From: IN%"mimidrake@frsc.us" "Mimi Drake" 27-SEP-2006 00:03:03.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: TEST The list is either very quiet or I'm still not getting any list mail? Mimi Cary Drake From: IN%"clare@hughes.net" "Clare" 30-SEP-2006 09:52:53.34 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued Subject: what odds would you give that this damaged dog could be rescued? http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4027079630269613373&hl=en-CA I remember when Jon first described this dog to me as making the hair on the back of his neck stand on end. The pictures at the beginning of the clip show the damage she had done by a logging chain grown into her skin. Jon has contacts at a local shelter to work with the really hard case dogs rather than have them euthanized. Here is quite a success story. Jon uses a combination of praise, petting, physical manipulation and mild corrections to teach this dog respect, tolerance, trust and self control. If you have a seriously aggressive dog and need some help, you can find more info on Jon at http://falawoods.com/ Julie From: IN%"clare@hughes.net" "Clare" 30-SEP-2006 19:26:45.08 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued This female was 4 years old. further information one her and how the muzzle was put on. He had NO relationship with this dog when she came in. This tape was taken within less than an hour after she first arrived. This trainer started learning how to work aggressive dogs at this facility http://www.tops-k9.com/ when he was 15. He doesn't get too many dogs as strongly aggressive as she was, especially ones as neglected. But he does work dogs like this on a regular basis and has over 20 years of experience with them and dogs all the way down to soft and fearful. This work was done for free. I am curious as to how a veterinary behaviorist would have proceeded and how many would have tried or simply written her off as not worth the effort since the work would have been done pro bono. Clare actually this young man did all the finish work on the dog. I did the first steps of the training and everything that I thought would be dangerous but he did the majority of the training. he was with us for about 8 months and went through a internship coarse that I'm trying to finalize so we can offer this to the public and other trainers. this was also a test video. it covered the beginning and the end. there is enough for 20 more vid clips with all the stuff in the middle.. like getting the dog to except a muzzle, teaching down stays with distractions and having strangers pat the dog. she was a very cool dog and we all learned allot from her. in order for me to advance as a trainer myself and also to teach others I need to work with dogs like this. after all it's hard to better yourself training dogs that are close to being genetically perfect, and ones we have raised as little pups. dogs like this is what I feel enhances a trainers ability. so for the last several years we have built a good net work of shelters and breed rescues who refer dogs like this to us for training and assistance in rehoming. this is how we were able to get this dog. she is now working security with a handler of her own. last we spoke the dog is doing very well for them and as long as they structure her life she stays in check. it's to bad she was not younger. if this dog was a year or so old she could have went further. but stating with a dog like this that's almost 4 years old will limit your result. she was a very cool dog to work. she had about a 14 hour drive to get to our place. a dog confined for this long will normally be more concerned about getting out to stretch and relieve themselves then trying to be an axx to it's handler. the staff member at the rescue was able to sneak the muzzle on for me. that is the ideal. most dogs that are truly tuff are not a problem to muzzle unless they had a bad experience with it. I normally do not like to let dogs like this hang out and adjust before training. I prefer to start working them right away. and most are not to apposed to being muzzled. if a dog is more of a skitz then a bad axx your other option is to sedate them and muzzle them while they are out then allow them to wake up muzzled. it's not my first choice but on some cases it's the only choice. once you do get a muzzle on you need to teach them to except something being put on there face. so for that I use a oversize muzzle and practice taking it on/off while the dog is muzzled. this helps me set the presence for day 2.. she left here a few months back. with help from joe kidd who is also one of our board members we were able to find her a home doing securety. last we spoke she was doing very well and was also very comfortable with her new handler. she trully was a special dog. very sound in the head, very stable also. she just did not like people. a true bad axx. i'm not much into rottweilers any more. but if ihad the propper home envirement i would have kept her for myself. ----- Original Message ----- From: Stephane Meder Vincileoni To: Clare ; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 3:29 PM Subject: Re: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued Clare Hi This is a case study, but we can generalize on agressivity. Some dogs are dissocialized and when they have more than 8 or 10 months the prognosis is very bad and cautioned. Others dogs are deprivated, others hypersensitive-hyperactive,. Be careful when you offer a service like this, of this nature, it's very dangerous, more dangerous without an opinion of a Veterinary Specialized in Behavior Best Regards Stephane Meder Vincileoni MVZ ----- Original Message ----- From: Clare To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Sent: Saturday, September 30, 2006 11:52 AM Subject: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued Subject: what odds would you give that this damaged dog could be rescued? http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4027079630269613373&hl=en-CA I remember when Jon first described this dog to me as making the hair on the back of his neck stand on end. The pictures at the beginning of the clip show the damage she had done by a logging chain grown into her skin. Jon has contacts at a local shelter to work with the really hard case dogs rather than have them euthanized. Here is quite a success story. Jon uses a combination of praise, petting, physical manipulation and mild corrections to teach this dog respect, tolerance, trust and self control. If you have a seriously aggressive dog and need some help, you can find more info on Jon at http://falawoods.com/ Julie From: IN%"saluqi@ix.netcom.com" "John Burchard" 30-SEP-2006 23:41:59.87 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued Clare wrote: > Subject: what odds would you give that this damaged dog could be > rescued? > > > http://video.google.ca/videoplay?docid=4027079630269613373&hl=en-CA > I remember when Jon first described this dog to me as making the hair > on the back of his neck stand on end. The pictures at the beginning > of the clip show the damage she had done by a logging chain grown > into her skin. Jon has contacts at a local shelter to work with the > really hard case dogs rather than have them euthanized. Here is quite > a success story. Jon uses a combination of praise, petting, physical > manipulation and mild corrections to teach this dog respect, > tolerance, trust and self control. If you have a seriously aggressive > dog and need some help, you can find more info on Jon at > http://falawoods.com/ I am on dialup ... so viewing the video online was not practicable. Instead I downloaded it - which took four hours . The .avi file is just short of 40 MB in size. There is also at least one mailing list (to which I belong) devoted to resolving the problems of aggressive dogs. The usual recommendation is to work one on one with a knowledgeable local professional, since each case is unique and giving behavior advice by Internet, sight unseen, is questionable at best. It needs knowledgeable first-hand observation of the dog's behavior to understand what that particular dog's issues may be, and personal contact to teach the owner how to deal with them. This may be slightly off-topic for this list ... but problems with aggressive dogs are a fact of life in modern society, and there are few subjects on which so many misconceptions and false ideas are prevalent. John -- Dr. John Burchard Tepe Gawra Salukis saluqi@ix.netcom.com http://saluqi.home.netcom.com/ From: IN%"clare@hughes.net" "Clare" 1-OCT-2006 13:07:13.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology list" CC: Subj: RE: aggressive dog being successfully trained using a muzzle, chain collar and mild corrections, nothing harsh except the initial state of the dog when rescued > There is also at least one mailing list (to which I belong) devoted to > resolving > the problems of aggressive dogs. The usual recommendation is to work one > on one > with a knowledgeable local professional, since each case is unique and > giving > behavior advice by Internet, sight unseen, is questionable at best. It > needs > knowledgeable first-hand observation of the dog's behavior to understand > what > that particular dog's issues may be, and personal contact to teach the > owner how > to deal with them. Very true, Jon is often critical of internet training advice. He has clients who travel from quite a distance in N. America, is training new trainers, including having 6 students from a rescue group in Canada coming in next month. He has a list of other trainers around the US and Canada who are very experienced in handling the extremely aggressive dogs that otherwise might be euthanized. He also has a list of people such as the security company who took this dog who can safely handle and use dogs unsuitable for most handlers. There is little point in training the dog effectively if there is no safe place for the dog to go. With the increased demand for police and military dogs in the past years, for civilian security work, finding suitable dogs is more difficult. Having a network of rescue groups, shelters, qualified trainers and capable owners can not only save the lives of these dogs but have jobs for them. If rescue groups to learn how to handle these safely long enough to get them to a qualified trainer, they can save their lives while freeing up resources for rescue dogs suitable for pet homes. > This may be slightly off-topic for this list ... but problems with > aggressive > dogs are a fact of life in modern society, and there are few subjects on > which > so many misconceptions and false ideas are prevalent. With the recent muzzle discussion, this clip seemed pertinent to the usefulness of a muzzle in some situations. It also showed that the dog was paying no attention to it even though wearing it for the first time. There was no attempt to remove the muzzle or paw at it. It did not seem to trigger any extra aggression to the trainer or the dog he had lying quietly there as a test. It was not a long term solution but a safety measure that allowed the dog to attempt to bite, learn that this was not effective or permitted, learn that human touch wasn't all that bad and in the end something to appreciate. As there are a number of members of rescue groups on the list, I hope it was close enough to on topic to be useful. regards, Clare