburgh University From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 17-SEP-1996 06:18:53.95 To: IN%"apbc4_um@earth.ftech.co.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hyperactivity in dogs. Does anyone have any references on the following:- 1. Curing hyperactivity in dogs. 2. The effect food has on the behaviour of dogs. I thank you in anticipation. GLYNNE ANDERSON E-mail= k9acad@iafrica 32 Hospital Rd. Hillcrest 3610 KwaZulu Natal South Africa. Tel/fax: (031) 751958 From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 17-SEP-1996 06:23:51.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hyperactivity in dogs. Does anyone have any references on the following:- 1. Curing hyperactivity in dogs. 2. The effect food has on the behaviour of dogs. I thank you in anticipation. GLYNNE ANDERSON E-mail= k9acad@iafrica 32 Hospital Rd. Hillcrest 3610 KwaZulu Natal South Africa. Tel/fax: (031) 751958 From: IN%"p1008@cis.co.za" 17-SEP-1996 06:30:08.00 To: IN%"csmuir@es.co.nz" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Hi everyone - Min Hi Min Reading your e-mail, I see you don't know what a cloud forest is. There are a number of names for these forests, such as mist belt forests, for one. I would recommend you contact the I.U.C.N Commission on National Parks and Protected Areas. The contact person is Dr Lawrence.S.Hamilton, Vice-Chair (Mountains). There is an excellent publication available from the I.U.C.N. Focus Series called, A Campaign for Cloud Forests, Unique and valuable ecosystems at risk. Very briefly cloud forests or mist-belt forests are found on mountain tops where they strip atmospheric moisture (horizontal moisture that is), from clouds, which increases the amount of water availability to the soil. They are also under threat. Regards Philip From: IN%"BBEAVER@VETMED.TAMU.EDU" "Bonnie Beaver" 17-SEP-1996 07:49:21.63 To: IN%"apbc4_um@earth.ftech.co.uk", IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hyperactivity in dogs. -Reply "Hyperactivity" in dogs can actually come in a number of different forms and so the term "hyper syndrome" might be more appropriate. 1) The very active normal dog. This dog just needs a lot of exercise. 2) The dog that is "hyper" due to food allergies. The most significant allergy that I have seen here is related to protein and high protein diets. 3) The hyperactive dog that responds appropriately to mild doses of a tranquilizer like acepromazine. 4) the hyperkinetic dog that respons appropriately to a stimulant, either amphetamine or methylphenidate. 5) The dog that has more than one of the above problems coexisting. I hope this will be helpful. Bonnie Beaver, DVM e-mail: bbeaver@vetmed.tamu.edu From: IN%"peter.penning@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Peter Penning" 17-SEP-1996 08:54:53.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: how much milk does a beef cow make During the 1970 s, at the former Grassland Research Institute in the UK, there was a major research programme looking at suckler cows. This work was mainly carried out by R.D.Baker and Y.L.P. Le Du. A few references to get you started. Le Du et al. 1978 The use of short-term secretion rate measurements for estimating the milk production of suckler cows. J. Dairy Res. 45: 1-4 Le Du et al. 1976. Milk-fed calves. 3. The milk intake, herbage intake and performance of suckled calves Baker R.D et al. 1976. Effect of plane of nutrition in early lactation on suckler cow and calf performance. Anim Prod. 22: 141-142 Baker R.D et al. 1979. The response of suckler cows and calves to a range of grazing severities. Anim. Prod 28: 421-422 Peter Penning IGER, North Wyke From: IN%"Azi@soton.ac.uk" "AZI" 17-SEP-1996 09:54:10.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: seeking useful employment Hi I have just graduated with a First in Zoology and I am currently seeking short or long-term employment in any aspect of applied ethology. If anyone has a vacancy for a hard-working, enthusiastic graduate, please could you reply to Paula Redman, via the AZI email address. I would also be interested in gaining experience on a short-term voluntary basis if paid employment is unavailable. Thanks Paula From: IN%"dmills@dmu.ac.uk" "Daniel Simon Mills" 17-SEP-1996 10:59:32.45 To: IN%"Azi@soton.ac.uk" "AZI" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: seeking useful employment Dear Paula, Please send me something in writing and we will keep you on file. We curerently run an undergrad programme in applied ethology and may be needing some help with ongoing research . send your cv to me with details of your aspirations please Daniel Mills De Montfort University Lincoln Caythorpe Court Caythorpe Lincs NG32 3EP No promises but I'll see what we can do and certainly keep you on file. If you want to know more about me , speak to anne or john at the |AZI On Tue, 17 Sep 1996, AZI wrote: > Hi > I have just graduated with a First in Zoology and I am currently > seeking short or long-term employment in any aspect of applied ethology. If > anyone has a vacancy for a hard-working, enthusiastic graduate, please could > you reply to Paula Redman, via the AZI email address. I would also be > interested in gaining experience on a short-term voluntary basis if paid > employment is unavailable. > > Thanks > Paula > > > From: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" 17-SEP-1996 11:57:03.20 To: IN%"FENDER@vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: shock collars Here is my general response to Marilyn Fender and others re-shock collars: >First I need to ask... are you familiar with dog training in general and >the various schools of thought and various old approaches ??? I have a PhD in animal behaviour, and I have been studying applied aspects of dog behavior for 17 years. >Secondly, I need to ask... how familiar are you with positive and negative >reinforcement and other terms that are used in applied behavior analysis. I am quite familiar with these terms. >Thirdly...if you are worried about the collar mis-treating dogs.. Certainly >it can but also it can be used very effectively and humanely. It of course >should never be used by someone who has a bad temper. But then, those folks >shouldn't own a dog under any circumstances. It should also never be used >by someone who doesn't understand what good effective training is. The >collar will never make a bad trainer into a good trainer. I would question whether a 'good trainer' needs to use such a device. >The collar is used at a level that you can put against your own arm. It has >less effect than a big jerk on a choke chain. I am equally concerned about 'big jerks' on choke chains. >What is most important is to use the levels of learning. You start with >acquistion which has all sorts of rules about how you present new >information to animals or to children.. the basic principles are all the >same behind both. Then you go to moving to fluency, and then generalization >and then finally maintenance. This has stood up under well designed >research. When teaching dogs... you go thru the same sequence. The collar >is never used for initial acquisition of skills.. > >Not sure if this answers your question since it was not clear what exactly >you were asking....or what you were asking. It doesn't answer my question. I want to know what you mean in straightforward practical terms when you say that you are using these devices 'as reinforcement'. What behavior are you reinforcing, how are you reinforcing it with electric shocks, and does this differ from remote punishment? Many thanks to Matthias Schilder and others for their information. James Serpell ___________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________ James A. Serpell Marie A. Moore Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, School of Veterinary Medicine, Dept. of Clinical Studies, University of Pennsylvania, 3850 Spruce Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010. USA From: IN%"APPLEBYM@EM.AGR.CA" "Michael Appleby" 17-SEP-1996 13:19:09.01 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Mike Appleby migrating east This is my last day in Canada - well, for this trip anyway. From today I shall be reverting to the Old World: mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk Best wishes Mike Appleby From: IN%"arowan@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU" 17-SEP-1996 13:22:57.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: shock collars >>Date: Mon, 16 Sep 1996 11:10:22 +0000 >>From: serpell@pobox.upenn.edu (James Serpell) >>Subject: shock collars >>To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >> >Dear James, > >Tha manifacturers of Tritronic schok collars have produced an instruction >video-tape, which shows how indeed he shock collar may be (!) used as a >negative >reinforcer. They show, for example, a dog being trained to the heel command >(without use of the shock collar. Subsequently, the dog gets the collar on and >if he lags behind after having received the "heel" command, he will get mild >continuous shocks until he speeds up and walks with its head close to the >handler's heel. Then, the electric stimulation is terminated. This indeed >functions as a negative reinforcement. The Tritronic shock collar produces a >series of very short shocks, that are turned off automatically after 10 secs, >(this is a safety measure). The level of the shocks may be adjusted in 15 >steps. >Often, however, the collar is being used as a punisher. It is notheworthy, >that >the end of any pretty forcefull punishment may induce "relief", which is a >positive feeling. This relief may function as a reinforcer for ending some >behaviour, or for the behaviour the animal shows when the punishment stops. >In this way the collar is often being used to train the "let go" command in >training police dogs, at least in Holland. The dog may receive a (severe) >electrical stimulation when not obeing this command, and is automatically >rewarded when the handler stops shocking after the dog has let go of the >"criminal", again by negative reinforcement. > >I would like to ad that this partly "positive" explanation of the use of the >shock collar does not imply that I recommend the use of it. > >dr Matthijs Schilder >Ethology and socio-ecology >Utrecht University >Netherlands I have often seen people use "negative reinforcement" as a way to avoid the term "punishment". Could the use of the shock collar really be viewed as a reinforcer of heeling behavior or should it be seen as a punisher of lagging behavior (however "mild" the punishment might be)? Andrew Andrew N Rowan Director Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy School of Veterinary Medicine 200 Westboro Rd N. Grafton, MA 01536 Phone: (508) 839 7991; Fax: (508) 839 2953 Email: arowan@opal.tufts.edu From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 18-SEP-1996 09:37:24.19 To: IN%"FENDER@vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: shock collars Here is my general response to Marilyn Fender and others re-shock collars: I start with questions we should be asking - perhaps Ms Fender may care to answer some of the following:- 1. Is the shock collar being used as a life saving device? 2. Is it being used to obtain a qualification and/or for the glory of the handler? 3. Does a competent dog handler need to resort to a shock collar to achieve results? 4. How can a shock be used as positive reinforcement? Can it be compared to banging your head on a brick wall because it's so nice when you stop? 5. Perhaps handlers should stick to training dogs and leave electricians to their devices? GLYNNE ANDERSON k9acad@iafrica.com From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 18-SEP-1996 09:44:02.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: shock collars Here is my general response to Marilyn Fender and others re-shock collars: I start with questions we should be asking - perhaps Ms Fender may care to answer some of the following:- 1. Is the shock collar being used as a life saving device? 2. Is it being used to obtain a qualification and/or for the glory of the handler? 3. Does a competent dog handler need to resort to a shock collar to achieve results? 4. How can a shock be used as positive reinforcement? Can it be compared to banging your head on a brick wall because it's so nice when you stop? 5. Perhaps handlers should stick to training dogs and leave electricians to their devices? GLYNNE ANDERSON k9acad@iafrica.com From: IN%"gbliss@mail.tds.net" "Jerry Bliss" 18-SEP-1996 10:26:38.99 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: New Member Hello Let me introduce myself. I am Jerry Bliss assistant professor of theatre at Colby-Sawyer College in New London, New Hampshire. Though I teach theatre I have a lasting interest in Animal Behavior from my undergraduate years at the Univ of New Hampshire. I am interested in finding out about a Chimpanzee behavioral study that I read about. I have since lost that article and cannot recollect exactly where I read it. It was about a group studying Chimpanzees in the "wild" here in the United States. I think it was somewhere in the southeast maybe the Carolinas. Apparently this group has tried to recreate the Chimpanzees natural habitat in Africa. I am sorry that this is somewhat vague but I thought that this discussion group, Applied-Ethology would be a good place to start my search. If anyone can give me any information at all it would be appreciated. Thank-you Jerry Bliss Colby-Sawyer College New London NH 03257 e-mail gbliss@kear.tdsnet.com From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 18-SEP-1996 11:29:07.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: shock collars In a message dated 96-09-17 19:15:50 EDT, you write: >I would question whether a 'good trainer' needs to use such a device. I am a VERY good dog trainer and will match my credentials in publicly verifiable events with most. And I have needed to use a shock collar on several occasions. My biggest problem is keeping the thing charged and ready to work between times of need. I have used it to negatively reinforce recalls on dogs who would have been killed by cars without a recall. I have used bark collars to silence dogs who whould have been dumped in shelters by owners facing eviction for nuisance barking. Do you want to keep the dog alive and safe in his home, or do you want to be a "good trainer" who would rather see the dog dead on the highway or abandoned by owners who have to choose between surrendering the dog or staying in their home? Get real, Margie From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 18-SEP-1996 11:34:49.95 To: IN%"FENDER@vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu" "'FENDER@vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu'", IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" "'serpell@pobox.upenn.edu'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" Subj: RE: shock collars James, >From: serpell@pobox.upenn.edu[SMTP:serpell@pobox.upenn.edu] >Sent: Tuesday, September 17, 1996 7:49 AM >To: FENDER@vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu >Cc: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re: shock collars > >Here is my general response to Marilyn Fender and others re-shock collars: > >>First I need to ask... are you familiar with dog training in general and >>the various schools of thought and various old approaches ??? > >I have a PhD in animal behaviour, and I have been studying applied aspects >of dog behavior for 17 years. >>Secondly, I need to ask... how familiar are you with positive and negative >>reinforcement and other terms that are used in applied behavior analysis. > >I am quite familiar with these terms. With all do respect James, I have to question your familiarity with these terms. If you can ask: >I want to know what you mean in >straightforward practical terms when you say that you are using these >devices 'as reinforcement'. What behavior are you reinforcing, how are you >reinforcing it with electric shocks, and does this differ from remote >punishment? > Then it is my humble opinion that you are not familiar enough with these terms. As I recommended in a private email to you, see the article I have made available at: http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/conseq.htm entitled "Confusing Consequences: A Brief Introduction to Operant Conditioning" I too have a Ph.D. Mine is in experimental biopsychology ('84). I have trained dogs in AKC obedience, Schutzhund, and agility. I also work with PAWS With a Cause as a Field Trainer of service and hearing dogs. You can see one of my dogs in action (about 40 pictures at: http://www.coredcs.com/~mplonsky/loboact.htm). BTW, I maintain a web site with all kinds of information related to dog training (with numerous online articles and authors) at: http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/dog/dog.htm Take care, >----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- >----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- >----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- >----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 18-SEP-1996 11:43:45.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hyperactivity in dogs. In a message dated 96-09-17 09:37:36 EDT, you write: >Does anyone have any references on the following:- >1. Curing hyperactivity in dogs. >2. The effect food has on the behaviour of dogs. > > I believe Cornell has produced research on the behavioral effects of protein levels. Sorry, no specific references. Cheers, Margie, NY From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 18-SEP-1996 11:45:09.03 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: shock collars In a message dated 96-09-17 09:47:55 EDT, you write: > >Tha manifacturers of Tritronic schok collars have produced an instruction >video-tape, which shows how indeed he shock collar may be (!) used as a >negative >reinforcer. Actually, the video is pretty dated. More up-to-date information on the use of electrical stimulation as a negative reinforcers can be found in Tritronics' current training manuals or at their seminars. Cheers, Margie, NY From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 18-SEP-1996 11:45:23.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: shock collars In a message dated 96-09-17 15:54:45 EDT, you write: > Could the use of the shock collar really be viewed as >a reinforcer of heeling behavior or should it be seen as a punisher of >lagging behavior (however "mild" the punishment might be)? > > This question has been batted around alot on the dog-training lists, and nobody has come up with a definitive answer. An aversive that triggers a desired behavior obviously stops the behavior that precedes it. Because it's an aversive that stops a behavior, it could be called a punisher. However, I think you have to define the stimulus in terms of the behavior it produces. If you only want to stop the behavior that precedes the stimulus and don't care what else the animal does, the stimulus is clearly a punisher. If, however, the animal is expected to adopt a specific behavior in response to the stimulus, it has to be called a negative reinforcer. Anyway, that's my amateur learning theorist's take on it. Cheers, Margie From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 18-SEP-1996 11:57:07.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: (Fwd) Other shocking devices In a message dated 96-09-17 10:52:48 EDT, you write: > It does not take long for the dog to learn its >boundaries, and it enables owners to leave their dogs outside in the >garden without worrying about them wandering. The dog has control >over the 'reinforcer', it can move away when cued by the buzzing >sound, and can learn to avoid the area. > > Just in case anyone is thinking of running out and buying one of these gadgets, there are two things to keep in mind: It will not keep other animals out of your yard. Once a dog learns that the shock stops as soon as he runs through it, he'll just learn to run REALLY fast to get out of your yard. Once he's out of the yard, the same system will prevent him from coming back into it. The system works best as a supplement to a barrier that will prevent the dog from bolting through the electrical field. Even then, it's no substitute for a good fence. Cheers, Margie, NY (who trains dogs for a living) From: IN%"serpell@pobox.upenn.edu" 18-SEP-1996 12:40:19.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: shock collars Let's try to keep this polite. It was precisely because of the widespread confusion over the meaning of 'negative reinforcement' that I asked Marilyn Fender to clarify (a) her use of shock collars for this purpose, and (b) her claim that she did not use the device as punishment. I am interested in the techniques of training dogs, and whether people are in fact doing what they claim to be doing. Mark Plonsky's web site is a helpful source of definitions, but it also raises doubts. For example, if I may quote: "Positive punishment Definition: The giving of an aversive event contingent on a behavior with the goal of decreasing the likelihood of the behavior in the future. Example: Dog sits up on the long down in the AKC obedience exercise and the owner becomes verbally and/or physically abusive. Negative reinforcement Definition: The removal of an aversive event contingent on a behavior with the goal of increasing the likelihood of the behavior in the future. Example: A technique for teaching the retrieve involves releasing an ear pinch or terminating a shock at the moment the dog clasps the dumbbell in its mouth. In order to use negative reinforcement, one must typically administer the aversive stimulus in order to be able to terminate it. For example, let us again consider the retrieve. An ear pinch or shock is terminated at the moment the dog clasps the dumbbell in its mouth. In order to terminate the aversive stimulus, however, it had to have been initiated (i.e., administered) at some point. Thus, in order to use negative reinforcement, one must typically employ positive punishment as well." It seems to me Andrew Rowan made the point well: from the dog's perspective, is the shock collar really a negative reinforcer of retrieval behavior? Or is it a punisher of the dog's failure to comply with the trainer's retrieval commands. And I am still looking forward to hearing how Marilyn Fender uses these collars. James Serpell ___________________________________________________________________ ___________________________________________________________________ James A. Serpell Marie A. Moore Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, School of Veterinary Medicine, Dept. of Clinical Studies, University of Pennsylvania, 3850 Spruce Street, Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010. USA From: IN%"tthomsen@umich.edu" 18-SEP-1996 12:58:05.32 To: IN%"gbliss@mail.tds.net" "Jerry Bliss", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: New Member Jerry- I think it would be best to address that question to another group, "Primate Talk". You can e-mail them directly (primate-talk@primate.wisc.edu) and they should be helpful. There are several sanctuaries which you might be referring to, such as Yerkes Primate Center, Tulane, etc. Good luck and welcome to the group. -Tricia Thomsen At 8:50 AM 9.18.96, Jerry Bliss wrote: >Hello > >Let me introduce myself. I am Jerry Bliss assistant professor of theatre >at Colby-Sawyer >College in New London, New Hampshire. Though I teach theatre I have a lasting >interest in Animal Behavior from my undergraduate years at the Univ of New >Hampshire. > >I am interested in finding out about a Chimpanzee behavioral study that I >read about. I >have since lost that article and cannot recollect exactly where I read it. >It was about a >group studying Chimpanzees in the "wild" here in the United States. I >think it was >somewhere in the southeast maybe the Carolinas. Apparently this group has >tried to >recreate the Chimpanzees natural habitat in Africa. I am sorry that this >is somewhat >vague but I thought that this discussion group, Applied-Ethology would be >a good place >to start my search. If anyone can give me any information at all it would >be appreciated. > >Thank-you >Jerry Bliss >Colby-Sawyer College >New London NH 03257 > >e-mail gbliss@kear.tdsnet.com --------------------------------------------------------------------------- ~Tricia Thomsen~ University of Michigan, Ann Arbor WWW: http://www-personal.umich.edu/~tthomsen From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 18-SEP-1996 15:31:31.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: shock collars "Positive punishment", "negative reinforcement", blah, blah, blah.... I tried one of these things on my arm, AND IT HURT! In fact I was surprised how painful it was and decided not to take the obvious next step and put it around my neck. My advisor will have to find some other way to keep me under control. I realise that some dog trainers swear by shock collars as being effective training devices. I'm sure they are. But I still wouldn't want a working relationship with an animal built on electrocuting the poor beast every time it did something I didn't like. I just don't see any way the benefits to the person outweigh the cost to the animal. If the dog is so temperamentally unsuited to the task that it can't be trained more humanely, get a different dog, give up the task, or go retrieve your own duck. This is a personal (and emotional) view, I'm no expert on dog training. I hope you don't all feel you wasted your time by reading it. Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"E.Kinnaird@mailbox.uq.oz.au" "emily kinnaird" 18-SEP-1996 16:38:56.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: reinforcement I'm very happy that this list has a number of highly qualified readers, however, James Serpell's point seems to be that there is confusion about the application of the term "reinforcement". This is certainly a problem which is seen both in the literature for the layperson, and unfortunately, is often confusing as well. Therefore, it would be very beneficial for individuals to define their usages for the understanding for all on the list. This would make discussion of the emotionally charged topic of the use of shock collars as training tools more beneficial. Emily (not yet a PhD) Kinnaird From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 18-SEP-1996 18:24:20.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: shock collars In a message dated 96-09-18 16:18:49 EDT, you write: > Is the shock collar being used as a life saving device? >2. Is it being used to obtain a qualification and/or for the glory of the >handler? >3. Does a competent dog handler need to resort to a shock collar to achieve >results? >4. How can a shock be used as positive reinforcement? Can it be compared to >banging your head on a brick wall because it's so nice when you stop? Shees, I thought this was a list for the discussion of the application of the theoretical knowlege of animal behavior and the laws of learning. I didn't know it was going to turn into a a test of who is more humane than who. I've been there and done that on other lists. If it's just more of the same, I'm sorry I subscribed. The collar works exactly according to the laws of learning and behavior. Just like any other reinforcement. No better and no worse. Just like any other stimulus, it has to be understood. Cheers, Margie From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 19-SEP-1996 01:20:12.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Shock collars [[I havn't got a Phd. It was all set up but I decided to go sailing and got my Coastal Skipper ticket instead. Much more useful. And you learn how to spin a good yarn!] Reflect upon the dog trained to "heel" by an obsessive obedience afficiondo or a martinet police dog handler. You will see dogs that appear to be "velcro-ed" to the handlers leg. When the wind tilts the hunde-fuehrer's cap, his (sic) hand goes up to adjust it.Watch the dog! If it cringes down a couple of centimetres you are watching something called "active avoidance". The dog has learned that in a hurricane of jerks, reprimands and splintering-bond signals, there is an "eye" of peace in the storm. When it is glued fast to the leg it is "safe". Now there has been a tendency to take this for granted. We have talked of the "reduction of fear" for example. A notion exists that it is "nice when it stops-by contrast. I think Christoper Hobbes was talking abut this in 1651 (Leviathan Chap. 6). Many people now see that the opposite of Punishment is Relief. Escape or Avoidance behaviour is postively rewarded by the neurochemistry of pleasure. Humans will "play chicken" for it, bungey dive for it, kick the bully's bum and run for it, or experience it passively when they escape horror by sheer chance. It is thrilling. The intensity of relief is proportional to the intensity of the arousal and aversion (fear/pain) of the stimulus. I think that there is very much more to this than mere contrast. Engel and Rocha(1992) introduced the information that repeated limbic epileptic seizures enhance opioid synthesis and upregulate opioid receptors in the brains of epileptic patients. When these patients have their seizures controlled by anti-convulsant therapy they can experience unequivoval withdrawal symptoms. The question is could this be happening at sub-seizure levels of stimulation? Could the repeated experience of relief from intense punishment be "addictive"? Now look at the electroshocked "shuttling" dog. (from my posting of 18 July "Kuhn and Paradigms". ... Salkovskis assails the paradigm and offers the compulsively shuttling dogs of Solomon, Kamin and Wynne (1954) with their "...bizarre and stereotyped variants of the shuttling response. Furthermore once the unconditioned stimulus (electric shock) was removed, animals persisted in the shuttling response..(it) was only extinguished when the animals were forcibly prevented from shuttling; under these circumstances, the aninmals demonstrated extreme agitation and the re-emergence of anxiety. This was significant because during the phase when they were allowed to shuttle freely, the avoidance response became highly practiced and apperaed tobe anxiety-free.....The availablity of this well-validated model makes it difficult to se why canine acral lick dermatitis (as described by Pigott et al.) should be regarded as a particularly usefulmodel for OCD." Some of the nonchalantly shuttling dogs went on for 200 (unshocked) trials. One dog performed 650. The point here is that stopping "avoidance" behaviour is intensely unpleasant, The dog, I would argue, is now experiencing severe "withdrawal" symptoms and the physiology of these is widely accepted to be identical to that of fear..but possibly worse. Relief induced by intensely aversive stimuli must be the mirror image of post traumatic stress disorder. We could call it "post traumatic reward disorder"! Humans have inflicted it, induced it, tortured it into people in tough schools, elite regiments, seminaries, convent schools, religious cults, brain-washing units etc. etc. Graduation from these institution can carry lifelong problems for people who experience acute distress when prevented from performing their rituals. To distress an old soldier badly..hid his boot polish! I believe there are great difficulites involved in recovering people from certain types of cult... The "shockers" can now argue that training based upon "frustrative non-reward", "time out", "withdrawal of love", "flooding" etc etc is acutely punishing and just as cruel! The big question lies with the nature of "homo sapiens obsessans"! Why do we need to do this? For sport? For competion trophies? Or because consummatory rewards and the "normal" pleasures of sex and bonding and ear tickling are rather plain compared to "post traumatic relief"? Training by ordinary rewards gives a loose, unregimented, informal rather sloppy array of approximations to the task. And, indeed, we castigate peple and animals who are overenthusiastic in the consummatory activites. There is no limit to our treachery!!! The separated dog who has severe "signalled" withdrawal symptoms when its owner leaves the house and indulges in adjunctive routines in an attempt to restore the lost pleasure...is called a miscreant..a bad..sick dog! Now, good and responsible folk like Dr, Fender and Dr. Plonsky will point out to us that "loosely" trained, kindly managed folk, may be a disaster in certain kinds of service ...they would have a point. Ok! There is a problem here... should we do it at all? Can we not get to precision, fidelity, concentration, by using signals associated with sharp frustrative experiences that take arousal to levels less than traumatizing ones? Or, as Jon says CHOOSE a dog who is mad enough to it already. I think there is too much investment in appearance and predigree to allow this to happen..but it should. Let the trainer wear a spare collar on a suitable part of his or her anatomy to share the shocks and attest to their benign nature!! R.E.Walker P.S Ocasionally the police dog trained to "speak" by having its ear pinched until it vocalizes..tends to duck slightly to one side on the command. PPS Wasn't there some correspondence in the UK press (three or four years ago) on the idea that acquisition of a Phd. somehow damaged the intellect? From: IN%"bhayes@dsu.deltast.edu" "William A. Hayes" 19-SEP-1996 04:54:41.85 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Shock collars On Thu, 19 Sep 1996, Robin E Walker wrote: > PPS Wasn't there some correspondence in the UK press (three or > four years ago) on the idea that acquisition of a Phd. somehow > damaged the intellect? Relative to degrees, years ago one of my professors said "the further you go the crazier you get and the crazier you get the further you go!" He had been through 2 post-docs. He also defined parasitologist (of which he was one) as people who look for truth in strange places. :) Best wishes, Bill ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- William A. Hayes, II, Ph.D. | If you follow your bliss, you put yourself Professor of Biology | on a kind of a track that has been there P.O.Box 3234 | the whole while, waiting for you, and the Delta State University | life you ought to be living is the one you Cleveland, MS 38733 | are living. --- Joseph Campbell ph: 601-846-4247 \ _____ ____ fax: 601-846-4016 | \_____ _____/ \ email: bhayes@dsu.deltast.edu | __ \^^/ __ | | ////)\(0= =0)/(\\\\ // ^\| / ^^ \ |/^ \\ ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- Website - http://www.deltast.edu/academics/artsci/bio/hayes/wahhome.htm ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"pbmcconn@facstaff.wisc.edu" 19-SEP-1996 08:51:36.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: shock collars Re: Shock Collars I find myself compelled to add my two cents worth about the use of shock collars. (My background, so that you can put my words in perspective, is a Ph.D. in Zoology, minor in Psych; I work now as an Applied Ethologist in my own clinic with problem dogs and cats, lecture at Univ. of Wisconsin in Zoology and at the Vet School in Small Animal Ethology, am Chair of the Issues in Applied Animal Behavior Committee of the Animal Behavior Society and raise and train working and competing Border collie herding dogs.) Firstly, I find the debate about negative reinforcement and punishment to be very interesting. I suggest that it is actually, as suggested by Serpell, extremely difficult to seperate out whether an animal is being punished for the INITIATION of a behavior, or receiving "reinforcement" for the CESSATION of the behavior. As someone who believes that the lines between many of the terms used in conditioning are actually very fuzzy (i.e., the lines between classical and operant conditioning are actually much less defined than many suggest, I believe), it is not surprising that one could argue a shock is acting both as a punishment for the initiation of a behavior and a reinforcer for the cessation of it. In my extensive experience training dogs, I have found attending to the intiation of a behavior to be most successful in either inhibiting it or increasing its frequency, so if forced to chose I would argue that in many cases animals are actually perceiving the shock as a punishment for the intiation of a behavior. However, there is no reason both principles could not be operating simultaneously. Secondly, regarding the use of shock collars in training, no matter how they act, I can not affirm my belief more strongly that they should only be used in serious, possibly life threatening conditions. I equate the use of collars to surgery --- both are potentially severly injurious and invasive and painful. I do have one, and I do on occassion recommend that clients use it, but only after other methods have been exhausted. I have seen collars misused repeatedly by peole who did not have the training to have any idea of the importance of timing, or of the strong possibillity that the animal will learn the wrong thing (I suspect this happens alot. I have had many clients who tried a collar before contacting me and ended up with the dog learning something completely different than they had intended, usually an avoidance of a particular area.) I have found it helpful to explain to people that a collar is like a scalpel --- and thus can be either a life saving tool or a dangerous weapon in the hands of someone who is not trained. Yes, it is undoubtedly true that there are trainers out there, especially in the world of hunting, who use collars as a matter of course and who are skilled practioneers. Just as there are many many excellent surgeons in the world of medicine. However, I personally would never endure something as invasive and dangerous and painful as surgery unless I had explored all the alternatives. And thirdly, I take strong exception to the worlds of Robin Walked, who said that: "Training by ordinary rewards gives a loose, unregimented, informal rather sloppy array of approximations to the task." This is false. Simply and totally false. Come to a herding dog trial, where the well trained dogs "lie down" instantly from a dead run while chasing prey 500 yds from their owners. Of course they all don't, but the good ones do, and yes, a few handlers use collars in herding dogs, but very very few --- the top trainers in No. American and the UK argue that people who use collars simply don't know enough about how dogs think and how to train, and I couldn't agree more. I have 5 dogs --- 4 are Border collies who hit the dirt and flatten if I say lie down, even if chasing a deer. That was trained with a thorough understanding of positive reinforcement, a daily life in which my dogs understand that they are loved, cherised, safe and secure but not high in status and approximately 1 to 4 incidents each of punishment (the only physical correction I ever use is to clip their chin with an undercut) in their 3 to 10 year life spans. If you don't believe that, talk to Karen Pyror about eliciting perfect behavior from her performing dolphins. OF COURSE you can get an extremely high level of performance using MOSTLY positive reinforcement, and you certainly don't need a shock collar in most cases to get it. However ....l. It is painful to me to admit, though I feel I must, that I just used one on my Great Pyrenees sheep guarding dog, who learned to scale my 4.5 foot woven wire fence like a fireman climbs a ladder. She must live free inside my 13 acres farm to protect my sheep from coyotes, yet she most certainly would be killed on the highway or shot by farmers if she roamed free. The farm is fenced, but Tulip is a brilliant, athletic young dog who seems up to any phsical challenge. I hated doing it, I put if off much longer than I should of, but I couldn't lie in bed at night knowing Tulip had been killed on the road because I was too stubborn to use a collar. It's too soon to say, but I suspect it will be successful. It is the only time I have ever used a collar on one of my dogs and I feel confident that I made the right decision given the circumstances, but still wish I could have avoided it. I hope list members find these comments of interest. Sincerely, Patricia McConnell From: IN%"sschmerl@umich.edu" "Sonia Schmerl" 19-SEP-1996 09:48:32.42 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology mailing list" CC: Subj: humans and dogs -- [ From: Sonia Schmerl * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- Hello, All: I am new to this list, so here's an introduction: I am very interested in the evolution of the relationship between dogs and humans. It seems to me that the relationship between humans and what we call "domesticated animals" could be seen as a result of co-evolution, with identifiable benefits on both sides of the relationship. This idea is developed in Stephen Budiansky's book, "The Covenant of the Wild: Why Animals Chose Domestication." I am always surprised by the concept of domestication as a deliberate action taken by humans in order to transform a wild species into a useful, domestic species. Clearly humans do selectively breed animals once they are domesticated, but is this an adequate description of the origin of the relationship? To me, dogs are the most interesting of domestic animals, because of the antiquity of the relationship, and because of the complexity of the communication and empathy between humans and dogs. I am interested in the following sorts of questions: Are there human societies extant which do not have dogs? What are the different roles dogs play in different sorts of human societies, from hunter/gatherers to agriculturalists to city dwellers? Could someone point me to archaeological evidence that indicates the role of dogs in prehistoric human culture? I would be interested in hearing from people who share these interests, especially academics who might be able to help me find a place in the field of ethology, or psychology, or wherever I belong. I am now working as a laboratory technician in cell and molecular biology (medical research). Thanks Sonia Schmerl sschmerl@umich.edu From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 19-SEP-1996 12:00:30.43 To: IN%"pbmcconn@facstaff.wisc.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: shock collars >Re: Shock Collars > >I find myself compelled to add my two cents worth about the use of shock >collars. > >> >And thirdly, I take strong exception to the worlds of Robin Walked, who >said that: > >"Training by ordinary rewards gives a loose, unregimented, informal >rather sloppy array of approximations to the task." > I speak as a former army drill instructor, inmate of a military stockade and a military policeman. My army career was brief but very exciting. I was brought up with working Border Collies. I have been veterinary consultant to a large police dog section for 26 years. "Ordinary rewards" (praise and titbits when you get it right) do not give a result that satisfies the fanatical trials judge or competitor. >This is false. Simply and totally false. Come to a herding dog >trial, where the well trained dogs "lie down" instantly from a dead >run while chasing prey 500 yds from their owners. Of course they >all don't, but the good ones do, You are not using "ordinary rewards" >I have 5 dogs --- 4 are Border collies who hit the dirt and flatten >if I say lie down, even if chasing a deer. And this was achieved with a biscuit and praise? >That was trained with a thorough understanding of positive reinforcement No it wasn,t! It was inculcated by the intimidation of your command "LIE DOWN! [In a breed harshly selected for innate timidity and biddability. dissenters were drowned by Welsh farmers}. >daily life in which my dogs understand that they are loved, >cherised, safe and secure but not high in status and approximately >1 to 4 incidents each of punishment (the only physical correction I ever use is to clip their chin with an undercut) in their 3 to 10 year life spans. Yes! Yes! They are loved. They are highly bonded! They are safe! They hang upon your praise. All you have to do is threaten them with glares and growls. This is non-reward! They crave the bond. You can remove the reward. They will work to get it back. It is highly effective for the obsequious Border. You can do it all with the voice. It is a punishment !But it isn't enough IS IT? You reinforce everything with 1 -4 UNDERCUTS TO THE CHIN !!! Thereafter you have a conditioned signal for possible "undercutting" Honest ...Sergeant Major... I only punched him a bit! >If you don't believe that, talk to Karen Pyror about eliciting >perfect behavior from her performing dolphins. OF COURSE you can >get an extremely high level of performance using MOSTLY positive >reinforcement, and you certainly don't need a shock collar in most >cases to get it. MOSTLY! Tell us about MOSTLY! You can get a wonderful performance from the right dog doing tasks it is passionately motivated to perform. Just reassure me that "homo sapiens obsessans adjudicans" and his (sic) bloody clipboard have a margin for loose, non regimental, approximations to the task and that the scores are not affected! Dr. Mcconnell you do not use just ordinary rewards. You use ordinary rewards in conjunction with ordinary punishments! Who doesn't? From: IN%"roberts@EM.AGR.CA" "Suzanne Robert" 19-SEP-1996 12:48:16.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dogs and music Does anyone have any references on the effect of music on the behavior of dogs ? Suzanne Robert Roberts@em.agr.ca From: IN%"black@hercules.calspan.com" 19-SEP-1996 16:17:03.96 To: IN%"sschmerl@umich.edu" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: humans and dogs > -- [ From: Sonia Schmerl * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- > I am very interested in the evolution of the relationship between dogs and > humans. > It seems to me that the relationship between humans and what we call > "domesticated animals" could be seen as a result of co-evolution, with > identifiable benefits on both sides of the relationship. This idea is > developed in Stephen Budiansky's book, "The Covenant of the Wild: Why > Animals Chose Domestication." I am always surprised by the concept of > domestication as a deliberate action taken by humans in order to transform a > wild species into a useful, domestic species. Clearly humans do selectively > breed animals once they are domesticated, but is this an adequate > description of the origin of the relationship? You raise a fascinating point. I think the co-evolution explanation carries more credibility than a strict "domestication as human design" explanation. And I also think this has interesting implications for those who see the human-canine relationship as nothing but our unjustified exploitation of another species...which would become a more difficult position to uphold if both humans and dogs more or less mutually "selected" the current arrangement. There was an interesting article about this in a 1994 issue of American Scientist. According to the article, and as you indicate, the development of this mutually beneficial relationship between humans and canines can be viewed in two ways: (1) intentional domestication implemented as a human decision or (2) an evolutionary process. The article goes on to say that theories assuming human intentionality may be "rooted more in the biases of modern culture than in any objective measures." And that in the evolutionary view, certain animals changed "in response to the selection pressures of a new ecological niche." Some changes in the animals are better explained by "selection pressure other than human preference." A niche to take up residence with humans appeared, and early canids took advantage of it - a highly successful move as indicated by a comparison of the eventual fate of wolves against that of dogs. For more info, see: Darcy F. Morey, July-Aug 1994, American Scientist, 336-347. This article includes over a dozen references, some of which might help address your questions. - Bob (black@calspan.com) From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 19-SEP-1996 17:56:51.55 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: reinforcement In a message dated 96-09-18 19:29:45 EDT, you write: >I'm very happy that this list has a number of highly qualified readers, >however, James Serpell's point seems to be that there is confusion about the >application of the term "reinforcement". This is certainly a problem which >is seen both in the literature for the layperson, and unfortunately, is >often confusing as well. Therefore, it would be very beneficial for >individuals to define their usages for the understanding for all on the >list. This would make discussion of the emotionally charged topic of the >use of shock collars as training tools more beneficial. > > As I understand it, a reinforcement is any stimulus that increases the liklihood of a given behavior. A positive reinforcement occurs after the behavior (the jackpot you win for putting your nickel in the slot machine), and a negative reinforcement occurs before the behavior (that nasty buzz that reminds you to fasten your seatbelt). Did I get it right, teach? Cheers, Margie . From: IN%"mike@m-tay.demon.co.uk" "Mike Taylor" 20-SEP-1996 01:00:07.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Shock Collars A certain eminent gentlemen, recently introduced me to the term " Academic Balloonist ", I will leave readers to ponder its meaning and why I choose to mention it on this subject, needless to say a gas burner will not be required. I have no Phd or any other relevant " d " either, except in computing, a discipline which those who expect machine like precision repeatable performance might be better engaged in than dog training. Although even computers are averse to electric shocks! However between myself and my wife we probably have a combined total well in excess of fifty years practical experience in working with dogs in a variety of contexts. In all of this time we have never ever considered the use of a shock collar for whatever reason and I think if the time ever comes that we do we shall hang up our leads and call it a day. I think that those who advocate and use these devices should stand back and take a long hard look at themselves and what they hope to achieve by these barbaric means. I will second the proposal by Robin Walker "Let the trainer wear a spare collar on a suitable part of his or her anatomy to share the shocks and attest to their benign nature!!" -- Mike Taylor -- From: IN%"SMTP%System%Husdyr[Nabil.Brandl%oldmail.SH.DK]@sh1.sh.dk" 20-SEP-1996 06:45:54.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Measuring distance between pigs Received: by sh1.sh.dk; Fri, 20 Sep 96 14:48:52 EDT Received: by shnt1.sh.dk with SMTP (Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5) id <01BBA702.59D0A600@shnt1.sh.dk>; Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:45:22 +0200 Message-ID: From: Nabil Brandl To: "'SMTP%System%Husdyr[applied-ethology-error%sask.usask.ca]@sh1.sh.dk'" Subject: Measuring distance between pigs Date: Fri, 20 Sep 1996 14:45:20 +0200 X-Mailer: Microsoft Exchange Server Internet Mail Connector Version 4.0.993.5 MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: text/plain; charset="us-ascii" Content-Transfer-Encoding: 7bit Dear All Measuring distance between pigs has a significant knowledge, concerning pigs activity and pigs behaviour. My question to the groupe, Has anybody ideas concerning practical application? I appreciate any idea. Best regards and keep in touch Nabil Brandl >The Danish Institute of Animal Science >Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare >Research Center Foulum >P.O. 39 DK-8830 Tjele >Denmark >Call: 45-89991342 >Fax: 45-89991500 >HomePage: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil From: IN%"schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl" 20-SEP-1996 07:27:00.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: shocking reinforcements >Date: Wed, 18 Sep 1996 10:03:18 +0000 >From: serpell@pobox.upenn.edu (James Serpell) >Subject: shock collars >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca > >Let's try to keep this polite. > >It was precisely because of the widespread confusion over the meaning of >'negative reinforcement' that I asked Marilyn Fender to clarify (a) her use >of shock collars for this purpose, and (b) her claim that she did not use >the device as punishment. I am interested in the techniques of training >dogs, and whether people are in fact doing what they claim to be doing. > >Mark Plonsky's web site is a helpful source of definitions, but it also >raises doubts. For example, if I may quote: > >"Positive punishment > >Definition: The giving of an aversive event contingent on a behavior with >the goal of decreasing the likelihood of the behavior in the future. > >Example: Dog sits up on the long down in the AKC obedience exercise >and the owner becomes verbally and/or physically abusive. > >Negative reinforcement > >Definition: The removal of an aversive event contingent on a behavior >with the goal of increasing the likelihood of the behavior in the future. > >Example: A technique for teaching the retrieve involves releasing an ear >pinch or terminating a shock at the moment the dog clasps the dumbbell >in its mouth. > >In order to use negative reinforcement, one must typically administer >the aversive stimulus in order to be able to terminate it. For example, let >us again consider the retrieve. An ear pinch or shock is terminated at the >moment the dog clasps the dumbbell in its mouth. In order to terminate the >aversive stimulus, however, it had to have been initiated (i.e., >administered) at some point. Thus, in order to use negative reinforcement, >one must typically employ positive punishment as well." > >It seems to me Andrew Rowan made the point well: from the dog's >perspective, is the shock collar really a negative reinforcer of retrieval >behavior? Or is it a punisher of the dog's failure to comply with the >trainer's retrieval commands. > >And I am still looking forward to hearing how Marilyn Fender uses these collars. > >James Serpell > >___________________________________________________________________ >___________________________________________________________________ > >James A. Serpell >Marie A. Moore Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, >School of Veterinary Medicine, >Dept. of Clinical Studies, >University of Pennsylvania, >3850 Spruce Street, >Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010. >USA To James and others > James Serpell quotes Plonsky's remark, that the occurrence of punishment is a prerequisite for negative reinforcement to be possible. Plonsky is abselutely right. Indeed I think a dog receives punishment at first and subsequently, will be rewarded for stopping unwanted behaviour by negative reinforcement when the punishment stops. This underlines the importance of stopping with punishment by dog owners and trainers at the right moment. If punishment stops within a few seconds (3-5 secs) after the dog stops unwanted behaviour, then "relief" is likely to occur, which acts as a reinforcer upon stopping the punished behaviour. If a dog trainer or owner continues punishment after the dog has complied (which too often happens) this effect is countered. I recommend strongly to those interested to read chapter 6 in Denny's book "Fear, avoidance and phobias, a fundamental analysis"; M.R Denny (ed), Laurence Erlbaum ass. publ., Hillsdale New Jersey, 1991. This chapter contains data on relaxation and relief and has contributed to my understanding of negative reinforcement and the time aspects involved. Finally, Bonne Beerda a I have investigated behavioural and physiological reactions of dogs upon receiving 1 sec shocks, using the Tritronics apparatus mentioned in my earlier message. . Dogs did not react to low shock levels, (however unpleasent these low levels may be on a human arm!). We did not use high levels for ethical reasons, but in the middle ranges shocks are mildly to very unpleasant for dogs, although they habituate quickly. One should not forget that the degree of aversiveness a dog experiences will be strongly influenced by the aspects of predictability and controllability. For example, in a dog, that has hunted and killed sheep, application of a shock collar leads to a quick cessation of predation without too much troubles, since the dog can control the ending of the pain. The experience is, that one to two strong shocks, with intervals of 2-3 months, are sufficient. Since controllability and predictability for the dog are high, (at least if the application is correct!), negative effects upon the dogs are minimal. I find this application the only legitimate way to apply a shock collar, since it may prevent dogs from being destroyed. By the way, our data on the effects of short shocks and other acute stressors on dogs will be published next year. Greetings, dr Matthijs Schilder Ethology and socio-ecolgy Utrecht University Netherlands From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 20-SEP-1996 10:01:30.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hyperactivity in dogs. -Reply Reply to message from BBEAVER@VETMED.TAMU.EDU of Tue, 17 Sep > >"Hyperactivity" in dogs can actually come in a number of different >forms and so the term "hyper syndrome" might be more appropriate. 1) >The very active normal dog. This dog just needs a lot of exercise. >2) The dog that is "hyper" due to food allergies. The most >significant allergy that I have seen here is related to protein and >high protein diets. 3) The hyperactive dog that responds >appropriately to mild doses of a tranquilizer like acepromazine. 4) >the hyperkinetic dog that respons appropriately to a stimulant, >either amphetamine or methylphenidate. 5) The dog that has more than >one of the above problems coexisting. > >I hope this will be helpful. >Bonnie Beaver, DVM >e-mail: bbeaver@vetmed.tamu.edu > > I would like to second the above comments and add one of my own. In my experience, most dogs that owners see as hyperactive are this way because of hyperstimulation from the owners in the form of excessive positive (talk, strokes, playing) input, and/or excessive negative (mostly, loud, ineffective verbal correction) input. The hyperactivity in these cases has many of the aspects of a typical chemical addiction. That is, the patient receives excessive attention to her normal entreaties for attention, which reinforces this activity, which leads to increased patient demands for attention, which, to a point, is enjoyed and responded to by the owners, which results in a physical "need" (endorphins?) or at least a psychological need in the patient. In any case, these patients are, in my opinion, literally "hooked" on attention, and when they do not get it they will do almost anything to get the "fix" they need to calm this attention addiction. Of course, by this point the owner has ceased to view his pet's antics as loving or fun, and now sees this behavior as "hyperactive". By far, most of these cases, in my experience, are from excessive positive input, but I have seen a few where the dog became attention addicted from people who just yelled at their pets excessively. Not uncommonly, the positive input cases become mixed with negative attention as the owners become less enthralled with the dogs demands for attention. The treatment of Attention Addiction, in theory is very simple and effective: Just put the dog on a "No Free Lunch" program. That is, the dog gets no attention of any kind without earning it; by responding to some command first. In practice, the owners have typically developed some degree of attention need of their own. As a result, they have great difficulty with applying the needed self discipline and restraint. -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) Animal Behavior Clinic Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 216/826-0013 Fax: 234-3407 From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 20-SEP-1996 13:56:25.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology-error" CC: Subj: RE: humans and dogs Sonia: You might be interested in an article I wrote on the subject of animal domestication. Price, E.O. (1984). Behavioral aspects of animal domestication. The Quarterly Review of Biology. 59: 1-30. Ed Price ---------- >From: applied-ethology-error >To: Applied-ethology mailing list >Subject: humans and dogs >Date: Thursday, September 19, 1996 11:48AM > >-- [ From: Sonia Schmerl * EMC.Ver #2.5.02 ] -- > >Hello, All: > I am new to this list, so here's an introduction: > I am very interested in the evolution of the relationship between >dogs and >humans. > It seems to me that the relationship between humans and what we call >"domesticated animals" could be seen as a result of co-evolution, with >identifiable benefits on both sides of the relationship. This idea is >developed in Stephen Budiansky's book, "The Covenant of the Wild: Why >Animals Chose Domestication." I am always surprised by the concept of >domestication as a deliberate action taken by humans in order to transform a >wild species into a useful, domestic species. Clearly humans do selectively >breed animals once they are domesticated, but is this an adequate >description of the origin of the relationship? > To me, dogs are the most interesting of domestic animals, because of >the >antiquity of the relationship, and because of the complexity of the >communication and empathy between humans and dogs. > I am interested in the following sorts of questions: > Are there human societies extant which do not have dogs? > What are the different roles dogs play in different sorts of human >societies, from hunter/gatherers to agriculturalists to city dwellers? > Could someone point me to archaeological evidence that indicates the >role >of dogs in prehistoric human culture? > > I would be interested in hearing from people who share these >interests, >especially academics who might be able to help me find a place in the field >of ethology, or psychology, or wherever I belong. I am now working as a >laboratory technician in cell and molecular biology (medical research). > > Thanks > > Sonia Schmerl > sschmerl@umich.edu > From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 20-SEP-1996 15:24:26.96 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.freenet.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hyperactivity in dogs. -Reply >Reply to message from BBEAVER@VETMED.TAMU.EDU of Tue, 17 Sep >> >>"Hyperactivity" in dogs can actually come in a number of different >>forms and so the term "hyper syndrome" might be more appropriate. 1) >>The very active normal dog. This dog just needs a lot of exercise. >>2) The dog that is "hyper" due to food allergies. The most >>significant allergy that I have seen here is related to protein and >>high protein diets. 3) The hyperactive dog that responds >>appropriately to mild doses of a tranquilizer like acepromazine. 4) >>the hyperkinetic dog that respons appropriately to a stimulant, >>either amphetamine or methylphenidate. 5) The dog that has more than >>one of the above problems coexisting. >> >>I hope this will be helpful. >>Bonnie Beaver, DVM >>e-mail: bbeaver@vetmed.tamu.edu >> >> > > I would like to second the above comments and add one of my own. >In my experience, most dogs that owners see as hyperactive are this way >because of hyperstimulation from the owners in the form of excessive >positive (talk, strokes, playing) input, and/or excessive negative >(mostly, loud, ineffective verbal correction) input. Absolutely right! Nothing confirms your theory so thoroughly as the shrieking, palpitating, scrabbling, demented toy and miniature poodles of 1960's Britain. Pampered to a jelly of opioids and evacuating all orifices maximally if deprived or frustrated for a few seconds! As classic a picture of "withdrawal" panic as could be imagined! {It was amongst these dogs that I saw my first cases of partial complex seizures induced by frustration.] On the subject of Dr. Beaver's category (2) dogs [above] some of us have been looking at the possibility that it is raised carbohydrate that is more effective than the concomitant lower protein. In short it seems possible to argue that raising carbohydrate induces insulin production which affects amino acid uptake to the advantage of tryptophan uptake by reducing competition for blood brain transport mechanisms. If ample vitamin B6 is available in the diet (an enzyme necessary for conversion of tryptophan to serotinin) the result of an increased CHO ratio seems likely to make adequate serotonin available in brains that need it. If we go back to the idea that the limbic reward cascade of chemistry runs down from seronergic, thro' opioid, and into dopaminergic mechanisms we can see that there is a dietary means of at least ensuring the top end of the process. It is thought that some "hyperactivity" is engendered by organisms frantically trying to achieve some reward or even resting contentment by evoking a faulty reward cascade. The theory is attractive because it is possible to see so many ways of influencing the cascade at various levels. The opiate drugs seem to accelerate the cascade. Amphetamine seems to acheive a result in securing dopamine induced reward.(which may expain the success of methylphenidate which at first sight is paradoxical) Partial inhibitors of the process, such as barbiturates and benzodiazapines can induce great (frustrative0 efforts to secure the end result (the phobic patients who seem to fall in love with the owners). People reach instinctively for carbohydrate foods when unhappy! I have a case history of a raging cocker spaniel which I think was showing a violent adjunctive behaviour because it could achieve no peace. After a year of rages it went on a diet of pasta and vegetarian meal with restricted meat plus B6 and the rages ceased immediately. If anyone is interested I will post it separately. [It is not an isolated ancedote there are a goodly number accruing.] R,E,Walker PS Thro' the 1930's. '40s and 50's delinquent children in British Approved Schools and Borstals were deliberately fed starchy diets because "it seemed to keep them calm". From: IN%"mplonsky@uwsp.edu" "Plonsky, Mark" 21-SEP-1996 11:35:33.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: shock collars >From: serpell@pobox.upenn.edu[SMTP:serpell@pobox.upenn.edu] >Sent: Wednesday, September 18, 1996 5:03 AM >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: shock collars > >It was precisely because of the widespread confusion over the meaning of >'negative reinforcement' that I asked Marilyn Fender to clarify (a) her use >of shock collars for this purpose, and (b) her claim that she did not use >the device as punishment. I am interested in the techniques of training >dogs, and whether people are in fact doing what they claim to be doing. > >Mark Plonsky's web site is a helpful source of definitions, but it also >raises doubts. You go on to quote the web page article at length, but again I think you are missing the main point. The whole purpose of the article is "an attempt at clearing up the confusion over negative reinforcement and punishment." The article goes on to cite three reasons for this confusion. The first concerns the term "negative". The second (which is very related to the first) is the use of a popular slogan by the behaviorists -- "Accentuate the Positive". The final reason for the confusion of negative reinforcement and punishment is the fact that they ARE interrelated. You seem most concerned by the last reason. As Patricia M. has pointed out, it is "extremely difficult to separate out whether an animal is being punished for the INITIATION of a behavior, or receiving "reinforcement" for the CESSATION of the behavior." She goes on to note that "I have found attending to the initiation of a behavior to be most successful in either inhibiting it or increasing its frequency, so if forced to choose I would argue that in many cases animals are actually perceiving the shock as a punishment for the initiation of a behavior. However, there is no reason both principles could not be operating simultaneously." I believe that both principles are definitely operating. I further believe that whether the initiation of the aversive stimulus or its termination is more important is determined by a number of variables such as the intensity and duration of the aversive stimulus as well as whether it's initiation/termination is abrupt or gradual. That said, I actually believe that what this thread really boils down to is an attitude towards the use of aversive stimuli in training dogs. It seems some folks are vehemently against this. On a 1 to 10 scale, these folks would get a zero. Then you have the folks on the other end of the continuum. They purposely don't use food or toys, aversive techniques are the rule. A smile is the most pleasant it may get. (I realize this may be a bit of an oversimplification but I still find it to be a useful notion.) My guess (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) for the scores of some people on this list are as follows: James S. - 0 Glynne A. - 0 Jon W. - 1 Patricia M. - 1-2 Mark P. - 2-4 Robin W. - 2-4 Matthijs S. - 2-4 Marilyn F. - 3-4 By the way, in dog training circles folks that score in the 0-4 range are called "cookie pushers" and folks that score in the 6-10 range are considered by those in the 0-4 range to be unnecessarily harsh. I would also say (although somewhat hesitantly) that a person with any score can be a "successful" trainer. Lastly, I would like to thank all of the folks involved in this thread for the intellectually stimulating discussion. Take care, >----- Mark Plonsky, Ph.D. 715-346-3961 wk ----- >----- Psychology Dept. 715-346-2778 fx ----- >----- University of Wisconsin 715-344-0023 hm ----- >----- Stevens Point, WI 54481 mplonsky@uwsp.edu ----- ----- http://www.uwsp.edu/acad/psych/mphome.htm ----- From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 21-SEP-1996 14:41:57.04 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Shock Collars In a message dated 96-09-20 04:26:15 EDT, you write: > "Let the trainer wear a >spare collar on a suitable part of his or her anatomy to share the >shocks and attest to their benign nature!!" Well, I have one of those 15-levels-of-stimulation numbers, and I've found that I've never needed to use a level on a dog that I couldn't apply to myself. And I always check it out first. I can zap myself with a #6 out of 15 and not curl my hair, experience prefrontal brain damage, or anything beyond "OOPS." Same goes for my dogs. I welcome input from others who have actually strapped one on themselves before trying it out on their dogs. And if anybody has clotheslined themselves with a choke collar, please feel free to share your experience as well. Cheers, Margie From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 21-SEP-1996 15:54:25.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: The dark side of positive reinforcement Reply to message from pbmcconn@facstaff.wisc.edu of Thu, 19 Sep > I could not agree more with the insightful, well thought out comments below, but I must add that any therapy, when musused, can have undesired results. The current obedience training fad in my area is training "only through positive reward". This sounds wonderful to Walt Disney influenced animal "lovers", and, indeed, works wonderfully well in the hands of the experts (Karen Pryor, Ted Turner, Ian Dunbar, etc.) but these people have devoted their lives to ethology and have years of experience to guide them. But in the real world the way this technique is disseminated to the public is through trainers who, on average, have relatively little basic knowledge and understanding of ethology, and as in the game of "telephone", tend to distort the message as it passes through them to another trainer or to a pet owner. The pet owner is usually theoretically unsophisticated and often completely naive in this area. Further, they have a real life full of deadlines, mortgages, sick kids, and aching feet, which means that the fine points of training are not of central interest to them. Thus by the time that this very sophisticated technique filters through them to their raw, untrained puppy many things can, and do, go wrong. In fact, they go wrong so often and so predictably that I now have a new diagnosis in my practice for these wildly uncontrolled, mis- reinforced monsters. I call it PROTS (Positive Reward Obedience Training Syndrome). These dogs are thoroughly mixed up, out of control, and the DA's among them have taken over the family (pack). The typical reason for the failure of the technique is that the owner focuses on the need to say "YES" (positively reward) rather than the need to notice a desired behavior that they can honestly say "YES" to. The net being that they usually reward inconsistantly as far as the pet is concerned, and undesired behavior as far as the owner is concerned. Part of my counseling with these people is to suggest to them that just as they raise their own children to understand both yes and no, so should they do with their pets. D.B. Cameron, DVM >Re: Shock Collars > >I find myself compelled to add my two cents worth about the use of shock >collars. > >(My background, so that you can put my words in perspective, is a Ph.D. in >Zoology, minor in Psych; I work now as an Applied Ethologist in my own >clinic with problem dogs and cats, lecture at Univ. of Wisconsin in Zoology >and at the Vet School in Small Animal Ethology, am Chair of the Issues in >Applied Animal Behavior Committee of the Animal Behavior Society and raise >and train working and competing Border collie herding dogs.) > >Firstly, I find the debate about negative reinforcement and punishment to >be very interesting. I suggest that it is actually, as suggested by >Serpell, extremely difficult to seperate out whether an animal is being >punished for the INITIATION of a behavior, or receiving "reinforcement" for >the CESSATION of the behavior. As someone who believes that the lines >between many of the terms used in conditioning are actually very fuzzy >(i.e., the lines between classical and operant conditioning are actually >much less defined than many suggest, I believe), it is not surprising that >one could argue a shock is acting both as a punishment for the initiation >of a behavior and a reinforcer for the cessation of it. In my extensive >experience training dogs, I have found attending to the intiation of a >behavior to be most successful in either inhibiting it or increasing its >frequency, so if forced to chose I would argue that in many cases animals >are actually perceiving the shock as a punishment for the intiation of a >behavior. However, there is no reason both principles could not be >operating simultaneously. > >Secondly, regarding the use of shock collars in training, no matter how >they act, I can not affirm my belief more strongly that they should only be >used in serious, possibly life threatening conditions. I equate the use of >collars to surgery --- both are potentially severly injurious and invasive >and painful. I do have one, and I do on occassion recommend that clients >use it, but only after other methods have been exhausted. I have seen >collars misused repeatedly by peole who did not have the training to have >any idea of the importance of timing, or of the strong possibillity that >the animal will learn the wrong thing (I suspect this happens alot. I have >had many clients who tried a collar before contacting me and ended up with >the dog learning something completely different than they had intended, >usually an avoidance of a particular area.) I have found it helpful to >explain to people that a collar is like a scalpel --- and thus can be >either a life saving tool or a dangerous weapon in the hands of someone who >is not trained. > > > >Yes, it is undoubtedly true that there are trainers out there, especially >in the world of hunting, who use collars as a matter of course and who are >skilled practioneers. Just as there are many many excellent surgeons in >the world of medicine. However, I personally would never endure something >as invasive and dangerous and painful as surgery unless I had explored all >the alternatives. > >And thirdly, I take strong exception to the worlds of Robin Walked, who >said that: > >"Training by ordinary rewards gives a loose, unregimented, informal >rather sloppy array of approximations to the task." > >This is false. Simply and totally false. Come to a herding dog trial, >where the well trained dogs "lie down" instantly from a dead run while >chasing prey 500 yds from their owners. Of course they all don't, but the >good ones do, and yes, a few handlers use collars in herding dogs, but very >very few --- the top trainers in No. American and the UK argue that people >who use collars simply don't know enough about how dogs think and how to >train, and I couldn't agree more. I have 5 dogs --- 4 are Border collies >who hit the dirt and flatten if I say lie down, even if chasing a deer. >That was trained with a thorough understanding of positive reinforcement, a >daily life in which my dogs understand that they are loved, cherised, safe >and secure but not high in status and approximately 1 to 4 incidents each >of punishment (the only physical correction I ever use is to clip their >chin with an undercut) in their 3 to 10 year life spans. If you don't >believe that, talk to Karen Pyror about eliciting perfect behavior from her >performing dolphins. OF COURSE you can get an extremely high level of >performance using MOSTLY positive reinforcement, and you certainly don't >need a shock collar in most cases to get it. > >However ....l. > >It is painful to me to admit, though I feel I must, that I just used one on >my Great Pyrenees sheep guarding dog, who learned to scale my 4.5 foot >woven wire fence like a fireman climbs a ladder. She must live free inside >my 13 acres farm to protect my sheep from coyotes, yet she most certainly >would be killed on the highway or shot by farmers if she roamed free. The >farm is fenced, but Tulip is a brilliant, athletic young dog who seems up >to any phsical challenge. I hated doing it, I put if off much longer than I >should of, but I couldn't lie in bed at night knowing Tulip had been killed >on the road because I was too stubborn to use a collar. It's too soon to >say, but I suspect it will be successful. It is the only time I have ever >used a collar on one of my dogs and I feel confident that I made the right >decision given the circumstances, but still wish I could have avoided it. > >I hope list members find these comments of interest. > >Sincerely, >Patricia McConnell -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) Animal Behavior Clinic Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 216/826-0013 Fax: 234-3407 From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 22-SEP-1996 04:41:41.80 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: shock collar rating. My guess (feel free to correct me if I'm wrong) for the scores of some people on this list are as follows: James S. - 0 Glynne A. - 0 Jon W. - 1 Patricia M. - 1-2 Mark P. - 2-4 Robin W. - 2-4 Matthijs S. - 2-4 Marilyn F. - 3-4 By the way, in dog training circles folks that score in the 0-4 range are called "cookie pushers" and folks that score in the 6-10 range are considered by those in the 0-4 range to be unnecessarily harsh. I would also say (although somewhat hesitantly) that a person with any score can be a "successful" trainer. Hi Mark Thanks for the rating above re. Glynne A. = 0 and for your invitation to correct you if you are wrong! Well sorry about this but you are actually quite wrong in my case! Couple of points I'd like to make first: When making a judgement/diagnosis etc.(with respect) perhaps we should be more holistic in our approach? Maybe asking more questions first like; Describe the collar, How many volts? Why did you use it? What was your motive? When did you use it? How often? What were your results? Describe the dog etc. etc.? Maybe our "belief systems" are not always that reliable? I believe the choice we make to agree or not to agree about shock collars is unimportant. Because I think at the end of the day there is no right and no wrong but a deal beween you, your dog, your conscience and your integrity. Lastly, I would like to thank all of the folks involved in this thread for the intellectually stimulating discussion. I add my thanks as well. Oh, by the way Mark I rate myself 0 - 4! (Horses for courses.) Regards to all GLYNNE ANDERSON k9acad@iafrica.com From: IN%"pbmcconn@facstaff.wisc.edu" 22-SEP-1996 10:45:41.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: reinf A few more comments regarding this interesting discussion of reinforcements vs punishments: I want to add my support to the argument that although positive reinforcements are an excellent way to shape behavior, animals need boundaries (as mentioned by Cameron). I too see many "out of control" dogs that appear to be desperate until provided boundaries. An interesting issue to me is how one provides those boundaries, and how much punishment is required to do that. I always err on the side of positives on my radio show, because I think the mis-use of punishment causes so many aggression problems, and because it seems to be the default, but ineffective, response of most people --- get angry at your dog because it won't do what you say. They, yell, hit, etc etc, when half the time the poor beast doesn't have a clue what is wanted. But I totally agree that boundaries are important, not just for obedience but for happy dogs (and cats and horses and parrots children ......). I think boundaries can be provided by many ways that don't include PHYSICAL punishments --- I am especially fond of what I call "body blocks", where the owner learns to control the SPACE around the dog, rather than the behavior of the dog itself. We use small, subtle but I think effective visual signals (I learned these from Border collies) that effectively control an individual's movement in space and thus provide boundaries. This advice is not new in that it tells people to have their dog down/stay alot, not barge through doors, etc. It does use another method of achieving it though, which I have found very useful. Other levels of boundaries that could also be defined as punishments are gruff voices, remote corrections, etc. Basically, I expect that most of us would agree that >physical< corrections that inflict physical discomfort should be used last, for a variety of reasons: For welfare and well-being reasons, for the fact that they often don't work and because they often elicit defensive aggression. But I do think they are required, effective and not cruel in >some< cases. They are also done well only by well trained people, don't you think? Hey, Mark, does that make me a 1-2? Got me, I've never been quantified before, but I suspect it depends on how you define punishment. If a gruff voice is a punishment to a Border collie (as Robin Walker suggested to me, and I completely agree), then I guess I'm more like a 2-3. And add my thanks for this constructive discussion. I'd send positive reinforcements along, but I don't know what treats you all like or if you'd rather go run chase a tennis ball or work sheep. When I figure out how to send lobster bits or woolly lambs or soccer balls through cyberspace you'll all be the first to know. Patricia From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 22-SEP-1996 17:54:18.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: reinf In a message dated 96-09-22 13:52:59 EDT, you write: >I want to add my support to the argument that although positive >reinforcements are an excellent way to shape behavior, animals need >boundaries Of course. The first time your dog tries to take your sandwich off your plate, he experiences a boundary. Cheers, Margie From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 23-SEP-1996 04:17:13.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Hyperactivity in dogs. -Reply Reply to message from robin@coape.win-uk.net of Fri, 20 Sep > >> >> I would like to second the above comments and add one of my own. >>In my experience, most dogs that owners see as hyperactive are this way >>because of hyperstimulation from the owners in the form of excessive >>positive (talk, strokes, playing) input, and/or excessive negative >>(mostly, loud, ineffective verbal correction) input. > > >Absolutely right! > >Nothing confirms your theory so thoroughly as the shrieking, >palpitating, scrabbling, demented toy and miniature poodles of >1960's Britain. Pampered to a jelly of opioids and evacuating all >orifices maximally if deprived or frustrated for a few seconds! As >classic a picture of "withdrawal" panic as could be imagined! {It >was amongst these dogs that I saw my first cases of partial complex >seizures induced by frustration.] Actually, the cases I see tend to be large breeds, especially labs and lab crosses, with a sprinkling of medium sizes. Perhaps the hyperactive small breed owners can stand their dogs better because they are small. -- DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) Animal Behavior Clinic Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 216/826-0013 Fax: 234-3407 From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 23-SEP-1996 07:03:01.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Heli Castren We have just learnt that Heli Castren from Finland died a few days ago. She was one of the nicest human beings I ever met. The world is unfair. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"arowan@OPAL.TUFTS.EDU" 23-SEP-1996 09:37:49.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Shock Collars The comments on this topic are a fascinating insight into the human-animal interaction. For what it is worth, I had the task of developing a digest of behaviorist language and findings for trainers as an element in the Delta Society's development of a curriculum for service/assistance dog programs. We had a behavioral scientist develop a basic primer on operant conditioning and other training approaches and then sat down with a committee of "experts" including actual trsainers to convert the material into dog-trainer-friendly prose. During the process, it became clear that we would have continuing problems with the behaviorist term "punishment". Therefore, I started to describe punishers and punishment using the terms "attenuators" and attenuation" (a logical extension from reinforcement, I thought). This addressed the baggage that comes with the term "punishment". I also specifically asked what regimen of positive and negative stimuli produced the best results in terms of speed of training and resistance to extinction and was told that a mixed system using unscheduled stimuli produced the best results. Members of the list may also be interested in tarcking down an article by Tim Clutton-Brock and coauthors in Nature (last year, I believe) in which they looked at the use of punishment as a behavior modification approach in a troop of baboons (if I remember correctly). The whole exercise was very educational (for me) but I fear that our 70-page report did not manage to convert behaviorist findings and language into a text that was accessible to trainers. If you want a copy, please do not contact me. The Delta Society in Renton, WA should have extra copies for a price. They can be reached at deltasociety@cis.compuserve.com (I am not sure if I deciphered the CIS portion correctly - it may also be GIS or CI5). They also have a web page at http://petsforum.com/deltasociety/ Andrew Rowan Andrew N Rowan Director Tufts Center for Animals and Public Policy School of Veterinary Medicine 200 Westboro Rd N. Grafton, MA 01536 Phone: (508) 839 7991; Fax: (508) 839 2953 Email: arowan@opal.tufts.edu From: IN%"jon.cooper@zoology.oxford.ac.uk" 23-SEP-1996 10:59:52.60 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Can anyone confirm or deny the rumour that the Animal Choises meeting in Leeds last week has taken the place of the annual winter meeting, that would heve normally precede the ASAB winter meeting in London? JC Jonathan Cooper Animal Behaviour Research Group Department of Zoology South Parks Rd. Oxford OX1 3PS U.K. Tel 01865 271288 Fax 01865 310447 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 24-SEP-1996 09:53:13.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: "Gripping" and "Butting" I can report that Dr. Patricia and and I are firm friends..we have had a little chat in a corner of the field and this is what happened.. Trisha is (as you all know) an honorary sheepdog! Spotting me (as she thought) havering half in and half out of the debate pen, she "ran in" and "gripped" my wooly backside. What she did not know was that my birthday is 4th April and a mouthful of very annoyed Aries is a sheep dog's nightmare. I did butt her..and I am sorry. We both feel a little...well..."sheepish" seems the word! Invincible ploys Amongst the ammunition of debate us "cookie pushers" have used the example of the "hearing dog" or the "support/assistance dog" to point up the miracles that are achieved by exclusive reward training. These dogs can astonish with the alacrity with which they lead a deaf owner to as many as seven sound signal sources, ranging from cooker timer to door-bell. The suport dogs delight us by "handing up" articles dropped from chair or bed; bringing the phone; taking laundry out of the spin dryer and putting it in a basket; entering the Post Office and queuing up to the counter with the "pension book" in the mouth; diving into the bath and pulling out the plug if the owner goes into seizure! A tribute to the best side of dogginess and SCHRAPNEL to the massed thumpers and jerkers! BUT! Looking carefully at what Dr. Cameron said and what we at COAPE say in our seminars, a dog (or child) must learn to endure non-rewards in equal measure to (positive) rewards. The worst of creatures can be the totally cossetted handreared kitten or puppy. Many a veterinary nurse has intently, lovingly and patiently created an shrieking, spiting mess of frustration and untrainability. The process of weaning and maternal pre-occupation on occasions, teaches the offspring the necessary coping skills of signalled rewards and deferred gratifications. As did "nanny" and the "dinner gong". Built into the reward trained assistance dog is (apart from a careful selection process a priori) the limited and spaced owner re-inforcement imposed by the very disabilities that have led to the employment. "Combat" training. Three thousand years of coercing men to fight, in the face of their natural inclinations for escape or avoidance, has led a handful of observations that hold good in any age. Men will fight best in tightly formed groups. Weapons are more likely to be discharged if manned by two or three men (or more). Drill can sensitize men to perform unthinking instrumental responses on receipt of conditioned signals such as the command or the bugle. Overall the presence of alpha figures, who show no fear and hold subordinates in awe, is essential. Having solved the first problem with the phalanx or the infantry "square" it was soon discovered that such troops performed very badly, or were helpless if they were not formed up in such a way and instructed by serial commands at every turn. They lacked initiative! Encouraging independence and dispersing troops into open-order revealed (in WWII) that only 15 to 30% of men fired their weapons! [this was revealed by american research of a typically candid and open type. Most military cultures show a preference for being castrated with blunt spoons rather than the admission of such a failure in machismo]. Modern combat teams are tightly knit,and ferociously trained to induce emotional and physical toughness. The close proximity of the centurion, regimental sergeant major or Caesar in his red cloak, has been replaced by the little radio in the soldier's ear. The alpha figure is now attached to the collar and commands proximally although far away! So it goes with dog training? The command must inspire a degree of awe in the face of aversive duties? Over direction can detroy the ability to use canine intelligence in problem solving? When remote from the alpha handler the dog's obedience may decline but not perhaps if he or she (the handler) is attached to the collar and able to command by a transmitted signal? I am in receipt of some very interesting material from Marilyn Fender and I am going to study it non-judgmentally. Early ideas forming in my mind are that the use of shock by cerebral and obviously caring folk is now in the realms of partial reinforcement/punishment schedules where the "nick" may well have become a signal of sucess or even safety. I think I see a process of emotional toughening or stress immunization where the wearing of a collar is as much a conditioned evoker of associative analgesia as the boxer donning his gloves, or in the case of addictive biochemistry the addict seeing his or her paraphenalia of drug abuse. If I as a "cookie pusher" wish to convert those who use shock signals, then I think I must explore the means of transmitting alternative conditional sound signals instituted by frustrative non-rewarding punishment methods which have the necessary force of "awe" to activate the behavioral inhibition system of a dog. and to follow this signal with a second for direction and possibly a third which sigifies "sucess" I am learning steadily in this debate and I too am very grateful for all who have written in and also of course to those who have refrained from asking us to stop! Robin Walker From: IN%"102234.510@CompuServe.COM" "Sabine Braun" 24-SEP-1996 09:53:20.39 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology network" CC: Subj: Appl. Etho congress - Freiburg 11/96 Dear all, the 28th International DVG Conference in Applied Ethology will take place from the 7th to 9th of November 1996 at the 'Historisches Kaufhaus' am Munsterplatz in Freiburg, Germany The programme contains the following theatre presentations - each of 30, resp. 50 minutes including the discussion. A number of papers will be given in english language. Discussions will be in both german and english language. Scientific Programme Thursday, 7. November 9.00 - 18.30 Opening welcome through Minister GERDI STAIBLIN, Ministry of rural areas in Baden-Wurtemberg Session: Individuum in der Gruppe G. ANZENBERGER, CH-Zuerich Der Artgenosse als soziale Umwelt (Einfuhrungsreferat - opening lecture) T. SCHLEYER, Berlin Untersuchungen zum Einflus des Kaelberaufzuchtverfahrens auf die Ontogenese des Sozialverhaltens heranwachsender Rinder Session: Wahrnehmung/Kommunikation K.M. KENDRICK, UK - Cambridge Animal communication with specicic emphasis on neurophysiological aspects, cognition and sensory capacities (Einfuhrungsreferat - opening lecture) H. CAANITZ, Freiburg Ausdrucksverhalten von Pferden und Interaktionen zwischen Pferd und Reiter zu Beginn der Ausbildung J. SCHMID, Freiburg Ausdrucksverhalten des Asiatischen Elefanten (Elephas maximus) D. FEDDERSEN-PETERSEN, Kiel Ist Bellen fur Haushunde kommunikativ ? H. FRANZ, Dummerstorf Visuelle und aktustische Wahrnehmung von schwarzbunten Kalbern und ihr Lernverhalten bei Einzel- bzw. Gruppenhaltung J. KORFF, Trenthorst Analyse der Bedeutung der unterschiedlichen sinnesphysiologischen Funktionsbereiche in der Mensch-Tier-Interaktion Award of the Schweisfurth-Researchfond for Animal Welfare in Farm Animals Festvortrag: U. GUZZONI Tier-Blicke - Begegnungen des Menschen mit sich und dem Anderen Friday, 8. November 09.00 - 18.30 Session: Wildtier/Haustier E. VON BORELL, Halle Verhaltensphyiologische Charakterisierung verschiedener Fangmethoden beim Damwild aus dem Gehege C. KUENZL, Muenster Verhaltensbiologische Untersuchungen zur Domestikation des Merrschweinchens U. BAROW, Goettingen Untersuchungen zur automatisierten Verhaltenserfassung bei Mutterkuehen in ganzjaehriger Ausenhaltung K.M. SCHEIBE, Berlom Przewalskipferde in einem Semireservat - Verhaltensuntersuchungen zur Vorbereitung einer Auswilderung Session: Free Communications M. GERKEN, Goettingen Verhalten von Trabrennpferden in Gruppenauslaufhaltung und in Einzelhaltung F. MULKENS, B - Leuven Social status and fear of humans in gilts B. PETERCORD, Vechta Vergleich unterschiedlicher Laufbuchten fur die Einzelahtlung saeugender Sauen unter besonderer Beruecksichtigung des Angebots von Stroh in Raufen G. RIEBE, Kiel Vergleich des Verhaltens tragender Sauen bei der Abruffuetterung bzw. simultaner Futterzuteilung durch Dribbelfuetterung J.I. BEHRENDS, UK - Bedford Der Einflus von vertikalen Schwingungen auf Transportern auf das Verhalten von Masthuehnern T. SOMMER, CH - Bern Entwicklungen in der Legehennenhaltung (Videofilm) DVG-business meeting Social evening at 'Groser Meyerhof', Freiburg, Gruendwaelderstr. 1-7, Tel.: 0761/22552 Saturday, 9. November 09.00 - 12.15 C. SCHMIDT, Munster Auswirkungen unterschiedlicher Futterverteilung auf das Verhalten und Streshormonkonzentrationen von Breitmaulnashoernern (Ceratotherium simum simum) im Allwetterzoo Muenster N. SIARD, SLO - Ljubljana Correlation between plasma and salivary cortisol in growing pigs H.H. SAMBRAUS, Munchen Futterwerfen bei weiblichen Rindern in Abhaengigkeit von Haltungssystem und Rasse A. SUNDRUM, Bonn Zur Beurteilung fuetterungs- und hitzebedingter Belastungszustaende beim Rind NN, Final Observation *************************************************************************** DEADLINE FOR REGISTRATION is 10-Oct-1996 *************************************************************************** For all who are arriving on wednesday: there is a welcome event which is beginning at 20.00 at 'Grosser Meyerhof' in Freiburg, Gruenwaelderstr. 1-7, Tel. 07611-22552 For more information, please contact: Mrs. K. Milatz Fachgruppe Verhaltensforschung Am Moosweiler 2 79108 Freiburg Tel.: 0761-1502 288 FAX: 0761-1502 299 Room reservations are may be ordered at 'Freiburg Wirtschaft und Touristik GmbH' Postfach 1549 79015 Freiburg FAX 0761-3881-857 ******************************************************** Sabine Van den Weghe Kuratorium fuer Techik und Bauwesen in der Landwirtschaft Bartningstr. 49 D- 64289 Darmstadt Tel.: 06151-7001-149 FAX: 06151-7001-123 email: 102242,510@compuserve.com From: IN%"J.Eddison@plymouth.ac.uk" "J Eddison" 24-SEP-1996 09:54:15.30 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: UK & Ireland regional meeting In reply to Jonathan Cooper's enquiry, I can confirm that there will not be an ISAE regional meeting immediately prior to the ASAB winter meeting in London this year. John Eddison ISAE Communications Officer Date: Mon, 23 Sep 1996 17:58:30 +0100 (BST) From: jon.cooper@zoology.oxford.ac.uk (Jonathan Cooper) Subject: To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Can anyone confirm or deny the rumour that the Animal Choises meeting in Leeds last week has taken the place of the annual winter meeting, that would heve normally precede the ASAB winter meeting in London? JC Jonathan Cooper Animal Behaviour Research Group Department of Zoology South Parks Rd. Oxford OX1 3PS U.K. Tel 01865 271288 Fax 01865 310447 From: IN%"fender@vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu" "Marilyn J. Fender" 24-SEP-1996 11:01:02.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: reinforcement,aversives and other issues Have been watching the responses regarding reinforcement, aversives, and other issues in training dogs over the last few weeks -- which apparently all began with my mention of the word "e-collar". A few comments I would like to add follow: Regarding Mark P's rating scale of who might be using what level of enforcement. I appreciate his effort at trying to take a more academic rather than emotional approach. However, I think that it is difficult to quantify the way he did for the following reasons: 1) Whether reinforcement or correction is "good or bad" has much to do with actions are taken by the trainer. Too many cookies can create as poor a learning situation as unfair corrections. The "darker side of reinforcement" did a nice job of describing the potential problems of indiscriminate reinforcement. Unfair corrections are described in all those horror stories about choke chains or e-collars being used wrong. Both the words "choke chain" or "e-collar" provoke emotional nightmare in the heads of many who are involved in training. However in reality, it is how the cookies are used or how the various collars are used that make the difference. Judgements should not be made regarding unless one can observe the situation and see what the actual interaction is. So it is difficult to quantify anyone based on a couple of posts... or assumptions. 2) So perhaps the arguments from some might be...since choke chains or e-collars CAN be used wrong...then BAN them. If we took this point of view, then we would also have to ban the following: - voices since a harsh voice used consistently wrong and abusively can really damage some dogs; - human feet since while they can be useful, they can seriously damage a dog with kicking; - promise halter/collars since some dogs really panic with the use of them; heeling sticks since while they can guide and prompt a dog, they can be used to beat a dog; leashes since some dogs practically choke themselves on leashes even with wide web collars; - etc etc... I think you get my point. It is not the tool but the human behind the tool that makes it good or bad from the dog's point of view. And then we can consider all the other possible problems a poor dog can run into due to human neglect such as malnutrition, lack of protective shots, puppies every heat cycle, lack of proper shelter from weather...etc etc... Perhaps people ought to be licensed before they get to own a dog... Again however it is the people who are the problem and education the issue. 3) Regarding aversives specifically in Mark's scale: Depending on the situation, various levels of positive reinforcement or aversives (want to stay out of the negative reinforcement or punishment arguments at this point) might be appropriate. With a puppy under about 4 months... life is basically learning by positive reinforcement with very little correction of any type. At the other end, a fully trained dog rarely needs corrections either. In between the two ends... there are some appropriate places for aversives depending on the situation. Let's not forget other issues such as timing of praise or aversives within a single incident also...but that would make a too long post really too long. Timing is a key issue..but won't be discussed here. 4) In between the young pup and the fully trained dog above, you are working with: Acquisition of new skills (education of the dog in new skills where there are little or no aversives-- often but not always built on prior learning in the curriculum sequence) , Fluency development (increasing automatic response levels and percent of accuracy), Generalization (using new skills in a variety of settings with a variety of distractions), and Maintenance (checking to see that the skills are maintained over time). These four areas have many principles built within them that make each level effective. Each level is necessary before going on to the next level and when we move too fast up the levels (asking for generalization when fluency has not yet been achieved might be an example)...the dog often gets into problems (but it is the handlers fault, not the dog's fault). Decisions regarding use of aversives (what kind, how much) within them depends on the specific interaction between handler and dog. 5) Corrections (aversives) of any type should not be given for a dog making a mistake or misunderstanding. If a dog simply makes a mistake or doesn't understand, then it is up to the handler to teach and clarify. Aversives (of varying levels and kinds) should only be used when the dog clearly knows what to do and doesn't for some reason. The handler needs to examine the situation very carefully to see what is appropriate. Many handlers make mistakes at this point... and that is where aversives become unfair, no matter how light or how heavy. Again, it isn't the tool, but the use of the tool (when and how and how much) that matters. And judgements cannot be made as to appropriateness unless one actually sees the situation and understands what the interaction is. So in SUMMARY... the real issue is fairness and appropriateness... and the scale Mark put together doesn't reflect that. As I said it was a good start to begin to look at the arguments academically rather than emotionally..and I thank Mark for that. But the real issue is much more complex and FAIRNESS is what is important. As a side note.. one possible judgement level as to whether a dog is being treated fairly is how it behaves when it realizes a "training lesson" is about to begin. Does the dog dive toward you with tail wagging and joy... or do the dog's ears go back and their attitude go down. If your dog is the first (can hardly wait to train -- be educated)..and you are indeed progressing through complex training exercises (not just cookies and fun)... then it might be one judgement, at least from the dog's point of view, as to whether your training is "fair". Looking forward to the discussion continuing. Marilyn J. Fender, PhD Professor of Special Education From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 24-SEP-1996 12:59:57.58 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: "gripping and butting" I can report that Dr. Patricia and and I are firm friends..we have had a little chat in a corner of the field and this is what happened.. Trisha is (as you all know) an honorary sheepdog! Spotting me (as she thought) havering half in and half out of the debate pen, she "ran in" and "gripped" my wooly backside. What she did not know was that my birthday is 4th April and a mouthful of very annoyed Aries is a sheep dog's nightmare. I did butt her..and I am sorry. We both feel a little...well..."sheepish" seems the word! Invincible ploys Amongst the ammunition of debate us "cookie pushers" have used the example of the "hearing dog" or the "support/assistance dog" to point up the miracles that are achieved by exclusive reward training. These dogs can astonish with the alacrity with which they lead a deaf owner to as many as seven sound signal sources, ranging from cooker timer to door-bell. The suport dogs delight us by "handing up" articles dropped from chair or bed; bringing the phone; taking laundry out of the spin dryer and putting it in a basket; entering the Post Office and queuing up to the counter with the "pension book" in the mouth; diving into the bath and pulling out the plug if the owner goes into seizure! A tribute to the best side of dogginess and SCHRAPNEL to the massed thumpers and jerkers! BUT! Looking carefully at what Dr. Cameron said and what we at COAPE say in our seminars, a dog (or child) must learn to endure non-rewards in equal measure to (positive) rewards. The worst of creatures can be the totally cossetted handreared kitten or puppy. Many a veterinary nurse has intently, lovingly and patiently created an shrieking, spiting mess of frustration and untrainability. The process of weaning and maternal pre-occupation on occasions, teaches the offspring the necessary coping skills of signalled rewards and deferred gratifications. As did "nanny" and the "dinner gong". Built into the reward trained assistance dog is (apart from a careful selection process a priori) the limited and spaced owner re-inforcement imposed by the very disabilities that have led to the employment. "Combat" training. Three thousand years of coercing men to fight, in the face of their natural inclinations for escape or avoidance, has led a handful of observations that hold good in any age. Men will fight best in tightly formed groups. Weapons are more likely to be discharged if manned by two or three men (or more). Drill can sensitize men to perform unthinking instrumental responses on receipt of conditioned signals such as the command or the bugle. Overall the presence of alpha figures, who show no fear and hold subordinates in awe, is essential. Having solved the first problem with the phalanx or the infantry "square" it was soon discovered that such troops performed very badly, or were helpless if they were not formed up in such a way and instructed by serial commands at every turn. They lacked initiative! Encouraging independence and dispersing troops into open-order revealed (in WWII) that only 15 to 30% of men fired their weapons! [this was revealed by american research of a typically candid and open type. Most military cultures show a preference for being castrated with blunt spoons rather than the admission of such a failure in machismo]. Modern combat teams are tightly knit,and ferociously trained to induce emotional and physical toughness. The close proximity of the centurion, regimental sergeant major or Caesar in his red cloak, has been replaced by the little radio in the soldier's ear. The alpha figure is now attached to the collar and commands proximally although far away! So it goes with dog training? The command must inspire a degree of awe in the face of aversive duties? Over direction can detroy the ability to use canine intelligence in problem solving? When remote from the alpha handler the dog's obedience may decline but not perhaps if he or she (the handler) is attached to the collar and able to command by a transmitted signal? I am in receipt of some very interesting material from Marilyn Fender and I am going to study it non-judgmentally. Early ideas forming in my mind are that the use of shock by cerebral and obviously caring folk is now in the realms of partial reinforcement/punishment schedules where the "nick" may well have become a signal of sucess or even safety. I think I see a process of emotional toughening or stress immunization where the wearing of a collar is as much a conditioned evoker of associative analgesia as the boxer donning his gloves, or in the case of addictive biochemistry the addict seeing his or her paraphenalia of drug abuse. If I as a "cookie pusher" wish to convert those who use shock signals, then I think I must explore the means of transmitting alternative conditional sound signals instituted by frustrative non-rewarding punishment methods which have the necessary force of "awe" to activate the behavioral inhibition system of a dog. and to follow this signal with a second for direction and possibly a third which sigifies "sucess" I am learning steadily in this debate and I too am very grateful for all who have written in and also of course to those who have refrained from asking us to stop! Robin Walker From: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" 24-SEP-1996 13:28:07.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Shock Collars and horse bits.... First I would like to say that I find the philosophical discussion on shock collars both very interesting and informative. It has caused me to recall a statement made by a friend of mine who had just started horseback riding. He said "I'll put up with controlling a horse by using a bit for now....but when I buy my own horse, I will refuse to use a bridal with a bit..." I thought he was crazy at the time... But after reading the letters of those participating in the shock collar discussion, I thought, some of the arguments being used to support the idea that shock collars shouldn't be used in dog training, might equally apply to the use of bridal bits in horseback riding... 1) Do you think it is cruel to train a horse using a bit in its mouth? 2) Are there other ways of training a horse that might be considered more humaine? 3) Are these techniques effective? I would like to hear your ideas on this topic! Chantal Gaboury gabouryc@em.agr.ca From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 24-SEP-1996 15:29:12.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Sharpening pups Roman style I have found an interesting little passage in Marcus Varro, Rerum Rusticarum, Book II, ix. 12. Written around 36 B.C a passage on the rearing of dogs runs as follows:- [Talking of eight week old shepherding dogs.] "Educunt eos plures in unum locum et inritant ad pugnandum, quo fiant acriores, neque defatigari patiuntur, quo fiunt segniores." The Loeb edition of 1935 gives this as "several of them are driven into one place and teased to make them fight, so as to make them more keen; but they are not allowed to tire themselves out, as this makes them sluggish." The translation is straightforward enough, the interest lies in what the Roman observers were decribing. Keeness, eagerness, spiritednes were the virtues hoped for. They had discovered that a different result could be acheived. I wonder if this passage in fact describes what is sometimes called "learned helplessness". The overtaxed puppies simply becoming cowed through achieving no escape from the aversive experience of defensive aggression and therefore no reward and consequently no learning of success. Just a thought! From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 24-SEP-1996 17:22:35.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"dairy-l@umdd.umd.edu" CC: Subj: Nordic "ecological"milk Does anyone have any firm data (or firmish data) showing what percentage of milk sold in any of the Nordic countries is "ecological milk"? Could someone please tell me the relative price of "ecological" and "unecological"(?) milk in the shops in any of the Nordic countries? Thanks in advance Jeff Rushen rushenj@em.agr.ca From: IN%"naoabe@agr.tamagawa.ac.jp" 24-SEP-1996 22:20:41.72 To: IN%"102234.510@CompuServe.COM" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"naoabe@agr.tamagawa.ac.jp" Subj: RE: Appl. Etho congress - Freiburg 11/96 Vielen Dank fur Ihre mail . Ich have mit grossen Interesse gelesen. Ich mochte mit der Versamrung teilnehmen, aber es ist zu weit von mir. Leider kan ich nicht in diesem jahr gehen. Ubrigens ich kenne Herr Dr.Sambraus. Konnten Sie mir die "mail adress" von ihm wissen? Mit freundrich Grusse! P.S Mein Fach ist "Eine gute beziehung zwischen Nutztiere und Personen" Wenn Sie Interesse haben ,mochte etwas von Ihnen wissen. ================================================================ Naoshige Abe Experimental Livestockfarm (( )) Faculty of Agriculture (( )) Tamagawa University Machida, Tokyo 194 ///----------/// JAPAN ///| |/// E-Mail naoabe@agr.tamagawa.ac.jp |@ @| Phone +81 427 39 8296 | | Facsimile +81 427 39 8854 | | EE ================================================================ From: IN%"Nabil.Brandl@oldmail.SH.DK" "Nabil Brandl" 25-SEP-1996 00:45:56.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@SASK.USASK.CA'" CC: Subj: effect of legs problems on pigs' activity Hi everybody I am doing research on measuring activity "movement" on dwarf contra normal pigs using image analysis. The dwarf pigs have legs problems, which affect their movement. Have anyone a previous works or references concering legs problem and activity in pigs? I will be appreciate to have some references. Thanks Nabil Brandl The Danish Institute of Animal Science Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Research Center Foulum P.O. 39 DK-8830 Tjele Denmark Call: 45-89991342 Fax: 45-89991500 HomePage: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil From: IN%"jensr@mi.aau.dk" "jensr" 25-SEP-1996 05:19:01.31 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"dairy-l@umdd.umd.edu", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Nordic "ecological"milk On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Jeff Rushen wrote: > Does anyone have any firm data (or firmish data) showing what > percentage of milk sold in any of the Nordic countries is "ecological milk"? > > Could someone please tell me the relative price of "ecological" and > "unecological"(?) milk in the shops in any of the Nordic countries? > > Thanks in advance > > Jeff Rushen > rushenj@em.agr.ca > In Denmark the price of ecological milk ranges from 8-12 kroners= 1,3-2$, and the price for "regular" milk is approximately 5 kroner= a bit less than 1$. Surveys have shown that some supermarkets can't keep up with the demand for ecological milk. Jens Rasmussen University of Aarhus From: IN%"jensr@mi.aau.dk" "jensr" 25-SEP-1996 05:19:06.90 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"dairy-l@umdd.umd.edu", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Nordic "ecological"milk On Tue, 24 Sep 1996, Jeff Rushen wrote: > Does anyone have any firm data (or firmish data) showing what > percentage of milk sold in any of the Nordic countries is "ecological milk"? > > Could someone please tell me the relative price of "ecological" and > "unecological"(?) milk in the shops in any of the Nordic countries? > > Thanks in advance > > Jeff Rushen > rushenj@em.agr.ca > In Denmark the price of ecological milk ranges from 8-12 kroners= 1,3-2$, and the price for "regular" milk is approximately 5 kroner= a bit less than 1$. Surveys have shown that some supermarkets can't keep up with the demand for ecological milk. Jens Rasmussen University of Aarhus From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@nlh10.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" 25-SEP-1996 07:52:59.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Nordic "ecological"milk Dear Jeff, and others interested, In Norway "ecological milk" is sold only in some areas. In these areas the ecological milk covers about 1-2% of the milk market. The demand is larger, so this rather new type of milk in Norway is not able to satisfy the market needs. The production of ecological milk increases slowly, partly due to the strict rules for this type of production. In Norway as a whole the market fraction is far below 1 %. Whereas normal milk costs about NOK 8.50 (= US$ 1.35) per liter, the ecological milk costs about NOK 12 (=US$ 1.90). Both these types have reduced fat content ("light milk"). Best wishes, Bjarne Bjarne O. Braastad Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 From: IN%"fender@vaxa.cis.uwosh.edu" "Marilyn J. Fender" 25-SEP-1996 15:42:44.29 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: reinforcement,aversives, and other issues This is my second try at sending this to the line. The first time was about 36 hours ago and nothing happened...so please excuse if this comes twice. ---------------- Have been watching the responses regarding reinforcement, aversives, and other issues in training dogs over the last few weeks -- which apparently all began with my mention of the word "e-collar". A few comments I would like to add follow: Regarding Mark P's rating scale of who might be using what level of enforcement. I appreciate his effort at trying to take a more academic rather than emotional approach. However, I think that it is difficult to quantify the way he did for the following reasons: 1) Whether reinforcement or correction is "good or bad" has much to do with actions are taken by the trainer. Too many cookies can create as poor a learning situation as unfair corrections. The "darker side of reinforcement" did a nice job of describing the potential problems of indiscriminate reinforcement. Unfair corrections are described in all those horror stories about choke chains or e-collars being used wrong. Both the words "choke chain" or "e-collar" provoke emotional nightmare in the heads of many who are involved in training. However in reality, it is how the cookies are used or how the various collars are used that make the difference. Judgements should not be made regarding unless one can observe the situation and see what the actual interaction is. So it is difficult to quantify anyone based on a couple of posts... or assumptions. 2) So perhaps the arguments from some might be...since choke chains or e-collars CAN be used wrong...then BAN them. If we took this point of view, then we would also have to ban the following: - voices since a harsh voice used consistently wrong and abusively can really damage some dogs; - human feet since while they can be useful, they can seriously damage a dog with kicking; - promise halter/collars since some dogs really panic with the use of them; heeling sticks since while they can guide and prompt a dog, they can be used to beat a dog; leashes since some dogs practically choke themselves on leashes even with wide web collars; - etc etc... I think you get my point. It is not the tool but the human behind the tool that makes it good or bad from the dog's point of view. And then we can consider all the other possible problems a poor dog can run into due to human neglect such as malnutrition, lack of protective shots, puppies every heat cycle, lack of proper shelter from weather...etc etc... Perhaps people ought to be licensed before they get to own a dog... Again however it is the people who are the problem and education the issue. 3) Regarding aversives specifically in Mark's scale: Depending on the situation, various levels of positive reinforcement or aversives (want to stay out of the negative reinforcement or punishment arguments at this point) might be appropriate. With a puppy under about 4 months... life is basically learning by positive reinforcement with very little correction of any type. At the other end, a fully trained dog rarely needs corrections either. In between the two ends... there are some appropriate places for aversives depending on the situation. Let's not forget other issues such as timing of praise or aversives within a single incident also...but that would make a too long post really too long. Timing is a key issue..but won't be discussed here. 4) In between the young pup and the fully trained dog above, you are working with: Acquisition of new skills (education of the dog in new skills where there are little or no aversives-- often but not always built on prior learning in the curriculum sequence) , Fluency development (increasing automatic response levels and percent of accuracy), Generalization (using new skills in a variety of settings with a variety of distractions), and Maintenance (checking to see that the skills are maintained over time). These four areas have many principles built within them that make each level effective. Each level is necessary before going on to the next level and when we move too fast up the levels (asking for generalization when fluency has not yet been achieved might be an example)...the dog often gets into problems (but it is the handlers fault, not the dog's fault). Decisions regarding use of aversives (what kind, how much) within them depends on the specific interaction between handler and dog. 5) Corrections (aversives) of any type should not be given for a dog making a mistake or misunderstanding. If a dog simply makes a mistake or doesn't understand, then it is up to the handler to teach and clarify. Aversives (of varying levels and kinds) should only be used when the dog clearly knows what to do and doesn't for some reason. The handler needs to examine the situation very carefully to see what is appropriate. Many handlers make mistakes at this point... and that is where aversives become unfair, no matter how light or how heavy. Again, it isn't the tool, but the use of the tool (when and how and how much) that matters. And judgements cannot be made as to appropriateness unless one actually sees the situation and understands what the interaction is. So in SUMMARY... the real issue is fairness and appropriateness... and the scale Mark put together doesn't reflect that. As I said it was a good start to begin to look at the arguments academically rather than emotionally..and I thank Mark for that. But the real issue is much more complex and FAIRNESS is what is important. As a side note.. one possible judgement level as to whether a dog is being treated fairly is how it behaves when it realizes a "training lesson" is about to begin. Does the dog dive toward you with tail wagging and joy... or do the dog's ears go back and their attitude go down. If your dog is the first (can hardly wait to train -- be educated)..and you are indeed progressing through complex training exercises (not just cookies and fun)... then it might be one judgement, at least from the dog's point of view, as to whether your training is "fair". Looking forward to the discussion continuing. Marilyn J. Fender, PhD Professor of Special Education From: IN%"Heeler@aol.com" 25-SEP-1996 17:52:43.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Nordic "ecological"milk I just have to ask. What is "ecological" milk?" If anybody tells me what it is, I'll be happy to provide US prices. Cheers, Margie From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 26-SEP-1996 03:20:47.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hyperactivity/food and behaviour To all the kind people who sent information in response to my request re. the above subject. Your support has been overwhelming. I have also made some extremely valuable contacts which I would never have made without AE... now I know why I spent all my money on internet! I have attempted to thank everyone individually - however if I have missed anyone out (purely by accident) please accept my apology and very grateful thanks. Kind regards GLYNNE ANDERSON k9acad@iafrica.com From: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" 26-SEP-1996 10:18:03.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Shock Collars and horse bits.... -RETRANSMIS Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:27:27 -0400 From: Chantal Gaboury To: applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca Subject: Shock Collars and horse bits.... First I would like to say that I find the philosophical discussion on shock collars both very interesting and informative. It has caused me to recall a statement made by a friend of mine who had just started horseback riding. He said "I'll put up with controlling a horse by using a bit for now....but when I buy my own horse, I will refuse to use a bridal with a bit..." I thought he was crazy at the time... But after reading the letters of those participating in the shock collar discussion, I thought, some of the arguments being used to support the idea that shock collars shouldn't be used in dog training, might equally apply to the use of bridal bits in horseback riding... 1) Do you think it is cruel to train a horse using a bit in its mouth? 2) Are there other ways of training a horse that might be considered more humaine? 3) Are these techniques effective? I would like to hear your ideas on this topic! Chantal Gaboury gabouryc@em.agr.ca From: IN%"amthomps@zebu.cvm.msu.edu" "Aim" 26-SEP-1996 12:13:32.32 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: horse bits I'm new to this group and have been reading your messages with great interest. This is a debate which no one will ever totally agree on. Here's something I think I can say a few words about... I've ridden and shown horses for over 10 years and I'm currently in vet school. The question of what is humane and what is inhumane has come up over many different topics, and I've come to the conclusion that this is something one must decide for themselves. Anyway, to respond to the questions about horse bits... My instructor used to say, as has been said in earlier postings, that the bit is only as harmful as the hands holding the reins. Likewise, I'm sure, with shock collars. Anyway... Is it cruel to train a horse with a bit? No, it isn't. In the best possible scenario, only experienced riders will be training horses in the first place. The bit can be used in a harmful way by an inexperienced rider, but a seasoned rider can use it only to the point needed, then release their hold. Are there other ways to train horses and are they more humane? Yes, there are other ways... you can ride a horse with an apparatus on their head which doesn't have a bit. This is just as effective as using a mild bit (it still commands the horse by pinching the nose, though). In some cases this would be considered more humane, but you can end up damaging the horse just as much if you're not careful. There are many different types of bits used for training horses. some are on a level of comparison with a thick nylon collar for a dog... others are like choke chains, and still others may even be compared to shock collars. The mildest bit can be wonderful training tool and does minimal damage to the horse - the best trainers will use the least harmful method to obtain the desired results... With higher levels of training, more severe bits may be required, so... I suppose the answer to your last question about effectiveness is that yes, these methods do work, however they only work to a point and if more advanced work is required of the horse, more advanced training methods will have to be used. I guess I think that someone who wants to train a horse without a bit can only take that horse so far - it will not be in the same class as higher caliber horses. thanks for listening... :) ~Amy From: IN%"fodberg@allserv.rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 26-SEP-1996 12:43:53.89 To: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Shock Collars and horse bits.... -RETRANSMIS When reading the long discussions about the shock-collar I thought somebody might start up the same about horses... There we are. This is a subject which should require a very long explanation, and I don't have time by now. To put it simply: The first question is: what do you want your horse being schooled for? Just hacking? Jumping? High school (I don't like the term "dressage")? Farm work? The general principle is: if you can get your horse to do what you desire with a simple and soft mouthpiece (i.e. a thick snaffle (=filet en francais)) the better. I don't like the obligation to work with bridoon and bit (= mors en francais) in dressage competitions from the St.Georges level on. If one can do it with a snaffle, why not, it proves the tact of that rider. Now, the use of the bridoon-bit should only be to allow the gifted rider to work with even more detailed precision with a very advanced horse and NEVER to use force and pull at the mouth when the horse does not obey. In that case it just shows that the horse was badly schooled in the early stages, usually because the rider did not learn the horse to react to the legs and even better the seat. The so called "sensitivity" of the mouth does not lie in the mouth but in the whole suppleness of the body from mouth to posterior legs. And that one only gets by incurvating gradually the horse around the legs and with the seat (circles, shoulder-in...). The philosophy of the old school of the 18th century is that by making the horse supple gradually without force, sooner or later he will collect himself (carry more his weight by his hindlegs) and bring spontaneously his head more vertically (=ramener) in full lightness. Unfortunately, the majority of people who put their bottom on a horse nowadays (even some olympic riders), do not deserve the name of rider, want to go too quickly and are forcing the "ramener" by pulling on the reins without caring first to get the horse to react in a very sensitive way to the leg. Often, the horse is even resisting with its head up, a hollow back and hindlegs dragging behind. This is very common in jumping competitions. Such people should be eliminated for incompetent riding. Even in dressage competitions the actual trend neglects lightness, beautiful and unconstrained gaits. The "German" (but this is another debate I can't start here) mentality prefers accuracy, extension, but horses performing like mechanical watches often under heavy coercition. This has NOTHING to do with the art of riding. You can find pictures comparing nicely both methods in Diogo de Bragance's "L'Equitation de Tradition francaise". A bit should only be used by contracting the fist and not by pulling. I think a well-used bit is not cruel, but it is often mis-used. So: please do not forbid the use of a bit by the artists; but I hate to see them being used by the majority of" people on a horse" . It's the same with the spurs. Baucher (a French master from the 19th century) cites one of his pupils: "L'eperon, quel rasoir dans les mains d'un singe!" (= the spur is a razor blade in the hands of a monkey"). Spurs can be very useful, but badly used I've seen horrible things happening. Now there are different types, but I don't havbe time to continue this discussion now. (we could also discuss the use of various reins...) The main message is: improve the level of instruction in all riding schools. I am busy in my country lobbying in order to regulate offically the establishment of riding schools. I cannot accept that anybody can just start a school whenever he likes. This creates a tradition of incompetence moving from one generation to the next. The "tricks" many (even well-known riders) use to compensate for their lack of tact (and this includes heavy bits) become the RULE in the eyes of the public. Thanks Chantal, you gave me an opportunity to tell things I want to say since long (= catharsis!), but on the other hand I'm afraid such a debate can be very cumbersome to carry out in a constructive way with people who have not experienced the thing "from within". Regards, Frank Prof.Dr.F.O.Odberg Ghent University Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke (Belgium) tel: +32-9-2521941 fax: 5304 From: IN%"fodberg@allserv.rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 26-SEP-1996 12:44:11.80 To: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Shock Collars and horse bits.... -RETRANSMIS When reading the long discussions about the shock-collar I thought somebody might start up the same about horses... There we are. This is a subject which should require a very long explanation, and I don't have time by now. To put it simply: The first question is: what do you want your horse being schooled for? Just hacking? Jumping? High school (I don't like the term "dressage")? Farm work? The general principle is: if you can get your horse to do what you desire with a simple and soft mouthpiece (i.e. a thick snaffle (=filet en francais)) the better. I don't like the obligation to work with bridoon and bit (= mors en francais) in dressage competitions from the St.Georges level on. If one can do it with a snaffle, why not, it proves the tact of that rider. Now, the use of the bridoon-bit should only be to allow the gifted rider to work with even more detailed precision with a very advanced horse and NEVER to use force and pull at the mouth when the horse does not obey. In that case it just shows that the horse was badly schooled in the early stages, usually because the rider did not learn the horse to react to the legs and even better the seat. The so called "sensitivity" of the mouth does not lie in the mouth but in the whole suppleness of the body from mouth to posterior legs. And that one only gets by incurvating gradually the horse around the legs and with the seat (circles, shoulder-in...). The philosophy of the old school of the 18th century is that by making the horse supple gradually without force, sooner or later he will collect himself (carry more his weight by his hindlegs) and bring spontaneously his head more vertically (=ramener) in full lightness. Unfortunately, the majority of people who put their bottom on a horse nowadays (even some olympic riders), do not deserve the name of rider, want to go too quickly and are forcing the "ramener" by pulling on the reins without caring first to get the horse to react in a very sensitive way to the leg. Often, the horse is even resisting with its head up, a hollow back and hindlegs dragging behind. This is very common in jumping competitions. Such people should be eliminated for incompetent riding. Even in dressage competitions the actual trend neglects lightness, beautiful and unconstrained gaits. The "German" (but this is another debate I can't start here) mentality prefers accuracy, extension, but horses performing like mechanical watches often under heavy coercition. This has NOTHING to do with the art of riding. You can find pictures comparing nicely both methods in Diogo de Bragance's "L'Equitation de Tradition francaise". A bit should only be used by contracting the fist and not by pulling. I think a well-used bit is not cruel, but it is often mis-used. So: please do not forbid the use of a bit by the artists; but I hate to see them being used by the majority of" people on a horse" . It's the same with the spurs. Baucher (a French master from the 19th century) cites one of his pupils: "L'eperon, quel rasoir dans les mains d'un singe!" (= the spur is a razor blade in the hands of a monkey"). Spurs can be very useful, but badly used I've seen horrible things happening. Now there are different types, but I don't havbe time to continue this discussion now. (we could also discuss the use of various reins...) The main message is: improve the level of instruction in all riding schools. I am busy in my country lobbying in order to regulate offically the establishment of riding schools. I cannot accept that anybody can just start a school whenever he likes. This creates a tradition of incompetence moving from one generation to the next. The "tricks" many (even well-known riders) use to compensate for their lack of tact (and this includes heavy bits) become the RULE in the eyes of the public. Thanks Chantal, you gave me an opportunity to tell things I want to say since long (= catharsis!), but on the other hand I'm afraid such a debate can be very cumbersome to carry out in a constructive way with people who have not experienced the thing "from within". Regards, Frank Prof.Dr.F.O.Odberg Ghent University Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke (Belgium) tel: +32-9-2521941 fax: 5304 From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 26-SEP-1996 15:30:40.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: shock collar rating. My rating as a "cookie pusher" is about right. However I'm a lousy animal trainer. I once tried to train some young pigs to do a task by offering bite-size Oreo cookies as a reward. It was a disaster! Perhaps I shoulda just beat the cr*p out of them with a big stick every time they got it wrong......? Jon W ;-) From: IN%"peter.penning@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Peter Penning" 27-SEP-1996 02:36:46.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Horses and bits If horses were not ridden then the discussion about bits would be irrelevant! Peter Penning From: IN%"fodberg@allserv.rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 27-SEP-1996 02:43:08.24 To: IN%"amthomps@zebu.cvm.msu.edu" "Aim" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: horse bits A few quick comments. Frank On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Aim wrote: > I'm new to this group and have been reading your messages with great > interest. This is a debate which no one will ever totally agree on. > Here's something I think I can say a few words about... > I've ridden and shown horses for over 10 years and I'm currently in > vet school. The question of what is humane and what is inhumane has > come up over many different topics, and I've come to the conclusion > that this is something one must decide for themselves. > > Anyway, to respond to the questions about horse bits... > My instructor used to say, as has been said in earlier postings, that > the bit is only as harmful as the hands holding the reins. Likewise, > I fully agree with him. I'm sure, with shock collars. Anyway... > Is it cruel to train a horse with a bit? No, it isn't. In the best > possible scenario, only experienced riders will be training horses > in the first place. The bit can be used in a harmful way by an > inexperienced rider, but a seasoned rider can use it only to the > point needed, then release their hold. > Are there other ways to train horses and are they more humane? Yes, > there are other ways... you can ride a horse with an apparatus on > their head which doesn't have a bit. This is just as effective as > using a mild bit (it still commands the horse by pinching the nose, I now realize Chantal's question might not concern the difference between a bit and a snaffle, but putting something in the mouth altogether. Two remarks: 1. It is possible to control a quite horse to some extent only through conditioning on arbitrary signals. The late Moyra Williams tried it in the 60-ties (cf her book "Riding Unbridled" on her holidays across Britain). As far as I remember she used signals such as pushing with the hand on the right or left side of the withers to tell the horse to turn right or left (NB: nothing to do with the mechanical effect of diagonal reins), but she got some frightening moments although there was less traffic in those days... However, I think one will never be able to make a horse supple that way; it's ok for just sitting on him and pray nothing wrong happens. 2. Some people think it is more humane (or because they hurt the mouth with their hard hands) to replace the snaffle or the bit by a hackamore, which is a type of bit with a strong lever effect but the pressure is exerted externally on the frontal bone and not on the gums between the incisives and the molars. Some well-known jumping riders popularized it. (I presume there is something similar in western riding called bosal, but I'm rather ignorant about that way of schooling. In Spain they still use sometimes a noseband with a seesaw interior, but without lever effect, it's directly linked to the reins. It's used for the initial schooling of young horses, and I've seen it being used also very badly). This might preserve the gums from the hands of very violent riders, but it can hurt the nose. The main point is that it makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL if the horse is not schooled to react at once to a very light leg or seat pressure: the horse will push against the hand anyway, lift it head instead of lowering it, arch his back, etc., as I described yesterday, and behave just as if it was badly ridden with something in the mouth. I think there are more uncollected, resisting, horses wearing a hackamore than with a mouthpiece. Probably because bad riders always seek something else. So, are such systems more humane as such. No, the only solution is to go back to square one and teach well the young rider to use correctly the century-old knowledge (although I agree old knowledge does not mean it is per se right). > though). In some cases this would be considered more humane, but you > can end up damaging the horse just as much if you're not careful. > There are many different types of bits used for training horses. > some are on a level of comparison with a thick nylon collar for a > dog... others are like choke chains, and still others may even be > compared to shock collars. The mildest bit can be wonderful training > tool and does minimal damage to the horse - the best trainers will > use the least harmful method to obtain the desired results... I fully agree. > With higher levels of training, more severe bits may be required, But not to exert force, only to work in a more delicate way. The USEFUL influence of a bit compared to a snaffle does not lie in its stronger power, but in the WAY it works, i.e. the positioning of the horse's head and neck wich influences the balance of the whole body. > so... I suppose the answer to your last question about effectiveness > is that yes, these methods do work, however they only work to a point > and if more advanced work is required of the horse, more advanced > training methods will have to be used. > In fact, bringing a horse correctly to high school relies on very simple principles and techniques. It's just a matter of patience and tact. I like to remember that the philosphy of the high school is to make the horse so supple that its natural gaits become even more beautiful, and nothing more. All high school movements belong to the ethogram of the horse. I long had doubts about the "appuyer" (half-pass in English?) until I saw it happening in the field (there is a nice picture in M.Schaffer's book "Die Sprache des Pferdes"). Some airs above the ground are probably artificial (but they do not belong traditionally to the real high school although many trainers wills do both (Vienna, Jerez, Portugese school of Dr.Borba). > I guess I think that someone who wants to train a horse without a bit > can only take that horse so far - it will not be in the same class as > higher caliber horses. > > thanks for listening... > :) > ~Amy > It was nice meeting you. See you some time on horseback. Frank From: IN%"fodberg@allserv.rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 27-SEP-1996 02:43:13.13 To: IN%"amthomps@zebu.cvm.msu.edu" "Aim" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: horse bits A few quick comments. Frank On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Aim wrote: > I'm new to this group and have been reading your messages with great > interest. This is a debate which no one will ever totally agree on. > Here's something I think I can say a few words about... > I've ridden and shown horses for over 10 years and I'm currently in > vet school. The question of what is humane and what is inhumane has > come up over many different topics, and I've come to the conclusion > that this is something one must decide for themselves. > > Anyway, to respond to the questions about horse bits... > My instructor used to say, as has been said in earlier postings, that > the bit is only as harmful as the hands holding the reins. Likewise, > I fully agree with him. I'm sure, with shock collars. Anyway... > Is it cruel to train a horse with a bit? No, it isn't. In the best > possible scenario, only experienced riders will be training horses > in the first place. The bit can be used in a harmful way by an > inexperienced rider, but a seasoned rider can use it only to the > point needed, then release their hold. > Are there other ways to train horses and are they more humane? Yes, > there are other ways... you can ride a horse with an apparatus on > their head which doesn't have a bit. This is just as effective as > using a mild bit (it still commands the horse by pinching the nose, I now realize Chantal's question might not concern the difference between a bit and a snaffle, but putting something in the mouth altogether. Two remarks: 1. It is possible to control a quite horse to some extent only through conditioning on arbitrary signals. The late Moyra Williams tried it in the 60-ties (cf her book "Riding Unbridled" on her holidays across Britain). As far as I remember she used signals such as pushing with the hand on the right or left side of the withers to tell the horse to turn right or left (NB: nothing to do with the mechanical effect of diagonal reins), but she got some frightening moments although there was less traffic in those days... However, I think one will never be able to make a horse supple that way; it's ok for just sitting on him and pray nothing wrong happens. 2. Some people think it is more humane (or because they hurt the mouth with their hard hands) to replace the snaffle or the bit by a hackamore, which is a type of bit with a strong lever effect but the pressure is exerted externally on the frontal bone and not on the gums between the incisives and the molars. Some well-known jumping riders popularized it. (I presume there is something similar in western riding called bosal, but I'm rather ignorant about that way of schooling. In Spain they still use sometimes a noseband with a seesaw interior, but without lever effect, it's directly linked to the reins. It's used for the initial schooling of young horses, and I've seen it being used also very badly). This might preserve the gums from the hands of very violent riders, but it can hurt the nose. The main point is that it makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL if the horse is not schooled to react at once to a very light leg or seat pressure: the horse will push against the hand anyway, lift it head instead of lowering it, arch his back, etc., as I described yesterday, and behave just as if it was badly ridden with something in the mouth. I think there are more uncollected, resisting, horses wearing a hackamore than with a mouthpiece. Probably because bad riders always seek something else. So, are such systems more humane as such. No, the only solution is to go back to square one and teach well the young rider to use correctly the century-old knowledge (although I agree old knowledge does not mean it is per se right). > though). In some cases this would be considered more humane, but you > can end up damaging the horse just as much if you're not careful. > There are many different types of bits used for training horses. > some are on a level of comparison with a thick nylon collar for a > dog... others are like choke chains, and still others may even be > compared to shock collars. The mildest bit can be wonderful training > tool and does minimal damage to the horse - the best trainers will > use the least harmful method to obtain the desired results... I fully agree. > With higher levels of training, more severe bits may be required, But not to exert force, only to work in a more delicate way. The USEFUL influence of a bit compared to a snaffle does not lie in its stronger power, but in the WAY it works, i.e. the positioning of the horse's head and neck wich influences the balance of the whole body. > so... I suppose the answer to your last question about effectiveness > is that yes, these methods do work, however they only work to a point > and if more advanced work is required of the horse, more advanced > training methods will have to be used. > In fact, bringing a horse correctly to high school relies on very simple principles and techniques. It's just a matter of patience and tact. I like to remember that the philosphy of the high school is to make the horse so supple that its natural gaits become even more beautiful, and nothing more. All high school movements belong to the ethogram of the horse. I long had doubts about the "appuyer" (half-pass in English?) until I saw it happening in the field (there is a nice picture in M.Schaffer's book "Die Sprache des Pferdes"). Some airs above the ground are probably artificial (but they do not belong traditionally to the real high school although many trainers wills do both (Vienna, Jerez, Portugese school of Dr.Borba). > I guess I think that someone who wants to train a horse without a bit > can only take that horse so far - it will not be in the same class as > higher caliber horses. > > thanks for listening... > :) > ~Amy > It was nice meeting you. See you some time on horseback. Frank From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 27-SEP-1996 07:21:19.75 To: IN%"amthomps@zebu.cvm.msu.edu" "Aim" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: horse bits I got a strange message back, so I'm not sure whether this re: was really sent over. I therefore repeat it. Sorry if you eventually got it twice. Frank On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Frank Odberg wrote: > A few quick comments. > Frank > > On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Aim wrote: > > > I'm new to this group and have been reading your messages with great > > interest. This is a debate which no one will ever totally agree on. > > Here's something I think I can say a few words about... > > I've ridden and shown horses for over 10 years and I'm currently in > > vet school. The question of what is humane and what is inhumane has > > come up over many different topics, and I've come to the conclusion > > that this is something one must decide for themselves. > > > > Anyway, to respond to the questions about horse bits... > > My instructor used to say, as has been said in earlier postings, that > > the bit is only as harmful as the hands holding the reins. Likewise, > > > I fully agree with him. > > I'm sure, with shock collars. Anyway... > > Is it cruel to train a horse with a bit? No, it isn't. In the best > > possible scenario, only experienced riders will be training horses > > in the first place. The bit can be used in a harmful way by an > > inexperienced rider, but a seasoned rider can use it only to the > > point needed, then release their hold. > > Are there other ways to train horses and are they more humane? Yes, > > there are other ways... you can ride a horse with an apparatus on > > their head which doesn't have a bit. This is just as effective as > > using a mild bit (it still commands the horse by pinching the nose, > > I now realize Chantal's question might not concern the difference between > a bit and a snaffle, but putting something in the mouth altogether. > Two remarks: > 1. It is possible to control a quite horse to some extent only through > conditioning on arbitrary signals. The late Moyra Williams tried it in the > 60-ties (cf her book "Riding Unbridled" on her holidays across Britain). > As far as I remember she used signals such as pushing with the hand on the > right or left side of the withers to tell the horse to turn right or left > (NB: nothing to do with the mechanical effect of diagonal reins), but she > got some frightening moments although there was less traffic in those > days... However, I think one will never be able to make a horse supple > that way; it's ok for just sitting on him and pray nothing wrong happens. > 2. Some people think it is more humane (or because they hurt the mouth > with their hard hands) to replace the snaffle or the bit by a hackamore, > which is a type of bit with a strong lever effect but the pressure is > exerted externally on the frontal bone and not on the gums between the > incisives and the molars. Some well-known jumping riders popularized it. > (I presume there is something similar in western riding called bosal, but > I'm rather ignorant about that way of schooling. In Spain they still use > sometimes a noseband with a seesaw interior, but without lever effect, > it's directly linked to the reins. It's used for the initial schooling > of young horses, and I've seen it being used also very badly). This > might preserve the gums from the hands of very violent riders, but it can > hurt the nose. The main point is that it makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL if the > horse is not schooled to react at once to a very light leg or seat > pressure: the horse will push against the hand anyway, lift it head > instead of lowering it, arch his back, etc., as I described yesterday, and > behave just as if it was badly ridden with something in the mouth. I think > there are more uncollected, resisting, horses wearing a hackamore than > with a mouthpiece. Probably because bad riders always seek something else. > So, are such systems more humane as such. No, the only solution is to go > back to square one and teach well the young rider to use correctly the > century-old knowledge (although I agree old knowledge does not mean it > is per se right). > > > > > though). In some cases this would be considered more humane, but you > > can end up damaging the horse just as much if you're not careful. > > There are many different types of bits used for training horses. > > some are on a level of comparison with a thick nylon collar for a > > dog... others are like choke chains, and still others may even be > > compared to shock collars. The mildest bit can be wonderful training > > tool and does minimal damage to the horse - the best trainers will > > use the least harmful method to obtain the desired results... > > I fully agree. > > > > With higher levels of training, more severe bits may be required, > > But not to exert force, only to work in a more delicate way. The > USEFUL influence of a bit compared to a snaffle does not lie in its > stronger power, but in > the WAY it works, i.e. the positioning of the horse's head and neck > wich influences the balance of the whole body. > > > so... I suppose the answer to your last question about effectiveness > > is that yes, these methods do work, however they only work to a point > > and if more advanced work is required of the horse, more advanced > > training methods will have to be used. > > > In fact, bringing a horse correctly to high school relies on very simple > principles > and techniques. It's just a matter of patience and tact. > I like to remember that the philosphy of the high school is to make the > horse so supple that its natural gaits become even more beautiful, and > nothing more. All high school movements belong to the ethogram of the > horse. I long had doubts about the "appuyer" (half-pass in English?) until > I saw it happening in the field (there is a nice picture in M.Schaffer's > book "Die Sprache des Pferdes"). Some airs above the ground are probably > artificial (but they do not belong traditionally to the real high school > although many trainers wills do both (Vienna, Jerez, Portugese school of > Dr.Borba). > > > I guess I think that someone who wants to train a horse without a bit > > can only take that horse so far - it will not be in the same class as > > higher caliber horses. > > > > thanks for listening... > > :) > > ~Amy > > It was nice meeting you. See you some time on horseback. > Frank From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "Frank Odberg" 27-SEP-1996 07:21:41.96 To: IN%"amthomps@zebu.cvm.msu.edu" "Aim" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: horse bits I got a strange message back, so I'm not sure whether this re: was really sent over. I therefore repeat it. Sorry if you eventually got it twice. Frank On Fri, 27 Sep 1996, Frank Odberg wrote: > A few quick comments. > Frank > > On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Aim wrote: > > > I'm new to this group and have been reading your messages with great > > interest. This is a debate which no one will ever totally agree on. > > Here's something I think I can say a few words about... > > I've ridden and shown horses for over 10 years and I'm currently in > > vet school. The question of what is humane and what is inhumane has > > come up over many different topics, and I've come to the conclusion > > that this is something one must decide for themselves. > > > > Anyway, to respond to the questions about horse bits... > > My instructor used to say, as has been said in earlier postings, that > > the bit is only as harmful as the hands holding the reins. Likewise, > > > I fully agree with him. > > I'm sure, with shock collars. Anyway... > > Is it cruel to train a horse with a bit? No, it isn't. In the best > > possible scenario, only experienced riders will be training horses > > in the first place. The bit can be used in a harmful way by an > > inexperienced rider, but a seasoned rider can use it only to the > > point needed, then release their hold. > > Are there other ways to train horses and are they more humane? Yes, > > there are other ways... you can ride a horse with an apparatus on > > their head which doesn't have a bit. This is just as effective as > > using a mild bit (it still commands the horse by pinching the nose, > > I now realize Chantal's question might not concern the difference between > a bit and a snaffle, but putting something in the mouth altogether. > Two remarks: > 1. It is possible to control a quite horse to some extent only through > conditioning on arbitrary signals. The late Moyra Williams tried it in the > 60-ties (cf her book "Riding Unbridled" on her holidays across Britain). > As far as I remember she used signals such as pushing with the hand on the > right or left side of the withers to tell the horse to turn right or left > (NB: nothing to do with the mechanical effect of diagonal reins), but she > got some frightening moments although there was less traffic in those > days... However, I think one will never be able to make a horse supple > that way; it's ok for just sitting on him and pray nothing wrong happens. > 2. Some people think it is more humane (or because they hurt the mouth > with their hard hands) to replace the snaffle or the bit by a hackamore, > which is a type of bit with a strong lever effect but the pressure is > exerted externally on the frontal bone and not on the gums between the > incisives and the molars. Some well-known jumping riders popularized it. > (I presume there is something similar in western riding called bosal, but > I'm rather ignorant about that way of schooling. In Spain they still use > sometimes a noseband with a seesaw interior, but without lever effect, > it's directly linked to the reins. It's used for the initial schooling > of young horses, and I've seen it being used also very badly). This > might preserve the gums from the hands of very violent riders, but it can > hurt the nose. The main point is that it makes NO DIFFERENCE AT ALL if the > horse is not schooled to react at once to a very light leg or seat > pressure: the horse will push against the hand anyway, lift it head > instead of lowering it, arch his back, etc., as I described yesterday, and > behave just as if it was badly ridden with something in the mouth. I think > there are more uncollected, resisting, horses wearing a hackamore than > with a mouthpiece. Probably because bad riders always seek something else. > So, are such systems more humane as such. No, the only solution is to go > back to square one and teach well the young rider to use correctly the > century-old knowledge (although I agree old knowledge does not mean it > is per se right). > > > > > though). In some cases this would be considered more humane, but you > > can end up damaging the horse just as much if you're not careful. > > There are many different types of bits used for training horses. > > some are on a level of comparison with a thick nylon collar for a > > dog... others are like choke chains, and still others may even be > > compared to shock collars. The mildest bit can be wonderful training > > tool and does minimal damage to the horse - the best trainers will > > use the least harmful method to obtain the desired results... > > I fully agree. > > > > With higher levels of training, more severe bits may be required, > > But not to exert force, only to work in a more delicate way. The > USEFUL influence of a bit compared to a snaffle does not lie in its > stronger power, but in > the WAY it works, i.e. the positioning of the horse's head and neck > wich influences the balance of the whole body. > > > so... I suppose the answer to your last question about effectiveness > > is that yes, these methods do work, however they only work to a point > > and if more advanced work is required of the horse, more advanced > > training methods will have to be used. > > > In fact, bringing a horse correctly to high school relies on very simple > principles > and techniques. It's just a matter of patience and tact. > I like to remember that the philosphy of the high school is to make the > horse so supple that its natural gaits become even more beautiful, and > nothing more. All high school movements belong to the ethogram of the > horse. I long had doubts about the "appuyer" (half-pass in English?) until > I saw it happening in the field (there is a nice picture in M.Schaffer's > book "Die Sprache des Pferdes"). Some airs above the ground are probably > artificial (but they do not belong traditionally to the real high school > although many trainers wills do both (Vienna, Jerez, Portugese school of > Dr.Borba). > > > I guess I think that someone who wants to train a horse without a bit > > can only take that horse so far - it will not be in the same class as > > higher caliber horses. > > > > thanks for listening... > > :) > > ~Amy > > It was nice meeting you. See you some time on horseback. > Frank From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 27-SEP-1996 07:42:37.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: E-mail address needed/stereotypies. Does anyone know where I can contact Dr.Frank Odberg from Belgium. Dr. Sue Marinier from South Africa would like to contact him about information on stereotypies in dogs. Maybe anyone else with references on this topic would be kind enough to pass it on to me. Thank you in anticipation GLYNNE ANDERSON k9acad@iafrica.com From: IN%"dinah@vermontel.com" "Dinah" 27-SEP-1996 09:31:52.75 To: IN%"peter.penning@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Peter Penning" CC: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Horses and bits At 09:02 AM 9/27/96 +0100, you wrote: >If horses were not ridden then the discussion about bits would be irrelevant! > > >Peter Penning > If horses were not ridden there would be very few horses! Dinah From: IN%"kploof@zoo.uvm.edu" "Kara L. Ploof" 27-SEP-1996 10:23:30.06 To: IN%"gabouryc@EM.AGR.CA" "Chantal Gaboury" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Shock Collars and horse bits.... -RETRANSMIS My name is Kara Ploof and I am relatively new to this list. I'm a UVM Junior majoring in Pre-Vet medicine. I have had mixed feelings about the whole "shock collar" discussions. Now that horses have been thrown into the picture I must respond. As with the shock collars there will always be people who don't know how to use a bit correctly or abuse the horse with them. I have been riding for 12 years and have had Noah in my family for 5 years. Noah is a large Morgan horse who loves his work in Dressage. Bits can definately be very dangerous abusive tools if in the wrong hands. There are some bits produced out in the market that I don't believe should ever be allowed near an animal, but in most cases bits are not harmful. The bit I use in aiding Noah to do a move is a loose ring smooth snaffle. This bit fits his mouth properly so that there isn't pressure against his pre-molars, he isn't gagged, and isn't able to get his tongue over the top of the bit (this is a potentially harmful thing especially if the rider doesn't correct the problem). My hands are described as "soft" when it comes to riding. This means that I don't "saw" my horses mouth, or use a tight hold on the reins that isn't needed. Anyone trained to ride by a good instuctor will be taught to have soft hand or be like me and have the soft hands naturally. When teaching someone to be soft, a good trainer will put a "soft" bit in the horses mouth. An example of this would be a very large diameter D-ring snaffle, fit properly of course. (I wish I could put pictures of these bits up- they can be found under these names in any horse catalogue) The trainer would also make sure only a light contact with the horses mouth is used. Maybe there would even be a loop in the reins, meaning there is no contact between the riders hands and the bit. People who ride correctly and with the animals feelings in mind use body shifts, leg pressures, neck-reining pressure, etc to ask the horse to do something. Just this summer I trained a 3 year old mare to do different movements with only slight aids from me. Sarah, like Noah, likes working and needed very little coaxing to go from walk to trot or trot to canter. Of course, you may say "you don't need to 'pull' on the mouth to make them go faster only to stop." Yes, this is somewhat correct. But when a good rider asks a horse to slow down or stop they use their seat and leg. By "sitting deeper" and putting a different pressure on Noah's back (which he can still feel through the saddle) he slows down. Add to this a gentle pressure on the bit and he knows he's to slow more, either change to a slower gait or stop all together. Is this making sense?? This is what I was teaching Sarah and really it is a natural type understanding for them. I never had to "pull" the reins, it was always just a gentle pressure that was short in length. That's another key factor, the pressure must be released quickly, not held. If held the horse can either begin ignoring the aid by leaning on the bit and having the rider hold his/her weight or just become insensitive to the aid all together. As I said with the bits, pictures and a live film would be so much easier. I know some of you out there are going to retort with saying I give these animals feelings and I can't know they love to work or even like it. My response to that is. . . these are 1000-1200lbs animals. If they don't want to do what I am asking of them, they sure as heck aren't going to! Any of the aids I use on the horses I ride could be broken instantly by a good body weighted jerk. If someone is really against using a bit the only "humane" thing to use is nothing. If you want to train a horse to be ridable and don't want to use a bit, a hackamore can be used but this only moves the pressure from inside the mouth to outside the mouth and around the nose. If a horse is going to be accepting to what a human has planned for it neither a bit or a hackamore is going to bother him/her. One thing everyone must realize is there will always be someone who is going to abuse these animals with the aids given them. Education will help many to understand the processes better to prevent this, but there is still going to be a bad apple in the bunch that gives a bad name to the rest of us. That's in all of life. ps. Noah has the flu and hasn't been riden or worked in over a week and a half. Believe me, he is miserable!! You just have to hang around him a while and have him glaring, biting or pushing you to understand this.(these aren't his normal, everyday behaviors!!) Kara and Noah |\|\ ???| \\? ? ? . ?\?? / ___/?\??? |___/| ????\??? | ?????????? ? ?? ? ?? kploof@zoo.uvm.edu On Thu, 26 Sep 1996, Chantal Gaboury wrote: > Date: Tue, 24 Sep 1996 15:27:27 -0400 > From: Chantal Gaboury > To: applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca > Subject: Shock Collars and horse bits.... > > First I would like to say that I find the philosophical discussion on shock > collars both very interesting and informative. It has caused me to recall a > statement made by a friend of mine who had just started horseback > riding. He said "I'll put up with controlling a horse by using a bit for > now....but when I buy my own horse, I will refuse to use a bridal with a > bit..." I thought he was crazy at the time... > But after reading the letters of those participating in the shock collar > discussion, I thought, some of the arguments being used to support the > idea that shock collars shouldn't be used in dog training, might equally > apply to the use of bridal bits in horseback riding... > > 1) Do you think it is cruel to train a horse using a bit in its mouth? > 2) Are there other ways of training a horse that might be considered > more humaine? > 3) Are these techniques effective? > > I would like to hear your ideas on this topic! > > Chantal Gaboury > gabouryc@em.agr.ca > From: IN%"kploof@zoo.uvm.edu" "Kara L. Ploof" 27-SEP-1996 10:42:12.15 To: IN%"peter.penning@bbsrc.ac.uk" "Peter Penning" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Horses and bits Mr Penning, If horses aren't ridden then no animal should be trained for anything. What do you propose we do with horses then. Let them die in the wild from over pop. or be pampered by humans that only ask them to carry them an average of 2 hours a day (if that long). Kara and Noah (I don't want to be free roaming!! I get better care then my caretaker gets!!) |\|\ ???| \\? ? ? . ?\?? / ___/?\??? |___/| ????\??? | ?????????? ? ?? ? ?? kploof@zoo.uvm.edu From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" 30-SEP-1996 02:23:02.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Address Frank Odberg/stereotipies Thank you all for your help, especially the following: Natalie W J.M.Faure Robin W Caroline H Davide C Sonia S It was pointed out to me Frank was actually participating in the discussion on horse bits! If I had been bit brighter I would have noticed myself! Again - thanks and take care. GLYNNE ANDERSON k9acad@iafrica.com From: IN%"pete@mloy.fi" 30-SEP-1996 03:40:37.83 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: "Ecological milk" Dear Jeff & others, The information I have received about "ecological milk" in Finland: the price varies from 4.80 to 6.00 FMK (USD 1.05 - 1.35) compared to 3.90 FMK (USD 0.85) for "normal" milk. It is easier to get in certain areas. Overall, the consumption is well below 1% of total milk consumption (maybe 0.1%) but apparently increasing. ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Peter Bredbacka FABALAB P.O. Box 40, Urheilutie 6, 01301 Vantaa, Finland phone: +358 9 8570 6501 fax: +358 9 8570 6402 e-mail: pete@mloy.fi ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin E Walker" 30-SEP-1996 04:38:06.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle behaviour A recent report in the UK press described an incident in which a farmer was attempting to remove a calf from a field. The bull which was in the field rushed up and attacked the man . The farmer regained consciousness to discover himself surrounded by a ring of cows facing outward and keeping the bull (which was trying to get at him) away. I am no cattle ethologist but it seems to me that the bull was trying to protect the calf. I have personally seen a bull hurry up to investigate a bawling calf. Crawling behaviour (in a human) can excite cattle dramatically. Many years ago upon a sudden impulse of early scientific curiosity/ or pubescent idiocy I dropped to hands and knees whilst bringing in the milking herd! There was a manic stampede (with tails erect) which after a while formed into a charge towards me. Luckily everything stopped when I stood up! I wonder if the cows rushed up at the sight of the badly hurt man and then switched to defending the calf which happened to be there? The press took the anthropomorphic view that the cows were protecting the farmer becase they "liked" him. Robin Walker "Prick the calf and the old cow will mooween" from "Lorna Doone" From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@nlh10.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" 30-SEP-1996 05:03:37.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Associate professorship in applied ethology Dear colleagues (and particularly the Nordic ones), I hereby announce a new permanent position as Associate Professor (or Senior Lecturer or foersteamanuensis as we call it in Norway) in farm animal ethology and animal welfare at Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway. The new person is expected to spend roughly 40% of the time on research, 40% on teaching, and 10% on administration. Our institution gives about seven different courses in ethology in the BSc and MSc studies in animal science and biology, ranging from basic ethology and behavioural ecology to stress biology and neuroethology. The new person should have teaching competence in both basic ethology and applied aspects. Experience with suspervising MSc and PhD students is desirable. The new person should have a PhD in ethology or applied ethology and must present documentation on his/her scientific and teaching competence, as well as administrative experience. Formal education in university pedagogics is required, or should be obtained within two years. Because of the heavy teaching duties, and the close contact with media, organizations and people concerned with animal welfare, the new person should be able to speak and write in Norwegian or other Scandinavian languages. The salary is currently about NOK 280,000 per year (US $ 43,300). The deadline for applications is 15th October 1996. If you are interested, I will send you the official announcement text and more info about the position in Norwegian. Bjarne Bjarne O. Braastad Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 From: IN%"102234.510@CompuServe.COM" "Sabine Van den Weghe" 30-SEP-1996 06:19:26.11 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology network" CC: Subj: Proceedings Appl. Ethol., Freiburg 95 Dear all, the brandnew proceedings from Freiburg November 1995 are available! Proceedings of International Congress on Applied Ethology, November 1995 The International Congress on Applied Ethology is organized by the German Veterinary Society (DVG) at the Institute of Animal Hygiene in Freiburg which is namely Prof. Zeeb and his staff. Major topics of the congress in November 1995 were dealing with 'Endorphins, Stress and Behaviour' and 'behavioural problems in large herds'. The prior session handled the relevance of physiological measurements like stress related hormones and its importance for the assessment of housing conditions. Abnormal behaviour in farm animals is most often a result of inadequate environment. With concern to large herds or large groups various studies are presented which deal e.g. with the effect of different housing systems in broiler chickens (conventional versus Louisiana) onto behaviour or leg problems in broiler turkeys. A positive example is given in a study about social behaviour of milk goates. Lactational oestrus of sows in group housing or environmental demands of cats of prey kept in enclosures are examples of various interesting applied studies which are presented in the free communications. The proceeding papers are published in the KTBL Schrift (373) "Aktuelle Arbeiten zur artgemasen Tierhaltung 1995" which provide an excellent and well prepared survey of ongoing research in applied ethology in Germany, Austria, Switzerland and the Netherlands. Figures, tables and summaries are written in english language. The text, all in all of 21 papers on 231 pages, is written in german language, each paper comprises about 11 pages. Contents are given in the following. The proceedings could be obtained through KTBL-Schriften-Vertrieb im Landwirtschaftsverlag GmbH Postfach 480249 D-48079 Munster Telefax +49-2501 80 12 04. The prize is 34,- DM plus 5,- DM postage. An easy way to buy is sending an EC-cheque that includes postage of overall 39,- DM (other currencies are invalid). +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ Sabine Van den Weghe e-mail: 102234,510@compuserve.com +++++++++++++++++++++++++++ C O N T E N T S ENDORPHINS, STRESS AND BEHAVIOUR Endorphins and their relation to behavior, stress and animal welfare ANDREAS HAEMISCH s-endorphin is an endogenous opiod peptide. It is released simultaneously with ACTH from the anterior pituitary gland. Thus levels of hormones of the pituitary adrenocortical axis and s-endorphin in plasma frequently show identical curves in response to stress. In contrast to corticosteroids 1.) changes of plasma s-endorphin in humans correlate with the degree of emotional experiences; 2.) reflect chonic states of stress possibly more precisely and 3.) effect activity of the pituitary-adrenal axis under chronic states of stress. Although the role of endorphines in stress induced analgesia in response to the repeated administration of painfull stimuli has been studied intensely, the interpretation of elevated plasma-levels of endorphins in respect to animal welfare still remains obscure. The influence of housing system and social rank on the secretion of cortisol, s-endorphin and dynorphin in sows ADROALDO J. ZANELLA, P. BRUNNER, J. UNSHELM, M.T. MENDL AND D.M. BROOM In order to determine the value of opioids and glucocorticoids as welfare indicators, blood samples were collected hourly, from 8:00 to 17:00 h from High Ranking (HR) (n=5) Middle Ranking (MR) (n=7) and Low Ranking (LR) (n=4) group housed sows and from 8 Stall Housed Sows (SHS). Cerebrospinal fluid (CSF) was collected after pentobarbital injection (n=17; HR n=2; MR n=3; LR n=4 and SHS n=8). Brains were removed, weighed and frozen. The CSF s-endorphin level was 2,58 pg/ml (? 0,876 SE). There was an indication that HR, MR and stall housed sows tended to have lower s-endorphin levels in the CSF than LR sows (0 83 pg/ml ? 0,39; 1,66 pg/ml ? 0,472; 1,07 pg/ml ? 0,267 and 6,81 pg/ml ? 3,27 re-spectively). Mean dynorphin (1-13) levels in the CSF were 12,56 pg/ml (? 5,49). LR sows had significantly lighter brains than HR sows (LR=126,05 ? 2,18 and HR=144,86 ? 3,97) and showed no circadian pattern in cortisol secretion. HR and LR sows had lower cortisol levels than MR sows. The results showed that LR sows have higher s-endorphin levels in the central nervous system indicating that there is an association between social rank and activation of endoge-nous opioid system. MR sows changed more often their social rank and have higher cortisol levels but lower peripheral s-endorphin. This suggests that the regulation of cortisol levels may be influenced by endogenous opioids. Physiological adaptation of growing pigs with different social ranks confronted with a familiar and unfamiliar group WINFRIED OTTEN, B. STABENOW, B. PUPPE, E. KANITZ, P.C. SCHOEN AND G. NUERNBERG It is the aim of this study to investigate the individual behavioural patterns and physiological stress reactions of growing pigs with different social ranks using a social contact test with a familiar and unfamiliar group. The social confrontation of a pig (Age: 15-16 weeks) with a familiar or unfamiliar group caused very frequent agonistic interactions during the first 30 min. This behaviour was ac-companied with a rapid increase of heart rate and plasma catecholamine concentrations and a delayed increase of cortisol concentrations. Pigs, classified as high ranking in a preselec-tion, had more agonistic interactions during the first 30 min, accompanied with higher plasma catecholamine concentrations. Additionally, these animals showed the ability to win more fights during the 10-hour test situation compared to the low ranking pigs. The confron-tation of an animal with the unfamiliar group resulted in a higher adrenocortical reaction compared to the confrontation with the familiar group. In particular, the high ranking animals showed a distinct increase of plasma cortisol concentration during the first hour after con-frontation with the unfamiliar group. The preliminary results presented in this paper indicate that, in pigs, the physiological adap-tation during a social stress situation does not only depend on the dominance type of the animal, but is also influenced by the success of the individual coping pattern and the ani-mal's ability to control and predict the situation. BEHAVIOURAL PROBLEMS IN LARGE HERDS Is it possible to increase the proportion of resting pigs in lairage by attractive stimuli? RALF-BERND LAUBE, J. LIPPMANN AND D. SCHAFFER The resting behaviour (lying and sitting) of slaughter pigs under the influence of brightness and heat was investigated in a medium size abattoir. For this purpose a narrow rectangular holding-pen was length-wise divided from back to front into four quadrants (Q I to Q IV) and additional light was set in Q I or in Q IV or in neither. The behaviour of 2 groups (40 pigs for group) at each illumination-condition had been recorded on video for 2 hours. We analysed the behaviour at 5 min-in-tervals by recording the proportion of animals resting (lying and sitting) and standing or moving as well at each interval as in each quarter of the pen. The illuminated quadrants Q I and Q IV showed to be significantly preferred for resting. In a pre-vious research (SCHULZE, 1990) slaughter pigs preferred a not illuminated to an illuminated but not heated up area. This result clearly shows that the pigs in the present investigation preferred heat. In the strongly preferred Q I and Q IV the pigs limited the area they occupied to less than 0,65 m2/pig for most of the time (extreme case: 0,32 m2/pig). It is necessary to offer the pigs as well an increased heated area as an alternative area. In this way a con-stant control over the resting-use of both areas is given. Observation of the social behaviour of milk goats NINA MARIA KEIL AND H. H. SAMBRAUS In a herd of goats, two groups - one group was horned (n=98), the other was hornless (n = 83) were observed in terms of social behaviour. In both groups, pure-blood breeds and all conceivable cross-breeds of Coloured German Improved, White German Improved, Tog-genburg, Saanen and Anglo-Nubian were present. They had a maximum of 12 years of age. The animals lived all year round in sheds which had bays 33 m long and 4,8 m wide (horned group) or 4,2 m (hornless group). The behavioural observation took place for 8 hours a day, 3 days per week between February and June 1995. The following results could be estab-lished: 1. Of all conceivable dominance relationships, 41,7 % of those of the horned group and 43,8 % of those of the hornless group could be clarified. A clear social hierarchy ap-peared in both herds. 2. In both herds weight played an important role in determining the social rank of the animal. On the other hand only a weak correlation between the rank index and milk yield emerged. 3. From a group of focal animals it was established that (with one exception), each animal moved around in the whole of the area devoted to that group, however in varying fre-quency. Some sections were occupied more than others. 4. There were individuals in both herds which broke up stubborn fights between other mem-bers of the herd. The fights were broken up relatively more often amongst the horned animals than the hornless ones. Those animals which settled the fight were not always ranked higher than those fighting. 5. Neither the size of the herd nor the density of the stock (about 1,5 m2/animal) seemed to interfere with the well-being of the animals. Investigations on the behaviour of broilers in commercial farms KERSTIN UNER, D. BUCHENAUER, T. SCHMIDT AND D. SIMON The behaviour of broilers was investigated in two commercial farms. One farm consisted of conventional windowless stables. One winter and one summer period were observed there. Another fattening period was in summer observed on the other farm with Louisiana stables. In boths farms the standard housing conditions (control group) were compared with another treatment using reduced flock density an a light program which included dark phases (test group). The investigations were carried out by observing focus animals and by video cameras. The statistical analysis showed that the behaviour of the animals was influenced in different intensities by fattening period, treatment (control or test group), and age of animals. Concerning the fattening period, the stable type (conventional or Louisiana) was of importance. The activity level was significant higher in the Louisiana stables. The summer and winter season influenced the behaviour of the broilers in the conventional stable. The animals were in winter more active, they rested more often in summer. The resting behaviour was not influenced by the treatment. Locomotion activities proved to be a sensitive parameter. They were displayed more frequently in the test group. This was the case also at the end of the fattening period. Exploration as well as social behaviour were to be seen more often by the animals of the test groups. However, a higher feeding activity was observed more frequently in the control group. Finally one comes clearly to the conclusion that a reduction of flock density combined with a light program has positive effects on the behaviour of broilers. Even the performances (daily gain and animal losses) were better in the test groups, especially in summer time. The behaviour and injuries in fattening groups of male rabbits LOTTI BIGLER AND H. OESTER The aim of the study was to determine if the aggressive behaviour and the injuries in fatten-ing groups with male rabbits are influenced by the factors age, group size and group com-position. 55 groups of different size were examined for injuries over a period of four years. The aggressive behaviour and group movements caused by aggressive and sexual actions were recorded in 15 groups. The frequency of aggressive and sexual behaviour was higher in larger groups and the number and severity of injuries was increasing with larger groups. Other factors must be studied to reduce the risk in the keeping of male fattening rabbits in groups. The introduction of gilts into subgroups of sows GERRIT VAN PUTTEN In grouphousing systems for sows social hierarchy may lead to severe fighting. Replacement gilts are considered to be particularly endangered. Therefore, many farmers keep gilts in separate groups, until their first litter has been weaned. Some even wait for weaning of the second litter. However, theoretically there should not be such problem, provided the service house has an adequate layout. Ten groups of 7 sows and 3 gilts were observed on 2 days in specially designed service houses (3 weeks apart) and on 4 days in the gestation house (also 3 weeks apart). Every observation lasted 2 hours and was repeated after 2 days. The animals were observed dur-ing the resting period around noon. In the service house all animals were observed at the beginning of their stay of four weeks and three weeks later. In the gestation house only gilts of the four subgroups present, were checked for their lying location. In the service house sows and gilts were checked twice for lesions of the integument: on day 2 for consequenses of fighting for the social hierarchy and on day 10 for the consequences of the interactions during estrus. Although the gilts appeared to have more lesions than the sows, the severity of the dam-ages was no reason for alarm. In the service house 54 % of the gilts was lying in mixed groups (sows and gilts). The gilts spent only 12 % of the lying period in groups, consisting of gilts only. In the gestation house 42 % of all gilts was lying in the area allocated to their own subgroup. As pregnancy advanced, this percentage tended to decrease. The gilts spent 30 % lying in front of the feeding station and 23 % in the lying areas of other subgroups. The conclusion is, provided their is an adequate service house available, gilts do integrate well into subgroups of sows, and remain part of that subgroup during pregnancy. During fights more damage is done to the gilts than to the sows. However, these lesions never were severe in our experiments and never resulted in permanent damage. Behaviour and injuries of pregnant group-housed sows using an electronic feeder (under special regard of adding straw) KIRSTEN SCHAFER-MUELLER, S. STAMER AND E. ERNST Straw - improves the attractivity of environment - allows feeding in a group - increases aggressions and injuries, which were mostly not serious - decreases the activity around the feeding-station. Straw in a rack is given preference over chopped straw in the lying boxes because - it is more attractive for the sows - it remains clean - the quality of resting in the lying boxes is not impared. FREE COMMUNICATIONS Group housing of lactating sows in practice: Frequency of the lactational oestrus and behaviour of the sows BETINA MONIKA KRESS, A. ROs UND H.P. SCHWARZ Certain behavourial elements of 28 lactating sows and their litters in a grouphousing system were investigated. The appearing lactational oestrus was registered in its frequency likewise the sows reproduction results were analysed. The main results were: 1. The sows joined a group with a stable rank order, aggressions appeared only during the very first days after grouping. Behavioural elements of fighting like levering and biting were replaced by non-fighting elements like threatening and pushing. 2. The sows showed a lactational oestrus 5-8 days after farrowing in 53,5 %. The oestrus was determined clearly. 3. Compared with the german average the reproduction results were high. The sows had 2,38 litters a year. 4. Further investigations about effects of the lactational oestrus on the health of the sows are necessary. Prefarrowing and farrowing behaviour of sows with different possibilities for movement URSULA FRITSCH, F. STEINWENDER, J. BOXBERGER, S. KONRAD AND H. BARTUSSEK This study compares the behaviour of sows kept in farrowing crates, Schmid-boxes or a group farrowing system. A restriction of the possibility to move reduces the activity during exploration and nest building, which causes an increase in ventral lying position and trans-forms the abrupt reduction of activity at the beginning of the lying phase to a progressive one. Tied sows (1,2 m2 space) are unable to work with straw or move around. They quite often show restless lying and standing and a significant higher activity with the environment during the lying phase before parturition. To prevent an effect on the duration of birth, more sows need an oxytocininjection and we also found more stillborn piglets in this housing system. In the Schmid-Boxes, which provides the sow about 7 m2 for moving, there are only very small behavioural effects left. The higher frequencies for some activities are an effect of the locomotory activity. In the sum the behaviour around parturition is very similar in housing systems in which the sow can move around freely, which are represented by Schmid-boxes and group farrowing. These systems fulfil the needs of the animal in about the same way. The occurence of sev-eral management problems are the reason, that group farrowing is not yet ready for practical use. Influence of different housing systems and size of farm on lesions and production of dairy cows NIVES MAVSAR AND M. AMON Influences of different housing systems and size of farm on lesions and production of dairy cows was carried out on 17 farms of different size, with 3173 dairy cows. The share and intensity of lesions on pasterns, carpuses, front claws, tarsuses, back claws, sternum, with-ers, thighs, hip-bones, back and tail were established. The intensity of lesions was visually evaluated with grades from 0 to 3 and more, in dependance with part of body. The strongest influence on intensity and share of lesions has rearing system. In loose housing systems there were less lesions established than in tied stall systems. Influence of grazing increased the mistakes and influences of shed equipments. In older animals more and stronger lesions were established than in younger ones. Animals that had stronger and more numerous lesions were giving less milk, their open days lasted more time, their life expectations are shorter, their welfare was worse. In smaller farms animals were on average older, they had less lesions, they were giving more milk. Behavioural observations in dairy cows as a method to evaluate skid resistance of different floor types SONJA WLCEK AND H.-J. HERRMANN The present investigation focused on the skid resistance of floors in dairy housing systems and their reliable measurement. Selected ethological parameters were tested for their suitebility to judge the skid resistance and for their ease of use in practice. In addition differ-ences between poured asphalt, solid concrete and slatted floors were of interest. Walking speed and position of the head were registered while the cows were leaving the milking parlour. Direct observations were carried out to measure the slipping frequency dur-ing defined behavioural activities. With the exception of self grooming kaudal the costal arch the behavioural activities failed to be a sensible indicator for the skid resistance of floors. When the animals were self-grooming kaudal slipping was significantly (p<0.001) more frequent on slatted than on solid floors. In cubicle systems a shift of the comfort behaviour from the floor to the lying area was hindered. The behavioural adaption to avoid possible damage was impaired. Perches for broiler turkeys LUKAS BIRCHER, H. HIRT AND H. OESTER From about 4 weeks old, wild turkeys, original breeds and broiler turkeys of the lighter Betina-hybrid spend the night on raised perches. Betina turkeys in intensive rearing stations also make use of perches during the day either to clean themselves or to rest. By that, not all the broiler turkeys of the heavy hybrids B.U.T. Big 6 and B.U.T. 9 use perches during the night. Increasing age and weight cause more and more leg problems and increasingly fewer animals make use of raised perches as would be expected during the night. During the day perches are rearly used. The majority of heavy broiler turkeys use perches during the night when reaching them was facilitated by means of a ramp. The number lessens with increas-ing age. Nevertheless up to the end of the fattening period there are considerably more birds on the perches at night than there are without a ramp. Thus it is clear that the motiva-tion to use perches exits even in broiler turkeys of heavy hybrid lines. We assume that the use of perches is caracteristic for all turkey breeds. The results indicate that the hybrid typi-cal non-use of perches is an effect of the one-sided extreme breeding with its changes in the construction of the skeleton and the consequent leg problems. Leg weakness in fattening turkeys HELEN HIRT, E. FROHLICH AND H. OESTER With tom turkeys from the B.U.T. 9 and B.U.T. Big 6 lines, the development and degree of leg weakness was investigated in terms of the effect on behaviour of these birds. In all groups, a notable number of animals showed leg weakness independent of the turkey line, hatch, absolute body weight and housing conditions. It has been reported that a genetic disposition to the development of leg weakness might exist. Veterinary research has con-firmed that most animals shows signs of pathological change in their skeleton. Such pheno-typic alterations are a consequence of the breeding objectives, thus making it impossible to enrich housing conditions such that the needs of the birds would be met and their welfare established. In order to fulfil the needs of the animal, physiological and ethological parame-ters should be considered as selection criteria, in addition to economic efficiency. Comparative study of the mother-young-relationship of the muscovy duck (Cairina moschata) INGO BECKER AND A. BILSING Comparative investigations has been carried out between wild-form-muscovy ducklings and domestic muscovy ducklings each with adoptiv maternal animal. The influence of semi-natural and of stable housing conditions to ducklings beak-activity were studied. The beak-activity was directed with a predominant part to the extraspecific environment objects. Through the improvment of the housing conditions ducklings, beak-activity showed a shift in goal-directed behaviour, away from species mate towards extraspecific environment objects. The poor housing conditions caused a tremendous decrease of the ducklings beak-activity against extraspecific environmental objects. At the same time the goal direction of the beak-activity shifted to the species mates and especially to the adoptiv maternal animal. The in-fluence of the genetic origin of ducklings beak-activity was low. The resultes revealed that wild-form-ducklings exhibit less beak-body-contacts directed to each other than the duck-lings of the domestic form. Social struktures of ducklings - influence of domestication SABINE BAUM An important aspect in the development of adequate housing systems is the knowledge of the social structure of the animal in question. Mallard and peking ducklings form a social structure in motherless groups. Possibly siblings replace the mother among themselves. The animals obviously know each other individually and prefer a certain partner by interaction. In order to allow such social structures to be formed and therefor to avoid social stress, small groups, respectively the appropriate structure of duckling sheds, is recommended. Investigations on suckling behaviour in rabbits by the help of Infrared-Videotechnique IRIS SCHULTE AND S. HOY 24-hour-investigations with Infrared-Videotechnique in 22 rabbit litters with 135 alive born sibblings have shown that the frequency of suckling is greater than once a day (up to 5 in 24 h) with an average of 1.6 (4th week of age) to 2.7 (2nd week) and a mean duration of 3.5 min per suckling event. There was no significant difference in using right or left teats by pups but a light tendency to more cranial teats. Sibblings died during suckling period have had a significant lower birth weight (43.7 g) compared to weanlings (58.4 g; p<0.01). Signifi-cant correlations were found between birth weight, milk intake, daily gain and weaning weight (r = 0.33 to 0.89). With increasing birth weight milk intake (r = 0.43), daily gain (r = 0.52) and weaning weight (r = 0.40) were increased. Environmental demands of cats of prey - structure of enclosures and their relevance to animal welfare CORNELIA EXNER AND J. UNSHELM The aim of the present study was to obtain information which help to define guide- lines to improve the environmental conditions in enclosures for cats of prey. During 15 months nine zoos in the Federal Republic of Germany were visited. Data of the environmental conditions in 35 enclosures, which 266 animals (21 species) were kept, were collected. To decide, if cats of prey are able to cope with their surrounding environment, the behaviour of 33 lions, 30 tigers, 31 leopards and 20 cheetahs was observed for a period of 10 days per animal. For each day the time was subdivided in two blocks of ten minutes and five blocks of one minute. The enclosures physical characteristics were recorded. The breeding records of all cats present in the zoos and the data of pathology since 1981 were collected. The analysis of the enclosures physical characteristics showed that not all possibilities of design and construction were used in the best way. In only 20 % of the indoor and 19 % of the outdoor pens the structure of the room was assessed to be very good. In 22,5 % (indoor) and 9,4 % (outdoor) of the cases this rating was poor. The comparison between the ethograms of the different species showed a speciesspecific distribution of the observed parameters. Giving the opportunity all cats prefered higher resting places, but leopards used them more frequently (p < 0,01). This species prefered also concealments (holes, trees) for its resting period. Leopards showed stereotypies more often than the others (63,3 % of the active period) (p < 0,01). Enclosures also influenced this behaviour. In pens below 200 m2 animals showed stereotypies for longer periods than in larger ones (44,6 min/6,9 min) (p < 0,01). The type of building, in which the animals were kept, influenced the number of born and grown up animals. In the large buildings for cats of prey less animals were born and grown up than in houses for only one species (p < 0,01). The noted data of the breeding records showed that 57 % of the dead cubs were killed by their mother or father. The ability of animals to adapt to different environmental conditions is limited. Therefore it is necessary to understand the animals needs in order to offer good animal housing.