From: IN%"JBrody@compuserve.com" "James F. Brody" 15-SEP-1999 11:52:02.92 To: IN%"hbe-l@a3.com" "INTERNET:hbe-l@a3.com", IN%"paleopsych@kumo.com" "Paleopsych", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology", IN%"evolution@human-nature.net" "Human Nature", IN%"Ian.Pitchford@scientist.com" "INTERNET:Ian.Pitchford@scie CC: Subj: World Congress of the Systems Sciences Hello, Dr. Corning, a member of HBES, asked that this be forwarded. It's also posted at http://forums.behavior.net/evolutionary. Jim Brody -------------Forwarded Message----------------- From: INTERNET:WrldISSS2K@aol.com, INTERNET:WrldISSS2K@aol.com To: , JBrody = Date: 9/14/99 4:21 PM RE: World Congress of the Systems Sciences = Dear Jim: I am writing to ask that you distribute the following announcement (also = included as an attached file) to your friends/members e-mail list. We wo= uld = very much appreciate your assistance and would be happy to post your = announcements on our list in return. Many thanks, Peter Corning President World Congress/ISSS 2000 International Society for the Systems Sciences 560 Waverley Street, Suite 202 Palo Alto, CA 94301 USA Tel: 1-650-325-5583 Fax: 1-650-325-3775 Email: WRLDISSS2K@aol.com Website: www.ISSS.org ANNOUNCING A MILLENNIAL EVENT A WORLD CONGRESS OF THE SYSTEMS SCIENCES, CO-HOSTED BY MORE THAN 20 ORGANIZATIONS/GROUPS IN CONJUNCTION WITH THE 44TH ANNUAL MEETING, INTERNATIONAL SOCIETY FOR THE SYSTEMS SCIENCES TORONTO, CANADA, JULY 16-22, 2000 To help celebrate the new millennium, the International Society for t= he = Systems Sciences (ISSS) and some 20 "co-host" organizations in the system= s = field will jointly present a three-day World Congress of the Systems Scie= nces = in downtown Toronto Canada during the summer of the year 2000. The purpo= se = of the Congress will be to provide a scientific forum for addressing the = many = challenges that humankind will face in the new century. The theme will b= e: = "Understanding Complexity: The Systems Sciences in the New Millennium." = Former ISSS Presidents Stafford Beer and Anatol Rapoport will serve as = honorary co-chairpersons. The Congress will begin with a "mini-course" and workshop in the = afternoon, and a welcoming reception and concert on Sunday, July 16th. T= his = will be followed by three full days (Monday-Wednesday) of morning keynote= and = co-host plenary speeches, afternoon panels with presentations by = representatives of each co-host organization, and informal evening = workshop/discussion sessions to allow for more personal interaction and = dialogue. Speakers will include Russell Ackoff, Stafford Beer, John Casti, John= = Holland, Ervin Laszlo, Ilya Prigogine (tentative), Anatol Rapoport and Da= vid = Sloan Wilson. Other invitations are pending. Co-host speakers will inclu= de = Hal Linstone, Mike Jackson, George Klir, Stanley Salthe, Bill Shireman, = Brian Swimme, Robert Vall=E9e, Paul Wohlmuth and others. Some are as yet= to be = arranged. Participants in the Congress will also be entitled to attend the 44th= = annual meeting of the International Society for the Systems Sciences on = Thursday to Saturday (July 20-22), which will feature panels and discussi= on = sessions on a broad array of topics and issues. Many panels and symposia= = will be arranged by the more than 25 "Special Integration Groups" within = ISSS, but there will also be various special forums, symposia and paper = panels. Some titles include: "The Lessons of Y2K," "Healthy Communities = in a = Healthy World," "Re-thinking Human Rights and Global Responsibilities in = the = New Millennium," "The Art and Science of Forecasting in the Age of Global= = Warming," "Capitalism in the New Millennium: The Challenge of = Sustainability," "What is Life?" and "Thermoeconomics: Beyond the Second= = Law." = = We are also planning special workshops and mini-courses on various = topics. Currently four have been scheduled: (1) "A Comprehensive = Introduction to the Systems Sciences," (2) "The Natural Systems Sciences= and = Doing Systems Research," (3) "The 'Stealth' Systems Science Curriculum,"= and = "Understanding Complexity Through Systems Modeling." Other special features include international video/Internet participa= tion = via a number of remote sites, a banquet a public lecture by a distinguish= ed = public figure (Friday, July 21st), and a "wrap-up" Open Forum on Saturday= = (July 22nd). Attractively priced accommodations and meals will be availa= ble = at Ryerson University and nearby. = IF YOU WOULD LIKE MORE INFORMATION, PLEASE CONTACT YOUR CO-HOST ORGANIZAT= ION = OR THE ISSS. A DETAILED "CALL FOR PARTICIPATION" AND REGISTRATION FORMS = CAN = BE FOUND ON OUR WEBSITE: WWW.ISSS.ORG CONFERENCE ORGANIZER: Dr. Peter A. Corning (ISSS President), World = Congress/ISSS, 560 Waverley Street, Ste. 202, Palo Alto, CA 94301 USA. = Ph: = (650) 325-5717 FAX: (650) 325-3775 E-Mail: WRLDISSS2K@aol.com = LOCAL ORGANIZER: Dr. Helmut (Ken) Burkhardt, Ryerson Polytechnic Univers= ity, = Toronto. Ph: (416) 979-5000 ext. 7246 FAX: (416) 979-5064 E-Mail: = Burkhard@acs.ryerson.ca = CO-HOST ORGANIZATIONS (as of September 1, 1999): American Society for = Cybernetics, Assocation Fran=E7aise de Science des Syst=E8mes Cybern=E9ti= ques, = Cognitifs Et Techniques (AFSCET), Center for Applied Development Studies,= = Center for Hyperincursion in Anticipatory Systems, Center for Intelligent= = Systems, Concordia Institute, Epic of Evolution Society, Global Futures = Foundation, Infodynamics Group, Institute for Law and Systems Research, = Institute for the Study of Complex Systems, Interact, International = Federation for Systems Research, International Institute for Advanced Stu= dies = in Cybernetics and Systems, International Society for the Systems Science= s, = International Systems Institute, Korean Society for Systems Research, = Portland State University Systems Science Program, Principia Cybernetica,= = Semiotics Research Unit (U. Toronto), Swedish Operational Research = Association, Systems Science European Union (UES), United Kingdom Cyberne= tics = Society, United Kingdom Systems Society, Washington Evolutionary Systems = Society, World Future Society, World Organization of Systems and Cybernet= ics. ----------------------- Internet Header -------------------------------- Sender: WrldISSS2K@aol.com Received: from imo19.mx.aol.com (imo19.mx.aol.com [198.81.17.9]) by spamgaaa.compuserve.com (8.9.3/8.9.3/SUN-1.6) with ESMTP id QAA13317 for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:21:29 -0400 (EDT) From: WrldISSS2K@aol.com Received: from WrldISSS2K@aol.com by imo19.mx.aol.com (mail_out_v22.4.) id fKNFa06252 (4230) for ; Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:20:57 -0400 (EDT) Message-ID: <8ef4b53e.25100829@aol.com> Date: Tue, 14 Sep 1999 16:20:57 EDT Subject: World Congress of the Systems Sciences To: JBrody@compuserve.com MIME-Version: 1.0 Content-Type: multipart/mixed; boundary=3D"part1_8ef4b53e.25100829_bounda= ry" X-Mailer: AOL 4.0 for Windows 95 sub 22 From: IN%"Jon_Day@adas.co.uk" "Jon Day" 16-SEP-1999 03:04:45.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"s.edwards@abdn.ac.uk" Subj: JOB VACANCY UNIVERSITY OF ABERDEEN, UK POSTDOCTORAL RESEARCH FELLOW =A315,735 - =A321,815 per annum (pay award pending) A post funded by the Ministry of Agriculture, Fisheries and Food, is availa= ble from October 1999 in the DEPARTMENT OF AGRICULTURE. The post is available initially for one year and subject to satisfactory pr= ogress, the project will then continue for a further two years. You will be= based at the ADAS experimental pig unit at Terrington near Kings Lynn and = will be responsible for implementing a programme of research designed to in= vestigate the nature of environmental enrichment for pigs and its role in b= ehavioural development, welfare and performance. This will include working = in conjunction with a research assistant registered for a higher degree. Th= e project involves collaboration between The University of Aberdeen, ADAS C= onsulting Ltd and six different commercial organisations representing all s= ectors of the pigmeat production industry. It therefore offers the opportun= ity to gain research experience in both an academic and industrial context.= (Post reference ZAG123R). =20 You will have a PhD in a suitable subject area (although other appropriate = research experience may be considered in exceptional circumstances). Experi= ence of practical pig production will be an advantage. Informal enquiries should be made as soon as possible to Dr Sandra Edwards = telephone (01224) 274222; e-mail s.edwards@abdn.ac.uk; fax (01224) 273731, = or Dr Jon Day telephone (01553 828621); e-mail jon.day@adas.co.uk; fax (015= 53) 827229. The information in this electronic mail message is confidential and intende= d only for use by the addressee. Any view expressed are those of the indivi= dual sender and not of ADAS unless otherwise stated. This message has been checked for known virus. ADAS Postmaster Postmaster@adas.co.uk From: IN%"cat111@hotmail.com" "Sheri Coutermarsh" 16-SEP-1999 11:30:58.16 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: captivity question Hi, my name is sheri and I a senior in high school. In order to graduate I am required to complete a senior project. I have decided to focus on the subject of ethology and, more specifically, animal behavior in captivity. The topic which I wish to research is the supression and/or invention of instinctual behaviors due to captivity. ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 20-SEP-1999 02:48:20.10 To: IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" "G. F. Barbato" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Kansas and Darwin > gotta love dem pope fellers.... Being in no way a specialist when it comes to the history of the catholic church (and that after 13 years of catholic religious instruction in school; I wonder how that could have happened?), I just read an article about the apparently ever so liberal pope Pius XII, which makes the whole story look a lot less pleasant. This article described his dealings with the Nazis, and his more or less open sympathy for their 'beliefs', which took evolution one step further, and decided that they should not leave it to nature, but direct it themselves. We all know what happened. It's not just people who take the Bible literally we have be watch out for. Evolution can be abused just as easily. And something that sounds like a liberal view can have a very different, and frightening background. Maybe this is also an answer to the question as to whether the 'belief' in evolution has ever hurt anyone. Hans Dr Hans Erhard Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Tel.: 01224 - 318611 Fax.: 01224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"JMORRIS@ridgetownc.uoguelph.ca" "JIM MORRIS" 20-SEP-1999 11:32:32.21 To: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk", IN%"gfb1@psu.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: RE: Kansas and Darwin Dr. Ethard: I see much adue hppening here over nothing. I believe that all was created be God the Crator. But I also thinks that evolution is the process of creating. Creation is not complete and is continueing as we speak or write. God does not reveal all at any one time or to one person. The understanding of His handywork continues to be revealed to those seeking after it. This process is continuing today. To me there is no conflict between the revelations of truth through the scientific method and the concept of "creation" Even Jesus was put on this earth in the "fullness" of time. This indicates th cration is yet ocurring not only in the physical dimension but in the psychological and philisophical ones as well. I could go on , but had better stop before going too far and getting some more upset than they already are. Jim >>> Hans Erhard 09/20 5:44 AM >>> > gotta love dem pope fellers.... Being in no way a specialist when it comes to the history of the catholic church (and that after 13 years of catholic religious instruction in school; I wonder how that could have happened?), I just read an article about the apparently ever so liberal pope Pius XII, which makes the whole story look a lot less pleasant. This article described his dealings with the Nazis, and his more or less open sympathy for their 'beliefs', which took evolution one step further, and decided that they should not leave it to nature, but direct it themselves. We all know what happened. It's not just people who take the Bible literally we have be watch out for. Evolution can be abused just as easily. And something that sounds like a liberal view can have a very different, and frightening background. Maybe this is also an answer to the question as to whether the 'belief' in evolution has ever hurt anyone. Hans Dr Hans Erhard Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Tel.: 01224 - 318611 Fax.: 01224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"zanella@pilot.msu.edu" "Dr. Adroaldo J. Zanella" 20-SEP-1999 12:39:57.47 To: IN%"absnet-post@gila.cisab.indiana.edu", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: JOB Research Assistant Position Available: =09 Animal Behavior & Welfare Group; Department of Animal Science, Michigan State University. =09 More information: Adroaldo J. Zanella zanella@pilot.msu.edu Phone: (517) 432-4134 Telefax: (517) 353 1699 =09 Access to MSU job posting at: http://www.hr.msu.edu/Depts/Emp/postings.asp =09 Reference: P90359 =20 Research Assistant I (Grade 11) $29,701 Minimum=20 This vacancy is part of a job group that is underutilized for minorities. REQUIRED: bachelor's degree in animal behavior, zoology, animal science, psychology, veterinary medicine, or closely related field; one year of related and progressively more responsible or expansive work experience in any or all of the following experimental methodologies: behavioral observation techniques (check-sheets, behavior observation software, video-recording), questionnaire development, web-page development, data analysis using statistical software (SAS or SPSS), and molecular biological techniques (Western blot, Northern blot, RNA isolation); or an equivalent combination of education and experience.=20 DESIRED: master's degree or Ph.D.=20 BASIC FUNCTION: will be involved in general organization of the animal behavioral laboratory; activities include: field work; training undergraduate and graduate students in the above mentioned techniques; assists program supervisor with graduate and undergraduate courses; order equipment, supplies, and reagents; research carried out by the animal behavior group is focused primarily on discovery and validation of behavioral and physiological indicators to monitor animal stress and welfare; main emphasis of the program will be on farm animals, but some experiments may involve companion, zoo, and laboratory animals. This is an off-date position funded for one year from date of hire with possible extension contingent upon funding renewal. Closing date: 9/30/99. MICHIGAN STATE UNIVERSITY IS AN AFFIRMATIVE-ACTION, EQUAL OPPORTUNITY INSTITUITION =09 =09 Dr. Adroaldo Jos=E9 Zanella Assistant Professor Ethology and Environmental Physiology Department of Animal Science Michigan State University Anthony Hall,=20 East Lansing , MI 48824 =46ax: (517) 353 1699 Phone: (517) 432 4134 From: IN%"chris@lovebirds.netlineuk.net" "lovebirds" 21-SEP-1999 02:27:05.66 To: IN%"mmspringer@worldnet.att.net" "Mary Springer", IN%"Genetics-Psittacine@onelist.com", IN%"lovebirds@gcstation.net" "El's Lovebird List", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology List", IN%"awindsong1@aol.com" "Janet" CC: Subj: FYI: Color-marked Hummingbirds For your information Best wishes Chris (UK) chris@lovebirds.netlineuk.net ----- Original Message ----- From: N Frumin To: Sent: 21 September 1999 00:48 Subject: [RARS] FYI: Color-marked Hummingbirds > From: ORNITH-L@LISTSERV.UARK.EDU > > REQUEST FOR INFORMATION ON SIGHTINGS OF COLOR-MARKED RUBY-THROATED HUMMINGBIRDS > > (Please forward this posting to other appropriate lists to which > you may subscribe.) > > Fall migration of Ruby-throated Hummingbirds (Archilochus colubris) > is under way in the northcentral Piedmont of South Carolina. I have > been banding hummingbirds here at Hilton Pond near York SC (just > south and west > of Charlotte NC) since 1984. Although the Piedmont seems NOT to be a > hummingbird migrational pathway or staging area, through 20 September > 1999, I have still managed to capture and band 2,004 RTHU, and have > retrapped many RTHU in subsequent years after banding. > > To minimize recapture of banded hummingbirds in my pull-string traps, > I am authorized by the federal Bird Banding Lab to mark each bird > from York with non-toxic GREEN dye on the upper breast and throat. > (In fact, I > use a so-called "permanent" felt-tip marker, but the dye wears or > washes off within a month or so.) In early August I also banded RTHU > at Hawk Mountain Sanctuary in Kempton, Pennsylvania, using BLUE dye. > > Because we know little about actual overland migrational pathways for > hummingbirds, I would appreciate hearing about any sightings you may > have of color-marked hummingbirds during migration this spring and > fall. > > Color-marking of hummingbirds here at Hilton Pond paid off in October > 1991 when a woman in Atlanta saw an "unusual" hummingbird with a > green throat and called Bob Sargent, a fellow hummingbird bander from > Alabama. Bob drove to Atlanta, trapped the bird, and after reading > the band number learned I had banded it in South Carolina. This, to > the best of our knowledge, was the first report of a banded > Ruby-throated Hummingbird to be recaptured and released away from its > original banding site. > > In FAll 1997, a woman in Louisiana, sighted another "green-throated" > hummingbird that was likely a RTHU banded here in York; this sighting > further supports the idea that at least some East Coast RTHU migrate > not to south Florida but to the Texas Gulf Coast before a trans-Gulf > or Mexican overland crossing. This bird may also have been the first > "long-distance" sighting of a marked RTHU. > > If you see a color-marked hummer, do not attempt to trap it (it's > against federal law to do so unless you have a special permit), but > please contact me at my personal e-mail address below (I'm not > currently subscribed to > BIRDCHAT or HUMNET) or at my home phone. If you find a dead banded > bird, read the band number and also contact the Bird Banding Lab at > 1-800-327-BAND or via their reporting website page at > http://www.pwrc.usgs.gov/bbl/homepage/recwbnd.htm. > > Thanks for any help you can provide in taking close looks at > hummingbirds at your feeders during the fall of 1999 and again next > spring. > > > Bill Hilton Jr. > (Master Banding Permit #21558) > > *********** > > ******* > > BILL HILTON JR. > "The Piedmont Naturalist" > Hilton Pond > 1432 DeVinney Road > York, South Carolina 29745 > USA > > Consultant and speaker on science education, teacher training, and > natural history > > voice: (803) 684-5852 > fax: (803) 684-5852 (call first) > e-mail: bhilton@infoave.net > > "Never trust a person too lazy to get up for sunrise or too busy to > watch the sunset." > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > | Natalie Frumin "There's no substitute | > | nvf@byway.com for intellectual honesty" | > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > ================================================================== > TOPIC KEYWORDS: 4SALE,BREEDING,CHAT,DEBATE,HEALTH,ISSUES,MISC,NEWS From: IN%"jeanpascal.guery@free.fr" "Jean-Pascal Guery" 21-SEP-1999 15:12:07.57 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Informations on dog scent marking behavior This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_7nvUHV+htjWUUdb1ZcFGtA) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable Hello, I'm french & I'm a student in applied ethology in Paris. I want to be = specialized in dog behavior and I'm actually working on scent marking = behavior in urban environment. I wish you could help me to find some = references on this behavior. Thanks. Jean-Pascal Gu=E9ry jeanpascal.guery@free.fr --Boundary_(ID_7nvUHV+htjWUUdb1ZcFGtA) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
Hello,
I'm french & I'm a student in applied = ethology in=20 Paris. I want to be specialized in dog behavior and I'm actually working = on=20 scent marking behavior in urban environment. I wish you could help me to = find=20 some references on this behavior. Thanks.
Jean-Pascal Gu=E9ry
jeanpascal.guery@free.fr
--Boundary_(ID_7nvUHV+htjWUUdb1ZcFGtA)-- From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 21-SEP-1999 22:06:59.15 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Informations on dog scent marking behavior Specifically regarding urban dogs and urine marking, you might find the following useful: Beck AM (1973). The Ecology of Stray Dogs: A Study of Free-Ranging Urban Animals. Baltimore, MD: York Press. Bekoff M (1979). Scent-marking by free-ranging domestic dogs: Olfactory and visual components. Biol Beh, 4:123-139. Font E (1987). Spacing and social organization: Urban stray dogs revisited. Appl Anim Behav Sci, 17:319-328. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelphia, PA Jean-Pascal Guery wrote: > Hello,I'm french & I'm a student in applied ethology in Paris. I > want to be specialized in dog behavior and I'm actually working on > scent marking behavior in urban environment. I wish you could help me > to find some references on this behavior. Thanks.Jean-Pascal Guéry > jeanpascal.guery@free.fr From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 22-SEP-1999 10:37:16.97 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Dog behaviour question - sorry! I am on the committee of an animal welfare group and we are having great difficulty in deciding what we ought to do about one particular dog. He is two years old, a border collie cross and was taken in about a year ago because his original owner could not cope with his behaviour. We rehomed him shortly after the original admission and the new owner made strenuous efforts with him, but decided a few weeks ago that she had to admit defeat. The dog is fine with other dogs and with people. He was originally terrified of any loud noises, but this was controlled fairly well by desensitisation training - playing tapes of the frightening noises at gradually increasing volume while distracting him with a ball. This was done under the supervision of a professional dog behaviourist. He is still terrified of thunder - will destroy wooden doors and injure himself biting metal reinforced ones to get out of doors when a storm approaches and can only be calmed by walking on a lead. We have tried leaving him in an open enclosure during storms and he simply smashed through the fence. He has never shown any signs of aggression however frightened he is. He is not adapting well to kennel life and has now started self-mutilating by chewing himself. We have tried various tranquilisers including clomicalm and are very close to deciding euthanasia is the only possible option. Any suggestions would be much appreciated. ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"WayneH42@aol.com" 22-SEP-1999 23:16:08.22 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Informations on dog scent marking behavior Jean-Pascal Guery wrote: > Hello,I'm french & I'm a student in applied ethology in Paris. I > want to be specialized in dog behavior and I'm actually working on > scent marking behavior in urban environment. I wish you could help me > to find some references on this behavior. Thanks.Jean-Pascal Gu=E9ry > jeanpascal.guery@free.fr Here are more references. Wayne Hunthausen, DVM Animal Behavior consultations Westwood, KS Scent marking in the canidae Kleiman, D In Jewell PA, Loizos C (ed):=20 Play, Exploration, and Territory in Mammals. New York, Academic Press, 1966,=20 pp. 167-177 =20 Scent marking in the canidae Kleiman, D Symp Zool Soc London, 18:167-177= ,=20 1966 =20 Scent marking and sexual behavior maintained in anosmic male dogs Hart BL=20 and Haugen CM Commun Behav Biol 6:131-135 1971 =20 Environmental and hormonal influences on urine marking behavior in the adult=20 male dog Hart BL Behav Biol 11:167, 1974=20 =20 Scent rubbing in carnivores Roeger O Carnivore 1979;2(1):17-25 =20 Potential for applications of anal sac volatiles from domestic dogs Bradshaw=20 JWS Natynczuk SE and Macdonald DW Chemical Signals in Vertebrates (1990) 5ed. DW Macdonald, D Muller-Schwarze=20 and SE Natynczuk, pp640-644 Oxford U. Press =20 Accuracy of scent mark identification for free-ranging dogs Bekoff M =20 Journal of Mammology, (1980) 57, 372-375 Elimination behaviour of domestic dogs in an urban environment Verberne G.=20 Appl. Anim. Behav. Sci. Vol. 12(3): 279-287, Apr 1984 =20 Castration and urine marking in dogs Stuart J JAVMA, 163:1014, 1973 =20 =20 Castration of adult male dogs: Effects on roaming, aggression, urine marking=20 and mounting Hopkins, SG; Schubert, TA; and Hart, BL JAVMA, 168:1108-1110= ,=20 1976 =20 Castration and urine marking in dogs Hart BL JAVMA, 164:140, 1974 =20 =20 Taste and Smell in Vertebrates, ed GEW Wolstenholme and J Knight, London:J=20 and A Churchill (1970) =20 =20 From: IN%"serpell@vet.upenn.edu" "James Serpell" 23-SEP-1999 15:02:33.85 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Conference announcement The Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society (CIAS) at the University of Pennsylvania, in association with the Center for Animal Health & Productivity (CAHP), invites you to the Sixth Interdisciplinary Conference on Human Relations with Animals and the Natural World. Please pass this message on to all who might be interested. ___________________________________________________________ "Food Animal Husbandry and the New Millennium: Ethical, Environmental, and Societal Impacts." Friday, Nov. 5th, 1999 The Auditorium, The Wistar Institute, 36th and Spruce Streets, Philadelphia, PA 19104, USA Presentations will include: "Contentious Issues in Animal Production: The Broader Context of Environmental and Social Concerns." Paul B. Thompson Ph.D., Director, Center for Food Animal Productivity and Well-being, and Joyce and Edward E. Brewer Distinguished Professor, Dept. of Philosophy, Purdue University, USA. "Animal Welfare Issues in the Dairy and Swine Industries." Jeffrey Rushen, Ph.D., Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, Quebec, Canada. "Animal Welfare Issues in the Poultry Industry: Is There a Lesson to be Learned?" Ian J.H. Duncan Ph.D., Professor of Ethology, and Chair in Animal Welfare, University of Guelph, Ontario, Canada. "The Culture and Agriculture of Animal Production." David Fraser Ph.D., Professor of Animal Welfare, Faculty of Agricultural Sciences and Centre of Applied Ethics, University of British Columbia, Canada. Conference registration is free but all attendees MUST PRE-REGISTER. To register send name and address/affiliation to Damir Akhoundov or phone: 215-898-2239. For further details of the conference as they become available, visit the CIAS "conferences" webpage at: http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/ The conference is sponsored by a generous grant from the Provost's Interdisciplinary Seminar Fund of the University of Pennsylvania. James A. Serpell Ph.D. ___________________________________________________________________ Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society, Dept. of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Tel: (215) 898-1004 3900 Delancey Street, Fax: (215) 573-6050 Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010, USA serpell@vet.upenn.edu http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/ From: IN%"kah3@cornell.edu" 23-SEP-1999 15:53:42.38 To: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dog behaviour question - sorry! We usually use amitriptyline daily during the thunder storm season and add a benzodiadepine, preferably sustained release clorazepate but it has become very expensive in the US , when a storm is predicted. We found that to be superior to propranalol and phenobarbital in a controlled testr. Desensitzing using thunder storm tapes ( from above the dog) simulated rain and flashing lights will help too. On Wed, 22 Sep 1999, R. Rodd wrote: > I am on the committee of an animal welfare group and we are having great > difficulty in deciding what we ought to do about one particular dog. > He is two years old, a border collie cross and was taken in about a year > ago because his original owner could not cope with his behaviour. > We rehomed him shortly after the original admission and the new owner made > strenuous efforts with him, but decided a few weeks ago that she had to > admit defeat. > > The dog is fine with other dogs and with people. He was originally > terrified of any loud noises, but this was controlled fairly well by > desensitisation training - playing tapes of the frightening noises at > gradually increasing volume while distracting him with a ball. This was > done under the supervision of a professional dog behaviourist. > > He is still terrified of thunder - will destroy wooden doors and injure > himself biting metal reinforced ones to get out of > doors when a storm approaches and can only be calmed by walking on a > lead. We have tried leaving him in an open enclosure during storms and > he simply smashed through the fence. He has never shown any signs of > aggression however frightened he is. > > He is not adapting well to kennel life and has now started self-mutilating > by chewing himself. > > We have tried various tranquilisers including clomicalm and are very close > to deciding euthanasia is the only possible option. > > Any suggestions would be much appreciated. > > ---------------------------------------- > Rosemary Rodd > Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre > Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 > > From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 23-SEP-1999 16:26:25.46 To: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dog behaviour question - sorry! You describe an extremely anxious dog. Without going into a specific diagnostic procedure which is impossible in this format, I can offer some generic suggestions: - This will take time and dedication by the owners. If that is not possible, do all a favor and put the dog down. He is not living a happy life. If you do decide on treatment, drugs are a necessity in my experience and, in a severe case like this, probably for life. On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:36:42 +0100 (BST) "R. Rodd" writes: > I am on the committee of an animal welfare group and we are having > great > difficulty in deciding what we ought to do about one particular dog. > He is two years old, a border collie cross and was taken in about a > year > ago because his original owner could not cope with his behaviour. > We rehomed him shortly after the original admission and the new > owner made > strenuous efforts with him, but decided a few weeks ago that she had > to > admit defeat. > > The dog is fine with other dogs and with people. He was originally > terrified of any loud noises, but this was controlled fairly well by > desensitisation training - playing tapes of the frightening noises > at > gradually increasing volume while distracting him with a ball. This > was > done under the supervision of a professional dog behaviourist. > > He is still terrified of thunder - will destroy wooden doors and > injure > himself biting metal reinforced ones to get out of > doors when a storm approaches and can only be calmed by walking on a > lead. We have tried leaving him in an open enclosure during storms > and > he simply smashed through the fence. He has never shown any signs of > aggression however frightened he is. > > He is not adapting well to kennel life and has now started > self-mutilating > by chewing himself. > > We have tried various tranquilisers including clomicalm and are very > close > to deciding euthanasia is the only possible option. > > Any suggestions would be much appreciated. > > ---------------------------------------- > Rosemary Rodd > Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre > Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" 23-SEP-1999 22:12:28.13 To: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dog behaviour question - sorry! Please, Rosemary, don't put this dog down. There are some new, experimental and wonderful dog behaviorists here in the San Francisco Bay Area. I work in a shelter here in the City. We call behaviorists in frequently to help us with shelter dogs who suffer from severe anxiety disorders. They've accomplished some amazing things. I'm sure one of them would be willing to help this dog. Please contact me and I will put you in touch with someone. Regards, Chris Hurley From: IN%"margory@dnai.com" "margory cohen" 24-SEP-1999 07:33:32.80 To: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Dog behaviour question - sorry! Wednesday, September 22, 1999 9:36 AM, R. Rodd wrote: > I am on the committee of an animal welfare group and we are having great > difficulty in deciding what we ought to do about one particular dog. > He is two years old, a border collie cross and was taken in about a year > ago because his original owner could not cope with his behaviour. hello, i don't understand why this dog would even be out in a storm. that an owner would have trouble with a border cross tho is not surprising; these dogs are high energy and really require special attention. heart-breaking what happens when people don't follow thru. not knowing the kind of group you have, don't understand why placement is a problem. in san francisco, i saw someone posted about trainers, but there is also a no-kill shelter thru which animals are placed. i know some, most probably, breed groups don't get involved with placing crosses but is there not a no-kill shelter where you live? margory From: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" 24-SEP-1999 09:41:23.70 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Position at Farm W/Elephants Would anyone who might be interested in a full time position at private farm in Michigan working with 1.1 African elephants please email me privately and I will send you the full information about the position available.=20 This is a family run farm out on a dirt road in a small charming community in West Michigan. We are not open to the public though the female elephant does do educational programs and works off the farm about 30-35 days a year to help complete the facility. The job offer is for room and board plus some pay. The real reward is the opportunity to observe and interact on a daily basis with the elephants. Thanks, Sheree Walters =20 <") ,-''/^ ^`\ ~,~~''``^-..=20 (.) , ) \ `\=20 (`) . o ) ) )\ (`\/ (' / .) \=20 `-//..^ \__/ ( ) \ // \ ( ,) /\ / `/( /^~~--~~~^`( ) '|=20 / | ( .) ( / ( .) =20 /-.\ /-.| /-.| /-.| (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) (nn ) Ivory Haven - Laura the Elephant's House on the Web: http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248 Learn how Laura earns money while she sleeps! Take an e-commerce Safari with her! New Online Mall! http://www.geocities.com/RainForest/2248/safarishop.html "By sharing a vision... Perhaps others may expand their horizons as well Through the energy that most personal journeys create." Sheree =A9 1997 From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 24-SEP-1999 11:45:37.35 To: IN%"margory@dnai.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Thoughtless answer to Dog behaviour question - sorry! I find it cruelly thoughtless that an apparently strong animal rights person would suggest a shelter or placing a dog like this without any apparent concern for dealing with his vital need for therapy. In my opinion, it is not enough to "care". One must care rationally and knowledgeably if one's efforts are to be useful. This is one seriously anxious dog who is spending all his days in some degree of terror. In my opinion, this is no way to live and if no provision for therapy is provided, then this endlessly miserable life should be terminated mercifully. Happily, most of these dogs CAN be treated with reasonable degrees of success, so there is no absolute need for euthanasia. See my next post for more detailed suggestions. DBC On Fri, 24 Sep 1999 05:37:49 -0700 margory cohen writes: > Wednesday, September 22, 1999 9:36 AM, R. Rodd wrote: > > > I am on the committee of an animal welfare group and we are having > great > > difficulty in deciding what we ought to do about one particular > dog. > > He is two years old, a border collie cross and was taken in about > a year > > ago because his original owner could not cope with his behaviour. > > hello, > > i don't understand why this dog would even be out in a storm. that > an owner > would have trouble with a border cross tho is not surprising; these > dogs are > high energy and really require special attention. heart-breaking > what > happens when people don't follow thru. > > not knowing the kind of group you have, don't understand why > placement is a > problem. in san francisco, i saw someone posted about trainers, but > there > is also a no-kill shelter thru which animals are placed. i know > some, most > probably, breed groups don't get involved with placing crosses but > is there > not a no-kill shelter where you live? > > margory > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 24-SEP-1999 11:45:38.75 To: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Dog behaviour question - sorry! Dear Ms. Rodd, You describe an extremely anxious dog. Without going into a specific diagnostic procedure which is impossible in this format, I can offer some generic suggestions: - Successful therapy will take time and dedication by the owners. If that is not possible, do all a favor and put the dog down. He is not living a happy life. If you do decide on treatment, drugs are a necessity in my experience and, in a severe case like this, probably for life. - The first step is to have a thorough physical including a CBC and chem screen. This is to discover any predisposing problems as well as being a necessary prerequisit for drug therapy. Assuming all is well in this department: - Begin drug therapy and behavior mod at the same time. One will not work without the other. That is, drugs will not fix anxiety problems by themselves, and B.M. takes so long to show even beginning desired effects that owners quite usually give up on the dog when, after a long string of very frustrating events, some particularly egregious house damaging or self mutilation takes place. - Drug therapy. In my experience clomipramine is the best first drug to use. If expense is a problem (these dogs will be on drugs for a MINIMUM of 6 months and perhaps for life), amitriptyline is in the same family of drugs, is nearly as effective, and is MUCH less expensive. Trying not to be redundant, expense is a serious consideration, because if the owners do not give all the drugs needed or quit giving drugs, the case will most likely be lost. I always warn owners that, among other things (described), their pet may well show some sedation for a few days but that most will get over that soon. Then I start them on a low dose for 10 days and then up it to a low normal dose. If after 3 or 4 weeks the patient has not shown significant improvement, the dose is upped by 50 to 100%. The observation period is repeated and the dose adjusted again depending on response and side effects. At some point the patient is doing decently, showing too many side effects, or not doing well behaviorally. Then other drug options may kick in. > > On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:36:42 +0100 (BST) "R. Rodd" > writes: > > I am on the committee of an animal welfare group and we are having > > > great > > difficulty in deciding what we ought to do about one particular > dog. > > He is two years old, a border collie cross and was taken in about > a > > year > > ago because his original owner could not cope with his behaviour. > > We rehomed him shortly after the original admission and the new > > owner made > > strenuous efforts with him, but decided a few weeks ago that she > had > > to > > admit defeat. > > > > The dog is fine with other dogs and with people. He was originally > > terrified of any loud noises, but this was controlled fairly well > by > > desensitisation training - playing tapes of the frightening noises > > > at > > gradually increasing volume while distracting him with a ball. > This > > was > > done under the supervision of a professional dog behaviourist. > > > > He is still terrified of thunder - will destroy wooden doors and > > injure > > himself biting metal reinforced ones to get out of > > doors when a storm approaches and can only be calmed by walking on > a > > lead. We have tried leaving him in an open enclosure during storms > > > and > > he simply smashed through the fence. He has never shown any signs > of > > aggression however frightened he is. > > > > He is not adapting well to kennel life and has now started > > self-mutilating > > by chewing himself. > > > > We have tried various tranquilisers including clomicalm and are > very > > close > > to deciding euthanasia is the only possible option. > > > > Any suggestions would be much appreciated. > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Rosemary Rodd > > Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre > > Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free > e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: > http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 24-SEP-1999 11:56:40.17 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Prune me Please? I have just received this and am of course most anxious to respond helpfully. I have a problem with the "prunes" and the "toast" My own dabblings with ancient texts alerts to to the possibility that the "prunes" are more likely to be "clippings" than wrinkly preserved fruit. But the "toast" has me baffled. Can anyone divine what the Spanish might have been? "Hello My name is XXXXX, and I am from Argentina. I am English's faculty's student, I am studying the first year of the career. Visit your it paginates for that, I have a matter called Partner culture where we see the different lifestyles of the English-speaking countries, and I play myself to make a work I practice about the English traditions regarding the animals. We know that in England it is valued the animals a lot, for that reason my investigation about this topic. I would like to request you information about this same topic, I would also like to know if some law that aids the animals exists. If you could help me with this information Would be a great pleasure for me. I hope to be able to receive some help on your behalf, since serious very beneficial for our study the material use authenticates, as which you prunes me to toast. From already be thank to have taken you some seconds to read my mail. I greet you very sincerely, from Argentina. XXX Robin E Walker B.Vet.Med. M.R.C.V.S. The Veterinary Clinic 78 Bromyard Road Worcester WR2 5DA Tel (++44 (0)1905 421296 Fax ++44 (0)1905 422287 Centre of Applied Pet Ethology Association of Pet Behaviour Counsellors From: IN%"prubiale@library.berkeley.edu" "Padma Rubiales" 24-SEP-1999 12:14:15.38 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: dog behavorists I am very interested in dog behavior, and wonder if there are any programs or training in the SF Bay Area for studying it. Also any books people can recommend, or web sites that may be helpful. thanks so much, Padma From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 24-SEP-1999 15:28:01.25 To: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" Subj: RE: Dog behaviour question - sorry! Dear Ms. Rudd, You describe an extremely anxious dog. Without going into a specific diagnostic procedure which is impossible in this format, I can offer some generic suggestions: - Therapy for this dog, while reasonably optimistic for an acceptable improvement, will take time and dedication by the owners. If that is not possible, do all a favor and put the dog down. He is not living a happy life. If you do decide on treatment, drugs are a necessity in my experience and, in a severe case like this, quite possibly for life. - The first step is to get a thorough physical including a CBC and Chem screen. This will help rule out any covert disease processes and, in any case, is a necessity before starting any kind of drug therapy. - Next start behavior mod and drug therapy at the same time. Neither works by itself. Beh. mod. is rarely successful by itself for anxiety cases primarily because pet owners are not willing or able to devote the time, discipline, and dedication to making it work, and when they make a beginning attempt they themselves are not reasonably promptly reinforced (by observing an improved patient) to keep going. That is, BM results take too long to be apparent. Also, BM will not make an anxious patient less anxious; just less reactive. This where drug therapy comes in: It works quickly and it does reduce anxiety. Thus it makes the patient better and within a time frame that reinforces owners to keep up the good work. You mentioned that you had used clomipramine, but not how much or how long. Also, this is expensive stuff and if that is a factor with the owners they are actively dissuaded from giving the drug at the dose and for the length of time suggested. (IMO 6 months is the minimum time that most cases need to learn new and better ways of dealing with the world, and extreme anxiety cases like you describe not uncommonly need drug therapy for years or life.) Where cost is a factor (most of my patients) amitriptyline works nearly as well and is MUCH less expensive. Start the drug at a low dose for 10 days or so and warn the owners of potential side effects including that there may well be some mild sedation for a few days, but that this goes away in most cases. Then after the 10 days, up the dose to low or middle therapeutic range. Then evaluate after a month and adjust the dose as indicated. I stop increasing dose if: The patient is adequately controlled or the side effects are unacceptable. This may be the time to try another drug or combinations of drugs. Sometimes meletonin is a useful addition for anxious patients. - The BM is vital for success. There are a wide variety of techniques available and you have mentioned a couple. Essentially, the keys are to lower anxiety levels in all areas of the dog's life. This includes: - No after the fact punishment. - Extremely non-personal leaving/returning rituals. - Do not force the patient to perform. - Lower the emotional level in the home as it relates to the patient. - In general, allow the patient to discover his own resources. - Do not reinforce anxiety, e.g., do not overtly stop him from chewing on himself. Often the best thing in such a case is for you to leave the area. Alternatively, "Jolly" (ref. Bill Campbell) the patient. When he is anxious you get overtly stupid-silly-happy (bounce a ball, jump around, giggle, etc.), BUT NOT AT THE PATIENT. The message is, "This storm, child, fireworks, etc. is so fun and happy-exciting that only a foolish party-pooper would have any concern about it. Essentially, you LEAD your patient out of his fear; you do not push or pull him out of it. - Teach behavior that leads to self control. The prime one is long down-stays, so that you can leave the area for extended periods without the patient breaking the down. Obviously this takes a relatively long time, but it should be started right away in a non-stressful (happy-fun) manner. - Distract the patient, BUT NOT PERSONALLY. If you personally distract the patient from anxious behavior, chances are excellent that it will be perceived as attention which reinforces the anxious behavior. Buster Cubes and Kong toys are useful. Also, just hiding treats around the house and/or yard may help. As mentioned before, just leaving the area is very often useful. - Regular follow-ups with the therapist are vital to allow perspective into the game. - Repeat the blood tests about every 6 months as long as the patient is on drugs to be sure all is well. - When you try to wean off the drugs, do it VERY slowly; over 3 months or more. And at ANY sign of recurrence, immediately go back to full dose. And if it has been a tough fight, staying on drugs without any attempt at weaning may be wise. A rare few cases stop responding to drugs as they used to when weaning is attempted. Anxiety diseases are not easily treated. Witness the problems common in our species. But with time, persistence, and discipline most can be improved enough to make the patients acceptable pets. But if it does not work, in my opinion a lifetime of terror and living with demons is more horrible than euthanasia. Sorry for being so long winded. DBC On Wed, 22 Sep 1999 17:36:42 +0100 (BST) "R. Rodd" > writes: > > I am on the committee of an animal welfare group and we are having > > > great > > difficulty in deciding what we ought to do about one particular > dog. > > He is two years old, a border collie cross and was taken in about > a > > year > > ago because his original owner could not cope with his behaviour. > > We rehomed him shortly after the original admission and the new > > owner made > > strenuous efforts with him, but decided a few weeks ago that she > had > > to > > admit defeat. > > > > The dog is fine with other dogs and with people. He was originally > > terrified of any loud noises, but this was controlled fairly well > by > > desensitisation training - playing tapes of the frightening noises > > > at > > gradually increasing volume while distracting him with a ball. > This > > was > > done under the supervision of a professional dog behaviourist. > > > > He is still terrified of thunder - will destroy wooden doors and > > injure > > himself biting metal reinforced ones to get out of > > doors when a storm approaches and can only be calmed by walking on > a > > lead. We have tried leaving him in an open enclosure during storms > > > and > > he simply smashed through the fence. He has never shown any signs > of > > aggression however frightened he is. > > > > He is not adapting well to kennel life and has now started > > self-mutilating > > by chewing himself. > > > > We have tried various tranquilisers including clomicalm and are > very > > close > > to deciding euthanasia is the only possible option. > > > > Any suggestions would be much appreciated. > > > > ---------------------------------------- > > Rosemary Rodd > > Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre > > Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free > e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: > http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 25-SEP-1999 07:20:06.43 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: behaviourist fees Hi everyone! A question that fits with Dr. Cameron's last posting and a friend's report that one hour service from an animal behaviourist cost $95.00: Would people refrain from using the services of a behaviourist because of the cost? Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 25-SEP-1999 07:27:32.23 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees At 09:19 AM 09/25/1999 -0400, Deborah McWilliams wrote: >Hi everyone! > A question that fits with Dr. Cameron's last posting and a >friend's report that one hour service from an animal behaviourist >cost $95.00: > >Would people refrain from using the services of a behaviourist >because of the cost? > >Deb I am a dog trainer and I charge one hundred dollars an hour for house calls. Only I call them in home training. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"jkincaid@kawartha.com" "John Kincaid" 25-SEP-1999 07:38:23.06 To: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: behaviourist fees Hi Deb; No wonder there are so many maladjusted dogs! I would certainly think twice before paying that fee. John Deborah McWilliams wrote: > Hi everyone! > A question that fits with Dr. Cameron's last posting and a > friend's report that one hour service from an animal behaviourist > cost $95.00: > > Would people refrain from using the services of a behaviourist > because of the cost? > > Deb > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > Deborah A. McWilliams > B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc > > Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 25-SEP-1999 09:52:10.99 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees > Hi Deb; > No wonder there are so many maladjusted dogs! I would certainly think > twice before paying that fee. > Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > Hi everyone! > > A question that fits with Dr. Cameron's last posting and a > > friend's report that one hour service from an animal behaviourist > > cost $95.00: > > > > Would people refrain from using the services of a behaviourist > > because of the cost? > > > > Deb Surely this depends upon how much you value the expertise of the person who you are consulting, and how serious the problem is In the UK I could not get someone to do a ten minute housecall to look at a washing machine for that kind of money; and he would only be there to check it over, not to try to fix it. Not to mention an absence of expensive training, indemnity, support....... I would hope that a veterinary surgeon with specialist knowledge in behavioural medicine would charge considerably more than $95, and that his/her clients would value the advice enough to pay for it. I would love to see an average US vet fee for a one hour consult in the client's home! I would also hope that a non-veterinary behaviourist would be expert enough to justify their charges too, and that they would be similarly indemnified. From: IN%"cbrady@four-h.purdue.edu" "Colleen Brady" 25-SEP-1999 19:22:32.15 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Behaviorist Fees Deb, Unfortunately, there are people who don't vaccinate their animals because = they think it is too expensive, so there are definitely people who would = not pay a behaviourists fees, even if they really needed assistance. Colleen Brady, Ph.D. Purdue University 1161 Agriculture Administration Bldg. W.Lafayette, IN 47907-1161 cbrady@four-h.purdue.edu From: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" 25-SEP-1999 21:10:55.22 To: IN%"cbrady@four-h.purdue.edu", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Behaviorist Fees Is this discussion of dog behaviorists' fees in response to R. Rodd's email concerning the dog with an anxiety disorder? I know behaviorists' fees are steep, but I hope this doesn't deter Ms. Rodd from seeking the professional assistance of one - especially one who may suggest alternatives that haven't already been tried. She said she is affiliated with an animal welfare concern and I know that often behaviorists will render their services for free if it means saving a dog's life. They do this all the time at the San Francisco shelter, thank goodness. Regards, Chris Hurley From: IN%"colwellk@ozemail.com.au" "Kim Colwell" 25-SEP-1999 22:08:56.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees No way on earth! Are you talking US$? That's about $150 Australian!!! I've never been asked that of ANY medical specialist. It sounds to me as though they are cashing in on the "cuddly animal" nerve that seems to be in most people. Watch the news with a group of people and you'll see more sympathy poured out for the poor little doggy that was lost in the fire than for the 8 people that were torched to death. That's why the news (at least the services on commercial networks) 9 times out of 10 finish up with a cute animal story. It makes everyone feel good and forget the serious stuff going on in the world that was just served up. It's sad but it seems most people prefer animals to people. >Hi Deb; >No wonder there are so many maladjusted dogs! I would certainly think >twice before paying that fee. > >John > >Deborah McWilliams wrote: > >> Hi everyone! >> A question that fits with Dr. Cameron's last posting and a >> friend's report that one hour service from an animal behaviourist >> cost $95.00: >> >> Would people refrain from using the services of a behaviourist >> because of the cost? >> >> Deb >> >> dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca >> >> Deborah A. McWilliams >> B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc >> >> Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph >> Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > > From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 26-SEP-1999 03:11:53.95 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees > No way on earth! Are you talking US$? That's about $150 Australian!!! > I've never been asked that of ANY medical specialist. It sounds to me as > though they are cashing in on the "cuddly animal" nerve that seems to be in > most people. Watch the news with a group of people and you'll see more > sympathy poured out for the poor little doggy that was lost in the fire than > for the 8 people that were torched to death. > That's why the news (at least the services on commercial networks) 9 times > out of 10 finish up with a cute animal story. It makes everyone feel good > and forget the serious stuff going on in the world that was just served up. > It's sad but it seems most people prefer animals to people. I think you are wrong. The comparison with Australia is poor. Veterinary salaries have traditionally been much lower there than in the UK or USA, and vet costs likewise are lower. This is one reason why we see so many Australian vets in the UK. I was talking to one the other day who said he was waiting for salary levels to pick up back home before he would be willing to go back. In the UK most vets charge £14-20 for a 5-10 minute consult. That's £140-400 per hour. This has to cover the costs of staff and premises, but there may be similar costs from running a behaviour clinic. These are just normal clinicians in general practice in the UK. US prices ought to be about the same or a bit higher. If you specialise, how can you afford to charge less than this? Veterinary fees are not exceptional compared to medical, in fact medical fees are considerably higher. This is ignoring the point that many other, non-professional, services cost exactly the same (or more). Try calling someone out to clear a drain if you want a bit of a shock. Two years ago I was quoted between £80 and £150 to clear a blocked drain. This job took less than ten minutes. I had to pay because I had not way to do the job myself. There is no question of 'cashing in'. This is a naive attitude; the whole of society is based upon payment for time, skill, strength, expertise and use of specialised equipment. In all situations where something MUST be done, then somebody will find a way to charge for it. Medical treatment, funerals, car repairs, house removals, drain cleaning. In the UK veterinary behaviourism is still in its infancy, and the market is quite small. If people want animals and somebody has to fix them, then why should a person who is trained to do it not charge a reasonable rate for doing it? Jon From: IN%"Dr.B.Schoening@t-online.de" 26-SEP-1999 03:57:15.86 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees Hi Jon and everybody who answered to the question of fees, this is a much discussed problem here in Germany as well. We have a proverb in germany which roughly translated goes like this: Things that are cheap are cheap This means: if you get something for cheap or even free, it is worth nothing. In my experience this is a big reason, why so many advice on dogs, dog behaviour or dog education is not taken seriously by the client - with the sometimes fatal results. When being an animal behaviourist, behavioural counsellor or animal trainer shall be regarded as a proper profession and the person doing it shall be regarded as a highly specialised professional - then charge for it because you are worth it. Some shelters here in germany do the fatal thing that people who take a dog from them, have half a year free of taxes and vet costs .... so after six months many dogs come back to the shelter or are disposed otherwise! People then suddenly notice, that dogs cost more money than just a bit of thrown away food each day. Did this help the animal? By the way: being a vet in germany, one cannot charge what one wants. We have a law about what amount of money we can charge for any medical treatment/diagnoses etc. For me as a behaviour counsellor and dog trainer this means a minimum of DM 116 per hour and I can go up to max. DM 348 per hour, if it is a difficult case. Barbara "Dr. Barbara Schöning "Fachtierärztin für Verhaltenskunde "Ulmenstr. 44, 22299 Hamburg Germany From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 26-SEP-1999 12:27:55.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied ethology" CC: Subj: behaviourist fees This is a multi-part message in MIME format. --Boundary_(ID_Nr8TBJbn6fIoHHHTgUyjDQ) Content-type: text/plain; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable my maths must be going a bit wonky... in the last email that should have been vets fees ranging from=20 =A384 to &240. whoops. JB --Boundary_(ID_Nr8TBJbn6fIoHHHTgUyjDQ) Content-type: text/html; charset="iso-8859-1" Content-transfer-encoding: quoted-printable
my maths must be going a bit wonky...
in the last email that should have been vets fees = ranging from=20
=A384 to &240.
 
whoops.
 
JB
--Boundary_(ID_Nr8TBJbn6fIoHHHTgUyjDQ)-- From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 26-SEP-1999 12:30:41.65 To: IN%"Dr.B.Schoening@t-online.de" "Dr. Barbara Schoening", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees I agree with Barbara, and would like to add that from my own experience clients are much more likely to complly with instructions if they have had to make a committment. I have had better responses to treatment since putting my fees up. JB From: IN%"kshapiro@CapAccess.org" "Kenneth Shapiro" 27-SEP-1999 06:01:03.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: CALL FOR PAPERS Journal of Applied Animal Welfare Science (JAAWS) JAAWS is issuing a call for papers. Conceived to promote the emerging field of animal welfare science, the goal of the journal is to publish articles and reports on methods of experimentation, husbandry, and care that demonstrably enhance the welfare of animals. Published on a quarterly basis, the first volume of JAAWS was published in 1998. Abstracts may be read at www.psyeta.org, under publications. We are now seeking manuscripts for the third volume. A coproject of the Association of Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and Psychologists for the Ethical Treatment of Animals, JAAWS is published by Lawrence E. Erlbaum. For administrative purposes, manuscripts are categorized in four broad areas of animal welfare science. Section Editors for the four content areas are: David B. Morton, Lab Animals Joy A. Mench, Farm Animals James A. Serpell, Companion Animals Marc Bekoff, Wildlife/Zoo Several types of manuscripts are accepted: Articles present new empirical data or a reevaluation of available data, or conceptual or theoretical analysis, and are up to 5000 words.Reports present scientific experiments or demonstrations relating to some issue of animal welfare science and are about 5000 words. Comments on earlier papers published in JAAWS, or on current issue relating to animal welfare science, policy issues, or the like are up to 2000 words. We also solicit book reviews and will publish announcments of pertinent forthcoming conferences. Send manuscripts and requests for subscription information to either of the coeditors: Kenneth J. Shapiro, PSYETA, P.O. Box 1297, Washington Grove, MD 20880. Send books for review and other correspondence to KJS - 301-963-4751 (telephone/fax), kshapiro@capaccess.org (email) or Stephen Zawistowski, ASPCA, 424 East 92nd St., New York, NY 10128. From: IN%"deethom@erols.com" "Dee Thompson" 27-SEP-1999 07:49:30.60 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees Fees are quite variable for behavior consultations...your gegraphic location, experience, education, references all affect your percieved value to your client. I have 13 years experience with birds, a very specialized background in working with them and a broad base of references. I get $50 in my market area, but this would double in LA or say, Aspen! By the time people call in a behavior consultant, they are seriously looking for help with a pet, and will pay for effective recommendations. Not a big market, perhaps, but it is out there, so good luck! There are people out there that do want help and will pay. References from past clients are your best source of new clients. Dee From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 27-SEP-1999 09:11:53.71 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: ecological (organic?) milk Hi, a few years ago I asked on this net for some details regarding the price and availability of ecological milk in Scandanavian countries. I would like to ask for this information again partly to see how the consumption of ecological milk has changed. Therefore I would be grateful if anyone can tell me 1. what percentage of milk produced is ecological milk 2. what percentage of milk sold in supermarkets is ecological milk 3. what is the relative price in supermarkets of ecological milk versus unecological (?) milk I would also be interested if you have any information about the consumption of other dairy products or pork products that are sold as = ecological or organic.=20 Although I am mainly interested in Nordic countries, I would be very interested in information from other countries. Thanks in advance Jeff Rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 27-SEP-1999 09:32:25.68 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: tail wagging Dear All, Sometime ago I posted a message that I had conducted a literature search on the subject of tail wagging. Several people asked for the references. Please find these below - apologies for the delay, I've been on holiday. Those of you not interested in animal tail-wagging might still like to look up reference number 4!!!! Regards, Chris Sherwin (1) TI: Chronic stress in dogs subjected to social and spatial restriction. I. Behavioral responses AU: Beerda_B, Schilder_MBH, VanHooff_JARAM, DeVries_HW, Mol_JA JN: PHYSIOLOGY & BEHAVIOR, 1999, Vol.66, No.2, pp.233-242 (2) TI: Behavioural and physiological responses of calves to dehorning by heat cauterization with or without local anaesthesia AU: Graf_B, Senn_M JN: APPLIED ANIMAL BEHAVIOUR SCIENCE, 1999, Vol.62, No.2-3, pp.153- 171 (3) TI: Tail wags dog? AU: Westfall_WL JN: SCIENCE, 1996, Vol.273, No.5275, p.561 (4) TI: UNITED CREWS NOTE TAIL WAG IN 777 JN: AVIATION WEEK & SPACE TECHNOLOGY, 1995, Vol.143, No.14, p.31 (5) TI: TAIL-WAGGING AS A TENSION RELIEF MECHANISM IN PITHECINES AU: FERNANDES_MEB JN: FOLIA PRIMATOLOGICA, 1993, Vol.61, No.1, pp.52-56 (6) TI: INTERPRETING SOCIAL-BEHAVIOR OF WOOD BISON USING TAIL POSTURES AU: KOMERS_PE, ROTH_K, ZIMMERLI_R JN: ZEITSCHRIFT FUR SAUGETIERKUNDE-INTERNATIONAL JOURNAL OF MAMMALIAN BIOLOGY, 1992, Vol.57, No.6, pp.343-350 (7) TI: ETHICS COMMITTEES - IS THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG AU: FURLER_J JN: MEDICAL JOURNAL OF AUSTRALIA, 1993, Vol.158, No.2, p.140 (8) TI: ETHICS COMMITTEES - IS THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG AU: BURNELL_RH JN: MEDICAL JOURNAL OF AUSTRALIA, 1993, Vol.158, No.2, p.140 et seq. (9) TI: ETHICS COMMITTEES - IS THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG - REPLY AU: JAMROZIK_K JN: MEDICAL JOURNAL OF AUSTRALIA, 1993, Vol.158, No.2, p.142 (10) TI: ETHICS COMMITTEES - IS THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG AU: DIAMOND_MR, REIDPATH_DD JN: MEDICAL JOURNAL OF AUSTRALIA, 1993, Vol.158, No.3, p.216 (11) TI: DO TAILS WAG DOGS AU: NASH_A, BARRIE_J, LITTLE_C JN: VETERINARY RECORD, 1993, Vol.132, No.12, p.307 (12) TI: ETHICS COMMITTEES - IS THE TAIL WAGGING THE DOG AU: JAMROZIK_K JN: MEDICAL JOURNAL OF AUSTRALIA, 1992, Vol.157, No.9, pp.636-637 (13) TI: A NOTE ON THE DEVELOPMENT OF BEHAVIOR OF INTENSIVELY MANAGED PIGLETS IN THE HUMID TROPICS AU: KABUGA_JD JN: ANIMAL PRODUCTION, 1992, Vol.54, No.Pt1, pp.157-159 (14) TI: POSTFLIGHT TAIL-WAGGING IN THE MALLARD AU: HAILMAN_JP, BAYLIS_JR JN: JOURNAL OF FIELD ORNITHOLOGY, 1991, Vol.62, No.2, pp.226-229 (15) TI: THE PURSUIT DETERRENT FUNCTION OF TAIL-WAGGING IN THE ZEBRA- TAILED LIZARD (CALLISAURUS-DRACONOIDES) AU: HASSON_O, HIBBARD_R, CEBALLOS_G JN: CANADIAN JOURNAL OF ZOOLOGY-REVUE CANADIENNE DE ZOOLOGIE, 1989, Vol.67, No.5, pp.1203-1209 (16) TI: TAIL-WAGGING BY ISABELLINE WHEATEAR AU: CATLEY_GP JN: BRITISH BIRDS, 1984, Vol.77, No.8, p.377 (17) TI: ELECTROCARDIOGRAM OF A TAIL WAG AU: FISHER_EW JN: VETERINARY RECORD, 1982, Vol.111, No.20, p.461 (18) TI: TAIL-WAGGING BY WHEATEARS AU: BUNDY_G JN: BRITISH BIRDS, 1982, Vol.75, No.8, p.387 (19) TI: TAIL-WAGGING BY ISABELLINE-WHEATEAR AU: CATLEY_GP JN: BRITISH BIRDS, 1981, Vol.74, No.10, p.443 **** End of Data **** --- End Forwarded Message --- ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"DebHdvm@aol.com" 27-SEP-1999 09:46:47.09 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees I have read with interest the discussion of fees for services from behaviorists. I am a board certified veterinary behaviorist here in the US. What I do is specialized and in the case of aggressive animals not without risks both in terms of myself and liability. I have spent time (and money) to educate myself about animal behavior, treatment modalities, the use of psychotropic drugs, studying and passing certifying examinations just to mention some of what I have done to become a behaviorist. My expertise certainly must have value. However, rather than get into an argument about that, I would like to add an interesting comment to the discussion. The other night I was with friends who were discussing having a furniture repair person come to fix a broken chair. The cost of the visit-without repair costs $40.00 (US). That was just to come to the home and look at a CHAIR. That does not even begin to pay for fixing the chair. This does not require any "history" taking (how the chair got broken), prognosis over the long term (will it never break again?), risk assessment or liability (what if you sit on the chair and fall to the floor?), differential diagnosis (is it really broken, or just a chair you think is broken?) just to mention a few areas that one might want to consider when you treat animal behavior problems. To say that persons who evaluate living things and then try to treat them deserve less that someone who fixes a chair is in my opinion unfair. If someone chooses not to treat their pet, (or their chair) that is a different issue. Because one person perceives something has little or no value does not mean it is worthless. Certainly some behavior advice may be better than others and should affect the cost, again that is another discussion. Debra F. Horwitz, DVM, DACVB Veterinary Behavior Consultations St. Louis, Missouri From: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda" 27-SEP-1999 11:20:45.78 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: ecological (organic?) milk Hi Jeff, see http://www.krav.se/IN.htm Here is a small extract which is relevant to your question, relative to Sweden: "The Swedish parliament in 1994 established the goal that 10 percent of the farmed land should be organically cultivated by the year 2000. Though we will probably not reach that goal, the establishment of such a defined goal has been of really good help to promote organic agriculture." (note also that the European commission has recently approved rules which will make more difficult to produce ecological goods, sadly) I don't look much at the price of the ecological products I buy, but it's not unreasonably higher than non-ecological products. I think milk is around 1 crown per liter more expensive (around 15%). I'm going to the supermarket now so I will be able to tell you tomorrow. Some random info follows. I read the following requirements for milk to be considered ecological by KRAV (the main association in Sweden): no artificial fertilizers used on the fields where cows graze, open hair grazing for 6 months per year, cows must live all their life in the same farm, calves cannot be separated from mothers before a given period (weaning?). I can find most food as ecological products in Sweden, e.g. cereals, bread and other wheat derivates, all green vegetables, bananas, even hamburgers and chicken. For chicken I know that a density of less then 7 chickens per square meter is required. Other meat is not so frequent but can be ordered in a supermarket chain. Hope it helps, Stefano Stefano Ghirlanda, Zoologiska Institutionen, Stockholms Universitet Office: D554, Arrheniusv. 14, S-106 91 Stockholm, Sweden Phone: +46 8 164055, Fax: +46 8 167715, Email: stefano@zool.su.se Support Free Science, look at: http://rerumnatura.zool.su.se From: IN%"elywolf@purdue.edu" "Mark Woodcock" 27-SEP-1999 12:02:46.73 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees Hi, Just a thought regarding the fees discussion. Certainly for owners who love their animals will be likely to pay to find a solution to their animals problem. Whether the person they pay the money too is qualified to do so is another question. However, I think this discussion started from an animal that was in a shelter at this time. Unless this shelter is out of the ordinary I would have to say that paying such fees is probably not going to be feasible unless someone donates for just that cause. Most shelters that I have experienced have a tough enough time trying to feed and look after the animals as it is, let alone spending hundreds of dollars for a behaviorist. Perhaps someone out there would be willing to donate some of their money, or their time in this case. Just a thought, Mark DebHdvm@aol.com wrote: > I have read with interest the discussion of fees for services from > behaviorists. I am a board certified veterinary behaviorist here in the US. > What I do is specialized and in the case of aggressive animals not without > risks both in terms of myself and liability. I have spent time (and money) to > educate myself about animal behavior, treatment modalities, the use of > psychotropic drugs, studying and passing certifying examinations just to > mention some of what I have done to become a behaviorist. My expertise > certainly must have value. However, rather than get into an argument about > that, I would like to add an interesting comment to the discussion. The other > night I was with friends who were discussing having a furniture repair person > come to fix a broken chair. The cost of the visit-without repair costs > $40.00 (US). That was just to come to the home and look at a CHAIR. That > does not even begin to pay for fixing the chair. This does not require any > "history" taking (how the chair got broken), prognosis over the long term > (will it never break again?), risk assessment or liability (what if you sit > on the chair and fall to the floor?), differential diagnosis (is it really > broken, or just a chair you think is broken?) just to mention a few areas > that one might want to consider when you treat animal behavior problems. To > say that persons who evaluate living things and then try to treat them > deserve less that someone who fixes a chair is in my opinion unfair. If > someone chooses not to treat their pet, (or their chair) that is a different > issue. Because one person perceives something has little or no value does > not mean it is worthless. Certainly some behavior advice may be better than > others and should affect the cost, again that is another discussion. > > Debra F. Horwitz, DVM, DACVB > Veterinary Behavior Consultations > St. Louis, Missouri From: IN%"serpell@vet.upenn.edu" "James Serpell" 27-SEP-1999 14:18:11.32 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: behaviourist fees Although I agree with Debra that much of the indecision and uncertainty about what to charge for behavior consultations arises from individual and cultural differences in the 'value' of pets, another factor may be the lack of reliable, published data on the effectiveness of behavioral therapy. There is an urgent need for independent, empirical evaluations of current treatment methods, and some people will continue to dismiss the whole practice as chicanery until such credible evidence is available for reference. Incidently, for those seeking professional validation, the paper "Evaluation of clomipramine as an adjunct to behavioural therapy in the treatment of separation-related problems in dogs" by Podberscek et al., in the latest (Sept. 25) issue of _The Veterinary Record_ provides exactly this kind of evidence (at least for behavioral therapy, though not for clomipramine). James Serpell, PhD ___________________________________________________________________ Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society, Dept. of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Tel: (215) 898-1004 3900 Delancey Street, Fax: (215) 573-6050 Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010, USA serpell@vet.upenn.edu http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/ From: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" 27-SEP-1999 16:11:06.17 To: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: tail wagging I don't know about the other articles listed by a similar title ("Tail wags dog," etc.), but the Science citation is not about tail wagging in the dog--the title is a metaphorical reference. Steve Lindsay Canine Behavioral Services Philadelpia, PA Chris Sherwin wrote: > Dear All, > > Sometime ago I posted a message that I had conducted a literature > search on the subject of tail wagging. Several people asked for the > references. Please find these below - apologies for the delay, I've > been on holiday. Those of you not interested in animal tail-wagging > might still like to look up reference number 4!!!! > > > (3) TI: Tail wags dog? > AU: Westfall_WL JN: SCIENCE, 1996, Vol.273, No.5275, p.561 > From: IN%"dreyn@sirius.com" "Donna Reynolds" 27-SEP-1999 16:35:55.65 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees While $95/hr may be more than most members of John Q. Public are willing to spend for behavior advice...I must point out that the majority of dog owners still look to their general veterinarian as the expert to help in difficult situations...not always to the dog's/family's benefit. We are a society that values the words of doctors in any form...whether they may be trained in animal behavior or not. And unfortunately, many vets still fall back on dispelling behavior remedies based on folklore. In the case of my $95.00 fee (I'm in SF bay area where standard of living is higher)...a family considering my deaf foster aussie for adoption was warned by their vet to not to adopt a deafie...His belief (without having seen the dog for an evaluation of his own) was that they were prone to aggression problems and would most certainly, "out of the blue" turn into a biter. I chose to "go above the vet's head" and hire a trained behaviorist to point out to the family what I already knew: that this animal showed no startle reactions or any other indications of possible aggression. (Along with this came advice on how to prevent common behavior problems) Until a realistic understanding of companion animal behavior can begin to trickle down into mainstream society (supported by knowledgeable veterinarians) animals are going to continue to suffer the fate of the overcrowded shelters, and the public will be left in the dark wondering why their Rover acts like a "bad dog". Donna Reynolds (PS - The deaf aussie is still available for adoption...Any US listers who might love the opportunity of a challenge and well earned bond with an incredible animal, don't be shy about contacting me!) . From: IN%"Bob.Kilgour@agric.nsw.gov.au" "Bob Kilgour" 27-SEP-1999 19:49:06.08 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: scaring cattle off railway tracks I've just had a request from someone of our railways department concerning getting cattle off railway tracks to prevent them being hit by an oncoming train. The way it is done now is for the engine driver to use the horn on the locomotive. However, they are looking for a means of warning the animals from a greater distance than the horn allows. In Australia we have a device that can be attached to a car that is supposed to give kangaroos early warning of the vehicle. When this thing is activated, humans can't hear it but kangaroos are supposed to. It might be possible to use the same principle on locomotives. However, despite the fact that there is a product on the market that is supposed to do the job, I would prefer better evidence than the manufacturer's claims. If anyone has done any work or knows of any work on the efficacy of such devices, I should be mighty grateful to hear of it. Yours sincerely, Bob Kilgour NSW Agriculture Agricultural Research Centre Trangie NSW 2823 Australia From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 27-SEP-1999 19:59:41.00 To: IN%"DottieDais@aol.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Behaviorist Fees I would go broke if I did teminal cases for free. I would guess that more than half of the cases I do are quite literally on death row; if they don't get better they die. Keeps my concentration level at peak. DBC On Sat, 25 Sep 1999 23:10:38 -0400 (EDT) DottieDais@aol.com writes: > Is this discussion of dog behaviorists' fees in response to R. Rodd's > email > concerning the dog with an anxiety disorder? I know behaviorists' > fees are > steep, but I hope this doesn't deter Ms. Rodd from seeking the > professional > assistance of one - especially one who may suggest alternatives > that haven't > already been tried. She said she is affiliated with an animal > welfare > concern and I know that often behaviorists will render their > services for > free if it means saving a dog's life. They do this all the time at > the San > Francisco shelter, thank goodness. > > Regards, > > Chris Hurley ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 27-SEP-1999 20:01:12.42 To: IN%"jkincaid@kawartha.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: behaviourist fees Would someone tell me how a discussion of fees came from my last post? Also, $100 per billable hour is near break even money for a professional practice. This is based on the fact that only about half of my professional time is billable. A standard veterinary practice must charge $250 - 300 per hour and more for billable hours for the same reason, plus there is so much more overhead in a regular practice. On Sat, 25 Sep 1999 09:30:53 -0400 John Kincaid writes: > Hi Deb; > No wonder there are so many maladjusted dogs! I would certainly > think > twice before paying that fee. > > John > > Deborah McWilliams wrote: > > > Hi everyone! > > A question that fits with Dr. Cameron's last posting and a > > friend's report that one hour service from an animal behaviourist > > cost $95.00: > > > > Would people refrain from using the services of a behaviourist > > because of the cost? > > > > Deb > > > > dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca > > > > Deborah A. McWilliams > > B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc > > > > Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph > > Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: IN%"orion1432@juno.com" "D. B. Cameron" 27-SEP-1999 20:01:12.42 To: IN%"serpell@vet.upenn.edu" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: behaviourist fees You might want to check out: Applied Animal Behavior Science 52 (1997) 265 - 274. DBC On Mon, 27 Sep 1999 16:17:47 -0400 (EDT) James Serpell writes: > Although I agree with Debra that much of the indecision and > uncertainty > about what to charge for behavior consultations arises from > individual and > cultural differences in the 'value' of pets, another factor may be > the lack > of reliable, published data on the effectiveness of behavioral > therapy. > There is an urgent need for independent, empirical evaluations of > current > treatment methods, and some people will continue to dismiss the > whole > practice as chicanery until such credible evidence is available for > reference. > > Incidently, for those seeking professional validation, the paper > "Evaluation of clomipramine as an adjunct to behavioural therapy in > the > treatment of separation-related problems in dogs" by Podberscek et > al., in > the latest (Sept. 25) issue of _The Veterinary Record_ provides > exactly > this kind of evidence (at least for behavioral therapy, though not > for > clomipramine). > > James Serpell, PhD > > ___________________________________________________________________ > Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, > Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society, > Dept. of Clinical Studies, > School of Veterinary Medicine, > University of Pennsylvania, Tel: (215) 898-1004 > 3900 Delancey Street, Fax: (215) 573-6050 > Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010, USA serpell@vet.upenn.edu > http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/ > > > > > ___________________________________________________________________ Get the Internet just the way you want it. Free software, free e-mail, and free Internet access for a month! Try Juno Web: http://dl.www.juno.com/dynoget/tagj. From: IN%"khkevan@brain.uccs.edu" "Kale H. McE. Kevan" 27-SEP-1999 21:41:34.74 To: IN%"ivryhavn@riverview.net" "Sheree Walters" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Position at Farm W/Elephants On Fri, 24 Sep 1999, Sheree Walters wrote: > Would anyone who might be interested in a full time position at private > farm in Michigan working with 1.1 African elephants please email me > privately and I will send you the full information about the position > available. > > This is a family run farm out on a dirt road in a small charming community > in West Michigan. We are not open to the public though the female elephant > does do educational programs and works off the farm about 30-35 days a year > to help complete the facility. The job offer is for room and board plus > some pay. The real reward is the opportunity to observe and interact on a > daily basis with the elephants. Wow. I'm very interested. Please, tell me the rest. Thanks! Kale. From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 27-SEP-1999 22:03:43.89 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca'" CC: Subj: RE: Paddle for the shore! Up on your surf boards everybody! Paddle shoreward without splashing. James may know these waters. James may be reckless. James may be very rich! I personally would hesitate to bleed the word "chicanery" into the sea were the Great Grey Lawyers lurk. I think they may be flicking along the reef at this very moment! When I noticed I had a toe in the Acknowledgements I was ashore in a twinkling. I used my Novartis presentation towel and had a coffee from the machine they sent me for Christmas. So .. er Goodbye Anthony, James and ...Oh my God has anyone seen David? You know ...David who did the behaviour for this paper. The same David who did the behaviour for the other paper. Oh my gosh" Cue that ominous music. Unsubscribing and leaving the Beach. Anonymous. -----Original Message----- From: James Serpell [SMTP:serpell@vet.upenn.edu] Sent: Monday, September 27, 1999 9:18 PM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: behaviourist fees Although I agree with Debra that much of the indecision and uncertainty about what to charge for behavior consultations arises from individual and cultural differences in the 'value' of pets, another factor may be the lack of reliable, published data on the effectiveness of behavioral therapy. There is an urgent need for independent, empirical evaluations of current treatment methods, and some people will continue to dismiss the whole practice as chicanery until such credible evidence is available for reference. Incidently, for those seeking professional validation, the paper "Evaluation of clomipramine as an adjunct to behavioural therapy in the treatment of separation-related problems in dogs" by Podberscek et al., in the latest (Sept. 25) issue of _The Veterinary Record_ provides exactly this kind of evidence (at least for behavioral therapy, though not for clomipramine). James Serpell, PhD ___________________________________________________________________ Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society, Dept. of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Tel: (215) 898-1004 3900 Delancey Street, Fax: (215) 573-6050 Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010, USA serpell@vet.upenn.edu http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/ From: IN%"Anders.Herlin@jbt.slu.se" "Anders Herlin" 28-SEP-1999 01:14:04.12 To: IN%"stefano@zool.su.se" "Stefano Ghirlanda", IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: ecological (organic?) milk Hi, here are some comments on organic milk production in Sweden. Swedish rules still allow cows to be kept in tie-stalls during the = winter period - in northern Sweden this is 10 months! the new EU directive on organic milk production states that cows should = be kept in loose-housing from 2011 - during a transition time until = then, cows kept in tie-stalls should be given regular exercise. The = meaing of regular exercise has caused some trouble to interpret - daily, = once a week, a month??? In northern Sweden where winters are hard - long = periods with e.g. -25 - - 40 degree C this is impossible to achieve - = the discussion now is to interpret the regular exercise as being a = prolonged grazing period - an extra 2 months - a very wide definition = of regular exercise!=20 Other problems that arise is the use of antibiotics. the rules says that = you should withheld milk for the double time than requested - this means = in practice that the organinc producers avoid to treat sick animals with = antibiotics (loose income) or treat with things that don't work - e.g. = homeopatics (of course - I do agree on using less antibiotics in = agriculture). If not using fertilizers would solve the question of leakage of plant = nutrients to the environment it would be very easy - however this is = not the case - but i will not discuss that more here! My conclusion is that Swedish organic milk production is not very = thrustworthy when claiming their production is more animal and = ecological friendly than the conventional.=20 Med v=E4nliga h=E4lsningar / Yours Sincerely Anders Herlin Dept. Agric. Biosystems and Technology Swedish University of Agricultural Sciences P.O. Box 59 S-230 53 Alnarp Sweden tel. +46 - (0)40 - 415219 fax +46 - (0)40 - 464241 home phone: +46 - (0)46 - 200809 Email: Anders.Herlin@jbt.slu.se http://allan.jbt.slu.se/anders.herlin From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 28-SEP-1999 02:00:09.18 To: IN%"slindsay@ix.netcom.com" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca", IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" Subj: RE: tail wagging Dear Steve, Apologies for this. The data base on which I ran the search would not give me abstracts for Science articles, therefore I could not check its relevancy. I felt it was better to include it for others to look up, (after all, it is a widely available journal) just incase it was relevant. On Mon, 27 Sep 1999 18:14:37 -0400 slindsay@ix.netcom.com wrote: > I don't know about the other articles listed by a similar title ("Tail wags > dog," etc.), but the Science citation is not about tail wagging in the > dog--the title is a metaphorical reference. > > Steve Lindsay > Canine Behavioral Services > Philadelpia, PA > > Chris Sherwin wrote: > > > Dear All, > > > > Sometime ago I posted a message that I had conducted a literature > > search on the subject of tail wagging. Several people asked for the > > references. Please find these below - apologies for the delay, I've > > been on holiday. Those of you not interested in animal tail-wagging > > might still like to look up reference number 4!!!! > > > > > > (3) TI: Tail wags dog? > > AU: Westfall_WL JN: SCIENCE, 1996, Vol.273, No.5275, p.561 > > > > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 28-SEP-1999 02:55:27.37 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group Posting" CC: Subj: Fw: ecological (organic) products Hi Jeff, We have a web page about organic products in the EU at: http://www.pighealth.com/News99/ORGANIC.HTM There is a major farming industry movement towards organic products underway over here at present. They can command double or triple the retail price of non-organic. Mike Meredith *=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*+=*+=* Dr. Michael Meredith, Managing Director Pig Disease Information Centre (PDIC) Email: meredith@farmline.com Website: http://www.PIGHEALTH.COM *=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=*=+=* -----Original Message----- >From: Jeff Rushen >To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >Date: 27 September 1999 16:19 >Subject: ecological (organic?) milk > > >Hi, > >a few years ago I asked on this net for some details regarding >the price and availability of ecological milk in Scandanavian >countries. > >I would like to ask for this information again partly to see how >the consumption of ecological milk has changed. Therefore >I would be grateful if anyone can tell me > >1. what percentage of milk produced is ecological milk >2. what percentage of milk sold in supermarkets is ecological milk >3. what is the relative price in supermarkets of ecological milk >versus unecological (?) milk > >I would also be interested if you have any information about >the consumption of other dairy products or pork products that are sold as >ecological or organic. > >Although I am mainly interested in Nordic countries, I would be >very interested in information from other countries. > >Thanks in advance > >Jeff Rushen > >************************************************** >Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. >Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, >Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, >PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, >Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 >Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 >Fax. 1-819-5645507 >Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca >************************************************** From: IN%"rr25@cus.cam.ac.uk" "R. Rodd" 28-SEP-1999 03:14:16.29 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: behaviourist fees (and update on dog behaviour problem) Very many thanks to everyone who offered advice, and in particular to Robin Walker, who was kind enough to discuss treatment with our vet without asking for a fee. Robin has suggested we assume the underlying problem is that Zeus the dog in question is subject to panic attacks which are triggered by various frightening things, but are not really either phobias or separation anxiety (so desensitisation reduces the fear of some events, but the panic attacks simply transfer to something else). There are drugs to treat this which are used in human medicine but are not commonly used for animals, and since we have never tried treating Zeus with them it seems well worth giving it a go. We are also trying to follow up various other suggestions to make the kennel environment less stressful. Thanks again. Rosemary ---------------------------------------- Rosemary Rodd Literary & Linguistic Computing Centre Sidgwick Avenue, Cambridge CB3 9DA 01223 335029 From: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" 28-SEP-1999 04:28:39.62 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: rules circuses Our dept. is helping the Ghent city council drawing up animal welfare norms circuses will have to comply with in order to get permission to present a show. M.Kiley's book is very helpful and there are some publications on management in the recent literature. However, we'd like to gather information on eventual similar rules elswhere, be it at the city level or the national level. Can somebody inform us about such laws? Thank you! Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg Faculty of Veterinary Medicine Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology Heidestraat 19 B-9820 Merelbeke tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 28-SEP-1999 06:34:10.19 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: operant training Dear All, Does anyone have a reference for work in which birds (preferably galliformes) are trained to perform an operant task (prefereably key pecking) when the reinforcement is a favoured food type, but the birds are NOT chronically hungry, i.e. they might be food deprived for only a couple of hours. This request is specific for birds because I suspect their alimentary tract is sufficiently different from other vertebrates to have considerable bearing on the subject. Any information would be greatly appreciated. My thanks in advance, Chris ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk From: IN%"sbc@kvl.dk" "Stine B Christiansen" 28-SEP-1999 06:40:10.43 To: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: ecological (organic?) milk -Svar Hi Jeff, The answers to your questions regarding Denmark are: 1. what percentage of milk produced is ecological milk: - In '98 it was 4,1 %, but the market has been increasing since then. For = September '99 it is approx. 7,5 %, an estimate for the '99 average is 6 %. = No further increase is expected, though. At the moment a lot of the = ecological milk is mixed with normal milk (and sold as such), as the = consumer demand for ecological milk has not increased similarly. 2. what percentage of milk sold in supermarkets is ecological milk: 22 % of the milk is ecological. For youghurts it's approx. 9 %, cheese and = butter approx. 2-3 %. 3. what is the relative price in supermarkets of ecological milk versus unecological (?) milk: The ecological milk is approx. 15 - 20 % more expensive. Hope this is helpful to you. If you gather the information on this topic = in any written form, I'd be happy to receive a copy. Yours sincerely, Stine Stine B. Christiansen D.V.M., MSc scientific secretary, research assistant The Danish Ethical Council concerning Animals The Royal Veterinary and Agricultural University Gr=F8nneg=E5rdsvej 8 1870 Frederiksberg C Copenhagen=20 Denmark phone: (+45) 3528 3075 fax: (+45) 3528 3022 email: sbc@kvl.dk From: IN%"deethom@erols.com" "Dee Thompson" 28-SEP-1999 07:27:02.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: PS: operant training Obviously I meant food as the reward so P is not the letter of choice! the site to start with on bird training is: http://www.geocities.com/Heartland/Acres/9154/ The list is very chatty, but the site gives you what you need to get started. From: IN%"LilleBird@aol.com" 28-SEP-1999 08:44:28.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Rupert Sheldrake Any opinions on Sheldrake? He is speaking in NYC Thursday. He's written "Dogs that Know When their Owners Are Coming Home-and other unexplained powers of animals" elaine buchsbaum lilleird@aol.com From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 28-SEP-1999 12:27:42.59 To: IN%"LilleBird@aol.com" "'LilleBird@aol.com'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Rupert Sheldrake Elaine, Anthony Podberscek wrote this to the Ethology Group on Fri, 24/10/1997 under the title of "Re: Future Telling Dog". "Hi all, For those interested in obtaining the full story about Jaytee, the psychic dog, should contact the researcher, Dr Rupert Sheldrake at: 20 Willow Road, London, NW3 1TJ, UK. Rupert has given two talks at Cambridge University over the past year and I must say his work is very interesting. Contrary to popular opinion, he is using SCIENTIFIC methods for his research. Those of you interested in reading about Rupert's other ideas for research into the psychic powers of animals should read his book 'Seven experiments that could change the world' (1994, Fourth Estate). Robin Walker says there is a big divide between science and crystal balls - true, but surely most people acknowledge that science is merely a smokescreen used to prevent or subdue creative and innovative thought? Well, that's what I think anyway. I say 'bravo' to anyone who challenges the safe haven of science. Now to evaporate into e-space. Anthony Podberscek" Since his de-evaporation Anthony has become the rigorous scientist of whom James Serpell says:- "There is an urgent need for independent, empirical evaluations of current treatment methods, and some people will continue to dismiss the whole practice as chicanery until such credible evidence is available for reference. Incidentally, for those seeking professional validation, the paper "Evaluation of clomipramine as an adjunct to behavioural therapy in the treatment of separation-related problems in dogs" by Podberscek et al., in the latest (Sept. 25) issue of The Veterinary Record_ provides exactly this kind of evidence (at least for behavioral therapy, though not for clomipramine)." I have no opinions about all this - merely slight confusion! Robin -----Original Message----- From: LilleBird@aol.com [SMTP:LilleBird@aol.com] Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 3:44 PM To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: Rupert Sheldrake Any opinions on Sheldrake? He is speaking in NYC Thursday. He's written "Dogs that Know When their Owners Are Coming Home-and other unexplained powers of animals" elaine buchsbaum lilleird@aol.com From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "appleby" 28-SEP-1999 16:33:10.75 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Paddle for the shore! In article <01BF096E.92911F20@s59.pool.pm3-tele-1.cix.co.uk>, Robin Walker writes >So .. er Goodbye Anthony, James and ...Oh my God has anyone seen >David? You know ...David who did the behaviour for this paper. The same David >who did the behaviour for the other paper. Oh my gosh" Hi, Here I am! I think there are three things to consider here. The paper referred to as "this" discusses a pilot study for the study discussed in the paper referred to as "the other". The inclusion and exclusion criteria applied to the second study ("the other" paper) made the sample tested more specific than. Thirdly, the behavioural treatment for the study referred to in "this" paper was a four stage programme while the behaviour programme for the study reported in "the other" paper was one stage. Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 28-SEP-1999 20:15:54.58 To: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "'Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: rules circuses Frank The Queensland Department for Primary Industries for whom I work has published a Code of Practice for the Welfare of Animals in Circuses (for Qld, although it is hoped other States will adopt the Code). I can mail (snail) you a copy if you are interested. Carol Petherick > -----Original Message----- > From: Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be [SMTP:Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be] > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 10:30 PM > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: rules circuses > > Our dept. is helping the Ghent city council drawing up animal > welfare norms circuses will have to comply with in order to get > permission to present a show. M.Kiley's book is very helpful and > there are some publications on management in the recent literature. > However, we'd like to gather information on eventual similar rules > elswhere, be it at the city level or the national level. Can somebody > inform us about such laws? > Thank you! > > > > Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg > Faculty of Veterinary Medicine > Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology > Heidestraat 19 > B-9820 Merelbeke > tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 > fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 28-SEP-1999 21:13:02.50 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: Livestock handling All I've just returned from attending a Bud Williams Livestock Handling School and am feeling confused and 'uncomfortable' with what was demonstrated. The claims that Bud made of things he (and others using his method) could achieve have challenged things that I've learned about in animal behaviour for the last 25+ years. Perhaps somebody can explain them in ways that aren't counter-intuitive and counter-animal behaviour how they work. The basic principles that Bud operates by is applying and releasing "pressure" on animals by entering and exiting their flight zone. The distance and angle that the person (on foot, horse, motorbike) is from the animal is critical in getting movement in the desired direction. The aim is to move animals and get them so "they want to go" rather than being forced by fear. As a result the animals are calm during the moving process. The principles work on individuals or groups and with docile or wild animals. I don't have any problems with this, but it's what this method can achieve that I find hard to explain to myself in a logical, animal behaviour way! Bud claims that it is possible to bring together lots of sub-groups of animals (cattle/sheep/reindeer/bison/goats - he's done it with these species and more) and drive them to an area of unfenced pasture and that they will stay as a single mob (up to thousands of animals) and not stray from that area until they run short of food. He can go back a few days later, drive them to another spot and they'll stay there and so on. He also says he can put them in a waterless area of rank grass and to drink the animals have to cross good pasture. The animals will drink and return to and graze the rank grass - not the palatable stuff. They will continue to do this until they are driven elsewhere (or run out of food). He also claims that animals that are given a "bad time" in the yards, or that are totally wild can be made to work through yards well the next time they come through simply by a working them by his method out in the paddock - and just for a few hours over a few days. I don't believe this man is a charlatan - he has a big following and he and others tell me it works (I want to see if I can get it to work for me too!), but these claims just don't seem to make sense - I believed that animals would choose palatable over non-palatable pasture when given the choice (hence the reason paddocks are over-grazed in some areas and under-used in others) and I thought animals given a hard time in yards would remember and be resistant the next time. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how these things work? Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au tel: (0)7 4923 8200 fax: (0)7 4923 8222 From: IN%"Ksmuts@sarcc.co.za" "Kristene Smuts" 29-SEP-1999 00:51:09.48 To: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling Hello List I have been lurking since I joined and would like to respond to this mail. >>The basic principles that Bud operates by is applying and releasing "pressure" on animals by entering and exiting their flight zone. The distance and angle that the person (on foot, horse, motorbike) is from the animal is critical in getting movement in the desired direction. The aim = is to move animals and get them so "they want to go" rather than being forced by fear.>> I am also part of a list for Natural Horsmanship (NH) and am in the = beginning stages of practicing this way of dealing with horses. The = principle that is described here is what is the basis for the NH way of = dealing with horses. Pressure the horse into doing what you want the = horse to do because the dynamics of the herd works that way - role of the = lead mare etc. Pressure does NOT mean pain or abuse, but simply how your = body and even facial expressions can help in communicating with the horse. If you want to read more about this, please go to the web page www.orednet.= org/~rroll/nhindx.htm There is a ring for going to other sites as well. Hope this helps. Have a good day Kristene From: IN%"mvclib@giasmd01.vsnl.net.in" "mvclib" 29-SEP-1999 01:03:03.47 To: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" CC: IN%"Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be" "'Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: rules circuses Dear Sir, Could you please send a copy of the Code of practice for our library use so that our students and graduates will be benefited. Thanks in advance. G.R.Sabapathy Asst. Librarian Madras Veterinary College TN Veterinary & Animal Sciences University Chennai-7, India Petherick, Carol (TBC) wrote: > Frank > The Queensland Department for Primary Industries for whom I work has > published a Code of Practice for the Welfare of Animals in Circuses > (for > Qld, although it is hoped other States will adopt the Code). I can > mail > (snail) you a copy if you are interested. > Carol Petherick > > > -----Original Message----- > > From: Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be [SMTP:Frank.Odberg@rug.ac.be] > > Sent: Tuesday, September 28, 1999 10:30 PM > > To: Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > > Subject: rules circuses > > > > Our dept. is helping the Ghent city council drawing up animal > > welfare norms circuses will have to comply with in order to get > > permission to present a show. M.Kiley's book is very helpful and > > there are some publications on management in the recent literature. > > However, we'd like to gather information on eventual similar rules > > elswhere, be it at the city level or the national level. Can > somebody > > inform us about such laws? > > Thank you! > > > > > > > > Prof.Dr.F.O.OEdberg > > Faculty of Veterinary Medicine > > Department of Animal Nutrition, Genetics, Production and Ethology > > Heidestraat 19 > > B-9820 Merelbeke > > tel: +32-(0)9-2647804 > > fax: +32-(0)9-2647849 From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 29-SEP-1999 02:05:29.30 To: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "'Petherick, Carol (TBC)'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling All A thought or two on "Predatory Pressure" Bud makes "predatory" moves at low intensity. Ungulates make prey responses at low intensity Ungulates move to where Bud/Predator is not. Safety zone is where Bud/Predator is Missing. Thirst takes ungulates from safety zone to water on a gradient of approach /avoidance where thirst prevails. Satiety with water lets ungulates escape back to safety zone as the memory of fear prevails. Crossing good grass is a herd imperative as Bud/predator WAS here. Ungulates remember where Bud was NOT and relax in safety zone. Question 1. How many "mutineers/non-conformists" need to stop and try good grass in danger zone in order to nullify the herd/minnow effect? {Just as one might ask how many people in an elevator need obstinately to face the "wrong/non-group" way before the mechanics of conformity breakdown] Opportunity for personality of ungulate study Question 2. Do ungulates remember that particular area of long grass whence lions emerged? For how long? Opportunity for a vacation. Question 3. Is it the intensity of the predation training that carries the "herd" into the aversive areas of yard etc as a unit? Welfare/military issue. It all rings bells of Stalking horses and the Army for me! Verdict. Bud highly plausible. Veracity of detail highly elastic (as ever). Most interesting opportunity for "Science" Robin -----Original Message----- From: Petherick, Carol (TBC) [SMTP:PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 4:12 AM To: 'ethology' Subject: Livestock handling All I've just returned from attending a Bud Williams Livestock Handling School and am feeling confused and 'uncomfortable' with what was demonstrated. The claims that Bud made of things he (and others using his method) could achieve have challenged things that I've learned about in animal behaviour for the last 25+ years. Perhaps somebody can explain them in ways that aren't counter-intuitive and counter-animal behaviour how they work. The basic principles that Bud operates by is applying and releasing "pressure" on animals by entering and exiting their flight zone. The distance and angle that the person (on foot, horse, motorbike) is from the animal is critical in getting movement in the desired direction. The aim is to move animals and get them so "they want to go" rather than being forced by fear. As a result the animals are calm during the moving process. The principles work on individuals or groups and with docile or wild animals. I don't have any problems with this, but it's what this method can achieve that I find hard to explain to myself in a logical, animal behaviour way! Bud claims that it is possible to bring together lots of sub-groups of animals (cattle/sheep/reindeer/bison/goats - he's done it with these species and more) and drive them to an area of unfenced pasture and that they will stay as a single mob (up to thousands of animals) and not stray from that area until they run short of food. He can go back a few days later, drive them to another spot and they'll stay there and so on. He also says he can put them in a waterless area of rank grass and to drink the animals have to cross good pasture. The animals will drink and return to and graze the rank grass - not the palatable stuff. They will continue to do this until they are driven elsewhere (or run out of food). He also claims that animals that are given a "bad time" in the yards, or that are totally wild can be made to work through yards well the next time they come through simply by a working them by his method out in the paddock - and just for a few hours over a few days. I don't believe this man is a charlatan - he has a big following and he and others tell me it works (I want to see if I can get it to work for me too!), but these claims just don't seem to make sense - I believed that animals would choose palatable over non-palatable pasture when given the choice (hence the reason paddocks are over-grazed in some areas and under-used in others) and I thought animals given a hard time in yards would remember and be resistant the next time. Does anybody have any suggestions as to how these things work? Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au tel: (0)7 4923 8200 fax: (0)7 4923 8222 From: IN%"joseph.barber@zoo.ox.ac.uk" 29-SEP-1999 03:53:15.82 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling Dear All, I also have some questions about this topic (along a similar line to Robin's)... 1) would the presence of a predator in a specific area be enough to prevent a herd of herbivores from utilizing a high quality food source in that area, even without experience of what the predator actually does? I know individuals can show fearful responses to specific areas after vigorous handling treatments in those areas. But if animals are avoiding specifc areas because the have seen a predator there, then pretty soon they will run out of areas to feed in, won't they? I know very little about livestock, but it would seem to me that the benefits of a high quality food would outweigh the possible risks of a predator without teeth, if you like. Wouldn't habituation to just the presence of a predator occur? It would seem, then, as if the livestock are behaving in a 'superstitious' way, believing that areas must be avoided because of the sighting of a predator. Now I know making comparisons between wild and domestic animals is dangerous, but I can't get the image of various herbivores continuing to feed in the vicinity of a lion eating another herbivore (in the Serengeti for example) out of my mind. In associative learning, one associates a particular stimulus with either a pleasurable or painful 'reward'. Cattle may associate the yard with a painful handling technique. I do not see what association the livestock are making to make them behave so helpfully in this case. 2) wouldn't the fluidic nature of a social group, caused by mechanisms such as behavioural synchrony and social facilitation, counter-act aspects of the method of handling described? As Robin suggested, all it would take is a few individuals to start eating the good grass to affect the behaviour of the entire herd 3) would it work with chickens? I'm just rambling, but I am interested in the mechanisms involved in the method described. So if anyone has any thoughts, please let me know. Joe ===== Joseph Barber Zoology Department, University of Oxford, South Parks Road, Oxford, OX1 3PS Tel: 01865 271217 E-mail: joseph.barber@zoo.ox.ac.uk __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Bid and sell for free at http://auctions.yahoo.com From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 29-SEP-1999 04:52:23.20 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group Posting" CC: Subj: RE: Rupert Sheldrake >Rupert has given two talks at Cambridge University over the past year and I >must say his work is very interesting. Contrary to popular opinion, he is >using SCIENTIFIC methods for his research. I was at one of those talks, and very fascinated and impressed. Rupert seemed to be sincerely seeking rational scientific explanations for the baffling phenomena which he had carefully investigated and which seemed to defy rational explantions. Unfortunately he has had great difficulties in getting his work published or taken seriously by the scientific establishment. The latter has of course a long history of incidents of narrow-minded rejection and repression of radically new work - the "shadow" side of the precious "healthy scepticism" coin! Mike From: IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com" "Chris Redenbach" 29-SEP-1999 08:07:33.78 To: IN%"joseph.barber@zoo.ox.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling I suspect that there is more going on than just avoiding a predator. Bud may have figured out a way to "train" or "condition" a new and more limited movement pattern in the group by the way he repeats the application and release of pressure. It seems plausible that pretty quickly, when the whole group is responding, that there would be a temporary change in group movement patterns once the new pattern has been adopted by the whole group. This could be accomplished through the application and removal of pressure from all angles around the group...a sort of herding at a sophisticated level. I'm sorry, it is difficult to make this clear. If I am a member of a group and I personally and all of my group members respond in a similar manner to pressure by moving. We then respond by relaxing in a comfort zone when the pressure to move stops. If this happens over and over, whichever direction we turn, and we are all doing it, and it begins to become a very safe pattern, then we will tend to continue to do it because it always leaves us feeling comfortable, until some other force comes along with enough attraction or repulsion to get one and then several of us doing something else. The fact that we have all learned this in a group at one time creates an internal reinforcement to conform to the pattern. Carol, didn't you ask Bud how it works? If so, what did he say? Chris Redenbach Chris From: IN%"DMCWILLIAMS@APS.UoGuelph.CA" "Deborah McWilliams" 29-SEP-1999 08:37:42.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling Hi! Chris said: > I suspect that there is more going on than just avoiding a predator. > Bud may have figured out a way to "train" or "condition" a new and more > limited movement pattern In human social psychology, there is the phenomena of "comfort zones". Basically, we all have our "comfort zones" and will retreat and approach other individuals or groups according to that comfort zone. The size of an individual's "comfort zone" may include factors including species, culture and individual conscious and unconscious factors (integral and experiential). You can get people to move in the same way as Bud (and let's not forget Temple Grandin) move animals. On first appearance, working with people like this would seem advantageous because they could TELL you what they are experiencing. However, it is probably unlikely because most people's comfort zones appear based on "gut reaction" and "feelings". Deb dmcwilliams@aps.uoguelph.ca Deborah A. McWilliams B.A. (Honours Psychology), MSc Animal and Poultry Science, University of Guelph Guelph, ON, Canada, N1G 2X7 From: IN%"c.j.nicol@bristol.ac.uk" 29-SEP-1999 09:01:52.21 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: Veterinary vacancy in welfare/ethics We are looking for a veterinary graduate to take up a scholarship in farm animal welfare at the University of Bristol. The candidate must be willing to apply for membership of the Royal College and would be encouraged to train for the Certificate (or Diploma) in Animal Welfare Ethics and Law. As part of this training you will be expected to undertake a research project for which we will provide first-rate supervision. You will work alongside a strong research group in applied animal behaviour as well as gaining further clinical experience with an expanding and innovative University farm animal practice. The person appointed would be expected to do some teaching - particularly in welfare-related areas and (with help) to organise a short course for vet students on animal ethics. The post is available for a period of 3 years with a tax free stipend of between 12500 and 14200 pounds. Shared single rent-free accomodation may also be available. Closing date is 15 October 1999. Potential applicants are welcome to contact me. ---------------------- Christine Nicol Division of Animal Health and Husbandry Department of Clinical Veterinary Science Langford House Langford North Somerset BS40 5DU Tel 0117 928 9473 Fax 0117 928 9582 Email: c.j.nicol@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 29-SEP-1999 09:35:58.76 To: IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com" "'Chris Redenbach'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling I think we are saying exactly the same thing here. There is more than avoidance concerned with avoiding a predator. The "more" I would describe as the cumulative effect of many experiences of the reinforcement that relief from the pressure brings. The individual is shaped into group movement and the conspecifics become the stimulus binders that control the response. Just as the drug addict is powerfully affected by the mere sight of the paraphernalia of his addiction so the ungulate is controlled by sensations conditional upon the movement (or non movement) of others in the vicinity. For me the potency of cumulative reward has its most graphic illustration in the anorexic who (as I understand it) has arrived at pure addiction to the oppositional chemistry of starvation by a process of repetitive and at first moderate fasting periods. The growndswell of emotion in the social group is a profoundly addictive social affect that is organised by a neurochemistry in which opioid mechanisms are very strongly represented. Robin . -----Original Message----- From: Chris Redenbach [SMTP:arioncr@mindspring.com] Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 3:07 PM To: joseph.barber@zoo.ox.ac.uk; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Subject: RE: Livestock handling I suspect that there is more going on than just avoiding a predator. Bud may have figured out a way to "train" or "condition" a new and more limited movement pattern in the group by the way he repeats the application and release of pressure. It seems plausible that pretty quickly, when the whole group is responding, that there would be a temporary change in group movement patterns once the new pattern has been adopted by the whole group. This could be accomplished through the application and removal of pressure from all angles around the group...a sort of herding at a sophisticated level. I'm sorry, it is difficult to make this clear. If I am a member of a group and I personally and all of my group members respond in a similar manner to pressure by moving. We then respond by relaxing in a comfort zone when the pressure to move stops. If this happens over and over, whichever direction we turn, and we are all doing it, and it begins to become a very safe pattern, then we will tend to continue to do it because it always leaves us feeling comfortable, until some other force comes along with enough attraction or repulsion to get one and then several of us doing something else. The fact that we have all learned this in a group at one time creates an internal reinforcement to conform to the pattern. Carol, didn't you ask Bud how it works? If so, what did he say? Chris Redenbach Chris From: IN%"serpell@vet.upenn.edu" "James Serpell" 29-SEP-1999 09:49:38.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling/Sheldrake I hesitate to raise the tedious and restricting spectre of 'science' in this discussion, but has anyone attempted an independent experimental evaluation of Bud's more intriguing claims? If not, how can we possibly know whether his achievements are real? Even looking for theoretical explanations for untoward anecdotal observations strikes me as premature. Bud can submit his methods to empirical study. If the findings bear out his claims, then we can start looking for explanatory hypotheses. Whatever happened to healthy skepticism? And while we're on the subject, the problem with Rupert Sheldrake is that he sets out to prove that paranormal phenomena exist BECAUSE such findings would reinforce his controversial, quasi-religious theory of 'formative causation' (first published in 1981). This inherent bias in his approach to scientific investigation cannot help but raise valid suspicions, even if he truly believes that his experimental procedures are impartial. I might add that his inability to get his work published in peer-reviewed journals should also raise valid suspicions (unless, of course, one is a conspiracy theorist). James ___________________________________________________________________ Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society, Dept. of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Tel: (215) 898-1004 3900 Delancey Street, Fax: (215) 573-6050 Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010, USA serpell@vet.upenn.edu http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/ From: IN%"rushenj@EM.AGR.CA" "Jeff Rushen" 29-SEP-1999 09:49:42.26 To: IN%"meredith@farmline.com", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Rupert Sheldrake >>> Michael Meredith 09/29 6:31 am=20 Unfortunately he has had great difficulties in getting his work published = or taken seriously by the scientific establishment. The latter has of = course a long history of incidents of narrow-minded rejection and = repression of radically new work >>>> "Of course", no need to give any actual examples. Beware the Columbus fallacy: "They laughed at Columbus and he was right. They are laughing at Sheldrake, therefore he must be right". "Science" (defined as the consensus opinion of scientists who know something about the subject) very occassionally makes some spectacular= goofs (like refusing to believe continental drift).=20 However, scientific consensus is far more often right than wrong (as witnessed by the existence of CD players that play CDs, bridges that stay standing, rockets that go up and come down in the right place, and drugs that kill bugs). If the scientific=20 consensus is that Sheldrake is wrong, then it is far more likely that he is wrong than that he is right (although not 100%). There is nothing mysterious about science. It is just a mental attitude that where beliefs and reality conflict, it is better to change beliefs than to deny reality. For some reasons, this gives some people much difficulty. I find it a useful rule to be highly skeptical of anything that looks, sounds or smells like "wish fulfillment". Telephatic pets that save us the trouble of trying to figure out how to actually=20 communicate with them conforms to too many human fantasies for my liking, and therefore seems to belong to the same category as = sexual abduction by aliens, communication with a dead loved one, and a "just" God who zaps Slobodan Milosevich and all the other nasties who always seem to get away in real = life. I am more impressed by people who make the intellectual effort and try to = understand dogs as dogs, rather than trying to make them fulfill our = fantasies. I have read a few second hand reports of Sheldrake's=20 experiments. One claim of his is that dogs left at home can tell when their owners are about to return, and will start to wait at the door or stare out at the window at the appropriate time. An experiment to test this would need to ensure that the owner was not just coming home at the regular time, since dogs are probably quite capable of learning the average duration of absences. I understand Sheldrake does control for this in that he asks owners to come home at irregular times. Secondly, you would need to have an appropriate "control" situation. A dog left alone will make many visits to the door and windows, and as the day goes on and he becomes more lonely and hungry the = number of visits will increase. Therefore you would expect to find more visits to the door or window around the time when the owner returns than earlier in the day. I do not believe that Sheldrake adequately controls for such factors (can anyone correct me?)=20 Third, the person watching the dog would need to be blind as to=20 the time of the return. Dogs will go to the door and window for many = reasons. An observer who knows when the owner returns could unwittingly (or wittingly) dismiss visits at inappropriate times as due to "some other reason". I understand (from the report in the New Scientist) that this is a major problem with Sheldrake's experiments. An independent observer was unable to agree with Sheldrake on what defined a "visit" and how many visits actually occurred! = Ideally the observer would not know when the owner actually returned. Jeff Rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com" "Chris Redenbach" 29-SEP-1999 10:18:06.41 To: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling >I think we are saying exactly the same thing here. Robin, I think we are too. Please explain, on the level of function you are working at, how the intensity of the relief varies. I know that the pressure can be applied using a variety of signs that elicit an avoidance response. One isolated little bit of a sign would cause the animals to move away, but not for long or for far. Increase this isolated sign and you may get a stronger response. Combine this sign with others and vary the intensity and the response should theoretically be still stronger. A keen knowledge of how to apply those varoius sign elements of pressure, all done with individual attention, at a level just below that which would cause panic, and then suddenly alleviated, causing immense relief, could be a very powerful tool that might produce the learning of new patterns quickly. When this is repeated a number of times in a brief time, the social cohesion would be supported greatly by this kind of immense relief. My guess is that the social dynamic created and the staying power of the patterns developed would be way different than what would be caused by pressure applied at the customary and intermittant level at which natural predation would occur. But we would have to know how Bud actually does this before supposing too much. Chris At 04:19 PM 09/29/1999 +0100, you wrote: > >I think we are saying exactly the same thing here. There is more than >avoidance concerned with avoiding a predator. The "more" I would >describe as the cumulative effect of many experiences of the reinforcement >that relief from the pressure brings. The individual is shaped into group >movement and the conspecifics become the stimulus binders that control the >response. Just as the drug addict is powerfully affected by the mere sight >of the paraphernalia of his addiction so the ungulate is controlled by >sensations conditional upon the movement (or non movement) of others >in the vicinity. For me the potency of cumulative reward has its most >graphic illustration in the anorexic who (as I understand it) has arrived >at pure addiction to the oppositional chemistry of starvation by a >process of repetitive and at first moderate fasting periods. > >The growndswell of emotion in the social group is a profoundly >addictive social affect that is organised by a neurochemistry >in which opioid mechanisms are very strongly represented. > >Robin >. >-----Original Message----- >From: Chris Redenbach [SMTP:arioncr@mindspring.com] >Sent: Wednesday, September 29, 1999 3:07 PM >To: joseph.barber@zoo.ox.ac.uk; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca >Subject: RE: Livestock handling > >I suspect that there is more going on than just avoiding a predator. > >Bud may have figured out a way to "train" or "condition" a new and more >limited movement pattern in the group by the way he repeats the application >and release of pressure. It seems plausible that pretty quickly, when the >whole group is responding, that there would be a temporary change in group >movement patterns once the new pattern has been adopted by the whole group. > >This could be accomplished through the application and removal of pressure >from all angles around the group...a sort of herding at a sophisticated level. > >I'm sorry, it is difficult to make this clear. > >If I am a member of a group and I personally and all of my group members >respond in a similar manner to pressure by moving. We then respond by >relaxing in a comfort zone when the pressure to move stops. If this happens >over and over, whichever direction we turn, and we are all doing it, and it >begins to become a very safe pattern, then we will tend to continue to do >it because it always leaves us feeling comfortable, until some other force >comes along with enough attraction or repulsion to get one and then several >of us doing something else. The fact that we have all learned this in a >group at one time creates an internal reinforcement to conform to the pattern. > > >Carol, didn't you ask Bud how it works? If so, what did he say? > >Chris Redenbach > > > >Chris > > Chris From: IN%"serpell@vet.upenn.edu" "James Serpell" 29-SEP-1999 10:38:39.31 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Paddle for the shore! Some further clarification on David Appleby's statement that: >The paper referred to as "this" discusses a pilot study for the study >discussed in the paper referred to as "the other". This is grossly misleading. It was an independent clinical trial. It was only a pilot in the sense that it preceded the other trials. >The inclusion and exclusion criteria applied to the second study ("the >other" paper) made the sample tested more specific than. David needs to be more explicit than this. In what way was it more specific? >Thirdly, the behavioural treatment for the study referred to in "this" >paper was a four stage programme while the behaviour programme for the >study reported in "the other" paper was one stage. Again, David should explain the relevance/importance of this difference, since it seems to imply some criticism of the Podberscek et al. study design. James Serpell ___________________________________________________________________ Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society, Dept. of Clinical Studies, School of Veterinary Medicine, University of Pennsylvania, Tel: (215) 898-1004 3900 Delancey Street, Fax: (215) 573-6050 Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010, USA serpell@vet.upenn.edu http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/ From: IN%"rondog@btinternet.com" "JB" 29-SEP-1999 11:10:08.10 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling As far as I can see the best explanation is that provided by Robin. The method being used is similar to that currently in vogue for use with horses. I agree that the explanation needs further refinements and testing. What i do object to is the implication that any of these methods avoid fear or cruelty, which is twaddle. There may be less fear involved in this method than others, but how can we say? For example, certain 'humane' trainers in the States will chase horses for many miles, harassing them until they are able to 'join up' with them. If the semi-permanent avoidance of a particular area, due to some sort of superstitious fear of an association with a preditor is conditioned then fear has to have been involved at some point. Finally an observation from a friend's dog that i recently encountered... The dog was mildly fearful of strangers. When she first met them she would bark at them and keep a certain distance away from them (about 4-6'). When approached she would run away, and had never shown any attempt to bite or attack anyone. If left alone she would gradually come over to the person and would show more and more interest in them until after a few hours she would actively seek attention from them. If this visitor left the house then she would bark at them even if they had only been gone for a moment (which puzzled and irritated the owner). When I went to visit this friend the dog barked at me on and off for the first ten minutes or so, reacting especially badly if I stood up. At this point the friend mentioned that the dog also had a mild fear of a red rubber grooming mitt that they had wanted to use on her but had now abandoned. If the dog saw the mitt she would run to at least 10' away from it, stop and bark at it. She might also bark at it. By chance the owner of the dog handed me the mitt, and the dog ran away. I shook the mitt a couple of times at arms length, held out to the side so that the dog was no longer looking or barking at me at all. The dog backed away to about 12' and barked a great deal as she left the room and stood watching from the kitchen. At no time did I appraoch the dog or chase her. Her basket and escape route were behind her and she was able to decide how close she was willing to come. After wobbling the glove around like this I put it down. Almost immediately the dog ran to me and sat between my legs asking for attention. I could now stand up and move around without any sign of fear or barking from the dog. the dog would now accept food from me, despite avoiding this before, and actively followed me around the house. As a test I went in and out of the house a few times over the course of about 4 hours, and at no time did the dog bark at me more than twice before running over to greet me. This appeared to be the same kind of contrast effects that are involved in 'joining up' with horses.. JB From: IN%"cbrady@four-h.purdue.edu" "Colleen Brady" 29-SEP-1999 11:17:55.64 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: Microchipping Livestock Hi, I know this isn't exactly a behavior question, but I thought some people = on the list might have some experience with microchipping livestock for = identification. My primary question is, where do you locate the chip for = beef, sheep and swine, that it is easily removed from the carcass, does = not cause loss of any salable product, and is permanent enough that people = can't remove chips if they would like to. Thanks for your input. Colleen Brady, Ph.D. Purdue University 1161 Agriculture Administration Bldg. W.Lafayette, IN 47907-1161 cbrady@four-h.purdue.edu From: IN%"meredith@farmline.com" "Michael Meredith" 29-SEP-1999 12:27:28.15 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group Posting" CC: Subj: RE: Scientific bias & Rupert Sheldrake >"Of course", no need to give any actual examples. Sorry, Jeff, I genuinely believed that everyone would have come across the examples of the scientific establishment rejecting people's work because it flew in the face of current dogma. May I recommend to you: "The Scientific Revolution" by Steven Shapin http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/ASIN/0226750213/pigdiseaseinform Shapin examines the themes (in modern science) of mechanism (the idea of nature as a machine), objectivism, methodology, impartiality and altruism. He also embraces the questions "What Was Known?"; "How Was It Known?" and "What Was the Knowledge For?" . >Beware the Columbus fallacy: "They laughed at Columbus and >he was right. They are laughing at Sheldrake, therefore he must be right". Jeff, I did not say that Rupert Sheldrake was "right" (I have no way of knowing at present), only that his work seemed to be carefully planned and sincerely presented. I was glad to have had an opportunity to have heard it from "the horse's mouth". In response to James' comment: >The problem with Rupert Sheldrake is that >he sets out to prove that paranormal phenomena exist BECAUSE such findings >would reinforce his controversial, quasi-religious theory of 'formative >causation' (first published in 1981). This inherent bias in his approach to >scientific investigation cannot help but raise valid suspicions, even if he >truly believes that his experimental procedures are impartial. As always, James, I appreciate your rigorous scientific approach and keen intellect. Are you really suggesting, James, that we should reject the work of everyone who formulates a hypothesis (or develops a theory) and then does further investigations? Personally I suspect that the totally impartial paper has yet to be written, and would like to see the standard scientific paper format (Introduction, Methods, Results, etc) extended to include a "background & subjective bias" section, which could include things like : "We did this work because we wanted to be involved in this subject area and thought the topic would attract funding" "The results are pretty dubious/useless, but we need to generate X publications per year" James, do I detect an "inherent bias" against spiritual connections in science? ;-) I am referring to: >would reinforce his controversial, quasi-religious theory of 'formative >causation' (first published in 1981). This inherent bias in his approach Steven Shapin's book draws attention to the close relationships that have existed at times in the past between religion and science. In fact, complete divorce of science from religion may be a quite recent (20th century) phenomenon. Even in the hallowed halls of the University of Cambridge, with which we are both familiar, I have often puzzled over the fact that science and religion co-exist (and have for hundreds of years) as such uneasy bedfellows. I am pleased that a few brave pioneers, such as Rupert Sheldrake, are daring to investigate areas which threaten the safely distant isolationist relationship between major areas of human belief and endeavour. Mike -----Original Message----- From: Jeff Rushen To: meredith@farmline.com ; Applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca Date: 29 September 1999 16:47 Subject: Re: Rupert Sheldrake >>> Michael Meredith 09/29 6:31 am Unfortunately he has had great difficulties in getting his work published or taken seriously by the scientific establishment. The latter has of course a long history of incidents of narrow-minded rejection and repression of radically new work >>>> "Of course", no need to give any actual examples. Beware the Columbus fallacy: "They laughed at Columbus and he was right. They are laughing at Sheldrake, therefore he must be right". "Science" (defined as the consensus opinion of scientists who know something about the subject) very occassionally makes some spectacular goofs (like refusing to believe continental drift). However, scientific consensus is far more often right than wrong (as witnessed by the existence of CD players that play CDs, bridges that stay standing, rockets that go up and come down in the right place, and drugs that kill bugs). If the scientific consensus is that Sheldrake is wrong, then it is far more likely that he is wrong than that he is right (although not 100%). There is nothing mysterious about science. It is just a mental attitude that where beliefs and reality conflict, it is better to change beliefs than to deny reality. For some reasons, this gives some people much difficulty. I find it a useful rule to be highly skeptical of anything that looks, sounds or smells like "wish fulfillment". Telephatic pets that save us the trouble of trying to figure out how to actually communicate with them conforms to too many human fantasies for my liking, and therefore seems to belong to the same category as sexual abduction by aliens, communication with a dead loved one, and a "just" God who zaps Slobodan Milosevich and all the other nasties who always seem to get away in real life. I am more impressed by people who make the intellectual effort and try to understand dogs as dogs, rather than trying to make them fulfill our fantasies. I have read a few second hand reports of Sheldrake's experiments. One claim of his is that dogs left at home can tell when their owners are about to return, and will start to wait at the door or stare out at the window at the appropriate time. An experiment to test this would need to ensure that the owner was not just coming home at the regular time, since dogs are probably quite capable of learning the average duration of absences. I understand Sheldrake does control for this in that he asks owners to come home at irregular times. Secondly, you would need to have an appropriate "control" situation. A dog left alone will make many visits to the door and windows, and as the day goes on and he becomes more lonely and hungry the number of visits will increase. Therefore you would expect to find more visits to the door or window around the time when the owner returns than earlier in the day. I do not believe that Sheldrake adequately controls for such factors (can anyone correct me?) Third, the person watching the dog would need to be blind as to the time of the return. Dogs will go to the door and window for many reasons. An observer who knows when the owner returns could unwittingly (or wittingly) dismiss visits at inappropriate times as due to "some other reason". I understand (from the report in the New Scientist) that this is a major problem with Sheldrake's experiments. An independent observer was unable to agree with Sheldrake on what defined a "visit" and how many visits actually occurred! Ideally the observer would not know when the owner actually returned. Jeff Rushen ************************************************** Jeffrey Rushen, Ph. D. Dairy and Swine Research and Development Centre, Agriculture and Agri-Food Canada, PO Box 90, 2000 Road 108 East, Lennoxville, Quebec, Canada J1M 1Z3 Ph. 1-819-5659174 ext 206 Fax. 1-819-5645507 Email. rushenj@em.agr.ca ************************************************** From: IN%"emilypk@bumail.bradley.edu" "Emily Patterson-Kane" 29-SEP-1999 13:13:52.13 To: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Ethology Group Posting" CC: Subj: RE: Scientific bias & Rupert Sheldrake > Sorry, Jeff, I genuinely believed that everyone would have come across the > examples of the scientific establishment rejecting people's work because > it > flew in the face of current dogma. > > I would have to concur that the Science is not the consensus of self-avowed scientists. It is the practice of changing ones theories to fit the available objective evidence. 'Scientists' as people are often guilty of letting the theory rule over the evidence. It is not the majority of any group that should necessarily be believed (although they will often be correct) it is that proportion of the group that are behaving 'scientifically' at the time. (Science as a behavior not an identity). Emily From: IN%"jwillard@turbonet.com" "Janice Willard" 29-SEP-1999 13:27:34.20 To: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" CC: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" Subj: RE: Livestock handling, cultural traditions At 01:12 PM 9/29/99 +1000, you wrote: > >Bud claims that it is possible to bring together lots of sub-groups of >animals (cattle/sheep/reindeer/bison/goats - he's done it with these species >and more) and drive them to an area of unfenced pasture and that they will >stay as a single mob (up to thousands of animals) and not stray from that >area until they run short of food. He can go back a few days later, drive >them to another spot and they'll stay there and so on. He also says he can >put them in a waterless area of rank grass and to drink the animals have to >cross good pasture. The animals will drink and return to and graze the rank >grass - not the palatable stuff. They will continue to do this until they >are driven elsewhere (or run out of food). > Perhaps a clue to this behavior would be to examine the research of Valerius Geist, who has spent a great deal of time examining the behavior of wild sheep herds around the globe. I have only read a few of his publications and I am hoping there is someone on this list who is more familiar with his work than am me who can help me out here. What Dr. Geist has been examining is the establishment and maintenance of home range traditions of ungulates which he refers to as cultural traditions. An example he describes: "Thus domestic goats (Capra hircus) gone feral on the Gulf Islands off southern British Columbia, cling tenaciously to the localities they have been abandoned in by their former owners and fail to exploit abundant, good habitat close by. They use only certain small patches of habitat, sometimes of low quality, while others, equally favorable or even superior, which are separated by only a few hundred yards of dense forest, are not visited. Here a "tradition" (for such is culture), based on the human owner's, but not the goat's best interests, was adopted by goats and transmitted faithfully for decade after decade of feral life.....In similar vein, one notices that mountain sheep (Ovis Dalli, Ovis canadensis) are quite incapable of extending to habitat patches that were once used, but became, somehow, "lost" to sheep. This culture, this tradition seems at first glance to be absurdly confining and non-adaptive.....Once the surprise over this has passed it is not to difficult to decipher that a tradition of habitat occupation confers enormous benefits to mountain sheep under natural conditions......"Culture" is no soft option that mountain sheep may or may not exercise, but a dominant factor central to mountain sheep ecology." (reference at bottom) So perhaps what is being seen here is not only a prey-preditor relationship but also an ethological ability of ungulates to establish home territory traditions. Mr. Williams may have stumbled onto an ethological way of contacting this communication system. >I don't believe this man is a charlatan - he has a big following and he and >others tell me it works (I want to see if I can get it to work for me too!), >but these claims just don't seem to make sense - I believed that animals >would choose palatable over non-palatable pasture when given the choice >(hence the reason paddocks are over-grazed in some areas and under-used in >others) and I thought animals given a hard time in yards would remember and >be resistant the next time. Perhaps the difficulty of understanding this with our current animal behavior paradigms points more to a failure of our models. I believe that there is some evidence to suggest that we are placing too great an emphisis on the conditioning models for explaining behavior instead of first looking at the biological and ethological models, which I feel may modify behavior more than we give them credit for. Culture and its biological origins: a view from ethology, epigenisis and design. Geist, V. 1994, in The Ethological roots of culture, R. A. Gardner et al. (eds). Kluwer Academic Publishers. Thanks for an interesting question. Janice Janice Willard, DVM, MS From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 29-SEP-1999 16:46:00.57 To: IN%"arioncr@mindspring.com" "'Chris Redenbach'", IN%"joseph.barber@zoo.ox.ac.uk", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling Chris I did, indeed, ask Bud why/how it works and all he could tell me was that it was because the animals "wanted to go there" and that they felt comfortable and safe there. When they ventured away they felt uncomfortable and unsafe and so returned to safety. This sort-of ties in with Robin's ideas. What amazes me is just how quickly Bud (or rather the Bud method) seems able to do this - just working with the animals for a few hours over a few days. I look forward to reading more ideas. Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Chris Redenbach [SMTP:arioncr@mindspring.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 12:07 AM > To: joseph.barber@zoo.ox.ac.uk; applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: RE: Livestock handling > > I suspect that there is more going on than just avoiding a predator. > > Bud may have figured out a way to "train" or "condition" a new and more > limited movement pattern in the group by the way he repeats the > application > and release of pressure. It seems plausible that pretty quickly, when the > whole group is responding, that there would be a temporary change in group > movement patterns once the new pattern has been adopted by the whole > group. > > This could be accomplished through the application and removal of pressure > from all angles around the group...a sort of herding at a sophisticated > level. > > I'm sorry, it is difficult to make this clear. > > If I am a member of a group and I personally and all of my group members > respond in a similar manner to pressure by moving. We then respond by > relaxing in a comfort zone when the pressure to move stops. If this > happens > over and over, whichever direction we turn, and we are all doing it, and > it > begins to become a very safe pattern, then we will tend to continue to do > it because it always leaves us feeling comfortable, until some other force > comes along with enough attraction or repulsion to get one and then > several > of us doing something else. The fact that we have all learned this in a > group at one time creates an internal reinforcement to conform to the > pattern. > > > Carol, didn't you ask Bud how it works? If so, what did he say? > > Chris Redenbach > > > > Chris > From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 29-SEP-1999 16:48:43.38 To: IN%"c.j.nicol@bristol.ac.uk" "'c.j.nicol@bristol.ac.uk'", IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Veterinary vacancy in welfare/ethics Hi Christine How are things? I have a question re. this scholarship - why must it be a veterinary graduate? Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: Christine Nicol [SMTP:c.j.nicol@bristol.ac.uk] > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 12:58 AM > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Veterinary vacancy in welfare/ethics > > > We are looking for a veterinary graduate to take up a scholarship in > farm animal welfare at the University of Bristol. The candidate must be > willing to apply for membership of the Royal College and would be > encouraged to train for the Certificate (or Diploma) in Animal Welfare > Ethics and Law. As part of this training you will be expected to > undertake a research project for which we will provide first-rate > supervision. You will work alongside a strong research group in applied > animal behaviour as well as gaining further clinical experience with an > expanding and innovative University farm animal practice. The person > appointed would be expected to do some teaching - particularly in > welfare-related areas and (with help) to organise a short course for > vet students on animal ethics. > > The post is available for a period of 3 years with a tax free stipend > of between 12500 and 14200 pounds. Shared single rent-free accomodation > may also be available. Closing date is 15 October 1999. > > Potential applicants are welcome to contact me. > ---------------------- > Christine Nicol > Division of Animal Health and Husbandry > Department of Clinical Veterinary Science > Langford House > Langford > North Somerset > BS40 5DU > Tel 0117 928 9473 > Fax 0117 928 9582 > Email: c.j.nicol@bristol.ac.uk From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 29-SEP-1999 17:01:47.98 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: RE: Livestock handling Bud does claim that the method he uses is "stress-free", but I'm sure you are correct that it is probably all relative. Certainly the videos he showed of the animals indicated that the animals were calm and relaxed - much more so when they were being moved by people not using "his method". Also, if you believe what he and others say, there is indirect evidence of reduced stress in the animals from their performance (live-weight gains etc.) and reduced veterinary treatment. I should point out that Bud suggests to try his method only if you think you have a 'problem'. If you are happy with the way in which your animals work and their performance, then just carry on doing what you do. However, if you think you have a problem then maybe you should try an alternative method. Carol > -----Original Message----- > From: JB [SMTP:rondog@btinternet.com] > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 3:06 AM > To: applied-ethology@skyway.usask.ca > Subject: Re: Livestock handling > > As far as I can see the best explanation is that provided by Robin. > > The method being used is similar to that currently in vogue for use with > horses. > > I agree that the explanation needs further refinements and testing. > > What i do object to is the implication that any of these methods avoid > fear > or cruelty, which is twaddle. > > There may be less fear involved in this method than others, but how can we > say? > > For example, certain 'humane' trainers in the States will chase horses for > many miles, harassing them until they are able to 'join up' with them. > > If the semi-permanent avoidance of a particular area, due to some sort of > superstitious fear of an association with a preditor is conditioned then > fear has to have been involved at some point. > > Finally an observation from a friend's dog that i recently encountered... > > The dog was mildly fearful of strangers. When she first met them she would > bark at them and keep a certain distance away from them (about 4-6'). When > approached she would run away, and had never shown any attempt to bite or > attack anyone. If left alone she would gradually come over to the person > and > would show more and more interest in them until after a few hours she > would > actively seek attention from them. > If this visitor left the house then she would bark at them even if they > had > only been gone for a moment (which puzzled and irritated the owner). > > When I went to visit this friend the dog barked at me on and off for the > first ten minutes or so, reacting especially badly if I stood up. > > At this point the friend mentioned that the dog also had a mild fear of a > red rubber grooming mitt that they had wanted to use on her but had now > abandoned. If the dog saw the mitt she would run to at least 10' away from > it, stop and bark at it. She might also bark at it. > > By chance the owner of the dog handed me the mitt, and the dog ran away. I > shook the mitt a couple of times at arms length, held out to the side so > that the dog was no longer looking or barking at me at all. The dog backed > away to about 12' and barked a great deal as she left the room and stood > watching from the kitchen. > At no time did I appraoch the dog or chase her. Her basket and escape > route > were behind her and she was able to decide how close she was willing to > come. > > After wobbling the glove around like this I put it down. > > Almost immediately the dog ran to me and sat between my legs asking for > attention. > I could now stand up and move around without any sign of fear or barking > from the dog. > the dog would now accept food from me, despite avoiding this before, and > actively followed me around the house. > > As a test I went in and out of the house a few times over the course of > about 4 hours, and at no time did the dog bark at me more than twice > before > running over to greet me. > > This appeared to be the same kind of contrast effects that are involved in > 'joining up' with horses.. > > JB > > > > From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 29-SEP-1999 17:14:52.06 To: IN%"cbrady@four-h.purdue.edu" "'Colleen Brady'", IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" CC: Subj: RE: Microchipping Livestock Colleen There is a lot of work going on in Australia with individually identifying livestock electronically. Microchips in the form of implants were 'written-off' some years ago as they were found to 'migrate' (implanted in the ear) and there was the fear that they could end up in a piece of meat - not very acceptable to the consumer! The way things are going now is with a bolus that sits in the rumen. The loss seems to be low, but the main constraint is the distance from which they can be read - just a few metres. I'm not sure where they are up to now, but if you want more details get in touch and I'll see what I can find out - or put you in touch with somebody who's involved in the work. Carol Petherick > -----Original Message----- > From: Colleen Brady [SMTP:cbrady@four-h.purdue.edu] > Sent: Thursday, September 30, 1999 2:14 AM > To: Applied Ethology > Subject: Microchipping Livestock > > Hi, > > I know this isn't exactly a behavior question, but I thought some people > on the list might have some experience with microchipping livestock for > identification. My primary question is, where do you locate the chip for > beef, sheep and swine, that it is easily removed from the carcass, does > not cause loss of any salable product, and is permanent enough that people > can't remove chips if they would like to. Thanks for your input. > > > Colleen Brady, Ph.D. > Purdue University > 1161 Agriculture Administration Bldg. > W.Lafayette, IN 47907-1161 > cbrady@four-h.purdue.edu > > From: IN%"PetherC@prose.dpi.qld.gov.au" "Petherick, Carol (TBC)" 29-SEP-1999 21:38:50.59 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "'ethology'" CC: Subj: Bud Williams Livestock Handling Technique All I've just heard from a colleague in NZ that Temple Grandin has information about this and the way she thinks it operates on her home page. Go to www.grandin.com then click on Behaviour of the various species during handling, then Recommended basic principles, then Bud Williams' technique. There is also a bit that discusses whether acting like a predator is low stress. Take a look - there's lots of other info there if you're interested in this kind of thing. Carol "The greatness of a nation and its moral progress can be judged by the way its animals are treated." Mahatma Gandhi Carol Petherick Senior Scientist (Animal Behaviour and Welfare) Queensland Beef Industry Institute Tropical Beef Centre PO Box 5545 Central Qld Mail Centre Rockhampton Qld 4702 Australia email: petherc@dpi.qld.gov.au tel: (0)7 4923 8200 fax: (0)7 4923 8222 From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 30-SEP-1999 02:57:05.37 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Rupert Sheldrake and science Dear all, I very much agree with Jeff in that the methods are of great importance for the testing hypothesis, but I am a bit uneasy about the connection between the following two statements: >> Unfortunately he has had great difficulties in getting his work >> published ... > ... If the scientific > consensus is that Sheldrake is wrong, then it is far more likely > that he is wrong than that he is right (although not 100%). Is it really scientific consensus which determines whether work gets published, or is it the judgement of, in general, two referees and an editor? This system seems to work really well most of the time, but if you think that ulcers are caused by bacterial infection, or that it is possible to cross the Pacific Ocean in a balsa boat, then you have to be very lucky or foolishly brave to get your thoughts published. Not everything that sounds like utter madness is necessarily right, but I sometimes wonder how many ideas are out there that I never hear about because they don't get published. And then I wish that I was given the opportunity to read these things and to decide for myself. Just a thought. Hans Dr Hans Erhard Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Tel.: 01224 - 318611 Fax.: 01224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"robin@coape.win-uk.net" "Robin Walker" 30-SEP-1999 04:03:51.88 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology Network (E-mail)" CC: Subj: Three cheers for Occam! Carol and All, Temple tops it for me. Occam, Hobbes, Hebb helped. Good debate.. Robin "I wish someone would call me "sir" just once without adding "you are creating a scene"! Homer Simpson From: IN%"appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk" "appleby" 30-SEP-1999 05:02:15.84 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Paddle for the shore! Hello James. In article , James Serpell writes >Some further clarification on David Appleby's statement that: > >>The paper referred to as "this" discusses a pilot study for the study >>discussed in the paper referred to as "the other". > >This is grossly misleading. It was an independent clinical trial. It was >only a pilot in the sense that it preceded the other trials. I apologise if I have appeared to be misleading. This would never be my intention. It was the fact that this trial preceded the latter trial that I was referring to. It had been but to me by the sponsors that the second trial was, in effect, the next stage. > >>The inclusion and exclusion criteria applied to the second study ("the >>other" paper) made the sample tested more specific than. > >David needs to be more explicit than this. In what way was it more specific? > In the second trial the inclusion exclusion criteria required that all the animals were exhibiting symptoms of hyper attachment as well as problem behaviours when separated. Attachment was an aspect of behaviour that was quantified in the first trial and was subsequently a necessary requirement for the second. All dogs had to: Usually follow the owner about the house and try to maintain physical contact with him/her. Become distressed with increasing distance of separation from the owner Become distressed when the owner prepares to leave and greet him/her excessively on their return. These criteria were employed to remove those dogs that displayed separation problems for reasons other than hyper attachment. >>Thirdly, the behavioural treatment for the study referred to in "this" >>paper was a four stage programme while the behaviour programme for the >>study reported in "the other" paper was one stage. > >Again, David should explain the relevance/importance of this difference, >since it seems to imply some criticism of the Podberscek et al. study >design. Not at all. The behavioural treatment plan for the first trial was one that is in keeping with my normal working practice. It has some flexibility that allows for individual differences and "weans" the dog off of its attachment to the owner. This approach is based on the assumption that changing the relationship too quickly may result in an increase in stress rather than a reduction. This programme also, eventually, accustoms the dog to accept some periods of separation from the owners when they are at home. As such, in my opinion, the behaviour treatment protocol in the first trial is a better than the treatment protocol used for the second trial. This may have made a difference to the relative efficacy of behaviour modification when the results of the two trials are compared with each other. >___________________________________________________________________ >Assoc. Prof. of Humane Ethics & Animal Welfare, >Director, Center for the Interaction of Animals & Society, >Dept. of Clinical Studies, >School of Veterinary Medicine, >University of Pennsylvania, Tel: (215) 898-1004 >3900 Delancey Street, Fax: (215) 573-6050 >Philadelphia, PA 19104-6010, USA serpell@vet.upenn.edu >http://www.vet.upenn.edu/cias/ > > > > > Best wishes. David ---------------------------------------- Name:David Appleby Address:The Pet Behaviour Centre, Upper street, Defford, Worcestershire. WR8 9AB.England. Phone:+44(0)1386 750615 Fax:+44(0)1386 750743 E-mail:appleby@petbcent.demon.co.uk WWW: http://www.petbcent.demon.co.uk ---------------------------------------- From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 30-SEP-1999 05:30:06.00 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Rupert Sheldrake and science At 09:52 AM 09/30/1999 +0000, Hans Erhard wrote: >Dear all, >Not everything that sounds like utter madness is necessarily right, >but I sometimes wonder how many ideas are out there that I never hear >about because they don't get published. And then I wish that I was >given the opportunity to read these things and to decide for myself. > >Just a thought. > >Hans > > >Dr Hans Erhard If you want to read about all the stuff that people believe that most scientists think is utter nonsense, try the Globe, or any of the papers you can get here in the US at the checkout counters of the supermarkets. I'm sure that you have them in the UK. There you can see for yourself that Elvis is still alive, that Nostradamus was correct, and that dogs can read minds. There was a TV show about dogs who can tell when you are coming home. There was a TV camera in the persons home, with the woman's parents, while the woman went with a member of the staff out for the day. All camera had time setting on the screen, so we could see that they were being truthful. As she moved around London, I think it was, the camera would show you what the dog was doing. When the staff person said: let's go home now, and they started for home, the dog got up and went to the window. I spoke to somebody involved with the camera in the home. He said that the dog went to the window and sat and looked every half hour or so, but they only showed it when the woman was on the way home. They just left out the other dozen times the dog went to the window. I wish my dog could read my mind. Then maybe she would understand how important some things are to me. But as I don't believe in ESP for people, I find it hard to believe in for dogs. Vivian Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk" "Hans Erhard" 30-SEP-1999 06:01:38.22 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Rupert Sheldrake and science Dear Vivian, Thanks for recommending an alternative type of journal. I did read them from time to time when I was in the US, and I must admit that I thoroughly enjoyed some of the stories. One of my favourites was the vacuum cleaner that was obsessed by the spirit of the dead mother-in-law. It switched itself on every day to clean to house of a poor woman, whose tidiness had apparently not been to her mother-in-law's liking. Two other stories were about proof for reincarnation. One was about a baby born with a gold tooth, the other one about two babies (either twins, or one baby with two heads, I can't remember), one of whom spoke Latin, the other one Ancient Greek. Confronted with this sort of evidence, can you still have doubts? ;-) But that's not really the sort of stuff I was writing about. If you give me a scientific paper which describes in the methods that they only looked at the dog at the moment the owner came home, I can see for myself that that's not good enough (this method does not work if all you ever read is the abstract). But if it never gets published, I never get the chance to do that (unless I happen to know a member of the camera crew). And then I have to rely on dodgy journals, TV reports and so on, to make up my mind. What's wrong with someone publishing a paper which may have flaws in the experimental set-up and someone else attaching a note to that paper explaining the flaws? That way, the debate would be public, and we could all join and see which side has the better arguments. Hans Vivian Bregman wrote: > If you want to read about all the stuff that people believe that most > scientists think is utter nonsense, try the Globe, or any of the papers you > can get here in the US at the checkout counters of the supermarkets. > > I'm sure that you have them in the UK. > > There you can see for yourself that Elvis is still alive, that Nostradamus > was correct, and that dogs can read minds. > > There was a TV show about dogs who can tell when you are coming home. > There was a TV camera in the persons home, with the woman's parents, while > the woman went with a member of the staff out for the day. All camera had > time setting on the screen, so we could see that they were being truthful. > As she moved around London, I think it was, the camera would show you what > the dog was doing. > When the staff person said: let's go home now, and they started for home, > the dog got up and went to the window. > > I spoke to somebody involved with the camera in the home. > He said that the dog went to the window and sat and looked every half hour > or so, but they only showed it when the woman was on the way home. They > just left out the other dozen times the dog went to the window. > > I wish my dog could read my mind. > Then maybe she would understand how important some things are to me. > But as I don't believe in ESP for people, I find it hard to believe in for > dogs. > > Vivian > > > Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- > interested in everything to do with science, > especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net > > ********************************************* Dr Hans Erhard Macaulay Land Use Research Institute Craigiebuckler Aberdeen AB15 8QH Tel.: +44 (0)1224 - 318611 Fax.: +44 (0)1224 - 311556 email: h.erhard@mluri.sari.ac.uk From: IN%"bregman@interactive.net" "VIVIAN BREGMAN" 30-SEP-1999 06:19:05.52 To: IN%"applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" CC: Subj: RE: Rupert Sheldrake and science At 12:57 PM 09/30/1999 +0000, Hans Erhard wrote: > >But that's not really the sort of stuff I was writing about. If you >give me a scientific paper which describes in the methods that they >only looked at the dog at the moment the owner came home, I can see >for myself that that's not good enough (this method does not work if >all you ever read is the abstract). But if it never gets published, >I never get the chance to do that (unless I happen to know a member >of the camera crew). And then I have to rely on dodgy journals, TV >reports and so on, to make up my mind. What's wrong with someone >publishing a paper which may have flaws in the experimental set-up >and someone else attaching a note to that paper explaining the flaws? > That way, the debate would be public, and we could all join and see >which side has the better arguments. > >Hans I agree that there should be such a journal. However, who would put it out?? Should it be published, however, and be about animal behavior, I would be interested in subscribing. Vivian agreeing with you...... Vivian Bregman -- dog trainer for forty years -- interested in everything to do with science, especially Biology --- vbregman@interactive.net From: IN%"chris.sherwin@bristol.ac.uk" 30-SEP-1999 06:49:32.47 To: IN%"cbrady@four-h.purdue.edu" "Colleen Brady" CC: IN%"Applied-ethology@sask.usask.ca" "Applied Ethology" Subj: RE: Microchipping Livestock Dear Colleen, Sometime ago I was involved in a project in Australia in which I looked at the biological constraints of implantable forms of identification for animals. As pointed out earlier by Carol Petherick, one of the major concerns with implants is their ability to disappear from the site of injection only to appear (sometimes to drop out!) somewhere else in the body. This can make it difficult to register the number of the animal quickly (because you don't know where the implant has moved to) and makes automated identification for, e.g. slaughter lines, weighing, highly problematic. If used in livestock, from the human welfare point of view, a migrating implant is highly undesirable. The ear is a favoured place for ease of handling, removal at slaughter and rapid recording, but the thin epidermis on this organ means it is susceptible to irritation from the device. I am aware that the companies which make these devices have put much effort into developing bio-materials which cause the body tissues to adhere to the implant, rather than encapsulating it (which can lead to the migration), but I have not seen recent, independent data on the success of these materials. You might also want to be aware of the lengths that people will go to implant/remove these from valuable animals. Exotic birds are often electronically tagged in the breast muscle, but because the tags are easily removed after a bird has been stolen, some people have resorted to placing these within a bone - without anaesthetic...which is almost certainly very painful for the bird. Regards, Chris were often being do not cause On Wed, 29 Sep 1999 12:13:59 -0400 Colleen Brady wrote: > Hi, > > I know this isn't exactly a behavior question, but I > thought some people on the list might have some experience > with microchipping livestock for identification. My primary > question is, where do you locate the chip for beef, sheep > and swine, that it is easily removed from the carcass, does > not cause loss of any salable product, and is permanent > enough that people can't remove chips if they would like > to. Thanks for your input. > > > Colleen Brady, Ph.D. > Purdue University > 1161 Agriculture Administration Bldg. > W.Lafayette, IN 47907-1161 > cbrady@four-h.purdue.edu > > > ---------------------- Chris Sherwin Division of Animal Health and Husbandry University of Bristol Langford House Langford Bristol BS40 5DU Phone: (0117) 928 9486 Fax: (0117) 928 9582 E-mail chris.sherwin@bris.ac.uk