From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 16-SEP-1998 04:09:49.93 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology", IN%"amcb@soton.ac.uk" "Anne McBride", IN%"Dr.B.Schoening@t-online.de" "Barbara Schoening", IN%"b.w.knol@vet.uu.nl" "Bart Knol", IN%"Beatrice.DeSmet@rug.ac.be" "Beatrice De Smet", IN%"vanber@l CC: Subj: Lyon 1999 ESVCE, GECAF International satellite meeting - WSAVA (CNVSPA Organisation) - LYON 1999, 22-24 September CALL FOR SPEAKERS The deadline to send the summaries has been postponed to the 31rst December 1998. -------------------------- My precedent e-mail had several errors. --------------------------- http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/lyon99.html The organisation is independent from the CNVSPA congress so everybody will get a good opportunity to present his/her work. All propositions will be examined independently of CNVSPA lectures. Applications to speak at the sessions will be accepted until December 31rst, 1998. The applications must be sent to the committee (address below) in the form of a 1800-character summary (approximately), i.e. one page of 12-point characters in Times New Roman-type font. Each applicant must supply three copies, one with his name and details, and two additional anonymous copies such that the summaries can be read without knowing the name of the author. The applicant is requested to attach to this summary a brief but accurate description of the presentation techniques he/she intends to use. The organising committee wishes to avoid, wherever possible, the use of overheads and can offer technical assistance to anyone who is unable to produce slides for themselves. To apply for this assistance, simply explain the circumstances to the committee, who nonetheless reserve the right to refuse depending on the resources available. In the summary, the applicant must indicate the type of presentation that he/she intends to give (duration, poster-type presentation, etc.). -------------------------- Applicants will be selected on the basis of an evaluation table filled in individually by each member of the selection committee. (The office keeps a list of the members of this committee which it can send to anybody interested). The summaries will be read anonymously, and replies will be given no later than December 1998. The applicant will then have until March 31 to supply a text in a previously defined format. The text must be in English, and accompanied by a summary in the author's own language. A French translation will be most helpful. A bibliography must also be attached. This text will be published, unmodified, in an anthology (the publishing work will be put out to tender). -------------------------- The official language of the meeting is French but all the texts must be provided with an English translation. Slides and posters should be presented in both languages if possible. Lectures will be simultaneously translated For any further questions, please contact G Muller, Mondial d’éthologie 112 rue du Faubourg de Roubaix, 59800 Lille France Fax number 33 3 20 314640 E-mail gmuller@nordnet.fr -------------------------------- Dr Joel Dehasse (dvm) ESVCE http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/esvce.htm From: IN%"jdehasse@arcadis.be" 16-SEP-1998 04:11:12.76 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology", IN%"amcb@soton.ac.uk" "Anne McBride", IN%"Dr.B.Schoening@t-online.de" "Barbara Schoening", IN%"b.w.knol@vet.uu.nl" "Bart Knol", IN%"Beatrice.DeSmet@rug.ac.be" "Beatrice De Smet", IN%"vanber@l CC: Subj: 5th ESVCE Annual Conference - Brussels 3rd of october 1998 5th ESVCE Annual Conference - Brussels 3rd of october 1998 ---------------------------------------------------------------- There are already more than 80 registrations. Do not be late to registrate. ------------------------------------- Simultaneous translation from French to English & English to French Traduction simultanée Anglais - Français & Français - Anglais Check on http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Plains/2913/981003.html -------------------------------------- Program. 9: 00-9:45 Charming breakfast offered by Sanofi - Petit déjeuner offert par Sanofi. 9:45-10:00 Luk Vangheluwe (President VDWE): Opening of the congress -(Ouverture du congrès) Morning Chairman: Rudy De Meester 10:00-10:45 Lenny Jelsma: The hyperactive-hypersensitive dog; medication and training techniques (Le syndrome d'hypersensibilité-hyperactivité chez le chien; médication et thérapies) 10:45-11:30 Petra Mertens: Medication on separation related disorders (Médication des troubles anxieux liés à un contexte de séparation) 11:30-12:15 Joël Dehasse: Stratégies thérapeutiques (Therapeutic strategies) 12:15-14:00 Lunch Afternoon Chairwoman: Christine Halsberghe 14:00-14:45 Anne Mc Bride: Intraspecific hierarchical disorders in dogs: identification and therapeutic strategies (Troubles hiérarchiques intraspécifiques chez le chien: identification et stratégies thérapeutiques) 14:45-15:30 Claude Beata: Actualités dans les troubles de la hiérarchie (Actualities in hierarchy disorders) 15:30-16:00 Coffee break 16:00-16:45 Patrick Pageat: Les troubles comportementaux chez le chiot: critères précoces de diagnostic (Behaviour disorders in puppies: criteria for an early diagnosis) 16:45-17:00 Luk Vangheluwe: Closure of the congress (Clôture du congrès) 17:00-17:45 ESVCE General Meeting 18:00- Drink offered by - drink offert par - Sanofi ------------------------------------------------- Organisation VDWE (Flemish Veterinary Study Group in Ethology), ESVCE & SAVAB Registration & Hotel, lodging Registration with HEBO, organisation society of the 1998 SAVAB national meeting: See the registration form, next page. Conference location De Montil Conference Centre Moortelstraat 8, B-1790 Essene - Tel.: +32 2 582 10 35 - Fax +32 2 582 32 78 It is situated between Brussels and Gent. Situation: entre Bruxelles et Gand. -------------------------------------------------------- REGISTRATION FORM To return to: (before September 22) 5th ESVCE meeting (SAVAB / VDWE) HEBO - Lydia Franken/Paul Sobrie Cogels Osylei 36, B-2600 Berchem - Fax : 03/281.10.88 - e-mail : hebo@hebo.be Last name & first name: Address: Phone & Fax VAT number The registration fee includes: Free access to all the congress rooms Free access to the commercial exhibition All Coffee breaks The lunch buffet-sandwiches Conference proceedings Registration fees are in Belgian Francs (BeF) (6% VAT included). ESVCE Saturday only ESVCE members 3500 Non-ESVCE members 4500 Graduated in 96, 97, 98: 2500 Students: 1900 HOTEL RESERVATION AT KEIZERSHOF: Single room 3250 BF x … nights = ................... BeF Double room 3950 BF x … nights = ................... BeF TERMS OF PAYMENT: Bank draft to N° 310-1105275-46 of SAVAB-CONGRESS Euro-check to HEBO, Cogels-Osylei 36, 2600 Berchem Cash on site + 500 BeF administration costs I duly authorise you to charge my credit card : Visa / Euro/Mastercard / American Express Name & first name on card: .......................................................... Card number Please check the number carefully Expiry date: ......................................... TOTAL TO PAY BeF (Registration + hotel) Signature: ----------------------------------------- Dr Joël Dehasse - ESVCE From: IN%"dagai@netvision.net.il" "Yuval Dagai" 16-SEP-1998 15:24:31.69 To: IN%"info@canines.com" "Canines", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: dogs "imprinting" on people --Boundary_(ID_yIyBnk3hMXQzBWkNBtO1fg) Content-type: text/plain; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi All, To any of you interested in "dogs imprinting". Imprinting is the effect of a critical period during the development of the animal's behaviour. Whether this effect is strong and distinctive is dependent on how long this critical period persists. The term "Imprinting" is generally used when the behaviour is very distinctive meaning when the critical period is very narrow. In geese (Lorenz main research subject) this critical period is up around 19 hours post hatching and measured in hours. In dogs, however, this period is between 4 to 12 weeks so, you can understand that it may be influenced by variable stimulation and be more complex. If anybody of you out there wants to read more about it add to the list begun with Scott & Fuller the book of M.W Fox it still a little bit old but it is also contain full description of the development of the neural system: Fox, M. W. (1971). Integrative Development of Brain in the Dog. Chicago: University of Chicago Press. Cheers, Yuval Canines wrote: > I agree with Peggy that Masson's book was light on empirical data. His > Ph.D. is in Sandscript. Sandscript? In any event, if by imprinting one > means that the dogs will follow the first animal they see, similar to what > Lorenz and Heinroth found, then yes they will "imprint." They will follow > people at certain ages as Scott and Fuller found. But a neuropsychologist > will argue this unscientific point. It is a well known fact in canine > behavior that if a pup grows up with a human family and is obedience trained > by them, his social behavior will tend to include humans rather than dogs. > Although there are always exceptions. Imprinting was never duplicated under > scientific conditions, to my knowledge. And isn't imprinting unselective > and maladaptive? If imprinting is neurally wired, perhaps someone out there > has a study the can point to. I too would like to see it. > > Robert L. DeFranco, Executive Director > Animal Behavior Center of New York > American Foundation for Animal Rescue, Inc. > New York City > http://www.canines.com > -----Original Message----- > From: peggy shunick > To: Jeff Rushen > Cc: ethology list > Date: Thursday, September 10, 1998 2:38 PM > Subject: Re: dogs "imprinting" on people > > >Jeff, > > > >Although I, like Arlene, do not believe imprinting is a good construct for > >looking at canine socialization to humans, I found Masson's book limited on > >hard data. > > > >> (or even if imprinting does occur in dogs!), or any articles > >> that have systematically examined how dogs become > >> socialized to people. I am aware of the old articles by Scott > >> (1963). > > > >Are you aware that Scott and Fuller's Genetics and the social behavior of > >the dog has recently been reprinted? > > > >I believe you are absolutely correct in saying that the literature is > >lacking in this area. For what it's worth, I conducted a pilot study for my > >MS that found tentative evidence for using a human developmental theory in > >which to view young puppy behavior toward humans. > > > >Please keep me posted on results of your inquiry! > >Peggy > > --Boundary_(ID_yIyBnk3hMXQzBWkNBtO1fg) Content-type: text/html; charset=us-ascii Content-transfer-encoding: 7bit Hi All,

To any of you interested in "dogs imprinting". Imprinting is the effect of a critical period during the development of the animal's behaviour. Whether this effect is strong and distinctive is dependent on how long this critical period persists. The term "Imprinting" is generally used when the behaviour is very distinctive meaning when the critical period is very narrow. In geese (Lorenz main research subject) this critical period is up around 19 hours post hatching and measured in hours. In dogs, however, this period is between 4 to 12 weeks so, you can understand that it may be influenced by variable stimulation and be more complex.
If anybody of you out there wants to read more about it add to the list begun with Scott & Fuller the book of M.W Fox it still a little bit old but it is also contain full description of the development of the neural system:
Fox, M. W. (1971). Integrative Development of Brain in the Dog.
Chicago: University of Chicago Press.
Cheers,
Yuval
 

Canines wrote:

I agree with Peggy that Masson's book was light on empirical data.  His
Ph.D. is  in Sandscript.  Sandscript?  In any event, if by imprinting one
means that the dogs will follow the first animal they see, similar to what
Lorenz and Heinroth found, then yes they will "imprint."  They will follow
people at certain ages as Scott and Fuller found.  But a neuropsychologist
will argue this unscientific point.    It is a well known fact in canine
behavior that if a pup grows up with a human family and is obedience trained
by them, his social behavior will tend to include humans rather than dogs.
Although there are always exceptions.  Imprinting was never duplicated under
scientific conditions, to my knowledge.  And isn't imprinting unselective
and maladaptive?  If imprinting is neurally wired, perhaps someone out there
has a study the can point to.  I too would like to see it.

Robert L. DeFranco, Executive Director
Animal Behavior Center of New York
American Foundation for Animal Rescue, Inc.
New York City
http://www.canines.com
-----Original Message-----
From: peggy shunick <arl3342@montana.com>
To: Jeff Rushen <rushenj@EM.AGR.CA>
Cc: ethology list <applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca>
Date: Thursday, September 10, 1998 2:38 PM
Subject: Re: dogs "imprinting" on people

>Jeff,
>
>Although I, like Arlene, do not believe imprinting is a good construct for
>looking at canine socialization to humans, I found Masson's book limited on
>hard data.
>
>> (or even if imprinting does occur in dogs!), or any articles
>> that have systematically examined how dogs become
>> socialized to people. I am aware of the old articles by Scott
>> (1963).
>
>Are you aware that Scott and Fuller's Genetics and the social behavior of
>the dog has recently been reprinted?
>
>I believe you are absolutely correct in saying that the literature is
>lacking in this area. For what it's worth, I conducted a pilot study for my
>MS that found tentative evidence for using a human developmental theory in
>which to view young puppy behavior toward humans.
>
>Please keep me posted on results of your inquiry!
>Peggy
>

  --Boundary_(ID_yIyBnk3hMXQzBWkNBtO1fg)-- From: IN%"k9acad@iafrica.com" "Glynne Anderson" 17-SEP-1998 04:34:01.39 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: Reply : Food/Motivation/Survival. Thank you to all who responded to my post on Food/Motivation/Survival - your interest was over overwhelming. Ian and I have endeavoured to meet all your requests privately however if you have not been contacted or have not had a reply yet please so not hestitate to let me know. Again - thank you for your inerest. Glynne > In response to all those who asked for more details regarding > Food/Motivation/Survival, we are pleased to pass on the following > information. > My (GA) findings are recorded in a paper delivered at the First > International Conference on Veterinary Behavioural Medicine held in > Birmingham, April 1-2, 1997. This paper is published in the > Proceedings thereof : > Anderson, G. and Marinier, S. The effect of food and restricted > exercise on behavioural problems in dogs. p. 183. > My motivation in writing this paper was to share my findings with > other behaviour consultants, since I believed that my approach, > although possibly radical, could be useful to others in the field > treating problems. > The findings were based on a common symptom I noticed running through > the vast majority of cases I attended. This symptom always indicated > an ingestion need. By trial and error, it became evident that food > adjustment produced positive results. Controversially, I also > discovered that keeping the animal quiet (as opposed to physically > stimulating or exercising it) during treatment accelerated these > positive results. > My research led me to a paper : > Hughes, B.O. and Duncan, I.J.H., 1988. The notion of ethological > "need", models of motivation and animal welfare. Anim. Behav., 36: > 1696-1707. > This paper supported my findings perfectly. My interpretation was > that if the animal was unable to rest, it would perform a variety of > deviant behaviours which would be seen as problem behaviour. > We (GA and IJHD) have been corresponding and agree that this topic is > well worthy of further study. We are planning some collaborative > experiments at the moment which should help to elucidate this > phenomenon. We would be very pleased to exchange further ideas if > anyone is interested. > Glynne Anderson & Ian J.H. Duncan > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Glynne Anderson > Canine Academy > 32 Hospital Rd., Hillcrest, 3610, > KwaZulu Natal, South Africa. > e-mail k9acad@iafrica.com > www: http://users.iafrica.com/k/k9/k9acad > & > Ian J.H. Duncan, > Col. K.L. Campbell Centre for the Study of Animal Welfare, > University of Guelph, > Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1, Canada > E-mail: iduncan@aps.uoguelph.ca > ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- > > > From: IN%"pherosynthese@wanadoo.fr" 18-SEP-1998 01:23:56.28 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: holidays Dear all, I am a vet living in Provence. I would like to make net-friends in Ireland so that we may eventually exchange houses for one or two weeks or welcome each other during the next summer. See you soon at ytessier@wanadoo.fr for further introduction. Y Tessier From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 18-SEP-1998 10:05:12.49 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggression in desexed male dogs Reply to message from desmith@picknowl.com.au of Tue, 15 Sep > >This is a multi-part message in MIME format. > >--Boundary_(ID_4w8JSBzamJCS1Cv93AJ56A) >Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > >I have been asked the question as to whether I have known of any cases = >of an increase in aggression after a male dog has been neutered. My = >experience has been that if the dog has had the proper conditioning in = >the critical period and providing hormone levels are normal very little = >aggression is experienced in particular to its owners and only mild = >hormonally stimulated dominance is shown to those not in the immediate = >family. A remarkable observation. Could you enlarge on the specifics of "proper conditioning in the critical period"? Thanks, DBC If a dog shows dominance aggression prior to neutering, = >neutering alone does not solve the problem.=20 >The point that was made was that there must have been some form of = >positive reinforcement of any following dominant behaviour for it to = >have increased. > > >Dennis Smith >Chandler Hill Pet Behaviour Clinic >190 Chandlers Hill Road=20 >Happy Valley. =20 >South Australia 5159 > >--Boundary_(ID_4w8JSBzamJCS1Cv93AJ56A) >Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" >Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > > > > > >http-equiv=3DContent-Type> > > > >
I have been asked the question as to = >whether I=20 >have known of any cases of an increase in aggression after a male dog = >has been=20 >neutered. My experience has been that if the dog has had the proper = >conditioning=20 >in the critical period and providing hormone levels are normal very = >little=20 >aggression is experienced in particular to its owners and only mild = >hormonally=20 >stimulated dominance is shown to those not in the immediate family. If a = >dog=20 >shows dominance aggression prior to neutering, neutering alone does not = >solve=20 >the problem.
>
The point that was made was that there must have = >been some=20 >form of positive reinforcement of any following dominant behaviour for = >it to=20 >have increased.
>
 
>
 
>
Dennis Smith
>
Chandler Hill Pet Behaviour Clinic
>
190 Chandlers Hill Road
>
Happy Valley. 
>
South Australia   = >5159
> >--Boundary_(ID_4w8JSBzamJCS1Cv93AJ56A)-- > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" 18-SEP-1998 10:48:58.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology (E-mail)" CC: Subj: now here's a REAL treat i haven't checked the veracity (voracity??) of the msg. but.... a bit of checking turned up the original version... http://www.animal-liberation.net/news/98/980916c1.html check your win95/nt machines for the dreaded 120K file (i.e., back orifice), and load the Aug5th or newer definitions file for your antivirus program (which you ought to do anyway) and nevernevernevernever open a file that someone you don't know (or even if you do) send you via email. i wonder if it has something to do with the critical period ..... gfb >========================== Begin Part 1 =========================== >Topic: Internet Message Header > >Folks: > >This is a heads up....no reason to freak. It's worthy of letting your >systems and network managers know what's up. >Our friends in Canada have pulled down from the 'net a page from the >Animal Liberation Front Frontline Information Service -- "Uncensored >News" -- that says the following: > >Internet Division of the Animal Liberation Front Announced Fall >Offensive > >Communique >September 16, 1998 > >The Internet Division of the Animal Liberation Front announced that the >Internet will no longer be safe haven for animal abusers to push their >bloody trades. > >We will take offensive action to damage animal abusers on the Internet >in any way possible. This may include Denial of Service attacks, virii >attacks, e-mail bombing, hacking web servers. We have already cracked >numerous computer systems and borrowed useful data, in the future we >will also destroy data. > >All animal abusers and animal abusing establishments on the Internet are >valid targets. > >In this day and age when most large animal abause establishments have a >presence on the Internet they use the world wide web for selling their >blood products and for pushing their warped ideas to the masses. As >other warriors free animals from concentration camp around the world, we >will take the war to the Internet. > >Our cell has already been active for one year and has under taken many >actions against animal abusers. Recently, other ALFID volunteer have >formed autonomous cells. > G. F. Barbato Phone: (814)865-4481 Graduate Program in Genetics FAX: (814)865-5691 Dept. Poultry Science Penn State http://gfb.cas.psu.edu University Park, PA 16802 http://genetics.cas.psu.edu From: IN%"mlos@ciudad.com.ar" "Mario Lopez Oliva" 20-SEP-1998 10:03:18.47 To: IN%"aave@fvet.uba.ar" CC: IN%"ecn@listproc.wsu.edu", IN%"mnrod@cs.com.uy" "Dra. Maria Noel", IN%"pnun@datamarkets.com.ar" "Dra Paula Nun", IN%"ponydoc@pacbell.net" "Dr. David Ramey", IN%"fmvzunesp@laser.com.br" "Dr. Luis Carlos Vulcano", IN%"lmonreal@cc.uab.es" "Dr. Lluis Subj: Forum Reenvien este mail a todos los colegas de habla hispana que se dedique a la atencion de caballos ya que cuanto mae seamos mas podremos enriquecernos Gracias Estimados Colegas: Me comunico con ustedes, pues tengo algo muy importante para decirles. Con mucho esfuerzo y dedicación hemos creado una lista de discusión o Forum en español, al que algunos de ustedes ya pertenecen. Este forum tiene la finalidad de darle a todos los especialistas en equinos de habla hispana y del mundo, un lugar donde poder hacer preguntas sobre casos clínicos y enviar respuestas, así como también de poner a disposición de todos los colegas un lugar de discusión y análisis de todos los temas relacionados con nuestra especialidad y profesión. El aporte de todos es fundamental para poder crecer y enriquecernos pues del intercambio de opiniones es de donde sale la verdad. En este mail se describe la forma de suscribirse al forum de la A.A.V.E (Asociación Argentina de Veterinaria Equina ) que funciona con el server de la Facultad de Veterinaria de la Universidad de Buenos Aires -ARGENTINA. Suscripción Enviar e-mail dirigido a MDaemon@fvet.uba.ar, dejar vacío el Título o Subject. En la primer línea del cuerpo del mensaje poner SUBSCRIBE aave Luego de esto ya comenzarán a recibir los mensajes, y para enviar ustedes mismos sus preguntas , respuestas o inquietudes deberán hacerlo al e-mail aave@fvet.uba.ar Como ven es muy sencillo, por favor necesitamos una activa participación ya que comenzamos a funcionar hace poco tiempo y estamos en pleno periodo de crecimiento, somos alrededor de 30 inscriptos y con vuestra suscripción esperamos ser muchos mas. Por favor envien este mensaje a vuestros colegas amigos para que podamos difrutar de tan maravilloso proyecto. Si alguien no entiende de que se trata esta prouesta por favor no duden en contactarme por correo electrónico. Muchas gracias por la atención, y difundan esto por el mundo pues será un placer para todos, estar en contacto diariamente. Saludos Dr Mario Lopez Oliva Tel 54-1-7849498 mlos@ciudad.com.ar ICQ# 6596304 From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 20-SEP-1998 15:50:23.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: Welfare - global picture Hi All I'm again seeking some help. I'm currently involved in the development of training packages on animal welfare for the staff in the organization for which I work, and for producers/farmers here in Queensland. We'd like to put the situation in Australia into a global context in regard to where Oz lies on the "concern about animal welfare" continuum. I can do this subjectively, but would like some information, if possible, to try to make it more objective. I thought things like the following would give an indication: * number of active animal welfare organizations * membership numbers of those organizations * government budget spent on welfare research, development and extension (R,D & E) * funding for RD&E available from animal welfare organizations * number of colleges/universities/other institutions where welfare is taught * existence of government legislation * existence of self-regulatory codes * number of people involved in welfare R,D&E Can anybody help me out? I know this is a big ask, but thought that there may be a few countries where this info. may have been collated at some time. Has anybody (Mark?) from ISAE collated the info. on membership recently? We did it back in 1991, but has it done since? If so, is there any chance of e-mailing to me a breakdown by country? Thanks to all in anticipation of your interest/help. Kind regards, Carol Animal Research Institute Locked Bag 4 Moorooka Qld 4105 email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au Tel: (0)7 3362 9416 Fax: (0)7 3362 9429 From: IN%"rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk" 21-SEP-1998 04:44:56.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology Mail Group" CC: Subj: Subscription Just to advise that I shall be unsubcribing from this list shortly, but only for a temporary period while PC is upgraded. Will resubscribe as soon as it is sorted! Best wishes Chris rc_rutt@ndirect.co.uk http://www.rc-rutt.ndirect.co.uk/ ICQ# 15984535 From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 21-SEP-1998 07:36:40.51 To: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Welfare - global picture Petherick, Carol wrote: > > Hi All > > I'm again seeking some help. I'm currently involved in the development of > training packages on animal welfare for the staff in the organization for > which I work, and for producers/farmers here in Queensland. We'd like to > put the situation in Australia into a global context in regard to where Oz > lies on the "concern about animal welfare" continuum. I can do this > subjectively, but would like some information, if possible, to try to make > it more objective. I thought things like the following would give an > indication: > * number of active animal welfare organizations > * membership numbers of those organizations > * government budget spent on welfare research, development and > extension (R,D & E) > * funding for RD&E available from animal welfare organizations > * number of colleges/universities/other institutions where welfare is > taught > * existence of government legislation > * existence of self-regulatory codes > * number of people involved in welfare R,D&E > > Can anybody help me out? I know this is a big ask, but thought that there > may be a few countries where this info. may have been collated at some time. > > Has anybody (Mark?) from ISAE collated the info. on membership recently? We > did it back in 1991, but has it done since? If so, is there any chance of > e-mailing to me a breakdown by country? > > Thanks to all in anticipation of your interest/help. > > Kind regards, > > Carol > > Animal Research Institute > Locked Bag 4 > Moorooka > Qld 4105 > > email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au > Tel: (0)7 3362 9416 > Fax: (0)7 3362 9429 I think this would be of interest to a lot of people. Nora From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 21-SEP-1998 08:48:12.12 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: canine depression Hi All! A while back, someone asked about the distinction between depression and boredom and the discussion centred on boredom. Question: what are behavioural indices of depression in canines? Specifically, I have been watching some seeing eye dogs who, to me, appear to be depressed. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"ernest.olfert@sask.usask.ca" "Ernest Olfert" 21-SEP-1998 08:51:57.54 To: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Welfare - global picture FYI, check out the book: Meyer, Christiane. Animal Welfare Legislation in Canada and Germany - A Comparison. Published by Peter Lang, Frankfurt. 1996. 285pp. ISBN 3-631-30733-0 US ISBN 0-8204-3214-8 The book presents a good (and fairly broad) comparison of Canada and Germany. It discusses various animal uses as well as legislative repsonsibilities, not just the laws themselves. Petherick, Carol wrote: > Hi All > > I'm again seeking some help. I'm currently involved in the development of > training packages on animal welfare for the staff in the organization for > which I work, and for producers/farmers here in Queensland. We'd like to > put the situation in Australia into a global context in regard to where Oz > lies on the "concern about animal welfare" continuum. I can do this > subjectively, but would like some information, if possible, to try to make > it more objective. I thought things like the following would give an > indication: > * number of active animal welfare organizations > * membership numbers of those organizations > * government budget spent on welfare research, development and > extension (R,D & E) > * funding for RD&E available from animal welfare organizations > * number of colleges/universities/other institutions where welfare is > taught > * existence of government legislation > * existence of self-regulatory codes > * number of people involved in welfare R,D&E > > Can anybody help me out? I know this is a big ask, but thought that there > may be a few countries where this info. may have been collated at some time. > > Has anybody (Mark?) from ISAE collated the info. on membership recently? We > did it back in 1991, but has it done since? If so, is there any chance of > e-mailing to me a breakdown by country? > > Thanks to all in anticipation of your interest/help. > > Kind regards, > > Carol > > Animal Research Institute > Locked Bag 4 > Moorooka > Qld 4105 > > email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au > Tel: (0)7 3362 9416 > Fax: (0)7 3362 9429 -- Bye for now. Ernest D. Olfert Ernest D. Olfert, DVM, MSc Director, Animal Resources Centre University of Saskatchewan 120 Maintenance Road Saskatoon, SK S7N 5C4 Canada telephone: 306-966-4124 fax: 306-966-8850 email: ernest.olfert@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 21-SEP-1998 10:33:04.67 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: canine depression Hi Deb, A couple of years ago I spoke at an APDT meeting in Phoenix. Many attendees and a few trainers had their dogs there. One of my group said she was going to have to leave the main hall during a break. She said the dogs there were so _depressed_ it was making her feel ill. I thought a term that better fit the dogs' appearance might have been _repression_. As a human psychiatric term, _an unconscious mental mechanism wherein unacceptable desires, memories and thoughts are excluded from consciousness_. A variation of _learned helplessness_ wherein the dogs seem to be in circumstances over which they have no control. In some service dogs, spontaneous orientation reflex reactions to incidental stimuli around them seem to be lacking: Only those to which they have been _trained_ are noticed. Just a thought. Bill Campbell billcamp@cdsnet.net http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/ >Hi All! > A while back, someone asked about the distinction between >depression and boredom and the discussion centred on boredom. > >Question: what are behavioural indices of depression in canines? >Specifically, I have been watching some seeing eye dogs who, to me, >appear to be depressed. > > >Deb > > > > >dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > >Deborah A. McWilliams >Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science >University of Guelph >Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 21-SEP-1998 10:43:07.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression Hi Bill! > A couple of years ago I spoke at an APDT meeting in Phoenix. Many attendees > and a few trainers had their dogs there. One of my group said she was going > to have to leave the main hall during a break. She said the dogs there were > so _depressed_ it was making her feel ill. Not an unusual response. I tend to feel greatly concerned when I see these dogs. > I thought a term that better fit the dogs' appearance might have been > _repression_. As a human psychiatric term, _an unconscious mental mechanism > wherein unacceptable desires, memories and thoughts are excluded from > consciousness_. The dogs are trained to exclude certain behaviours? I could see this. These dogs are trained even in their foster homes (first year of life) to sit still for long periods of time. Many behaviours are discouraged that would be inappropriate during their working life (once trained as guide dogs). I don't necessarily think this is true for hearing ear dogs but most other guide dogs may be affected. But would it initially be repression and develop into depression? > A variation of _learned helplessness_ wherein the dogs seem to be in > circumstances over which they have no control. If so, learned helplessness is a welfare concern. In some service dogs, > spontaneous orientation reflex reactions to incidental stimuli around them > seem to be lacking: Only those to which they have been _trained_ are noticed. Yes. These dogs seem to lack some basic reactions. I have seen some that appear to lose attentive skills during long periods of inactivity (e.g., while in a meeting with their person) and have to be "jerked" to attention by their person who has stood up and is ready to leave. > > Just a thought. > > Bill Campbell > billcamp@cdsnet.net > http://www.webtrail.com/petbehavior/ > Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"research@scz.org" "Emily Weiss" 21-SEP-1998 12:41:51.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression My masters work was on the selection of service dogs, and I am working with the Delta Society working on the development of a selection test for service dogs chosen from a shelter environment. Dogs that are appropriate for service work are those that have a relatively low reactivity to stimuli. This is true for guide and wheelchair assistance dogs. Hearing ear dogs however, should be quite reactive to stimuli. (The training process is much different for hearing ear dogs.). One can imagine that it would be quite inappropriate to begin training a dog that is highly sensitive to movement (such as a prey item or even leaves blowing in the wind), touch or sound. These dogs often become more sensitive to, as opposed to habituating to certain stimuli. So, you are starting out with an organism that is less reactive than most. Couple this with a training process that includes a tremendous amount of habituation and generalization, and one is likely to end up with a dog that is quite "ho-hum." This is in part due to training, but is also due to developmental changes in the brain that cause the dog to react differently to stimuli. I am not stating that these dogs are not "bored" or "depressed," but that maybe much of what is being discussed here can be explained more parsimoniously. Emily Weiss (all but dissertation...) Curator of Behavior and Research Sedgwick County Zoo Wichita Ks, 67212 (316) 942-2212 ex. 257 From: IN%"scripto@azstarnet.com" "Debi Davis" 21-SEP-1998 14:57:09.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Depression or Boredom? Deb Asks: >Question: what are behavioural indices of depression in canines? >Specifically, I have been watching some seeing eye dogs who, to me, >appear to be depressed. Deb, what specifically are you seeing? What body language are the dogs displaying that make you feel they may be depressed? Are you noticing this when they are working, or out of harness? Often, a working dog will pay absolutely no attention to anything else but their handler: this is how they are trained. To the person not used to observing service animals, this might be taken for depression: the dog does not seem to be alert, responsive to environment, is mellow. If you observed the dogs acting depressed, was it while they were working? Was it before or after a cue/command was given? Did you see the animal waver before responding to the cue/command? I have never yet observed what I would call depression in a dog. I have seen a lot of boredom, however. And certainly if a guide dog is not given enough physical exercise and mental stimulation, then he could be bored to tears. Keep in mind that most guide dogs are still trained with heavy, heavy compulsion, and that they have a real vested interest in not exploring their environment while working: it brings pain. Couple the fear of pain with the boredom of not getting adequate exercise and mental stimulation (no active learning) and it's no surprise a dog would be showing major boredom symptoms, which might be seen as depression. An interesting study might be to compare compulsion trained service animals with those trained by pure shaping. Also, to compare those dogs who were not only shaped without physical correction, but are allowed to be full members of the family, and not crated when not working. I have seen phenomenal attitudinal changes in dogs shaped instead of forced during training. Especially when the handler (person with disability) understands a modicum of learning theory and can actively participate in a program of lifelong learning for the dog. Debi Davis Tucson, AZ From: IN%"golden@cia.com.au" "Golden" 21-SEP-1998 18:36:35.15 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression Hi All! A while back, someone asked about the distinction between depression and boredom and the discussion centred on boredom. Hi Debra, I can only opine on this subject given my observations. At the time advice was offered by a human psychiatrist who knew nothing about canine behaviour. One was a detector dog who endured a trauma while working.A happy go lucky animal, he became anxious to specific visual, aural, scent & motion cues. On desens to specific cues he generalised responses across a range of (to me) unpredictable stim, & at times exhibited frenetic escape responses which appeared & disappeared faster than the cause could be determined. My psych friend immediately *diagnosed* depression ie, Post Traumatic Stress Disorder, & recommended anti depressants ASAP. The dog's hypervigalence to stim appeared to go into extinction after which he *enjoyed* his work for a few months. A spontaneous aggressive response to a previously joy eliciting stim resulted in immediate retirement. I often wonder whether appropriate treatment during the period of apparent *normality* would have lead to any sort of recovery. He's now a perfectly normal, happy pet dog who's only fear in life is cats indicating his *depression* was probably environment specific! Other *depressed* animals included a whippet with chronic back injury whose only symptom of injury was *depression* - lethargy, weight loss, disinterest in all activites, loss of appetite, over 6 mth time span. Pain? Depression? Both? Humans with chronic pain are often treated for depression. I've also heard reports of Sight Hounds starving themselves to death & nearly so in pounds/ quarantine stations etc despite best efforts of carers to provide their needs. 2 or 3 extremely aggressive dogs I've met struck me as depressed 1st, aggressive 2nd. Of intelligent & reactive breeds, they led lives that in no way met basic needs for mental & phys stim. Before mentioned sight hounds may have rolled up into balls awaiting the enevitable, but these dog's behavioural rep. seemed to demand environmental interaction. Rarely destructive or even poorly behaved at home (in the absence of visitors) they *lazed* around apparently storing frustration to vent on any innocent creature not a member of their *family*, & went to great lengths to drag owners in hot pursuit of victims too far distant to be considered within critical distance. My own very subjective observations indicated fear had nothing to do with such responses, though it may have originally shaped the behaviour, since their attitudes were rather reminiscent of Hannibal Lecter. Closest thing to psychotic I've observed in the non human animal world. Behav mod & envir enrichment had little impact, but I suspect antidepressants might have had euthanasia not intervened. Cheers, Anita Goulding Sydney, Australia From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 21-SEP-1998 20:07:35.14 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression In a message dated 98-09-21 12:55:52 EDT, you write: I would like to make sure that I am understanding the direction of the exchange below correctly. Am I to understand that what is being proposed here is that these dogs are depressed because they are trained, and that is an animal welfare issue? Does this mean the dogs should not be trained? Please clarify. Thank you, Kathy Hughes << Hi Bill! > A couple of years ago I spoke at an APDT meeting in Phoenix. Many attendees > and a few trainers had their dogs there. One of my group said she was going > to have to leave the main hall during a break. She said the dogs there were > so _depressed_ it was making her feel ill. Not an unusual response. I tend to feel greatly concerned when I see these dogs. > I thought a term that better fit the dogs' appearance might have been > _repression_. As a human psychiatric term, _an unconscious mental mechanism > wherein unacceptable desires, memories and thoughts are excluded from > consciousness_. The dogs are trained to exclude certain behaviours? I could see this. These dogs are trained even in their foster homes (first year of life) to sit still for long periods of time. Many behaviours are discouraged that would be inappropriate during their working life (once trained as guide dogs). I don't necessarily think this is true for hearing ear dogs but most other guide dogs may be affected. But would it initially be repression and develop into depression? > A variation of _learned helplessness_ wherein the dogs seem to be in > circumstances over which they have no control. If so, learned helplessness is a welfare concern. In some service dogs, > spontaneous orientation reflex reactions to incidental stimuli around them > seem to be lacking: Only those to which they have been _trained_ are noticed. Yes. These dogs seem to lack some basic reactions. I have seen some that appear to lose attentive skills during long periods of inactivity (e.g., while in a meeting with their person) and have to be "jerked" to attention by their person who has stood up and is ready to leave. >> From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 22-SEP-1998 07:21:26.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression Reply to Emily Weiss: Good morning Emily! Did you work with Dr. Beilharz? > My masters work was on the selection of service dogs, and I am working > with the Delta Society working on the development of a selection test for > service dogs chosen from a shelter environment. > Dogs that are appropriate for service work are those that have a relatively low reactivity to stimuli. Is it low reactivity to stimuli or ability to cope with various stimuli? For example, low reactivity may imply some neurological or attentional deficits. This is true for guide and wheelchair assistance > dogs. Hearing ear dogs however, should be quite reactive to stimuli. (The > training process is much different for hearing ear dogs.). One can imagine > that it would be quite inappropriate to begin training a dog that is highly > sensitive to movement (such as a prey item or even leaves blowing in the > wind), touch or sound. These dogs often become more sensitive to, as > opposed to habituating to certain stimuli. Is it not selective attenuation? Channeling attentiveness to specific stimuli like door bells, phones, etc. Is this why they choose the smaller breeds (terriers, norder collies, etc)? > So, you are starting out with an organism that is less reactive than > most. Couple this with a training process that includes a tremendous amount > of habituation and generalization, and one is likely to end up with a dog > that is quite "ho-hum." This is in part due to training, but is also due to > developmental changes in the brain that cause the dog to react differently > to stimuli. Yes, I would agree that the intensive training these dogs receive (and the early age in which it begins) probably affects neurological development. For example, some neurological pathways will be more developed than others. > I am not stating that these dogs are not "bored" or "depressed," but > that maybe much of what is being discussed here can be explained more > parsimoniously. I would question if these dogs are bored. They usually lead an active life compared to most dogs. There is also the bonus of being able to go where and when your owner does. Lots of walking. The behaviour (or lack of it) in some guide dogs appear to create a cognitive dissonance in observers. The dogs perform a valuable service and the owners are very dependent on them. Yet, humans observing them feel uncomfortable (the one lady apparently could not wait to leave). Why? So what are the behavioural indices of a depressed dog? Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 22-SEP-1998 07:39:08.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Depression or Boredom? Hi Debi! > Date sent: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 14:01:27 -0700 > From: Debi Davis > Subject: Re: Canine Depression or Boredom? > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Debi asks: > Deb, what specifically are you seeing? What body language are the dogs > displaying that make you feel they may be depressed? I don't know if the body language that I am seeing means the dog is depressed hence my question, what behavioural indices mean depression in a canine. What I see: 1) The eyes - appear to be dulled and not scanning or perceiving the environment 2) Droopy tails!!! This is quite common. Not tucked in, but usually down. 3) Heads - held down which seems counterintuitive to the job I think the guide dog is doing 4) Sitting or lying down is usually down in slo-mo as is getting up. > Are you noticing this when they are working, or out of harness? > Often, a working dog will pay absolutely no attention to anything else but > their handler: this is how they are trained I have only seen retired guide dogs out of harness so I cannot answer your first question. I am surprised to hear that guide dogs are not supposed to attend to anything but their handler. Are they not supposed to monitor the environment? . To the person not used to > observing service animals, this might be taken for depression: the dog does > not seem to be alert, responsive to environment, is mellow. Yes, the dogs I have seen do not seem to be alert or responsive to the environment which does not seem to go well with the job of a guide dog. I don't know IF what I see is depression - what would you say are behavioural indices of depression in canines? > If you observed the dogs acting depressed, was it while they were working? > Was it before or after a cue/command was given? Did you see the animal > waver before responding to the cue/command? I have usually seen these dogs only in training or working (I live in a training school area). Again, I don't know if what I have seen = depression. I have seen some guide dogs who need two or three commands before moving from a sit or stand position. This appear to be from lack of awareness. For example, the dog appears not to register the jerk or vocal command until the third time at which point it slowly begins executing what was asked of him/her. I would not describe this as wavering - the dog did not appear to register the command until the third attempt. > I have never yet observed what I would call depression in a dog. I have > seen a lot of boredom, however. And certainly if a guide dog is not given > enough physical exercise and mental stimulation, then he could be bored to > tears. What are the behavioural indices of boredom in a canine? > Keep in mind that most guide dogs are still trained with heavy, heavy > compulsion, and that they have a real vested interest in not exploring > their environment while working: it brings pain. Could you explain? > I have seen phenomenal attitudinal changes in dogs shaped instead of forced > during training. Especially when the handler (person with disability) > understands a modicum of learning theory and can actively participate in a > program of lifelong learning for the dog. My understanding is that persons who use guide dogs may not have any dog experience beyond their training to use the dog at the training school. Is this true and would this affect the dog? I have also been told there are a large percentage of "returns" (failures or needing retraining) but some schools have immense returns while others have very little. Lke you suggested, it may be interesting to compare training approaches with these and other problems. To everyone: I keep repeating myself but my question has not yet been answered: What are the behavioural indices of depression in canines? Or, how about the negative approach - what behaviours should we see if a dog is NOT depressed? Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 22-SEP-1998 07:50:21.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression > Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:36:44 +1000 > From: Golden > Subject: Re: canine depression > To: applied ethology Hello Anita! > One was a detector dog who endured a trauma while working.A happy go lucky > animal, he became anxious to specific visual, aural, scent & motion cues. One behavioural indice is anxiety? > Disorder, & recommended anti depressants ASAP. The dog's hypervigalence to > stim appeared to go into extinction after which he *enjoyed* his work for a > few months. A spontaneous aggressive response to a previously joy eliciting > stim resulted in immediate retirement. Was the drug prozac? Was the aggressive response related to the drug? > Other *depressed* animals included a whippet with chronic back injury whose > only symptom of injury was *depression* - lethargy, weight loss, disinterest > in all activites, loss of appetite, over 6 mth time span. Other indices are lethargy, weight loss, disinterest, loss of appetie? Pain? Depression? > Both? Humans with chronic pain are often treated for depression. Yes - the chicken and the egg quandry. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 22-SEP-1998 07:57:36.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression > Date sent: Mon, 21 Sep 1998 22:07:08 -0400 (EDT) > From: Kattykorn2@aol.com > Subject: Re: canine depression > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Hello Kathy!! > In a message dated 98-09-21 12:55:52 EDT, you write: > > I would like to make sure that I am understanding the direction of the > exchange below correctly. Am I to understand that what is being proposed here > is that these dogs are depressed because they are trained, and that is an > animal welfare issue? Does this mean the dogs should not be trained? Please > clarify. I am not proposing anything (yet). I have asked a question: what are the behavioural indices of depression in canines? I ask the question because I have observed guide dogs (for the blind) who seem to lack awareness of their surroundings, have dulled eyes that appear not to perceive the world, hold their tails downward (not tucked in, down), hold their heads down and move in slo mo when getting up from a lay or sit position. Sometimes they seem to need two to three commands before they even register the command and act upon it. Re: an animal welfare issue It was suggested (by BIll, below) that the behaviour may stem from learned helplessness which develops from a loss of control in one's environment and an inability to escape aversive stimuli. I suggested that if this was true, then would it not be a welfare issue? If the dogs are depressed, would it be a welfare issue? Deb > << Hi Bill! > > > A couple of years ago I spoke at an APDT meeting in Phoenix. Many attendees > > and a few trainers had their dogs there. One of my group said she was going > > to have to leave the main hall during a break. She said the dogs there were > > so _depressed_ it was making her feel ill. > > Not an unusual response. I tend to feel greatly concerned when I > see these dogs. > > > I thought a term that better fit the dogs' appearance might have been > > _repression_. As a human psychiatric term, _an unconscious mental mechanism > > wherein unacceptable desires, memories and thoughts are excluded from > > consciousness_. > > The dogs are trained to exclude certain behaviours? I could > see this. These dogs are trained even in their foster homes > (first year of life) to sit still for long periods of time. Many > behaviours are discouraged that would be inappropriate during > their working life (once trained as guide dogs). I don't > necessarily think this is true for hearing ear dogs but most other > guide dogs may be affected. > But would it initially be repression and develop into depression? > > > > A variation of _learned helplessness_ wherein the dogs seem to be in > > circumstances over which they have no control. > > If so, learned helplessness is a welfare concern. > > > In some service dogs, > > spontaneous orientation reflex reactions to incidental stimuli around them > > seem to be lacking: Only those to which they have been _trained_ are > noticed. > > Yes. These dogs seem to lack some basic reactions. I have seen > some that appear to lose attentive skills during long periods of > inactivity (e.g., while in a meeting with their person) and have to > be "jerked" to attention by their person who has stood up and is > ready to leave. >> > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"scripto@azstarnet.com" "Debi Davis" 22-SEP-1998 09:32:28.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Depression or Boredom? Deb writes: > I don't know if the body language that I am seeing means the dog >is depressed hence my question, what behavioural indices mean >depression in a canine. > > What I see: 1) The eyes - appear to be dulled and not scanning or >perceiving the environment 2) Droopy tails!!! This is quite common. >Not tucked in, but usually down. 3) Heads - held down which seems >counterintuitive to the job I think the guide dog is doing 4) >Sitting or lying down is usually down in slo-mo as is getting up. Eyes not scanning the enviornment, drooping tails, heads in a down poisition and being slow to move from one position to another--may be that the dog is relaxed or bored. Certainly even service dogs on duty have times when they are totally relaxed, like in a movie, during dinner in a restaurant, during classes where they must stay in one position quietly. I work with Papillons, and they move from asleep to moving at warp speed in a hotflash. When they are in a relaxed state, they look much like you described. And the reason I responded to this post is because several times breeders have asked me if my dog was depressed, and if I punished him too much. My dog was seemingly oblivious to their dogs' antics, though they were hopping around at their owner's feet every moment. My cue to "turn on" and begin watching for a cue is, "Boogie Time!" By the time "Boog.." is out of my mouth, my dog (either of my service dogs) leap up into a sit position, make eye contact, ears become erect and tail cascades over their backs. The difference in their appearance is quite remarkable. And because my dogs get so much mental activity (5-7 free shaping sessions a day) and physical activity (besides accompanying me in all public places, they also get two long dog walks each day), I know they are not depressed or bored. But they sure LOOK like it when they are "at ease." But if you saw either of my dogs in a restaurant, totally "at ease" , suddenly pop into alert mode, ready for their cue to "fetch" when my fork or spoon falls to the floor, you could see their body language change instantaneously. >>I am surprised to hear that guide dogs are not supposed to attend >to anything but their handler. Are they not supposed to monitor the >environment? << Yes and No. Guide dogs monitor the environment when they are in harness, but when out of harness, they aren't on duty. A good many have been trained only to do guiding, and don't do other things like retrievals. Our dogs just can't be expected to be "on" all the time. But as I mentioned above, even those dogs seeminly totally oblivious to their environment can come to live with shocking speed. I asked: >> If you observed the dogs acting depressed, was it while they were working? >> Was it before or after a cue/command was given? Did you see the animal >> waver before responding to the cue/command? Deb responded: > I have usually seen these dogs only in training or working (I >live in a training school area). Again, I don't know if what I have >seen = depression. > I have seen some guide dogs who need two or three commands before >moving from a sit or stand position. This appear to be from lack of >awareness. For example, the dog appears not to register the jerk or >vocal command until the third time at which point it slowly begins >executing what was asked of him/her. I would not describe this as >wavering - the dog did not appear to register the command until the >third attempt.<< When a dog takes two or three commands to respond, I'd say it was a training/handling problem more than lack of awareness. And yes, if the dog didn't seem to register the command until the third attempt, then it probably was trained that way. Think of how many pet owners say, "Fido, Sit! Sit! Sit!" Fido knows that "Fido Sit" is now only a preface to the rest of the command, which includes two more "sits" before it was to be performed. My gut reaction when I see this (and yes, it happens a lot in service dog work too) is to ask, "Just how many animals are you training, here?" And if the blood pressure of the handler escalates each time, I'd assume the dog could learn really fast how to tune out and ignore all but the command issued with the most fury and conviction. And since in the scenario you described where the dog is not registering the first few leash jerks, the dog has, in my estimation, come to accept that this is just another strange human behavior which they have learned to tolerate. I wrote:> >> Keep in mind that most guide dogs are still trained with heavy, heavy >> compulsion, and that they have a real vested interest in not exploring >> their environment while working: it brings pain. Deb Asks: > Could you explain? If you were in a dance class, and the instructor was showing you how to do a certain step, and each time you did it incorrectly, you got smacked across the face, how much enthusiasm would you muster up for learning this new step? If, instead of correcting your mistakes so harshly, the instructor instead used a verbal marker of "Good!" at the instant you did something right, would you think your attitude might improve markedly? Guide dogs are traditionally trained like the former. They are not hit, but they are given toe hitches, ear pinches, twists with the choke or prong collar, and other forms of punishment to train new behaviors. They are not given an opportunity to make mistakes without heavy fallout. Learning is not necessarily joyful or wondrous. It is endurable. And yes, there are many washouts. >>My understanding is that persons who use guide dogs may not have >any dog experience beyond their training to use the dog at the >training school. Is this true and would this affect the dog?<< Yes, this is true, and yes it affects the dog! How could it not? Like the handler you described earlier giving multiple commands: the dog learns to respond with disinterest, because responding in other ways was no more reinforcing. I have yet to see an animal so well trained that someone with no dog handling skills could not mess it up. Everything we do and say reinforces something, according to the laws of learning. I have seen an appalling number of program-trained dogs (guide and service) who have been handled abominably and who did not react as quickly as I would expect my dogs to react. Certainly handler knowledge on dog behavior is imperative, and I feel the students get pitifully little of this, and have little clue how to "fix" problems that may arise. So they have to send the dog back to get "fixed." Sometimes the dogs are so confused they are washed out at that point. Schools often call these dogs temperamentally unsuitable, but I feel it's far more behavioral. We have much emperical evidence now that shaping can produce a well-adjusted animal, even if the animal was temperament tested "unsuitable". I have a dog so soft it would have washed out of any service or guide program, but through shaping and incremental desensitization, and without the use of any punishment, the dog is an excellent working service animal. I have seen many of these dogs come through our training center, who have come out the other end as excellent working dogs. This is a key point, Deb, and I applaud you for mentioning it. The handler's knowledge is extremely important for the continued success of the team. I often think dogs are paired with people who really don't want to live with a dog at all, and who might be better served with a non-living piece of durable medical equipment. I think we may need to cull more handlers (or educate them!) then cull more dogs from programs. In our program, the handlers are taught to train the dogs themselves. Each week they receive more and more learning theory, and work on shaping their animals during the rest of the week. It's amazing to me what people can and do absorb in a few short weeks, when they work at it. And these are the folks who now have the tools to reshape problem behaviors before they get out of control. These are folks who may never in their lives know what "applied ethology" means, but by God they know how to use an event marker and shape their dogs to do amazing things. >> I have also been told there are a large percentage of "returns" >(failures or needing retraining) but some schools have immense >returns while others have very little. Lke you suggested, it may be >interesting to compare training approaches with these and other >problems.<< YES! So true, so sadly true. But: there is a bright light happening here in service dog training. Bob and Marion (Breeland) Bailey are now working with the largest service dog organization in the country--CCI--to develop a clicker training program. So far, I have heard nothing but good reports. The trainers may not be happy--it's very hard to switch from coersion to shaping, and sure means you have to drop your ego on the roadside. But the dogs and the students are blossoming. Paws With a Cause, another major program, is also adopting shaping over coersion. Many smaller programs, like ours, have switched years ago and see remarkable changes. In our case (we are the oldest service dog training facility in the country), we are now able to certify dogs in roughly half the time! And the dogs are so happy--the classes are stress-free and everyone has a great time. Learning has become great fun for the dogs, and I think it shows in their work. Clicker trainers never have to say, "WAtch me!" to get their dog's attention: the dogs are constantly watching them to see when they might be reinforced: they don't want to miss the opportunity. >What are the behavioural indices of depression in canines? < Deb, I know you keep asking it, and it's a good question. Just wish I had an answer. I guess we'd have to define depression in a specific context, then decide if it was depression were seeing or a response to ineffective training and an under-educated handler. I think there are a lot of variables here. From: IN%"ernest.olfert@sask.usask.ca" "Ernest Olfert" 22-SEP-1998 09:37:16.97 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Dog behaviour question Hi. A friend not on Applied-Ethology would like some suggestions for resolving a pet dog defecating-in-an-unacceptable-place problem. Here's the situation: The dog is a 3-4yr old shepherd/malamute cross, female, neutered. It was adopted by the family about 6 months ago. The household consists of a husband and wife; their daughter with a small granddaughter live in a lower level suite. Occasionally the dog used to go downstairs and defecate in a particular room that is/was used for changing the baby. The family's solution was to keep the door closed to that room. Recently that behaviour has become much more frequent; now the minute the door is left open the dog goes and defecates in that particular spot. The dog is a very good natured dog, loves to go for walks, and will readily go outside for normal elimination behaviour. So far there has not been a consultation with a ( real :-} ) veterinary ethologist to try to deal with this. Any suggestions on the reason(s) for the change in behaviour, and any suggestions for resolving the problem? I will pass on any comments received. Thank you. -- Bye for now. Ernest D. Olfert Ernest D. Olfert, DVM, MSc Director, Animal Resources Centre University of Saskatchewan 120 Maintenance Road Saskatoon, SK S7N 5C4 Canada telephone: 306-966-4124 fax: 306-966-8850 email: ernest.olfert@sask.usask.ca From: IN%"MARYB@LAB0.VET.ED.ac.uk" "Mary Booth" 22-SEP-1998 10:47:01.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Re:recent behav. job ad. Dear Colleagues, Could whoever posted the Behaviour teaching/research job in the US please kindly repeat the posting to me. Thank you very much, Mary Booth MaryB@lab0.vet.ed.ac.uk (please note lab zero, not lab Oh) From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 22-SEP-1998 12:54:21.67 To: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: canine depression Hi Kathy, et. al. Interesting interpretation. I've had lots of chats about the _phenomena_ below, with people from all sorts of disciplines. One person defined it [the apparently non-responsive demeanor] as a POW syndrome. As to training and animal welfare, I truly belive that dog training _methodology_ should be an animal welfare issue. When we read that a dog trainer sticks her fingers down a student's nippy puppy's throat, causing a gag response, then picks up the pup and shakes it, ala widely published methodology, and the pup collapses and dies, etc., etc., ad infinitum. Just a thought, Bill Campbell >In a message dated 98-09-21 12:55:52 EDT, you write: > >I would like to make sure that I am understanding the direction of the >exchange below correctly. Am I to understand that what is being proposed here >is that these dogs are depressed because they are trained, and that is an >animal welfare issue? Does this mean the dogs should not be trained? Please >clarify. > >Thank you, > >Kathy Hughes > ><< Hi Bill! > > > A couple of years ago I spoke at an APDT meeting in Phoenix. Many attendees > > and a few trainers had their dogs there. One of my group said she was going > > to have to leave the main hall during a break. She said the dogs there were > > so _depressed_ it was making her feel ill. > > Not an unusual response. I tend to feel greatly concerned when I > see these dogs. > > > I thought a term that better fit the dogs' appearance might have been > > _repression_. As a human psychiatric term, _an unconscious mental mechanism > > wherein unacceptable desires, memories and thoughts are excluded from > > consciousness_. > > The dogs are trained to exclude certain behaviours? I could > see this. These dogs are trained even in their foster homes > (first year of life) to sit still for long periods of time. Many > behaviours are discouraged that would be inappropriate during > their working life (once trained as guide dogs). I don't > necessarily think this is true for hearing ear dogs but most other > guide dogs may be affected. > But would it initially be repression and develop into depression? > > > > A variation of _learned helplessness_ wherein the dogs seem to be in > > circumstances over which they have no control. > > If so, learned helplessness is a welfare concern. > > > In some service dogs, > > spontaneous orientation reflex reactions to incidental stimuli around them > > seem to be lacking: Only those to which they have been _trained_ are >noticed. > > Yes. These dogs seem to lack some basic reactions. I have seen > some that appear to lose attentive skills during long periods of > inactivity (e.g., while in a meeting with their person) and have to > be "jerked" to attention by their person who has stood up and is > ready to leave. >> > > From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 22-SEP-1998 13:12:12.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Canine depressions I am not so sure that tail and head down are signs of depression in dogs. Some dogs will hold their tail down when relaxed and head down as well. At times it reminds me of horses that are at rest, or cows that are "loafing". When a dog does not respond to a command the first time, I agree that the training methods need to be explored. The dog may have learned that a response the first time is not needed. I would image depression in dogs to be accompanied by inappetance, unwillingness to engage in "dog" enjoyable activities like walks, opportunities to "sniff" and "mark", in other words a lack of species typical responses. This is often what is seen in dogs that appear to be mourning the loss of a house-mate or family member. Lack of response to trained or supposedly trained commands may indicate a training problem, not depression. Lack of responses to trained commands can also be stress induced if the animal is unsure of the contingencies and reward system-again the problem with compulsion training. Debbie Horwitz, DVM, DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations St. Louis, Missouri From: IN%"pedrom@servidor.unam.mx" "Cecilia Pedernera" 22-SEP-1998 14:24:44.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Enquiry on a PhD on dolphins Hi All, I am a veterinary student at the National University of Mexico (U.N.A.M.). I will finish my DVM this year and I am planing to do my PhD in Coping mechanisims in captive dolphins ( behaviour, stress,health, welfare) I haven=B4t been able to detect experts working on this area.=20 Could any one please help me with names and addresses of people working in the area? Thanks in advance for the information and hope to hear about you soon. Cecilia Pedernera -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- Cecilia Pedernera Romano Dpto. de Etologia y Villa Olimpica 16-403 Fauna Silvestre.=20 Tlalpan CP 14020 Facultad de Medicina=20 MEXICO DF Veterinaria y Zootecnia U.N.A.M. e-mail: pedrom@servidor.unam.mx -*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*-*- From: IN%"Dr.B.Schoening@t-online.de" 22-SEP-1998 16:51:29.96 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: music and horses Hi everybody, a musician asked me if there is any literature on the effect of music on horses or animals in general. He writes his disserattion on "music in the circus" and came along this question when looking especially at horses in training and showing. Not that he does not know that speed and rhythmn in a show are adjusted according to the horses movements but he is interested in the topic in a more scientific way. I would appreciate any information thanks in advance Barbara Dr. Barbara Schöning Fachtierärztin für Verhaltenskunde Veterinary Behaviour Consultant Phone +4940 6087 5351 Saselbergweg 32 Fax +4940 6087 5350 22395 Hamburg Germany From: IN%"golden@cia.com.au" "Golden" 22-SEP-1998 17:10:08.22 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression Hi Deborah, One behavioural indice is anxiety? In animals with predisposition for environmental reactivity I think so. Was the drug prozac? Was the aggressive response related to the drug? My Psychiatrist friend came onto the scene as the dog was responding nicely to desensitisation/counter conditioning to anxiety provoking stimuli. SSRI's weren't available then, so he recommended tricyclics even though the behavioural modification appeared to be extremely successful. In those days I knew it all & in blissful ignorance failed to heed the advice of a physician with 25 yrs experience, albiet in the function of human depression, so the dog was not treated with drugs. I feel the aggression was just another faucet of untreated anxiety. He reached stress threshold & that was that. It was very low level aggression, just a growl & lots of displacement behaviour, but, given the dog worked amongst the general public every day I learned my lesson. Other indices are lethargy, weight loss, disinterest, loss of appetie? For those who internalise *emotion* like the sight hounds I think so. Cheers, Anita Goulding Sydney, Australia From: IN%"J.Eddison@plymouth.ac.uk" "J Eddison" 23-SEP-1998 01:57:50.44 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE Council Officers Dear All, At the recent ISAE Congress at Clermont-Ferrand in France, the following Officers were elected: Editor - Ray Stricklin (email: ws31@umail.umd.edu) Membership Secretary - Janice Swanson (email: jswanson@oz.oznet.ksu.edu) Treasurer - Jeremy Marchant (email: jnm@dmu.ac.uk) Assistant Secretary - Neville Prescott (email: neville.prescott@bbsrc.ac.uk) New Council Members Birte Nielsen (email: Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk) Chris Sherwin (email: Chris.Sherwin@bristol.ac.uk) Thanks to retiring Council members: Inma Estevez Mike Mendl Jeff Rushen Mark Rutter James Serpell Henrik Simonsen The ISAE newsletter will be published in October, if any members wish to include anything, please send me the copy by the end of September. Thanks, John Eddison Communications Officer, ISAE From: IN%"mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk" "Mike Appleby" 23-SEP-1998 03:09:58.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"pedrom@servidor.unam.mx" "Cecilia Pedernera" CC: Subj: RE: Enquiry on a PhD on dolphins Cecilia > I am planing to do my PhD in > Coping mechanisims in captive dolphins ( behaviour, stress,health, welfare) A Masters student here did a project in this area and published the following paper: GALHARDO, L., APPLEBY, M.C., WARAN, N.K. & DOS SANTOS, M.E. 1996. Spontaneous activities of captive performing dolphins (Tursiops truncatus). Animal Welfare 5: 373-389. That article also gives an address for her, although she is no longer working with dolphins. I could also send you a copy of her masters thesis. Mike Michael Appleby Dr M.C. Appleby Director of Postgraduate Studies Institute of Ecology and Resource Management University of Edinburgh Tel. +44 131 535 4098 Fax. +44 131 667 2601 Email mappleby@srv0.bio.ed.ac.uk or michael.appleby@ed.ac.uk From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 23-SEP-1998 04:13:30.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Fog of Depression I am not sure that 'depression' is a particularly useful word if we are looking for 'indices' or measurements of hedony. Boredom presents similar difficulties as a word. The scientific delineation of this might be approached via the phenomenon of 'sensory specific satiety'. Repeated access to rewards seeming to diminish enthusiasm for the acquisition. {Personally I consider many things, from ' Dad what shall I do?' through modern art, atonal music, peculiar sexual activity, and picky feline feeders have roots in S.S.S]. It can be measured on the graphs of running speed for reward in experiments on schedules of reinforcement. I suggest it is represented by the decline in speed after a certain number of trials. Extending the interval of reward on a partial reward schedule seems to test the phenomenon of 'optimism' or 'hope' After the effort of 'frustrative vigour' fails the phase of resignation arrives. If the deferred reward is clearly signalled the waiting or 'deferred gratification' is calmly conducted. Gradual extension of the reward interval may lead to very low levels of expectation indeed. [In human relationships the next stage may be divorce] The extinction of hope by absolute non-reward can lead to the abolition of motivation, curiosity, experiment or learning. This is what I understand by 'learned helplessness'. The state is arrived by deprivation as easily as by punishment. It is observed that one or two chance escapes from the arena of punishment seem to be unregistered by the victim. The capacity for reward or learning may have to be reconstructed, which seems to agree with what we expect of the long term prisoner or psychiatric detainee. The heavy handed or 'Stalinist' imposition of dominance reduction ploys can reduce certain dogs to 'helplessness'. John Fisher had a benchmark case which he delighted in recounting. The lady's complaint was that her dog did nothing. John said it looked 'depressed'. We might say it was 'helpless' by experience. She had read the protocol in a book and reduced the dog to zero motivation. John captured a number of dogs on video trying to get at rewards behind various maze obstructions. He also showed the difficulties encountered when a dog trained for say guiding a blind person was dropped from its program and then set to be an assistance dog. great problems ensue when a dog trained not to pick things up has to learn to do just that! He repeatedly showed dogs in conflict and the huge euphoria which they could exhibit when they finally 'succeeded' in solving the puzzle or slowly learning to re-experience a forbidden reward. The measure of such hedonic constraints, extinctions and re-learnings might be achieved by weighing the effort of the reversal. It does seem that some highly trained dogs will have difficulty in 'free thinking'. In a recent experiment with a discrimination task to achieve reward, a mongrel (unfettered hooligan) solved the button choice in two minutes. A police dog became highly agitated and after eleven minutes quit the arena to bite his handler. All the anecdotes I have read in the last few days here seem to sort into fairly predictable types. Sadly in the process of managing her grief John's widow has apparently burned all his notes, videos and transcripts. Some might find that depressing. Robin Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors If a madman were to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards Dr. Samuel Johnson 1776 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 23-SEP-1998 07:40:23.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Depression or Boredom? Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 10:53:43 -0700 > To: "Deborah McWilliams" > From: Debi Davis > Subject: Re: Canine Depression or Boredom? Dear Debi: > Translating psychological terminology is extremely > difficult, because many of the words have such different contexts to those > who do not come from a scientific base. Welcome to the world of behaviourism/ethology/psychology. Yes, there are meanings to words that differ depending on the discipline and whether or not the word is used "on the street". > You asked, in reply: > > How would you determine what this behaviour means? For example, > >if conducting a study?<< > I'm confused by your question. I think I need clarification. I'm sorry! > If something is not known about a behaviour (the origin of the behaviour, the meaning of the behaviour, etc), then objective, controlled studies could possible determine facets of that behaviour. > > But it's soooo simple to reshape this with operant conditioning. In a > matter of minutes, actually. My observation re: use of any training method: the person using the method has to have control over themselves with the ability to use the methodology and personal discipline to follow through. I have worked with parents in training their children and with people training their animals and both types of situations often are a case of "who is manipulating who". The parent with trouble training their children are often not very successful at training their animal. A dog trainer I worked with used to say "The dog can come back. You stay at home". > When we look at the work of Karen Pryor and the Baileys, shaping marine > animals, zoo animals of all kinds, even fish and chickens and cockroaches, > it's evident that the animal training world has a long way to go in > undestanding animal behavior. I think we as a species have a long way to go to understand the cognitive abilities of the "lower" species. We get amazed at the capabilities of (chickens, lets say) when, in fact, if they were not capable of doing those things (cognitively) they could not survive. Our amazement often stems from our inflated view of ourselves. > > How interesting! Is there any place online I could read this article? How > fascinating! A robot who can pull, detect curbs, low hanging trees, open > manholes, traffic? Wowwwww! I think the magazine "Discover" had a small article about it a month or two ago. > > Thanks for sharing, Deborah. I feel woefully inadequate to even enter these > conversations, There is a culture in behaviourism/psychology/ethology that appears to encourage inadequacy. There are actually many good reasons for this - trying to establish common grounds for communicating and avoiding inaccuracies that question professionalism and may endanger the animals in our care (or who will receive the result of our work). for the most part. But you made yourself accessible and for > this I do thank you! I may be an uneducated nobody, but I have observed > many things during the past 30 years of animal training, that have helped > me tremendously in working with new animals. I had a conversation with a friend recently (Donna Reynolds - she is on this list) about "amateurs" who work with animals. Through two studies I am doing on nutritional pathology, I have found there are a number of things that nonprofessionals do who do so intuitively, apparently without reason, but their techniques seem to "work". People we would label as "naturals". (For the record, on the down side, there are equally as many nonprofessional who are doing questionable things and I am sure everyone on this list can come up with a myriad of examples). However, without an objective and controlled study of what these people are doing, we cannot determine what of whatever it is that they are doing that works. > Do you by any chance work with Dr.Pam Reid, author of "ExCelerated > Learning"? She's an assistant professor in clinical ethology at Guelph, > and one heck of a good dog trainer! I'd love to have Pam take a stab at the > depression question. I do not know her personally but I do know her as a professor here. I will ask if she will comment. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 23-SEP-1998 07:57:28.77 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Canine Depression or Boredom? > From: "De Meester" > To: "Deborah McWilliams" > Subject: Re: Canine Depression or Boredom? > Date sent: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 09:22:24 +0200 Dear Rudy: > a state of non-reactivity can be a symptom > but must allways be compared with the previous behaviour of the dog. > attentivity cannot be mixed or confounded with depression, > as mentioned by others on the net, Something seems wrong if attention is not related to a depressive state. I would agree that a lack of attention does not mean depression. > to be honest, most working dogs I see are not depressed, > if so, they were useless for the people who depend on them, > depression makes them unable to do anything usefull. Yes - there appears to be a fair amount of "failures" in the working dog biz, But, the reasons stated are not for depression. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 23-SEP-1998 08:05:57.56 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Fog of Depression > Date sent: Wed, 23 Sep 1998 11:04:43 +0100 > From: Robin Walker > Subject: Fog of Depression > To: "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" HI Robin! Good to hear from you - have you been on vacation? > Repeated access to rewards > seeming to diminish enthusiasm for the > acquisition. Reward is in the sight of the beholder. > > Extending the interval of reward on a > partial reward schedule seems to test > the phenomenon of 'optimism' or 'hope' Shades of learned helplessness? > the waiting or 'deferred gratification' is calmly > conducted. > Gradual extension of the reward interval may > lead to very low levels of expectation indeed. > > [In human relationships the next stage may be > divorce] Learned helplessness for those who cannot get a divorce? > > The extinction of hope by absolute non-reward > can lead to the abolition of motivation, curiosity, > experiment or learning. This is what I understand > by 'learned helplessness'. The state is arrived > by deprivation as easily as by punishment. Does not sound good if occurring in a guide dog. Is there a potential for measuring this? For example, it appears as if there are a lot of failures in the guide dog biz. HOw do they determine why? > It is observed that one or two chance escapes > from the arena of punishment seem to be > unregistered by the victim. The capacity > for reward or learning may have to be > reconstructed, which seems to agree with > what we expect of the long term prisoner > or psychiatric detainee. Is this what we see in the bored or depressed guide dog? > The measure of such hedonic > constraints, extinctions and > re-learnings might be achieved by > weighing the effort of the reversal. Good point. The degree of cognitive dissonance exhibited during the relearning process? > It does seem that some highly trained > dogs will have difficulty in 'free thinking'. > minutes. A police dog became highly > agitated and after eleven minutes quit > the arena to bite his handler. Interesting. Thanks! Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 23-SEP-1998 08:12:27.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: music and horses Dear Barbara: Check the studies on circus elephants. There has been some interesting behavioural observations re: their interactions with music used in their performances. Deb > Date sent: Tue, 22 Sep 1998 23:34:14 +0200 > From: Dr.B.Schoening@t-online.de > Subject: music and horses > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Hi everybody, > a musician asked me if there is any literature on the effect of music on= horses > or animals in general. He writes his disserattion on "music in the circu= s" and > came along this question when looking especially at horses in training a= nd > showing. Not that he does not know that speed and rhythmn in a show are = adjusted > according to the horses movements but he is interested in the topic in a= more > scientific way. > I would appreciate any information > thanks in advance > Barbara > > Dr. Barbara Sch=F6ning > Fachtier=E4rztin f=FCr Verhaltenskunde > Veterinary Behaviour Consultant Phone +4940 6087 5351 > Saselbergweg 32 Fax +4940 6087 5350 > 22395 Hamburg Germany > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"joan@meganet.net" 23-SEP-1998 12:43:36.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Horses and music > > Hi everybody, > > a musician asked me if there is any literature on the effect of music on horses > > or animals in general. He writes his disserattion on "music in the circus" and > > came along this question when looking especially at horses in training and > > showing. Not that he does not know that speed and rhythmn in a show are adjusted > > according to the horses movements but he is interested in the topic in a more > > scientific way. > > I would appreciate any information > > thanks in advance > > Barbara > > > Hi, I have worked a lot on horseback and doing ground work to music principally to teach riders and handlers to do rhythmic work. The horses do learn the particular music as part of the situational learning and will then "help" a less competent rider. It takes a lot of repitition. Turned out in the ring or in stalls, I see very little response from horses to music which in most barns can be anything from hard rock to classical, depending on who is working that day. They just tune is out as one of the "safe" sounds in their lives. You might try contacting some serious dressage riders who often work to music as well. Joan -- ______________________ Joan Weintraub mail to joan@meganet.net CompatiPup Canine Services Tiverton, RI / Newton, MA 401-625-5953 From: IN%"joan@meganet.net" 23-SEP-1998 16:07:01.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Depression in Dogs > Debi asks: > > Deb, what specifically are you seeing? What body language are the dogs > > displaying that make you feel they may be depressed? > > > I don't know if the body language that I am seeing means the dog > is depressed hence my question, what behavioural indices mean > depression in a canine. > Hi All, Have been following this thread and first, would like to thank Debi (one of my heroine trainers), Deb, Debbie and Robin (ok, so you had to be different!) for their wonderful and informative posts. I'd like to add a couple of things. First, after much searching through my vet small animal behavior books, I can find very little on depression except in Appendix F (terminology necessary and sufficient conditions for behavioral diagnoses) in Karen Overall's "Clinical Behavioral Medicine for Small Animal". As she says these "classifications represent diagnoses of problem behaviors and are not simply descriptions of a behavioral event...", and that, with more information some of the categories may "be found not to exist" and that categories sometimes overlap. For those of you who may not have the book, here is the text. "Depression (No Code Available) Necessary: Prolonged (>1 or 2 weeks) endogenous or reactive withdrawal from social stimuli, changes in appetite, and changes in sleep/wake cycles that are not incidental and not attributable solely to lethargy. Sufficient: As above, accompanied by decreased motor activity and actual physical removal from normal social and environmental stimuli in the absence of any underlying neurological or physiological conditional Concerns: The same criteria that allow human psychiatrists to define depression in people are not available to veterinarians. Many of the signs that would occur in depressed animals are nonspecific and may occur in other abnormal conditions, especially if the animal perceives that it is behaving abnormally." The other references occasionally comment on depressive symptoms (which vary widely and are not chronic) in sections on fear, anxiety, phobias, OCD, and separation anxiety. Initially, this thread began with a comment about someone having to leave a room because they felt so badly for all the depressed looking dogs at an APDT conference in Phoenix, then it went on to service dogs looking depressed. I know little about service dogs (thank goodness for Debi) but I do know a lot about pet and competitive dogs. Incidentally, APDT = Association of Pet Dog Trainers. I wasn't at that conference so have no comment on that but I sure have seen so many, many pets that fit into what Bill Campbell called the "learned helplessness" category. I have a Yorkie rescue living with me and my pack at the moment whose behavior best describes this. She is a 6 y.o. spayed female. She was initially owned by an elderly woman who, from puppy hood, did not socialize or train her, but rather, kept her on her lap, coddled and protected her. When the woman died, an adolescent niece took the dog and continued to reinforce the dependent behavior in a more dangerous way (to my way of thinking) by demanding lots of emotional interdependence on a variable schedule (when it was convenient) and by taking away all routines and schedules. She came into rescue when the girl went to college and into a "no dogs" apartment. Many "littles" who live on laps learn to bite out of fear. Thank goodness, this one did not. But, she was very, very depressed. She lived to follow this person's feet, would yelp and jump constantly to be held and when left just didn't move or eat, except minimally. When she came here, she followed me constantly, laid quietly beside me everywhere (I discouraged the lap routine), ate without enthusiasm, and went out to eliminate, period. This went on for several weeks. Gradually, she has begun to have more interest in treats, takes independent forays to sniff and dig, occasionally barks, has made gestures of interest toward some of the other dogs and has started to play with me with a ball or toy. She is actually quite feisty (for short periods, so far), marks territory, can defend a special toy or chewie and, in general, is a lot less depressed. I have seen this over and over doing social boarding and in (my) home training. A normal dog can emerge in a very short time. I think we put far more pressure on our pet dogs these days than ever before to meet our emotional needs and, often, in doing so, create the "depression" that is observed. As vets, behaviorists, trainers and dog lovers I think we need to help people know how to let their dog be a dog, at least now and then. We need to help develop trainers who use positive reinforcement and know how to run an effective, safe and educational puppy kindergarten in addition to their other classes. Trainers need a fundamental educational base to qualify as beginning trainers and further educational levels to study for as well as good, continuing education. I think, though it is young and going through growing pains, the APDT is trying to accomplish this as well as NADOI (National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors). Well, sorry I got off on this but is it really very important to me and all those depressed looking dogs. Regards, Joan -- ______________________ Joan Weintraub mail to joan@meganet.net CompatiPup Canine Services Tiverton, RI / Newton, MA 401-625-5953 From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 23-SEP-1998 22:57:16.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression In a message dated 98-09-22 14:06:45 EDT, you write: << It was suggested (by BIll, below) that the behaviour may stem from learned helplessness which develops from a loss of control in one's environment and an inability to escape aversive stimuli. I suggested that if this was true, then would it not be a welfare issue? If the dogs are depressed, would it be a welfare issue? >> Deb, not trying to be confrontational or to even argue the point. Trying to wrap my mind around this and decide (a) is it valid that such dogs are truly depressed? and (b) if so, IS it a welfare issue? In other words, undecided here. To clarify my thinking, I would like to ask this: Supposing what has been observed is in fact learned helplessness and depression; please compare to the "yard dog" who is purchased as a pup, chained up in the back yard, provided a dog house and a bowl of water and food once a day. There the dog remains for life. Here in the good ol' U.S. of A there are many more yard dogs than guide dogs, and my personal opinion is that "yard dogs" should be a major welfare issue. Would like to hear comparison: yard dog vs. depressed guide dog from the ethological viewpoint. Would help me with some points of reference to wrap my mind around it and clarify my thinking re: the guidedogs. Again, from the angle of supposition that learned helplessness/depression is a fact in the guide dog. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 23-SEP-1998 23:50:11.93 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression In a message dated 98-09-22 14:55:48 EDT, Bill writes: << I've had lots of chats about the _phenomena_ below, with people from all sorts of disciplines. One person defined it [the apparently non-responsive demeanor] as a POW syndrome. >> I find this very interesting also. Of course, I am not well versed in POW syndrome, however, I have rescued several dogs that I knew for a fact had suffered the following for several months to two years duration: Stimulus deprivation (confined in dark basements, garages or outbuildings) Malnutrition No socialization during crucial puppy phases Physical abuse Verbal/mental abuse (ie: coaxing the dog in and then beating it etc.) I always thought that they suffered the same as most POWs I have read about. These dogs were not unresponsive. They would go on stimulus overload and exhibit extreme fear responses and other aberrant behavior, but they did not exhibit unresponsiveness as described in the guide dog descriptions here. Comments on this comparison would be very helpful for me. I may learn something helpful for better rehabilitation of such dogs. <> Yes, wish I could say "Bill, you're all wet, it doesn't ever happen that way." Unfortunately, I know better. That and much worse happens every day. Unwitting and inexperienced owners buy these books and practice what they read. However, there are an equal number of excellent trainers. Although I am very pleased to see recent progress in methodology, I remain unconvinced (as do others) that certain methodologies in their pure form are sufficient as stand alones. For instance, I do not believe that operant conditioning alone is sufficient for adequate training. Operant conditioning does not address the dogs social/emotional needs. Therefore, I could, theoretically, make a case from my viewpoint that operant conditioning as a sole methodology is a welfare issue. So you see the dilemma. Who is to say what methodologies are acceptable? Is correction/punishment/compulsion ALWAYS bad? Some examples, such as the one you give, are comparitively black and white, but when it gets down to the hair splitting, there are some serious gray areas. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"Nabil.Brandl@agrsci.dk" "Nabil Brandl" 24-SEP-1998 00:00:36.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'a-ethology'" CC: Subj: Horses and Music This message is in MIME format. Since your mail reader does not understand this format, some or all of this message may not be legible. --Boundary_(ID_v7qdkUoKGdecAlxB9iebUg) Content-type: text/plain << horses and musuc.htm>> Here are some web-pages, concerning horses and music ************************************************************* Nabil Brandl Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Reseach Center Foulum P.O.Box 50, 8830 Denamrk Tjele E-mail: Nabil.Brandl@agrsci.dk Voice: 89991371 Fax: 89991500 HomePage: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil ******************************************************************* --Boundary_(ID_v7qdkUoKGdecAlxB9iebUg) Content-type: application/octet-stream; name=" horses and musuc.htm" Content-disposition: attachment; filename=" horses and musuc.htm" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Content-Location: ATT-0-CADCEAF93F53D211994800805F8BB749-h orsesan.htm =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= Infoseek: horses and musuc=0A= =0A= =0A= =0A= =0A=
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=0A= =0A= =0A= --Boundary_(ID_v7qdkUoKGdecAlxB9iebUg)-- From: IN%"Nabil.Brandl@agrsci.dk" "Nabil Brandl" 24-SEP-1998 00:57:53.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'a-ethology'" CC: Subj: http://www.infoseek.com/Titles?qt=music+and+horses&col=WW Web pages concerning horses and music ************************************************************* Nabil Brandl Danish Institute of Agricultural Sciences Dept. of Animal Health and Welfare Reseach Center Foulum P.O.Box 50, 8830 Denamrk Tjele E-mail: Nabil.Brandl@agrsci.dk Voice: 89991371 Fax: 89991500 HomePage: http://www.sh.dk/~nabil ******************************************************************* From: IN%"filip.mulkens@agr.kuleuven.ac.be" 24-SEP-1998 01:35:17.37 To: IN%"joan@meganet.net" CC: IN%"Applied-Ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Depression in Dogs Dear all Joan referred to a text about depression in Dogs/Small Animals in a book by K. Overall : I can find very little | on depression | except in Appendix F (terminology necessary and sufficient | conditions | for behavioral diagnoses) in Karen Overall's "Clinical | Behavioral | Medicine for Small Animal". As she says these | "classifications | represent diagnoses of problem behaviors and are not | simply descriptions | of a behavioral event...", and that, with more information | some of the | categories may "be found not to exist" and that | categories sometimes | overlap. For those of you who may not have the book, here | is the text. | | "Depression (No Code Available) | Necessary: Prolonged (>1 or 2 weeks) endogenous or | reactive | withdrawal from social stimuli, changes in appetite, and | changes in | sleep/wake cycles that are not incidental and not | attributable solely to | lethargy. | Sufficient: As above, accompanied by decreased motor | activity and | actual physical removal from normal social and | environmental stimuli in | the absence of any underlying neurological or | physiological conditional | Concerns: The same criteria that allow human | psychiatrists to define | depression in people are not available to veterinarians. | Many of the | signs that would occur in depressed animals are | nonspecific and may | occur in other abnormal conditions, especially if the | animal perceives | that it is behaving abnormally." Now I was wondering if an animal can perceive that it is behaving abnormally. What is your opinion about this? And could you give examples/proofs of this? Thank you very much in advance Filip F. Mulkens, DVM Laboratory for Agricultural Buildings Research Faculty for Agricultural and Applied Biological Sciences K.U.Leuven Kardinaal Mercierlaan 92 B-3001 HEVERLEE BELGIUM Tel: +32-16-32 17 33 or +32-16-32 17 28 Fax: +32-16-32 19 77 E-mail: filip.mulkens@agr.kuleuven.ac.be From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 24-SEP-1998 02:52:13.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Occam where art thou? GROUP SHAVE girls! Dogs waiting for something to happen, schoolchildren at dull desks, factory workers on the line, lions under a tree, women stitching amidst noise that precludes chatter, may all LOOK depressed ! The criterion of 'depression of motivation' or 'anhedonia' is the response to signals of cessation of 'deferred gratification' , 'time -out', or end of shift. The 'latency to escape' out of the factory gate, school entrance, to the peg where the lead hangs, to the pub, to the connubial bath-tub ( see D.H.Lawrence) could be the measure that ye seek! The 'unfuzziness' of being resigned to wait for 'release' or 'gratification' is due to the controlling SEMIOLOGY of the bell, whistle, evening breeze, grunt of prey, rattle of harness.... Motivation may be depressed by artificial means (social, cultural,) which isTRAINING or it might arise by failure of the physiology of hedony, in which case it is CLINICAL. The apportionment of time budgets for GRATIFICATION and DEFERRED GRATIFICATION for an individual of any species in any environment is a MORAL/ SOCIOLOGICAL/ PHILOSOPHICAL matter. WELFARE is an issue when levels of gratification or the capacity for it are 'considered' to be too LOW. And that is POLITICS. Robin Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors If a madman were to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards Dr. Samuel Johnson 1776 From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 24-SEP-1998 03:20:21.19 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Address of DORIT ALBERTSEN How can I reach DORIT ALBERTSEN ? ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 24-SEP-1998 06:49:57.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: horses and music This may be totally off-topic but Joan's posting brought it to mind: About 15 years ago, I use to do jazzercise two times a week, 1 hour each time for about two years. For those unfamiliar with jazzercise, it is like aerobics but it is choreographed to music. The music varies, usually, from slow to fast to slow to allow for warm-up, an intense aerobic work-out then a cool down. To this day, I cannot hear any of those songs used in the jazzercise program without having to prevent myself from breaking into leg-lifts or running on the spot! Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 24-SEP-1998 06:57:22.78 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Depression in Dogs Hi Joan!! Thank you for forwarding info! > except in Appendix F (terminology necessary and sufficient conditions > for behavioral diagnoses) in Karen Overall's "Clinical Behavioral > Medicine for Small Animal". As she says these "classifications > represent diagnoses of problem behaviors and are not simply descriptions > of a behavioral event...", We could probably have an interesting discussion on the issue of depression as a problem behaviour. Who is it a problem for? It may be a problem for the dog if it lowers its quality of life, but it may also exist to cope with the quality of life it does experience. It may be a problem for the observer who feels uncomfortable because the behaviour suggests certain things (e.g., unhappiness). It may be a problem for the professional trainer on a large spectrum of levels and issues. It may become a problem for the person who uses the guide dog. > "Depression (No Code Available) > Necessary: Prolonged (>1 or 2 weeks) endogenous or reactive > withdrawal from social stimuli Problem: from some of the postings here, guide dogs are trained to be nonreactive. Are the dogs indirectly being trained to be depressives? > Sufficient: As above, accompanied by decreased motor activity and > actual physical removal from normal social and environmental stimuli in > the absence of any underlying neurological or physiological conditional Seems to fit a guide dogs niche in life. > The other references occasionally comment on depressive symptoms (which > vary widely and are not chronic) in sections on fear, anxiety, phobias, > OCD, and separation anxiety. > > Initially, this thread began with a comment about someone having to > leave a room because they felt so badly for all the depressed looking > dogs at an APDT conference in Phoenix, then it went on to service dogs > looking depressed. I know little about service dogs (thank goodness for > Debi) but I do know a lot about pet and competitive dogs. Incidentally, > APDT = Association of Pet Dog Trainers. I wasn't at that conference so > have no comment on that but I sure have seen so many, many pets that fit > into what Bill Campbell called the "learned helplessness" category. > > I have a Yorkie rescue living with me and my pack at the moment whose > behavior best describes this. She is a 6 y.o. spayed female. She was > initially owned by an elderly woman who, from puppy hood, did not > socialize or train her, but rather, kept her on her lap, coddled and > protected her. When the woman died, an adolescent niece took the dog and > continued to reinforce the dependent behavior in a more dangerous way > (to my way of thinking) by demanding lots of emotional interdependence > on a variable schedule (when it was convenient) and by taking away all > routines and schedules. She came into rescue when the girl went to > college and into a "no dogs" apartment. Many "littles" who live on laps > learn to bite out of fear. Thank goodness, this one did not. But, she > was very, very depressed. She lived to follow this person's feet, would > yelp and jump constantly to be held and when left just didn't move or > eat, except minimally. When she came here, she followed me constantly, > laid quietly beside me everywhere (I discouraged the lap routine), ate > without enthusiasm, and went out to eliminate, period. This went on for > several weeks. Gradually, she has begun to have more interest in treats, > takes independent forays to sniff and dig, occasionally barks, has made > gestures of interest toward some of the other dogs and has started to > play with me with a ball or toy. She is actually quite feisty (for short > periods, so far), marks territory, can defend a special toy or chewie > and, in general, is a lot less depressed. I have seen this over and over > doing social boarding and in (my) home training. A normal dog can emerge > in a very short time. > > I think we put far more pressure on our pet dogs these days than ever > before to meet our emotional needs and, often, in doing so, create the > "depression" that is observed. As vets, behaviorists, trainers and dog > lovers I think we need to help people know how to let their dog be a > dog, at least now and then. We need to help develop trainers who use > positive reinforcement and know how to run an effective, safe and > educational puppy kindergarten in addition to their other classes. > Trainers need a fundamental educational base to qualify as beginning > trainers and further educational levels to study for as well as good, > continuing education. I think, though it is young and going through > growing pains, the APDT is trying to accomplish this as well as NADOI > (National Association of Dog Obedience Instructors). Well, sorry I got > off on this but is it really very important to me and all those > depressed looking dogs. Regards, Joan > > -- > ______________________ > Joan Weintraub > mail to joan@meganet.net > CompatiPup Canine Services > Tiverton, RI / Newton, MA > 401-625-5953 > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 24-SEP-1998 07:03:51.81 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Depression in Dogs Hi Joan! Thanks for providing this info! > "Depression (No Code Available) > Necessary: Prolonged (>1 or 2 weeks) endogenous or reactive > withdrawal from social stimuli From the various postings re: training of guide dogs, this is what they are trained to do. Are they indirectly being trained to be depressives? > Sufficient: As above, accompanied by decreased motor activity and > actual physical removal from normal social and environmental stimuli in > the absence of any underlying neurological or physiological conditional Sounds like the postings re:L guide dog training. > APDT = Association of Pet Dog Trainers. I wasn't at that conference so > have no comment on that but I sure have seen so many, many pets that fit > into what Bill Campbell called the "learned helplessness" category. So, is this a welfare problem? > > I think we put far more pressure on our pet dogs these days than ever > before to meet our emotional needs and, often, in doing so, create the > "depression" that is observed. Is a guide dog a pet? > Well, sorry I got > off on this but is it really very important to me and all those > depressed looking dogs. Regards, Joan Nothing to apologize for!! Very interesting. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 24-SEP-1998 07:15:47.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression Hi Kathy! > Supposing what has been observed is in fact learned helplessness and > depression; please compare to the "yard dog" who is purchased as a pup, > chained up in the back yard, provided a dog house and a bowl of water and food > once a day. There the dog remains for life. Here in the good ol' U.S. of A > there are many more yard dogs than guide dogs, and my personal opinion is that > "yard dogs" should be a major welfare issue. May I answer this in a circular manner? IF we consider that the welfare of an undetermined number of guide dogs is compromised because training techniques appear to produce depressive animals and/or animals with "learned helplessness", are we forced to consider that maybe these dogs should not be used in this manner? If we begin to consider that dogs cannot be used in this manner, will we be forced to take a position? Will we be forced to take action? Will we be forced to rethink our professions? Facing these questions would entail some uneasy psychological processes. Who is more important - the human who needs the guide dog or the guide dog? Even IF a guide dog's welfare is compromised by our use of him/her in this manner, we cannot make the issue seem less by bringing force an even "worse" issue to make the situation more comfortable. For example, should the lady who was uncomfortable viewing the guide dog cope with her psychological/emotional processes by saying, "After all, this guide dog is better off because it could have ended up as an ignored animal tied up in someone's backyard?" (It might be tempting if it would ease the angst). My opinion: The postings seem to have a consensus that TRAINING method, not use of the dog, may be the problem. > Would like to hear comparison: yard dog vs. depressed guide dog from the > ethological viewpoint. I think, to reduce the issue only to ethology, is to miss the forest for the trees. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"scripto@azstarnet.com" "Debi Davis" 24-SEP-1998 08:37:48.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression/Circular Thinking What a great post, Deborah. You bring up many excellent questions which can't be ignored. And which aren't being ignored in the industry. The dog training industry in general is going through a major change, as newer methodologies of communication are being embraced. This has been extremely difficult for many trainers who have spent lifetimes working with compulsion, for a host of reasons too lengthy to address in this post. We do know that coersion has fallout. Murry Sidman has written an informative book about this very thing, entitled "Coersion and its Fallout." A "must read" for those interested in ways to communicate information without using punishment. What has helped spread the word that there ARE other ways of communicating without the use of compulsion, is that we *do* have emperical data rather than just anectdotal information. We can ignore the anectdotal info, but it's pretty hard to ignore clinical data that supports the anectdotal info so well. >> My opinion: The postings seem to have a consensus that TRAINING >method, not use of the dog, may be the problem.<< BINGO! If you could see our service dogs work--any of the dogs from our training center, you would see happy animals delighted to work, who are extremely bonded to their handlers. They are full family members as well, not crated away when they are not working. They are allowed to interact with other family members, run and play like pets. Someone asked if service dogs are "pets." In the formal sense, no, they are not considered pets. That's why they have access to all public places. They have intensive training far beyond a pet, and service and guide dog users are quick to remind people that these dogs are *NOT* pets. However, I have to admit that my dogs and the dogs who train through the Tucson facilities are indeed pets as well as working dogs. They sleep with us, we snuggle with them, we play with them. It does not hinder their working ability or make them less reliable. If anything, it has worked to solidfy the human-animal bond. Interestingly enough, many of these dogs are dual certified as therapy dogs. I would say it has done just the opposite. The dog not only has a purpose in life, it has emotional, mental and physical stimulation on a continuing basis. Someone else mentioned (sorry, I accidently deleted several posts, so can't credit the poster!) that using pure operant conditioning for training methodology fails because the dogs' emotional state was not considered. Much has been written about this, and much controversy exists here. Those who work in the world of pure science may feel emotions of animals has little value. But our animals do not, for the most part, live in clinical environments. They are not housed in cages, taken out for shaping sessions, and put back in, devoid of stimuli. I think this is a very important issue for that very reason. It is almost impossible in a home setting to ignore the emotions of our animals, or to train without learning more about how dogs think and react, and what emotions they display. To do so means we are missing important data which make training easier. Turid Ruugas has recently published a fine little book called "On Calming Signals", which identifies and discusses body language dogs display.Suzanne Clothier has also published a booklet called "Shifting Shapes and Emotions", which adresses this same issue, but not to the same depth as Ruugas's work. Still, both these fine trainers realize emotions DO play an important part in how well an animals learns. These books gave me much insight in working with the rescue dogs, as well as my own. I began to watch for body language and posturing, and this was essential information for me to be able to successfully desensitize animals displaying fear-agression behaviors. Watching dogs' body language gives us an important tool for reshaping problem behaviors. We can set the dog up for success instead of for failure, thus reducing the need for "correcting" wrong choices. For instance, if we watch our dogs' body language, we can see how many feet away a dog begins to show signs of stress, and begins to produce "calming signals" to other dogs coming into their territory. The anxious dog might hold its tail at a certain angle, hackles might rise, eyes might become a bit glassy and lip licking might begin, or body rigidness could happen. So we combine operant shaping with our observation of body language, and we can begin our desensitization program. We note the distance at which the calming signals begin, and we reiforce non-reactive behaviors just BEFORE the dog begins to display anxiety. We keep their attention, we re-direct. We work incrementally, never forcing the dog to confront a fear head on, but an inch at a time. I use this everyday to desensitize dogs who are inappropriately reactive to other animals, skateboarders, cyclists and joggers. If I did not have these signals the dog gives off to work with, my timing would stink and I'd most likely not have much success. Again, we don't live in a clinical environment. Deb asks: > >> Would like to hear comparison: yard dog vs. depressed guide dog from the >> ethological viewpoint. << I can't offer much here, but I would like to mention a few observations. I have taken in many "yard dogs" for rehabilitation. The behaviors I most often note are indiscriminate barking, obsessive barking, fence guarding, circular movements from being chained out, a marked tendency to avoid human-canine eye contact, and hyper-vigilance with all distractions, from falling leaves to children's giggles 3 yards over. When there is nothing else offered to react to, the dog always finds something. Good questions, Deb! Debi Davis Tucson, AZ From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 24-SEP-1998 11:02:43.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression/Circular Thinking Hi Debi!!! > Date sent: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 07:41:40 -0700 > From: Debi Davis > Subject: Re: canine depression/Circular Thinking > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > Deb asks Would like to hear comparison: yard dog vs. depressed guide dog from the > >> ethological viewpoint. << Actually, this was not me. Another Deb? (We have so many on this listserv! Thanks for such a positive outlook representing "new wave" training. Do you know what your success (or failure) rate is for guide dogs? This would be of interest to others who may want to compare their rates if they use different training methods. Do we have enough volunteers reading who could post success rates with training methodologies? It doesn't have to be with your personal clinic/business/school. Published material will do. For example, I have "heard" that some guide dog schools have failure rates of over 50%. Is this exaggerated? Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 24-SEP-1998 15:39:02.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression In a message dated 98-09-24 09:27:20 EDT, Deb writes: << May I answer this in a circular manner? >> MMmmmmmm. Well, first, there have been certain assumptions here that I have a problem with. 1.) The behavior observed is symptomatic of "depression". My demo dog exhibits the exact same behavior when he has to sit through one of those nights when we have three group classes back to back, and he has to be a good boy and stay on his mat most of the time. He is bored stiff, but I assure you, he is NOT depressed, nor has he suffered any compulsion based training. I also have had dogs behave this way on long weekends to out of state shows. They are pooped from the travel and bored with it all and wanting to go home. It is an extreme "ho hum" attitude. Therefore, I remain unconvinced that the behavior described indicates depression, although I am not stating that this may not be true in some instances. 2.) It has been stated that the majority of service dog training is heavily compulsion oriented, that this is an undesirable methodology, therefore that the "depressed" behavior observed is the result of an undesirable methodology, therefore this should be an animal welfare issue. I have a problem with the logic here. First, I am not convinced that the training of service dogs is, in general, heavy compulsion training. I am not well versed in service dog training, but I can say that what I do know of it, the heavy compulsion assumption is incorrect. I am curious enough to follow through, and so have sent inquiries. If I must stand corrected, I will be sure to let you know. Next, I submit that "heavy compulsion" is a rather subjective summation now days. There are those who view correction of any nature as screaming heavy compulsion and inhumane. I happen to disagree with that. Therefore, I would have to know a lot more about what methodology is truely employed before I could make any assumption that it is "undesirable" or detrimental to the dog. Once the facts of methodology are established, the undesirability factor remains subjective. The assumptions here are (a) the methodology is heavy compulsion (b) that methodology causes depression (c) therefore the methodology is an animal welfare issue. I am seeing assumption without enough fact. To me, that represents false conclusion. The only indice for depression that has been offered is loss of appetite, and no one here has suggested the allegedly depressed dogs were in poor weight? 3). You ask if the lesser evil should be ignored because there is a greater evil. First, no one has factually established there IS a lesser evil. Second, no evil should be ignored, but realistically, the more widely spread and abundant evil is the one we should be addressing our efforts towards. I feel your circular logic is flawed. 4). The crux of this argument is the methodology of training and the work the dog is required to do. I asked for a comparison of a dog deprived of any interaction to that of the service dog and you claim any such comparison is irrelevant. The service dog is well cared for, has a job, and benefits from a lot of interaction. The dog is not at work 24 hours a day, and the majority of people who have a service dog value that dog very highly and provide plenty of non-working interaction. The dog is life-partner, best friend, and valued protector. The yard dog is the cost of a bag of Old Roy every two or three weeks and a barking nuisance. His only interaction is when he is told to shut up. He is definitely responding to environmental stims. He barks frenziedly at a leaf that falls off the tree in the next block. Most excitement he gets. He spends endless hours of boredom laying in his damp doghouse. There is no methodology. He has no job to perform, no purpose in life. His high point is his water and food bowl being filled once a day if somebody remembers. Whaddya think? Could HE be depressed? Why is he not a welfare issue due to the lack of ANY methodology? I guess he is not an issue because he has NO learned helplessness? Sorry, but my feeling is that NO methodology (no interaction, no training, no job to perform, no purpose in life) is a far greater concern and much more widespread. I am not saying that there may be some validity in what is said here concerning service dog depression and the part training methodology may play in that depression. I am saying there are a lot of opinions here and very few facts, and so waving the animal welfare flag is premature. Is the cart horse depressed because he must pull the cart? His head is down, he is not responding to environmental stims in the manner a free roaming horse would. What about the saddle horse, who is not permitted to stop and graze while working (just as the service dog can't sniff and mark)? I have seen many a bored trail horse plodding along the same old trail with head and ears at half mast and glazed eyes. Both get frisky when they get turned out to pasture at the end of a day and both are eager to start the job the next morning. All the service dogs I have observed are the same. Yes, there is bad training out there. I have no doubt some bad training exists in service dog training. My contention is that NO training is the CRUELIST training. Was Joan's point about the much loved, cared for, coddled Yorkie missed? <> Yes, you have made my point for me precisely, yet missed my point. Kathy Hughes The Uneddykated Dog Trainer Kathy Hughes From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 24-SEP-1998 18:05:57.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression/Circular Thinking In a message dated 98-09-24 10:51:41 EDT, Debi writes: << I think this is a very important issue for that very reason. It is almost impossible in a home setting to ignore the emotions of our animals, or to train without learning more about how dogs think and react, and what emotions they display. To do so means we are missing important data which make training easier. Turid Ruugas has recently published a fine little book called "On Calming Signals", which identifies and discusses body language dogs display.Suzanne Clothier has also published a booklet called "Shifting Shapes and Emotions", which adresses this same issue, but not to the same depth as Ruugas's work. Still, both these fine trainers realize emotions DO play an important part in how well an animals learns. >> OK, so now I am going to risk being drawn and quartered here, so everyone sharpen their fillet knives! I am not trying to be confrontational, nor am I saying that "there is nothing new in dog training". Some of the more recent work has been tremendously valuable. But I would like to attempt to introduce some levity in this discussion. Operant conditioning was being utilized in animal training, in various ways to various degrees, long before Skinner, just as classical conditioning was long before Pavlov. Canine body language? If you want to take a look at someone who really understood and could read canine body language, take a look at (do I dare mention the infamous name?) Koehler. There was a fellow with a revolutionary understanding of canine language and emotions. I grant you he was heavy compulsion, and that is not to my taste. However, were his dogs depressed? Anyone who ever saw him with his dogs can tell you they were vivacious, eagerly awaiting the next command or opportunity to work, and they idolized him. They were some happy mutts. Grant you, one of the reasons for this was that Koehler was able to select exactly the right personality and temperament that would react in this manner to his methodology, and those were the only dogs he kept for himself. Would all dogs respond equally as well? Of course not. But some dogs also will not respond all that great to training that consists ONLY of operant conditioning either. It is my humble opinion that operant conditioning alone fails to address the dog's emotional needs concerning social interactions. These concepts are not so much new as they are now analyzed, defined, and better understood. Therefore they are being improved. Do I believe in minimizing punishment? Yes. Do I believe that correction of some kind is at times needed? Yes. I have no argument with the "new". But I don't want to see the baby thrown out with the bathwater either. "New" is not always entirely "better" on its own. Let us be cautious in our evaluations of methodology. Coersion has fallout, yes. But I think of the child who is never taught that poor decision making has negative consequences. Perhaps a little coercion is not necessarily evil? Kathy Hughes From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 24-SEP-1998 18:17:55.16 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression/Circular Thinking In a message dated 98-09-24 13:16:23 EDT, Deb writes: << For example, I have "heard" that some guide dog schools have failure rates of over 50%. Is this exaggerated? >> AND....is this indicative of a problem with methodolgy used or selection criteria or some other area of the program? Kathy Hughes From: IN%"scripto@azstarnet.com" "Debi Davis" 24-SEP-1998 18:32:16.42 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression Kathy Hughs writes: 2.) It has been stated that the majority of service dog training is heavily >compulsion oriented, that this is an undesirable methodology, therefore that >the "depressed" behavior observed is the result of an undesirable methodology, >therefore this should be an animal welfare issue. << Actually, the thread began with guide dog training, which is heavily compulsion oriented. Service dog organizations are beginning to switch to non-punishment based training programs. >Next, I submit that "heavy compulsion" is a rather subjective summation now >days. There are those who view correction of any nature as screaming heavy >compulsion and inhumane. I happen to disagree with that. Therefore, I would >have to know a lot more about what methodology is truely employed before I >could make any assumption that it is "undesirable" or detrimental to the >dog.<< Specifically, "heavy compulsion" means using physical means to achieve a behavior when other methods are equally as quick and reliable, and cause no stress to the animal. These may include toe hitches and ear pinches to train new behaviors, rather than using simple shaping techniques. The majority, but not all--of the service dog training facilities in the USA still use these techniques to train retrievals, for example. Many now question whether this type of compulsion has any place in training new behaviors, when other techniques have evolved to get the behavior without stress to the dog. There may still be areas where positive punishment is necessary. I know of no sure way to poison proof a dog without using aversives, nor to snake proof without them. But I sense that the world of service dog training is following in the steps of wild animal training, using more shaping techniques then force. It's just going to take time for people to learn new ways of communication which are not punishment based. >>Sorry, but my feeling is that NO methodology (no interaction, no training, no >job to perform, no purpose in life) is a far greater concern and much more >widespread. << A very good point. I am working with a rescue dog who was left in a back yard eating Old Roy for the first 4 years of his life. It takes a lot of rehabilitation to offset the effects of being abandoned in this manner for so long. I agree that training and human/canine interaction regardless of methodology is far superior to leaving a dog alone in a back yard endlessly. >Is the cart horse depressed because he must pull the cart? His head is down, >he is not responding to environmental stims in the manner a free roaming horse >would. What about the saddle horse, who is not permitted to stop and graze >while working (just as the service dog can't sniff and mark)? I have seen >many a bored trail horse plodding along the same old trail with head and ears >at half mast and glazed eyes. Both get frisky when they get turned out to >pasture at the end of a day and both are eager to start the job the next >morning. All the service dogs I have observed are the same.<< I have not observed the same thing in all service dogs. I have observed service dogs who are not allowed to interact with anyone other than the owner, and who are crated when not working, and not allowed to be part of a family. I have observed service dogs who get woefully little actual exercise or mental stimulation, and this worries me as well, especially when those dogs are corrected when they feel frisky and want to kick up their heels. I have observed service animals being punished inappropriately in public, for minor infractions, and upsetting children watching this happen. In one scenario, a dog on a sit-stay by the handler's side in a checkout line turned his head to lick the hand of a toddler who reached to pet it. The handler quickly screamed at the dog, and gave it a chin pop. The dog's tongue was caught between his teeth and the teeth cut through the tongue. The dog squealed and bled for a few moments while the child stood there stunned. What exactly did the dog learn from this? Could the dog generalize that he was being corrected for licking the child, or for interacting with the child, or for sitting improperly or for wagging his tail or....? I agree that compulsion based training can be very humane. I have many, many service dog trainer friends who are compulsion trainers, and who do a splendid job of training their animals. Because they have good timing, fine dog handling skills, the dogs suffer a minimum of pain. Still, I'd love to see more trainers explore the possibilities of training with markers. It's exasperating that training which is scientific based, reproducible, and very successful is touted as "voodoo" by those who feel only compulsion can produce a "solid" working dog. This simply is not true. >Yes, there is bad training out there. I have no doubt some bad training >exists in service dog training. My contention is that NO training is the >CRUELIST training. << Again, an excellent point Kathy. From: IN%"scripto@azstarnet.com" "Debi Davis" 24-SEP-1998 18:48:09.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression/Circular Thinking Kathy braces for fallout, and writes: >OK, so now I am going to risk being drawn and quartered here, so everyone >sharpen their fillet knives! << I'm a clicker trainer! We don't fillet, draw or quarter! >Operant conditioning was being utilized in animal training, in various ways to >various degrees, long before Skinner, just as classical conditioning was long >before Pavlov.<< Absolutely right! But the difference is we now have ways to apply this to dog training using a marker, which gives vital information to a dog in a pain-free way. A leash pop can give the same information, but it focuses on correcting a mistake. A marker used with positive reinforcement can reinforce desired behaviors before a correction is needed. But operant conditioning is nothing new, you're right! >Canine body language? If you want to take a look at someone who really >understood and could read canine body language, take a look at (do I dare >mention the infamous name?) Koehler. There was a fellow with a revolutionary >understanding of canine language and emotions.<< Yes, I learned a great deal from Koehler, but I think some of his thinking was flawed, and not based on the laws of learning as we now interpret them scientifically. > >I grant you he was heavy compulsion, and that is not to my taste. However, >were his dogs depressed? Anyone who ever saw him with his dogs can tell you >they were vivacious, eagerly awaiting the next command or opportunity to work, >and they idolized him. They were some happy mutts.<< Yes, dogs are amazing creatures, who are willing to put up with most anything if the get what they want: attention from humans, affection, food. I was a compulsion trainer for 25 years, and my dogs were also happy dogs. But they were not happy when I was training them. This is the biggest difference I see now: I am watching happy dogs DURING the training process. >>But some dogs also will not >respond all that great to training that consists ONLY of operant conditioning >either. It is my humble opinion that operant conditioning alone fails to >address the dog's emotional needs concerning social interactions. << Suzanne Clothier, Jean Donaldson and a host of others agree with you here. As do most people who have embraced clicker training. We must be able to observe and react to the dog's emotional needs as well. They are not robots, after all. Another very good point, Kathy. I agree totally. >These concepts are not so much new as they are now analyzed, defined, and >better understood. Therefore they are being improved.<< Exactly!!! And being applied in new and exciting ways! >Coersion has fallout, yes. But I think of the child who is never taught that >poor decision making has negative consequences. Perhaps a little coercion is >not necessarily evil?<< I agree. When my dog gets in the kitty litter box I use a dose of positive punishment to end the behavior. You sound like a good trainer, and a fine service dog user, Kathy! Debi Davis Tucson, AZ From: IN%"Kattykorn2@aol.com" 24-SEP-1998 19:57:13.18 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression In a message dated 98-09-24 21:01:55 EDT, you write: << Actually, the thread began with guide dog training, which is heavily compulsion oriented. Service dog organizations are beginning to switch to non-punishment based training programs. >> Debi, In the end, then, it appears we are actually in agreement? As I first stated, I am not that familiar with service/guide dogs or the training methods employed. My exposure has been fairly limited, and not what you describe. Funny you should mention toe hitches and ear pinches because I have never approved of either. I was aware that some service dog training involved isolation and limited access to resources, with the dog being crated unless working. I find this abhorrent and have always believed it counterproductive. As you described these situations, they would, in fact, be an animal welfare issue. We also agree on working towards eliminating negative stress as much as possible in the training process. Although I can think of some situations where a certain degree of negative stress would not be negative (true also with humans). Nevertheless, we are in agreement except perhaps in some few exceptions not explored here. Believe me, that after this discussion, I will be observing service/guide dogs much more closely in the future, and making an effort to talk to the owners about what they were taught to do in handling their dogs. Meanwhile, I confess, I will be more concentrated on the yard dog owner......sigh. Kathy Hughes From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 24-SEP-1998 22:22:17.66 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Aggression in desexed male dogs Reply to message from desmith@picknowl.com.au of Mon, 21 Sep > >>> >>>I have been asked the question as to whether I have known of any cases = >>>of an increase in aggression after a male dog has been neutered. My = >>>experience has been that if the dog has had the proper conditioning in = >>>the critical period and providing hormone levels are normal very little = >>>aggression is experienced in particular to its owners and only mild = >>>hormonally stimulated dominance is shown to those not in the immediate = >>>family. >> >> >> A remarkable observation. Could you enlarge on the specifics of >>"proper conditioning in the critical period"? >> >> >> Thanks, >> >> DBC >> > >I have found that most puppies make challenges to their peers, whether they >are dogs or human at about the ages of 12 weeks,16 weeks and again at about >6 months and 10 months. Most of these challenges take the form of rough play >and appear to be designed to establish where the dog fits within the >pack(human or dog). >If you observe a litter of pups still with their mother, you will see that >the pups will also challenge her beginning at these same ages, and she >establishes early in the patterning that she is the strongest of the group >and the challenges towards her quickly deminish in most cases by the time >the puppies reach 16 weeks, however, they continue to challenge newcomers. >Challenges still occur at the later ages but are greatly deminished if the >initial challenges that are made up to 16 weeks are properly subdued and >proper behaviour is rewarded. > >Dennis Smith >Chandler Hill Pet Behaviour Clinic >190 Chandlers Hill Road >Happy Valley. >South Australia 5159 > > > Thanks for the answer. I really like it; primarily because I have had similar observations in my practice, though I certainly have not narrowed the puppy challenges down to particular ages. The central points, for me, are your observations that aggressive challenge is a NORMAL behavior and that if this normal event is effectively dealt with, the puppy grows up to be a desireable, well balanced adult; in effect, a good team player within the pack. DBC -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 24-SEP-1998 22:50:01.26 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression Reply to message from DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA of Tue, 22 Sep > (snip) > > The behaviour (or lack of it) in some guide dogs appear to >create a cognitive dissonance in observers. The dogs perform a >valuable service and the owners are very dependent on them. Yet, >humans observing them feel uncomfortable (the one lady apparently >could not wait to leave). Why? > Since relative leadership is central to most dog/human behavior problems, I study this area of the relationship carefully for all my clients/patients. For what it is worth, I have come to believe that there are, for the most part, four kinds of owners as they relate to the leadership quotient: 1) Those who understand leadership and the need for using it to modify the behavior of their canine friend effectively. 2) Those who understand leadership, but have no appreciation for the need to apply this knowledge to their pet relationship. 3) Those who have little or no understanding of leadership. 4) Those who reject leadership as an appropriate part of their relationship with their dog(s). Since very well trained, responsive, working dogs who rarely to never step out of line (as they must to be effective, safe working dogs) have long since given up any leadership aspirations, they would seem (I would guess) to be depressed and repulsive to those in group four who see wildness and unruliness to be the ultimate expression of true dogginess. > So what are the behavioural indices of a depressed dog? > Excellent question, particularly since depression is not that easy to define or diagnose precisely in our species. >Deb > > >dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > >Deborah A. McWilliams >Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science >University of Guelph >Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 24-SEP-1998 23:16:50.05 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression I am certainly not active in the area of guide dog training, but I find it really difficult to believe that the extreme aversive measures mentioned are part of the official training protocol for such dogs; if for no other reason than that such training would not be likely to produce a very useful assistance dog. I have worked with many guide dogs in my standard practice days and cannot remember any that were not simply easy going, friendly, and loving; not a likely result of the kind of training that would result in learned helplessness. Further, if such training tactics were part of an official protocol, where is PETA when we need them? DBC Reply to message from billcamp@cdsnet.net of Tue, 22 Sep > >Hi Kathy, et. al. > >Interesting interpretation. > >I've had lots of chats about the _phenomena_ below, with people from all >sorts of disciplines. One person defined it [the apparently non-responsive >demeanor] as a POW syndrome. > >As to training and animal welfare, I truly belive that dog training >_methodology_ should be an animal welfare issue. When we read that a dog >trainer sticks her fingers down a student's nippy puppy's throat, causing a >gag response, then picks up the pup and shakes it, ala widely published >methodology, and the pup collapses and dies, etc., etc., ad infinitum. > >Just a thought, > >Bill Campbell > > >>In a message dated 98-09-21 12:55:52 EDT, you write: >> >>I would like to make sure that I am understanding the direction of the >>exchange below correctly. Am I to understand that what is being proposed here >>is that these dogs are depressed because they are trained, and that is an >>animal welfare issue? Does this mean the dogs should not be trained? Please >>clarify. >> >>Thank you, >> >>Kathy Hughes >> >><< Hi Bill! >> >> > A couple of years ago I spoke at an APDT meeting in Phoenix. Many attendees >> > and a few trainers had their dogs there. One of my group said she was going >> > to have to leave the main hall during a break. She said the dogs there were >> > so _depressed_ it was making her feel ill. >> >> Not an unusual response. I tend to feel greatly concerned when I >> see these dogs. >> >> > I thought a term that better fit the dogs' appearance might have been >> > _repression_. As a human psychiatric term, _an unconscious mental mechanism >> > wherein unacceptable desires, memories and thoughts are excluded from >> > consciousness_. >> >> The dogs are trained to exclude certain behaviours? I could >> see this. These dogs are trained even in their foster homes >> (first year of life) to sit still for long periods of time. Many >> behaviours are discouraged that would be inappropriate during >> their working life (once trained as guide dogs). I don't >> necessarily think this is true for hearing ear dogs but most other >> guide dogs may be affected. >> But would it initially be repression and develop into depression? >> >> >> > A variation of _learned helplessness_ wherein the dogs seem to be in >> > circumstances over which they have no control. >> >> If so, learned helplessness is a welfare concern. >> >> >> In some service dogs, >> > spontaneous orientation reflex reactions to incidental stimuli around them >> > seem to be lacking: Only those to which they have been _trained_ are >>noticed. >> >> Yes. These dogs seem to lack some basic reactions. I have seen >> some that appear to lose attentive skills during long periods of >> inactivity (e.g., while in a meeting with their person) and have to >> be "jerked" to attention by their person who has stood up and is >> ready to leave. >> >> >> > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"pat@shorline-ent.com" "pat@shorline-ent.com" 25-SEP-1998 01:57:23.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"applied-ethology-request@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: AD: Serious Minded Entrepreneurs Wanted /////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////////// Shoreline Enterprise 6509 Garden Grove Way Laytonsville,Md.20882 1-888-491-9212. 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Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 25-SEP-1998 07:30:13.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression/Circular Thinking > Date sent: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 13:38:08 -0700 > To: Deborah McWilliams > From: Debi Davis > Subject: Re: canine depression/Circular Thinking > The guide dog industry will be the last to change, for it is long > established. Much of what you have said reminds me of Robin Walker's "POLITICS" notation. > Too many dogs are still placed with people who have no dog-handling skills, > and a couple of weeks learning on site how to correctly use punishment on > the dog they are taking home just isn't sufficient. 2 weeks or 6 weeks does > not make a beginning dog handler a trainer, regardless of methodology. But > those who use service animals must become trainers if they want to keep > their dogs happy, healthy, and actively participating in life. I have difficulty imagining how any person can use a guide dog and not get deeply involved in the animal - emotionally, professionally and intellectually. Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 25-SEP-1998 07:54:23.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression/Circular Thinking Hey again Kathy! > Date sent: Thu, 24 Sep 1998 20:17:33 -0400 (EDT) > From: Kattykorn2@aol.com > Subject: Re: canine depression/Circular Thinking > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > << For > example, I have "heard" that some guide dog schools have failure > rates of over 50%. Is this exaggerated? >> > > AND....is this indicative of a problem with methodolgy used or selection > criteria or some other area of the program? I think it is indicative of need for study re: why. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"scripto@azstarnet.com" "Debi Davis" 25-SEP-1998 07:59:07.53 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: On Leadership Dr Cameron wrote an astute post on leadership, which gave me chills. The last sentence explains: >>Since very well trained, responsive, working dogs who rarely >to never step out of line (as they must to be effective, safe >working dogs) have long since given up any leadership aspirations, >they would seem (I would guess) to be depressed and repulsive to >those in group four who see wildness and unruliness to be the >ultimate expression of true dogginess.<< As a service dog user and trainer, I've occasionally encountered members of radical animal welfare groups who feel I am abusing this fine animal simply because he is my assistant, and not running free. "That dog is not your slave! How DARE you do this to him?" I actually heard this once at a dog show, where members of the animal welfare group later opened show dogs' crates and let them loose on the grounds to get attacked by other dogs or run over by cars. I've yet to encounter one of these activists who will wait and hear an explanation of how joyfully my dog assists me, how lovingly attentive he is, or how he works with great enthusiasm, or how his needs are always met before mine, or how he was trained without aversives. I am automatically put into a category with those who tie dogs out in the desert and allow them to reproduce at will. I truly don't understand this, and wonder where they got stuck in their study of anthropomorphism. As Kathy so eloquently explained in another post, our service dogs are treasured, respected and actually want to spend time with us. They enjoy their work, as well. So when I encounter this attitude, it hurts. It hurts because I do care about animal welfare, and spend a lot of free time educating grade school classes on responsible pet ownership. It hurts because I am automatically categorized as an enemy, without being given a chance to explain. Thanks for a great post, Dr. Cameron. Debi Davis & the service Papillons, Tucson, AZ From: IN%"research@scz.org" "Emily Weiss" 25-SEP-1998 08:15:13.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: re:canine depression/failure rates This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_lQRL82Kr2G5ofIDR6VUbUA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Between 1942 and 1947 training began on hundreds of dogs at the Guide = Dogs for the Blind school in California - Pfaffenberger's group - only = 35 of those dogs successfully completed training.(Pfaffenberger et al, = 1976). In 1947 the first puppy test for the selection of guild dogs was = developed by Pfaffenberger and Scott and was put into use by the school. = Pfaffenberger reported that the failure rate of dogs entered in the = training process but unable to complete it, decreased to approximately = 50% with the use of the selection test.=20 The test became an important asset to the training programs because, = even though 50% is a large failure rate, it is much lower than the = failure rate when no selection tool is used.=20 Others have verified these findings (Dietrich, 1983). There are some researchers who are (or have) investigating the = selection of these dogs - Goddard & Beiharz in Australia; Beaudet; = Campbell; Weiss. And there are currently new selection tools being = developed.=20 =20 Emily Weiss Curator of Behavior and Research Sedgwick County Zoo Wichita Ks, 67212 (316) 942-2212 ex. 257 --Boundary_(ID_lQRL82Kr2G5ofIDR6VUbUA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Between 1942 and 1947  training began on = hundreds of dogs=20 at the Guide Dogs for the Blind school in California - Pfaffenberger's = group -=20 only 35 of those dogs successfully completed training.(Pfaffenberger et = al,=20 1976). In 1947 the first puppy test for the selection of guild dogs was=20 developed by Pfaffenberger and Scott and was put into use by the school. = Pfaffenberger reported that the failure rate of dogs entered in the = training=20 process but unable to complete it, decreased to approximately 50% with = the use=20 of the selection test.
    The test=20 became an important asset to the training programs because, even though = 50% is a=20 large failure rate, it is much lower than the failure rate when no = selection=20 tool is used.
    Others have = verified these=20 findings (Dietrich, 1983).
    There are some = researchers=20 who are (or have) investigating the selection of these dogs - Goddard = &=20 Beiharz in Australia; Beaudet; Campbell; Weiss.  And there are = currently=20 new selection tools being developed.
       =
 
Emily Weiss
Curator of Behavior = and=20 Research
Sedgwick County Zoo
Wichita Ks, 67212
(316) 942-2212 = ex.=20 257
--Boundary_(ID_lQRL82Kr2G5ofIDR6VUbUA)-- From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-SEP-1998 08:55:17.06 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" "'D.B. Cameron, DVM'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: Hurrah! YES! Excellently put. Sadly it is probably too clear and brief to be noticed. -----Original Message----- From: D.B. Cameron [SMTP:aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu] Sent: 25 September 1998 05:49 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: canine depression Reply to message from DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA of Tue, 22 Sep > (snip) > > The behaviour (or lack of it) in some guide dogs appear to >create a cognitive dissonance in observers. The dogs perform a >valuable service and the owners are very dependent on them. Yet, >humans observing them feel uncomfortable (the one lady apparently >could not wait to leave). Why? > Since relative leadership is central to most dog/human behavior problems, I study this area of the relationship carefully for all my clients/patients. For what it is worth, I have come to believe that there are, for the most part, four kinds of owners as they relate to the leadership quotient: 1) Those who understand leadership and the need for using it to modify the behavior of their canine friend effectively. 2) Those who understand leadership, but have no appreciation for the need to apply this knowledge to their pet relationship. 3) Those who have little or no understanding of leadership. 4) Those who reject leadership as an appropriate part of their relationship with their dog(s). Since very well trained, responsive, working dogs who rarely to never step out of line (as they must to be effective, safe working dogs) have long since given up any leadership aspirations, they would seem (I would guess) to be depressed and repulsive to those in group four who see wildness and unruliness to be the ultimate expression of true dogginess. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-SEP-1998 08:58:05.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: The Semiology of Uniform Dress I suppose the guide dog must be extraordinarily calm and unflappable in order to work well. It is axiomatic that assistance dogs and seizure alert dogs are NOT anxious or aroused with any trace of fear when at work. Seizure alert dogs are ONLY here accepted for training from a baseline of indifference to seizure. From that starting point they are encouraged to be rewarded in their responses. The good alert dog waits for its owner to undergo seizure just as my Labrador watches to see it I might take him for a walk. With the guide dog wearing the harness is the cue 'work'. It is the same with nurses and soldiers. The prim and the professional go onto the peg with the regalia. The trainers of nuns and monks have not missed this trick either! They are never allowed out of the habit in case they get out of the habit! I think the sled or guide dog just slumps into resigned relaxed waiting. This is not depression. Failure in training for disciplined tasks seems to hinge on distractibility. Some dogs will not rehearse in sham scenaria. Some dogs will wander off the see what is in the woods. Not the 'right stuff' . The difference between the pet dog and the feral dog is that the former likes to eat, run around a bit and sleep a lot whereas the latter likes to eat, run around a bit and sleep a lot. Over to Rudyard Kipling for the last word. from an dyed in the wool, colonialist, Imperialist, fascistic old b**** whose heart was in the right century. for him. To rear a boy under what parents call the "sheltered life system" is, if the boy must go into the world and fend for himself, not wise. Unless he be one in a thousand he has certainly to pass through many unnecessary troubles; and may, possibly, come to extreme grief simply from ignorance of the proper proportions of things. Let a puppy eat the soap in the bath-room or chew a newly-blacked boot. He chews and chuckles until, by and by, he finds out that blacking and Old Brown Windsor make him very sick; so he argues that soap and boots are not wholesome. Any old dog about the house will soon show him the unwisdom of biting big dog's ears. Being young, he remembers and goes abroad at six months, a well-mannered little beast with a chastened appetite. If he had been kept away from boots, soap, and big dogs till he came to the trinity full-grown and with developed teeth, consider how fearfully sick and thrashed he would be! Apply that notion to the "sheltered life" and see how it works. It does not sound pretty but it is the better of two evils. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors If a madman were to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards Dr. Samuel Johnson 1776 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-SEP-1998 09:03:28.46 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: The Semiology of Uniform Dress I suppose the guide dog must be extraordinarily calm and unflappable in order to work well. It is axiomatic that assistance dogs and seizure alert dogs are NOT anxious or aroused with any trace of fear when at work. Seizure alert dogs are ONLY here accepted for training from a baseline of indifference to seizure. From that starting point they are encouraged to be rewarded in their responses. The good alert dog waits for its owner to undergo seizure just as my Labrador watches to see it I might take him for a walk. With the guide dog wearing the harness is the cue 'work'. It is the same with nurses and soldiers. The prim and the professional go onto the peg with the regalia. The trainers of nuns and monks have not missed this trick either! They are never allowed out of the habit in case they get out of the habit! I think the sled or guide dog just slumps into resigned relaxed waiting. This is not depression. Failure in training for disciplined tasks seems to hinge on distractibility. Some dogs will not rehearse in sham scenaria. Some dogs will wander off the see what is in the woods. Not the 'right stuff' . The difference between the pet dog and the feral dog is that the former likes to eat, run around a bit and sleep a lot whereas the latter likes to eat, run around a bit and sleep a lot. Over to Rudyard Kipling for the last word. from an dyed in the wool, colonialist, Imperialist, fascistic old b**** whose heart was the right century. for him. To rear a boy under what parents call the "sheltered life system" is, if the boy must go into the world and fend for himself, not wise. Unless he be one in a thousand he has certainly to pass through many unnecessary troubles; and may, possibly, come to extreme grief simply from ignorance of the proper proportions of things. Let a puppy eat the soap in the bath-room or chew a newly-blacked boot. He chews and chuckles until, by and by, he finds out that blacking and Old Brown Windsor make him very sick; so he argues that soap and boots are not wholesome. Any old dog about the house will soon show him the unwisdom of biting big dog's ears. Being young, he remembers and goes abroad at six months, a well-mannered little beast with a chastened appetite. If he had been kept away from boots, soap, and big dogs till he came to the trinity full-grown and with developed teeth, consider how fearfully sick and thrashed he would be! Apply that notion to the "sheltered life" and see how it works. It does not sound pretty but it is the better of two evils. Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors If a madman were to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards Dr. Samuel Johnson 1776 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-SEP-1998 09:05:31.52 To: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" "'D.B. Cameron, DVM'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hurrah! YES! Excellently put. Sadly it is probably too clear and brief to be noticed. -----Original Message----- From: D.B. Cameron [SMTP:aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu] Sent: 25 September 1998 05:49 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: canine depression Reply to message from DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA of Tue, 22 Sep > (snip) > > The behaviour (or lack of it) in some guide dogs appear to >create a cognitive dissonance in observers. The dogs perform a >valuable service and the owners are very dependent on them. Yet, >humans observing them feel uncomfortable (the one lady apparently >could not wait to leave). Why? > Since relative leadership is central to most dog/human behavior problems, I study this area of the relationship carefully for all my clients/patients. For what it is worth, I have come to believe that there are, for the most part, four kinds of owners as they relate to the leadership quotient: 1) Those who understand leadership and the need for using it to modify the behavior of their canine friend effectively. 2) Those who understand leadership, but have no appreciation for the need to apply this knowledge to their pet relationship. 3) Those who have little or no understanding of leadership. 4) Those who reject leadership as an appropriate part of their relationship with their dog(s). Since very well trained, responsive, working dogs who rarely to never step out of line (as they must to be effective, safe working dogs) have long since given up any leadership aspirations, they would seem (I would guess) to be depressed and repulsive to those in group four who see wildness and unruliness to be the ultimate expression of true dogginess. From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 25-SEP-1998 10:23:00.47 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"scripto@azstarnet.com" "Debi Davis" CC: Subj: RE: On Leadership Dear Debi, Welcome to the club of the reluctant messiah's (cf. Richard Bach's book). If you cannot offer the absolute, you must be destroyed... Welfare students have similar experiences. "One cannot find the truth with those people who decided in advance how it should look like" (I think it's from a certain G.Bj=F6rling) When you decide to study welfare because of your love for animals, and you fulfill your role of scientist by seeking the truth in an as objective as possible way, you are attacked 1/ when your findings do not fit what ideologists want you to find, 2/ or simply because to investigate is to "collaborate with the system". It hurts indeed... The highest human values have given rise to the most horrible practices. That happens when you get the combination of absolute believe and aggressivity. I think some animal rights activists are not motivated by love for animals but by hate of man. It is a hasard of life that they (mis)use animal welfare to express their aggressivity. They could have entered just as well an extreme political or religious movement. This induces counter-reactions and you must spend time explaining people that animal welfare is not ridiculous and is a necessity. It's a long way... Frank Prof.Dr.F.O.=D6dberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 25-SEP-1998 11:10:17.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: re: question The below information (at the request of one of our members) is provided by Dr. Pam Reid, University of Guelph, Dept. of Population Medicine: ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 98 12:01:20 -0400 To: From: "Pamela Reid" Send reply to: Subject: re: re: question Hi Deb: I don't know if I have anything intelligent to say as there is no specific definition of "depression" in dogs. Fomr your example, I get the impression you mean inhibited, "un-dog-like behaviour" in that the dog seems to be unresponsive to its environment. If I am making the incorrect assumption, then you might want to approach Karen Overall at Penn as she has given at least one talk on the subject of clinical depression and how dogs may suffer from something similar (or identical) to humans. The way I see it, the point of a lot of service dog training is to encourage calm, inhibited behaviour. Part of it is selection. Trainers choose dogs that are not hyperactive or overly responsive to stimuli (hearing ear dogs are an exception). They don't want dogs that will race off after a cat or jump all over the person sitting at the next table or startle at a loud noise (to the point of not being able to work). Part of it may also be the equipment. I have a backpack for my Border Collie and he automatically turns into a lump whenever I put it on. And third, part of the issue may be the training methods. It is no secret that guide dogs are often trained with (sometimes severe) corrections. It is very well-established that positive punishment results in a general suppression of all behaviour, at least temporarily. It is definitely not temporary suppression if the animal is unable to determine what behaviour is being punished. I find if a trainer is using punishment for a variety of behavioural responses, then it is more difficult for the dog to discern which of its behaviours to inhibit and so, as a self-protective measure, inhibiits everything to some extent. Again, for the average service dog, this is probably a plus (although I am speaking from the perspective of the owner/handler, not from a welfare perspective). Hope this helps. Pam Pamela J. Reid, Ph.D. Department of Population Medicine Ontario Veterinary College University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1 519-824-4120 ex 4065 519-763-8621 (Fax) dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 25-SEP-1998 11:25:34.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca" Subj: Applied-ethology has gone to the dogs! Dear All, I am beginning to wonder if Applied-ethology has outgrown itself from the original intention? It seems to me that the vast number of postings which relate to dogs, plus the lack of messages relating to other species (especially farm animals) has detracted from the 'usefulness' of this list-server in the eyes of individuals who I personally had hoped to attract. Now, before everyone (at least all the dog people) scream foul and tell me to learn how to use the delete button, I would remind you that I DO KNOW who is subscribed and who is NOT SUBSCRIBED to this list! Meaning, I know for certain of people (whom I respect and admire as applied-ethologists) who have unsubscribed from this list server because they do not see the value of continually discussing dog training issues and behaviour problems of dogs and cats. Certainly, there is interesting pieces of information that have wide spread application, which could relate to many species. However, I wonder if the time has come for a split in applied-ethology; where we let a subject area and all interested parties form another e-mail discussion group? Could we not have a list server called Canine-feline-ethology or Canine-feline-behaviour? Anyone interested in both list servers could subscribe to both. I do not see the value of driving away the people we had originally hoped to attract by continually discussing topics that are not of interest to the original 'share-holders' and ISAE members. Of course everyone realizes that anyone is free to discuss any topic that is of interest to them. It means that no one should unsubscribe because a topic they like is not discussed. "All of these so-called farm animal people should discuss topics that interest them too!" However, in reality it doesn't seem to work that way. Some topics and groups build momentum, and right now everyone who owns a dog wants to subscribe to the list and further discuss topics that interest them (which is dogs) and all the farm animal people are unsubscribing. Please! If there is a substantial number of people who want to specifically discuss dog and cat behaviour can we not form another list-server? Anyone at any University can seek the help from their computer systems operators (like I did) and set up a list-server. The systems (for the most part) are self-operating. Just think of the glory you will receive from your University peers when you tell them how successful your Canine-feline-ethology network is operating! Many of us 'farm animal' people may subscribe! I will give you all the information and insight I have in how to set up and administer a network. Anyone interested? Please, someone contact me and let's make the split! Otherwise at some point in the not-so-distant future I am going to have to unsubscribe myself! Thanks for letting me offend every dog and cat person on here! (But someone had to do it!) Sincerely, Joe Stookey ------------------------------ Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 25-SEP-1998 11:29:57.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression > Hello again Dr. Cameron! > For the group, as I sent the last message and forgot to include > the ISAE listserv: > > Re: Dr. Cameron's point on people who want see animals wild and > unruly: > > I agreed that this was probably important as many animals end up > abandoned and/or euthanized because they were raised with this > philosophy and became a threat to people, other animals and > themselves. > > > More from Dr. C! > > I am certainly not active in the area of guide dog training, > but > > I find it really difficult to believe that the extreme aversive > > measures mentioned are part of the official training protocol for > > such dogs > Apparently, from the input in this discussion, this element does exist. > > ; if for no other reason than that such training would not > > be likely to produce a very useful assistance dog. > Exactly. The failure rate (after training and even after assignment) is apparently quite high. DebMcw dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 25-SEP-1998 11:40:42.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: re: question The information below is provided by Dr. Pam Reid, Population Medicine, University of Guelph DebMcW ------- Forwarded Message Follows ------- Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 98 12:01:20 -0400 To: From: "Pamela Reid" Send reply to: Subject: re: re: question Hi Deb: I don't know if I have anything intelligent to say as there is no specific definition of "depression" in dogs. Fomr your example, I get the impression you mean inhibited, "un-dog-like behaviour" in that the dog seems to be unresponsive to its environment. If I am making the incorrect assumption, then you might want to approach Karen Overall at Penn as she has given at least one talk on the subject of clinical depression and how dogs may suffer from something similar (or identical) to humans. The way I see it, the point of a lot of service dog training is to encourage calm, inhibited behaviour. Part of it is selection. Trainers choose dogs that are not hyperactive or overly responsive to stimuli (hearing ear dogs are an exception). They don't want dogs that will race off after a cat or jump all over the person sitting at the next table or startle at a loud noise (to the point of not being able to work). Part of it may also be the equipment. I have a backpack for my Border Collie and he automatically turns into a lump whenever I put it on. And third, part of the issue may be the training methods. It is no secret that guide dogs are often trained with (sometimes severe) corrections. It is very well-established that positive punishment results in a general suppression of all behaviour, at least temporarily. It is definitely not temporary suppression if the animal is unable to determine what behaviour is being punished. I find if a trainer is using punishment for a variety of behavioural responses, then it is more difficult for the dog to discern which of its behaviours to inhibit and so, as a self-protective measure, inhibiits everything to some extent. Again, for the average service dog, this is probably a plus (although I am speaking from the perspective of the owner/handler, not from a welfare perspective). Hope this helps. Pam Pamela J. Reid, Ph.D. Department of Population Medicine Ontario Veterinary College University of Guelph Guelph, Ontario N1G 2W1 519-824-4120 ex 4065 519-763-8621 (Fax) dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 25-SEP-1998 11:50:34.07 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: guide dogs Hello again Dr. Cameron! For the group, as I sent the last message and forgot to include the ISAE listserv: Re: Dr. Cameron's point on people who want see animals wild and unruly: I agreed that this was probably important as many animals end up abandoned and/or euthanized because they were raised with this philosophy and became a threat to people, other animals and themselves. More from Dr. C! > > I am certainly not active in the area of guide dog training, > but > > I find it really difficult to believe that the extreme aversive > > measures mentioned are part of the official training protocol for > > such dogs > Apparently, from the input in this discussion, this element does exist. > > ; if for no other reason than that such training would not > > be likely to produce a very useful assistance dog. > Exactly. The failure rate (after training and even after assignment) is apparently quite high. DebMcw dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 --NAA25004.906745276/wright.aps.uoguelph.ca-- dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 25-SEP-1998 12:17:03.03 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"darwin-and-darwinism-request@sheffield.ac.uk" "Darwin List_Serve", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Matt Ridley Contact Sorry to trouble you; I'm stymied. I need an email for Matt Ridley (Origins of Virtue) in the UK. Or, plea= se ask him to contact me (jbrody@compuserve.com) in regard to teaching at Ca= pe Cod this summer. Many thanks! Jim Brody From: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts" 25-SEP-1998 14:14:26.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Autocommunication Well blow me if there hasn't been a lot of guff about depressed doggies on the list lately:) I'm inclined to agree with Joe Stookey. Maybe it's time for dog and cat fans to go form their own list. This list was never intended to exclude discussion of any legitimate applied ethology issues (which certainly could include dog training and pet behaviour problems). But it's a question of balance. The people who have used this list in the past have a wide range of ethological interests, but perhaps tended to work mainly in the area of farm animal behaviour and welfare. It was these people, members of the ISAE and others with related interests that the list was intended for. As a student of farm animal behaviour it was valuable for me to be able to read, and sometimes take part in, discussions involving some of the well known researchers in this field. If, as Joe writes, many of these people have left because they don't feel it serves their interests any more, then it isn't serving my interests too well either. A return to ethological discussion (including dog/cat issues as well as farm animal) on something approaching a scientific level would be a welcome change from the narrow-ranging torrent of shaggy dog stories that dominate right now. I would like to urge those who feel as I do (who haven't already unsubscribed, like I nearly did yesterday) to jump in and try to steer the list back into some more interesting discussions. Whether these be specific behaviour or welfare issues in livestock production or more general issues in ethology, behavioural ecology or whatever. If we can reestablish this list as a good forum to discuss our ideas and questions maybe we can attract a few people back. I'm not sure if this qualifies as such an attempt but I've got a vague, half-baked question I wanted to ask. It has to do with vocal communication (my interest is in cattle, but whatever). It may not yield much of a scientific discussion, but it makes a change, at least. The word "autocommunication" (ie communicating with oneself) seems to be used almost synonymously with echolocation. Obviously a bat can emit high frequency sounds, the reflections of which provide itself with information about the environment. You might want to argue whether this truly constitutes an act of communication, rather than being just a specialised sensory mechanism. Similarly, pilots of aircraft communicate by radio (ie exchange information with other persons), they don't communicate by radar. They just use radar to get information about their surroundings. Radio and radar both require the transmission of particular frequencies of electromagnetic radiation, just as conversation and echolocation both require sound impulses to be propagated through the air. On the other hand, considering what I normally think of as sensible definitions of communication, in the case of echolocating bats there is both a sender and a receiver (they just happen to be the same individual) and the receiver gains information from the interaction which is both meaningful and unpredicatable and which it otherwise would not have known. Also the receiver does modify it's behaviour on the basis of information thus acquired. Thus echolocation would qualify as communication in some senses. The word "autocommunication" has also been used to describe the activities of some animals which may leave scent marks in their environment, primarily to serve as a reminder to the marking individual itself about the extent of its own territory. My question is, do the vocalizations of cattle (or any other species you may be familiar with) have any property that might be described as autocommunicative? Does the act of vocalizing, of itself, influence the vocalizer's subsequent behaviour. Could vocalization by a distressed animal, for example, serve to calm the animal in some way, that was independent of its function as an act of communication with other individuals? Do individuals in species which use vocal displays, monitor the quality of their own vocalizations and use that information to modify either their subsequent vocalizations or other aspects of their behaviour? In short, how does the act of vocalizing change the animal that does it? Maybe its a bit off the wall, but the idea that animals might, so to speak, "talk to themselves" intrigued me. I wondered if there was any evidence for it. I'd be interested to hear if anyone had any thoughts on it. (I'd be less interested to know how surprised Fifi was, the first time she heard herself howl.) Jon ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- Jon Watts (___) ) ) University of Saskatchewan |o o|___________/ ( Dept of Herd Medicine O \#/ | ) and Theriogenology |bser| | Statistical | ( Western College of Vet. Med. |vati| | analysis | ) 52 Campus Drive |ons.| \___________/| *& Saskatoon ------ || || %$#@ S7N 1B4 / \ || || ^*@*~ Canada &^%%#$@ wattsjon@duke.usask.ca "The Holy Cow" ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 25-SEP-1998 15:42:19.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Cows: Three Topics I have been wanting to ask cattle questions for ages but 'doggoned' if I could get a word in edgeways. 1. Are cattle changing in their behaviour toward humans (and their dogs). There have been two or three very nasty incidents recently in which dog owners out in the pastures with their pets have been injured or killed and their dogs killed (or escaped). Could it be that the reduction of numbers of people living and working on the farms is reducing the habituation of cattle? Has anyone been monitoring these accidents? What advice can we give? one lady was killed and her dogs escaped when she presumably dropped the leads. Another was seriously injured and her dogs killed but they were a small breed which would perhaps have tried to stay with her. 2. About 3 years ago I asked the List for information about the agility of cattle. This was for a student who wished to pursue a historical project. I suggested that she examine the Celtic dyke and bank earthworks which seemed to be possible method of segregating the tribal cattle wealth and also a means in Roman and early Mediaeval times of impeding the progress of wagon folk who might be migrating in avoidance of taxation. Vide Offa's Dyke. Hadrian's Vallum and the miles of Celtic banks in southern England. The nature of the steep ditch and the rising bank seemed to me to be a particularly difficult obstacle for cattle. Unfortunately the student lost interest and also was unable to return the notes and introductions that I had gleaned from various sources. I would be most obliged if anyone might have views on cattle negotiating such dykes as I would like to follow this up myself. 3. I have just been watching the TV News about Welsh farmers buying antibiotics and estrumate etc over the phone from mail order outlets in Ireland. Their excuse is that Veterinary retail expenses and services are insupportable. My feeling is that the Farming community have used financial expediency to avoid adherence to every constraint in recent years. They have fraudulently circumvented BSE regulations, slaughter regulations, carcass disposal criteria and now are using drugs without professional constraints to the possible harm of us all in the long term. Is the ethology and husbandry of livestock ripe for a radical review. Are there too many farmers? should they be subject to the same market forces as fisherman and steelworkers? should we have professionally run latifundia and larger concerns rather than a desperate peasantry? Seems like an Ethology Topic to me. Robin From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 26-SEP-1998 00:31:49.13 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Re:Autocommunication Jon Watts wrote:- could vocalization by a distressed animal, for example, serve to calm the animal in some way, that was independent of its function as an act of communication with other individuals? Do individuals in species which use vocal displays, monitor the quality of their own vocalizations and use that information to modify either their subsequent vocalizations or other aspects of their behaviour? In short, how does the act of vocalizing change the animal that does it? In temporal lobe seizure the patient may make vocalizations:- . "Complex partial seizures are epileptic seizures characterized by impairment but without total loss of consciousness. They may have motor components which may be walking, stamping, jabbering, repeated vocalization (palilalia), tonic or clonic head movements. Autonomic symptoms may include pallor, flushing, vomiting, sweating, piloerection, pupil dilatation, borborygmia and incontinence. Affective or emotional signs can include fear, anger or rage." I hesitate to mention this but I hospitalised a dog last month with such a seizure disturbance. He muttered and growled to himself in a curious way.*** Should we be surprised by this? We scream in panic, we gibber in distress. We also sing or chant rhythmically to make ourselves feel better or happier. The Howling Dervish "honks" until he has a physiological crisis due to the hyperventilation. Is this wholly different to the monotonous barking of the distressed dog? What is the personal achievement for the howling wolf? I believe the "evolutionary psychologists" have things to say about singing and brain health. [Are Brody or Bloom reading this? What did Skoyles say recently?] I would say there is a lot to look into here. *** Er.. I had a guide (seeing eye) dog in here last week it had a gastric torsion which I got to inside 2 hours. After surgery and gastropexy it was reunited with its blind owner 3 days later. The joyful reunion of this highly bonded pair seemed to override any nonsense about slavery. (sorry) Robin "I have principles! If you don't like them I have others" Groucho Marx Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors If a madman were to come into this room with a stick in his hand, no doubt we should pity the state of his mind; but our primary consideration would be to take care of ourselves. We should knock him down first, and pity him afterwards Dr. Samuel Johnson 1776 From: IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com" "Chris Redenbach" 26-SEP-1998 07:40:22.28 To: IN%"wattsjon@duke.usask.ca" "Jon Watts", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Autocommunication At 02:14 PM 9/25/98 -0600, you wrote: > > >My question is, do the vocalizations of cattle (or any other species you >may be familiar with) have any property that might be described as >autocommunicative? Does the act of vocalizing, of itself, influence the >vocalizer's subsequent behaviour. >Could vocalization by a distressed >>animal, for example, serve to calm the animal in some way, that was >>independent of its function as an act of communication with other >>individuals? Do individuals in species which use vocal displays, monitor >>the quality of their own vocalizations and use that information to modify >>either their subsequent vocalizations or other aspects of their behaviour? >>In short, how does the act of vocalizing change the animal that does it? >> >>Maybe its a bit off the wall, but the idea that animals might, so to >>speak, "talk to themselves" intrigued me. I wondered if there was any >>evidence for it. I'd be interested to hear if anyone had any thoughts on >>it. >> >> >>Jon > There are some people who use vocalizations in specific tones and for specific durations as aids to health. They feel that the powerful vibrations at different resonances have healing effects in the body. The sounds are produced with full use of the breath to move internal organs from low in the abdomen. When I read your post what first came to mind is the possibility that vocalization could enter into a sort of loop that would increase some states of arousal.....for example, in threat behavior of some species, the vocalizations could serve to aid the animal in reaching a readiness to attack. This may qualify as a self referral thing...huff or growl ( you would have to fill in what cattle do) and feel stronger, so huff and growl some more and feel stronger still...etc. In fact, it may have begun as a self referral thing and became communication secondarily since those sounds came to be recognized as a warning that the state of their producer was reaching dangerous levels. Humans have used war chants to effect similar ends of increasing arousal and readiness. The thing is, is this an auditory self referral or has it more to do with the changes in breathing and the vibration of internal organs that would increase the state? Or Is vocalization just a part of some other thing that is going on, and together, the modifications alter behavior. I have always wondered about people saying that a "good cry" is helpful in making one feel better about something. But whenever I have cried it has not made me feel better, but worse....changes in sinuses, puffy eyes, etc. So I guess the self referral effect of vocalizations could also be dependent upon whether it affects the body in other ways. I have wondered how the distress sounds of some baby animals may affect the baby itself...does it help them stimulate themselves to maintain a state that promotes survival? ( What about the costs of attracting predators as opposed to the pay off of attracting mom? Or the cost of calories used when the time of the next meal is unknown?) Or does the vocaliztion aid as well in achieving some internal state that has a survival benefit despite this cost? I wonder this because I have often seen little animals vocalizing their little stress calls without attracting the attention....or at least action of their mom. I wonder if some calls are for the arousal of the baby itself and others of a different quality that mom recognizes, but I do not, are for soliciting aid. It is interesting that you asked if distress vocalizations may help to calm an animal and my first thought was that distress vocalizations may help arouse the animal into maintaining a state that will help it find a way out of its distress and become more directed in its actions. Perhaps the two are the same at different levels of processing. I don't know much about cows, but the sounds coming from my neighbor's field are impressive indeed. I cannot imagine that those roars they emit, accompanied by elvation of the head and extension of the neck, don't have some sort of significant physiological effect as they are produced. I have always wanted to understand what they were meant to convey given the amount of effort that goes into producing them. I think that the idea of the vibrations that I started this piece with could be a way of changing the animal that produces it. There are legitimate (in the sense of old and respected) religions who think that some sounds have their own meaning...and from this comes certain patterns of chanting they use. The belief is that it is the precise sound in itself that has natural meaning contained in its vibrations and not some outside association that was at some point arbitrarily assigned. Right now that is probably too metaphysical a question, but there may be a physicist out there somewhere who could offer info on that level. Chris Redenbach Chris From: IN%"mlos@ciudad.com.ar" "Mario Lopez Oliva" 26-SEP-1998 11:23:40.52 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Estimado Frank Encantado de conocerte, desde ya que todos los temas acerca del caballo y su problematica son tratados en este Forum, asi como tambien los temas que de nuestra especialidad, para mi es realmente importante que profesionales de todo el mundo se suscriban y opinen y den su punto de vista ya que es de esta forma donde nos enriqueceremos mas y mejoraremos mas rapidamente. Por otra parte te voy a contar que yo personalmente estoy muy interesado en el comportamiento equino desde hace aproximadamente 10 anios, yo me dedico a la atencion clinica de caballos de carrera, los cuales como sabras estan sometidos a grandes exigencias de entrenamiento y campania, el tema de los problemas de conducta generados en estos equinos me llevo a formar un grupo interdisciplinario de veterinarios para poder determinar la cantidad de cballos que sufren de stress cronico y como concecuencia de esto manifiestan o no algun problema de conducta, Con respecto a las estereotipias son las que mas comunmente aparecen en nuestro medio y me parece barbaro el estudio que estan haciendo. Espeo no solamente que te suscribas en el forum sino tambien que participes activamente tu y todos los colegas que conozcas y que esten interesados een estar en este Forum. Por las letras tipo acentos y demas no te preocupesTe mando un saludo a vos y a todo Belgica cualquier cosa que necesites no dejes de escribir Mario Dr Mario Lopez Oliva Tel 54-1-7849498 mlos@ciudad.com.ar ICQ# 6596304 From: IN%"ffab@po.anoa.or.jp" 26-SEP-1998 21:48:52.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: new list-user -- Self introduction Hello all, As nicely requested I would like to introduce myself. My name if Fabien Sena, i am 26 year old and come from France. I am currently living in Japan. I hope you will forgive me if I ask some naive questions, I have no formation in ethology and quite none in science, in fact my majors were Chinese language and civilization and cross-cultural communication. I could maybe define myself as a linguist or a philologist, but I certainly won't as I didn't prove myself efficient in none of those fields. Right now I am just a Webmaster ;-) My interest in applied ethology came from ... Martial arts. One of my masters was very interested by the works of Konrad Lorenz on "global ethology" and we had great conversations about the importance of ritual behaviors in martial arts, war and basic streetfight. I made some research about this fascinating field and finally found this mailing list. As I see human being as an "animal among others" and as many wise men said "know yourself to know the others", I hope to find some answers to some questions I may have :-) Also .. please forgive my bad english, I speak few languages but none of them properly ;-) If I am not clear don't hesitate to tell me to reformulate my post. Thank you for your time, best regards, fabien From: IN%"fg12_89b@gh56s.com.it" 27-SEP-1998 00:36:33.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Medical Equipment HBA International Inc. is a supplier of medical equipment for hospitals and EMS services. If you have received this E-mail by mistake please disreguard. 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HBA International Inc. 8352 East 96th Street Suite 110 Indianapolis, IN 46038 From: IN%"cgaboury@total.net" 27-SEP-1998 01:24:51.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Autocommunication Hi everyone! > > When I read your post what first came to mind is the possibility that > vocalization could enter into a sort of loop that would increase some > states of arousal.....for example, in threat behavior of some species, the > vocalizations could serve to aid the animal in reaching a readiness to attack. > This may qualify as a self referral thing...huff or growl ( you would have > to fill in what cattle do) and feel stronger, so huff and growl some more > and feel stronger still...etc. In fact, it may have begun as a self > referral thing and became communication secondarily since those sounds came > to be recognized as a warning that the state of their producer was reaching > dangerous levels. > Humans have used war chants to effect similar ends of increasing arousal > and readiness. > > The thing is, is this an auditory self referral or has it more to do with > the changes in breathing and the vibration of internal organs that would > increase the state? Or Is vocalization just a part of some other thing that > is going on, and together, the modifications alter behavior. > *****I remember taking a karate class where the instructor insisted that we let out a yell (HYAHHH!!!) as we "karate chopped" an imaginary adversary...he claimed our "chops" (accompanied by a yell) would be 30% stronger than if we were silent! I have always wondered about people saying that a "good cry" is helpful in > making one feel better about something. But whenever I have cried it has > not made me feel better, but worse....changes in sinuses, puffy eyes, etc. *****Apparently the chemical make-up of "crying tears" is different than the chemical make-up of ordinary tears, such as the tears resulting from slicing an onion. The authors claimed that "crying tears" contained toxins and that getting rid of these toxins was what made the "cryer" feel better. I have wondered how the distress sounds of some baby animals may affect the baby itself...does it help them stimulate themselves to maintain a state that promotes survival? ( What about the costs of attracting predators as opposed to the pay off of attracting mom? Or the cost of calories used when the time of the next meal is unknown?) Or does the vocaliztion aid as well in achieving some internal state that has a survival benefit despite this cost? I wonder this because I have often seen little animals vocalizing their little stress calls without attracting the attention....or at least action of their mom. I wonder if some calls are for the arousal of the baby itself and others of a different quality that mom recognizes, but I do not, are for soliciting aid. *****If vocalizers vocalize when in distress and receive aid from their moms more often than they get eaten by predators. And as a result they survive and reproduce in greater quantities than non-vocalizers who don't vocalize when in distress and rarely get eaten by predators but rarely get help from their moms, and so they die due to this neglect, then this strategy can work, with or without the possible added benefit of the calming effects of vocalizing. *****I read of a study where birds were either fed by a wall which provided a good cover from predators vs. birds which were fed out in the open. The birds feeding in the "safer" environment (by the wall) were relatively quiet, attracting few con-specifics and as a result, each individual obtained more food than those individuals in the second group which was fed out in the open. This second group was significantly more vocal than those fed by the wall and thus attracted more con-specifics which led the authors to propose that the birds feeding out in the open benefitted from feeding in a group (more eyes for vigilence, dilution effect). The cost, however, was that each individual obtained less food. Chantal. From: IN%"ffab@po.anoa.or.jp" 27-SEP-1998 07:58:49.25 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: new list-user -- Self introduction At 01:26 98/09/27 -0400, you wrote: >Hello Fabien, Hello Chris and everybody, > >I am very interested in what your master and you think about the rituals >you mention. >As you learn or when you have an observation to make about this topic, >please share the idea with us. Surely will do ;-) If you find me too noisy don't hesitate to shut me up ;-) >I would like to know what you and your master think about the use of space >in these rituals. Ok I cannot talk for my friend, and nonetheless master, but here is my thoughts. If you talk about "space" like the distance (in jap. ma-ai) between 2 ppl, I think this has much to do with the "territory" aspect. If another "rival" trespass the "territory limits" the response will much probably be aggressivity and this aggressivity can lead to an "open confrontation" if the "rival" doesn't "recognize" the authority of the "owner". I bet it's nothing new under the sun. In combat, the "territory" becomes the "vital space" (usually the area where you can be safe and the closest possible to the opponent(s), you can easily touch him/them but can also have a little time to react), of course this is not applicable for martial sports where there is no death risk. >A book I am reading now is called THe >Adapted Mind and itis edited by J. Barkow, L.Cosmides and J, Tooby. It is >very very good. > As soon as I find it (which may take time here ;-) I will read it >I have read a relatively old book by Edward Hall called the Hidden >Dimension. He speaks of the "science" of "proxemics" and the use of space >as a communication construct. In teh book he says that our Western streets >are named, but that in Japan, it is not the streets that have names, but >instead it is the intersections of the streets. Is that true, or was it >true 20 years ago? It is still true. In fact that is one of the most disturbing things that have to face French friends when they come visit us. As you may know in France we have a name for every street and there are odd and even numbers for each door according the side of the street. Here in japan there are no names (save for really big streets, thanks to Western influence), but each town is separated in several area (which have a name) each of them separated in several blocks (which have numbers) , each block is separated in sub-section (which have also numbers) and then in each sub section houses have a numbers. I.e. my address is Kumamoto-shi (the town), Obiyama (the area) 3 (third block) 20 (20th sub-section) 16 (16th house) and to be sure you add the name of the building if applicable. Of course there are no signs on the street to tell you where you are and to be funnier the numbers are no in logical order but "historical order" (Kyoto is great as it is one of the oldest town and all streets are situated from the imperial palace, New-Yorkers never get lost here). The only way to not get lost is to 1/ have a map 2/ speak and read japanese (and the mailboxes). Japanese ppl rely heavily on maps and it is not rare to have a map on the back of you private name card. Maybe does this have something to do with the "community" feelings deeply rooted in japanese culture (on the contrary every single chinese little street has its own name). > >You may want to search the web for a home page site about the >Eibl-Eibesfeldt center for human ethology. I would give you the address, >but my modem went down just after I heard of its existence and it is only >your post that reminds me to search for it again. > Will look for it ASAP. Thank you for your reply. fabien. From: IN%"ffab@po.anoa.or.jp" 27-SEP-1998 07:58:58.74 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Autocommunication At 03:25 98/09/27 -0400, you wrote: >Hi everyone! >> >> When I read your post what first came to mind is the possibility that >> vocalization could enter into a sort of loop that would increase some >> states of arousal.....for example, in threat behavior of some species, the >> vocalizations could serve to aid the animal in reaching a readiness to attack. >> This may qualify as a self referral thing...huff or growl ( you would have >> to fill in what cattle do) and feel stronger, so huff and growl some more >> and feel stronger still...etc. In fact, it may have begun as a self >> referral thing and became communication secondarily since those sounds came >> to be recognized as a warning that the state of their producer was reaching >> dangerous levels. >> Humans have used war chants to effect similar ends of increasing arousal >> and readiness. I cannot talk for other species but vocalizations (that I understand as sounds or song emitted with closed or opened mouth) may lead to a "modified state of consciousness", maybe it is due to vibrations or something else, I don't know. You can experiment that in a Gospel band, a rock concert or a techno party. Vocalizations "sound" to me like a self-(re)creation of a sound/vibration to reach such or such state of consciousness. So now, can animals (mammals most probably) also use/create sounds for a specific purpose like healing, I have no clue. >*****I remember taking a karate class where the instructor insisted that >we let out a yell (HYAHHH!!!) as we "karate chopped" an imaginary >adversary...he claimed our "chops" (accompanied by a yell) would be 30% >stronger than if we were silent! Hmm, with all respect due to this teacher the most powerful strike is with "silence scream", which is more likely close to interior vocalizations described above. Usually teachers ask to "beginners" to yell to overpass "shyness". Also screaming like this is good to mobilize more "physical energy" then generate adrenalin and after a little while (like 100 punches yelling loudly) endomorphines. Maybe someone specialized with hormones can explain / confirm/ deny all this much better than me. If anyone have any thoughts ... fabien From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 27-SEP-1998 13:17:49.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: FW: Bonding and oxytocin -----Original Message----- From: schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl [SMTP:schilder@neuretp.biol.ruu.nl] Sent: 21 August 1997 12:02 To: robin@coape.win-uk.net Subject: Re: Bonding and oxytocin I would repeat some correspondence on oxytocin and bonding and update it with notes on two maternal/neonate bonding episodes in this Practice. It so happens that the subjects are 'dogs' but I think oxytocin is of wider species interest perhaps! >Date: Thu, 21 Aug 1997 07:14:57 +0100 >From: R E Walker >Subject: Bonding and oxytocin >To: "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" > >From: Wilsson@aol.com =C4SMTP:Wilsson@aol.com=C5 >Sent: 20 August 1997 12:09 >To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca >Subject: Re:Unknown virus > >In a message dated 97-08-20 03:50:15 EDT, you write: > ><< Our female pet lab gave birth to 9 puppies in June,1997. She has = never >shown > aggressive behavior before the delivery nor is showing any now. She's = a > family pet and is great around children and people. She is always very >gentle > and would never intentionally hurt anything. She's around the sire = everyday > (family pet) and also around small farm animals (geese, ducks, pony, = rabbits > etc) and has never shown aggressive behavior. Shortly after their = delivery, > she began biting them on their heads causing serious injury to most of = them. > This was her second litter, the first being in early October 1996, = which she > had no problem with. We immediately called our vet, and several other = vets > in the area to see if they had heard of this happening before. None of = them > could understand this. >> > >I have observed a similar behaviour a couple of times on German = shepherd >bitches in the breeding kennel at The Swedish Dog Traning Center. The >behaviour vanished after one subcutanous injection of oxytocine (0.1 = ml) and >never appeared after that. The same results were achieved on dogs of = others >breeds, showing exactly the same symtoms. In some of the cases these = bitches >have had previous litters without showing any abnormal behaviour. My = only >explanation is that the normal secretion of oxtytocine in those cases = for >some reason have been disturbed.=20 > >Erik Wilsson > > >This is extremely interesting. I understand from some correspondence = two years=20 >ago that bonding is an emotional response mediated by oxytocin = release....it also,=20 >however, tends to interfere with memory (a phenomenon reported by = nursing mothers trying=20 >to hold down careers whilst suckling infants). =20 > >A very recent report described "post orgasmic amnesia" in men. Whilst=20 >this is another phenomenon familiar to the flippant...it does point up = the possible role of=20 >oxytocin in male orgasm, memory management and bonding misadventures. > >Sadly I canot recall where I read this..I think it was in the Guardian. > > >Robin Walker Another explanation is that oxytosin inhibits predatory behaviour. This = is=20 functional in animals of prey like dogs, since puppies have a prey-like = size and=20 could easily be swallowed. The inhibition of predatory behaivour should = last as=20 long as it takes for the mother to imprint upon her newborns. In cats, = this=20 takes two days (I forgot where I read this, but there is at least one = reference=20 on this subject. So, if there is not enough oxitosin for some reason, predatory behaviour = may=20 start and pups kiled and eaten. greetings,=20 Matthijs Schilder Two weeks ago I performed Caesarean section on two bitches in dystocia. 1. A four and a half year old maiden (first litter) Schautzer. There = was=20 complete uterine inertia, no contractions, no foetal fluids. Three very = large=20 foeti were removed alive. Mother awoke and appeared intensely nervous of the puppies backing away and trembling.=20 2. A three and a half year old maiden Pembroke Corgi. There had been=20 slight contractions and some foetal fluid. Again three very large foeti were removed alive. Oxytocin had been injected futilely prior to surgery as was repeated after uterine emptying as there was some=20 endometrial bleeding. On awakening the bitch was immediately and very intensely maternal toward the puppies. In subsequent days she has been highly maternal according to the breeder. The Schnautzer overcame its aversion and bonded after being restrained and subject to suckling by the pups. There is clear indication that oxytocin has a major role in maternal=20 bonding but I am intrigued about the possibillity of its use in other species and possibly in cases of fear aversion or aggression to conspecifics. Any thoughts on this? Robin Walker I2 have principles. If you don't like them, I have others." Groucho Marx=00=00 From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 27-SEP-1998 16:23:53.71 To: IN%"hbe-request@a3.com" "HBES List Serve", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych" CC: Subj: Chris Redenbach Chris, I accidentally deleted your post to me; I really wanted a go at your questions. Please re-transmit. (sorry!) Jim Brody From: IN%"bob.kilgour@smtpgwy.agric.nsw.gov.au" 27-SEP-1998 18:36:12.24 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Autocommunication I know nothing about vocalisation in cattle except for some very limited observations. One of the most striking of these was during my undergraduate days in the 60's. We were being shown how to dehorn cattle using a large set of metal cutters and no anaesthetic. The animal being dehorned was in obvius distress, struggling and vocalising loudly. However, what I thought was striking was that the animals waiting to be dehorned showed no signs, at least overt signs, of distress. Was this a case of the animal bellowing for its own benefit or simply a lack of reaction in animals that fully understood that something unpleasant was likely to happen? I do, however, know a little more about sheep. During the course of experiments on differences in behaviour between Merino sheep selected for lamb-rearing ability and unselected sheep we showed that, in an arena test, the selected sheep bleated less. What we also noticed, but never documented, was that there were at least two sorts of bleats. The first of these was a low-pitched mumble (m-m-m-m-m-m-m-m) while the second was a loud, high-pitched bleat with the mouth open and tongue protruding. Our impression was that the low-pitched bleat was self-communicative while the high-pitched bleat was at least an expression of agitation. Another impression was that the selected animals performed mostly low-pitched bleats and the unselected animals performed the high-pitched bleats. (The arena test data also showed that the selected animals were less nervous than the unselected animals.) Trish Murphy et al (1994; Proc Aust Soc Anim Prod 20:247-250) have also reported the occurrence of high-pitched bleats Bob Kilgour Agricultural Research Centre Trangie NSW 2823 AUSTRALIA Phone +61 2 6888 7404 Fax +61 2 6888 7201 bob.kilgour@agric.nsw.gov.au From: IN%"Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk" "=?iso-8859-1?Q?Birte_Lindstr=F8m_Nielsen?=" 28-SEP-1998 00:49:09.74 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "'Robin Walker'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca'" Subj: Killer-Cows Dear Robin I am intriqued about these Killer-cattle - where and when did this = happen, what breed of cattle was it, and how many dogs and old ladies did they = kill? Birte ______________________________________ Birte L Nielsen Afd. for Husdyrsundhed og Velf=E6rd Forskningscenter Foulum Postboks 50 DK-8830 Tjele Danmark Phone: (+45) 8999 1373 Fax: (+45) 8999 1500 Email: birte.nielsen@agrsci.dk From: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" 28-SEP-1998 01:03:44.15 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cows: Three Topics On Fri, 25 Sep 1998, Robin Walker wrote: > 1. Are cattle changing in their behaviour toward humans > (and their dogs). There have been two or three very > nasty incidents recently in which dog owners out > in the pastures with their pets have been injured > or killed and their dogs killed (or escaped). > > Could it be that the reduction of numbers of people > living and working on the farms is reducing the > habituation of cattle? My dog is a herding breed and if I hike where there are cattle he likes to round them all up and bring them with us. The cows don't like this and they've charged the dog and myself. Fortunately for both of us the dog has also somehow aquired the neat trick of stopping or turning a cow by jumping up and hanging onto her nose. Since I can't allow the dog to worry cattle, find being chased by cows less than fun, and can't figure out how to stop him without leashing him, I just don't take him to such places any more. I have not been chased by cows while hiking -without- my dog since I was a child. I'm often -followed- by cows (usually young-looking ones) who seem to be curious but not agressive. Seems they think a human being without a truck is quite an oddity. If I ride by on a bicycle more of the cows are interested and follow, older ones too. Based on this meager evidence and bearing in mind that there are no bulls in these herds, I hypothesise that the incidents happened not because the cows are not habituated to humans but because they were being worried by the dogs, or had been worried by dogs in the past. Have there been any attacks on people walking in the same pastures without dogs? From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 28-SEP-1998 02:05:03.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: FW: Killer-Cows -----Original Message----- From: Robin Walker [SMTP:robin@coape.win-uk.net] Sent: 28 September 1998 08:36 To: 'Birte Lindstr=F8m Nielsen' Subject: RE: Killer-Cows Dear Birte, I kept the 3rd newspaper article as I realised that this was a series! Helen Cowmeadow (!) was the 40+ mother who had 24 ribs broken whilst walking a border terrier along a familiar foot-path. No details other that the "cows gathered round the dog" are given and the lady was unable to speak when the story went to=20 press on Friday April 10. The dog escaped. the incident was in Bloxham in Oxfordshire. the Health and Safety Inspector of the=20 Agricultural Division of the DHSS is Tony Mitchell and was going to investigate. An independent veterinary consultant Dr. Tony Andrews says the "simple solution is to keep the dog on a lead" I feel that there might be a moment when it is politic to get it off the lead fairly fast! The previous attack I kept no notes of but the woman died and possibly one of her dogs. Last year an 80 yr. old was killed near Bromyard Herefordshire and her two dogs (again on a foot path) survived. My assistant Karen Wade (MRCVS) was on a footpath here in Worcester when some Friesian bullocks went for her inoffensive Labrador bitch Womble. Karen released her dog and stood back and was able to shoo the cattle away from her. Womble dodged under a fence. I raised this topic in Oct 96 :- when a farmer was attacked by a bull whilst handling a calf and then apparently "saved" by the intervention of the cows which fended of the bull and ringed the injured farmer and the calf ! (better than a doggy story What?) My feeling is don't fall down or crawl around in the=20 presence of excited cattle. Robin -----Original Message----- From: Birte Lindstr=F8m Nielsen [SMTP:Birte.Nielsen@agrsci.dk] Sent: 28 September 1998 07:45 To: 'Robin Walker' Cc: 'applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca' Subject: Killer-Cows Dear Robin I am intriqued about these Killer-cattle - where and when did this = From: IN%"ankind@netcomuk.co.uk" "ankind" 28-SEP-1998 02:20:51.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Fw: chat with us monday For interest. Note October 14 chat session on dog behaviour and training. Kind Regards > ---taojones@mindspring.com wrote: > ------------------------------------message--------------------------------- --------------- > > You are invited to the DOGHEAVEN Chat Room, THIS MONDAY > > > > September 28th, at 8 p.m., for a discussion, > > Dealing With Grief In the Loss of Your Pet,with guest, TerryMcMahon. > > Terry is a counselor for PetFriends, Inc., a Pet Grief Support > > Telephone Hotline. > > > > The DOGHEAVEN CHATROOM is located at http://www.dogheaven.com/chat.htm > > > > You will be requested to make a format choice and enter a username and > > > > password. Our suggestion is the "pro" version of chat, which will make > > a variety of > > > > convenience functions available to you. Once you have established your > > > > password and username, they will always be good for accessing and > using > > the > > room. The DOGHEAVEN CHATROOM is open to anyone for any reason. If you > > wish to hold your own meetings and invite others, be our guest. This > > service is always FREE. > > > > We hope you will join us THIS MONDAY EVENING AT 8 > > P.M. > > > > The purpose of this notice to you is not for solicitation. DOGHEAVEN > > > > provides an information and educational service which is always FREE. > > This > > > > is our invitation to you. > > > > Coming OCTOBER 14, A Dogheaven Chatroom session on Behavior and > > Trainning. > > > > Sincerely, > > > > Cleveland Wheeler > > > > The purpose of this notice to you is not for solicitation or sale of > > any product.. DOGHEAVEN provides an information and educational > service > > which is always FREE. This is our invitation to you. Another reminder > > will be mailed to you shortly before this session date. Coming soon, A > > Dogheaven Chatroom session on Behavior and Trainning. > > > > 4C29,506B,5999This message is sent in compliance > > of the new e-mail bill: SECTION 301, Paragraph (a)(2)(C) of s. 1618 > > > > C R Wheeler > > > > P O Box 8057 > > > > Madeira Beach, Florida 33738 > > > > > > 4C29,506B,5999 > > > > "An animal's eyes have the power to speak a great language." - Martin > > Buber > > > > Visit : Dogheaven: http://www.dogheaven.com > > > > Visit : The fine art of Geoffrey Darin Wheeler. > > > > http://www.angelfire.com/tn/darinwheeler/ > > > > Visit: Dogheaven Chat: http://www.dogheaven.com/chat.htm > > > > Visit: Dogheaven Bark! Message Center: > > http://www.dogheaven.com/bark.htm > > > > Visit: Dogheaven Bookstore: http://www.dogheaven.com/bookstore.htm > > > > Visit: Dogheaven Shops: http://www.dogheaven.com/sponsor.htm > > > > > > WHEN YOU SUPPORT DOGHEAVEN, YOU SUPPORT THE SPCA. > > == > World Animal Net > http://worldanimal.net > > > _________________________________________________________ > DO YOU YAHOO!? > Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com > From: IN%"reiter@Uni-Hohenheim.DE" 28-SEP-1998 03:11:22.23 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PhD position available Hallo We have a PhD position for two years with payment. This work is part of a project to reduce leg problems in broilers and turkeys. Stages in the development of the project are: 1. Influence of locomotor training on bone development and leg disorders (treadmills and CT measurements) 2. Gait-analysis in connection with development of leg disorders (videotracking on treadmill) If you are interested, contact me. Klaus Reiter Dr. K. Reiter Universitaet Hohenheim Fachgebiet Nutztierethologie und Kleintierzucht Garbenstr. 17 70593 Stuttgart Germany Tel.: 0049(0)7114593048 Fax: 0049(0)7114594246 E-mail: reiter@uni-hohenheim.de From: IN%"ALund@zi.ku.dk" "Lund, Anders (MSX)" 28-SEP-1998 03:21:05.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE-net" CC: Subj: RE: Applied ethology Dear All! I have for some time considered whether to unsubscribe the list or suggest that some restrictions should be introduced to who are members of this list. I have been a bit reluctant to do the latter, because at the onset of this list there was a discussion about the conduct and topics that could be raised on the list and at that time I was strongly advocating free speech. However, I have come to the conclusion that this is not a matter of free speech but of what kind of topics that are raised and debated on this list. I strongly support the opinion of Joe Stookey: this list should serve the ISAE members, that is, the main topics should be related to husbandry animal research. I suggest that people with interest in dog, cat or horse training, or in individual behavioural problems or disorders in these animals should open a different forum. I have no wish to offend any of these people and I have the greatest respect for their commitment to the animals they involve themselves in. However, from a situation where I used to read practically every mail that was put on this list, I now start every day with deleting practically all of it. Let's have some opinions on this Yours Sincerely, Anders Lund From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 28-SEP-1998 04:02:04.27 To: IN%"C.Dwyer@ed.sac.ac.uk" "'cathy dwyer'" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" Subj: RE: FW: Bonding and oxytocin Many thanks for this. I was trolling through some abstracts I picked off Medline last night and noted the icv route of administration. Presents slight problems! What I wonder is, whether oxytocin release is achieved in any degree by grooming or massage or squeezing. I remember a hilarious paper by Dr Jewell, a Soay sheep expert (60's vintage) who wrote a paper on inflation of the cow's vagina (by blowing through a tube) as ameans of inducing milk let-down.) Much practised in Arabia were the cry "Yah nafr al buqr" means thou blower up of cows and is not polite !! ** Robin ** True as *G* is my witness ! -----Original Message----- From: cathy dwyer [SMTP:C.Dwyer@ed.sac.ac.uk] Sent: 28 September 1998 10:15 To: Robin Walker Subject: Re: FW: Bonding and oxytocin Robin, There has been some fairly intensive investigations into the physiological basis of maternal behaviour in sheep over the last 10 years or so (principally by researchers at Cambridge and in France at INRA). The fundamental role of oxytocin in the onset phase of maternal behaviour has been well established - for example delivery of lambs by caesarian or under epidural anaesthesia abolishes maternal behaviour (particularly in maiden ewes) but this can be restored by giving oxytocin intracerebroventricularly (not iv or subcutaneously as it needs to get into the brain). Additionally maternal behaviour can be produced by artificial stimulation of the vagina and cervix either in lambed ewes or in non-pregnant ewes given oestrogen and progesterone. I suppose the later onset of maternal behaviour in the Schnautzer that you mention below might be due to increasing exposure to the pups of an animal with previously high levels of oestradiol (this works in rats and sheep over a few days) and/or to increases in central levels of oxytocin by the action of sucking by the pups? In our sheep some ewes are 'spontaneously' maternal to other lambs up to a week or so before they give birth themselves - so probably before there are significant increases in oxytocin - but these almost exclusively expereinced animals who have had at least one pregnancy before. It seems that oxytocin is really important for maiden animals but may be somewhat less so for more experienced ones - possibly as they don't have the 'fear' part to overcome having seen newborn lambs/pups etc before. Cathy > Two weeks ago I performed Caesarean section on two bitches in dystocia. > > 1. A four and a half year old maiden (first litter) Schautzer. There was > complete uterine inertia, no contractions, no foetal fluids. Three very large > foeti were removed alive. Mother awoke and appeared intensely nervous > of the puppies backing away and trembling. > > 2. A three and a half year old maiden Pembroke Corgi. There had been > slight contractions and some foetal fluid. Again three very large foeti > were removed alive. Oxytocin had been injected futilely prior to surgery > as was repeated after uterine emptying as there was some > endometrial bleeding. On awakening the bitch was immediately and > very intensely maternal toward the puppies. In subsequent days she > has been highly maternal according to the breeder. > > The Schnautzer overcame its aversion and bonded after being > restrained and subject to suckling by the pups. > > There is clear indication that oxytocin has a major role in maternal > bonding but I am intrigued about the possibillity of its use in other > species and possibly in cases of fear aversion or aggression to > conspecifics. Any thoughts on this? > > Robin Walker > > I2 have principles. If you don't like them, I have others." > Groucho Marx> _________________________________________________ Dr Cathy Dwyer, Behavioural Sciences, Animal Biology Division SAC, Bush Estate, Penicuik, EH26 0PH Scotland, UK tel. 0131-535 3228 fax. 0131-535 3121 email C.Dwyer@ed.sac.ac.uk From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 28-SEP-1998 04:34:20.40 To: IN%"ALund@zi.ku.dk" "'Lund, Anders (MSX)'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE-net" CC: Subj: RE: Applied ethology Anders, I have around 14 Megabytes of Mail from this list which I have found interesting and have kept. I started reading and keeping this material in Jan ' 95. At a time when the whole animal husbandry industry is peril from all quarters where IS the voice of the researchers who depend on it? What I see are long periods of silence, occasional requests which are answered 'off List' and rarely reported, and little open engagement in matters which should concern the farming industry. Since you invite comments I will ask if some are afraid to reveal the nature of their work? Are some individuals so desperate 'to publish' and 'not to perish' that ideas and original thoughts are hidden lest they are 'stolen'? Are some academics afraid to ask or even comment on topics for fear that they might lose some 'guru' points for not being omniscient? Are you saying that no-one writes about what they live, love and breathe because someone writes about OTHER things? Bury us with your great flow of frustrated Applied-Ethology wisdom. Start now ! I can't wait to file it! Robin -----Original Message----- From: Lund, Anders (MSX) [SMTP:ALund@zi.ku.dk] Sent: 28 September 1998 10:23 To: ISAE-net Subject: Re: Applied ethology Dear All! I have for some time considered whether to unsubscribe the list or suggest that some restrictions should be introduced to who are members of this list. I have been a bit reluctant to do the latter, because at the onset of this list there was a discussion about the conduct and topics that could be raised on the list and at that time I was strongly advocating free speech. However, I have come to the conclusion that this is not a matter of free speech but of what kind of topics that are raised and debated on this list. I strongly support the opinion of Joe Stookey: this list should serve the ISAE members, that is, the main topics should be related to husbandry animal research. I suggest that people with interest in dog, cat or horse training, or in individual behavioural problems or disorders in these animals should open a different forum. I have no wish to offend any of these people and I have the greatest respect for their commitment to the animals they involve themselves in. However, from a situation where I used to read practically every mail that was put on this list, I now start every day with deleting practically all of it. Let's have some opinions on this Yours Sincerely, Anders Lund From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 28-SEP-1998 04:59:31.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: financial cost of welfare At the moment we are being told that the high welfare standards imposed on UK agriculture are driving our farmers out of business because it is impossible to compete against overseas units where welfare standards are lower, or non-existent. Would anyone like to speculate on the actual costs of welfare-friendly systems of animal husbandry? ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"C.M.E.Ryan@exeter.ac.uk" "room 016 wsl-Animal behaviour" 28-SEP-1998 06:10:56.56 To: IN%"ALund@zi.ku.dk" "Lund, Anders (MSX)" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE-net" Subj: RE: Applied ethology On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:23:12 +0200 Lund, Anders (MSX) wrote: > From: Lund, Anders (MSX) > Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:23:12 +0200 > Subject: Re: Applied ethology > To: ISAE-net > > Dear All! > > I have for some time considered whether to unsubscribe the list or > suggest that some restrictions should be introduced to who are members > of this list. I have been a bit reluctant to do the latter, because at > the onset of this list there was a discussion about the conduct and > topics that could be raised on the list and at that time I was strongly > advocating free speech. However, I have come to the conclusion that this > is not a matter of free speech but of what kind of topics that are > raised and debated on this list. I strongly support the opinion of Joe > Stookey: this list should serve the ISAE members, that is, the main > topics should be related to husbandry animal research. I suggest that > people with interest in dog, cat or horse training, or in individual > behavioural problems or disorders in these animals should open a > different forum. I have no wish to offend any of these people and I have > the greatest respect for their commitment to the animals they involve > themselves in. However, from a situation where I used to read > practically every mail that was put on this list, I now start every day > with deleting practically all of it. > Let's have some opinions on this > > Yours Sincerely, > Anders Lund For me, one of the great strengths of this list is the variety of people who contribute to it and the broad range of topics covered. Surely this shows that 'Applied Ethology' covers a much wider subject area than perhaps originally envisaged by the ISAE. However, inevitably this means that we cannot please everyone on the list all of the time. Speaking personally, my main interests are in animal cognition and I am not too fussy as to species (most of my research has been on domestic chickens; I own two dogs; I have always been interested in horses and their behaviour). I have thus found plenty to stimulate me on this list; equally, some topics (drugs as behaviour therapies, for example) leave me cold. Anyway, it's not as though you can hijack an electronic discussion in the same way as you can a face to face one - you can have lots of parallel discussions going on at once. So come on all those ISAE-ers who feel they've been swamped - let's have some new subjects to chew over! Catriona****************** Dept. of Psychology Washington Singer Labs Room No: 016 University of Exeter Perry Road Exeter EX4 4QG, UK FAX +44 1392 264623 **************************************************************************** From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 28-SEP-1998 08:04:07.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Autocommunication Hello Jon! > Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:14:12 -0600 (CST) > From: Jon Watts > Subject: Autocommunication > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > My question is, do the vocalizations of cattle (or any other species you > may be familiar with) have any property that might be described as > autocommunicative? Does the act of vocalizing, of itself, influence the > vocalizer's subsequent behaviour. Do individuals in species which use vocal displays, monitor> the quality of their own vocalizations and use that information to modify either their subsequent vocalizations or other aspects of their behaviour? Jon, I think you're treading into introspective studies which is difficult to do with non-human animals. Some humans report that singing or whistling calms them when they are nervous, anxious, etc. > Maybe its a bit off the wall, but the idea that animals might, so to > speak, "talk to themselves" intrigued me. I wondered if there was any > evidence for it. I'd be interested to hear if anyone had any thoughts on > it. "Shaggy cattle" stories, Jon? Chickens do a lot of vocalizing that appears to reflect their reaction to things happening in their environment. However, these vocalizations appear to be directed to the group and other hens react to it as a group. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 28-SEP-1998 08:06:44.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dr. C's comment This came back! I am sending it out again - hope this isn't a repeat. Hello again Dr. Cameron! For the group, as I sent the last message and forgot to include the ISAE listserv: Re: Dr. Cameron's point on people who want see animals wild and unruly: I agreed that this was probably important as many animals end up abandoned and/or euthanized because they were raised with this philosophy and became a threat to people, other animals and themselves. More from Dr. C! > > I am certainly not active in the area of guide dog training, > but > > I find it really difficult to believe that the extreme aversive > > measures mentioned are part of the official training protocol for > > such dogs > Apparently, from the input in this discussion, this element does exist. > > ; if for no other reason than that such training would not > > be likely to produce a very useful assistance dog. > Exactly. The failure rate (after training and even after assignment) is apparently quite high. DebMcw dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 --NAA25004.906745276/wright.aps.uoguelph.ca-- dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 --RAA02001.906760115/wright.aps.uoguelph.ca-- dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 28-SEP-1998 08:16:09.72 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cows: Three Topics > Hi Robin! > > > Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:33:17 +0100 > > From: Robin Walker > > Subject: Cows: Three Topics > > To: "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" ethology@skyway.usask.ca> > > > 1. Are cattle changing in their behaviour toward humans > > (and their dogs). There have been two or three very > > nasty incidents recently in which dog owners out > > in the pastures with their pets have been injured > > or killed and their dogs killed (or escaped). Temple Grandin has done some work on behaviours in production animals that put handlers and the animals at risk. The animals she studies, however, are intensive production animals. Her basic theory has been that animals kept in production environments self- stimulate to compensate for lack of environmental complexity. The self- stimulation results in over-reactivity. > > 2. About 3 years ago I asked the List for > > information about the agility of cattle. Temple Grandin also has some info on these for cattle and swine. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 28-SEP-1998 08:28:56.57 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Killer-Cows > Dear Robin > I am intriqued about these Killer-cattle - where and when did this happen, > what breed of cattle was it, and how many dogs and old ladies did they kill? The beginnings of urban legend. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 28-SEP-1998 08:37:25.64 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Applied ethology Hello Anders! > Date sent: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:23:12 +0200 > From: "Lund, Anders (MSX)" > Subject: Re: Applied ethology > To: ISAE-net > Stookey: this list should serve the ISAE members, that is, the main > topics should be related to husbandry animal research. Could you be more specific? Many people equate ethology with behaviour and I think you need to define "husbandry animal research". Considerations: 1) It is possible to allow only ISAE members to use this listserv. Another listserv I belong to is done on an invitation basis. To be invited, you have to be a member of the organization. The prospective "listserver" applies for admittance and usually must present some credentials and/or references. 2) Does animal welfare fit into the listserv you are proposing? 3) Might not research become a closed circuit without input from the "real world" from which we find reason to do research? Is not part of research used to educate and do we educate by allowing lay people into the hallowed halls of academia? 4) What about an A and B version? A version by invitation only (access limited) and a B version where lay people are welcome? DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "Jonathan Bowen" 28-SEP-1998 10:47:14.87 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Applied ethology This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_F9CntidlYYntjHQUKeM43A) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable On AEL many interesting lines of argument never get pursued; despite the = fact that many people read the postings very few get involved in the = discussion.=20 .....Hmmmm! Often emails are posted 'thanking everyone for their help' with this or = that query, when the information has been passed 'off list'. .....Hmmmm! The only discussion that has really deserved criticism has not even been = mentioned: we had a week or two where the only topic of discussion was = the matter of file-attachments, how to create them and what goes wrong = with them. This is not ethology. ....Hmmmm! My concerns regarding modifying membership of the AEL list are: With so few people responding to this one, would there be enough support = for two? Wouldn't both wither away? If membership is selective what if the only people who are selected = happen to be the current non-contributors? Applied ethology should not become speciesist. There are other options for limiting the amount of unwanted material on = the list: ---don't reply to case queries on-list. ---if you want to see more material on a specific subject then say so. = Just post a message asking for a discussion on something. ---Use principles of associative learning to encourage more of what you = want.....give positive reinforcement to those who produce = interesting postings by responding to them! If you want a means of thinning out the list whilst at the same time = stimulating discussion then how about this one: issue one 'test question' a month and remove from the list anyone that = doesn't respond to at least two a year. Obviously you mustn't tell anyone which questions are the test ones. Or maybe leave things alone? Jon --Boundary_(ID_F9CntidlYYntjHQUKeM43A) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
On AEL many interesting lines of argument never get = pursued;=20 despite the fact that many people read the postings very few get = involved in the=20 discussion.
.....Hmmmm!
Often emails are posted 'thanking everyone for their = help'=20 with this or that query, when the information has been passed 'off=20 list'.
.....Hmmmm!
The only discussion that has really deserved = criticism has not=20 even been mentioned: we had a week or two where the only topic of = discussion was=20 the matter of file-attachments, how to create them and what goes wrong = with=20 them. This is not ethology.
....Hmmmm!
 
My concerns regarding modifying membership of the = AEL list=20 are:
 
With so few people responding to this one, would = there be=20 enough support for two? Wouldn't both wither away?
If membership is selective what if the only people = who are=20 selected happen to be the current non-contributors?
Applied ethology should not become = speciesist.
 
There are other options for limiting the amount of = unwanted=20 material on the list:
 
---don't reply to case queries on-list.
---if you want to see more material on a specific = subject then=20 say so. Just post a message asking for a discussion on = something.
---Use principles of associative learning to = encourage more of=20 what you want.....give positive reinforcement to those who=20 produce         interesting = postings by=20 responding to them!
 
 
If you want a means of thinning out the list whilst = at the=20 same time stimulating discussion then how about this one:
 
issue one 'test question' a month and remove from = the list=20 anyone that doesn't respond to at least two a year.
Obviously you mustn't tell anyone which questions = are the test=20 ones.
 
Or maybe leave things alone?
 
Jon
 
--Boundary_(ID_F9CntidlYYntjHQUKeM43A)-- From: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" 28-SEP-1998 12:00:56.69 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"ALund@zi.ku.dk" "'Lund, Anders (MSX)'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE-net" Subj: RE: Applied ethology On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Robin Walker wrote: > Anders, > > I have around 14 Megabytes of Mail from this list which I have > found interesting and have kept. I started reading and keeping this > material in Jan ' 95. Robin, You may be interested to know that the entire collection of the messages sent to Applied-ethology since 1993 (with just a few exceptions) can be located at http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/ae/archives.htm I suspect some of your musings about the farm animal ethologist are valid, but they certainly do not explain all the reasons for silence. I can think of numerous reasons that I have had over the years for not responding or engaging in open discussions on this network. Some reasons in addition to those you posted may include: 1) I do not always have the time and energy to publicly debate a topic when there is little return for my effort and a high probability of being mis-understood or 'corrected'. It is sort of like an optimum foraging strategy - what is the likely benefit from responding in relation to the cost of responding? (Keep in mind there are multiple benefits and multiple costs.) Sometimes (many times?) the benefits of NOT responding outweigh the costs of NOT responding. 2) The longer we participate on this network the more often we run across similar ideas that were already discussed. For example, though farm animal welfare is a burning issue, how many times should we discuss whether is can be adequately measured, assessed and defined? I may have already heard enough on that topic to last me a lifetime! 3) The time I spend responding to this network detracts from the time I can spend doing other tasks that I need to accomplish. Many of us see our priorities such as: the need to publish, reports and grants to write, courses to teach, families, committees, etc. to be more important than e-mail exchanges. After we expend our time and energy on our other priorities there is not enough additional time to engage in electronic exchanges. Just reading all the exchanges (including all the dog messages) requires plenty of time already. 4) Most of the ISAE members know each other quite well. We review and read each other's publications and attend the same meetings. Most of us recognize that some of the best exchanges we have with each other occur in small group discussions at meetings or on private e-mailings, and not on an open electronic forum. 5) Posting to an electronic discussion group, in a subtle way, is devoid of humility, requires some elements of brashness, boastfulness and pompous postering. I suspect many people (and myself included) prefer to maintain their humbleness (I realize you can not say that and maintain humbleness) and would not like to be thought of as brash, boastful or pompous. 6) When I find myself discouraged from reading numerous messages that do not interest me, I realize many people are probably not that interested in my remarks either (which is a humbling thought). Therefore I am often reluctant to bring up another topic which may only interest me and a few others! Well, Robin I know there are many reasons for our silence, but I also recognize that many people wonder if the amount of traffic and exchanges about dogs could be better served on a separate list server? It is not a question of whether discussions on dog behaviour are relevant to applied-ethology. The question is, if so many messages are about dogs then maybe a separate dog-behaviour discussion group should be hatched? I would say the same thing if 95 percent of the discussion were on chickens or horses or cows or pigs or zoo animals or dolphins. I believe this group has shifted the balance of interest towards dogs and I do not see any easy way to balance the topics without chopping off the over represented group. Anyone wanting to subscribe to each group could do so. Anyone thinking there may be a gem of information posted to one group and not the other can subscribe to both groups. I do not see why anyone should be offended by the suggestion. I am not trying to turn people away. I am just trying to find enough places for everyone before too many people go home! Imagine this as one big convention. We opened the doors to everyone and many more dog people showed up than were expected. Now I think the dog people need another room. I just want to stay in the original room even if it means we have a smaller more silent group of ethologists left when all the dog people re-group in their own room. I may even sneak into the canine ethologists' room once in awhile when all the applied-ethologist fall asleep. Is there anyone interested in setting up the canine-ethology discussion list? Joe ============================ Joseph M. Stookey Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology Western College of Veterinary Medicine University of Saskatchewan Saskatoon, Saskatchewan S7N 5B4 From: IN%"luisvega@arrakis.es" "Luis Vega Gordon" 28-SEP-1998 12:27:47.20 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: (sin asunto) Muchas madres de raza Rottweiler se comen a sus crias sanas,porque?. Como se puede tratar a un macho canino que tras ser castrado ,atrae a los machos. From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 28-SEP-1998 12:36:03.67 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net", IN%"C.Dwyer@ed.sac.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: RE: FW: Bonding and oxytocin >>> Robin Walker 09/28 5:52 am >>> .What I wonder is, whether oxytocin release is achieved in any degree by grooming or massage or squeezing. >>>> Oxytcoin has been called the "cuddle hormone". There has been a few studies on rats suggesting that tactile stimulation (especially of the ventral surface i.e. the tummy) causes oxytocin secretion. I am not sure if there are any direct demonstrations that grooming causes oxytocin secretion, but this is the implication. I will try to find the reference but Kerstin Uvnas-Moberg from the Karolinska Institute has been involved in some of it. We looked at cows being brushed but found no evidence of decreased residual milk which woulkd be an indirect measure of oxytocin secretion. Kerstin claims that oxytocin is an "anti-stress" hormone, and ICV injections of oxytocin reduce pain sensitivity and seem to make rats drowsy. However, I suspect this may be specific to animals like rats that are usually asleep when they are having milk ejections. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 28-SEP-1998 12:58:45.59 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE-net" Subj: RE: Applied ethology Okay, I meant to stay out of this discussion...but, as usual, my restraint has run out-- On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 joseph.stookey@skyway.usask.ca wrote: > 1) I do not always have the time and energy to publicly debate a topic > when there is little return for my effort and a high probability of being > mis-understood or 'corrected'. It is sort of like an optimum foraging > strategy - what is the likely benefit from responding in relation to the > cost of responding? (Keep in mind there are multiple benefits and > multiple costs.) Sometimes (many times?) the benefits of NOT responding > outweigh the costs of NOT responding. This is the same for every discussion list on the net, and has nothing to do with the question of whether there's too many dog posts. > 2) The longer we participate on this network the more often we run across > similar ideas that were already discussed. For example, though farm > animal welfare is a burning issue, how many times should we discuss > whether is can be adequately measured, assessed and defined? I may have > already heard enough on that topic to last me a lifetime! This is also the same for every discussion list on the net. Topics circle around and come back from time to time. However, 1. many new subscribers haven't seen the previous incarnations of each repeating topic; and 2. each time the topic comes around, it's likely that new elements will be brought into the discussion. So list members get to learn each time the subject is discussed. > 3) The time I spend responding to this network detracts from the time I > can spend doing other tasks that I need to accomplish. Yup, again this is the same for every list. And it's a big reason why lists in general tend to be dominated by a few contributors, with most subscribers lurking in the shadows. > electronic exchanges. Just reading all the exchanges (including all the > dog messages) requires plenty of time already. There's no need for you to read all the exchanges, if the subjects don't interest you. Some lists will break down their messages by topic. You can do this pretty easily by requesting that posters include the species of discussion in the message header. For instance, a subject could read: "COW: autocommunication?" or "SHREW: newsletter contents", etc. Then you can simply delete the posts you don't feel like reading. > 4) Most of the ISAE members know each other quite well. We review and > read each other's publications and attend the same meetings. Most of us > recognize that some of the best exchanges we have with each other occur in > small group discussions at meetings or on private e-mailings, and not on > an open electronic forum. This is actually a great reason to KEEP an open forum. Bring in some new blood! Stop all that intellectual inbreeding! > I believe this > group has shifted the balance of interest towards dogs and I do not see > any easy way to balance the topics without chopping off the over > represented group. If the dog folks are the ones who go to the effort to post, why punish them? An why punish the rest of us, who like to read about many different species? Why not increase the livestock discussions, instead of chopping off anything? This world needs less splitting, and more lumping. If you start splitting off more and more lists, the end result will be a lot of dead lists with NO input. It seems much easier to me (IMNSHO) to simply delete posts that you don't feel like reading. If you *do* start restricting discussion according to species, I, for one (and likely many other folks) will probably sign off. After all, I'm one of those extraneous unwanted non-livestock folks! I think splitting the list would be a big mistake, and I sincerely hope that you decide against it. Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate ================================================== I am always willing to learn, however I do not always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 28-SEP-1998 13:03:20.13 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cows: Three Topics >>> Robin Walker 09/25 5:33 pm >>> 1. Are cattle changing in their behaviour toward humans (and their dogs). ...snip...Could it be that the reduction of numbers of people living and working on the farms is reducing the habituation of cattle?>>> It could be. Injuries from animals especially cattle are consistently found in surveys to be a major cause of farm accidents. One report found that injuries from dairy cows was the most important single cause of farm injuries. Most of these are probably "accidental" rather than deliberate aggression, but I know that reports of farmers being attacked or killed by dairy animals appear quite regularly. Dairy bulls seem to be particularly aggressive. As farms get larger and larger, with more mechanization and fewer employees, it seems likely that culling for aggressive animals would be reduced, as well as the cows having less contact (especially benign contact) with people. With artificial insemination it is possible for one bull to sire a few thousand cows, so I guess it would be easy for one aggressive bull to be responsible for a lot of aggressive cows. I don't know how much bulls are selected on the basis of their level of aggressiveness or tameness, but I would suspect not ! ! much. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"rudy.demeester@ping.be" "De Meester" 28-SEP-1998 13:18:58.54 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: autocommunication Rudy De Meester dr. med. vet. sint anna 100 9220 Hamme Belgium rudy.demeester@ping.be Let's think about the vocalisation of babies, of older people of people in stress situations of psychiatric patients of old dogs in an involution depression..... any similarities ???????????? does vocalisation gives a calming effect on those individuals ? I shurely think so. What about deaf dogs that are making a lot of noises when they are afraid? Innate or selfrewarding????? Has anybody tried to prohibit the behaviour and what was the result? From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 28-SEP-1998 13:53:58.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Applied Ethology Dear All- To put my two cents into the mix: I believe the variety of subject matter on this list (including the dog and cat discussions) is its strength not its handicap, and I know I would certainly lose out if this umbrella did not include all. From discussions focusing on aggressiveness in dogs for example, my curiousity about the same issue in my own focus animal (the captive raptors) was sparked in ways that I had not considered before. I then can take some of the thinking offered here back to a list that engages solely in raptor talk and pick apart the topic in a very focused way, as well as begin to observe the raptors with newly sharpened eyes. Reading about what depression may look like in dogs teased me to review what the behavior may look like in the creatures I care for. I would have loved to hear the bored-with-dogs farm folk toss in their perspectives of signs of depression in agri-animals to help the discussion evolve in new and interesting ways. I'm sure that the topic of depression in animals is relavent to everyone on this list and I'm thankful it was brought up through the example of the guide dogs. This list has served to inspire new ideas for me, challenge others, and stay in touch with viewpoints that may be very different from my own.... all the while offering wonderful food for thought. I hope we don't throw out the baby with the bath-water here because I do believe there is MUCH to be learned from hearing the perspectives/experiences of anyone who is seriously involved in work with any of the 'non-humans'. Vive parallel discussions! Regards, Donna Reynolds From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 28-SEP-1998 14:30:40.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Cow Questions Robin- I'm glad you brought this topic up! I had a frightening experince while hiking with 3 friends and 1 dog last winter in a public park that is rented out for grazing. Scattered groups of cows gathered from neighboring hills and began to to run towards our small group. They became increasingly aggitated: yearlings butting heads and mother cows mooing excitably as they grew closer to us. I believe there were about 30 cows total. We realized things were getting a bit serious when a young bull came to the front...very near us...and turned sideways, kicking his heels up while looking us in the eye. This only excited the other cows more and they all began to crush closer to us. We turned and ran to a tree for cover and were pursued by the whole scarey, bellowing lot! They surrounded us and bellowed for a few minutes. And then, all simutaneously turned and walked away...back to their far off hillsides for more contented grazing. One of the strangest things I've ever experienced. We speculated it was the dog with us that instigated the attack (she acted more frightened than any of us!). I have heard rumours that the park district may ban the cattle grazing from the public trails areas because of other complaints of cow attacks, but have not yet had this confirmed. If you are interested, I'll make a few calls to see if this is true. (This is in the bay area of California) -Donna Reynolds From: IN%"bitterm@hotmail.com" "Bill Jones" 28-SEP-1998 15:54:05.62 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"ALund@zi.ku.dk" CC: Subj: RE: Applied ethology I suppose we are living in a real information era. We got a flood of info, good or bad, whenever you are on internet. A discussion like this one has actually been going on as a universal topic on almost every net forum that I have been on. I myself was much annoyed by all kinds of 'garbage' years ago, but have been 'trained' to get used to it. And I believe sooner or later anyone who is on the internet will be tamed or domesticated, too. Now I even support and sometimes appreciate such a internet atmosphere. Reading a variety of minds, even those most absurd ones, open your view of this world. We should let people say what they like, the choice whether to read it or not is totally yours. You cost is very minimal, unless you feel bothered (In such case, the cure is 'don't be bothered'). But you do buy a newspaper that you only read <1% of it, don't you? You do collect flyers, broaches from your home mail box, and throw them away without reading them at all, don't you? Have you complained? To whom? I took less than 1 minute to delete all the topics I am not interested in each week, the cost means nothing to me! But if someone put a restriction on the list, how many people's mouths will be shut up (Most of theses people will be our young non-member students and those who have keen interests in the list, but never want to, or can, be a professional). Watching such a gain-loss scale, are you still being bothered? I am not. Bill >Date: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 11:23:12 +0200 >From: "Lund, Anders (MSX)" >Subject: Re: Applied ethology >To: ISAE-net > >Dear All! > >I have for some time considered whether to unsubscribe the list or >suggest that some restrictions should be introduced to who are members >of this list. I have been a bit reluctant to do the latter, because at >the onset of this list there was a discussion about the conduct and >topics that could be raised on the list and at that time I was strongly >advocating free speech. However, I have come to the conclusion that this >is not a matter of free speech but of what kind of topics that are >raised and debated on this list. I strongly support the opinion of Joe >Stookey: this list should serve the ISAE members, that is, the main >topics should be related to husbandry animal research. I suggest that >people with interest in dog, cat or horse training, or in individual >behavioural problems or disorders in these animals should open a >different forum. I have no wish to offend any of these people and I have >the greatest respect for their commitment to the animals they involve >themselves in. However, from a situation where I used to read >practically every mail that was put on this list, I now start every day >with deleting practically all of it. >Let's have some opinions on this > >Yours Sincerely, >Anders Lund > ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"billcamp@cdsnet.net" 28-SEP-1998 19:15:16.56 To: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Cow Questions Donna, An altruistic question... How did the dog manage to survive the cattle charge? Bill >Robin- > >I'm glad you brought this topic up! > [snip] >and they all began to crush closer to us. > >We turned and ran to a tree for cover and were pursued by the whole >scarey, bellowing lot! They surrounded us and bellowed for a few >minutes. And then, all simutaneously turned and walked away...back to >their far off hillsides for more contented grazing. > >One of the strangest things I've ever experienced. > >We speculated it was the dog with us that instigated the attack (she >acted more frightened than any of us!). [snip] > >-Donna Reynolds > > From: IN%"eva.joris@commit.gm" "Eva Joris" 28-SEP-1998 20:38:27.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: I re-subscribed to the list. Dear all, Yes, I subscribed again, and will introduce myself. I am Eva Joris, DVM+Dip. Tropical Animal Health and Production. I worked in Kenya (Rinderpest), The Gambia (Trypanotolerant Small Ruminants). I did my Msc In Applied Animal Behaviour and Animal Welfare (Edinburgh). Left for Malawi again (State Vet. responsible for all animals great and small). Lived in Uganda and than in Belgium for a while being a mum. Here I am back in The Gambia since early July, working on Small Ruminants as a scientist :-) and being a single mum with two kids. I am supposed 'to develop low-cost interventions to alleviate disease of the small ruminants of the poorer farmer'. Applied behaviour is relevant here as low cost means trying to use all kind of genetic capacities of these animals such as tolerance or resistance to parasitic disease to reduce drug costs, and this genetic resistance has a behavioral factor. The idea is also to keep the same number of animals but increase the individual productivity (I have a colleague working on nutrition). A Nigerian colleague is actually working on draught animals (work oxen) and the effect of (chronic) stress on trypanotolerance, I will try to get him on the list as I feel he needs some advice on this stress thing. regards, Eva Joris, Small Ruminant Research Unit, International Trypanotolerance Centre, P.M.B.14, Banjul, The Gambia. e-mail: eva.joris@commit.gm From: IN%"ffab@po.anoa.or.jp" 28-SEP-1998 22:42:35.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Space and species At 20:32 98/09/28 -0400, Chris wrote: > >Thanks for your answer about the streets. > >The game of GO is also based on occupying intersecting points instead of >spaces. I wonder in what other ways the Japanese may utilize points and/or >intersections as opposed to spaces or lines. > >That is why I wondered if your martial arts master may have a different >view on the spatial attributes of the martial art. The interpretation you >responded with is one I am familiar with in its definition of spaces. But >it may not be the only way of looking at the three dimensional aspects of >the situations. I am searching for other ways that cultures or species or >activities perceive the social and personal aspects of space. I don't know if this has a lot to do with applied ethology and maybe I should (try to) talk more about killing cows (wooah that's neat, after the Mad Cow disease, Cow as serial killer ... Hmm maybe this is a propaganda from the Pork-Meat lobby ? ;-) Sorry if this thread if off topic, just said so and I will restrain myself. Hmm Chris, maybe it is because this master is not japanese but french ... and so I am. I cannot talk for what I am not, a japanese person, but I noticed few things that may interest you. I use them to point out the cultural differences when I have to explain how to manage relationship (business-like most of the time) with japanese and chinese ppl. 1/ In one hand japanese persons seems to be more rooted into "spacial community", for instance if someone spend little time oversea he/she will not be considered as "truly" japanese at return, and that will have social impact. But in other hand each individual as a strong notion of vital space/area and promiscuity is a wonderful fear here, they often consider promiscuity as "bestiality". This can be seen with very few body contact (even self contact), Handshaking is a common example but this is true that all other Asian ppl don't hesitate to touch each other or even "foreigners" as soon as they are accepted by the group (I remember have been a little surprised when some male friends in China put their arms on my shoulder, which is in France a move associated with gay relationship or at least close relationship. And when it was a female friend who did it I was really confused ;-). So to resume : in occident we have a "large" idea of nationality, even if you spend long time abroad you are still from the group and we accept quite easily that someone "interferes" with our vital area if some codes are respected (greetings, verbal or non-verbal request of acknowledgement, ...). In japan the idea of group is a little more "narrow" and even in social behavior a minimum space is required (even within the couple). 2/ Japanese writing can be in (almost) any directions : right to left, left to right, up to down or a mix of all that. First I believed it was due to the influence of chinese culture (where traditionally writing is from right to left and up to down) but after a little inquiry I realized that chinese ppl have changed their writing directions by period and within a period it was very rare to find another direction. But in Modern Japan, probably due a lot of different influences directions can be mixed (I got this morning in my mailbox a commercial with 3 directions) and I suspected that many troubles of japanese learning other languages (western language, my wife teaching french) reside in a kind of dyslexia. 3/ It is well known (at least for cross-culturalist) that Japanese way of thinking is (much) more "spacial" than "linear" (we, frenchies, often define german as having the perfect linear way of thinking ;-) and a conference given by a japanese spokesman can drive many foreign participants puzzled. But this behavior has also something to the notion of time, so maybe it would be more interesting for you to look in the space/time (thus 4 dimensions) aspects. None of the remarks above was meant to insult anyone, it was just remarks that I may have made during my time in several countries and can be perfectly seen as a view of my stupid and immature mind. If you disagree with them, you are right and I am wrong. fabien ### Life is much funny when you laugh of it ### From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 29-SEP-1998 00:34:13.93 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Applied ethology, a new list? I would like to support the arguments of Dr. Stookey and I don't understand the arguments of Dr. Ione L. Smith. Dr. Smith, if you are an "unwanted non-livestock folk", why don't you open a list for people like you. We farm animal scientists will visit your list when we are running out of ideas. Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"Patrick.Zimmerman@ETHO.VH.WAU.NL" 29-SEP-1998 01:05:56.27 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Autocommunication Hi there, Here in Wageningen we study laying-hen vocalisations in relation to frustration/welfare. It seems that laying-hens have a particular vocalisation, the gakel-call (which sounds very similar to their pre-laying call), which is given when they are thwarted in their behaviour. All our tests were on individual hens, isolated from their conspecifics and we found that in different contexts of frustration (food, water, dustbath, nestsite) there was a increase in the number of these gakel-calls. It has been described that under natural circumstances the pre-laying call is given as a signal to the cock to escort her, away from the flock, to a suitable nest-site. This situation might be accompanied by an emotional state we could label =BFfrustration=C0; the hen has to leave the group *and* has to try to find a proper site to deposit her egg. . Under the artificial circumstances we have brought the hen in, this gakel-call then might be an expression of this state of =BFfrustration=C0. I cannot see how such a signal, or a distress-call, could have evolved as a vocalisation to calm an animal down. What use is it to =BFsay=C0 to yourself: =C1I=C0m hungry=C2 or =C1I=C0m being frustrated=C2 when you are hungry or frustrated? What survival value would that have? Unless it triggers of a proper behavioural reaction? I know, people scream or swear, even when they=C0re alone or maybe especially when they=C0re alone, when they bump into a tree but, in my opinion, this is intended to be directed towards an imaginary other person. And people use songs or other vocalisations or whistle to calm themselves down, or get happy, but only because they believe it works! Personally, hearing someone whistle/sing some self-composed tune can sometimes make me very unhappy! Best wishes, Patrick Zimmerman, PhD-student Ethology Group Wageningen Agricultural University P.O. Box 238, 6700 AH Wageningen, The Netherlands E-mail: patrick.zimmerman@etho.vh.wau.nl From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol" 29-SEP-1998 01:17:01.66 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" "'joseph.stookey@skyway.usask.ca'", IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" CC: IN%"STOOKEY@sask.usask.ca", IN%"ALund@zi.ku.dk" "'Lund, Anders (MSX)'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE-net" Subj: RE: Applied ethology Joe Hear, hear. You've summed it up beautifully for me - many thanks. Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: joseph.stookey@skyway.usask.ca [SMTP:joseph.stookey@skyway.usask.ca] > Sent: Tuesday, 29 September 1998 4:01 > To: Robin Walker > Cc: STOOKEY@skyway.usask.ca; 'Lund, Anders (MSX)'; ISAE-net > Subject: RE: Applied ethology > > > On Mon, 28 Sep 1998, Robin Walker wrote: > > > Anders, > > > > I have around 14 Megabytes of Mail from this list which I have > > found interesting and have kept. I started reading and keeping this > > material in Jan ' 95. > > Robin, > > You may be interested to know that the entire collection of the messages > sent to Applied-ethology since 1993 (with just a few exceptions) can be > located at http://www.usask.ca/wcvm/ae/archives.htm > > I suspect some of your musings about the farm animal ethologist are valid, > but they certainly do not explain all the reasons for silence. I can think > of numerous reasons that I have had over the years for not responding or > engaging in open discussions on this network. Some reasons in addition to > those you posted may include: > > 1) I do not always have the time and energy to publicly debate a topic > when there is little return for my effort and a high probability of being > mis-understood or 'corrected'. It is sort of like an optimum foraging > strategy - what is the likely benefit from responding in relation to the > cost of responding? (Keep in mind there are multiple benefits and > multiple costs.) Sometimes (many times?) the benefits of NOT responding > outweigh the costs of NOT responding. > > 2) The longer we participate on this network the more often we run across > similar ideas that were already discussed. For example, though farm > animal welfare is a burning issue, how many times should we discuss > whether is can be adequately measured, assessed and defined? I may have > already heard enough on that topic to last me a lifetime! > > 3) The time I spend responding to this network detracts from the time I > can spend doing other tasks that I need to accomplish. Many of us see > our priorities such as: the need to publish, reports and grants to write, > courses to teach, families, committees, etc. to be more important than > e-mail exchanges. After we expend our time and energy on our other > priorities there is not enough additional time to engage in > electronic exchanges. Just reading all the exchanges (including all the > dog messages) requires plenty of time already. > > 4) Most of the ISAE members know each other quite well. We review and > read each other's publications and attend the same meetings. Most of us > recognize that some of the best exchanges we have with each other occur in > small group discussions at meetings or on private e-mailings, and not on > an open electronic forum. > > 5) Posting to an electronic discussion group, in a subtle way, is devoid > of humility, requires some elements of brashness, boastfulness and pompous > postering. I suspect many people (and myself included) prefer to maintain > their humbleness (I realize you can not say that and maintain humbleness) > and would not like to be thought of as brash, boastful or pompous. > > 6) When I find myself discouraged from reading numerous messages that do > not interest me, I realize many people are probably not that interested in > my remarks either (which is a humbling thought). Therefore I am often > reluctant to bring up another topic which may only interest me and a few > others! > > Well, Robin I know there are many reasons for our silence, but I also > recognize that many people wonder if the amount of traffic and exchanges > about dogs could be better served on a separate list server? It is not a > question of whether discussions on dog behaviour are relevant to > applied-ethology. The question is, if so many messages are about dogs then > maybe a separate dog-behaviour discussion group should be hatched? I > would say the same thing if 95 percent of the discussion were on chickens > or horses or cows or pigs or zoo animals or dolphins. I believe this > group has shifted the balance of interest towards dogs and I do not see > any easy way to balance the topics without chopping off the over > represented group. Anyone wanting to subscribe to each group could do so. > > Anyone thinking there may be a gem of information posted to one group and > not the other can subscribe to both groups. I do not see why anyone > should be offended by the suggestion. I am not trying to turn people away. > I am just trying to find enough places for everyone before too many people > go home! Imagine this as one big convention. We opened the doors to > everyone and many more dog people showed up than were expected. Now I > think the dog people need another room. I just want to stay in the > original room even if it means we have a smaller more silent group of > ethologists left when all the dog people re-group in their own room. I > may even sneak into the canine ethologists' room once in awhile when all > the applied-ethologist fall asleep. > > Is there anyone interested in setting up the canine-ethology discussion > list? > > Joe > > ============================ > Joseph M. Stookey > Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology > Western College of Veterinary Medicine > University of Saskatchewan > Saskatoon, Saskatchewan > S7N 5B4 From: IN%"bjorn.forkman@zoologi.su.se" "forkman" 29-SEP-1998 01:55:00.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Oxytocin Dear all, I seem to remember (though I'm sure there are others with other = memories...; -)) that oxytocin is involved in a series of behaviours and = species. Sexual and grooming behaviour (in rats (of course!)):=20 Stoneham et al. (1985). Oxytocin and sexual behaviour in the male rat = and rabbit. J Endocrin 107: 97-106 Arletti et al. (1985). Oxytocin improves male copulatory performance in = rats. Hormones and Behaviour 19: 14-20 Oxytocin release is also supposed to be stimulated by "cuddling" in dogs = (beagles I think) and humans. >Oxytcoin has been called the "cuddle hormone". There has been a few = studies on rats suggesting that tactile stimulation (especially of the = ventral surface i.e. the tummy) causes oxytocin secretion. I am not sure = if there are any direct demonstrations that grooming causes oxytocin = secretion, but this is the implication. I will try to find the reference = but Kerstin Uvnas-Moberg from the Karolinska Institute has been involved = in some of it. We looked at cows being brushed but found no evidence of = decreased residual milk which woulkd be an indirect measure of oxytocin = secretion. Kerstin claims that oxytocin is an "anti-stress" hormone, and = ICV injections of oxytocin reduce pain sensitivity and seem to make rats = drowsy. However, I suspect this may be specific to animals like rats = that are usually asleep when they are having milk ejections. >Jeff Rushen Bj=F6rn *************************************************** Bj=F6rn Forkman Dep of Zoology, University of Stockholm 106 91 Stockholm, Sweden +46 (0)8 164048 From: IN%"bjarne.braastad@nlh10.nlh.no" "Bjarne O. Braastad" 29-SEP-1998 02:22:27.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Applied ethology Dear colleagues, There has been several opinions about the future of the Applied Ethology list, and I understand and partly agree with all of them. We must not forget that ISAE is dealing with applied ethology, not only farm animal ethology, but also the ethology and welfare of pet, zoo, and lab animals. Quantitatively, the main focus should be on farm species, as this is what the large majority of ISAE members are working on. The list issue has been discussed several times in ISAE Council, and it is my impression that the Council follows the development of the Applied Ethology list carefully. It is quite important that as many ISAE members as possible stay on this list, so that ISAE information can be given through this list and not always need to wait for the next ISAE Newsletter. When posting important questions and opinions which members feel should be discussed within ISAE, it is also important to know that this reach most of the members. An alternative would be to establish a separate membership list for ISAE, with information from ISAE officers and congress organizers and discussion restricted to ISAE business. I think the danger in this kind of development is that too many ISAE members would drop the Applied Ethology list. Instead, I believe that the listowner (Joe Stookey) frequently should stress some general principles for the discussion, e.g. 1. that people should consider carefully whether, and to what address, they should post comments. General comments, like "That was a good point", "Hallelujah", "Me too" etc. should be sent only to the person in question, while comments sent to Applied Ethology should always have a general interest and include specific information or new ideas or new viewpoints. 2. Postings of a particular case of behaviour should only be submitted when it might be relevant for a general discussion of principles or theories of applied ethology. 3. All contributors should try to express their points without too many words. 4. The Subject line should always give a clear idea about the topic, preferably including the species as has been suggested previously unless the topic is interesting across species, to make it easier to use the delete button. 5. The Applied Ethology list might be an exclusive list only for ISAE members, perhaps stimulating more persons to join as a member. I don't have a strong opinion about this, however. Bjarne O. Braastad ********************************************************** Bjarne O. Braastad (Dr.Philos.) Associate Professor of Ethology Dept. of Animal Science, Agricultural University of Norway, P.O. Box 5025, N-1432 Aas, Norway e-mail: bjarne.braastad@ihf.nlh.no fax: +47 64 94 79 60 phone: +47 64 94 79 80 http://www.nlh.no/Institutt/IHF/presside/Braastad.htm ********************************************************** From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 29-SEP-1998 02:48:55.17 To: IN%"Patrick.Zimmerman@ETHO.VH.WAU.NL" "'Patrick.Zimmerman@ETHO.VH.WAU.NL'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Alarm Call .RE: Autocomm Patrick, I think there is growing neurophysiological consensus that = frustration is an emotion that is served by the neurocircuitry of aversion, disgust , = disappointment etc. To restore the homeostasis of comfort or resting contentment or = achieve the reward that the inbuilt motivation compels a certain behaviour must be = accomplished. If it cannot be accomplished it may be just a compelling to achieve = homeostasis by doing something else. The 'something else' will tend to be a variant 'of singing, dancing = or eating' You know! The sort of activities for which humans buy tickets! =20 The specific brain is organised for species typical activities. = Chewing, grazing, rooting running, and singing tend to monopolise to abrogate large amounts = of brain capacity and neurendocrine potential.=20 I do not think it in the least surprising that the bird opts to = sing or vocalise as means generating counterbalancing contentment or relief. The metabolism = of the bird would appear to be locked into tightly organised budgets for food vs. = flight. Singing is their supreme option.=20 You say:-=20 >I cannot see how such a signal, or a distress-call, could have = evolved as a vocalisation to=20 >calm an animal down . What use is it to =BFsay=C0 to yourself: = =C1I=C0m hungry=C2 or =C1I=C0m being=20 >frustrated=C2 when you are hungry or frustrated? What survival = value would that have? Unless > it triggers of a proper behavioural reaction, This is the most pivotal issue since Galileo! If animal husbandry scientists do not engage in it, they will not = survive and neither will the industry which supports them [Vegetables are for me what alcohol and dougnuts are to the = Inuit.] Robin ----Original Message----- From: Patrick.Zimmerman@ETHO.VH.WAU.NL = [SMTP:Patrick.Zimmerman@ETHO.VH.WAU.NL] Sent: 28 September 1998 19:09 To: applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Re: Autocommunication Hi there, Here in Wageningen we study laying-hen vocalisations in relation to = frustration/welfare. It seems that laying-hens have a particular = vocalisation, the gakel-call (which sounds very similar to their = pre-laying call), which is given when they are thwarted in their = behaviour. All our tests were on individual hens, isolated from their = conspecifics and we found that in different contexts of frustration = (food, water, dustbath, nestsite) there was a increase in the number of = these gakel-calls. It has been described that under natural circumstances the pre-laying = call is given as a signal to the cock to escort her, away from the = flock, to a suitable nest-site. This situation might be accompanied by = an emotional state we could label =BFfrustration=C0; the hen has to = leave the group *and* has to try to find a proper site to deposit her = egg. . Under the artificial circumstances we have brought the hen in, = this gakel-call then might be an expression of this state of = =BFfrustration=C0. ? I cannot see how such a signal, or a distress-call, could have = evolved as a vocalisation to calm an animal down . =20 What use is it to =BFsay=C0 to yourself: =C1I=C0m hungry=C2 or =C1I=C0m = being frustrated=C2 when you are hungry or frustrated? What survival = value would that have? Unless it triggers of a proper behavioural = reaction =20 =20 I know, people scream or swear, even when they=C0re alone or maybe = especially when they=C0re alone, when they bump into a tree but, in my = opinion, this is intended to be directed towards an imaginary other = person. And people use songs or other vocalisations or whistle to calm = themselves down, or get happy, but only because they believe it works! = Personally, hearing someone whistle/sing some self-composed tune can = sometimes make me very unhappy! Best wishes, Patrick Zimmerman, PhD-student Ethology Group Wageningen Agricultural University P.O. Box 238, 6700 AH Wageningen, The Netherlands E-mail: patrick.zimmerman@etho.vh.wau.nl From: IN%"Anna.Olsson@hmh.slu.se" "Anna Olsson" 29-SEP-1998 03:36:23.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Applied ethology - a vote for broadmindedness! Dear all, I know it is hard to admit, but don't we just feel hurt that our cow and pig and poultry (etc whatever more animals are farmed but not trained) questions won't lead to such enthusiastic discussions as do dog training and dog therapy questions? The ones to blame for this are all us colleagues out there who say nothing, then. Maybe due to the reasons listed by Joe Stookey. If he is right, and if this holds mainly for farm animal ethologists, then excluding pet issues from the list will basically extinct the discussion... What we get is what we make; the appearance of the list is in the hands of the subscribers. In fact the attempt to raise a different discussion point (autocommunication) was quite successful, proving that this list can nourish parallel discussions, providing that the people concerned do participate and do not only read (or delete). My personal view of the list is that it is not only for discussions but also for questions, announcements etc. If I want to send out a cry for help with information, I prefer to do that on a list with a rather broad audience, rather than one with only the ISAE members which already know each other.=20 In summary, my vote for no split! ----------------------------------------------------- Anna Olsson doktorand Inst f=F6r husdjurens milj=F6 och h=E4lsa Sveriges Lantbruksuniversitet Box 234 532 23 Skara Dept of Animal Environment and Health Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences P O Box 234 S-532 23 Skara Sweden tel 46 (0)511 - 67245 (direct), 67218 (secretary) fax 46 (0)511 - 67204 e-mail anna.olsson@hmh.slu.se From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 29-SEP-1998 04:54:39.28 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cow questions It is fascinating! Obviously nowbody reads Konrad Lorenz and nowbody knows the ethogram of cattle. At least not the readers of this forum. I don't think that the behaviour of cows changed in the last 20 years while it did hardly change during the last 1000 years. The accidents mentioned here have already been described (and explained!) by Konrad Lorenz - I think in 1973 in his book "So kam der Mensch auf den Hund". The English title is "Man meets dog" (Kodansha Publisher). But perhaps I am wrong with this reference. I will try to find the right place for tomorrow. Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"ivoryhaven@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 29-SEP-1998 05:44:22.92 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cow Questions & attacks Many species of animals tend to look at the territory they are occupying as their space..Inlcuding humans...I live in Michigan where there are many dairy farms and it is commonly accepted that we should stay away from herds of cattle especially when there is a bull present. Many farmers are attacked without advanced warning (or at least without the farmer having noticed the signs insome cases because he was concentrating on something else...) Also some herd are raised with more hands on experience snd some are more automated or hands off thus they are not accustomed to a lot of interaction with humans..add that the the territorial protective posture and you will get a cow attack or at least a lot of curious cows coming over to see what you are doing which gets the youngs onces excited which may seem like an attack to someone who is not use to cattle Also as has been touched on..dogs are involved. Usually good cattle dogs. Herd dogs. Itis there job to protect that herd. It is there job to warn off the intruders, first by posturing and then barking or growling and then moving in...Cattle dogs are usually very attached to the animals they care for...thus very protective....Also the dogs and their charges have been raised together there is a certain amount of "follow the leader" that will happen in a new situation...I am not suggesting that the dog has become the leader of the herd of cattle (anyone to speculate?)...just that they all are reacting together.... Also I think that conversations on all species are interesting, variety makes the list more interesting however...I also think that sometimes there is something to be learned from one species by thinking about the reactions of another even though they may be different....It also leads to more discussions... Just another lurker, most of the time...Trying to learn about research and the studies you all do...from someone who merely works with animals...some of the very intelligent ones... Regards, Sheree Walters <") ,-''/^ ^`\ ~,~~''``^-.. (.) , ) \ `\ (`) . o ) ) )\ (`\/ (' / .) \ `-//..^ \__/ ( ) \ // \ ( ,) /\ / `/( /^~~--~~~^`( ) '| / | ( .) ( / ( .) /-.\ /-.| /-.| /-.| (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) Ivory Haven - Laura the Elephant's House on the Web: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248 http://www.newaygo.com/MI-Living ICQ WorldWide Pager for Sheree at: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2602279 http://www.Tel3.com/0194166 Get a Free Phone Card, help support Laura..MLM/Op From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 29-SEP-1998 06:11:06.93 To: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "'HANS HAUSSMANN'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cow questions Thank you! Thank you! Hans. Of course! How silly of us to forget "So kam der Mensch auf den Hund" in 1973. We are SO sorry. =20 Forget all questions. Close the list completely. We have all = simply forgotten the answers. Goodbye! Basil Fawlty (But perhaps it is another reference altogether.) =20 -----Original Message----- From: HANS HAUSSMANN [SMTP:haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de] Sent: 29 September 1998 13:55 To: Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca Subject: Cow questions It is fascinating! Obviously nowbody reads Konrad Lorenz and nowbody = knows the ethogram of cattle. At least not the readers of this forum. I don't think that the behaviour of cows changed in the last 20 years = while it did hardly change during the last 1000 years. The accidents mentioned here have already been described (and explained!) by Konrad Lorenz - I = think in 1973 in his book "So kam der Mensch auf den Hund". The English title = is "Man meets dog" (Kodansha Publisher). But perhaps I am wrong with this reference. I will try to find the right place for tomorrow. Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--=AC_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal = Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) =AC =AC ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 = Stuttgart From: IN%"jcox@netcomuk.co.uk" "jcox" 29-SEP-1998 06:25:39.41 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ISAE lists In addition to being an ISAE member, I am the moderator of the e-mail lists for World Animal Net (see http://www.worldanimal.net). I was interested to see the comments from Joe Stookey and Anders Lund, whose views I shared. I watched subsequent debate and felt that I should contribute now in support of their views. WAN has one general e-mail list and three subject specific lists (cosmetic testing, battery hens and fur). The general e-mail list is restricted to WAN announcements and general issues of international importance and/or resources of use to animal protection organisations. The three subject-specific lists cover narrow subject areas and are also only for information of wide relevance/importance or resources. We also moderate pretty strictly! We adopted this policy after watching the way the many other e-mail lists went. There are an increasing number of e-mail lists, and an increasing amount of information (and garbage!) is being circulated in this way. Most of us are far too busy to spend hours wading through masses of information from a number of e-mail lists just to delete most messages (although some academics appear not to be… oops, forgive!). For ISAE, why not have two e-mail lists for now? An extra one could easily be created for companion animals? This means recipients can be selective if they choose (and, for example, farm animal people can avoid masses of messages on companion animals). Those who wished could, of course, subscribe to both. So everyone wins. ISAE has the e-mail list system already, and it would be a shame not to use it for the benefit of companion animal behaviour as well as farm animal behaviour? You may even wish to consider more lists in the future to improve targeting (e.g. general ISAE membership plus certain subject lists). I would also suggest some more ground rules – clearly set out for all subscribers. For example, the scope of messages to be included, what messages should not be included, when messages should be sent just to the individual concerned rather than the whole list, whether attachments should be sent round, length and format of messages, and – please! – a reminder of basic list protocol like how to unsubscribe (without boring the entire list!). I would also recommend strict moderation – send back messages that don't conform to protocol. This discussion, for example, could have been curtailed at the beginning with a message from ISAE saying they would look into this and any comments direct to your e-mail address please. Similar for the exchanges on attachments/viruses etc. This is list administration rather than ethology. Some thoughts which I hope are constructive. With Kind Regards, Janice Cox PS. Since writing this message I've seen the contribution from Bjarne O. Braastad, and apologise for any duplication. From: IN%"ilsmith@utkux.utcc.utk.edu" "Ione Smith" 29-SEP-1998 06:59:33.76 To: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Applied ethology, a new list? On Tue, 29 Sep 1998, HANS HAUSSMANN wrote: > Dr. Smith, if you are an "unwanted non-livestock folk", why don't you open a > list for people like you. We farm animal scientists will visit your list > when we are running out of ideas. Do you really believe that "applied ethology" only applies to livestock species? Ione -- Ione L. Smith, DVM -- Department of Comparative Medicine -- -- University of Tennessee, College of Veterinary Medicine -- ================================================== http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/SVME.html The Society for Veterinary Medical Ethics http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/ethics.html for all sides of the AR/AW/anti-AR debate http://funnelweb.utcc.utk.edu/~ilsmith/stereo.html the stereotypical behaviors database ================================================== I am always willing to learn, however I do not always like to be taught. -- Winston Churchill From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 29-SEP-1998 07:29:55.05 To: IN%"joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE-net" Subj: RE: Applied ethology In a message dated 9/28/98 4:41:30 PM Central Daylight Time, joseph.stookey@skyway.usask.ca writes: << Most of the ISAE members know each other quite well. We review and read each other's publications and attend the same meetings. Most of us recognize that some of the best exchanges we have with each other occur in small group discussions at meetings or on private e-mailings, and not on an open electronic forum. >> Certainly many interesting discussions take place in more intimate settings than an electronic forum, however there are some people who are not present at these discussions and might benefit from that information. That is what I see an electronic forum for-to disseminate information. If topics are discussed that have been mentioned before, keep in mind that there are always new members who may contribute new ideas. Certainly none of us know all there is to know on any topic, the one we are interested in and others as well. This list can generate many good ideas. I believe listing the species and some topic idea in the subject will help others decide if they wish to read the message. I would hate to see this forum disbanded because one group was a bit too "chatty". I suggest that others jump in and offer some other topics for discussion. Although my primary interest is in "small animal behavior," I find the ideas from other species often informative and thought provoking. Debra Horwitz DVM, DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations St. Louis, Missouri From: IN%"maina@AESOP.RUTGERS.EDU" 29-SEP-1998 07:42:48.19 To: IN%"Bjorn.Forkman@zoologi.su.se" "forkman" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Oxytocin For all who may be interested, Oxytocin, the "cuddle chemical", the "love hormone", etc. can be best summed up (in my opinion) as the "inter-personal(or animal)" peptide. Almost all social and sexual interactions that can occur between or among individuals are somehow affected by oxytocin. It is interesting to note that this little peptide is highly conserved, in evolutionary terms. For a good review of the work that has been done on oxytocin, check out the New York Academy of Sciences Annals # 807(The Neurobiology of Affiliation) and # 652 (Oxytocin in Maternal and Sexual Behaviors). Both books were written in this decade, and provide the latest research on how oxytocin is involved in all sorts of behavioral and physiological paradigms, and how these actions relate to sexual, social, and maternal behavior. In recent years, more attention has been given to those hypotheses and thoughts on how all of oxytocin's actions on behavior, motivation, smooth muscle contraction, regulation of reproductive and digestive hormones, metabolic processes, etc., relate to provide answers to the questions that require a "whole picture" approach to research. This research has also been used clinically to tackle such issues as post-traumatic stress disorder, autism, schizophrenia, and aggression in children and adults. Traditionally, oxytocin was limited in the human forum to lactation and parturition. Now, clinical researchers and others have looked into the central nervous system effects, focusing on how oxytocin may be involved in ameliorating social behavior types of disorders. All in all, the oxytocin "story" gives us some insight into why we (including animals) do crazy things... for companionship?...for love? :) Daniela Maina Work: 732-932-7426 Dept. of Animal Sciences Rutgers, SUNJ New Brunswick, NJ 08901 Fax: 732-932-6996 maina@aesop.rutgers.edu From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 29-SEP-1998 07:47:04.51 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Jon's ideas Hello Jon! > Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 14:14:12 -0600 (CST) > From: Jon Watts > Subject: Autocommunication > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > My question is, do the vocalizations of cattle (or any other species you > may be familiar with) have any property that might be described as > autocommunicative? Does the act of vocalizing, of itself, influence the > vocalizer's subsequent behaviour. Do individuals in species which use vocal displays, monitor> the quality of their own vocalizations and use that information to modify either their subsequent vocalizations or other aspects of their behaviour? Jon, I think you're treading into introspective studies which is difficult to do with non-human animals. Some humans report that singing or whistling calms them when they are nervous, anxious, etc. > Maybe its a bit off the wall, but the idea that animals might, so to > speak, "talk to themselves" intrigued me. I wondered if there was any > evidence for it. I'd be interested to hear if anyone had any thoughts on > it. "Shaggy cattle" stories, Jon? Chickens do a lot of vocalizing that appears to reflect their reaction to things happening in their environment. However, these vocalizations appear to be directed to the group and other hens react to it as a group. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 29-SEP-1998 07:50:28.67 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: aggressive cattle I hope I am not sending out duplicates to everyone - I have had a few messages come back that delivery was unsuccessful. I am sending them again. DebMcW Hi Robin! > > > Date sent: Fri, 25 Sep 1998 22:33:17 +0100 > > From: Robin Walker > > Subject: Cows: Three Topics > > To: "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" ethology@skyway.usask.ca> > > > 1. Are cattle changing in their behaviour toward humans > > (and their dogs). There have been two or three very > > nasty incidents recently in which dog owners out > > in the pastures with their pets have been injured > > or killed and their dogs killed (or escaped). Temple Grandin has done some work on behaviours in production animals that put handlers and the animals at risk. The animals she studies, however, are intensive production animals. Her basic theory has been that animals kept in production environments self- stimulate to compensate for lack of environmental complexity. The self- stimulation results in over-reactivity. > > 2. About 3 years ago I asked the List for > > information about the agility of cattle. Temple Grandin also has some info on these for cattle and swine. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 29-SEP-1998 07:59:52.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Applied ethology Hello Joseph! > Date sent: Mon, 28 Sep 1998 12:00:36 -0600 (CST) > From: joseph.stookey@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: RE: Applied ethology > To: Robin Walker > Copies to: STOOKEY@skyway.usask.ca, "'Lund, Anders (MSX)'" , > ISAE-net > > 5) Posting to an electronic discussion group, in a subtle way, is devoid > of humility, requires some elements of brashness, boastfulness and pompous > postering. I suspect many people (and myself included) prefer to maintain > their humbleness (I realize you can not say that and maintain humbleness) > and would not like to be thought of as brash, boastful or pompous. But people who present to conferences, publish in journals and other publications are being humble? Your concepts only apply to electronic discussion groups? You may want to rethink these ideas. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"farp@cpgp.ufpa.br" "Fernando Augusto R. Pontes" 29-SEP-1998 08:33:44.45 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ritualization =09Hi all! =09I'm Fernando Pontes, a professor at the Federal University of Par=E1-Brasil, and I have been involved in research on patterns of child interactions, and I'm currenty interested in determining the principle mediating processes in childrens interrelationships. From my review of the literature it appears that after the 1970s very few artcles concerning ritualization during ontogenesis have appeared. Could my impression be mistaken? Could it be that this concept has in fact become obsolete, or not considered useful? =09In the same vein I would like to know what has become of the concept termed " motivation conflict". =09I would sincerely appreciete receiveng any information concerning the above question. In addition, I would like to know is there is any discussion list specific to human ethology. At the same time I am tryning to locate the e-mail address of prof. Eibl-Eibesfeldt. =09Looking forward to your responses to my inquiries, I remaim. =09Respectfully yours.=20 From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 29-SEP-1998 08:49:26.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "ISAE-net" CC: Subj: RE: Applied ethology Because of electronic difficulties (posts from applied ethology list were too lengthy!) I have been prevented from responding to several discussions recently. Consequently, I read the posts re: depression in dogs in digest form. I would like to offer the following perspective to address the whining I encountered since the postings regarding this topic. In the article What do wolves mean? Conflicting social constructions of Canis lupus in "Bordertown" ((Human Dimensions of Wildlife, 3(3), 26-45)), author Rik Scarce presents an elegant description of ethnographic methodology. Unlike traditional interview models that focus on uniform, fixed questions for all respondents and quantitative analysis, contemporary ethnography creates a multilayered, qualitative analysis drawn from a variety of (human) respondents. Interviews are more like conversations, and "...most ethnographers see their fellow participants [the interviewee's] in the conversation as the experts." (p. 31). For the information of those folks who chose frequent exercise of the delete command, I would like to point out that the depressive canine discussion was about APPLICATION of dog behavior OBSERVATIONS to the training and maintenance of service dogs (SDs)--a hot topic when you realize that SDs can fetch (sorry!) as much as $10,000 and there is as yet no regulation--that's NO REGULATION--or national standards in the United States for these animals. The exchange involved at least one academic, one SD user, and several dog trainers. In policy land parlance, these folks are stakeholders; and they deserve to be heard. According to Scarce (above), there is much to be learned from these experts. On the topic of jurying the Applied Ethology List??? I would consider the scope of the list diminished by such a measure. Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick, BA, BA, MS (Animals and Public Policy) "With a baccalaureate in psychology, I still find people the most variable and entertaining animal around!" From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 29-SEP-1998 08:52:20.94 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: changes My preference (comments) re: this list: 1) I usually delete any message with a title that I am not interested in. Most messages are titled appropriately. 2) Please note: before the dog discussion, we had an extended period of no postings. In fact, one individual posted a message asking if something was wrong with their link as they had not received any messages in about a week. The fox has been in the henhouse!!!! 3) I not only think that variety is the spice of life, I think we could gain if we had some producers join the list. For example, we have had complaints from producers that research does not meet their needs. I think it would be informative to hear from producers "their side" of the research question. DebMcW dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams Room 043, Animal and Poultry Science University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"Nora_Lewis@Umanitoba.ca" 29-SEP-1998 11:23:52.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: autocommunication I have always thought, possibly eroneously, that vocalization started as a response to an emotion which the animal was feeling. Much the same way that I might swear when I hit my finger with a hammer. Over time and because animals lived in groups his became communication in the sense that other animals used these expressions of emotion as information. It would then be much later in evolution that animals might learn to specifically vocalize to communicate intentionally the emotions it was feeling in order to get help etc. We then go one step further and hypothesize the animal which, feeling no emotion nevertheless makes the vocalizations in order to induce the other animal to help (i.e. cheaters or liers). Am I off base here? If not the original intention of the vocalizations as expressions of emotion might be to make the animal feel better in the same way as swearing makes my finger feel a whole lot better. Nora From: IN%"arl3342@montana.com" "peggy shunick" 29-SEP-1998 12:16:44.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cows: Three Topics >> > 1. Are cattle changing in their behaviour toward humans >> > (and their dogs). There have been two or three very >> > nasty incidents recently in which dog owners out >> > in the pastures with their pets have been injured >> > or killed and their dogs killed (or escaped). I would like to consider an alternative hypothesis (Sit, STAY, you little trouble maker) to that of cattle having changed their behavior toward humans and cows as a result of 1) more people's living in urban areas, thus not letting the cattle habituate to their presence OR 2) cattle being inadvertantly selected (because of intensive farming) for aggressive behavior. I suggest that it is the selection of dogs for docile temperaments coupled with people's lack of exposure to cattle behavior that places perambulating human-dog groups at greater risk to death and injury at the hooves of current day bovines. It is my experience that any cattle dog worth its biscuits (i.e., isn't culled immediately) can turn a cow, bull, calf--whatever--that is bearing down on its owner. No stockgrower would tolerate a dog that ran away (or worse stood behind the rancher) when the chips were down. Dogs traditionally accompany ranchers for the peoples' protection as well as for getting a job done quickly and efficiently. Is it no longer cost efficient to expend time, money, and energy on good stockdogs? I haven't been chased by a cow since my older cousins put a cob of corn in my hand and dropped me in a pasture to 'bring the cows in.' I must have been about five years old. With apologies for digressing (AGAIN!) to canines, Margaret A. (Peggy) Shunick, BA, BA, MS (Animals and Public Policy) and Tyler, Border Collie Expert From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 29-SEP-1998 13:59:22.94 To: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cow questions >>> HANS HAUSSMANN 09/29 8:55 am >>> It is fascinating! Obviously nowbody reads Konrad Lorenz and nowbody knows the ethogram of cattle. At least not the readers of this forum.>>> Since most of Konrad Lorenz's ideas have been discredited, it is not surprising that not many people read him anymore. What specific suggestions are you referring to? >>>I don't think that the behaviour of cows changed in the last 20 years while it did hardly change during the last 1000 years. >>> Given the extremely intense selection that has occurred in the recent years for dairy cattle, and the great reduction in the size of the breeding population of bulls due to AI, I would be very surprised if there haven't been some quantitative changes in behaviour of cattle, even if it is only due to genetic drift. Jeff Rushen From: IN%"safire@interpath.com" "Trish" 29-SEP-1998 16:57:04.79 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introduction Greetings all, Since I'm new to the list I thought I'd introduce myself. I am Patricia Sizelove, Trish for short please. While I hold no doctorate or even an associates my reason for adding myself to this list was for the sake exposing myself to a broad scope of views and opinions on the subject of animal behavior. Most of the jargon used by other members of the list has over my head but I've been muddling through well enough, when necessary I've pulled out the dictionary or encyclopedia, as the case maybe. Nonetheless, my fascination is in working with dogs. My interest peaked while I was dating my husband whose mother runs the Iditarod. Now that we have moved to the "States" it is my goal to begin my education (as in Alaska, with my interests the options were few). Would anyone care to comment on the Animal Behavior Center of New York, New York City? Please feel free to reply directly to me rather than on the list if you would like too. I've found that in the last few days I've learned an immense amount on the subject of animal behavior, regardless of whether or not the topic is cows or dogs or pigs or what have you. I want to take a moment to thank each and every one of you. What a pleasure it is to be exposed to so many incredibly intelligent and diverse minds! Trish Sizelove safire@interpath.com From: IN%"karend@ssc.net.au" "Karen Damiani" 29-SEP-1998 17:10:23.76 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle aggression This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_AI8yF6xNycm/vYcMFx/yiw) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable > 1. Are cattle changing in their behaviour toward humans > (and their dogs). There have been two or three very > nasty incidents recently in which dog owners out > in the pastures with their pets have been injured > or killed and their dogs killed (or escaped). > > Could it be that the reduction of numbers of people > living and working on the farms is reducing the > habituation of cattle? Having owned well handled cattle for a few years I would like to offer = some observations When i have heard reports of attacks in the past they seem to have = coincided with calving periods. During these periods i could get near my cattle and the calves, but = definitely not strangers and if the dogs came in they were converged = upon by the whole herd, even though generally they were tolerated. Makes sense particularly in semi rural areas where stray dogs may frequently threaten cattle and the cattle are vulnerable in = this stage. Also cattle are pretty discriminatary and seem to be able to differentiate between individual humans and individual dogs. Even at other times of = the year any strange dog coming on to my property was considered a potential threat, wheras my dogs could generally wander freely, any human stranger = was avoided or checked out, wheras they seemed accepting of humans they were regularly in contact with. Donna wrote I had a frightening experince while hiking with 3 friends and 1 dog last winter in a public park that is rented out for grazing. Scattered groups of cows gathered from neighboring hills and began to to run towards our small group. They became increasingly aggitated: yearlings butting heads and mother cows mooing excitably as they grew closer to us. I believe there were about 30 cows total. We realized things were getting a bit serious when a young bull came to the front...very near us...and turned sideways, kicking his heels up while looking us in the eye. This only excited the other cows more and they all began to crush closer to us. We turned and ran to a tree for cover and were pursued by the whole scarey, bellowing lot! They surrounded us and bellowed for a few minutes. And then, all simutaneously turned and walked away...back to their far off hillsides for more contented grazing. We speculated it was the dog with us that instigated the attack (she acted more frightened than any of us!). I have heard rumours that the park district may ban the cattle grazing from the public trails areas because of other complaints of cow attacks, but have not yet had this confirmed. It is pretty terrifying being mobbed by cattle, but that behavior might = be considered normal by me with my own cattle. In the winter with food = scarce my cattle were fed out hay regularly and the sight of a human = would cause great excitement, sounding similar to the event described. = was this an attack? Do cattle attack in mobs of 30? Are they = territorial? There were calves present and a strange dog, which could have been = percieved as a threat. =20 The cattle may have been semi domesticated with reduced fear of humans = and dogs, yet lacking trust which is a problem also i believe with some = wildlife in public parks .=20 I also felt that jeffs comments were relevant as you would be unlikely = to give an exceptional sire the flick for an attitude problem and would = be unlikely to be breeding for temperament. Karen Damiani Canine Behavior and Training Australian Canine Current Events www.ssc.net.au/karend/ --Boundary_(ID_AI8yF6xNycm/vYcMFx/yiw) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
 
> 1. Are cattle changing in their behaviour toward = humans
> (and=20 their dogs). There have been two or three very
> nasty incidents = recently=20 in which dog owners out
> in the pastures with their pets have = been=20 injured
> or killed and their dogs killed (or = escaped).
>
>=20 Could it be that the reduction of numbers of people
> living and = working=20 on the farms is reducing the
> habituation of = cattle?


Having=20 owned well handled cattle for a few years I would like to offer some=20 observations
When i have heard reports of attacks in the past they seem to have=20 coincided with calving periods.
 During these periods i could get near my cattle and the = calves, but=20 definitely not strangers and if the dogs came in they were converged = upon by the=20 whole herd, even though generally they
were tolerated. Makes sense=20 particularly in semi rural areas where stray
dogs may frequently = threaten=20 cattle and the cattle are vulnerable in this stage.  Also
cattle = are=20 pretty discriminatary and seem to be able to differentiate
between = individual=20 humans and individual dogs.  Even at other times of the
year any = strange=20 dog coming on to my property was considered a potential
threat, = wheras my=20 dogs could generally wander freely, any human stranger was
avoided or = checked=20 out, wheras they seemed accepting of humans they were
regularly in = contact=20 with.


Donna wrote

I had a frightening experince while hiking with 3 friends and 1 = dog
last winter in a public park that is rented out for=20 grazing.

Scattered groups of cows gathered from neighboring hills = and=20 began to
to run towards our small group.  They became = increasingly=20 aggitated:
yearlings butting heads and mother cows mooing excitably = as they=20 grew
closer to us. I believe there were about 30 cows = total.

We=20 realized things were getting a bit serious when a young bull came
to = the=20 front...very near us...and turned sideways, kicking his heels
up = while=20 looking us in the eye. This only excited the other cows more
and they = all=20 began to crush closer to us.

We turned and ran to a tree for = cover and=20 were pursued by the whole
scarey, bellowing lot!  They = surrounded us and=20 bellowed for a few
minutes. And then, all simutaneously turned and = walked=20 away...back to
their far off hillsides for more contented = grazing.

We=20 speculated it was the dog with us that instigated the attack = (she
acted more=20 frightened than any of us!).  I have heard rumours that the
park = district may ban the cattle grazing from the public trails = areas
because of=20 other complaints of cow attacks, but have not yet had=20 this
confirmed.

It is pretty terrifying being mobbed by = cattle, but=20 that behavior might be considered normal by me with my own cattle.  = In the=20 winter with food scarce my cattle were fed out hay regularly and the = sight of a=20 human would cause great excitement, sounding similar to the event = described. was=20 this an attack?  Do cattle attack in mobs of 30? Are they=20 territorial?
There were calves present and a strange dog, which could have been=20 percieved as a threat. 
The cattle may have been semi domesticated with reduced fear of = humans and=20 dogs, yet lacking trust which is a problem also i believe with some = wildlife in=20 public parks .
I also felt  that jeffs comments were relevant as you would be = unlikely to  give an exceptional sire the flick for an attitude = problem and=20 would be unlikely to be breeding for temperament.
 
Karen Damiani
Canine Behavior and = Training
Australian Canine Current Events
www.ssc.net.au/karend/<= /DIV>
 
--Boundary_(ID_AI8yF6xNycm/vYcMFx/yiw)-- From: IN%"eoprice@ucdavis.edu" "Edward O. Price" 29-SEP-1998 18:22:05.34 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'Applied Ethology Network'" CC: Subj: Cattle Aggression Dear All: One explanation for the aggression exhibited by cattle toward humans is that they have not learned some basic social inhibitions because of being reared in physical isolation from conspecifics. We conducted a study at UC Davis in the late '80s in which we hand-reared Hereford bull calves from birth either in physical isolation from other calves or in small groups. The physically isolated animals became very dangerous to handle once they reached puberty while the group-reared males behaved toward people like mother-reared males (i.e. exhibited some flight distance). We had to get rid of the physically-isolated animals earlier than expected because of the risk they posed for us researchers. These Hereford bulls were reared in the same manner as nearly all dairy bulls - in physical isolation from conspecifics. We hypothesized that physically isolated males never learn the give and take associated with agonistic behaviors (i.e. aggression often leads to retaliation by the other party). Consequently, animals reared in this manner are more likely to take aggressive liberties with people when the right conditions prevail. We published a short paper on these observations: Price, E.O. and S.J.R. Wallach. 1990. Physical isolation of hand-reared Hereford bulls increases their aggressiveness toward humans. Applied Animal Behaviour Science 27: 263-267. Ed Price Department of Animal Science UC Davis From: IN%"Emily.Patterson-Kane@vuw.ac.nz" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 29-SEP-1998 18:42:22.40 To: IN%"applied-ethology-error@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Hi, I would like to ask a bit of a 'career development' question. I am just finishing a PhD in rat enrichment, having done a masters on a visual perception topic in hens. My questions is where might I find a job? I would be interested in any type of post, Research/Teaching Assitant, post-doc etc in any country, but seem to be a bit 'out of the loop' when it comes to hearing about them... My other question is more in keeping with the purpose of the list... If there are two groups of animals (ie rats). One of them makes many more responses during extinction then the other. How might you decribe this finding? ie learning problem, frustration? The group difference was in housing conditions... and, does any-one remember 'frustration fixation' (Maier?, 193? 194?) and have a reference for it? This is essentially when an animal is given a task too hard to learn or impossible. It tends to behave 'weird' vocalising, muscle tension... it may drop to chance performance even on task it was previously able to do... are there any more recent theories about this kind of finding? thanks for your time E G Patterson-Kane From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" 29-SEP-1998 18:53:33.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle aggression Thanks to Sheree Walters and Karen Damiani for the most comprehensive answers so far on the cattle aggression mystery. A few comments on my particular experience based on what you've noted. 1) The incident occured in winter. Here in CA, that is when grazing is at its best (lovely green grasses in great abundance), so food shortage would not apply in this case. (Altho, we did wonder if the cows were at first mistaking us for ranchers and were coming over in anticipation of special supplements or 'treats') 2) The cattle in our situation are rotated around many of the public parklands, so should by now be habituated to the thousands of trail users (including untold number of dog-walkers) that pass through day in and day out....all of us 'strangers'. 3) 'Territorialism' would seem to be less of an issue w/ cattle that is kept on a constant rotation thru-out the parklands (?) Also, in our situation, we are not talking about hikers trespassing thru a defined pasture, but an immense parkland of hundreds of acres of open space. 4) We initially passed thru the herds (we were on trail and know all about giving the cattle a wide berth) w/o incident, yet it was not until we were quite a ways away (up a steep hill and about 1/2 mile from the nearest small group) that they simutaneously decided to stop their grazing and come on up for a closer look at our group. 5) If it makes any difference, we were hiking during a wonderful but torrential rainstorm...perhaps the cattle felt this was not 'typical two-legged behavior' and reacted from that ?? 6) A park ranger on the phone today did confirm for me that numerous other trail users were reporting similiar 'mobbings' in different parks thru-out the East Bay Regional Park District. Yowsa!! Oops...just picked this up...by Ed Price of UC Davis.. >> Consequently, animals reared in >this manner are more likely to take aggressive liberties with people >when the right conditions prevail. Ed, what would you describe as "the right conditions"? In other words, how to avoid an aggressive interaction with cattle in a situation such as is occurring in the parklands? -Donna Reynolds From: IN%"learning@ozemail.com.au" "Dr. Carlos A. Raimundo" 29-SEP-1998 18:56:51.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology" CC: Subj: Oxytocin This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_/t3H4wNwX1rM/x3ypvHLiQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable I'm following with great interest the dialogue about oxytocin, I'm a = psychiatrist-psychotherapist, I have many patients presenting = interpersonal problems in showing, needing, giving, receiving etc = physical affection and sex. Do you know of any research about humans and = oxytocin in this regard. If this is the "cuddle chemical", the "love = hormone", as mention in one of the last e-mail this could be a "magic" = solutions to so many people "suffering" for the inability of giving or = receiving love and affection. =20 Even though I have no much to do with dogs, cows etc I'm enjoying this = site, and I'm applying many of your thoughts and contributions to my = private practice and corporate work. www.questforbalance.com.au =20 Dr. Carlos A. Raimundo cr@questforbalance.com.au --Boundary_(ID_/t3H4wNwX1rM/x3ypvHLiQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
I'm=20 following with great interest the dialogue about oxytocin, I'm a=20 psychiatrist-psychotherapist, I have many patients presenting = interpersonal=20 problems in showing, needing, giving, receiving etc physical affection = and sex.=20 Do you know of any research about humans and oxytocin in this regard. If = this is=20 the "cuddle chemical", the "love = hormone", as=20 mention in one of the last e-mail this could be a "magic" = solutions to=20 so many people "suffering" for the inability of giving or = receiving=20 love and affection.
 
Even though I have no much to do with dogs, cows etc I'm = enjoying this=20 site, and I'm applying many of your thoughts and contributions to my = private=20 practice and corporate work.
www.questforbalance.com.au
 
Dr. Carlos A. Raimundo
cr@questforbalance.com.au
--Boundary_(ID_/t3H4wNwX1rM/x3ypvHLiQ)-- From: IN%"joan@meganet.net" 29-SEP-1998 20:42:00.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca" CC: Subj: CATTLE AGGRESSION Donna Reynolds wrote: > The cattle in our situation are rotated around many of the public > parklands, so should by now be habituated to the thousands of trail > users (including untold number of dog-walkers) that pass through > day in and day out....all of us 'strangers'. > Makes me wonder if some or many of these hikers aren't somehow interacting with these cows - feeding, letting dogs mess with them, whatever. This sounds like what my cattle would do if alternately fed by strangers then annoyed by dogs. Come to see what you are all about and maybe even do a little "mobbing", get mad at stupid dogs, get excited and generally be a pain. As with dog aggression, people often interpret very normal animal behavior as "aggression" when they are unfamiliar with handling them. Course the cattle aggression that I have seen has been breed dependent, (I've yet to meet a nice Scottish Highlander) and heavily influenced by previous socialization to and treatment by humans, environment, calving season, age and sex. I've milked some really nasty cows who were just that temperament within the breed as all other things were as equal as we could observe (who knows how she feels about her calf hood). These particular cows could even get iffy when you brought hay out on the truck. I've brought cattle down out of summer pasture out west and I sure wouldn't get off my horse and go walking around in the herd giving them treats or trying to pet them. Mostly my experience (a lot) has been that if you leave them be, they'll leave you be. Bet something is going on between those California cows and the hikers. Regards, Joan -- ______________________ Joan Weintraub mail to joan@meganet.net CompatiPup Canine Services Tiverton, RI / Newton, MA 401-625-5953 From: IN%"billings@AESOP.RUTGERS.EDU" "Heather J. Billings" 29-SEP-1998 21:57:32.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "applied ethology" CC: Subj: cattle-aggression? Dear all, Just thought I'd toss an alternative idea into the discussion. I don't know whether cattle behavior has changed over time, but rather than agression, could it be play behavior? Any large animal could be quite dangerous were it to get a bit too "frisky" near humans. This comes to mind mainly as the one example given described the cattle as young. Play behavior typically includes a variety of behaviors displayed in adulthood, but not necessarily displayed in the appropriate context. One theory is that it is an opportunity for young animals to practice the motor patterns needed for diplaying these behaviors as adults. Certainly it seems reasonable that to an untrained observer (and perhaps even to trained observers) the two could be easily confused. Heather **************************************** Heather J. Billings Dept. Animal Sciences Rutgers University 84 Lipman Dr. New Brunswick, NJ 08901 billings@aesop.rutgers.edu "Education is not preparation for life; education is life itself." -John Dewey ***************************************** From: IN%"ivoryhaven@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 29-SEP-1998 22:40:22.96 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle aggression Dear All, Upon re-reading the original cow and dog message when I was more awake I see that I misunderstood and that the dog was with the people...my comments earlier posted about cattle dogs and their jobs was based on my thinking the dog was with the cows not the people in the story...sorry..did not mean to sound flippant.. Sheree Walters > >Donna wrote in part >We speculated it was the dog with us that instigated the attack (she >acted more frightened than any of us!). I have heard rumours that the >park district may ban the cattle grazing from the public trails areas >because of other complaints of cow attacks, but have not yet had this >confirmed." > <") ,-''/^ ^`\ ~,~~''``^-.. (.) , ) \ `\ (`) . o ) ) )\ (`\/ (' / .) \ `-//..^ \__/ ( ) \ // \ ( ,) /\ / `/( /^~~--~~~^`( ) '| / | ( .) ( / ( .) /-.\ /-.| /-.| /-.| (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) Ivory Haven - Laura the Elephant's House on the Web: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248 http://www.newaygo.com/MI-Living ICQ WorldWide Pager for Sheree at: http://wwp.mirabilis.com/2602279 http://www.Tel3.com/0194166 Get a Free Phone Card, help support Laura..MLM/Op From: IN%"aa266@cleveland.Freenet.Edu" 29-SEP-1998 22:48:44.36 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Applied-ethology has gone to the dogs! I appreciate the problem, but I object to the solution. Mammalian behavior applies to all such species and more. I do not deal professionally with other than dogs and cats for lack of advanced skills in other species. But I do learn from discussions about other species, and I cannot help but believe that those centered on other species could learn from dog and cat discussions. All of science is converging; not diverging. Separate interest groups would damage our cause. Reply to message from joseph.stookey@sask.usask.ca of Fri, 25 Sep > >Dear All, > >I am beginning to wonder if Applied-ethology has outgrown itself from the >original intention? It seems to me that the vast number of postings which >relate to dogs, plus the lack of messages relating to other species >(especially farm animals) has detracted from the 'usefulness' of this >list-server in the eyes of individuals who I personally had hoped to >attract. Now, before everyone (at least all the dog people) scream foul >and tell me to learn how to use the delete button, I would remind you that >I DO KNOW who is subscribed and who is NOT SUBSCRIBED to this list! >Meaning, I know for certain of people (whom I respect and admire as >applied-ethologists) who have unsubscribed from this list server because >they do not see the value of continually discussing dog training issues >and behaviour problems of dogs and cats. Certainly, there is interesting >pieces of information that have wide spread application, which could >relate to many species. However, I wonder if the time has come for a >split in applied-ethology; where we let a subject area and all interested >parties form another e-mail discussion group? > >Could we not have a list server called Canine-feline-ethology or >Canine-feline-behaviour? Anyone interested in both list servers could >subscribe to both. I do not see the value of driving away the people we >had originally hoped to attract by continually discussing topics that are >not of interest to the original 'share-holders' and ISAE members. > >Of course everyone realizes that anyone is free to discuss any topic that >is of interest to them. It means that no one should unsubscribe because a >topic they like is not discussed. "All of these so-called farm animal >people should discuss topics that interest them too!" However, in reality >it doesn't seem to work that way. Some topics and groups build momentum, >and right now everyone who owns a dog wants to subscribe to the list and >further discuss topics that interest them (which is dogs) and all the farm >animal people are unsubscribing. > >Please! If there is a substantial number of people who want to >specifically discuss dog and cat behaviour can we not form another >list-server? Anyone at any University can seek the help from their >computer systems operators (like I did) and set up a list-server. The >systems (for the most part) are self-operating. Just think of the glory >you will receive from your University peers when you tell them how >successful your Canine-feline-ethology network is operating! Many of us >'farm animal' people may subscribe! I will give you all the information >and insight I have in how to set up and administer a network. > >Anyone interested? Please, someone contact me and let's make the split! >Otherwise at some point in the not-so-distant future I am going to have to >unsubscribe myself! > >Thanks for letting me offend every dog and cat person on here! (But >someone had to do it!) > >Sincerely, > >Joe Stookey > > ------------------------------ >Joseph M. Stookey >Department of Herd Medicine and Theriogenology >Western College of Veterinary Medicine >University of Saskatchewan >Saskatoon, Saskatchewan >S7N 5B4 > > > -- ^ ^ DBC (aka D.B. Cameron, DVM) < \ / > Animal Behavior Clinic 440/826-0013 ! ! 18250 Main Street Fx: 234-3407 .. Middleburg Hts., OH 44130 From: IN%"ivoryhaven@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 29-SEP-1998 23:00:06.91 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Cattle & species related play Excellant observation....I live with elephants....and Laura is a 16 year old African Female. She tends to try to "play" with me and interacg as she might with another elephant. When swimming I do not have the trunk that she uses as snorkel.. I almost drowned once because she bobbed me up and down...another elephant wold have had no problem with this type of play...As a human I need to be saved because I could not get enough air in between dunks... Elephants tend to kick when playing..obviously my human legs would not tolerate those kicks without breaking..but she does not realize that......so I have to be careful to stay out of her way during that type of "frisky" activity and also discourage kicking at humans as acceptable behavior with a resounding "NO!" Also note that with elephants...whatever space they are occupying at the time becomes their territory....and their space is much larger than what a human would consider "personal" space.... Pulling the nose hair on an elephants trunk (or even holding its trunk too tightly - like pinching someones nose) would result in the elephant wanting to slap the offender....a normal reaction even for a human.....anoter example where the elephant might be blamed for an "attack" when it is agai relative to size. The same slap would not hurt another elephant. Elephants slam heads like freight trains..even for play...not just when fighting with each other.....Humans cannot survive that...elephants can... whose to blame? Just examples.... Sheree Walters At 11:57 PM 9/29/98 -0400, you wrote: >Dear all, > >Just thought I'd toss an alternative idea into the discussion. I don't >know whether cattle behavior has changed over time, but rather than >agression, could it be play behavior? Any large animal could be quite >dangerous were it to get a bit too "frisky" near humans. This comes to >mind mainly as the one example given described the cattle as young. Play >behavior typically includes a variety of behaviors displayed in adulthood, >but not necessarily displayed in the appropriate context. One theory is >that it is an opportunity for young animals to practice the motor patterns >needed for diplaying these behaviors as adults. Certainly it seems >reasonable that to an untrained observer (and perhaps even to trained >observers) the two could be easily confused. > >Heather > >**************************************** >Heather J. Billings >Dept. Animal Sciences >Rutgers University >84 Lipman Dr. >New Brunswick, NJ 08901 >billings@aesop.rutgers.edu > >"Education is not preparation for life; >education is life itself." -John Dewey > >***************************************** > > > > From: IN%"DrPMira@aol.com" 29-SEP-1998 23:16:20.69 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Applied ethology I am a college biology teacher with an interest in animal behavior as it applies to ecology. My current assignment is to teach an animal behavior course to vet tech majors at a small college in Buffalo, NY. Since I have no veterenary science background, I find the discussions on this list quite interesting. They provide me with an insight to and examples of applied ethology that help me relate my theoretical knowledge and presentations to my students. I would be disappointed if the list were to limit subscription to ISAE members or to split into two lists. I find most of the contributions to the list interesting and not excessive in number. The subject line usually provides me with the subject of any contributions that I would not be interested in. I do not find it inordinately inconvenient to delete them. Just the opinion of an "outsider" who appreciates the opportunity to benefit from your list. Thanks. Peter A. Mirando, PhD Medaille College Buffalo, NY DrPMira@aol.com pmirando@medaille.edu From: IN%"ffab@po.anoa.or.jp" 29-SEP-1998 23:58:53.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: agressivity and non-mammalian animal I read with great interest all the threads about aggressive cow but I was wondering : Is "abnormal" aggressivity a mammals specificity or could that also happen with reptiles or birds ? Also another question that may be very naive : I've heard that there were things that human can really not forgive (like swimming, walking and ... riding a bicycle) and that was because of the "reptilian brain". Can anyone provide more accurate explanation ? Is there also things that other animals can learn and hardly forgive (even after a brain accident or experience...) ? Thank you for your time. I would like to add that discussing about too many irrelevant (or not) post on a list is quite a good thing, at least it proves that the list is a success. Nothing is worst than a useless dead list and remember, if the post doesn't fit you, that doesn't mean it fit no one ;-) Cheers, fabien ### Life is much funny when you laugh of it ### From: IN%"loo@las.vet.uu.nl" "Pascalle van Loo" 30-SEP-1998 01:40:08.63 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ritualisation Dear dr Pontes, As a student I have worked on social behaviour of children with conduct disorder. We published the study in 1995: Matthys W. et al. Behavior of conduct disordered children in interaction with each other and with normal peers. Child Psychiatry and Human Development, vol 25(3), 183-195. We found that CD children are 'different' because they do not communicate with appropriate positive social signals. They do not differ in antisocial behaviour from control peers, at least not when they first meet. I am currently working in a completely different behaviour field (laboratory animals), but I know that the research we started back then has been continued, both with CD children and autistic children. You might like to contact dr W. Matthys (child psychiatrist). He works at the Academic Hospital of Utrecht, The Netherlands. I hope this information helps, Regards, Pascalle Van Loo $*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$ NOTE THAT MY E-MAIL ADDRESS HAS CHANGED! IT IS NOW: LOO@LAS.VET.UU.NL $*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$* *$* $*$ $*$ Department of Laboratory Animal Science *$* *$* Utrecht University $*$ $*$ P.O. Box 80.166 *$* *$* 3508 TD UTRECHT $*$ $*$ The Netherlands *$* *$* $*$ $*$ tel: ** 030 - 2532033 *$* *$* fax: ** 030 - 2537997 $*$ $*$ *$* *$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$*$ From: IN%"haussman@rs4703.ansc1.uni-hohenheim.de" "HANS HAUSSMANN" 30-SEP-1998 05:51:36.94 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Killer cows and Konrad Lorenz After seeing so many postings of people with ignorance about cattle (sorry) and fantastic hypotheses I am also close to the point of signing off. I would prefer two forums, one for ISAE members and one for others interested in animal behaviour. (I am not sure whether I am an ISAE member yet or not. I will try to clarify this.) K. Lorenz mentions two cases when he and his brother were in danger by cattle and pigs respectively. He and his brother had a dog with them. I located the place more precisely now in the book "Das sogenannte Boese" in his remarks on mobbing in paragraph 3. I think an English version of the book is: "On Agression", 1997, Fine Publications (Bb). Of course cows can also be dangerous without a dog. This depends on many circumstances some of which are described in the literature. Regards ___________________ Hans Haussmann haussman@uni-hohenheim.de ,--¬_ Dept. for Animal Husbandry and Animal Breeding ,;;,_ ____/ /|/ (Institut fuer Tierhaltung und Tierzuechtung) ;; ( )___, ) ' University of Hohenheim, Germany ,' // V\__ Fax + 49 711 459 4239 _ / \ / \ Fon + 49 711 459 2476 (3006) ¬ ¬ ' Home page www.uni-hohenheim.de/aw ___________________ Mail 470/NT, Uni Hohenheim, D-70593 Stuttgart From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "appleby" 30-SEP-1998 06:02:33.33 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: canine depression In article , Debi Davis writes >Actually, the thread began with guide dog training, which is heavily >compulsion oriented. Service dog organizations are beginning to switch to >non-punishment based training programs. Dear all, I have watched this thread and bit my tongue for long enough. The original poster made the assertions that guide dogs for the blind display depressed behaviours and that the training methods used are compulsive. These are gross generalisations and the statements should be qualified or withdrawn by those that have made them thus far. As D.B. Cameron's comments and Debi Davis' activities with service dogs has indicated there must be guide dogs, guide dog owners, guide dog training schools and guide dog trainers who live and work outside of other poster's experience and do not use compulsive methods or cause the animals concerned to display depressed behaviours. Despite this all guide dog training and ownership has been denigrated by implication on a world wide forum! Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"joseph.barber@wolfson.oxford.ac.uk" "Joseph Barber" 30-SEP-1998 06:21:42.39 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Introducing myself Hello everybody, My name is Joseph Barber and I am just starting my PhD at Oxford studying 'motivation and stress in layers (Gallus gallus domesticus)'. I have just stumbled upon this network by pure chance, but is seems like a gold-mine of information. And so to my first question... There is much evidence around stating how highly motivated animals become frustrated if they are unable to perform the specific behaviour that is motivated. This seems especially true for behaviours such as feeding or nest building where the motivation is fairly independent of external stimuli. Is there any literature regarding frustration of reproductive motivation (one of the most important aspects of an animal's life?)? Are animals kept in same sex groups motivated to reproduce, or is it the presence of the opposite sex that triggers this? Thus, is sterile egg laying by hens an adequate substitute for mating and egg laying seen in feral or wild conspecifics? Joseph Barber From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 30-SEP-1998 06:59:07.35 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle aggression > > 1. Are cattle changing in their behaviour toward humans > > (and their dogs). The answer is, No. The question should be, "Are people changing their behavior toward cattle?" And I believe the answer is clearly, Yes! The rate of cultural change in humans leading to ignorance of cattle fars exceeds any probable genetic change in the behavior of cattle in the recent past. Why is the attempt to place the blame on the cattle? ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland From: IN%"d.arey@ab.sac.ac.uk" 30-SEP-1998 07:26:52.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Cattle aggression Have'nt cattle always been inquisitive, protective and run on mass toward potential interesting/threatening stimuli - look at wild buffalo. A novel dog probably gets singled out for particular attention because of these reasons. I don't know whether 'killer cattle' are becoming more common, my guess is probably not, they just receive more media interest. However, placidity was once highly selected for in many domestic species but this seems to have been superseded by productivity traits as agricultural practices have changed. Again, although anecdotal, we are hearing more reports of the so-called 'continental' breeds of cattle being more difficult to handle. Dale > > > 1. Are cattle changing in their behaviour toward humans > > > (and their dogs). > > The answer is, No. > > > The question should be, "Are people changing their behavior > toward cattle?" And I believe the answer is clearly, Yes! > > The rate of cultural change in humans leading to ignorance > of cattle fars exceeds any probable genetic change in the > behavior of cattle in the recent past. > > Why is the attempt to place the blame on the cattle? > > > ---------------------- > W. Ray Stricklin > University of Maryland > > > Dale Arey GIBiol PhD SAC Animal Biology Division Ferguson Building Craibstone Aberdeen AB21 9YA UK Tel: 01224 711058 From: IN%"miklosa@ludens.elte.hu" 30-SEP-1998 07:29:34.11 To: IN%"APPLIED-ETHOLOGY@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: email address for Anne McBride Could anyone please give me the email address and or phone number of dr Anne McBride (univ. of Southampton, England) Thanks in advance, ADAM Miklosi (dept. of Ethol., HUngary) From: IN%"ws31@umail.umd.edu" 30-SEP-1998 07:46:17.30 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Autocommunication Jon and others, On Mon, 28 Sep 1998 10:31:51 +1000 bob.kilgour@smtpgwy.agric.nsw.gov.au wrote: > However, what I thought was striking was that the > animals waiting to be dehorned showed no signs, at least overt signs, > of distress. Was this a case of the animal bellowing for its own > benefit or simply a lack of reaction in animals that fully understood > that something unpleasant was likely to happen? > Jon, I know that you are getting limited feedback on your question - some good and some maybe not so good. However, I thought the above comments by Bob Kilgour were very good and quite interesting. It may take you away from some of your original objectives, but measuring the responses of other cattle to the vocalization of the individual experiencing the pain could be quite interesting. I think that it might be especially interesting to measure the response of close relatives. I have a belief (bias) that cattle are very "genetically selfish" in some of their behavioral responses. (I am thinking of responses to pain, etc. and not just social behavior.) If cattle respond differentially on the basis of kinship (associative factors), then response to vocalizations could be a method by which one could quantify differences between kin and non-kin. ---------------------- W. Ray Stricklin University of Maryland